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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

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Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, Wherever

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Speaker 1: you are on the world, it is so great to

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Speaker 1: have you here. Before we jump into this week's episode,

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Speaker 1: I have a really exciting announcement. We launched merch last

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Speaker 1: week for the podcast. It was designed in collaboration with

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Speaker 1: my friend Sydney, who was on the show recently back

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Speaker 1: when we did the dating in our twenties episode. She

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Speaker 1: is a local Melbourne artist. We have sweatshirts and tote

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Speaker 1: bags we ship worldwide and it's an amazing way to

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Speaker 1: support the show, to show your love to have a

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Speaker 1: really cool piece of fashion, a cool item to We're

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Speaker 1: out and about, so if you would like to purchase

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Speaker 1: a sweatshirt, a toebag, maybe both, whatever you're feeling, please

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Speaker 1: feel free to go to the link in the podcast

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Speaker 1: description or to the link on our Instagram to get

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Speaker 1: your hands on some really cool merch. This is a

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Speaker 1: bit of a different episode to what we normally do.

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Speaker 1: As much as this podcast is very much centered on

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Speaker 1: psychology and mental health, we don't often talk about specific disorders,

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Speaker 1: and I get requests, you know, quite a bit to

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Speaker 1: talk about conditions like personality disorders or mood disorders, but

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Speaker 1: I do often shy away because I like to create

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Speaker 1: content that I think everyone can relate to and that

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Speaker 1: really brings and breaks down those universal experiences of twenty

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Speaker 1: year olds. But this is a bit different the amount

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Speaker 1: of requests I get for this topic, the amount of

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Speaker 1: personal experiences from friends of mine that I've heard. I

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Speaker 1: just think that we can't talk about our twenties without

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Speaker 1: talking about our attitude and our habits towards food and

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Speaker 1: towards health and exercise. And with that comes a very

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Speaker 1: necessary and I think natural discussion around eating disorders. So

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about it. This is obviously

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Speaker 1: a really sensitive topic for some people. Whether you have

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Speaker 1: a lived experience or you've been impacted by the journey

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Speaker 1: of a close friend or a family member, you know,

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Speaker 1: this condition is so life altering and emotional and personal.

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Speaker 1: So please take a moment to reflect on whether this

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Speaker 1: is the content you need to hear today. It could

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Speaker 1: be triggering. You know, I won't mind if you listen

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Speaker 1: to something else. This episode will still be here when

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Speaker 1: you're in a better headspace, but just something to flag.

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Speaker 1: I think eating disorders don't always receive the amount of factual,

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Speaker 1: reliable attention they deserve, and when they do, it's often

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Speaker 1: in a way that is really romanticized or based in

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Speaker 1: misinformation or stigma. You know, we've all seen depictions of

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Speaker 1: eating disorders in movies and TV shows. We've seen how

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Speaker 1: disordered eating has been glamorized by social media, from Tumbler

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Speaker 1: to TikTok, and how many misconceptions are promoted out there

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Speaker 1: about eating disorders. So we're really here to set the

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Speaker 1: records straight and hopefully provide a new perspective on the

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Speaker 1: impact they have on our twenties, both from a scientific

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Speaker 1: lens but also reflecting on lived experience. I'm really excited

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Speaker 1: to have on a lovely guest for this episode, who

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Speaker 1: will be joining us later on to discuss her own

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Speaker 1: unique path to recovery. She was so incredibly vulnerable and insightful,

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Speaker 1: so I cannot wait for you to hear from her.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that, I really do want

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Speaker 1: to give a bit of that bird's eye view from

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Speaker 1: a clinical psychological perspective of what this class of disorders

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Speaker 1: really is and what it means for people who are

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Speaker 1: going through it, who are experiencing it, you know, not

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Speaker 1: just anorexia and bulimia, which I think is what we

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Speaker 1: typically think of, but also binge eating disorder and orthorexia.

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Speaker 1: We're going to discuss the psychological underpinnings and the origins

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Speaker 1: of eating disorders, whether they emerge from childhood or later

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Speaker 1: triggering events, the different classes of eating disorders and how

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Speaker 1: they impact our emotional and psychological wellbeing, along with some

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Speaker 1: of the opportunities for treatment and for recovery. We're also

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Speaker 1: going to hear from Emily a little bit later on.

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Speaker 1: I think that having someone who has gone through this

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Speaker 1: on the show is so valuable because we often only really,

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Speaker 1: like I said, see it glamorized. So as always, there

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Speaker 1: will be more information and links in the description of

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Speaker 1: this episode. I'm just really excited to share a new perspective,

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Speaker 1: to share some of the science and some of the research.

