WEBVTT - Ex-FEMA Head Says Trump's Done Everything Right on Harvey So Far 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.880 Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene with 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.520 David Gura. Daily we bring you insight from the best 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:22.239 of economics, finance, investment, and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:27.000 on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot Com, and of course, 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:33.840 on the Bloomberg. David Gurra in New York, Francy Lapwa 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.000 in London. The President saying he's going to travel to 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.199 Texas tomorrow to inspect what's continue to happen there, the 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.760 storm continuing to range over Houston many parts of the 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:43.600 state of Texas. He's gonna head to St. Louis a 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.400 little later this week as well to talk about taxi form. 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:48.159 A lot of politics and policy to talk about with 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.159 the conversation. Mark Walker who joins us here in a 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.760 Bloomberg eleven three studios in New York. He's a Republican 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.200 who represents the sixth district in North Carolina. He's the 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.400 head of the Republican Study Committee as well. Let's start 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.800 with with the budget, with all the obligations to Congress 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.280 faces when they get back here in September. I have 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:06.080 to pass a funding bill, have to do something with 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.200 with the death ceiling. Who are you listening to? Who 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:10.200 should we be listening to in leadership for guidance on 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.600 what's going to happen and when? Well, I believe, first 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.240 of all, I want to commend Chairwoman Dyeing Black and 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:20.560 her work on the Budget Committee. Uh, it's rare. I 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:22.679 believe that you have to go back ten years where 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.679 you had a unanimous Republican support on a budget and 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:29.120 there members across the board, including Freedom Caucus members in there. 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.720 So I know she worked weekends, stayed on the phone, 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.680 But to pass that out of Budget Committee, I believe 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:39.720 deserves a very quick vote and we're certainly encouraging leadership 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:41.920 to get it to the House floor. One of the 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.720 things that we feel very impressed about it is over 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.000 the next ten years, it does take an honest look 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.800 and reform close to two hundred billion dollars of some 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.880 specifically some of the Medicaid. Uh. We we've seen the 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.279 current healthcare budget. As we move forward, as another forty 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.480 million Americans to the Medicaid roles over that ten years, 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.800 it's certainly something that we can't afford. And and I 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:04.840 will tell you as a former pastor, I don't believe 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.840 it we're doing a service to people by continuing to 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.080 create a spirit of enablement as opposed to maybe an 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.600 incentive to be able to continue to pull yourselves different 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.480 levels out of out of poverty. So when it comes 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.960 to who we're listening to, we're listening to cheerwoman Black, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:20.959 but we're also listening to the leadership as well. Do 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.840 people talk about regular order on Capitol Hill anymore? Have 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.160 we gotten used to this process of continuing resolution after 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.320 continuing resolutions? UH? Short term funding bill after short term 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.280 funding bill? And and do you think we're gonna get 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:32.880 back to a point where we see a regularity of 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.200 the budget process in Washington again? Well, being there in 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.839 my second term, there's a legend that a regular order 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.280 once existed. Yet, but we're I don't I don't know 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:41.960 how much of it. We We talked a lot about it, 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.120 but it's probably more rhetoric than anything else. And there 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.800 is some guys that are the purest traditionists. As far 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.519 as trying to get back to it, I believe there's 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.639 good measure and good reasoning why we should be focusing 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.960 on it. However, we live in such interesting days back 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:59.520 and forth with administration different caucuses. Uh, different leadership that 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.200 that's up even since I've been there. So it's all 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.560 over the map right now. On the issue of tax reform, 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:06.400 We've gotten a piece of paper from the White House. 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:07.959 A few months later, we got two pieces of paper 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:09.280 from the White House. We know that the border just 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.920 a tax is no longer on the table. What's your 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.079 sense of the timetable here for for tax reform? And 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:16.600 is it a belief of yours that we need to 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.960 get tax reforms? It's deficit neutral if I can get 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.440 away from my talking points, I believe there is legitimate, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.440 legitimate hope that this is something we can get across 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.560 the board. Uh. We use the word hopeful and optimistic 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.240 and all the different things that we talked about. But 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:31.919 from what I'm seeing in the work with Kevin Brady 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.680 and ways and means um he and Speaker run obviously, 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.520 as you just mentioned, we're very keen and very hopeful 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.720 that they can get this thing through with a Board 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:42.920 of Adjustment to tax because of what it would do 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.880 to the growth immediately. Uh, that is something that we're 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:47.760 going to have to look as for as how we 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.680 do find that money somewhere else. But as far as 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.640 when it comes to legitimate tax reform the first time 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.680 in thirty woidant years, I believe there's some sign off 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.080 on from the White House, both with a Senate and 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.240 with a House. So that is something that we can 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:03.200 never get to on the same page with health care. 