1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Yes, I'm back again, this time to bring 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: you a really interesting conversation I just had with journalists 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: Kenna Letta about his new book, Hollywood Ending RB Weinstein 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: and the Culture of Silence. Kent's connection to weinstein story 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: goes all the way back to two thousand two, when 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: he wrote an in depth profile of him for The 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: New Yorker magazine. Now. At the time, he confronted Weinstein 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: about allegations of sexual assault, but wasn't ultimately able to 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: convince any of the women involved to go on the record. 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: It would take another fifteen years for the full story 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: to come to light through Jodie Cant and Megan Twoey's 12 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: reporting for The New York Times, as well as Ronan 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: Pharaohs for The New Yorker. For his new book, Ken 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: revisits the story. It's a fascinating portrayal of Weinstein's life 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: and career. He also tries to answer so many of 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: the lingering questions about what exactly motivated Weinstein to commit 17 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: such horrific acts. Did you feel me ambivalent in some 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: ways about Harvey because I know it was important for 19 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: you to write about a person can as a multidimensional 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: human being, and not just as this grotesque monster we've 21 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: come to know in recent years. No, that that was 22 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: a real challenge. I was not writing about a cardboard 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: cutout figure. Biography should not feel like a prosecution brief. 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: You want to capture a whole man. And this was 25 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: a guy who was a monster, but he was also 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: a very talented man who brought to the screen an 27 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: incredible array of movies. And the relationship with the brother, 28 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: his use and abuse of power, the role of his mother, 29 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: and what happened in his childhood, all those were we're 30 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: really pregnant for me to explore. And it's something you've 31 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: been exploring for gosh ken twenty years, because you wrote 32 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: that New Yorker profile back in two thousand two. You 33 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: confronted him about allegations of sexual assault back then and 34 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: he denied it. Tell me about that conversation. And that confrontation, well, 35 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 1: the conversation it was. It was our last interview. It 36 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: was a small conference room at one of his offices. 37 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: And I said, Harvey, tell me about how you abuse 38 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 1: Rowena Chew at the Venice Film Festival. And he stood 39 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: up and I was seated at a small conference they 40 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: at lea set up over me, clenched his fists, his 41 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: lower lip was quivering, and he started screaming at me, 42 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: You're going to ruin my marriage to Eve. You're going 43 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: to destroy my three young teenage daughers privacy and shame them. 44 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: And this was a consensual affair. And I broke it off, 45 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: and she was threatening to expose my family and I 46 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: had to stop. And at that point, Sauce, I'm seated. 47 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: That was an easy target him to throw a punch at. 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: I stood up and faced him, and at that point 49 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 1: Harvey really surprised me because what he did was he 50 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: started to cry. He literally, and I don't mean a 51 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: tear rolling down his cheek, I mean bawling, crying out loud. 52 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: This is terrible. You can't write this. It's just awful. 53 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: And I had hoped to write it, but I couldn't 54 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: get to grow in a chew or the other woman's 55 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: Elda Perkins uh to talk to me. I tracked Zelda 56 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: down to Guatemala where she was raising horses, and she 57 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: she said, I signed, I can't talk. They both signed 58 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: nondisclosure agreements and they challenged them and and but we 59 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: David Remnick, the editor the New Yorker said, we don't 60 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: have anyone on the record. We're not the National enquire 61 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: we can't run this story, and I totally agree with it. 62 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: Was also a very different time than two thousand two, 63 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: wasn't it, ken Um. I mean, and I don't say 64 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: that in a way that's particularly laudatory. I mean, it 65 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: was a time when stories like this made the rounds, 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: and I mean not just in Hollywood, but in various 67 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: media outlets as you and I know well, and it 68 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: it just wasn't taken as seriously, wasn't well. One of 69 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: the reasons the subtitle of my book is the Culture 70 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: of Silence, is that people knew or should have known, 71 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: and kept their mouth shut, and this allowed Harvey to 72 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: continue to abuse women. When when he was revealed to 73 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: be a sexual in October of two thousand seventeen, over 74 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: one woman came out of the closet and said, he 75 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: did it to me too. That was amazing. So people, 76 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: I think the same thing would not happen today, and 77 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: that since you're absolutely right, Katie, I think many people today, 78 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 1: because of the exposure of people like Harvey and many 79 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: other men, would not put up with it. They were 80 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: They would blow the whistle up. And but you know, 81 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: something similar is happening with Donald Trump today. I mean, 82 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is claiming he won an election that they 83 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: lost by seven million votes, and the Republican Party overwhelmingly 84 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: is fearful of challenging Well, people were fearful of challenging 85 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein too. Of course, you give a lot of 86 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: credit to Jodie Cant and Megan Tuey, who did an 87 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: incredible job exposing Harvey in the New York Times, as 88 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: did Ronan Pharaoh, who you helped in terms of introducing 89 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: him to David Remnick at The New Yorker. How