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Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's dive in and talk about

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Speaker 1: the psychology behind eating disorders. In our twenties, eating disorders

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Speaker 1: may seem like a modern day condition that's kind of

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Speaker 1: been created by recent social fixations with thinness and beauty

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Speaker 1: and calories, but there is so much historical evidence they've

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Speaker 1: existed for quite a while because they aren't just cultural

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Speaker 1: or social constructs. They are very serious mental health conditions

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Speaker 1: that originate from our emotional and cognitive experiences, not just

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Speaker 1: our society's relationship with food at a given time. There

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Speaker 1: are reports of people experiencing symptoms of what we would

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Speaker 1: now label as anorexia or bulimia way back in the

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Speaker 1: fifth century, men and women starving themselves because of mental

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Speaker 1: health conditions or for spiritual purposes before we even had

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Speaker 1: a label for what they were going through. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the first known name for anorexia it actually appeared in

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Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds, and at the time it was called

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Speaker 1: nervous consumption, which is a strange name for it, but

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Speaker 1: the description of the symptoms it really doesn't differ much

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Speaker 1: from our current diagnostic profile eating disorders. As the name suggests,

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Speaker 1: they are primarily related to a class of mental health

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Speaker 1: conditions that pertain to persistent eating habits, behaviors, and compulsions

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Speaker 1: that negatively impact our health, Our emotional state and our

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Speaker 1: general ability to kind of function in all areas of

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Speaker 1: our life. And they are most prevalent amongst people in

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Speaker 1: their twenties. That is, within the typical onset window. It's

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Speaker 1: when symptoms normally climax. And they're also really complex disorders

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Speaker 1: and they're not all made the same. I also think

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Speaker 1: that it's important to note that not all elements of

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Speaker 1: these conditions are solely related to eating. You know, there

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Speaker 1: is a massive cognitive and emotional and mental component to

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Speaker 1: their onset and longevity. It has a lot to do

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Speaker 1: with exercise and a few other things as we'll talk about,

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Speaker 1: But there are three main eating disorders that we would

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Speaker 1: typically say are the most common or that show up

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Speaker 1: in the DSM. So the DSM is the Diagnostic and

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Speaker 1: Statistical Manual of mental disorders. So if you haven't heard

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Speaker 1: about it before, it's essentially like the Bible for all

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Speaker 1: possible mental health conditions, and it's used by clinicians to

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Speaker 1: kind of identify symptoms and provide an explanation to patients. Now,

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Speaker 1: this does not mean that there are not other variations

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Speaker 1: of these disorders. You know, there are only currently three

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Speaker 1: eating disorders in the DSM, but just because other conditions

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Speaker 1: or experiences or symptoms don't have a specific diagnosis, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they don't exist. There can be variation,

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Speaker 1: and it's actually a huge point of contention and debate

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Speaker 1: around eating disorders and the use of the DSM. You know,

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Speaker 1: not every condition is going to present in the exact

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Speaker 1: same way you know with everyone, and have a simple

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Speaker 1: list of criteria is often going to exclude some people

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Speaker 1: who might not fit the mold. But that is obviously

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Speaker 1: a discussion for another time. The three that do appear

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Speaker 1: are anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa, and binge eating disorder. So

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Speaker 1: that's what we're going to talk about today. I think

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Speaker 1: the disorder that we typically think of when we hear

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Speaker 1: the term eating disorder is anorexia. Onset is normally, you know,

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Speaker 1: between the ages of twelve and twenty five, which is

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Speaker 1: really heartbreaking to hear that. You know, children at twelve

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Speaker 1: years old are experiencing this, but really anyone at any

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Speaker 1: age is afflicted by this condition because it is so harsh.

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Speaker 1: It's so harsh on our bodies and it's so hard

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Speaker 1: on our minds. It's characterized by symptoms of extreme dieting

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Speaker 1: accompanied by an intense fear of gaining weight, having a

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Speaker 1: disordered body image, which is eventually means that you don't

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Speaker 1: see yourself the way other people see you. You don't

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Speaker 1: see yourself clearly or objectively, and also drastic weight loss.

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Speaker 1: Now those are the criteria given by the DSM, but

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Speaker 1: drastic weight loss is not always a characteristic of all

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Speaker 1: people with anorexia. And I think just because someone is

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Speaker 1: an underweight or thin, it doesn't mean that they're not suffering.

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Speaker 1: You know, people have different metabolisms, different body structures and shapes.

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Speaker 1: I think it's also worth noting that someone who has

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Speaker 1: just started displaying symptoms of anorexia may still be what

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Speaker 1: we deem a healthy body weight, but it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that they aren't still experiencing distress and experiencing symptoms. These

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Speaker 1: instances where someone is not what we would call underweight,

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Speaker 1: it's known as atypical anorexia novosa, and it occurs in

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Speaker 1: situations in which someone meets all the other qualifications. You know,

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Speaker 1: they have restrictive eating, they might be exercising excessively, but

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Speaker 1: they're not currently underweight. And the thing to note is

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Speaker 1: that there's symptoms the you know, some of the other

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Speaker 1: symptoms other than body weight. Between atypical anorexia and what

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Speaker 1: we would say is typical anorexia, they're all still the same.

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Speaker 1: You know. We see food avoidance, we see obsessive compulsive symptoms.