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.560 Every time this piece moved a little bit, then it 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.160 then it calls the equal and opposite reaction somewhere else. 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.360 But I believe when it comes to tax reform, without 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.120 putting a hard timeline, I would be very surprised if 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.720 we didn't have this pass before Thanksgiving. UM Congressman, what 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.799 does it mean being a Republican a two thousand and seventeen? 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:21.960 Is it more frustrating now than it was a year ago? 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.479 I believe it is. I'm one that's relatively new to 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.240 the political scene, and I was a pastor for nearly 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:30.680 eighteen years and work in business and finance right out 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.159 of school for about five or six years. But in 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:35.000 the two and a half years three years that I've 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.680 been here in in the political scene, uh, my job 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:40.520 is still continue to put a lot of attention, a 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.159 lot of energy into relationships. I'm very proud that I 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.440 represent UM all of our communities, I represent the largest 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.159 historical black college and university and in all of the 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.400 country in my district, and making sure that Republicans are 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.680 still talking about things that are important to us long 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.120 term when it comes to fiscal but also understand there's 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.760 there's a heart component of this. Uh. As far as 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.200 how we message, I've learned that Republicans are pretty notorious. 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.240 They have a good objective long term, I believe, but 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:10.279 sometimes fumble in and trying to express why that's important 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.679 to all of our communities and not just to select few. 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.200 How's our president doing? How's your president doing? President Trump? UM? 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.479 I believe that overall I would give marks UM that 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.760 are positive because of how much that we've been able 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.400 to get done in the regulatory component, obviously had it 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.839 has impacted the markets. Uh. Now that we were nine 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:31.720 months almost into this at ten if you want to 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.760 count since the inauguration, but moving into month and or 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.680 nine since um since January. Uh, there are things I 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.960 feel like that continue to be improved. I remember speaking 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.400 to him not too long ago and and and him remarking, hey, listen, 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.880 I'm still I'm still learning this. Uh. You know, I 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.880 thought I was not one that had a huge pedigree 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:52.880 of two and a half years. This is something that's 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.760 certainly he has, uh, certainly more room to grow, more 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.280 room to learn. UM, and I understand from a leadership component, 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.120 when you been someone that really hasn't been accountable to 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.920 anyone else is specifically in your line, there's there was 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.120 no board. He answered to uh in learning now that 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.279 there are three equal branches and trying to find the 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.560 balance and all that, as well as trying to motivate 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.679 people to pursue or to to complete what he feels 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.440 like is an agenda that American people elected him to accomplish. 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:20.880 All of that has been kind of a working order. 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.840 Have we arrived We have not. But if you look 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.520 at people like Taylorson and Madis and Gorst's there are 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.680 some winds here that I believe we can celebrate Gods 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:29.599 but thank you so much of the time, and they 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.960 appreciate that. Joining us here on Blombergradi and Blomberg Television 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:33.840 as well as Corns and Mark Walker, who represents the 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.200 sixth district in North Carolina, the chair of the Republican 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.280 Study Committee here on Bloomberg Surveillance on Bloombergradio, David Garray 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.960 in New York. Francy and Lapwa in London. This is 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:58.880 Bloomberg Warn. David Gray in New York, Francy Lackwoy in London. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.080 Tom Keene is offten. This is Bloomberg Surveillance on Bloomberg Radio. 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.479 We continue, of course, to monitor the storm bearing down 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.880 on Texas, on Houston in particular. That's Tropical Storm Harvey, 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.680 downgraded from hurricane status. He's still pouring a ton of 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.480 rain on that city. Flooding a huge issue there, and 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.840 we'll have updates on the situation there throughout the morning. 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.560 Looking at today's agenda, the President schedule to deliver a 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.320 joint press conference with the President of Finland a little 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.440 bit later today, that's at four twenty. Wall Street Time 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:26.120 will have coverage of that for you here right here 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.840 on Bloomberg Radio. Well, there's a lot of news on 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.720 Friday afternoon, of course, as the hurricane approached the Gulf coast. 