frustrating 90 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: was that for you? What did you feel like this man, 91 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: this is the one that got away because you you 92 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: do not convey any kind of ill will at all 93 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,239 Speaker 1: or even frustration that they got the story you almost got. 94 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: In two thousand two, I was off doing a book 95 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: on another subject. I was not competing with them. I 96 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: was thrilled when Ronan came to me, interviewed me, and 97 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: I said, what had he gotten? He told me this 98 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: is he was doing a f NBC at the time. 99 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: He said, I've got three women on camera saying Harvey 100 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: raped or sexually assaulted me. I've got five women on 101 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: camera but shielded the name shielded, and I've got the 102 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: audio tape of the Italian model who Harvey's grabbed her 103 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: breasts in two thousand and fifteen. I said, my god, 104 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: you broke in the case. I was. I was thrilled 105 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: by it. And it wasn't competitive because I wasn't I 106 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: wasn't chasing the same story they were at that point. 107 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: So I was just filled that this guy was going 108 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: to be stopped. You were at first a little skeptical 109 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: about Ronan Pharaoh because of his position on Woody Allen 110 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: and uh sexually assaulting his sister Dylan, and you thought 111 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: he might be a zealot rather than an objective journalist. 112 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: But he convinced you that that wasn't the case. How 113 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: did he do that? Well, he just asked good questions, 114 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: and he wasn't certain about some things. He just he 115 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: sounded to me more like a skeptical reporter than a 116 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: zella And I was thrilled. And when I called Remnick 117 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: and said, I think Ronan was broken the case and 118 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: we should you should look at him for The New Yorker, 119 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: the word I used was I said, David, he's judicious, 120 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: and he convinced me he was, and he still convinces 121 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: me he was, and is. I worked for NBC, of course, 122 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: as you know, Ken, for gosh twenty plus years, and 123 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: I've always been intrigued, fascinated, and quite frankly a bit 124 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: confused about NBC's role in in basically, you know, shutting 125 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: down this story. You write, two conclusions seem unassailable. First, 126 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: NBC killed a story even though Ronan Pharaoh had solid 127 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: evidence that Harvey Weinstein assaulted women. Second, NBC confided to 128 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: Rvy Weinstein before telling Ronan Pharaoh his story was dead. 129 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: You know, you give a number of theories about why 130 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: NBC sort of reacted the way it did. From Noah 131 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: Oppenheim didn't want to piss Harvey off because he had, 132 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, was the screenwriter for Jackie and wanted to 133 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: keep the doors open to his movie career too, that 134 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: Harvey might have some goods on that lower and he 135 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: was using that to threaten NBC if they went forward 136 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: with the piece. Um, you know, now that you've done 137 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: so much reporting on it, Ken, what do you think 138 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: about the way NBC handled this story. I think it's 139 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: a disgrace to it animal story. I don't know why 140 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: they killed Ronan's story, but I know this they claim. 141 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: And at one point someone came up to me. I 142 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: was doing Morning Joe one morning. They said, would you 143 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: have lunch with this maka mock at NBC? And I said, yes, 144 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: but you have to keep his name off the record, 145 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: which I have, and I recount what he said to 146 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: me at our lunch, and he said, Ronan didn't have 147 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: the story at NBC. I had two women from Date 148 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: Lines screen where he had, and he didn't have it. 149 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: He only got the story when he went to The 150 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: New Yorker. So when the story was reported, they said, 151 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: Ronan says this an NBC says that. I said, but wait, 152 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: this is a third party to go to to find 153 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: out who's telling the truth. So I went to the 154 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: New Yorker and I talked to Ronan's editor, Deirdre, and 155 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: I said, Deirdre, when when Ronan came to you in 156 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: August of two thousand seventeen, what did he bring to you? 157 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: And she said to me, he brought three women on 158 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: camera saying they were abused. He brought five women who 159 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: said they were shield They were shielded. But they said 160 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: they were abused, and he brought the Italian model audio tap, 161 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: so the evidence was there. And Harvey's people acknowledged that 162 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: they were told by NBC at least a week before 163 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: Ronan was told that the story was dead. So those 164 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: two facts to me are on a sell and and 165 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: and put NBC in a very bad order. Now why 166 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: NBC made the decision. We talked about the theories that 167 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: I present. I don't know the answer to that, but 168 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: I but it's your smells. When we come back, Ken 169 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: and I talk about power dynamics and how they often 170 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: feed into sexual harassment and even assault. This book, as 171 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: I mentioned, isn't just about Harvey's transgressions Weinstein's transgressions. You're 172 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: giving a comprehensive account of his life and career. I 173 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: found the childhood stories really fascinating because I'm very interested 174 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: in generational trauma and how the way you're shaped as 175 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: a child really impacts you later in life. But you 176 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: you talk about how it was really challenging to see 177 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: this whole person, and you say you didn't want to 178 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: write about a hard board cutout. But some people have 179 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: questioned whether someone like Harvey Weinstein deserves a deep dive 180 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: and a three sixty assessment by someone of your stature. Well, 181 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: I mean someone in a review in the Washington Post 182 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: that was that was you know, complimentary to me the report. 