WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Nishad Singh Takes the Stand

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, I want to let you know that you

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<v Speaker 1>of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin

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<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Lewis. Bankman Freed was worth tens of billions of

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<v Speaker 1>dollars before ftx is cryptocurrency exchange came apart at the scenes,

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<v Speaker 1>and now he's being tried for financial crimes. They could

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<v Speaker 1>send him to prison for the rest of his life.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Lydia Jean Kott. It's the evening of October sixteenth,

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<v Speaker 2>and if you've been listening to our show, you know

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<v Speaker 2>that I spend every day at the courthouse we're putting

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<v Speaker 2>on the trial. Today was honestly supposed to be pretty uneventful,

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<v Speaker 2>but it turned out to be anything But I called

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<v Speaker 2>Michael Lewis on my lunch break to explain what happened.

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<v Speaker 3>This call is now being recorded. Hi, there you are.

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<v Speaker 3>I think what happened this morning? Who's on the stand?

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<v Speaker 4>We all thought it was going to be not at

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<v Speaker 4>all a big day, So I actually came in kind

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<v Speaker 4>of later and I checked him with the photographers.

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, why are you guys even here?

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<v Speaker 4>And they were like, just forget maybe a picture of

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<v Speaker 4>Sam's parents. But yeah, Mishad took the stand.

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<v Speaker 3>So he's the one by far I know the most

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<v Speaker 3>of the other insiders. I mean I spent endless time

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<v Speaker 3>with him, and he's the one who I'm least sure

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<v Speaker 3>of how he's going to be, and I assume he's

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<v Speaker 3>going to be on you usual, Like, it's so personal.

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<v Speaker 3>He's still in Sam since he was fourteen, and he's

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<v Speaker 3>so close to the family that it's just it's a

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<v Speaker 3>really peculiar situation. So I just kind of wonder how

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<v Speaker 3>he would be on the stand, And so what did

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<v Speaker 3>you think?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's interesting. She actually said he was always intimidated

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<v Speaker 4>by Sam at first, and then when I asked him

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<v Speaker 4>to follow up, he talked about how I think the

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<v Speaker 4>quote I wrote down is Sam is a formidable character, brilliant.

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<v Speaker 4>I always had a stuck for him. Over time that eroded.

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<v Speaker 4>I became distressful.

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<v Speaker 3>What was his demeanor to me?

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<v Speaker 4>She looked confident and I checked in. I talked to

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<v Speaker 4>the reporters who were in the courtroom when he came

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<v Speaker 4>in because I was in the overflow, and they said

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<v Speaker 4>that he walked in for the comfortably too. I mean

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<v Speaker 4>I could see him, you know, he was visiting a

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<v Speaker 4>bit in his seat. He like, is that kep thing

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<v Speaker 4>where you like pushed their glasses up right when she

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<v Speaker 4>sat down. And then the first half was all about

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<v Speaker 4>Sam's spending and how it made that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, is everywhere atturn. He's trying to shut down

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<v Speaker 3>Sam buying stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And he talked about, yeah, he would have had

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<v Speaker 4>a fight about it, and Nishad found it humiliating, and

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<v Speaker 4>that Sam told Nishad that the real insidious problem was

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<v Speaker 4>disagreeing with him.

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<v Speaker 3>Basically.

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<v Speaker 2>The prosecution also asked Nashad to tell the story of

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<v Speaker 2>a Super Bowl party in La Sam was there, Nishad

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<v Speaker 2>said to consider giving millions of dollars a venture capital

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<v Speaker 2>to K five, an investment company led by the host

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<v Speaker 2>of the party, Michael Kivas. Nashad testified that he was

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<v Speaker 2>against this investment and that it was an example of

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of reckless spending that made him uncomfortable. Nashad

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<v Speaker 2>testified that Sam disagreed. He said being connected to Kivas

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<v Speaker 2>would bring in quote infinite connections. For FTX, I recapped

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<v Speaker 2>what happened for Michael, and he told me he was

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<v Speaker 2>at that party.

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<v Speaker 3>I was at that dinner.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, wow, I told you this.

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<v Speaker 3>At the end of dinner, Michael Kieva said, you've got

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<v Speaker 3>to meet Hillary and I never met I never met

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<v Speaker 3>Hillary Clinton. And he brought me over and Hillary was

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<v Speaker 3>she was She's like, look at me. She says, like,

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<v Speaker 3>what are you doing here? Because everybody else was so famous.

