1 00:00:04,078 --> 00:00:07,358 Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,638 --> 00:00:16,718 Speaker 1: Hey there, welcome back. It's The Book of Joe Podcast. 3 00:00:16,878 --> 00:00:22,278 Speaker 1: It's the most interesting and unpredictable podcasts in baseball out there. 4 00:00:22,318 --> 00:00:25,678 Speaker 1: It's me Tom Berducci with Joe Madden. Who's coming off? 5 00:00:25,918 --> 00:00:27,718 Speaker 2: I don't know, Joe. I'm gonna call this the Celebrity 6 00:00:27,718 --> 00:00:29,038 Speaker 2: Golf Tour. How's it going for you? 7 00:00:29,478 --> 00:00:32,718 Speaker 3: Actually, it's going pretty well. I just did Bruce Arians yesterday. 8 00:00:32,758 --> 00:00:35,438 Speaker 3: Joe Namath last week. I did Okay yesterday. It was 9 00:00:35,438 --> 00:00:37,998 Speaker 3: getting off the t well the rest of the irons. 10 00:00:38,038 --> 00:00:39,918 Speaker 3: I got to get my irons back together. But I'm 11 00:00:39,918 --> 00:00:42,638 Speaker 3: having a great time meeting a lot of wonderful people. 12 00:00:42,758 --> 00:00:43,798 Speaker 4: So it's been kind of fun. 13 00:00:43,958 --> 00:00:45,758 Speaker 1: That's awesome to hear. Well, we have this kind of 14 00:00:45,758 --> 00:00:48,758 Speaker 1: a serious topic this week. It's not golf. It's Major 15 00:00:48,838 --> 00:00:53,678 Speaker 1: League Baseball's crackdown on sticky substances. And our guest probably 16 00:00:53,678 --> 00:00:55,238 Speaker 1: knows too much about this. 17 00:00:55,358 --> 00:00:56,318 Speaker 2: It's Scott Boris. 18 00:00:56,358 --> 00:01:00,158 Speaker 1: He's the agent for Max Scherzer, among many great players 19 00:01:00,158 --> 00:01:00,678 Speaker 1: in this game. 20 00:01:01,238 --> 00:01:02,678 Speaker 2: Scott, Welcome to the podcast. 21 00:01:04,398 --> 00:01:06,438 Speaker 4: Hi Joe, Good morning, sir. How are you. 22 00:01:06,838 --> 00:01:08,838 Speaker 5: I'm doing good. I always want to be on your 23 00:01:08,878 --> 00:01:10,278 Speaker 5: line out card, that's for sure. 24 00:01:10,958 --> 00:01:12,518 Speaker 4: I miss our conversations. 25 00:01:14,198 --> 00:01:17,038 Speaker 3: I missed our conversations behind home plate at Anaheim and 26 00:01:17,038 --> 00:01:19,718 Speaker 3: at Dodger Stadium. We always had a great time, yeah, 27 00:01:20,158 --> 00:01:22,158 Speaker 3: just filling in the blanks on different things. I was 28 00:01:22,198 --> 00:01:25,358 Speaker 3: always getting educated back there, and I do miss those moments. 29 00:01:25,918 --> 00:01:27,678 Speaker 5: Well, it's been a lot of years, Joe, so it's 30 00:01:27,678 --> 00:01:30,078 Speaker 5: great to hear your voice again, no doubt, thank you, sir. 31 00:01:30,398 --> 00:01:33,558 Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure our fans know about what happened with 32 00:01:33,638 --> 00:01:36,878 Speaker 1: Max shows or at Dodger Stadium last week. And I 33 00:01:36,918 --> 00:01:40,038 Speaker 1: think this is an interesting topic, Joel, because we're dealing 34 00:01:40,118 --> 00:01:44,678 Speaker 1: with a crackdown on sticky substances, and by nature of 35 00:01:44,718 --> 00:01:49,398 Speaker 1: the enforcement, it's ambiguous as to what is allowed and 36 00:01:49,438 --> 00:01:52,678 Speaker 1: what's not, maybe not in terms of substances themselves, or 37 00:01:52,718 --> 00:01:58,078 Speaker 1: maybe actually yes, So we want to dive into that. So, Scott, 38 00:01:58,238 --> 00:02:01,998 Speaker 1: we've talked about this. I want your opinion on where 39 00:02:02,038 --> 00:02:04,438 Speaker 1: we stand now. And I know you mentioned that your 40 00:02:04,478 --> 00:02:07,478 Speaker 1: pictures are asking you what's allowed, which is kind of 41 00:02:07,518 --> 00:02:10,238 Speaker 1: difficult when we don't have let's call it the equivalent 42 00:02:10,278 --> 00:02:13,438 Speaker 1: of a speed limit for pictures. Give me state of 43 00:02:13,638 --> 00:02:16,518 Speaker 1: enforcement of sticky substances. 44 00:02:16,918 --> 00:02:19,918 Speaker 5: Well, first of all, time you're talking about an MLB crackdown. 45 00:02:19,958 --> 00:02:22,158 Speaker 5: I don't think there's an MLB crackdown. I think there's 46 00:02:22,198 --> 00:02:27,438 Speaker 5: a one umpire crackdown. No other umpires in any way 47 00:02:28,078 --> 00:02:33,558 Speaker 5: approached Rule six oh two and said, hey, we were 48 00:02:33,638 --> 00:02:39,518 Speaker 5: going to take and for use of rosin and substance 49 00:02:39,638 --> 00:02:46,038 Speaker 5: that are allowed and sanctioned by the league. We're not 50 00:02:46,198 --> 00:02:51,638 Speaker 5: going to talk about whether or how the application of 51 00:02:51,638 --> 00:02:57,278 Speaker 5: that substance is and what standard that is. 52 00:02:58,238 --> 00:02:58,598 Speaker 4: And so. 53 00:03:00,118 --> 00:03:03,358 Speaker 5: I've told a number of my clients I said, look, 54 00:03:03,398 --> 00:03:07,238 Speaker 5: you're you're being asked to follow a speed limit and 55 00:03:07,318 --> 00:03:12,678 Speaker 5: your car doesn't have a speedometer. You have a subjective 56 00:03:13,838 --> 00:03:16,798 Speaker 5: measure applied to you every time you go out to 57 00:03:16,918 --> 00:03:23,478 Speaker 5: the mound, because the term is it can be tacky, 58 00:03:24,318 --> 00:03:32,598 Speaker 5: but it can't be taki tachi, and that adjudication is made. Apparently, 59 00:03:33,958 --> 00:03:37,678 Speaker 5: in Max's case, he threw in the third inning after 60 00:03:37,758 --> 00:03:43,118 Speaker 5: examination and he was fine, and then using the same 61 00:03:43,318 --> 00:03:52,718 Speaker 5: substance rosin, he goes out and it's now tacI tacky 62 00:03:53,278 --> 00:03:57,398 Speaker 5: and he's then ejected from the game. So how do 63 00:03:57,478 --> 00:04:01,758 Speaker 5: you know? What do you know? There's no quantifiable standard 64 00:04:01,798 --> 00:04:08,158 Speaker 5: for tackiness it is really a subjective driven standard that 65 00:04:09,078 --> 00:04:15,638 Speaker 5: does not provide notice to pictures, which in law due process, 66 00:04:16,078 --> 00:04:19,718 Speaker 5: you need notice so that you know what the qualifiable 67 00:04:19,718 --> 00:04:22,958 Speaker 5: standards are. So if you're going to be penalized and 68 00:04:23,718 --> 00:04:28,478 Speaker 5: not allowed to a search or employment, you're going to 69 00:04:28,558 --> 00:04:35,518 Speaker 5: need some sort of definite measurement and our clearance process 70 00:04:35,718 --> 00:04:37,478 Speaker 5: before you approach the mount. 71 00:04:37,918 --> 00:04:42,518 Speaker 1: Just to recap for our listeners, our buddy Phil Couzy, 72 00:04:42,518 --> 00:04:46,078 Speaker 1: who's been on this podcast examine Mac Suerzer after the 73 00:04:46,118 --> 00:04:50,478 Speaker 1: second inning, told him his fingers were sticky and he 74 00:04:50,558 --> 00:04:51,558 Speaker 1: should wash them. 75 00:04:51,758 --> 00:04:53,318 Speaker 2: So there's no ejection at that point. 76 00:04:53,358 --> 00:04:56,398 Speaker 1: It's the equivalent of you slow down in terms of 77 00:04:56,958 --> 00:04:59,798 Speaker 1: speed limits. He comes back for the third inning, his 78 00:04:59,838 --> 00:05:02,998 Speaker 1: hand is clean, but Phil Cousey then says his glove 79 00:05:03,118 --> 00:05:05,878 Speaker 1: is dirty and he needs to replace his glove. Again, 80 00:05:06,118 --> 00:05:09,758 Speaker 1: no ejection remains in the game that Scott mentioned when 81 00:05:09,758 --> 00:05:12,078 Speaker 1: he comes out to the fourth inning before he threw 82 00:05:12,078 --> 00:05:15,118 Speaker 1: a pitch in it inning, that is when he is 83 00:05:15,878 --> 00:05:20,198 Speaker 1: ejected because they found, according to Dan Bellino, the stickiest 84 00:05:20,278 --> 00:05:24,238 Speaker 1: hand they have seen in three years of enforcement. Joe, 85 00:05:24,438 --> 00:05:27,318 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put you with a position of buck show Walter, 86 00:05:27,918 --> 00:05:28,638 Speaker 1: how do you handle this. 87 00:05:29,478 --> 00:05:32,238 Speaker 3: That's not easy, brother, I mean, you're I've been in it. 88 00:05:32,598 --> 00:05:35,558 Speaker 3: Not with Max Scherzer, I've been in it with Joel 89 00:05:35,598 --> 00:05:40,318 Speaker 3: Peralta in Washington several years ago. I kind of overreacted, 90 00:05:41,438 --> 00:05:45,598 Speaker 3: I because it was exactly precipitated by the other dugout, 91 00:05:45,718 --> 00:05:50,398 Speaker 3: you know, the other dugout started chirping because of Joel, 92 00:05:50,598 --> 00:05:52,838 Speaker 3: and Joel had just pitched there the year before. So 93 00:05:52,998 --> 00:05:57,358 Speaker 3: I was upset about inside information, uh that was being 94 00:05:57,478 --> 00:05:59,958 Speaker 3: utilized in order to get Joel in trouble in US. 95 00:06:00,038 --> 00:06:03,878 Speaker 3: And so in today's game, I mean, it's not necessarily 96 00:06:04,078 --> 00:06:07,438 Speaker 3: about any Nobody called anybody out, and this was purely 97 00:06:07,558 --> 00:06:11,238 Speaker 3: based on umpire discretion. And I agree with Scott in 98 00:06:11,238 --> 00:06:13,238 Speaker 3: a lot of ways the ambiguities of all this, and 99 00:06:13,238 --> 00:06:16,398 Speaker 3: that's the game is loaded with the ambiguities, and the 100 00:06:16,478 --> 00:06:21,078 Speaker 3: empires have to really make determinations constantly with what's going on. 101 00:06:21,678 --> 00:06:26,358 Speaker 3: So for me, I mean, for Bucks perspective, there's a 102 00:06:26,358 --> 00:06:28,798 Speaker 3: good chance I'd have gotten kicked out. There's pretty good 103 00:06:28,878 --> 00:06:30,678 Speaker 3: chance I might have gotten a little bit louder than 104 00:06:30,718 --> 00:06:34,798 Speaker 3: Buck in that situation. That's just my normal reaction because again, 105 00:06:34,918 --> 00:06:38,278 Speaker 3: it's like it's their opinion, and I know they've been 106 00:06:38,638 --> 00:06:41,678 Speaker 3: charged with this making or presenting this opinion, but as 107 00:06:41,718 --> 00:06:43,358 Speaker 3: a manager, I think I might have gotten a little 108 00:06:43,358 --> 00:06:44,918 Speaker 3: bit more upset, not that it would have done any good, 109 00:06:45,838 --> 00:06:48,078 Speaker 3: but again, just talking all this all the way through, 110 00:06:48,118 --> 00:06:49,638 Speaker 3: this isn't going away. I mean, I don't even know 111 00:06:49,678 --> 00:06:52,478 