183 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: The person who reviewed, college professor Nedollis said, why do 184 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: we Why are you making us a monster sympathetic? I'm 185 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: not making a monster sympathetic. I'm portraying who are the monster? 186 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: But I'm also portraying a guy who distributed or produced 187 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: movies like Shakespeare and loved my left foot, sex lives 188 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: and video tape, the crying game. You can go on 189 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: and on and how do you do that? Was it just? 190 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: Was it because he was a monster or does he 191 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: have some talent? What was his talent? I think we 192 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: just want to know that. Well, they should want to 193 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: know that biography is about a whole person's life, not 194 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: just about a slice of So he was a talented monster, oh, 195 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: no question, he was a talent us and by the way, 196 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: also a monster who was capable of charm and charisma 197 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: and and and that's part of the story too. And 198 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: by saying it, you're not making him a sympathetic character. 199 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: You're just mak him a whole character, a human being. 200 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that childhood. His mother, Miriam was one 201 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: tough cookie. His father Max was kind of a disappointment 202 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: to his wife and to his family, sort of never 203 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: made made as much money as Miriam wanted to. Meanwhile, 204 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: she was just a screamer, would denigrate her boys. Um 205 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: And I'm curious how you think she shaped Harvey because 206 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: one of the things I found interesting about the book, 207 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: Ken is you did talk to a lot of experts, 208 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: psychologists and people who are knowledgeable about sociopaths and and 209 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: and and why people behaved this way and the forces 210 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: that shaped them. So what is your take on the 211 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: role Miriam played on Harvey's behavior as an adult. I 212 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: don't think there's any question that that the yelling that 213 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: was so common in the house, so common by the 214 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: way that Harvey's friends played poker at a different house 215 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: every weekend, but they would never agree to play at 216 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: the Weinstein house. Why because they said Miriam yelled too much, 217 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: it was too oncome Harvey of fat, Harvey stopped eating 218 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: that Harvey this Harvey that she was just a yeller. 219 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: And if you look at Harvey in the office, even 220 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: Bob in the office when they started merrimax. They were 221 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: constantly yelling and creating enormous fear in the people who 222 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: weren't for them and the people who came in contact 223 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: with them. But that doesn't explain Harvey's sexual perversions. And 224 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: I wouldn't dare to make a claim that Miriam is 225 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: responsible for for his sexual diversions, but I think she's 226 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: responsible for normalizing yelling and screaming in an office. Well, 227 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: the sex really isn't about sex, though, Ken, It's about power. 228 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: So don't you think maybe feeling so disempowered as a child, 229 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: and feeling so small and worthless in some ways by 230 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: a parent who basically berated him constantly, um that that 231 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: somehow he went and again you know, I'm not a psychoanalyst, 232 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: but somehow he went searching for validation and he got 233 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: that through unbridled and unchallenged power. I am. I am 234 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: very wary of jumping off that bridge because to me, 235 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: it risks psychobabble, which I don't want to get into. 236 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: I mean, the professional people I talked to, psychologists all 237 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: were careful to say, this is what we know about 238 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: sexual debncy, what we know about people who are rape women. 239 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: But we but we want to be clear, Ken, we're 240 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: not talking about Harvey Meisen, who has not not been 241 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: a patient about our We know we want to keep 242 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: a distance. And I feel the same way. I don't. 243 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it is plausible that that Miriam bears some 244 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: responsibility for his behavior. Yes, do I believe that it 245 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: wasn't power the word I would use his conquest rather 246 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: than power. Harvey needed to conquer people. And it was 247 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: verbally conquer them in negotiations, conquer them or women, conquer 248 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: them in some ways. It was less about sex with women. 249 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: That was just conquering them. And and and in the 250 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: end I came to the conclusion, and talking to psychologists 251 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: led me to this conclusion. Bar he was a sociopath. 252 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: The three definitions of a sociopath. The three basic definitions 253 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: are narcissism. Harvey qualifies lack of empathy. If you watch 254 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: them in the trial, as I did every day when 255 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: those women were testifying with tears in their eyes. Sometimes 256 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: he fell asleep. He wasn't paying, he wasn't paying careful 257 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: with him, It wasn't reaching him in his gut in 258 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: any serious way. And and the third is lack of guilt. 259 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: And Harvey has no guilt. Harby feels like he's a victim. 260 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: To this day, he thinks he's a victim, not a villain. 261 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: Tell us about his relationship with Bob, because of course 262 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: they have the same mom, grew up in the same household. 