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.160 Also the President electing to part in the former sheriff 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.160 of Maricopa County in Arizona, controversial Sheriff Joe R. Peo, 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:41.840 and the President wrote in a statement on the heels 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.800 of that decision, he's now Joe or Peo now eighty 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.640 five years old and after more than fifty years of 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.160 admirable service to our nation, he is a worthy candidate 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.920 for a presidential parton. Somebody who thinks differently about this 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:54.880 is no filment. He's a professor of law at Harvard 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.480 Law School, a columnist for Bloomberg View as well. He's 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.600 written about this. He wrote about this in advance of 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:01.560 that and saying if the president were to do that, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.800 it could be an impeachable offense. In his words, no 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:06.800 Felton joins us now on our phone lines, Noah Joe 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:11.080 Pio convicted of contempt of court by Judge Susan Bolton, explain, 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.320 you know what what what he's being pardoned from. I 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:17.840 think that's key here, It is absolutely key. The background 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.600 here is that UM a group of citizens sued our 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:27.880 Pio and the Maricopa County Sheriff's office for unconstitutionally detaining 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:32.160 I think people mostly Latinos, on suspicion that they were 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:37.080 undocumented and then holding them indefinitely in prison. And a 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.000 court held that was unconstitutional, that it violated the basic 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.360 rights of the people who were being detained, and the 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:46.080 court ordered our Pio and the office to stop doing it. 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.520 Our pile refused to stop doing it, and he told 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:51.880 his staff, We're going to keep on doing exactly what 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.040 we've been doing. First he was held in civil contempt 0:08:55.080 --> 0:09:00.000 and then the Justice Department prosecuted him for criminal contempt um, 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.880 which is pretty unusual, and he was found guilty and 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.440 sentenced to a fairly symbolic sentence of about six months. 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.240 You write about the effect that this could have, this 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.240 pardon could have on the integrity of the legal system. 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.719 Just explain what you mean by that. The President, by 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.240 doing this calls into questions sort of the strictures of 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.080 our legal system in this country and your estimation. Yeah, well, 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.960 here's the thing. It's pretty rare for a sworn law 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.840 enforcement official to be ordered by a court to do 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.120 something and to flat out say no, I'm not going 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.680 to do it. It's even more rare when the thing 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.160 that the law enforcement official has done is to break 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.800 the constitution. And it's even rare for the person than 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.040 to be convicted by the courts, specifically at defying a 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:46.520 court order. When the President pardoned someone under these conditions, 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:50.080 what he's basically communicating is that it was fine for 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.640 law enforcements to ignore what the courts told him to do, 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:56.600 and that it was fine for him to violate the 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.960 Constitution itself. So that's a basic challenge to the rule 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.360 of law. It's saying that a law enforceani can ignore 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.920 the law, ignore the power of the courts to say 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.000 what the law is, and do whatever he wants, including 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:14.840 violence the constitutional rights of ordinary people. And that's pretty stunning. Frankly, 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.560 It's pretty different in a situation where someone is pardoned 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.480 for committing a crime, because in this instance, the problem 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.319 is not so much that what our pio did is 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.640 against the laws, that it was in direct violation of 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.400 what a judge told him the constitution required. But no, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:33.160 he suggests this is an impeachable offense. But then I thought, 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:37.199 the president pardon who he wanted. Great question. The bottom 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.240 line is this. It's true that the presidents can pardon 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.880 whomever he chooses to parting, probably himself excluded in the 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.440 sense that once the pardon is issued, our Pio can't 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.080 go to jail. I mean the pardon worked in that sense. 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.120 It doesn't mean that the president is free of any 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.440 sanction for what he's done. If the president abuses his 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.719 power by partnering people, let's say, who were close to him, 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.199 or to serve his own interests, or in this instance, 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:10.400 to basically fundamentally contravene the idea the constitution binds law 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.280 enforcement officials. The thing that we can do about that 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.880 is to invoke the impeachment power. And it's not just 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:21.599 me who's saying that. Uh. In When they were ratifying 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.480 the Constitution of the United States at the Virginia Ratifying Convention, 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.160 James Madison, who was the lead draft into the Constitution, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.440 he was asked specifically about the part in power. The 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.160 people were saying, well, we shouldn't have a part in 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.400 power in the constitution. Is a bad idea. What if 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:38.839 the president abuses the part in power? Madison said, essentially, well, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.240 the president uses the part in power, you can impeach him. 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.520 That's the power you have available to you. So the 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.000 idea here is that the part in power, it's not 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.000 it's absolute in the sense the president can do it 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.920 if he wants to, but it's not outside the bounds 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.880 of sanction. And the sanction that's available is impeachment. Right, 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:56.400 you have to refresh my memory because it's been a 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.720 couple of years that I haven't done constitution a law. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:00.839 This is not the abuse of power our article, right, 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.680 this is you're talking about something else. No, Well, in 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.040 the constitution um, a president can be impeached for what 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:12.480 are called high crimes and misdemeanors. But I tradition, this 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.000 was very clear of the founders. High crimes and misdemeanors 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.559 does not mean breaking a statute, doesn't mean breaking a 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.559 law only it would include that, But it also means 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:26.000 any abuse of the presidential power, and that is part 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.240 of the impeachment structure. And it's been the case when 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.920 previous presidents have been impeached that Congress has not restricted 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.360 itself to presidential violation of a written statute. They've also 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.880 gone after the president for what they considered abuses of power. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.240 So abuse of power is a sort of general catch 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.760 all phrase that I'm using to capture the idea of 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.000 high crimes and misdemeanors, and that would cover impeachment. There's 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:47.640 plenty of things the president can do that would deserve 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.120 impeachment that don't violate a specific law that's on the books, 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.040 but that obviously subvert the structure of the Constitution and 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:56.560 subvert the rule of law, no fel What does this, 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.320 this story, this case tell us about the relationship between 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.480 the federal government in the States government. Just reading between 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.360 the lines here and the statement from the White House, 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.640 and from what I've read of the former sheriff, it 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:08.640 seems like there are a lot of people who think 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.000 that he was simply taking a taking the rule of 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.319 law into his own hand. Rightfully, that the federal government 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:15.760 wasn't doing what it needed to do when it comes 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.800 to protecting the federal the border with Mexico. He was 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.040 doing that. But what does this say about the state 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.400 of that relationship between states and the US federal government. Well, 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:29.560 it's pretty badly afraid. Um. In this instance, a state 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.600 of elected official was violating the Constitution. Now, he may 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.560 have been doing it because he thought that the federal 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.440 government needed to do more, but that the federal court 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:42.840 which convicted him and which ordered him not to do 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.000 what he was doing, believe that he had overstepped his bound. 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.720 If he was just enforcing federal law, he would not 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.160 have been convicted. Our pile would not have been convicted 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.760 of contempt of court. This is not about him acting 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.199 in a way that the federal court didn't want to 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.400 state official that this was about our pio acting in 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.200 a way that no official connect under the constitution. Um. 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.520 It's also true that in principle our Pio could still 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.960 be charged under state law or convective contempts under state law, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.400 and if that happens, the President would not actually have 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.280 been able to pardon him at all. So this is 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.360 exact an instance of the president intervening as is his 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.000 power to do over the federal courts. And the federal 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.080 courts we're doing what they're empowered to do by the 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.720 fourteen Amendment of the Constitution, namely, supervised state officials and 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.880 make sure they're not violating the Constitution under color of law, 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.360 which is exactly what our pile was doing. No, fellmen, 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.560 what does this tell you about this president's attitude toward 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.720 presidential pardons. I can look back at all of the 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.960 pardons that President Obama made, a lot of them centered 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.560 on drug cases in particular. Um, there are a lot 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.080 of people here wondering a sort of what lessons we 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.680 can draw from this particular pardon, how it might be 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.080 used to say in the Russian investigation, how the president 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.000 might use his power of pardon, and going forward, what 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:58.520 lessons can you draw. Well, I'm warious of the interpretation 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:00.760 that says that this is some sort of a message 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:05.280 with specifically with respect to the Russian investigation. Um. What 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.680 I think is very clear here is that the president 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.200 ignored the usual process that other presidents have in the 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.000 past gone through before they chose to make a pardon. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.080 There's a special part in office and the partner of justice. 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.880 It was ignored here. Ordinarily, appeals have to be exhausted. 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.120 That was not the case here. Ordinarily it just goes 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.480 to a complex and complete vetting process before any pardon 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.560 is issued. I'm not saying that every past part in 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.000 is one that I would agree with, but in this instance, 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.600 the president circumvented those usual processutes. It also happened early 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:39.840 in his term rather than late in his term, a 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.560 way of saying, essentially, I don't care what people think 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.480 about this. I'm going to do it on my own. 