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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to

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Speaker 1: this episode, I want to let you know that you

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Speaker 1: can listen to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial

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Speaker 1: of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin

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Speaker 1: Plus subscriber, and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive

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Speaker 1: tons of other top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm

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Speaker 1: Michael Lewis. Bankman Freed was worth tens of billions of

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Speaker 1: dollars before ftx is cryptocurrency exchange came apart at the scenes,

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Speaker 1: and now he's being tried for financial crimes. They could

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Speaker 1: send him to prison for the rest of his life.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lydia Jean Kott. It's the evening of October sixteenth,

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Speaker 2: and if you've been listening to our show, you know

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Speaker 2: that I spend every day at the courthouse we're putting

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Speaker 2: on the trial. Today was honestly supposed to be pretty uneventful,

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Speaker 2: but it turned out to be anything But I called

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Speaker 2: Michael Lewis on my lunch break to explain what happened.

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Speaker 3: This call is now being recorded. Hi, there you are.

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Speaker 3: I think what happened this morning? Who's on the stand?

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Speaker 4: We all thought it was going to be not at

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Speaker 4: all a big day, So I actually came in kind

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Speaker 4: of later and I checked him with the photographers.

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Speaker 3: I was like, why are you guys even here?

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Speaker 4: And they were like, just forget maybe a picture of

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Speaker 4: Sam's parents. But yeah, Mishad took the stand.

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Speaker 3: So he's the one by far I know the most

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Speaker 3: of the other insiders. I mean I spent endless time

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Speaker 3: with him, and he's the one who I'm least sure

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Speaker 3: of how he's going to be, and I assume he's

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Speaker 3: going to be on you usual, Like, it's so personal.

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Speaker 3: He's still in Sam since he was fourteen, and he's

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Speaker 3: so close to the family that it's just it's a

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Speaker 3: really peculiar situation. So I just kind of wonder how

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Speaker 3: he would be on the stand, And so what did

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Speaker 3: you think?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's interesting. She actually said he was always intimidated

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Speaker 4: by Sam at first, and then when I asked him

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Speaker 4: to follow up, he talked about how I think the

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Speaker 4: quote I wrote down is Sam is a formidable character, brilliant.

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Speaker 4: I always had a stuck for him. Over time that eroded.

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Speaker 4: I became distressful.

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Speaker 3: What was his demeanor to me?

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Speaker 4: She looked confident and I checked in. I talked to

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Speaker 4: the reporters who were in the courtroom when he came

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Speaker 4: in because I was in the overflow, and they said

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Speaker 4: that he walked in for the comfortably too. I mean

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Speaker 4: I could see him, you know, he was visiting a

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Speaker 4: bit in his seat. He like, is that kep thing

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Speaker 4: where you like pushed their glasses up right when she

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Speaker 4: sat down. And then the first half was all about

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Speaker 4: Sam's spending and how it made that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, is everywhere atturn. He's trying to shut down

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Speaker 3: Sam buying stuff.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And he talked about, yeah, he would have had

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Speaker 4: a fight about it, and Nishad found it humiliating, and

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Speaker 4: that Sam told Nishad that the real insidious problem was

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Speaker 4: disagreeing with him.

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Speaker 3: Basically.

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Speaker 2: The prosecution also asked Nashad to tell the story of

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Speaker 2: a Super Bowl party in La Sam was there, Nishad

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Speaker 2: said to consider giving millions of dollars a venture capital

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Speaker 2: to K five, an investment company led by the host

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Speaker 2: of the party, Michael Kivas. Nashad testified that he was

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Speaker 2: against this investment and that it was an example of

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Speaker 2: this kind of reckless spending that made him uncomfortable. Nashad

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Speaker 2: testified that Sam disagreed. He said being connected to Kivas

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Speaker 2: would bring in quote infinite connections. For FTX, I recapped

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Speaker 2: what happened for Michael, and he told me he was

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Speaker 2: at that party.

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Speaker 3: I was at that dinner.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, I told you this.

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Speaker 3: At the end of dinner, Michael Kieva said, you've got

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Speaker 3: to meet Hillary and I never met I never met

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Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton. And he brought me over and Hillary was

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Speaker 3: she was She's like, look at me. She says, like,

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Speaker 3: what are you doing here? Because everybody else was so famous.