Speaker 3: if like more Empire is going to become more proactive 112 00:06:52,478 --> 00:06:55,398 Speaker 3: with this now in an effort to support what had 113 00:06:55,438 --> 00:06:58,118 Speaker 3: happened in this particular instance, or if there's going to 114 00:06:58,118 --> 00:07:01,118 Speaker 3: be a mandate from the office itself. And so for me, 115 00:07:01,118 --> 00:07:02,878 Speaker 3: it's always about what is the solution to all this 116 00:07:02,958 --> 00:07:05,998 Speaker 3: because it's it's going to remain ambiguous. There's there's nothing, 117 00:07:06,358 --> 00:07:08,878 Speaker 3: there's nothing clear cut about this to the point where 118 00:07:09,238 --> 00:07:11,718 Speaker 3: we've talked about this and Scott and you probably know 119 00:07:11,758 --> 00:07:14,718 Speaker 3: more than I do, but the baseball that has built 120 00:07:14,718 --> 00:07:16,638 Speaker 3: in tackiness to it already, where none of this other 121 00:07:16,678 --> 00:07:20,238 Speaker 3: stuff is necessary. So I don't know if this is 122 00:07:20,238 --> 00:07:22,638 Speaker 3: going to lead to or push to like other conclusions 123 00:07:22,678 --> 00:07:25,998 Speaker 3: or solutions, but it's going to remain ambiguous. And I 124 00:07:25,998 --> 00:07:28,278 Speaker 3: would have been upset, but frank that I probably would 125 00:07:28,278 --> 00:07:28,998 Speaker 3: have gotten kicked out. 126 00:07:29,278 --> 00:07:31,958 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you, Joe, it will happen again 127 00:07:32,038 --> 00:07:36,438 Speaker 1: because we're talking about ambiguities here, don't I don't like. 128 00:07:36,358 --> 00:07:38,318 Speaker 2: Ambiguity in the game. That's what we have. 129 00:07:38,598 --> 00:07:42,278 Speaker 1: But Scott, I think when you criticize, which is I'm 130 00:07:42,278 --> 00:07:45,398 Speaker 1: doing for the ambiguity, it criticize kind of this, this 131 00:07:45,518 --> 00:07:49,718 Speaker 1: procedural effort by baseball, you better come up with a 132 00:07:49,718 --> 00:07:52,838 Speaker 1: better solution. You know, criticizing is one thing, but I 133 00:07:52,838 --> 00:07:55,678 Speaker 1: think you need something better if you're going to criticize. 134 00:07:55,718 --> 00:07:58,198 Speaker 1: So do you have an idea of what baseball can 135 00:07:58,318 --> 00:08:01,678 Speaker 1: do better to make sure the game is played on 136 00:08:02,278 --> 00:08:03,878 Speaker 1: as level of playing field as we can have. 137 00:08:04,518 --> 00:08:06,838 Speaker 5: Well, that's what they want. They want level playing fields. 138 00:08:06,998 --> 00:08:11,718 Speaker 5: And when they draft rules, we cannot subject the stars 139 00:08:11,758 --> 00:08:15,718 Speaker 5: of our game, the elite talents of our game, the 140 00:08:15,798 --> 00:08:21,158 Speaker 5: audience itself. You can't draft a rule where the rules 141 00:08:21,198 --> 00:08:25,878 Speaker 5: are generally provided, where they're controlling the substances used. That's 142 00:08:25,878 --> 00:08:29,478 Speaker 5: what this is about. Pitcher cannot apply a foreign substance 143 00:08:29,518 --> 00:08:33,518 Speaker 5: to the ball. And when they have rules that say, okay, 144 00:08:33,678 --> 00:08:38,878 Speaker 5: rosin legal washing your hands with alcohol, there's no rule 145 00:08:38,918 --> 00:08:43,798 Speaker 5: that prevents that. All these things that we're talking about 146 00:08:44,318 --> 00:08:50,878 Speaker 5: are really sanctioned substances that they're allowing a picture. They 147 00:08:50,958 --> 00:08:56,118 Speaker 5: provided their rules say nothing other than use rosin or 148 00:08:56,998 --> 00:09:00,798 Speaker 5: there's no prescription that prevents any of this. So when 149 00:09:00,838 --> 00:09:04,718 Speaker 5: you allow something to if it's a foreign instance rule 150 00:09:05,238 --> 00:09:09,558 Speaker 5: and your prescription for what the substances are is followed, 151 00:09:09,998 --> 00:09:14,558 Speaker 5: then you shouldn't be invoking anything else. Now, if you 152 00:09:14,638 --> 00:09:19,038 Speaker 5: want to rule as far as the adhesive quality of 153 00:09:19,078 --> 00:09:24,398 Speaker 5: those substances, that's a different rule, and that rule has 154 00:09:24,558 --> 00:09:29,878 Speaker 5: not been succinctly applied. And the thing that I've always 155 00:09:29,918 --> 00:09:34,878 Speaker 5: objected to on a Major League field, I've got men 156 00:09:35,198 --> 00:09:40,718 Speaker 5: who are trained so diligently throughout their careers to run 157 00:09:40,758 --> 00:09:45,518 Speaker 5: a game, and on the field in front of the audience, 158 00:09:46,358 --> 00:09:50,598 Speaker 5: they are sitting there making these players look like they 159 00:09:51,198 --> 00:09:55,318 Speaker 5: are doing something wrong. Do it down in the hallway 160 00:09:55,398 --> 00:10:01,038 Speaker 5: of the dugout. Have an MLB official there, have someone 161 00:10:01,118 --> 00:10:05,278 Speaker 5: who is really really trained in this. If you want 162 00:10:05,318 --> 00:10:09,518 Speaker 5: to talk about adhesive measure, but the first process is 163 00:10:09,558 --> 00:10:14,038 Speaker 5: not finding something wrong, but find something right. I go, 164 00:10:14,238 --> 00:10:18,318 Speaker 5: I check the picture privately, the picture runs out and performs. 165 00:10:19,278 --> 00:10:21,998 Speaker 5: That's what you do. And the reality of it is 166 00:10:22,078 --> 00:10:26,118 Speaker 5: that nature of adhesive is then determined by an MLB 167 00:10:26,238 --> 00:10:30,238 Speaker 5: official in private. I do not want our star athletes 168 00:10:30,798 --> 00:10:34,438 Speaker 5: being subjected in front of their audience to some sort 169 00:10:34,478 --> 00:10:38,438 Speaker 5: of review. And if there is objections to the review, 170 00:10:38,838 --> 00:10:41,998 Speaker 5: I want to taken care of privately before he goes 171 00:10:42,038 --> 00:10:45,238 Speaker 5: out there and performs. We want the focus to be 172 00:10:45,518 --> 00:10:48,518 Speaker 5: on the art. We don't want the focus to be 173 00:10:48,638 --> 00:10:51,718 Speaker 5: on whether or not the art is fraudulent or not. 174 00:10:52,598 --> 00:10:56,318 Speaker 5: And that's what we've created by not appropriately a drafting 175 00:10:56,478 --> 00:11:01,598 Speaker 5: rules and standards that they want to enforce. This is 176 00:11:01,638 --> 00:11:05,238 Speaker 5: not a level playing field issue. Why because we don't 177 00:11:05,278 --> 00:11:10,398 Speaker 5: know what are the amount of adhesive that's allowed. Is 178 00:11:10,438 --> 00:11:14,758 Speaker 5: allowed is a tacky or TACKI techy and you know 179 00:11:14,918 --> 00:11:17,798 Speaker 5: that's kind of what that umpire's left with. And it's 180 00:11:17,838 --> 00:11:19,718 Speaker 5: not fair to the umpires and it's not fair to 181 00:11:19,718 --> 00:11:22,678 Speaker 5: the players. But from the origins of this, whenever I 182 00:11:22,718 --> 00:11:25,198 Speaker 5: go to a game and I see after every inning, 183 00:11:25,238 --> 00:11:29,438 Speaker 5: I see some umpire coming over and dealing with players 184 00:11:29,478 --> 00:11:33,518 Speaker 5: and touching their hands and doing these things. That's not baseball. 185 00:11:33,638 --> 00:11:37,638 Speaker 5: And we have allowed this to happen. And the reason 186 00:11:37,678 --> 00:11:40,038 Speaker 5: these rules are not drafted the way they should be 187 00:11:40,678 --> 00:11:43,918 Speaker 5: is because in collective bargaining, we're worried about fifty five 188 00:11:44,078 --> 00:11:47,198 Speaker 5: other things we can't get to these rules when we're 189 00:11:47,238 --> 00:11:50,158 Speaker 5: reaching a CBA because we're so busy doing a lot 190 00:11:50,158 --> 00:11:53,878 Speaker 5: of the economic steps that it takes to find an agreement, 191 00:11:53,958 --> 00:11:57,038 Speaker 5: and these things fall in the practice. So as we 192 00:11:57,118 --> 00:12:00,278 Speaker 5: approach these what I think the call to this is 193 00:12:00,278 --> 00:12:03,478 Speaker 5: is that this event should realize that we need an 194 00:12:03,518 --> 00:12:08,758 Speaker 5: immediate yet appraisal of the ambiguities. We need to understand 195 00:12:08,838 --> 00:12:11,318 Speaker 5: what the purpose of the level playing field was, which 196 00:12:11,398 --> 00:12:16,918 Speaker 5: was originally we don't want foreign substances applied to a baseball. 197 00:12:16,918 --> 00:12:18,118 Speaker 2: That's well said Scott. 198 00:12:19,038 --> 00:12:21,758 Speaker 1: For our listeners, I think you need or would help 199 00:12:21,838 --> 00:12:24,838 Speaker 1: be helpful if you explain why Max Schures are obviously 200 00:12:25,078 --> 00:12:27,358 Speaker 1: very adamant about the fact that he was not cheating, 201 00:12:27,998 --> 00:12:32,358 Speaker 1: decided not to appeal. We saw how stridently he argued 202 00:12:32,398 --> 00:12:35,838 Speaker 1: on the field in postgame. He did have the opportunity 203 00:12:35,918 --> 00:12:38,318 Speaker 1: to file a grievance take this to an arbitrator. 204 00:12:38,438 --> 00:12:40,638 Speaker 2: Why don't you explain why that he did not take 205 00:12:40,638 --> 00:12:41,118 Speaker 2: that step? 206 00:12:41,598 --> 00:12:45,198 Speaker 5: Well, Tom, that's actually the rules are not You don't 207 00:12:45,198 --> 00:12:49,118 Speaker 5: get to take this to an arbitrator. The grievance when 208 00:12:49,158 --> 00:12:54,318 Speaker 5: you file on the field rule violations, the process does 209 00:12:54,358 --> 00:13:01,718 Speaker 5: not include someone independent a Commissioner's office employee always invokes 210 00:13:01,798 --> 00:13:07,438 Speaker 5: the umpire's report, always follows the umpire's report. There's a 211 00:13:07,558 --> 00:13:12,118 Speaker 5: precedent for this. We don't have an independent arbitrator. We 212 00:13:12,158 --> 00:13:15,158 Speaker 5: don't get a chance to talk about due process under 213 00:13:15,198 --> 00:13:17,838 Speaker 5: the rules because all they do is that they have 214 00:13:18,718 --> 00:13:25,558 Speaker 5: a non legally educated arbitrator. That is very different than 215 00:13:25,678 --> 00:13:29,958 Speaker 5: the grievance process that we employ, where there is a 216 00:13:29,998 --> 00:13:39,838 Speaker 5: neutral arbitrator in other matters of suspension for other areas 217 00:13:39,998 --> 00:13:44,278 Speaker 5: of baseball rules, but in this case there is no 218 00:13:44,478 --> 00:13:49,158 Speaker 5: independent tribunal. There is a pattern. They followed that exact 219 00:13:49,198 --> 00:13:53,158 Speaker 5: pattern we knew they would follow it, and the union 220 00:13:54,358 --> 00:14:03,478 Speaker 5: lawyers are basically arguing to someone that is obviously biased 221 00:14:03,518 --> 00:14:10,798 Speaker 5: towards the enforcement of rules by the rule drafters and 222 00:14:10,878 --> 00:14:12,158 Speaker 5: the Commissioner's office. 