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Speaker 1: You know, for example, people with this disorder, they may

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Speaker 1: have really ritualistic, compulsive eating habits or safe foods that

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Speaker 1: they form an obsession over. They may have this need

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Speaker 1: for a sense of control or what they put in

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Speaker 1: their bodies, but they also have things like anxiety around

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Speaker 1: food and social situations, which comes off as almost social

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Speaker 1: anxiety or potentially a social phobia, but also things like

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Speaker 1: hair loss, chronic fatigue, insomnia, and anemia. It impacts every

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Speaker 1: facet of our health, not just physical. It's something to

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Speaker 1: really remember and someone doesn't have to appear thin to

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Speaker 1: be experiencing anorexia. I think that's something that we really

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Speaker 1: need to reframe, not just in the psychological community, but

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Speaker 1: also within society. Anorexia is actually one of the most

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Speaker 1: difficult psychiatric conditions to treat, not just in the class

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Speaker 1: of eating disorders, but across the board, and it has

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Speaker 1: one of the highest mortality rates associated with it because

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Speaker 1: this level of dieting puts our body under such intense strain,

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Speaker 1: and it becomes an addiction. These methods for weight loss

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Speaker 1: become coping mechanisms, and they become reinforced when people see

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Speaker 1: what they deem as results. And what essentially happens is

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Speaker 1: that the more they are almost internally and subconsciously rewarded

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Speaker 1: for their behaviors and for their habits, the more ingrained

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Speaker 1: it becomes, the more reliant they become. And it's also

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Speaker 1: a substitute for control over other areas of their life,

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Speaker 1: so it's hard to break free on I don't really

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Speaker 1: want that statement to seem like it's meant to discourage people.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are so many people who have and

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Speaker 1: do and will recover, but it is really worth noting. Also,

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Speaker 1: it's quite interesting because despite being I think, the most

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Speaker 1: thought of eating disorder, it's actually the least common amongst

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Speaker 1: those diagnosed with this condition. So only three percent of

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Speaker 1: people who are diagnosed with an eating disorder would have

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Speaker 1: what we would call anorexia. The most common is actually

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Speaker 1: binge eating disorder at nearly forty seven percent, followed by

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Speaker 1: bulimia at twelve percent. So it's interesting that I think

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Speaker 1: when we think eating disorder, we typically think of someone

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Speaker 1: who was very thin and who starves themselves, which is

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Speaker 1: of course a very much valid part of the community.

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Speaker 1: But it's also important to focus on some of the

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Speaker 1: other conditions that people may have. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: bollimia first. Bolimia has a later typical onset than anorexia,

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Speaker 1: at around twenty years of age, and it does often

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Speaker 1: begin with excessive dieting before we kind of see that

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Speaker 1: slide into what the typical symptoms of bolimia may be.

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Speaker 1: So that is the binging and then purging or fasting

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Speaker 1: that is characteristic of this disorder. So what essentially happens

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Speaker 1: and what people would probably be looking out for if

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Speaker 1: they thought someone was suffering from this is an instance

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Speaker 1: or a repeated pattern of behavior in which someone rapidly

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Speaker 1: consumes food before entering into a period where they try

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Speaker 1: and expel or burn those calories as quick as possible,

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Speaker 1: either through the methods we typically think of, but also

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Speaker 1: by taking laxatives, by avoiding water or excessive sweating like

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Speaker 1: in a sauna or a steam room. Like anorexia, this

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Speaker 1: disorder is also accompanied by an excessive concern about body

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Speaker 1: weight or appearance, and it follows this cycle of kind

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Speaker 1: of normalcy in which someone feels like they're in control,

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Speaker 1: and then a temporary loss of control when consuming excessive

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Speaker 1: amounts of food, followed by anxiety, by guilt, by fear,

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Speaker 1: even and then relief when they are able to purge

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Speaker 1: those calories from their system. And that cycle is what

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Speaker 1: makes this disorder so troubling because it involves the use

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Speaker 1: of food to regulate mood, and it's an important link

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Speaker 1: between all of these disorders. It's not just about food,

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Speaker 1: it's about the use of food as a means for control.

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Speaker 1: People who are living with this disorder, they will often

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Speaker 1: experience a number of other health problems and symptoms, like

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Speaker 1: abnormal heart rhythms due to an electrolyte imbalance from binging

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Speaker 1: and purging, dental issues from the enamel on their teeth

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Speaker 1: being worn down by acidic acid that comes from their

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Speaker 1: stomach nutrient imbalances, and a regular menstrual cycle which is

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Speaker 1: also typical of anorexia, fatigue, burnout, exhaustion, heartburn, ulcers, and

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Speaker 1: anxiety depression so many other things. It's also accompanied by

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Speaker 1: delusions a lot of the time, and this preoccupation with

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Speaker 1: how we look and what we would call is body dysmorphia,

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Speaker 1: so a failure to clearly see what other people see

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Speaker 1: when they look at us, and it has a really

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Speaker 1: close relationship with our self esteem, with our sense of agency,

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Speaker 1: with our sense of security, with our self worth. Bolimia

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Speaker 1: is an interesting disorder because it's actually been suggested across

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Speaker 1: multiple studies that certain individuals may actually have an inherited

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Speaker 1: or genetic predisposition, whereby, if you have a close relative

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Speaker 1: or a parent who was diagnosed with Bolimiana vosa, there

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Speaker 1: is between like a fifty to eighty percent chance that

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Speaker 1: you're more likely to develop symptoms. This is a really

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Speaker 1: interesting insight to me because I think that it shows

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Speaker 1: that these disorders are not just individual, they're not just behavioral,

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Speaker 1: but they all have a lot to do with our

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Speaker 1: genetic blueprint and how our minds operate. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: binge eating disorder. You know, binge eating disorder is actually

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Speaker 1: a relatively newly recognized condition. It's only really been in

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Speaker 1: the DSM for the past five to ten years, which

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Speaker 1: is so surprising to me because nowadays it is more diagnosed,

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Speaker 1: it's more common than breast cancer, it's more common than HIV.