263 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: But Bob was a different ball of wax in many ways. 264 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: And you write about Harvey is having a quote unhinged, 265 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: shakespeare like relationship with Bob. Can you talk about that 266 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: dynamic a little bit, kennon what you discovered. They shared 267 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: a room in Flushing, Queens. Uh. They were very close. Um, 268 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: Bob is two years younger than Harvey. Uh. They started 269 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: Merriamax together as equal partners. Bob came up with the 270 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: idea of the name of Merrimax after Miriam and Max Rum. 271 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: And everyone knew that if you want the decision, you 272 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: had to go only to Bob or Harbor. You couldn't 273 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: you couldn't go around them. They were They talked five 274 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: times a day at least. But at some point Bob 275 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: became increasingly frustrated with Harvey. He thought he was a 276 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: narcissist and spending too much time on his own self 277 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: promotion and less time on the movie business, and also 278 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: then getting diverted, starting talk magazine, talk books, investing in 279 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 1: the fashion industry, investing in television, getting away from what 280 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: his major talent was, which was movies, and then spending 281 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: money because he was out of control. Harvey has impulse 282 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: control issues, and so he would just spend and spend 283 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: private planes, you know, picking up checks, lunch tabs for people, 284 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: dinner as you and Bob, who was much more of 285 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: a business and it was frustrated. But Bob also another 286 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: change in Bob. Bob was Bob was a fearsome person. 287 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: I saw he was initially, but Bob became an alcoholic 288 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: at some point and went into therapy treat alcoholics anonymous, 289 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: and he came to be a very reflective, self and 290 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: exploring kind of a person. And he was constantly telling Harvey, Harvey, 291 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: you're a sex act. Harvey stopped cheating on your wife. 292 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: You know, he didn't, he says, he didn't know that 293 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: Harvey was raping a woman. But nevertheless, he became much 294 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: more self aware, and he constantly was frustrated that Harvey 295 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: was not self aware. And so one day in two 296 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, and I recount this in the book, at 297 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: a meeting of the board with Harvey, and which I 298 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: have the tape of Harvey said fire my brother. He 299 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: wented to fire Bob, and Bob wasn't on the goal. 300 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: Bob didn't know about the evil partners. And then some 301 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: weeks later Bob Harvey sucker punched, breaking his nose. It 302 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: was quite extraordinary, but Bob was in it kind of. 303 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: It was like a bad marriage. One day he would 304 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: wake up and said, well, I think the marriage worked out, 305 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,479 Speaker 1: And the next day wake up and said, I got 306 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: a divorce my my spouse. In the end, and when 307 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: Harvey was exposed in October two thousand seen, Bob provided 308 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: the critical vote to fire Harvey and was extremely helpful. 309 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: Obviously in writing this book for you, you spent a 310 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: lot of time with Bob and expressed your gratitude to 311 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: him for being so open and willing to to participate. 312 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: I was. I was very grateful. He spent a notice 313 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: amount of time and gave me such insight not just 314 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: into Harvey, but into marry him and and the early 315 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: days of the business, and and so Bob was a 316 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: very valuable source. I only talked to a lot of people, 317 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: but Bob was was a really valuable source for me, 318 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: but Bob. When Harvey was fired, Bob in effect was fired. 319 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: Bob couldn't even hire a lawyer for an agent because 320 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: his name was Weinstein and he had a scarlet letter 321 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: on him, as as did Harvey. Now he's coming back 322 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: and he's doing some stuff in the movie business, but 323 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: he had a really tough time and he stopped speaking 324 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: to Harvey. They don't speak. And and in my had 325 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: email exchanged with Harvey from prison, and and Bob would 326 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: give me documents of things that Harvey had done. And 327 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: I would confront Harvey with an email exchanges that he 328 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: would dictate his answers to his PR guy. And he said, 329 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: that's not true. And it was just blatantized to me. 330 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: Was it was true? But the question I wanted to 331 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: ask Harvey, and I did an email which he didn't 332 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: answer to answered maybe questions I asked, But the one 333 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: question I really wanted to ask Harvey, when you put 334 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: your head on a pillow at night after raping, Let's say, Jessica, man, 335 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: how did you explain to yourself where you were just done? 336 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: And I suspect that I suspect Harbaby would not have 337 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: been able to give me the answer I would hope 338 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: for from a human being, because I think he would 339 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: say it was consensual and she wanted something for me. 340 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: I wanted something from her, and she she really came 341 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: on to me, and and that's his defense. And he does, 342 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: in fact, you know, talk about sort of this idea 343 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: of these relationships being consensual UM and a lot of 344 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: EMPHASI this has been placed on that UM. He said, 345 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: sometimes I don't know when it's consensual, trying to learn 346 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: maybe I don't recognize by powering these situations. And you 347 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: quote an attorney to Harvey who publicly proclaimed his innocence 348 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: but told you this, Harvey's a sociopath. He's not someone 349 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: who thinks he did anything wrong and is burdened by 350 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: heavy conscience, which can you just said he believes that 351 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: if a woman wants something from him, even if he 352 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: pens her down and rapes her, he thinks it is 353 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: a consensual act. I think that's absolutely right. I Mean, 354 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: one of the things that that UM I keep seeing 355 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: with people who have power, not just in Hollywood, is 356 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: the vain narcissist are very and in Hollywood. One of 357 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: the things that's really different is that you're surrounded by 358 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: young attractive women, unlike say the auto business. And it's 359 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: very easy for some of these powerful men to confuse 360 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: a compliment. Oh, Mr Weinstein, that was a wonderful movie. 