223 00:14:12,678 --> 00:14:17,398 Speaker 1: By the way, the ten game suspension is grossly outdated. 224 00:14:17,438 --> 00:14:20,598 Speaker 1: That's an automatic suspension upon being ejected. That's based off 225 00:14:20,718 --> 00:14:24,278 Speaker 1: when the game pivoted on five man rotations where guys 226 00:14:24,318 --> 00:14:26,998 Speaker 1: were pitching every fifth day fifteen years ago. Majority of 227 00:14:27,078 --> 00:14:29,598 Speaker 1: starts were made on the fifth day, so it was 228 00:14:29,638 --> 00:14:32,558 Speaker 1: intended to be a two start suspension. We're in a 229 00:14:32,598 --> 00:14:35,398 Speaker 1: game now where only only about a quarter of starts. 230 00:14:35,478 --> 00:14:37,558 Speaker 1: Less than twenty five percent of starts are made on 231 00:14:37,558 --> 00:14:40,398 Speaker 1: the fifth day. So Max Scherzer is losing one start. 232 00:14:40,718 --> 00:14:44,118 Speaker 1: Not too that's just you know, bookkeeping, if you will. 233 00:14:44,318 --> 00:14:48,238 Speaker 1: But essentially the penalty for missing starts for a starting 234 00:14:48,238 --> 00:14:51,878 Speaker 1: pitcher has to climbed fifty percent because. 235 00:14:51,598 --> 00:14:52,678 Speaker 2: Of the way the game is played. 236 00:14:52,678 --> 00:14:58,078 Speaker 1: Now, is there a better way to make sure the 237 00:14:58,118 --> 00:15:01,718 Speaker 1: pitchers are not gaining edges? I'm going to ask Scott 238 00:15:01,758 --> 00:15:04,478 Speaker 1: about this. Maybe there's something objective out there. When we 239 00:15:04,518 --> 00:15:16,918 Speaker 1: get back, we'll tackle that issue. Welcome back to the 240 00:15:17,038 --> 00:15:20,678 Speaker 1: latest episode of the Book of Joe podcast. Of course, 241 00:15:20,798 --> 00:15:23,238 Speaker 1: it is based on our book, The Book of Joe. 242 00:15:23,278 --> 00:15:26,678 Speaker 1: This is Tom Berducci joined by Joe Medden. We are 243 00:15:26,718 --> 00:15:30,598 Speaker 1: speaking with Scott Boris, the agent for mac schures Are, 244 00:15:30,638 --> 00:15:35,118 Speaker 1: and our topic is sticky stuff. Mac sures Are suspended 245 00:15:35,238 --> 00:15:41,398 Speaker 1: ten games, ejected for having too much stickiness on his fingers. So, Scott, 246 00:15:41,438 --> 00:15:45,038 Speaker 1: we've talked about kind of the ambiguity for umpires to 247 00:15:45,118 --> 00:15:46,838 Speaker 1: determine what's legal what's not. 248 00:15:47,518 --> 00:15:50,798 Speaker 2: What about if we go to something that's more measurable. 249 00:15:51,398 --> 00:15:54,558 Speaker 5: I think always when you're talking about rules, what's the 250 00:15:54,638 --> 00:15:57,638 Speaker 5: rule for the first purpose of this rule is again 251 00:15:57,758 --> 00:16:01,998 Speaker 5: to control the substances that players are allowed to use. 252 00:16:02,598 --> 00:16:05,998 Speaker 5: So we've advanced it. Before there was a laxity in 253 00:16:06,038 --> 00:16:09,358 Speaker 5: this area, and now there's a specificity in this area. 254 00:16:09,758 --> 00:16:13,198 Speaker 5: You can use rosin. But now we have a different 255 00:16:13,358 --> 00:16:19,318 Speaker 5: set of circumstances to where the adhesiveness caused by sanctioned 256 00:16:19,398 --> 00:16:27,318 Speaker 5: substances was by one umpire out of over ninety to 257 00:16:27,318 --> 00:16:30,438 Speaker 5: one hundred that have examined this over three years, the 258 00:16:30,518 --> 00:16:35,758 Speaker 5: adhesiveness of that using that substance was brought into question 259 00:16:36,598 --> 00:16:42,238 Speaker 5: and his subjective opinion was that it was too adhesive. 260 00:16:42,998 --> 00:16:47,478 Speaker 5: Yet the contemplation of the rule was about what substances 261 00:16:47,518 --> 00:16:50,878 Speaker 5: we could use, and the idea of it is is 262 00:16:50,918 --> 00:16:54,798 Speaker 5: that in this case, which is rather interesting, the player 263 00:16:54,918 --> 00:16:58,278 Speaker 5: was completely compliant. Max went in and washed his hands. 264 00:16:58,518 --> 00:17:01,398 Speaker 5: He showed him his hands. There was nothing found on 265 00:17:01,438 --> 00:17:04,238 Speaker 5: his hands other than rosin. He goes in and they 266 00:17:04,238 --> 00:17:08,238 Speaker 5: said his hands had Mississippi mud on it from the baseball. 267 00:17:08,358 --> 00:17:11,398 Speaker 5: His hands were too dark. The umpire said, could you 268 00:17:11,438 --> 00:17:14,198 Speaker 5: please clean your hands off? And it's not like he objected. 269 00:17:14,318 --> 00:17:16,838 Speaker 5: He went in and did it. Did it within a stringent. 270 00:17:17,278 --> 00:17:21,158 Speaker 5: It was perfectly legal to do cleaned off his hands, reapplied, 271 00:17:21,158 --> 00:17:22,878 Speaker 5: the rosin comes out and pitches. 272 00:17:23,278 --> 00:17:25,678 Speaker 2: Yeah, Scott, I'm glad you brought that up. 273 00:17:25,718 --> 00:17:29,038 Speaker 1: You're talking about alcohol, correct in washing his hands, he's 274 00:17:29,118 --> 00:17:31,598 Speaker 1: ordered to wash his hands, that he uses alcohol to 275 00:17:31,758 --> 00:17:32,918 Speaker 1: wash his hands. 276 00:17:33,078 --> 00:17:35,478 Speaker 5: Yeah, because he's got to get the darkness off of 277 00:17:35,518 --> 00:17:38,438 Speaker 5: his hands at the umpire requested for him to do. 278 00:17:38,918 --> 00:17:42,198 Speaker 5: And you can't apply water when you're a pitcher, because 279 00:17:42,198 --> 00:17:44,598 Speaker 5: what does water do to the tissue of fingers. It 280 00:17:44,838 --> 00:17:48,318 Speaker 5: softens it, And so consequently you're you're left with you 281 00:17:48,358 --> 00:17:51,398 Speaker 5: and you also got to get the mud and the 282 00:17:51,918 --> 00:17:55,318 Speaker 5: rosin cakes on his hand. You've got to apply something 283 00:17:55,358 --> 00:17:57,798 Speaker 5: to get that off in a rather immediate way, because 284 00:17:57,878 --> 00:18:01,158 Speaker 5: remember the game is being held up, and so you've 285 00:18:01,198 --> 00:18:05,798 Speaker 5: got this done, and then there's talk about alcohol and 286 00:18:05,918 --> 00:18:10,718 Speaker 5: rosin creates a greater adhesive. Well, the rules do not 287 00:18:10,958 --> 00:18:14,878 Speaker 5: prohibit the use of these things, and it's done in 288 00:18:14,958 --> 00:18:18,918 Speaker 5: front of him. MLB official. It is not the pitcher's 289 00:18:19,078 --> 00:18:26,198 Speaker 5: problem that this combination is more or less adhesive, because 290 00:18:26,238 --> 00:18:30,078 Speaker 5: he does it, because he's using substances that are designed 291 00:18:30,158 --> 00:18:33,958 Speaker 5: and was directed to do by the umpire to clean 292 00:18:33,998 --> 00:18:36,758 Speaker 5: this off. Then he goes out shows him his hands, 293 00:18:36,798 --> 00:18:39,518 Speaker 5: and he lets him pitch. And then the next inning 294 00:18:39,598 --> 00:18:42,958 Speaker 5: he does the same process that he had done in 295 00:18:42,998 --> 00:18:45,198 Speaker 5: the third inning, and he goes out for the fourth inning, 296 00:18:45,438 --> 00:18:50,038 Speaker 5: and all of a sudden that is adjudicated, same process, 297 00:18:50,398 --> 00:18:55,718 Speaker 5: same substances, and the third inning, agreed to perform in 298 00:18:55,758 --> 00:19:00,238 Speaker 5: the fourth inning before he performs, you are now ejected 299 00:19:00,358 --> 00:19:03,798 Speaker 5: because you've done the same process. How can a player know. 300 00:19:04,158 --> 00:19:06,958 Speaker 3: There's no insinuation that he was using anything differently other 301 00:19:06,998 --> 00:19:09,718 Speaker 3: than what was prescribed, because that rock Rosen can be 302 00:19:09,758 --> 00:19:13,478 Speaker 3: extremely tacky. I was talking to Tommy before we began this, 303 00:19:13,598 --> 00:19:16,238 Speaker 3: and I know that you're aware of this too. So 304 00:19:18,358 --> 00:19:20,158 Speaker 3: if you're going to if you're going to accuse him 305 00:19:20,158 --> 00:19:22,838 Speaker 3: of doing something like this, and I understand, I think 306 00:19:22,918 --> 00:19:25,038 Speaker 3: dark hands. I mean, what does that have to do 307 00:19:25,078 --> 00:19:27,598 Speaker 3: with anything anyway, Because if your hands get black, that 308 00:19:27,598 --> 00:19:29,558 Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean you're going to create more spin or 309 00:19:29,598 --> 00:19:32,918 Speaker 3: do anything differently with the baseball. Because originally all this stuff, 310 00:19:33,238 --> 00:19:35,438 Speaker 3: you know, of course, it's about spin on the baseball, 311 00:19:35,438 --> 00:19:38,758 Speaker 3: but then there was a big argument made also about 312 00:19:38,758 --> 00:19:41,078 Speaker 3: control so that that hitters would feel safer in the 313 00:19:41,118 --> 00:19:44,638 Speaker 3: plate at the plate, which I've always there's there's all 314 00:19:44,678 --> 00:19:47,438 Speaker 3: these different thoughts and ideas that are thrown out there 315 00:19:47,478 --> 00:19:51,398 Speaker 3: that have never really subscribed to. So but at the 316 00:19:51,478 --> 00:19:53,038 Speaker 3: end of the day, I think if you're going to 317 00:19:53,078 --> 00:19:55,718 Speaker 3: say that it was tacky or tacky, tacky whatever, then 318 00:19:56,198 --> 00:19:58,958 Speaker 3: at some point you have to, like you're saying, what 319 00:19:59,558 --> 00:20:02,478 Speaker 3: was it? What was different about this Dolla's hand other 320 00:20:02,558 --> 00:20:07,038 Speaker 3: than using the permitted substances? Because I'm telling you, man, 321 00:20:07,518 --> 00:20:09,598 Speaker 3: when I first got into that rock Rosin and I 322 00:20:09,638 --> 00:20:12,078 Speaker 3: was messing with it a little bit. Just when you'd 323 00:20:12,078 --> 00:20:16,318 Speaker 3: get that and just really working within your hands, you 324 00:20:16,398 --> 00:20:19,398 Speaker 3: get real sticky. Your hands get extremely sticky just in 325 00:20:19,438 --> 00:20:22,718 Speaker 3: and of itself. So that's the part again, the ambiguities 326 00:20:22,718 --> 00:20:24,358 Speaker 3: we're talking about this. Some of you guys are making 327 00:20:24,358 --> 00:20:26,518 Speaker 3: great points with all of this, but you have to 328 00:20:26,798 --> 00:20:28,758 Speaker 3: if you're going to if you're going to check somebody 329 00:20:28,798 --> 00:20:30,718 Speaker 3: and be accusatory. 