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Speaker 1: It's more common than schizophrenia, but it hasn't always gotten

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Speaker 1: the recognition that it deserves, and I think that really

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Speaker 1: shows how the medical community can sometimes be quite slow

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Speaker 1: to catch up because I think binge eating disorder, unlike

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Speaker 1: anorexia and unlike bulimia, it's not glamorous and I hate

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Speaker 1: to use that word, but glamorous in the sense that

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Speaker 1: there's part of it that is accepted by society. You know,

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Speaker 1: we accept diet culture as part of society, but we

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Speaker 1: don't accept We're very judgmental around people who we deem

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Speaker 1: as overweight with this disorder. I think it's really important

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Speaker 1: to distinguish between occasional overeating and a binge eating disorder.

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Speaker 1: You know, we all have times when we eat past

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Speaker 1: the point of being full, you know, maybe at Christmas

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Speaker 1: or on birthdays, or just because the food is really young.

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Speaker 1: But in those instances, it's not a compulsion. You have control.

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Speaker 1: It's also not a repeated behavior. It's not life altering.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like something that you can't stop, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really important distinction to make. Some

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Speaker 1: of the other core symptoms include eating unusually unusually large

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Speaker 1: amounts of food, often by yourself, or an isolation because

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Speaker 1: of the associated guilt and the associated shame, eating until

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Speaker 1: you are uncomfortable or feel disgusted, feeling like you have

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Speaker 1: no control, And like so many of these disorders that

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Speaker 1: we've talked about, it's often accompanied by social isolation, by

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Speaker 1: problems functioning in your personal life, and occasionally weight related conditions,

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Speaker 1: although that's not always the case. It's much more likely

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Speaker 1: that people who are experiencing binge eating disorder may even

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Speaker 1: be deemed a normal weight and putting that in quotation

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Speaker 1: marks because I think that is very much up for

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Speaker 1: debate what a normal weight means. And unlike other disorders

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Speaker 1: we've spoken of today, binge eating disorder actually has a

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Speaker 1: much later onset, so for women it's in there early

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Speaker 1: to late twenties, and for men it's most typical and

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Speaker 1: onset typically begins during middle age, which is really interesting

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Speaker 1: because I think that we have this misconception that our

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Speaker 1: late teens and our early twenties are the time when

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Speaker 1: eating disorders are most prevalent, but that's really only the

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Speaker 1: case for bulimia and anorexia, which is why I think

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Speaker 1: binge eating disorder is often misunderstood or often not thought

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Speaker 1: of when we think about this class of conditions. There

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Speaker 1: are some really amazing content creators and TikTok's out there

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Speaker 1: who really take us along for their recovery journey. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's really worthwhile to see these people in

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Speaker 1: the media, even if it's social media, because it's important

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Speaker 1: to humanize this disorder and understand it better. Because there

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Speaker 1: are some really brutal misconceptions that you know, it's just

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Speaker 1: for people who have no control or who struggle with

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Speaker 1: their weight, and it isn't really disorder, but it really is.

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Speaker 1: It's diagnosable, and so I think that I would really

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Speaker 1: encourage you to look into the lived experience of people

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Speaker 1: with binge eating disorder. It's just so valuable to really

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Speaker 1: understand where it sits. I want to quickly mention orthorexia

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Speaker 1: so we don't have that much time to really deep

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Speaker 1: dive into it, but I think it's so worth mentioning

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Speaker 1: here because it's a relatively new idea or a relatively

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Speaker 1: new condition. So it was only introduced back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven. It's still not in the DSM, but it's

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Speaker 1: become so much more prevalent recently. So orthorexia. It's also

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Speaker 1: known as clean eating disorder, or an unhealthy obsession with

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Speaker 1: eating healthy and only consuming what we see as clean foods,

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Speaker 1: normally in an effort to maintain one's weight or because

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Speaker 1: of an this obsession with optle nutrition to the point

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Speaker 1: where it negatively impacts our well being. It's not completely understood.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, it's relatively new in the scheme of things,

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Speaker 1: but initial theories have linked it to things like OCD,

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Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive disorder, health, anxiety, and this extreme fixation on

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Speaker 1: the purity or cleanliness of what we put in our bodies.