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Speaker 3: And I said, I said that there's this guy. There

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Speaker 3: were eighty people there, though. I said, there's this guy

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Speaker 3: in there who I'm thinking about writing about. And she

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Speaker 3: says the guy with the hair, the guy with the hair.

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Speaker 3: And I said, how did you how did you know that?

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Speaker 3: She goes, She says, I thought he's exactly a character

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Speaker 3: for you. It was a really funny exchange.

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Speaker 4: That is funny that shows she's a fan. It was

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Speaker 4: funny because Michead had to go through and say, like,

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Speaker 4: who all these people were? So he said Hillary Clinton,

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Speaker 4: you know, former presidential candidate, and Sprig Kendall and Chris Jenner.

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Speaker 4: He said, I honestly could not tell you what they.

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Speaker 3: Do, which made anybody else. Did they have Bezos there?

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Speaker 4: Ye ye, yes, he's on there.

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Speaker 3: Did they have Leo DiCaprio, He's on the list. Chris Rock?

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Speaker 4: Chris Rock was not on the list.

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Speaker 3: How about that? I can give you a better list.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well send me anything when you come out.

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Speaker 3: I'm really curious about the shot I I to be continued.

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Speaker 2: Why after I spoke to Michael, I headed back into

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Speaker 2: the courthouse and a lot more happened. There's one moment

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Speaker 2: that I want to highlight. Nishade testified that at a

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Speaker 2: certain point in September twenty twenty two, Sam suggested shutting

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Speaker 2: Alameda down. At this point, Caroline said it was impossible

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Speaker 2: because Alameda owed Ftex customers too much money. Nishad said

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Speaker 2: that he was really startled to hear this, and he

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Speaker 2: called for a meeting with Sam, Gary, Caroline, and Nishad.

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Speaker 2: Sam made some excuse and didn't come to that meeting.

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Speaker 2: At that meeting, Gary and Caroline explained to him how

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Speaker 2: deep in the whole Alameda was. Nishad said he was

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Speaker 2: horrified to hear this, and he immediately wanted to talk

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Speaker 2: to Sam about it. He said that he hardly ever

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Speaker 2: spoke to Sam one on one, but this seemed like

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Speaker 2: a time where it seemed important too, and he wanted

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Speaker 2: to speak to him in a place where they wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be interrupted, So he asked to speak to him on

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Speaker 2: the balcony of the penthouse where they lived. At this point,

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Speaker 2: the prosecutors showed a picture of the balcony, which is

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Speaker 2: pretty amazing. There's a pool, there's these baskets, there's these

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Speaker 2: chaise lounges, and he described how Sam lay down in

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Speaker 2: one of these chairs, and Nishad was kind of urgently pacing.

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Speaker 2: Nashad was freaking out about all the money that Alameda

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Speaker 2: owed FTX, and Sam said that he too had been

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Speaker 2: worried about it. In fact, he said, quote, this has

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Speaker 2: been taxing me for five or ten percent of my

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Speaker 2: productivity for the past year, which is a different vibe

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Speaker 2: from Nishad, who when he heard about this money, said

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Speaker 2: Jesus fucking Christ. He asked Sam what the plan was,

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Speaker 2: and Sam said that they were going to try and

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Speaker 2: raise money to cover the hole. And afterwards, Nishad says

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Speaker 2: he was deeply disturbed and he felt betrayed. He said

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Speaker 2: that he felt like five years of blood, sweat and

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Speaker 2: tears of working towards something that he thought was good

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Speaker 2: had turned out to be evil. He said that ever

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Speaker 2: since that moment, he wanted to quit, but Sam made

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Speaker 2: him feel like FTX needed him and he was afraid

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Speaker 2: that if he left everything would come tumbling down. There

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Speaker 2: was a lot more that happened. Nashad talked about ftx's

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Speaker 2: endorsement deals, how Sam told him to backdate certain financial documents,

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Speaker 2: and he discussed his political ordinations. We'll get to all

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Speaker 2: of that and more in greater depth later this week,

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Speaker 2: So keep listening, and if you haven't, leave a rating

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Speaker 2: and a review. It helps others find the show.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Lydia gen Kott,

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Speaker 1: Lydia Jancott is our court reporter, Catherine Girardeau, and Nisha

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Speaker 1: Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our

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Speaker 1: music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of

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Speaker 1: stell Wagon's Symphonet Judging Sam is a preduction of Pushkin Industries.

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Speaker 1: Got a question or comment for me, There's a website

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Speaker 1: for that atr podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com.

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