330 00:20:30,078 --> 00:20:31,478 Speaker 4: Like that, what is it? 331 00:20:31,758 --> 00:20:34,438 Speaker 3: What was it that was on his hand that wasn't 332 00:20:34,438 --> 00:20:36,758 Speaker 3: supposed to be there. That's That's what I'm curious about. 333 00:20:37,078 --> 00:20:39,358 Speaker 3: Ten games suspension. I got to be more specific. 334 00:20:39,798 --> 00:20:42,118 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Joe, I think the problem here on 335 00:20:42,278 --> 00:20:46,358 Speaker 1: MLB side is that, yes, Rosin and sweat perfectly allowable. 336 00:20:46,878 --> 00:20:49,598 Speaker 2: Alcohol does introduce another element. 337 00:20:49,838 --> 00:20:53,598 Speaker 5: Yeah, job, you're suggesting when you say that that alcohol 338 00:20:53,718 --> 00:20:56,358 Speaker 5: is subscribed in the rule as a foreign substances. 339 00:20:56,598 --> 00:20:59,758 Speaker 1: No, no, no, exactly. I think you're one hundred percent right. 340 00:20:59,958 --> 00:21:02,078 Speaker 1: My point would be that the umpire is making a 341 00:21:02,158 --> 00:21:05,478 Speaker 1: judgment regardless of what subst I mean. I was used 342 00:21:05,478 --> 00:21:08,278 Speaker 1: to a world where you got thrown out for foreign substances. 343 00:21:08,398 --> 00:21:11,758 Speaker 1: Now it's possible, we've seen it to get thrown out 344 00:21:11,798 --> 00:21:15,638 Speaker 1: with legal substances, just because they're determining. There's a level 345 00:21:15,718 --> 00:21:18,598 Speaker 1: of stickiness as far as the MLB official. Just to 346 00:21:18,638 --> 00:21:22,718 Speaker 1: clarify that that's a game day compliance monitor. These are 347 00:21:22,798 --> 00:21:26,678 Speaker 1: part time seasonal employees that sit in a dugout essentially 348 00:21:26,798 --> 00:21:29,598 Speaker 1: to prevent sign stealing electronic devices. 349 00:21:29,918 --> 00:21:31,158 Speaker 2: Their eyes and ears. 350 00:21:31,398 --> 00:21:34,478 Speaker 1: They have no authoritative power, they don't intervene. They're just 351 00:21:34,518 --> 00:21:36,558 Speaker 1: basically there to make sure things are on the up 352 00:21:36,558 --> 00:21:39,918 Speaker 1: and up. So, yeah, that guy is there to witness 353 00:21:39,998 --> 00:21:42,358 Speaker 1: things and report them. I don't know what kind of 354 00:21:42,398 --> 00:21:44,758 Speaker 1: power he has to say, hey, this is kosher and 355 00:21:44,758 --> 00:21:46,838 Speaker 1: this is not. But he's the eyes and ears that 356 00:21:46,998 --> 00:21:49,878 Speaker 1: they have these people in every ballpark. Just clarifying that point, 357 00:21:49,958 --> 00:21:50,598 Speaker 1: go ahead, Scott. 358 00:21:50,998 --> 00:21:54,238 Speaker 5: No, I'm just saying if there was use of any 359 00:21:55,278 --> 00:22:01,518 Speaker 5: prohibited substance, that league official in this case, Brian Anderson 360 00:22:01,518 --> 00:22:03,998 Speaker 5: I believe his name was because I checked, would be 361 00:22:04,038 --> 00:22:06,798 Speaker 5: able to point that out. He would say, you're using 362 00:22:06,878 --> 00:22:11,318 Speaker 5: some you know, a substance outside the nature of the rules. 363 00:22:11,358 --> 00:22:15,158 Speaker 5: That's not the case here. And Max told the umpires 364 00:22:15,278 --> 00:22:17,838 Speaker 5: what he was doing. Hey, I'll go clean my hands. Look, 365 00:22:18,038 --> 00:22:21,358 Speaker 5: look I cleaned my hands with alcohol. I reapplied the rosin. 366 00:22:21,398 --> 00:22:24,078 Speaker 5: I'm like, okay to pitch. They touch him, they say, fine, 367 00:22:24,118 --> 00:22:26,798 Speaker 5: go throw the third. Now he does the same process 368 00:22:26,838 --> 00:22:29,278 Speaker 5: and goes out there for the fourth. They touch him. No, no, no, 369 00:22:29,318 --> 00:22:32,598 Speaker 5: you're super tacky. You're tacky. Tacky. Now you're not just tacky, 370 00:22:32,638 --> 00:22:35,518 Speaker 5: you're out. And so look the thing in the law, 371 00:22:35,558 --> 00:22:38,638 Speaker 5: when you draft rules and a person wants to perform 372 00:22:39,518 --> 00:22:42,918 Speaker 5: in an employment environment, you have to provide that employee 373 00:22:43,558 --> 00:22:48,238 Speaker 5: do notice, do process to his work, and he has 374 00:22:48,278 --> 00:22:50,798 Speaker 5: to know in advance what is violative of the rules 375 00:22:50,798 --> 00:22:53,718 Speaker 5: and what is and so look, we have all forms 376 00:22:53,758 --> 00:22:56,198 Speaker 5: of tech. If you want to go in and say that, oh, 377 00:22:56,358 --> 00:23:00,958 Speaker 5: his spin rate jumped by three hundred or four hundred 378 00:23:01,478 --> 00:23:05,078 Speaker 5: that this tackiness caused this. All of a sudden, you 379 00:23:05,078 --> 00:23:07,758 Speaker 5: can say, nope, your spin rates are up above your norm. 380 00:23:08,238 --> 00:23:11,118 Speaker 5: Your tacky, you're too tacky. You're going to have to 381 00:23:11,158 --> 00:23:14,278 Speaker 5: go clean your hands because your spin rates are way up. 382 00:23:14,678 --> 00:23:17,478 Speaker 5: But then you get into the idea of what is 383 00:23:17,518 --> 00:23:20,238 Speaker 5: the norm for a picture, how you do it? And 384 00:23:20,318 --> 00:23:23,638 Speaker 5: so when you draft rules, if you're going to draft 385 00:23:23,718 --> 00:23:27,438 Speaker 5: rules for a purpose, will you know that what substances 386 00:23:27,478 --> 00:23:31,598 Speaker 5: they can use has now been limited. When someone asks 387 00:23:31,638 --> 00:23:34,518 Speaker 5: you to wash your hands, you know that all substances 388 00:23:34,518 --> 00:23:37,558 Speaker 5: that were on it were off. Then you reapply the 389 00:23:37,598 --> 00:23:40,398 Speaker 5: substance in front of someone you know what the substance is. 390 00:23:40,758 --> 00:23:44,558 Speaker 5: You've had compliance with the foreign substance rule because you 391 00:23:44,638 --> 00:23:46,798 Speaker 5: know that there's no foreign substance because you're seeing what 392 00:23:46,798 --> 00:23:50,598 Speaker 5: they're applying on their hands. And then I know we 393 00:23:50,638 --> 00:23:54,598 Speaker 5: had an issue with the Yankee pitcher where herman the 394 00:23:54,758 --> 00:23:58,398 Speaker 5: umpire said to him, you can apply roslin in the dugout. 395 00:23:58,438 --> 00:24:01,478 Speaker 5: There is no rule that prevents that because now we 396 00:24:01,518 --> 00:24:03,598 Speaker 5: have a time clock and you go out, and you're 397 00:24:03,598 --> 00:24:08,038 Speaker 5: going to go out and try to adjust the tackiness 398 00:24:08,078 --> 00:24:10,598 Speaker 5: of what you have on your hands. On the mount 399 00:24:10,718 --> 00:24:13,238 Speaker 5: and then warm up. And the reality of it is 400 00:24:13,278 --> 00:24:16,158 Speaker 5: that tackiness is important to a picture because it has 401 00:24:16,198 --> 00:24:18,318 Speaker 5: to do with command and what he's going to do, 402 00:24:18,598 --> 00:24:20,558 Speaker 5: and he wants to know he has that feel right 403 00:24:20,678 --> 00:24:24,598 Speaker 5: before he goes out there. So we've got to rule 404 00:24:25,598 --> 00:24:30,438 Speaker 5: a broadness of a rule that was designed for foreign substances, 405 00:24:31,078 --> 00:24:33,918 Speaker 5: and yet now we have an application to the level 406 00:24:33,998 --> 00:24:37,758 Speaker 5: of the legal substances. It's a different rule, it's a 407 00:24:37,798 --> 00:24:44,078 Speaker 5: different process, and a different quantifiable standard needs to be studied. 408 00:24:44,718 --> 00:24:48,078 Speaker 5: Or we can go back and use go back to 409 00:24:48,118 --> 00:24:50,638 Speaker 5: the baseball thing, because that's what players have been complaining 410 00:24:50,678 --> 00:24:53,718 Speaker 5: about for years, is that our baseball, unlike the one 411 00:24:53,758 --> 00:24:57,758 Speaker 5: in Japan is, doesn't have the appropriate adhesiveness to it. 412 00:24:58,158 --> 00:25:01,358 Speaker 5: And that way we're removed the idea that the picture 413 00:25:01,438 --> 00:25:05,838 Speaker 5: can apply something extreme to the ball to his hand 414 00:25:06,158 --> 00:25:09,758 Speaker 5: to create it. And from a hitter's perspective on cold days, 415 00:25:09,838 --> 00:25:15,198 Speaker 5: windy days, when the ball slick or the pitcher doesn't 416 00:25:15,198 --> 00:25:18,678 Speaker 5: have proper control, we don't want that injuring players either. 417 00:25:19,118 --> 00:25:24,318 Speaker 5: So in this scenario, you can't draft rules unless contemplation 418 00:25:24,478 --> 00:25:27,838 Speaker 5: of all of these dynamics are there. Because the reason 419 00:25:27,918 --> 00:25:31,558 Speaker 5: you once you do this you're violating the due process 420 00:25:31,678 --> 00:25:34,158 Speaker 5: rights to the players. They have no notice of what 421 00:25:34,318 --> 00:25:38,918 Speaker 5: they can't do, and so the rule is beyond the 422 00:25:38,958 --> 00:25:43,398 Speaker 5: focus of what was originally intended, which was to limit 423 00:25:43,438 --> 00:25:47,918 Speaker 5: the substances. And now when we create this throw in 424 00:25:48,118 --> 00:25:52,198 Speaker 5: about ambiguity, I see why if I'm an umpire, I 425 00:25:52,318 --> 00:25:54,678 Speaker 5: see why I don't go near this because, you know what, 426 00:25:55,518 --> 00:25:58,638 Speaker 5: I don't want to be in a position when someone 427 00:25:58,798 --> 00:26:02,198 Speaker 5: asked me, well, my touch tells me, I'm going to 428 00:26:02,238 --> 00:26:06,678 Speaker 5: go back to my histore touch. Really, and you know, 429 00:26:06,718 --> 00:26:09,558 Speaker 5: we all know that kuz he's a great umpire, have 430 00:26:09,638 --> 00:26:11,118 Speaker 5: been in the league for a long time, and he's 431 00:26:11,158 --> 00:26:13,598 Speaker 5: a veteran. He knows how to run a game. But 432 00:26:13,878 --> 00:26:15,558 Speaker 5: in all the umpires do. But the fact of the 433 00:26:15,598 --> 00:26:17,798 Speaker 5: matter is when they go to say their touch tests, 434 00:26:18,198 --> 00:26:20,198 Speaker 5: they can't explain it. When you put men in that 435 00:26:20,278 --> 00:26:23,638 Speaker 5: position for enforcement. You know, here I'm on the freeway. 