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Speaker 1: Eating disorders often develop in our teen and younger years,

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Speaker 1: although we know that that's not always the case in

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Speaker 1: all circumstances, and there are a number of researched and

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Speaker 1: hypothesized kind of psychological and environmental or social origins or

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Speaker 1: triggers for eating disorders, ranging from our early childhood experiences

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Speaker 1: to other mental health disorders like anxiety, parental upbringing, and

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Speaker 1: even genetics like we mentioned before, so let's actually start

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Speaker 1: with genetics. We know a lot of mental health disorders

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Speaker 1: like bipolar, depression, anxiety, even schizophrenia. They are more common

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Speaker 1: amongst people who have a close relative who has received

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Speaker 1: a diagnosis, and the same goes for bulimia, the same

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Speaker 1: goes for anorexia and for binge eating disorder. There appears

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Speaker 1: to be some genetic predisposition amongst individuals who experience symptoms,

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Speaker 1: and this also has a lot to do with the

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Speaker 1: release of neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine, which we know

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Speaker 1: is controlled by our genetic blueprint. So studies have shown

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Speaker 1: that people with anorexia or binge eating disorder, they actually

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Speaker 1: may have less serotonin available to their brain and this

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Speaker 1: impacts things like impulse control and impacts things like our

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Speaker 1: relationship with reward like gratification, and therefore our eating habits.

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Speaker 1: There have been some suggestions that this heritability hypothesis, it

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Speaker 1: isn't about biology, It's about exposure. You know, if you

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Speaker 1: have a parent who restricts food, who constantly talks about

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Speaker 1: their weight, you pick up on that because of your

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Speaker 1: close environmental proximity. And a lot of people think that

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Speaker 1: it's not so much biology, but it's about your environment.

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Speaker 1: But there have been studies that have shown, you know,

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Speaker 1: people who have been adopted who weren't raised with their

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Speaker 1: birth parents or twins who have been separated at birth,

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Speaker 1: Their likelihood of developing and eating disorder is genetically linked.

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Speaker 1: But it is an important, I think factor to bring

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Speaker 1: up here. Our social environment is going to be a

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Speaker 1: massive contribute, not just our close family, but our friends,

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Speaker 1: our school environment, the broader context of our cultural and

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Speaker 1: societal environment as well. And it begins young, it begins

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Speaker 1: really young. If close parental or family figures have modeled

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Speaker 1: an unhealthy relationship towards food, whatever that may be, we

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Speaker 1: learn from that, We pick up that behavior. These people

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Speaker 1: are our teachers, they are our role models, and we

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Speaker 1: mimic what they do. You know, if your family is

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Speaker 1: constantly making comments about your weight or someone else's weight,

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Speaker 1: about the food you're eating, the food they're eating, how

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Speaker 1: your clothes don't fit right, how you need to be

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Speaker 1: strict with what you put in your body, that passes

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Speaker 1: on to us. Other research even suggests that childhood bullying

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Speaker 1: is also a massive predictor, but not just amongst kids

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Speaker 1: who experience bullying, but also kids who have bullied. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's always that saying that the bullied becomes the bully, right,

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Speaker 1: Like this same reasons why someone who's been bullied might

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Speaker 1: develop an eating disorder, are the same for those of

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Speaker 1: people who do bully. It's a self esteem thing, and

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Speaker 1: I think also the opinions of our peers are deeply

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Speaker 1: influential and deeply harmful at a young age when we

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Speaker 1: are so vulnerable. But it also comes from even more

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Speaker 1: insidious and inescapable sources like the media. I think, especially

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Speaker 1: in Western cultures like Australia, there are so many socio

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Speaker 1: cultural influences that promote thinness as the main indicator of beauty,

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Speaker 1: as a contributor to our happiness as a desirable trait,

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Speaker 1: and with that it also promotes an unhealthy relationship with

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Speaker 1: food like crash diets like fasting and calorie counting. Repeated

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00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: exposure to this rhetoric, to this perspective, it unconsciously feeds

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00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: into how we see ourselves and not only our relationships

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00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: with our bodies, but also with exercise and with our food.

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00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: These environmental and social causes are often the most common

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00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: triggers I think we think about, but it can be

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Speaker 1: a lot more complicated and nuanced than that. There are

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Speaker 1: certainly personality traits that greatly influence the development of these conditions.

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Speaker 1: Things that have to do with our psychology, things that

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Speaker 1: have to do with our mental health, our emotional state.

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Speaker 1: One of these is OCD, so obsessive compulsive disorder. Like

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Speaker 1: we've mentioned before, this is a tendency to obsess and

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Speaker 1: have intrusive thoughts. So obsessive compulsive of disorder is the

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00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: kind of experience of obsessions and compulsions that bring about

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Speaker 1: a sense of control. And when we think about how

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00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: that relates to eating disorders, a lot of the eating

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00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: habits that we've spoken about, it's not about food. It's

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00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: not always about the calories, it's not always about weight.

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00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: It's about using food as a means to bring about

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00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: control in our lives, especially if you are someone who

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00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 1: has experienced trauma or PTSD, if you've never felt like

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00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: you had power in those situations, food can become a

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00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: substitute for the control that you wish you had. Perfectionism

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00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: is another major contributor, especially in people with anorexia. So

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00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: there is research suggesting that it is an overly represented

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00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: personality trait amongst these individuals, alongside things like low self esteem,

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00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: low self worth, loneliness, anger, anxiety. All of those emotional

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Speaker 1: experiences can be projected onto something within our control, and

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Speaker 1: that is what we eat, what we put in our body.

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Speaker 1: It's not just one thing though, it's not just one factor.