361 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: Almost the Weinstein that was just a great speech you made. 362 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: To confuse a compliment with a come up, and to 363 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: think these women really want to climb in bed with me? Well, 364 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: wasn't it ever thus in the Hollywood studio system? Until 365 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't and perhaps still is. You quote Elia Kazan's 366 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: autobiography of Life where he says all young actresses and 367 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: that time and place were thought of his prey to 368 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: be overwhelmed and toppled by the mail. And he adds 369 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: that all these moguls like Sam Goldwyn and Louis B. 370 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: Mayer quote went by a simple rule and a useful one. 371 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: Do I want to fuck her? Basically was saying these 372 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: studio heads were standing in for mail movie goers. You know, 373 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: in many ways, Harvey was operating in a world where 374 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: it was, as one of his victims said, the casting 375 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: couch on acid. And you know, I mean it was this. Obviously, 376 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: he took it way further than most people. As you said, 377 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: more than a hundred women accusing him of sexual assault. 378 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: But how much did the system enable him and embolden 379 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: him to behave this way? Ken? He thought this was 380 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: normal and and the system allowed him to think it 381 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: was normal, No question about that. But the only point 382 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: I would make the casting couch as as you're pointing 383 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: out a long history in Hollywood and Eli Kazan's book, 384 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: which is a wonderful read, by the way, but and 385 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: that Harvey subscribed to that. You do I want to 386 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: sleep with before I cast an actress. Is she attractive 387 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 1: enough to want to sleep with her? No question? But 388 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: there's a difference between casting couch and rape. Rape is 389 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: a criminal effect. I was found guilty in a criminal 390 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: chial and and that's different casting casting. I don't know, Ken, 391 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: I mean that assumes that if some I don't know 392 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: about that. Actually, I think that if you went back 393 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: in time, Ken and looked at some of these women 394 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: who were in positions of much less power than some 395 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: of these big cheeses, and they were you know, against 396 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: their will, you know, maybe they didn't charge rape. But 397 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: but I don't I don't think a lot of those cases. 398 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm obviously theorizing here we're consensual No, there's 399 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: no Louis B. Mayer abused Judy Garland and she was 400 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: a young actors. There's no question about that. And was 401 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 1: that right? It was certainly not consensual. It was not 402 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: casting couch. It was more than that. So there are 403 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: many examples in Hollywood of over the years of people 404 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed, but hard, but 405 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: physically throwing a woman down on the bed and ripping 406 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: off the clothes that was That's what Harvey did, and 407 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's a criminal offense. And it's different 408 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: than sexual harassment or casting couch or I want something 409 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: from you if you want to be in this movie. 410 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: I guess. I guess it depends on what actually happened 411 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: on that couch, right, And I'm not defending it. I mean, 412 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: it's still a gruesome thing to do, but right, different 413 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: is what is all I'm saying. Yeah, well, let's talk 414 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: about some of the executives at Mirror Maps publicist agents, Bob, 415 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: you know, talk about the environment that existed at that 416 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: company that allowed Harvey to pretty much behave this way. 417 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: And I was struck by many people saying we thought 418 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: he was cheating on his wife that he was not faithful, 419 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: that there was a lot of infidelity, But we didn't 420 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: know he was forcing himself on on these people. We 421 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: didn't know he was raping these people, sexually assaulting them, 422 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: and you know, undoing his bathrobe and exposing himself. And 423 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,959 Speaker 1: I remember Jody and Megan had one thing where he 424 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: like masturbated into a potted plant. I don't get this 425 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: whole thing, Ken, but that's probably for another podcast. But 426 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: I mean, how did he get away with doing what 427 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: he was doing for so long? And was it sort 428 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: of wilful ignorance on the part of the people around him. Well, 429 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: certainly it was will fall ignorance on the part of 430 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: some Let me tell you Forrids a couple of stories. 