436 00:26:23,678 --> 00:26:26,558 Speaker 5: Those standard is drive safe. Well, you weren't driving safely. 437 00:26:27,398 --> 00:26:30,638 Speaker 5: Well what do you mean by that, officer, Well, by 438 00:26:30,798 --> 00:26:34,678 Speaker 5: my opinion, after observing you, you weren't driving safely. Or 439 00:26:34,718 --> 00:26:37,598 Speaker 5: he walks up to you and says, my odometer tells me, 440 00:26:37,958 --> 00:26:39,918 Speaker 5: you know my speed gun tells me you were going 441 00:26:39,958 --> 00:26:44,158 Speaker 5: sixty five and fifty five. That is a rule of 442 00:26:44,358 --> 00:26:48,158 Speaker 5: quantifiable standard that a driver can say, Oh, I now 443 00:26:48,238 --> 00:26:51,918 Speaker 5: understand what I'm doing. There's been a measurement. It's beyond 444 00:26:52,198 --> 00:26:55,838 Speaker 5: rather than him saying you weren't driving safely, and that 445 00:26:56,038 --> 00:26:57,038 Speaker 5: to me is where we're at. 446 00:26:57,358 --> 00:26:58,918 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that point. 447 00:26:59,518 --> 00:27:02,878 Speaker 1: You certainly the Harman situation points out the ambiguity. One 448 00:27:02,918 --> 00:27:06,358 Speaker 1: guy gets a pass, one guy is bounced for ten games. 449 00:27:06,598 --> 00:27:10,438 Speaker 1: Something doesn't sit right with me with that. But you 450 00:27:10,558 --> 00:27:15,038 Speaker 1: mentioned objection objectable or things that we can measure right. 451 00:27:15,118 --> 00:27:18,078 Speaker 1: You mentioned spin rates. I got a problem with that, 452 00:27:18,158 --> 00:27:20,398 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you why. And it relates to Max 453 00:27:20,438 --> 00:27:23,198 Speaker 1: Scherzer and a little bit of Joe Musgrove last year 454 00:27:23,238 --> 00:27:25,278 Speaker 1: when his spin rate was up and the Mets decided 455 00:27:25,278 --> 00:27:25,838 Speaker 1: to check him. 456 00:27:25,838 --> 00:27:27,758 Speaker 2: It turned out there was nothing there. At least they 457 00:27:27,838 --> 00:27:28,478 Speaker 2: found nothing. 458 00:27:29,358 --> 00:27:33,518 Speaker 1: Max Scherzer's spin rate in the second inning was the 459 00:27:33,638 --> 00:27:37,158 Speaker 1: highest in his last one hundred and forty three games. 460 00:27:37,638 --> 00:27:40,998 Speaker 1: He threw two pitches in that second inning that had 461 00:27:40,998 --> 00:27:44,518 Speaker 1: the highest spin rate of his last more than two 462 00:27:44,558 --> 00:27:49,278 Speaker 1: thousand fastballs. Now, spin rate can vary. You have to 463 00:27:49,318 --> 00:27:53,918 Speaker 1: give guys some leeway. Jacob mgrom spin rate has gone up, 464 00:27:53,918 --> 00:27:57,118 Speaker 1: but his velocity has gone up. Usually the parder you throw, 465 00:27:57,198 --> 00:27:59,438 Speaker 1: the more the spin rate's going to go up. I 466 00:27:59,598 --> 00:28:02,838 Speaker 1: like to look at what's called the spin to velocity ratio, 467 00:28:02,958 --> 00:28:07,398 Speaker 1: this sv ARE, And in that case, Max Schuzer's second 468 00:28:07,438 --> 00:28:10,278 Speaker 1: inning SVR was the highest it's been since June of 469 00:28:10,278 --> 00:28:13,718 Speaker 1: twenty one, when the crackdown began. Now you're looking at 470 00:28:13,718 --> 00:28:17,038 Speaker 1: these numbers, but my point, Scott, is that you can't 471 00:28:17,078 --> 00:28:20,118 Speaker 1: put entire faith in these numbers, because what you're doing 472 00:28:20,238 --> 00:28:25,438 Speaker 1: is you're risking discipline of players just strictly on spin 473 00:28:25,518 --> 00:28:30,278 Speaker 1: rates and svrs what he might be clean. So there's 474 00:28:30,318 --> 00:28:33,558 Speaker 1: no physical evidence if you're just going by these measurements. 475 00:28:33,558 --> 00:28:36,838 Speaker 1: So you can look at these measurements and say Max 476 00:28:36,878 --> 00:28:40,398 Speaker 1: Schurzer's velocity was down in the second inning, but his 477 00:28:40,518 --> 00:28:43,038 Speaker 1: spin rate was up to levels we have not seen 478 00:28:43,078 --> 00:28:46,238 Speaker 1: in one hundred and forty three starts. That can't be enough. 479 00:28:46,278 --> 00:28:48,478 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I need more physical evidence. 480 00:28:49,358 --> 00:28:52,758 Speaker 5: I'm not look, I'm not suggesting that I have a solution. 481 00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:55,878 Speaker 5: I'm just saying, don't draft rules when you don't have 482 00:28:55,918 --> 00:28:58,838 Speaker 5: the solution. And this is one of them. And the 483 00:28:58,878 --> 00:29:01,278 Speaker 5: reality of it is that you're looking at and by 484 00:29:01,318 --> 00:29:03,558 Speaker 5: the way Max's spin rates in the third inning, when 485 00:29:03,558 --> 00:29:06,238 Speaker 5: he perferm and got three batters out, we're right in 486 00:29:06,238 --> 00:29:08,838 Speaker 5: the line within I don't know eighty You know, when 487 00:29:08,838 --> 00:29:11,078 Speaker 5: your spin rates are within one hundred of one another, 488 00:29:11,118 --> 00:29:13,838 Speaker 5: they're basically about the same. I don't know what the 489 00:29:13,918 --> 00:29:16,718 Speaker 5: differences you're talking about for one or two pitches in 490 00:29:16,758 --> 00:29:18,878 Speaker 5: the second inning. But in the third inning, when he 491 00:29:18,958 --> 00:29:22,398 Speaker 5: performed and he was examined, his spin rates were the same. 492 00:29:22,438 --> 00:29:25,318 Speaker 5: He retired all the hitters and he went out and performed, 493 00:29:25,478 --> 00:29:29,558 Speaker 5: and the fourth inning, before he even threw, they didn't say, oh, 494 00:29:29,598 --> 00:29:32,318 Speaker 5: your spin rates are higher now in the fourth inning 495 00:29:32,358 --> 00:29:34,158 Speaker 5: because he didn't throw in the fourth inning. They just 496 00:29:34,318 --> 00:29:37,638 Speaker 5: this is not about spin rates. This about them saying 497 00:29:37,718 --> 00:29:42,878 Speaker 5: subjectively that tackiness was in their opinion, different in the 498 00:29:42,918 --> 00:29:47,118 Speaker 5: fourth inning before he threw, rather than the third inning 499 00:29:47,238 --> 00:29:50,358 Speaker 5: before he threw. And so the idea of it is 500 00:29:50,358 --> 00:29:54,318 Speaker 5: is that we're not when you're talking about a rule 501 00:29:54,358 --> 00:29:59,398 Speaker 5: in foreign substances. The application of that of that dynamic 502 00:29:59,598 --> 00:30:02,118 Speaker 5: is that there's nothing in this game that Max Scherzer 503 00:30:02,198 --> 00:30:04,998 Speaker 5: didn't do about any thing that was placed on his 504 00:30:05,118 --> 00:30:08,918 Speaker 5: hands that was not legally subscribed by the league. And 505 00:30:08,918 --> 00:30:11,398 Speaker 5: that's the point. The fact that his spin rates are 506 00:30:11,518 --> 00:30:15,038 Speaker 5: up or down are irregular. It's a hot day, it's 507 00:30:15,078 --> 00:30:19,358 Speaker 5: a day game versus a night game, it's eighty degrees 508 00:30:19,398 --> 00:30:22,598 Speaker 5: instead of seventy. All those things affect spin rates because 509 00:30:22,638 --> 00:30:25,318 Speaker 5: your adherence to the ball and what they do. So 510 00:30:26,278 --> 00:30:29,838 Speaker 5: I don't want to suggest that I have some sort 511 00:30:29,838 --> 00:30:33,558 Speaker 5: of solution. I'm giving you quantifiable measures. I said, if 512 00:30:33,598 --> 00:30:37,158 Speaker 5: you want to test for foreign substances and get a spectrometer, 513 00:30:37,958 --> 00:30:40,238 Speaker 5: you can do those things. But whatever you want to 514 00:30:40,278 --> 00:30:43,958 Speaker 5: do to apply a rule, before you instigate that rule 515 00:30:43,998 --> 00:30:48,838 Speaker 5: into the system and start incriminating players and suspending players, 516 00:30:49,318 --> 00:30:52,198 Speaker 5: they need due process to know how that rule is 517 00:30:52,238 --> 00:30:55,078 Speaker 5: to be applied. And now we it's clear from this 518 00:30:55,158 --> 00:30:59,438 Speaker 5: event we have a rule in operation that is subjective. 519 00:30:59,798 --> 00:31:02,998 Speaker 5: It doesn't provide due process, and any pitcher in the 520 00:31:03,038 --> 00:31:09,358 Speaker 5: game cannot determine what is tacky versus objectionable tacky tacking. 521 00:31:09,998 --> 00:31:12,838 Speaker 5: And that's kind of where we're at as to the 522 00:31:12,878 --> 00:31:16,798 Speaker 5: solution of it. My advice is that you do not 523 00:31:17,038 --> 00:31:20,038 Speaker 5: do it on the field. And my second ass is 524 00:31:20,118 --> 00:31:25,838 Speaker 5: stop no umpires other than one is taking this stance 525 00:31:25,958 --> 00:31:30,958 Speaker 5: to invoke this subjective rule, and that is what the 526 00:31:30,998 --> 00:31:34,838 Speaker 5: evidence is today. And why are not the other umpires 527 00:31:34,878 --> 00:31:37,838 Speaker 5: doing that? What would be the reason? I don't think 528 00:31:37,838 --> 00:31:41,558 Speaker 5: it's because they are not following the rules. I think 529 00:31:41,638 --> 00:31:44,518 Speaker 5: they're having issue with the very issue that we have 530 00:31:44,958 --> 00:31:47,678 Speaker 5: and they want to treat the players fairly in their 531 00:31:47,718 --> 00:31:49,118 Speaker 5: application of the rules. 532 00:31:49,878 --> 00:31:50,078 Speaker 2: Yeah. 533 00:31:50,118 --> 00:31:52,798 Speaker 1: All great points, and that's why I think this is 534 00:31:52,838 --> 00:31:56,678 Speaker 1: going to happen again. Unfortunately, the ambiguity is not going away. 535 00:31:57,398 --> 00:32:01,118 Speaker 1: I don't know what the answer is, Joe, but and 536 00:32:01,158 --> 00:32:03,678 Speaker 1: I think Scott points out the fact that umpires and 537 00:32:03,758 --> 00:32:08,078 Speaker 1: a very tough position, very tough. So my question to you, 538 00:32:08,278 --> 00:32:11,158 Speaker 1: Joe is as a manager, what do you tell your 539 00:32:11,158 --> 00:32:14,158 Speaker 1: pictures or what do you do going forward as a 540 00:32:14,198 --> 00:32:19,798 Speaker 1: manager to make sure you're in compliance with an ambiguous 541 00:32:20,238 --> 00:32:22,038 Speaker 1: you know rule? It's not really that clear. 