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Speaker 1: It's a risk profile. It's a series of things that

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00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: come together and can be triggered by an event or

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00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: by our environment, and that leads to this pattern of

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00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: symptoms that we associated with eating disorders. I think it's

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00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: really easy to feel like a lot of this is

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Speaker 1: outside our control. Eating disorders are so insidious and difficult

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00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: to treat at times because it's not as simple as

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00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: beauty standards. It's inextricably linked to our emotional and mental state.

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Speaker 1: That's why they're called disorders. And I think it also

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Speaker 1: just goes to show how misunderstood this class of conditions

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00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: can be. There is so much misinformation out there, so

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00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: much unscientific opinions and research, so many random people trying

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00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: to give advice, and I think sometimes it's important to

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00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: take a step back and really look at what the

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00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: science and the research has to say. And here about

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00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: people who have actually gone through this. Here from someone

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Speaker 1: with a real life perspective. So that's what I want

430
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: to do next. I want to bring on our special

431
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: guest to talk us through how an arexia manifested for

432
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: her how it impacted her teen years, her twenties, and

433
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: her path to healing and recovery. I am so excited

434
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: to be able to bring on our amazing guest, Amalia,

435
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: who is the host of the Recovery Talk podcast. It's incredible. Additionally,

436
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: she works as an eating disorder recovery coach and just

437
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: makes some amazing, amazing content, has some amazing lived experience,

438
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: and some amazing insights. Welcome, Welcome to the show. Thank

439
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: you so much for having me. Yeah, of course, I

440
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: feel like your way of talking about not only your

441
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: eating disorder but as a class of mental health conditions

442
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: is really really refreshing. So I was like, I've got

443
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: to I've got to have you on. I really want

444
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: to like start the beginning. So you run this amazing

445
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: podcast called Recovery Talk, and what kind of inspired you

446
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: to kind of begin that? So ten years ago, Wow,

447
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: it's been a while. Ten years ago, I was going

448
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: through my own eating disorder recovery. I was recovering from

449
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: an eract sinagal subdinge approach subtype and my treatment was

450
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: pretty good, but I was told a lot what to do,

451
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: but not why and I'm a person that's so I

452
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: love science. I like knowing why is this happening to me?

453
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: Why do I need to do this right? I wanted

454
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: to know the science of eating disorder recovery right, and

455
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily get that from my treatment. So I

456
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: essentially started heavily researching eating disorders. And I found so

457
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: many things, so many studies, so many articles that were

458
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: so helpful for me, but they were all very well

459
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: going to say, very scientific, and at that point, also

460
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: English is my second language. Especially ten years ago, my

461
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: English was it was okay, but it wasn't completely fluent,

462
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: so a lot of it was very difficult to understand.

463
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: And I had a bit of an audience because I've

464
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: been sharing my eating disorder recovery journey on Instagram, so

465
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: I had a bit of an audience there, and I

466
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: was like, wouldn't it be great to take this very scientific,

467
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: a little bit difficult to understand content about eating disorders

468
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: and the biology of eating disorders right and share that

469
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: with more people. So I started a platform called Let's Recover,

470
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: started as a tumbler, and I would essentially take these

471
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: studies such as for example, Minnesota starvation Study and studies

472
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: about eating disorders and translate them to a little bit

473
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: easier to understand language and share them with a lot

474
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: of people, and that became very popular, and then one

475
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: thing led to another, and eventually I started a podcast

476
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: essentially doing the same thing, talking about the science and

477
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: psychology of eating disorders from a lived experience and also

478
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: as an experience ass and eating disorder recovery cult and

479
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: also someone who has a psychology degree as well. So

480
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: I'm using a bit of different what can I say

481
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: come to the topic in different ways and angles, And

482
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: I absolutely love that because I feel like that's a

483
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: perfect intersection with what we kind of do on this show, right,

484
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: Like there are all these sometimes very inaccessible scientific ideas

485
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: or topics that have a lot of impact on our

486
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: daily lives. So I absolutely love that. I really want

487
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: to understand what you're eating disorder kind of means to you.

488
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: Can you briefly maybe explain you're eating disorder those of

489
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: us who might not be fully across what anorexio novosa

490
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: is and the difference between that and bollimia and other disorders.

491
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: So I started developing and eating disorder when I was

492
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: in my teens and it was kind of fluck training

493
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: a bit between different eating disorders, which is maybe one

494
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: thing that people could be aware of is that and

495
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: eating disorder people tend to very often create very strong

496
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: separations between anorexia, bulimia, binge eating disorder, but actually very

497
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: often they overlap. Right, So I had anorexia and an

498
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: avosa binge perch subtype is my diagnosis, which essentially mean

499
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: that it is predominantly anorexia and very significant restriction, but

500
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: also having elements of binging and then perching afterwards. Right,

501
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like anorexia and bulimia overlapping. I

502
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: started developing that in my teens, and I was I

503
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: was very very sick. I was very very isolated. I

504
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: was very unwell, but also a little bit in denial

505
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: of how bad my eating disorder was. And this is

506
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: also something, interestingly enough, that turns out to be a

507
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: key symptom of an eating disorder, is that people with

508
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: eating disorder tend to be in denial of the severity

509
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: of their illness and also about the fact that the

510
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: illness exists in the first place. Right. So I was

511
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: really struggling, but thankfully eventually I got into treatment it

512
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: was very very it was rough, right, what did outpatient treatment?