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.320 So if nothing else, this communicates the president thinks that 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.480 it's within his authority and that he conclearely get away 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.040 with partnering people whenever he wants, and probably however he 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.840 wants to suggests the willingness to be quick with the 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.960 partning power, but no, so he's advising the president actually 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.160 on all matters of law and constitutional powers. Are they 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.840 ill advising him or is the President just ignoring it? Well, 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.120 in this instance, Um, the usual process that would have 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.680 been created to the Department of Justice through the Partner Office, 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.920 we've been told was not followed at all. So the 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.800 strong suggestion is that the procedures that are ordinarily in 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.280 place to advise the president simply were ignored and we're 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.680 not followed. Often the White House Council's office would also 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.440 be involved in the pardon process, and we haven't been 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.880 told publicly whether in fact the White House Council was 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.800 involved in this process or not. Now again, constitutionally, the 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.000 president doesn't have to listen to anybody. He can pardon 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.440 whomever he chooses to pardon. Um. But those procedures have 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.240 been put in place by previous administrations with the goal 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:47.000 of rationalizing the process and not making a pardon look 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.040 like it violates the basic principle of legality, which I 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.760 think this pardon does look like. David Guray in New York, 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.240 Francy Laqua in London, Tom Keen is off to damn 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.560 looking at news out of Berkeley, California. Big protests yesterday 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.480 there in Martin Luther King Jr. Civic Center Park, a 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:06.600 big confrontation between antifa and anti fascist anarchist protesters and 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:08.840 others who were gathered there. Around two thousand people were 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.320 gathered in that park yesterday, and I just wanted to 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.399 bring in our our guests. No Felton, who's a law 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.000 professor at Harvard Law, of course, columns from Bloomberview to 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:17.960 talk a bit about a free speech and light of 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:19.520 the protests that we've seen here, in light of the 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:21.680 protests from both sides that we've seen here over these 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:25.280 last few weeks, of course, most paramount being in Charlessville. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.240 When you look at history and how we deal with 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:31.679 free speech, no matter how how violent is what have 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:35.120 you been thinking about over these last few weeks now, Well, 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.600 I think there's a whole bunch of really fascinating and 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.120 subtle issues. The most important one is that we need 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.280 to keep on distinguishing two different things. We need to 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.520 distinguished peaceful protests, which is protected by the First Amendment 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.880 and should be protected by the First Amendment, no matter 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:55.280 how vile the content is, from violent incitement, which is 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.240 when you take an action that you know is likely 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.640 to cause an imminence incitement to violence, and is actually 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.320 causing that, not just that you know it's going to 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.080 cause that, but it isn't that going to cause that. 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.679 The police have every right to prevent the ladder from happening. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:11.920 So if there are a group that are confronting each other, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.639 and there are people trying to provoke violence, then the 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.880 police are wholly within their rights, and indeed, I would 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.640 say their responsibilities to stand in between and to separate 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.840 people and to make sure that violence doesn't break out. 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.159 We don't really think about it this way, but without 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.040 the police protecting us against the violence, the free speech 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.159 right that we have becomes pretty empty. And so we 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.439 actually need both components. We need the order on the 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.200 streets in ordering sure that our free speech rights are protected. 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:40.479 It strikes strikes me as we talk about this, as 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.239 we talk about the Ropio case as well, the the 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:44.640 a c l U is at the center of both 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:46.480 of these these stories. Of course, the a c l 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.119 U has said it's now going to represent hate groups 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.920 that march with with firearms. What do you make of 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.240 that decision? There? Obviously, the a c l U has 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.440 taken heat, as it often does from both sides here 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.800 for for a decision like that one, Yeah, I mean, 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.560 I think the needs to and I think it's trying, 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:05.480 for better or worse, to carve out a space that 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.440 protects peaceful speech. But that doesn't open the door to 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:15.200 armed groups marching in what looks like ordinary military formation, 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:19.919 because when that happens, those people aren't really potentially dominating 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:24.720 the streets, potentially either provoking violence or intimidating other people. 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.320 And there you have the confluence of two different rights. 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.159 You have a Second Amendment right to bear arms and 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.639 a First Amendment right to speak and to associate. So 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:35.480 in theurious sounds like what should be fine. If you 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.240 can march peacefully, that's fine. If you can carry weapons peacefully, 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.280 then that should be fine. But if you actually do 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.320 both together, then at some point you cease to be 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.120 a peaceful marcher and you actually become a militia that's 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.120 challenging the authority of the police, and that I think 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.639 the law does not protect. And the was trying to find, 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.520 I think a way to to weigh in there. It's 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.040 hard to the sell you because traditionally their position has 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.560 been absolutists. They have gone the most extreme free speech 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.240