542 00:32:22,678 --> 00:32:25,438 Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean again, it's just like we're talking 543 00:32:25,438 --> 00:32:27,598 Speaker 3: about right now. You just go back stuff in the beginning. 544 00:32:27,838 --> 00:32:31,278 Speaker 3: What is permitted, and what is permitted is the different 545 00:32:31,638 --> 00:32:33,478 Speaker 3: versions of the ross and there's two versions, right, the 546 00:32:33,598 --> 00:32:35,878 Speaker 3: ross and rock Rosin, and there's like more of a 547 00:32:35,958 --> 00:32:39,358 Speaker 3: finely granulated Rosen and this is what you got, all right, 548 00:32:39,438 --> 00:32:42,278 Speaker 3: and then I don't know, I mean, listen, if they 549 00:32:42,518 --> 00:32:44,558 Speaker 3: if they want to walk around during spring training and 550 00:32:45,158 --> 00:32:48,478 Speaker 3: demonstrate tacky and tacky, tacky you want to walk through 551 00:32:48,478 --> 00:32:50,998 Speaker 3: a clubhouse and have and have like uh, you know, 552 00:32:51,198 --> 00:32:54,318 Speaker 3: umpires or other people walk around and demonstrate to these guys. 553 00:32:55,238 --> 00:32:56,758 Speaker 4: And of course a lot of this is always going 554 00:32:56,838 --> 00:32:58,598 Speaker 4: to be on the honor system. But I do like, 555 00:32:59,318 --> 00:33:00,278 Speaker 4: I do like two things. 556 00:33:00,598 --> 00:33:04,838 Speaker 3: I like Scott's thought and I actually had this thought 557 00:33:04,878 --> 00:33:09,398 Speaker 3: when it first began to do all this inspection stuff. 558 00:33:09,438 --> 00:33:12,678 Speaker 3: Away from the maddening crowd, do not permit your guys 559 00:33:12,718 --> 00:33:14,878 Speaker 3: to stand on the field have an umpire walk up 560 00:33:14,878 --> 00:33:17,238 Speaker 3: to him like he's frisking him, and have and go 561 00:33:17,318 --> 00:33:20,958 Speaker 3: through these gesticulations and attempt to determine in front of 562 00:33:21,038 --> 00:33:24,838 Speaker 3: everybody whether he's sticky or not. I'd rather yes, absolutely, 563 00:33:24,838 --> 00:33:27,598 Speaker 3: I'd rather see that away. And Also I'm always about 564 00:33:28,198 --> 00:33:30,718 Speaker 3: you know, we're always in the in the age we 565 00:33:30,758 --> 00:33:34,958 Speaker 3: live in specificity, and and actually people that are trained 566 00:33:35,278 --> 00:33:38,118 Speaker 3: to do certain things and you know umpires, I mean 567 00:33:38,118 --> 00:33:40,878 Speaker 3: how they're training and the fact that's sticky or not sticky, 568 00:33:40,918 --> 00:33:42,958 Speaker 3: that's what they're trained in. But I don't understand why 569 00:33:42,958 --> 00:33:45,918 Speaker 3: you can't apply something to that hand immediately and find 570 00:33:45,918 --> 00:33:48,878 Speaker 3: out if there's something other than on that particular hand 571 00:33:48,958 --> 00:33:52,438 Speaker 3: by this other officer official in the dougout. Of course, 572 00:33:52,438 --> 00:33:53,998 Speaker 3: it's going to cost more money to do that. I 573 00:33:54,118 --> 00:33:56,398 Speaker 3: get that it's not my money. But these are the 574 00:33:56,518 --> 00:33:58,718 Speaker 3: kind of things to be more exact that I think 575 00:33:58,758 --> 00:34:02,518 Speaker 3: would be great and flashpoint. And I still don't understand 576 00:34:02,558 --> 00:34:07,118 Speaker 3: why it's taken so long, other than maybe baseball manufacturers, 577 00:34:07,118 --> 00:34:09,878 Speaker 3: why you can't get the ball with the built in 578 00:34:09,998 --> 00:34:12,918 Speaker 3: sticky attacking this already with it. I don't if it's 579 00:34:12,958 --> 00:34:15,678 Speaker 3: already been done or being done in another league in 580 00:34:15,678 --> 00:34:16,718 Speaker 3: another part of the world. 581 00:34:17,358 --> 00:34:20,318 Speaker 4: What's to hold up? I know, I guess. I don't know. 582 00:34:20,358 --> 00:34:23,958 Speaker 3: If it's about the way the ball travels, I don't know. 583 00:34:24,078 --> 00:34:25,558 Speaker 3: You know what it's like when it's hit on the 584 00:34:25,558 --> 00:34:28,638 Speaker 3: ground and it picks up, you know, dirt ball in 585 00:34:28,678 --> 00:34:31,318 Speaker 3: the dirt. I don't know where the impact comes from this, 586 00:34:31,398 --> 00:34:36,558 Speaker 3: But why is that not more logical and more further 587 00:34:36,598 --> 00:34:40,838 Speaker 3: along the way regarding coming to the United States and 588 00:34:40,838 --> 00:34:42,838 Speaker 3: playing baseball here. So those are the two things. A 589 00:34:42,918 --> 00:34:46,878 Speaker 3: ball that's got this already built in and or at 590 00:34:46,958 --> 00:34:51,478 Speaker 3: least do this in a manner a little bit more. 591 00:34:52,078 --> 00:34:53,678 Speaker 3: I don't want to use the word casual, but away 592 00:34:53,718 --> 00:34:57,118 Speaker 3: from so that if there's anything that somebody feels as 593 00:34:57,118 --> 00:35:00,558 Speaker 3: a ride, that it could be fixed before guys actually 594 00:35:00,638 --> 00:35:02,878 Speaker 3: run out on the field an attempt to perform I 595 00:35:02,918 --> 00:35:03,438 Speaker 3: agree with that. 596 00:35:04,158 --> 00:35:09,238 Speaker 1: Well, amen to the TACKI or leather baseball, Joe Baseball. 597 00:35:09,398 --> 00:35:12,958 Speaker 1: MLB has been talking about this literally for the six years, 598 00:35:13,318 --> 00:35:16,158 Speaker 1: and they've actually bought the Rollings Company in twenty eighteen. 599 00:35:16,198 --> 00:35:19,718 Speaker 1: They own the company that provides this ball that we're 600 00:35:19,758 --> 00:35:22,358 Speaker 1: talking about. There was a study done over in Japan 601 00:35:22,438 --> 00:35:26,198 Speaker 1: that found that MLB ball is twenty percent slicker than 602 00:35:26,238 --> 00:35:27,798 Speaker 1: the ball that's used in Japan. 603 00:35:28,638 --> 00:35:29,838 Speaker 2: Why can't we get there? 604 00:35:29,998 --> 00:35:32,878 Speaker 1: I mean, we're not reinventing or we're not inventing something 605 00:35:32,918 --> 00:35:36,078 Speaker 1: from scratch. We have something out there that works that 606 00:35:36,438 --> 00:35:37,478 Speaker 1: should be fast tracked. 607 00:35:37,518 --> 00:35:39,878 Speaker 4: Does it not carry as far? Is there something about 608 00:35:39,878 --> 00:35:40,718 Speaker 4: the carrier this ball? 609 00:35:40,838 --> 00:35:45,478 Speaker 1: Now, the ball itself is slightly smaller and slightly lighter 610 00:35:45,478 --> 00:35:50,118 Speaker 1: than the MLB ball, so there are differences. But you 611 00:35:50,158 --> 00:35:52,478 Speaker 1: can't tell me with all the technology we already have 612 00:35:52,638 --> 00:35:55,478 Speaker 1: in this game that we can't solve that problem of 613 00:35:55,558 --> 00:35:59,158 Speaker 1: having a baseball that that is too slick. Let's face it, 614 00:35:59,198 --> 00:36:02,398 Speaker 1: that's the the reality of the baseball is too slick. 615 00:36:02,638 --> 00:36:04,838 Speaker 3: Yeah, if you could get if you could take this 616 00:36:04,998 --> 00:36:09,038 Speaker 3: away from the umpires having to subjectively just try to 617 00:36:09,038 --> 00:36:12,558 Speaker 3: determine which stack you're not tacky. I think that whatever 618 00:36:12,598 --> 00:36:14,998 Speaker 3: you could possibly do to get to that point is 619 00:36:15,038 --> 00:36:17,198 Speaker 3: the right thing to do, There's no question. And if 620 00:36:17,198 --> 00:36:20,718 Speaker 3: you can't get there relatively quick, take it off the field, 621 00:36:21,238 --> 00:36:23,758 Speaker 3: and if you have to hire people within a dugout 622 00:36:23,798 --> 00:36:26,118 Speaker 3: to do these things, I would do that and get 623 00:36:26,118 --> 00:36:31,318 Speaker 3: it away from this obvious shakedown as you're walking off the. 624 00:36:31,278 --> 00:36:33,838 Speaker 2: Field Shakedown Street. I like that, Jill. 625 00:36:34,558 --> 00:36:37,398 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of my favorites by Grateful Dead, by 626 00:36:37,398 --> 00:36:38,718 Speaker 3: the way, one of my favorite songs. 627 00:36:39,158 --> 00:36:41,518 Speaker 5: And I think it's important to note Jim that Max 628 00:36:41,598 --> 00:36:47,718 Speaker 5: Schurzer never performed in a game or the remember the 629 00:36:47,878 --> 00:36:51,998 Speaker 5: umpires before he performed in the third inning, he performed 630 00:36:52,398 --> 00:36:57,558 Speaker 5: after checking and they adjudicated him to reach the standards requested, 631 00:36:58,078 --> 00:37:01,078 Speaker 5: and he threw in the game and got three hitters 632 00:37:01,078 --> 00:37:04,758 Speaker 5: out and walked out. He went out to perform again. 633 00:37:04,918 --> 00:37:08,198 Speaker 5: He wasn't when we use the term the player was 634 00:37:08,318 --> 00:37:11,918 Speaker 5: violating a rule or doing something. Is that in the 635 00:37:11,958 --> 00:37:18,158 Speaker 5: performance of a game, No, before he performed. Before he performed, 636 00:37:18,198 --> 00:37:23,358 Speaker 5: they ruled that his hands were too adhesive, and so 637 00:37:23,558 --> 00:37:26,718 Speaker 5: this was not in the performance of a game. This 638 00:37:26,878 --> 00:37:30,598 Speaker 5: was pre performance that they made this ruling. So when 639 00:37:30,638 --> 00:37:33,198 Speaker 5: people talk about what did Max Schuers or do or 640 00:37:33,278 --> 00:37:35,638 Speaker 5: not do in a game, Max Suers are in the 641 00:37:35,678 --> 00:37:41,198 Speaker 5: third inning through under the approval of the umpires, were said, 642 00:37:41,318 --> 00:37:46,518 Speaker 5: go throw and throw your inning after examination. He did 643 00:37:46,598 --> 00:37:50,158 Speaker 5: not throw in a game where he was using a 644 00:37:50,198 --> 00:37:54,238 Speaker 5: substance or his hands were too tacky and then through. 