513
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, I have been recovery now for ten years,

514
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 1: and it is difficult to understand exactly why I develop

515
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: an eating disorder and what it was about. Very often

516
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: when especially when you come out on the other end

517
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: of having recovered from an eating disorder, you want to know, Okay,

518
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: what was that all about? Right? Why did that happen?

519
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: And I eventually I think it was a combination of

520
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: factors that made me vulnerable. I was quite depressed. I

521
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: had bad mental health during that time, which made me

522
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: more vulnerable. I was struggling with you know, my body image,

523
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,439
Speaker 1: very common when someone is in their teams. And then

524
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: I also think that part of it was also this

525
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: is where the more scientific part of it come in.

526
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: That seems that I had a very abnormal reaction to

527
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: undernourish length. Right. So people with anorexia, when they end

528
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: up in an undernourse state, it tends to it tends

529
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: to set off what I tend to call a switch, right,

530
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: where a person with anorexia will be rewarded for engaging in,

531
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: you know, very restricted behaviors which for people without inorexia

532
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: would not be rewarding at all. Right, So essentially becomes

533
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: a bit of a vicious cycle where my brain would

534
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: reward me for engaging in very restricted behaviors combined with

535
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: a denial of the fact that I was that ill

536
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: in the first place, Right, And then it just became

537
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 1: I was very stuck, right, become very stuck in your state,

538
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: and your brain is still undernourish, can't quite think clearly either, Right.

539
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting perspective to bring in

540
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,479
Speaker 1: terms of the interactions between risk factors. So you talked

541
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: about you had other predisposing mental health conditions, but also

542
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: how the condition is almost promoted by that undernourishment, right,

543
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: Like it is that vicious cycle or that vicious interaction

544
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: that I think a lot of us when we hear

545
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: about eating disorders and we don't have that knowledge or

546
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: that lived experience, or haven't practiced in treating eating disorders,

547
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: don't really understand how nuanced and difficult that interaction was.

548
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: So you developed anorexa, you said, like in your late teens,

549
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: early teens, late teens, yes, late teens, And how did

550
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: that kind of impact your life? You know? I think

551
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: often what we forget is that it's not like everything

552
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: else in your life disappears and it's just a disorder,

553
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: but maybe it does feel like that. So what kind

554
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: of impact did it have on you? I felt that

555
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: the food restriction essensity brought on just life restriction. Right.

556
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: I was very very isolated because at that point, the

557
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: eating disorder became my only friend, right, it was, I was.

558
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: When you're that undernourished, it's very difficult to you know,

559
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: engage in life, engage in friendships, engage in studies in

560
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: the same way that you would if you were renourished. Right.

561
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: And of course different people have different levels of function. Right.

562
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: There are some people who can be very very severe

563
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: with in eating disorder, but they may be completely able

564
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: to keep a job right or do well in studies.

565
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: And the way that it affected me probably the most,

566
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: was just the isolation. Right. I completely lost interest in

567
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: the outer world. Although I was interested in was food.

568
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: The food obsession was extremely strong. And this is actually,

569
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, very much a actually a response to the starvation. Right.

570
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: You see, people when they're very starved, they become very

571
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: very interested in food rights and the food seeking behavior.

572
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: Not necessarily always eating, but things such as cooking for others.

573
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: Obsession with food very very interesting in food that became

574
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 1: my life, right, that was the only thing that I

575
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: found interesting, So very very isolated. But in a way,

576
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how isolated I was because it felt like, oh, yeah,

577
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: but I don't like being around other people right then.

578
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: Not get me wrong, I'm a big introuct but jing

579
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: eating disorder, I just couldn't have meaningful relationship with other

580
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: people because I was so consumed with my eating disorder.

581
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: That's really it's quite sad really that it takes over

582
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: so many other parts of your life. And I think

583
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: that obsession with food thing is is also it's kind

584
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: of like common sense, right, like if you're starving your body,

585
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: your body is immediately going to be seeking out that

586
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: nutrition and creating obsessions. The other interesting thing that I

587
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: came across, like researching this was this idea of safe foods,

588
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: particularly for people with anorexia. And we talked about a

589
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: little bit briefly before, but can you explain that a

590
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: little bit more, because I feel like that's such an

591
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: interesting part of this disorder that isn't really spoken about much. Yes,

592
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: so with anorexia and also with certain other eating disorders

593
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 1: as well. It's very common that the amount of foods

594
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: that the person like, the type of foods the person

595
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 1: can eat without extreme fear, guilt and anxiety response really

596
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: really shrinks. Right, So maybe someone starts cutting out certain foods,

597
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: when then they just cut out more and more to

598
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: the point where they only have a very small amount

599
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: of so called safe foods, right, and save foods are

600
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: essentially foods that the person can eat, often in again

601
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 1: limited amounts, without as much anxiety as certain other foods. Rights,

602
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: sometimes there still could be anxiety even eating the so

603
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: called safe foods, right, So that is essentially what safe

604
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: food is. I had during the worst of my eating disorder,

605
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,720
Speaker 1: and what can I say, The amount of safe foods

606
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: I had was so so small that it was just

607
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: you can't really sustain human life, right And interesting enough,

608
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: when you really really restrict your foods to very few foods,

609
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: then what is very natural is that you're going to start,

610
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, binging on foods that are fall outside of

611
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 1: that safe food repertoire. Right, So I would have binge

612
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: per genorexias. I would restrict myself to a very very

613
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,879
Speaker 1: small amount of very specific safe foods. But then as

614
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: soon as if there was access to other foods, then

615
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: I'll be very scared of eating them because I felt

616
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: like I couldn't control myself around them. Right, And you

617
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: said it said very well, you know that it must

618
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: be a completely natural response when you are restricting your

619
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: food intake to be more obsessed with food and have

620
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: more like food seeking behavior, right, And this is true.

