Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to
Speaker 1: this episode, I want to let you know that you
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Speaker 1: to Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm
Speaker 1: Michael Lewis. Bankman Freed was worth tens of billions of
Speaker 1: dollars before ftx is cryptocurrency exchange came apart at the scenes,
Speaker 1: and now he's being tried for financial crimes. They could
Speaker 1: send him to prison for the rest of his life.
Speaker 2: I'm Lydia Jean Kott. It's the evening of October sixteenth,
Speaker 2: and if you've been listening to our show, you know
Speaker 2: that I spend every day at the courthouse we're putting
Speaker 2: on the trial. Today was honestly supposed to be pretty uneventful,
Speaker 2: but it turned out to be anything But I called
Speaker 2: Michael Lewis on my lunch break to explain what happened.
Speaker 3: This call is now being recorded. Hi, there you are.
Speaker 3: I think what happened this morning? Who's on the stand?
Speaker 4: We all thought it was going to be not at
Speaker 4: all a big day, So I actually came in kind
Speaker 4: of later and I checked him with the photographers.
Speaker 3: I was like, why are you guys even here?
Speaker 4: And they were like, just forget maybe a picture of
Speaker 4: Sam's parents. But yeah, Mishad took the stand.
Speaker 3: So he's the one by far I know the most
Speaker 3: of the other insiders. I mean I spent endless time
Speaker 3: with him, and he's the one who I'm least sure
Speaker 3: of how he's going to be, and I assume he's
Speaker 3: going to be on you usual, Like, it's so personal.
Speaker 3: He's still in Sam since he was fourteen, and he's
Speaker 3: so close to the family that it's just it's a
Speaker 3: really peculiar situation. So I just kind of wonder how
Speaker 3: he would be on the stand, And so what did
Speaker 3: you think?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's interesting. She actually said he was always intimidated
Speaker 4: by Sam at first, and then when I asked him
Speaker 4: to follow up, he talked about how I think the
Speaker 4: quote I wrote down is Sam is a formidable character, brilliant.
Speaker 4: I always had a stuck for him. Over time that eroded.
Speaker 4: I became distressful.
Speaker 3: What was his demeanor to me?
Speaker 4: She looked confident and I checked in. I talked to
Speaker 4: the reporters who were in the courtroom when he came
Speaker 4: in because I was in the overflow, and they said
Speaker 4: that he walked in for the comfortably too. I mean
Speaker 4: I could see him, you know, he was visiting a
Speaker 4: bit in his seat. He like, is that kep thing
Speaker 4: where you like pushed their glasses up right when she
Speaker 4: sat down. And then the first half was all about
Speaker 4: Sam's spending and how it made that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, is everywhere atturn. He's trying to shut down
Speaker 3: Sam buying stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And he talked about, yeah, he would have had
Speaker 4: a fight about it, and Nishad found it humiliating, and
Speaker 4: that Sam told Nishad that the real insidious problem was
Speaker 4: disagreeing with him.
Speaker 3: Basically.
Speaker 2: The prosecution also asked Nashad to tell the story of
Speaker 2: a Super Bowl party in La Sam was there, Nishad
Speaker 2: said to consider giving millions of dollars a venture capital
Speaker 2: to K five, an investment company led by the host
Speaker 2: of the party, Michael Kivas. Nashad testified that he was
Speaker 2: against this investment and that it was an example of
Speaker 2: this kind of reckless spending that made him uncomfortable. Nashad
Speaker 2: testified that Sam disagreed. He said being connected to Kivas
Speaker 2: would bring in quote infinite connections. For FTX, I recapped
Speaker 2: what happened for Michael, and he told me he was
Speaker 2: at that party.
Speaker 3: I was at that dinner.
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, I told you this.
Speaker 3: At the end of dinner, Michael Kieva said, you've got
Speaker 3: to meet Hillary and I never met I never met
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton. And he brought me over and Hillary was
Speaker 3: she was She's like, look at me. She says, like,
Speaker 3: what are you doing here? Because everybody else was so famous.
Speaker 3: And I said, I said that there's this guy. There
Speaker 3: were eighty people there, though. I said, there's this guy
Speaker 3: in there who I'm thinking about writing about. And she
Speaker 3: says the guy with the hair, the guy with the hair.