431 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: I quote executors like Mark Iill and some others books 432 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: saying they had they would never allow their attractive young 433 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: secretaries or assistance to meet alone with Harvey. Weis why, 434 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: clearly they knew he was perfectly capable of physical abuse, 435 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: not just casting catch stuff, but literally assaulting women. I 436 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: tell the story about Hilary Silver who comes for a 437 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: job and you in the late nineties at Merrimax, and 438 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: she she goes in and She's in the elevator with 439 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: Harvey and he Caeesar's a very attractive woman, and he says, 440 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: what do you do? Who are you? What are you 441 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: doing something here for an interview with human resources? He said, 442 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: come and see me. After she goes for interview, she 443 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: walks down to his office with the head of human resources, 444 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: Harvey without asking the human resources head how how she 445 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: do points to Hillary and says, you're hired. She then 446 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: goes on a vacation trip she had long plan. She 447 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: comes back three or four weeks later and she gets 448 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: a call invited to have drinks with with the head 449 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: of human resource with human resources executive, someone of one 450 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: of the four assistants to Harvey and two other executives, 451 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: and she's thrilled. She said, what a welcoming place inviting 452 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: me to have a drink with him the day before. 453 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: I'm just don't work and surprised. She goes to have 454 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: drinks and they say, Hillary, don't come to work here. 455 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: Why because he's going to rape you. He will assault you. 456 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: So and he didn't come to work there. But if Hill, 457 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: if they knew that Harvey was capable, clearly it was 458 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: much more widespread than knowledge that Harvey was physically abusing women. 459 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: And and now do I want to make a blanket 460 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: condemnation that everyone to work that new of course not, 461 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: but clearly some people did and kept them out shut. 462 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: Did he make everyone who worked their sign an nd 463 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: A basically male or female sign NBA never to speak 464 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: ill of the company or as executives? And and that 465 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: that's a blanket statement that you could literally keep everyone 466 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: silent because and we should probably point out ken you know, 467 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: Harvey was enormously powerful in Hollywood. If somebody wanted a 468 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: career in the entertainment business, going against Harvey Weinstein back 469 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: in the day would be tantamount to, you know, basically 470 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: committing career suicide. And Harvey and has stood something that 471 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: Donald Trump understands. They believe that fear is essential to 472 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: having power. People have to fear you, and people feared 473 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: hard and they kept as one of the reasons they 474 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: kept quiet and didn't do it. But the other thing 475 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: Vantagy had he was making really good movies. And if 476 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: you're an ambitious actor director, you want to be in 477 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: really good movie. You don't want to be in the 478 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: sequels The Batman. You might want to do that to 479 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: make a little money, but but to get an Academy Award, 480 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: you want to be in a serious movie. And Mery 481 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: Mix was making serious movies and that was a great 482 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: magnet protracting talent to work for When we come back, 483 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: has Hollywood actually learned? It's Weinstein lesson more with Kenna 484 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: Letta right after this, what do you make of the 485 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: fact that there was a lot of emphasis on the 486 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: idea that some of these women continued to have a 487 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: relationship with Harvey after they were abused. Of course, when 488 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: I was writing my own book and kind of trying 489 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: to um basically metabolize all the stuff that had come 490 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: out about Matt lower Um, that was one of those 491 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: things that I struggled with a bit until I talked 492 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: to a lot of people about the nature of these 493 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: relationships and the psychological component of trying to um justify 494 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: in a victim's mind sort of what had transpired. And 495 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: I'm curious if if writing this book you gained a 496 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: deeper understanding of those dynamics can that are at play 497 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: and situations like this. I did. Indeed, in fact, one 498 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: of the biggest obstacle that the prosecution had to win 499 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: the case against Harvey in a criminal job, was how 500 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: do they explain why women who were going to testify 501 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: against Harvey who claimed he raped them, nevertheless, in some 502 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: cases kept in touch with them, in some cases actually 503 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: had consensual sex with them afterwards. And and it fed 504 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: into Harvey's defensive argument, which is these were consensual and 505 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: these women wanted something for me, and they were ambitious, 506 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: young young women. And one of the ways that the 507 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: prosecution overcame that that problem. They called to the stand 508 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: Dr Barbera's of Temple University and that I talked to 509 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: her actually from my book really smart. And she also 510 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: testified in the Cosby trial as she did in this trial. 511 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: And one of the facts she presented of American women 512 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: who are raped continue to have a relationship with the 513 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: person who raped them. And then the question is why. 514 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: It goes to the heart of what you're saying. Women 515 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: in denial, they blame themselves, they're fearful of doing something, 516 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: they don't want people to know, all sorts of reasons. 