645 00:37:54,678 --> 00:37:59,478 Speaker 5: So I think he's getting suspended not for performance in 646 00:37:59,518 --> 00:38:07,518 Speaker 5: a game with objectionable tackiness. He's getting suspended for prior 647 00:38:07,558 --> 00:38:13,278 Speaker 5: to performance in the judgment of the umpire to be 648 00:38:13,478 --> 00:38:16,958 Speaker 5: too tacky. And there's a difference there about what that 649 00:38:16,998 --> 00:38:21,478 Speaker 5: suspension should be, because now I have suspension for not 650 00:38:21,678 --> 00:38:25,638 Speaker 5: performance in a game, I have suspension for application of 651 00:38:25,838 --> 00:38:31,078 Speaker 5: Rosley in a manner that they determined subjectively was not 652 00:38:31,518 --> 00:38:34,958 Speaker 5: appropriate and had nothing to do with his performance in 653 00:38:34,998 --> 00:38:35,358 Speaker 5: the game. 654 00:38:35,718 --> 00:38:38,438 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an important distinction that, as you mentioned, he 655 00:38:38,558 --> 00:38:42,078 Speaker 1: was examined before he threw it actually did not throw 656 00:38:42,158 --> 00:38:45,638 Speaker 1: a pitch in that fourth inning. It was a preemptive strike, 657 00:38:45,678 --> 00:38:49,438 Speaker 1: if you will, by Dan Bellino and Phil Cuzy. Apparently 658 00:38:50,158 --> 00:38:53,558 Speaker 1: that didn't matter that there was such a level of 659 00:38:53,598 --> 00:38:56,878 Speaker 1: stickiness to his fingers that they decided he would be 660 00:38:56,918 --> 00:39:00,158 Speaker 1: ejected without throwing a pitch. Scott, I don't know if 661 00:39:00,158 --> 00:39:02,878 Speaker 1: we've cleared up anything other than to point out that 662 00:39:03,958 --> 00:39:06,518 Speaker 1: pardoned upon baseball is in a sticky situation here and 663 00:39:06,598 --> 00:39:09,878 Speaker 1: will continue. This won't be the last time it happens, folks, 664 00:39:11,398 --> 00:39:14,958 Speaker 1: And it's I don't know, it's it's an issue that's 665 00:39:14,998 --> 00:39:17,518 Speaker 1: not going away. And to finish up, Scott, I'm not 666 00:39:17,558 --> 00:39:19,878 Speaker 1: sure if you saw some comments from the Commissioner of 667 00:39:19,918 --> 00:39:23,878 Speaker 1: Rob Manford. He spoke at an event with Associated Press 668 00:39:23,918 --> 00:39:26,838 Speaker 1: sports editors, and I'll reach his quote. You can respond 669 00:39:26,878 --> 00:39:30,958 Speaker 1: to this. Players have been clearly told that combining rosin 670 00:39:31,038 --> 00:39:36,038 Speaker 1: with another substance is not allowed. There are a variety sunscreen, alcohol, 671 00:39:36,078 --> 00:39:39,398 Speaker 1: whatever rosin that's out of the bag, that's on the man. 672 00:39:39,518 --> 00:39:42,518 Speaker 1: You can get that off your hand without alcohol. That's 673 00:39:42,518 --> 00:39:44,878 Speaker 1: a red herring. I want to commend the umpires who 674 00:39:44,878 --> 00:39:47,958 Speaker 1: made multiple attempts to de escalate this. I don't think 675 00:39:47,998 --> 00:39:52,678 Speaker 1: there's any confusion about combining stuff with rosin. That's the 676 00:39:52,718 --> 00:39:59,078 Speaker 1: Commissioner Rob Manford speaking to Associated Press Sports editors event Well, I. 677 00:39:59,038 --> 00:40:01,958 Speaker 5: Would like to see in the rule where mister Manford 678 00:40:02,038 --> 00:40:06,918 Speaker 5: describes where the the player told the umpire was directed 679 00:40:06,918 --> 00:40:10,398 Speaker 5: by the umpires to make his hands left to clear 680 00:40:10,478 --> 00:40:13,918 Speaker 5: off the darkness of his hands. He has to go 681 00:40:13,958 --> 00:40:18,678 Speaker 5: into the dugout and comply with that request. The only 682 00:40:18,758 --> 00:40:21,838 Speaker 5: way he can do that is how does he clean 683 00:40:21,918 --> 00:40:25,158 Speaker 5: his hands and do it quickly so he doesn't hold 684 00:40:25,238 --> 00:40:28,278 Speaker 5: up the game? And the answer is in front of 685 00:40:28,318 --> 00:40:32,078 Speaker 5: an MLB official. He was not told he can't use alcohol. 686 00:40:32,358 --> 00:40:35,478 Speaker 5: There is no rule or notice that he can't use alcohol. 687 00:40:35,838 --> 00:40:40,078 Speaker 5: He does it, goes out and tells the umpire exactly 688 00:40:40,158 --> 00:40:44,438 Speaker 5: what he did with no intent to in any way 689 00:40:44,918 --> 00:40:49,518 Speaker 5: violate any subscribed rule. And there is no rule that 690 00:40:49,678 --> 00:40:53,958 Speaker 5: says anything about the use of alcohol to cleanse a hand. 691 00:40:54,518 --> 00:40:57,518 Speaker 5: It's not using as it's not used in any way 692 00:40:57,598 --> 00:41:00,438 Speaker 5: other than the direction of the umpire to clean his hands. 693 00:41:00,918 --> 00:41:05,758 Speaker 5: And so the suggestion by the commissioner is that this application, 694 00:41:05,998 --> 00:41:10,238 Speaker 5: this duality of rosin and alcohol is something that's subscribed 695 00:41:10,278 --> 00:41:14,998 Speaker 5: in their rules. It's not. It's just the subjective opinion 696 00:41:15,038 --> 00:41:18,438 Speaker 5: of the umpire that he is going to determine whether 697 00:41:18,518 --> 00:41:23,078 Speaker 5: or not he finds that there's characteristics about the tackiness 698 00:41:23,078 --> 00:41:27,358 Speaker 5: of the hand that he so finds passable. And by 699 00:41:27,358 --> 00:41:30,278 Speaker 5: the way, after he did this and told the umpire 700 00:41:30,478 --> 00:41:34,758 Speaker 5: that he did use the alcohol and rosin and reapplied it, 701 00:41:34,918 --> 00:41:38,758 Speaker 5: the umpire found it to be please go ahead and throw. 702 00:41:39,998 --> 00:41:43,958 Speaker 5: So while he's saying that this is something that is objectionable, 703 00:41:43,998 --> 00:41:47,478 Speaker 5: apparently not to the umpire and apparently not subscribed in 704 00:41:47,558 --> 00:41:51,078 Speaker 5: the rule. So I find that all that testimony to 705 00:41:51,078 --> 00:41:54,278 Speaker 5: be beyond what is written in the rules. It is 706 00:41:54,438 --> 00:41:59,318 Speaker 5: subjective again and again is pointing fingers at players, pointing 707 00:41:59,318 --> 00:42:05,358 Speaker 5: fingers of players for not having rules that are subscribed specifically. 708 00:42:05,638 --> 00:42:08,318 Speaker 5: It's like a memo from the astros is that you 709 00:42:08,438 --> 00:42:11,878 Speaker 5: get it in September instead of getting it in the 710 00:42:11,958 --> 00:42:14,438 Speaker 5: off season, so that you know what in the season 711 00:42:14,678 --> 00:42:17,998 Speaker 5: to do or not do. And when we have enforcement 712 00:42:18,078 --> 00:42:21,718 Speaker 5: mechanisms that are tardy and we don't have specific rules, 713 00:42:21,998 --> 00:42:24,838 Speaker 5: you can't go back and determine that players are to 714 00:42:24,838 --> 00:42:28,718 Speaker 5: be penalized. When the rules are not drafted with specificity 715 00:42:28,838 --> 00:42:30,198 Speaker 5: and notice. 716 00:42:29,998 --> 00:42:33,598 Speaker 1: Well said, well, Scott, this is I think it's been educational. 717 00:42:33,758 --> 00:42:36,958 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we've solved anything other than we've certainly 718 00:42:36,998 --> 00:42:39,478 Speaker 1: pointed out what we know is going to be an 719 00:42:39,518 --> 00:42:43,478 Speaker 1: ongoing issue in baseball. So one of the things I 720 00:42:43,518 --> 00:42:45,638 Speaker 1: really respect about you is you're more than just a 721 00:42:45,678 --> 00:42:47,278 Speaker 1: great advocate for your clients. 722 00:42:47,838 --> 00:42:49,958 Speaker 2: You respect the game and I know you want to do. 723 00:42:49,878 --> 00:42:52,518 Speaker 1: What's best for baseball. That's with a small bee, not 724 00:42:52,558 --> 00:42:55,958 Speaker 1: necessarily MLB. And hopefully we can have you back on 725 00:42:56,118 --> 00:42:59,238 Speaker 1: again another time when we talk about some of these 726 00:42:59,718 --> 00:43:03,638 Speaker 1: on field playing issues besides the cont controversies of sticky 727 00:43:03,638 --> 00:43:07,038 Speaker 1: subf So really really really appreciate your time. 728 00:43:07,438 --> 00:43:09,958 Speaker 5: I think the integrity of our team game Tom. And 729 00:43:09,998 --> 00:43:13,038 Speaker 5: when I heard Joe say, what would his reaction be, 730 00:43:14,238 --> 00:43:16,358 Speaker 5: I've got a man who's been in baseball his whole 731 00:43:16,358 --> 00:43:21,198 Speaker 5: Life's been a great manager, you know for multiple years. 732 00:43:21,358 --> 00:43:25,558 Speaker 5: He'd say I'd get thrown out? And why would he 733 00:43:25,638 --> 00:43:28,958 Speaker 5: say that? And the answer is that he's not going 734 00:43:29,038 --> 00:43:33,638 Speaker 5: to let subjectivity affect his team and his players. And 735 00:43:33,678 --> 00:43:37,398 Speaker 5: when we don't have specificity, even a veteran major league 736 00:43:37,438 --> 00:43:43,478 Speaker 5: manor manager is perplexed by judgments that he knows are 737 00:43:43,558 --> 00:43:47,198 Speaker 5: going to vary, and he can't quantify him himself. So 738 00:43:47,278 --> 00:43:50,198 Speaker 5: this has not only to do with players. It has 739 00:43:50,238 --> 00:43:53,478 Speaker 5: to do with men who know how to run a 740 00:43:53,558 --> 00:43:55,918 Speaker 5: team and know the impact on the game and such. 741 00:43:56,038 --> 00:43:58,798 Speaker 5: And for me, that's why, And I thanks for the 742 00:43:58,838 --> 00:44:01,238 Speaker 5: forum tone, but I just think that this is a 743 00:44:01,318 --> 00:44:07,678 Speaker 5: process that clearly is based on Joe's evaluation, is also 744 00:44:08,158 --> 00:44:11,958 Speaker 5: something that needs specificity, and if not, it can't be enforced. 745 00:44:12,158 --> 00:44:14,318 Speaker 4: Oh Scotti, thank you for all that. I appreciate it. 746 00:44:14,358 --> 00:44:18,198 Speaker 3: But yeah, it's I think one of the main duties 747 00:44:18,238 --> 00:44:21,918 Speaker 3: of the major league manager is to protect and you know, 748 00:44:22,358 --> 00:44:25,638 Speaker 3: you'll know when maybe your guy's wrong, and you'll know 749 00:44:26,678 --> 00:44:30,318 Speaker 3: when you need to stand down and let whatever it 750 00:44:30,358 --> 00:44:32,078 Speaker 3: is take its course. But then there's other times you 751 00:44:32,158 --> 00:44:35,358 Speaker 3: know that you can't stand down and you cannot permit 752 00:44:36,718 --> 00:44:40,638 Speaker 3: what you think is kind of an adjust moment. And 753 00:44:40,678 --> 00:44:42,838 Speaker 3: like I said, when it's when it's based on subjectivity 754 00:44:42,918 --> 00:44:47,798 Speaker 3: without any kind of real definition, that's where I would 755 00:44:47,838 --> 00:44:50,838 Speaker 3: probably get a little bit unglued. I don't know if 756 00:44:50,878 --> 00:44:53,958 Speaker 3: that's even an appropriate way to put it, too, but yeah, 757 00:44:54,078 --> 00:44:57,998 Speaker 3: I get it, I get it, and I agree with you, 758 00:44:58,678 --> 00:45:01,238 Speaker 3: and I appreciate your comments to me, but that's true. 759 00:45:01,358 --> 00:45:03,878 Speaker 3: You're as a major league manager. You're there to protect 760 00:45:04,038 --> 00:45:07,998 Speaker 3: your brute all the time, and again say one more time. 761 00:45:08,038 --> 00:45:10,998 Speaker 3: You'll know when it's appropriate to stand down and other 762 00:45:11,038 --> 00:45:11,798 Speaker 3: times when it's not. 763 00:45:12,558 --> 00:45:14,838 Speaker 5: Well. I hope in the future time we're discussing about 764 00:45:15,398 --> 00:45:19,198 Speaker 5: Hall of Fame admission and the importance of defense exactly. 