Speaker 3: And I said, how did you how did you know that?
Speaker 3: She goes, She says, I thought he's exactly a character
Speaker 3: for you. It was a really funny exchange.
Speaker 4: That is funny that shows she's a fan. It was
Speaker 4: funny because Michead had to go through and say, like,
Speaker 4: who all these people were? So he said Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 4: you know, former presidential candidate, and Sprig Kendall and Chris Jenner.
Speaker 4: He said, I honestly could not tell you what they.
Speaker 3: Do, which made anybody else. Did they have Bezos there?
Speaker 4: Ye ye, yes, he's on there.
Speaker 3: Did they have Leo DiCaprio, He's on the list. Chris Rock?
Speaker 4: Chris Rock was not on the list.
Speaker 3: How about that? I can give you a better list.
Speaker 3: All right, Well send me anything when you come out.
Speaker 3: I'm really curious about the shot I I to be continued.
Speaker 2: Why after I spoke to Michael, I headed back into
Speaker 2: the courthouse and a lot more happened. There's one moment
Speaker 2: that I want to highlight. Nishade testified that at a
Speaker 2: certain point in September twenty twenty two, Sam suggested shutting
Speaker 2: Alameda down. At this point, Caroline said it was impossible
Speaker 2: because Alameda owed Ftex customers too much money. Nishad said
Speaker 2: that he was really startled to hear this, and he
Speaker 2: called for a meeting with Sam, Gary, Caroline, and Nishad.
Speaker 2: Sam made some excuse and didn't come to that meeting.
Speaker 2: At that meeting, Gary and Caroline explained to him how
Speaker 2: deep in the whole Alameda was. Nishad said he was
Speaker 2: horrified to hear this, and he immediately wanted to talk
Speaker 2: to Sam about it. He said that he hardly ever
Speaker 2: spoke to Sam one on one, but this seemed like
Speaker 2: a time where it seemed important too, and he wanted
Speaker 2: to speak to him in a place where they wouldn't
Speaker 2: be interrupted, So he asked to speak to him on
Speaker 2: the balcony of the penthouse where they lived. At this point,
Speaker 2: the prosecutors showed a picture of the balcony, which is
Speaker 2: pretty amazing. There's a pool, there's these baskets, there's these
Speaker 2: chaise lounges, and he described how Sam lay down in
Speaker 2: one of these chairs, and Nishad was kind of urgently pacing.
Speaker 2: Nashad was freaking out about all the money that Alameda
Speaker 2: owed FTX, and Sam said that he too had been
Speaker 2: worried about it. In fact, he said, quote, this has
Speaker 2: been taxing me for five or ten percent of my
Speaker 2: productivity for the past year, which is a different vibe
Speaker 2: from Nishad, who when he heard about this money, said
Speaker 2: Jesus fucking Christ. He asked Sam what the plan was,
Speaker 2: and Sam said that they were going to try and
Speaker 2: raise money to cover the hole. And afterwards, Nishad says
Speaker 2: he was deeply disturbed and he felt betrayed. He said
Speaker 2: that he felt like five years of blood, sweat and
Speaker 2: tears of working towards something that he thought was good
Speaker 2: had turned out to be evil. He said that ever
Speaker 2: since that moment, he wanted to quit, but Sam made
Speaker 2: him feel like FTX needed him and he was afraid
Speaker 2: that if he left everything would come tumbling down. There
Speaker 2: was a lot more that happened. Nashad talked about ftx's
Speaker 2: endorsement deals, how Sam told him to backdate certain financial documents,
Speaker 2: and he discussed his political ordinations. We'll get to all
Speaker 2: of that and more in greater depth later this week,
Speaker 2: So keep listening, and if you haven't, leave a rating
Speaker 2: and a review. It helps others find the show.
Speaker 1: This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Lydia gen Kott,
Speaker 1: Lydia Jancott is our court reporter, Catherine Girardeau, and Nisha
Speaker 1: Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our
Speaker 1: music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of
Speaker 1: stell Wagon's Symphonet Judging Sam is a preduction of Pushkin Industries.
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