517 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: And this is the defense was able to play that 518 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: out by drawing it out of the out of these 519 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: women in the trial. I mean the prosecution. The problem, sorry, 520 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: the prosecution was able to draw out of these victims 521 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: at the trial why they kept silent, why they kept 522 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: in touch with Harvey, And it was very powerful and 523 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: it overcame basically Harvey's defense. I mean, I read your 524 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: book and quite admired it, and and and how you 525 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: dealt with the Matt Lower thing, which was obviously a 526 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: very painful thing for you to go through. And and 527 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: these psychologists, as they did with me, helped me sort 528 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: out because you know, that is such an old chestnut, Ken, 529 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: isn't it that, oh, these women wanted something from him, 530 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: and somehow the blame gets shifted on the women in 531 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: a very sort of misogynistic, patriarchal not to use those 532 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: buzzwords way. And so you know, I think it's been 533 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: so infused in US as a culture that those kinds 534 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: of things are really important to understand the dynamics of 535 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: a sexual assault victim that might explain her behavior. You 536 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: you single out just Command as having the most impactful 537 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: testimony during the trial. Why was her testimony, in your view, Ken, 538 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: such a game changer? Well, I was, as you was 539 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: saying this, I'm so glad you latched onto Jessica man 540 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: here because I thought it was she was the most 541 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: significant witness for the prosecution. She was that the defense 542 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: was hammering her for three days. She was understand and 543 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: she was crying, and she she made a number of 544 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: mistakes and and of keeping in touch with Harvey, of 545 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: seeking his help, and she was obviously complicated as even being. 546 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: And at some point after after Harvey's defense attorney dono 547 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: Return just went at her too much. She stopped crying. 548 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: She looked at the jury and she said, I know 549 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: many of you would question some of the decisions I made, 550 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: and I questioned some of the decisions I made. I 551 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: made some wrong decisions. But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 552 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: one fact is true. Harvey Weinstein raped me. And that 553 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: moment I get chills just when I recounted now, But 554 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: everyone in like Corean, got chills. And the jury who 555 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: had notebooks to take notes, all of them were taking 556 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: notes when she said that. I just think it was 557 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: a moment that was particularly potent. Having said that, the 558 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: male foreman of the jury, Kent, told you that it 559 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: was the testimony of the male witnesses, not the female victims, 560 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: that were most pivotal to their verdict. Can you explain 561 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: that I can't. I really can't, because you know, one 562 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: of the slogans that meet some people in me too 563 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: push forward, believe women, I mean, which I think is 564 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: a journalist is crap. I mean, if you tell me 565 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: believe what the president or mayor governor says, I would say, hey, 566 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: wait to say no. That the right slogan is listened 567 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: to women. And and I was surprised that he was 568 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: saying he basically wasn't listening to what he was saying, 569 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: is that Harvey's One of the Harvey's defense a former 570 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: producer said that acknowledged that Harvey was a sex addict, 571 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: which was a powerful moment front page in the New 572 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: York Post headlines that day after he said that certainly, 573 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: and then the foreman of the jury said, I was 574 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,399 Speaker 1: bothered that Harvey Weinstein sometimes didn't seem to be paying 575 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: attention or falling asleep. And one of the things that 576 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: was really interesting to me about Harvey throughout the trial, 577 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: he was passive. It wasn't Harvey take charge, Harvey siss hands, 578 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: which was a slogan used to describe him. It was 579 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,280 Speaker 1: a passive party, slumping in his chair, falling a sleep. 580 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes it was quite extraordinary. And then the former of 581 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: the jury said one other thing. He said, I wanted 582 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: to hear from Harvey. We said, I wanted to testify. Now, 583 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: his defense lawyers knew not to put him on the 584 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: stand because the DA would have just gone at him 585 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: with so many other things that didn't even come up 586 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: in the trial of his behavior, which the judge allowed 587 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: them to do. So. But anyway, you're right, he focused 588 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: on men not women. Yeah, and what what who were 589 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: the key man who he thought really had an impact 590 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: on the verdict? Well, this this lawyer, not lawyer, this 591 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,240 Speaker 1: producer who Harvey brought on, who claimed that Annabelle Secure, 592 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: the actress who claimed that Harvey raped her, um that 593 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: she that in fact she told confided to him at 594 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: the time, I did something really bad. I had sex 595 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: with Harvey, weins, claiming that it wasn't rape, who was 596 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: consensual and and and but then the prosecution prosecutor got 597 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: him to acknowledge that, well, I know, my friend Harvey's 598 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: a sex at and you know that. It was like 599 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: a bomb in the court when he, I mean, the 600 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: defense one of the seven people who are going to 601 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,879 Speaker 1: speak for Harvey and defense comes out and says he's 602 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: a sex at it basically acknowledging in effect, he's guilty 603 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: of things. It was really an amazing moment. But that 604 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: was that was that was a key witness. You talk 605 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: about me too, And I know you talk about a 606 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: study of Hollywood that was commissioned and Anita Hill was 607 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: in charge of it, and certainly this is something that 608 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: I followed closely. Has Hollywood really changed? Um, what is 609 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,879 Speaker 1: your sense of that? I mean, in the short term, 610 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: it's changed. I mean people. I mean you could talk 611 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: to studio executives or producers that I'll tell you they 612 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: don't want to meet alone with the woman to find 613 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 1: a plane woman where they meet, they keep their door open, 614 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 1: but they're very sensitive. They not how they're perceived. And 615 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: clearly any number you know, the number of men have 616 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: been shamed and basically you know, assaulted as as perverts 617 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: is astonishing people. Right now Paul Haggis is dealing with that. 618 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 1: The director Paul Haggis at one of many many people 619 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: married brutality of the chef. I meant, right right, you 620 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: just gotta less moons. I mean you go down the 621 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: list of uh, in fact, you do. I know I 622 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: read the page and I was like, Wow, that is 623 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people. It is a lot of people. 