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<v Speaker 3>And I said, I said that there's this guy. There

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<v Speaker 3>were eighty people there, though. I said, there's this guy

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<v Speaker 3>in there who I'm thinking about writing about. And she

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<v Speaker 3>says the guy with the hair, the guy with the hair.

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<v Speaker 3>And I said, how did you how did you know that?

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<v Speaker 3>She goes, She says, I thought he's exactly a character

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<v Speaker 3>for you. It was a really funny exchange.

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<v Speaker 4>That is funny that shows she's a fan. It was

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<v Speaker 4>funny because Michead had to go through and say, like,

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<v Speaker 4>who all these people were? So he said Hillary Clinton,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, former presidential candidate, and Sprig Kendall and Chris Jenner.

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<v Speaker 4>He said, I honestly could not tell you what they.

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<v Speaker 3>Do, which made anybody else. Did they have Bezos there?

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<v Speaker 4>Ye ye, yes, he's on there.

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<v Speaker 3>Did they have Leo DiCaprio, He's on the list. Chris Rock?

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<v Speaker 4>Chris Rock was not on the list.

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<v Speaker 3>How about that? I can give you a better list.

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<v Speaker 3>All right, Well send me anything when you come out.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm really curious about the shot I I to be continued.

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<v Speaker 2>Why after I spoke to Michael, I headed back into

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<v Speaker 2>the courthouse and a lot more happened. There's one moment

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<v Speaker 2>that I want to highlight. Nishade testified that at a

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<v Speaker 2>certain point in September twenty twenty two, Sam suggested shutting

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<v Speaker 2>Alameda down. At this point, Caroline said it was impossible

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<v Speaker 2>because Alameda owed Ftex customers too much money. Nishad said

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<v Speaker 2>that he was really startled to hear this, and he

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<v Speaker 2>called for a meeting with Sam, Gary, Caroline, and Nishad.

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<v Speaker 2>Sam made some excuse and didn't come to that meeting.

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<v Speaker 2>At that meeting, Gary and Caroline explained to him how

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<v Speaker 2>deep in the whole Alameda was. Nishad said he was

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<v Speaker 2>horrified to hear this, and he immediately wanted to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to Sam about it. He said that he hardly ever

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<v Speaker 2>spoke to Sam one on one, but this seemed like

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<v Speaker 2>a time where it seemed important too, and he wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to speak to him in a place where they wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be interrupted, So he asked to speak to him on

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<v Speaker 2>the balcony of the penthouse where they lived. At this point,

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<v Speaker 2>the prosecutors showed a picture of the balcony, which is

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<v Speaker 2>pretty amazing. There's a pool, there's these baskets, there's these

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<v Speaker 2>chaise lounges, and he described how Sam lay down in

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<v Speaker 2>one of these chairs, and Nishad was kind of urgently pacing.

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<v Speaker 2>Nashad was freaking out about all the money that Alameda

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<v Speaker 2>owed FTX, and Sam said that he too had been

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<v Speaker 2>worried about it. In fact, he said, quote, this has

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<v Speaker 2>been taxing me for five or ten percent of my

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<v Speaker 2>productivity for the past year, which is a different vibe

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<v Speaker 2>from Nishad, who when he heard about this money, said

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus fucking Christ. He asked Sam what the plan was,

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<v Speaker 2>and Sam said that they were going to try and

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<v Speaker 2>raise money to cover the hole. And afterwards, Nishad says

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<v Speaker 2>he was deeply disturbed and he felt betrayed. He said

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<v Speaker 2>that he felt like five years of blood, sweat and

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<v Speaker 2>tears of working towards something that he thought was good

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<v Speaker 2>had turned out to be evil. He said that ever

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<v Speaker 2>since that moment, he wanted to quit, but Sam made

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<v Speaker 2>him feel like FTX needed him and he was afraid

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<v Speaker 2>that if he left everything would come tumbling down. There

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<v Speaker 2>was a lot more that happened. Nashad talked about ftx's

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<v Speaker 2>endorsement deals, how Sam told him to backdate certain financial documents,

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<v Speaker 2>and he discussed his political ordinations. We'll get to all

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<v Speaker 2>of that and more in greater depth later this week,

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<v Speaker 2>So keep listening, and if you haven't, leave a rating

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<v Speaker 2>and a review. It helps others find the show.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Lydia gen Kott,

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<v Speaker 1>Lydia Jancott is our court reporter, Catherine Girardeau, and Nisha

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<v Speaker 1>Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our

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<v Speaker 1>music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of

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<v Speaker 1>stell Wagon's Symphonet Judging Sam is a preduction of Pushkin Industries.

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<v Speaker 1>Got a question or comment for me, There's a website

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