765 00:45:19,318 --> 00:45:22,038 Speaker 2: I look forward to that shot with Keith R. 766 00:45:22,118 --> 00:45:24,318 Speaker 5: Nanders and Andrew Jones. I've got a lot to talk about. 767 00:45:24,718 --> 00:45:25,798 Speaker 4: I'm all about defense. 768 00:45:25,838 --> 00:45:27,838 Speaker 3: When I was with the Rays, I got together with 769 00:45:27,958 --> 00:45:31,078 Speaker 3: Rawlings and in order to really emphasize defense with the Rays, 770 00:45:31,078 --> 00:45:33,638 Speaker 3: I got them to give me a gold glove just 771 00:45:33,678 --> 00:45:35,678 Speaker 3: to put in the clubhouse, just with the guys walk 772 00:45:35,758 --> 00:45:37,678 Speaker 3: by it every day. I think it's the most prestigious 773 00:45:37,718 --> 00:45:42,638 Speaker 3: award in all of baseball to receive a gold glove. Actually, 774 00:45:42,838 --> 00:45:45,758 Speaker 3: we on the wall there in Port Charlotte at the 775 00:45:45,838 --> 00:45:48,078 Speaker 3: half field where guys won for extra ground balls all 776 00:45:48,118 --> 00:45:50,918 Speaker 3: the time. I had our gold glove winners' names put 777 00:45:51,038 --> 00:45:53,278 Speaker 3: on the wall with the gold glove next to their name. 778 00:45:54,358 --> 00:45:56,718 Speaker 3: That's the one I want all my guys to aspire to. 779 00:45:56,758 --> 00:46:00,078 Speaker 3: I want all my regular position players I want you 780 00:46:00,118 --> 00:46:02,758 Speaker 3: to go into the season thinking that I'm going to 781 00:46:02,758 --> 00:46:05,078 Speaker 3: win a Gold Glove, and if you do that, I 782 00:46:05,398 --> 00:46:07,878 Speaker 3: promise your team's going to be pretty successful. 783 00:46:07,758 --> 00:46:08,278 Speaker 5: No doubt. 784 00:46:08,518 --> 00:46:09,078 Speaker 2: Thanks Gatt. 785 00:46:09,078 --> 00:46:11,598 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. It's really helpful. 786 00:46:11,718 --> 00:46:13,518 Speaker 5: Oh, I appreciate it. Tom. Joe always great to see. 787 00:46:13,558 --> 00:46:14,598 Speaker 5: I hope I can see you soon. 788 00:46:14,758 --> 00:46:17,278 Speaker 4: You two buddies, So head everybody for me please, I 789 00:46:17,318 --> 00:46:18,238 Speaker 4: will take care. 790 00:46:18,638 --> 00:46:21,638 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Scott, and we'll be back in a minute. 791 00:46:21,678 --> 00:46:25,558 Speaker 1: We will wrap up this edition this sticky version of 792 00:46:25,598 --> 00:46:37,878 Speaker 1: the Book of Joe podcast. Welcome back to the Book 793 00:46:37,878 --> 00:46:42,358 Speaker 1: of Joe podcast. Joe was fascinating listening to Scott. He 794 00:46:42,438 --> 00:46:47,238 Speaker 1: illuminates a lot of issues with the enforcement problem in 795 00:46:47,278 --> 00:46:48,238 Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. 796 00:46:48,358 --> 00:46:49,678 Speaker 2: They don't think they have a problem. 797 00:46:49,918 --> 00:46:52,398 Speaker 1: I think it's it is, but I'm not sure anything 798 00:46:52,398 --> 00:46:54,878 Speaker 1: can be done about it. But you brought up and 799 00:46:54,918 --> 00:46:58,038 Speaker 1: talked about as well as you can the manager's point 800 00:46:58,038 --> 00:46:58,318 Speaker 1: of view. 801 00:46:58,318 --> 00:46:59,718 Speaker 2: I think that's fascinating as well. 802 00:46:59,758 --> 00:47:02,278 Speaker 1: I had some people say, why wasn't Buck shaw Walter 803 00:47:02,398 --> 00:47:06,398 Speaker 1: out there arguing mo more and vociferously when his picture 804 00:47:06,478 --> 00:47:07,238 Speaker 1: gets ejected. 805 00:47:07,558 --> 00:47:09,398 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's we're all different. 806 00:47:10,318 --> 00:47:12,638 Speaker 3: He was about just read it differently in that moment, 807 00:47:12,678 --> 00:47:16,038 Speaker 3: he might have been privy to something. Maybe it had 808 00:47:16,078 --> 00:47:18,238 Speaker 3: taken so long, Maybe the umpires have been speaking with 809 00:47:18,278 --> 00:47:19,278 Speaker 3: them in between innings. 810 00:47:19,278 --> 00:47:19,718 Speaker 4: I don't know. 811 00:47:19,798 --> 00:47:24,278 Speaker 3: There's there's different reasons. Again from my perspective, if I 812 00:47:24,358 --> 00:47:27,758 Speaker 3: don't as a manager, there are rules, there's rules, there's 813 00:47:27,798 --> 00:47:29,478 Speaker 3: rules of the game, and there's certain times I've not 814 00:47:29,598 --> 00:47:32,838 Speaker 3: always thought they were thought all the way through well, 815 00:47:33,278 --> 00:47:35,478 Speaker 3: and I would not agree with them. And so then 816 00:47:35,518 --> 00:47:39,398 Speaker 3: I would still fight in that regard, even though I 817 00:47:39,478 --> 00:47:42,998 Speaker 3: know I'm going to lose. So but again, protect your 818 00:47:42,998 --> 00:47:46,158 Speaker 3: broode at all times. I was always about that. And then, 819 00:47:46,158 --> 00:47:48,958 Speaker 3: like I said, in this situation, there is so many 820 00:47:49,038 --> 00:47:52,438 Speaker 3: ambiguities with this. And I listen, I'll Phil cuz he 821 00:47:52,478 --> 00:47:54,518 Speaker 3: was just under show. I'm a big Phil fan, and 822 00:47:54,598 --> 00:47:57,518 Speaker 3: Danny Belino. Danny and I talked all the time. I've 823 00:47:57,638 --> 00:48:00,718 Speaker 3: even met his family. These are really good guys. They're 824 00:48:00,758 --> 00:48:04,118 Speaker 3: you know, straightforward, up and up and outstanding what they do. 825 00:48:04,238 --> 00:48:07,118 Speaker 3: So i'd have to like get kicked out. You know, 826 00:48:07,438 --> 00:48:10,318 Speaker 3: when you really like umpires, You've spoken to them, have 827 00:48:10,358 --> 00:48:11,678 Speaker 3: been around them a long time, you don't want to 828 00:48:11,758 --> 00:48:14,358 Speaker 3: argue with them. But this is a situation that maybe 829 00:48:14,398 --> 00:48:17,358 Speaker 3: sometimes you have to. So yeah, I think it's gonna 830 00:48:17,398 --> 00:48:21,118 Speaker 3: happen again. I think by the fact that these guys 831 00:48:21,278 --> 00:48:25,678 Speaker 3: did call up Max, it's going to possibly embolden other 832 00:48:25,798 --> 00:48:28,998 Speaker 3: umpires to do something like that. For instance, there's even 833 00:48:29,078 --> 00:48:31,798 Speaker 3: umpires I would argue that when it comes down calling 834 00:48:31,838 --> 00:48:34,358 Speaker 3: you back. There's always been certain umpires that'll call block 835 00:48:34,398 --> 00:48:36,318 Speaker 3: and guys that will not. And to me, it was 836 00:48:36,358 --> 00:48:38,878 Speaker 3: always about some guys can see it and some guys cannot, 837 00:48:39,478 --> 00:48:41,478 Speaker 3: and that's that's that's part of their skill set. 838 00:48:41,518 --> 00:48:42,238 Speaker 4: Some are better. 839 00:48:42,078 --> 00:48:46,238 Speaker 3: Balls right umpires than others. Everybody's different, and it's hard 840 00:48:46,278 --> 00:48:50,958 Speaker 3: to without being critical, to talk about that publicly in 841 00:48:50,958 --> 00:48:53,198 Speaker 3: a sense that who's better at one thing than another? 842 00:48:53,238 --> 00:48:55,078 Speaker 4: But it just happens to be a fact and true. 843 00:48:55,518 --> 00:48:58,678 Speaker 3: So all this stuff is going to continue and until 844 00:48:59,118 --> 00:49:02,438 Speaker 3: maybe another method comes along that's more specific or exact. 845 00:49:03,118 --> 00:49:04,318 Speaker 4: I think it's going to accept read a. 846 00:49:04,278 --> 00:49:06,678 Speaker 1: Little bit, well, Joe, I'm hoping you have something to 847 00:49:06,718 --> 00:49:08,438 Speaker 1: take us out here to end this edition of the 848 00:49:08,478 --> 00:49:10,958 Speaker 1: Book of Joe Podcasts. And I was really hoping maybe 849 00:49:10,998 --> 00:49:17,438 Speaker 1: you ventured into nineteen seventy one making the boys sticky fingers. 850 00:49:17,638 --> 00:49:23,758 Speaker 4: Wow, right, Why didn't they do that? Can't go there? 851 00:49:24,038 --> 00:49:27,238 Speaker 3: Wow, I'd write, oh my god, so good. You know 852 00:49:27,278 --> 00:49:28,918 Speaker 3: he's seventy nine years old right now. 853 00:49:28,798 --> 00:49:31,838 Speaker 4: Which means I'm I'm supposed to be managing for another 854 00:49:31,878 --> 00:49:33,518 Speaker 4: ten years. So we'll see what happens. 855 00:49:34,958 --> 00:49:37,558 Speaker 3: But I went with Franklin delan or Roosevelt, and it's 856 00:49:37,678 --> 00:49:40,918 Speaker 3: I think it is apropos. It is common sense to 857 00:49:40,998 --> 00:49:44,358 Speaker 3: take a method and try it. If it fails, admit 858 00:49:44,438 --> 00:49:47,958 Speaker 3: it frankly, and try another. But above all, try something. 859 00:49:48,598 --> 00:49:49,398 Speaker 3: I think it applies. 860 00:49:50,078 --> 00:49:52,558 Speaker 2: I think it sticks, definitely applies. 861 00:49:52,758 --> 00:49:56,398 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no shame in making mistakes. Baseball is a 862 00:49:56,478 --> 00:50:00,318 Speaker 1: game built on mistakes. That's just another word for perseverance. 863 00:50:00,438 --> 00:50:02,918 Speaker 4: Right. I do it all the time, that is make mistakes. 864 00:50:03,038 --> 00:50:05,158 Speaker 2: I love it. We'll see next time, Joe. 865 00:50:04,958 --> 00:50:06,638 Speaker 4: All right, brother, be welcome. Doculated. 866 00:50:14,438 --> 00:50:17,598 Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. 867 00:50:17,878 --> 00:50:22,758 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 868 00:50:22,958 --> 00:50:24,758 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.