624 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: But the question becomes an answer to your question, Katie, 625 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: is this a long term effect? Will it have a 626 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 1: long term effect? I hope it does, But will it 627 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: I don't um. I also thought it was interesting that 628 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: you posited something that got Matt Damon in a lot 629 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: of trouble in the early days of Me Too, that 630 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: there are gradations of offenses and not everyone is Harvey Weinstein. 631 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: You know, they're probably the top offenders. And then there 632 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: are people whose lives have been destroyed, like that poor 633 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: professor at Dartmouth who you write about, who um, you know, 634 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: took his own life. He was awfully accused and and 635 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: they committed suicide. Yeah, but you know, even people who 636 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: are not false accuses, who are who are guilty of misbehavior. Um, 637 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: if Harvey's a felony, some of that misbehavior is a misdemeanor. 638 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: It's not excusable. But if those people are willing to 639 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: acknowledge they did a terrible thing and they're sorry for it, 640 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: and every form we believe in the part of system 641 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 1: pardons in prisons. I don't believe in the death belt. 642 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: I mean yet we put many people to death and 643 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: we don't allow them to to have a chance to say, hey, 644 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: I really made a mistake here and I've changed and 645 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: let me show you how I've changed and so and 646 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: I think we grouped, as you suggested, too many people 647 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: together with Harvey. Harvey is extreme less mumbez, what he 648 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: did is is close to that. But some of the 649 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 1: other people, I mean Mike Areskies, the former AP who 650 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: forcibly kissed a woman, alf Al Franken, who is forced 651 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: to resign. I mean, it's not comparable what they did. 652 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,439 Speaker 1: Do you think there is redemption for people like Matt 653 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: Lower and Charlie Rose? It's very hard when you're that 654 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: age to come back. I think there's better chance for 655 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: redemption someone in their forties or early fifties. But it's 656 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: just I mean, Charlie Rose is eight, Matt is in 657 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: his sixties. Um, it's just tough. And also then the 658 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: question becomes are they apologetic? Are they contrite? Are they 659 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 1: are they acknowledging that they did something wrong? And if 660 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: they don't, there's no redemption. What did you learn from 661 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 1: this whole interrogation into the the life at the heart 662 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: and the soul if if he has either of Harvey Weinstein. 663 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: I mean, when you were done with this book, Uh, 664 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,720 Speaker 1: how did you feel about Harvey? I felt the way 665 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: Bob Weinstein felt when he described to me, which I 666 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,240 Speaker 1: used at the end of the book. He said, there's 667 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: no Harvey. He has no ability to be reflective, to 668 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: be introspective, to to look at what he's done and 669 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: and and the shame he's brought. I mean, his three 670 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,720 Speaker 1: daughters don't speak to him, his ex wife doesn't speak, 671 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: he doesn't speak to Bob Weinstein, his brother doesn't speak 672 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,919 Speaker 1: to former friends and no longer his friends. And yet 673 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 1: Harvey sits there convinced that he's a he's a victim, 674 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 1: and that and that people everything is unfair. If you 675 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: sat in that courtroom and watched his he asked to 676 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: speak before the judge sentenced them, and he stood up 677 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: and made one of the most remarkable talks. First of all, 678 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: he turned to the women who the six women were 679 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: testified against the received in the first row, and he said, 680 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: have great feelings for these people. We had great times together, 681 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: and they're they're thinking themselves great times together. Who what 682 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: are you talking about? And then are we suddenly switched 683 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,879 Speaker 1: into we live in an Econdo McCarthy period where men 684 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: are being subjected and you know, thrown out and and 685 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: treated as if they're they're monsters, and it's so unfair. 686 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: It's like the McCarthy period. And I'm a victim of 687 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: that is what he said. My words, not his, but 688 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: that's that's what he was saying. And to sit there 689 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: and listen to that, it just it was stupefying that 690 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 1: this guy is so divorced from reality. And that's what 691 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 1: Bob was saying at the app A big thank you 692 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: to Kenna Letta. His book is called Hollywood Ending Harvey 693 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,439 Speaker 1: Weinstein and the Culture of Silence, and it's out now. 694 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I 695 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,319 Speaker 1: Heart Media and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers Army 696 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. 697 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements and Adrianna Fasio. The show is 698 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about 699 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,800 Speaker 1: today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, 700 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to Katie Currek dot com. You 701 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: can also find me at Katie Curic on Instagram and 702 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I 703 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 704 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H