621
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: The problem is that a lot of people eating disorders,

622
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: they think that this response is evidence that they should

623
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: stay away from food. Right. For example, they see a

624
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: really restrict your intake and then they become obsessed with food.

625
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: They binge when, for example, chocolate is available. Then they think, oh,

626
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: this just shows that I should stay away from these foods.

627
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: These are foods are bad. Right. So the constat against

628
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: self fulfilling cycle, where you avoid more foods you have,

629
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: the amount of safe food becomes smaller and smaller, but

630
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: then in response, you start being focusing more on other foods. Right.

631
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: I remember during my INNOREXC I would get so much

632
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: satisfaction out of just reading food recipes, looking at pictures

633
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: of cake. Right. And this is a very normal behavior,

634
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: but in the moment you think that will what is

635
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: going on with me, right, And it just really goes

636
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: to show that I think a lot of people think

637
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: about eating disorders just as the behaviors, so just as

638
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 1: the restriction, but it has so much to do with

639
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: the mind. And you know, you have such an amazing

640
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: scientific knowledge I think about this. So where does that

641
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: fear kind of come from? Like I know in the

642
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: DSM they talk about you, it's primarily a fear of

643
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: gaining weight, It's primarily to do with physical appearance. But

644
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 1: I know it also has a lot to do with control,

645
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: and that fear and anxiety kind of combines with that.

646
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: So can you explain that a little bit? More? So?

647
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: There is disagreements in the field exactly about what is

648
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: this fear? Why do people with eating disorders act so strange?

649
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 1: What is going on there? Right? There is no one

650
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: clear cut answer. But what I would say, from having

651
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: had an eating disorder myself, and also from working with

652
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: people eating disorder and having spoken to so many of them,

653
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: is that the whole fear of fear of fatness, Yeah,

654
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: it maybe a role. And we live in a society

655
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: that's kind of reinforced that, right. We live in a

656
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: quite a fat fulbic society is of course this is reinforced.

657
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: But I think reducing an eating disorder down to being

658
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: just about this morbid fear of weight gain kind of

659
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 1: simplifies and trivializes it. For me, I didn't necessarily like

660
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: weight gain was not necessarily a massive fear for me.

661
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: It was just like I had the fear, but that

662
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: was not like the driving force. The driving force was

663
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: that this rules and rigidity. You know, when you have

664
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: a very undernoish brain, your brain becomes very rigid and

665
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: very you know, you loose out on that cognitive flexibility. Right.

666
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: And the way that I tend to see more the

667
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: fear ass is almost like a phobia. It's like a

668
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: fear response in the brain gone wrong. Right. So normally

669
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: we tend to fear things that are kind of bad

670
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: for us, right. We tend to fear if a big

671
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,439
Speaker 1: bear comes running after us, we're gonna be like, okay, Well,

672
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: fear response kicks in to protect us, right, And I

673
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: see that a lot of times. But with eating disorders

674
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: and is that there is a wrong fear response towards food, right,

675
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: or towards certain foods. So it essentially is a bit

676
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: similar to an anxiety disorder. Right, I tend to sometimes

677
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 1: make people understand just how extreme the food the fear

678
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: can be. It can be kind of like imagine if

679
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: someone is terrified of spiders, is like being in a

680
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: room full of spiders crawling towards you. That is how

681
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: an eating disorder can sometimes feel like, right, and at

682
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: the same time you feel can feel kind of ridiculous

683
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 1: because it's like, why would you be scared of something

684
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 1: as fundament and to ask food? Right? But essentially our

685
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 1: brains don't always make much sense, and the starvation also

686
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 1: reinforce the fear, right, so it becomes a reinforcing cycle

687
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: with their fear response gone wrong. That is my interpretation

688
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: of it. But then again, different people in the field

689
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: will have different different takes on it, some more scientific

690
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: than others. Right. And I really love how you pointed

691
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: out the link between in this case anorexia, but really

692
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: any type of disordered eating or eating disorder, and phobias

693
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: and anxiety, because they are so linked that there's been

694
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: studies that have shown that similar parts of our brains

695
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: are activated by the behaviors that we use to to

696
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: kind of mitigate anxiety and those that are activated when

697
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: people control or restrict food, and also that eating disorders

698
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: are often comorbid, so they occur alongside things like PTSD

699
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: or things like a phobia, perhaps one that's pretty similar

700
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: in nature. I really like there was something you mentioned

701
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: before that we haven't spoken about yet that I think

702
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: is really valuable, but also something that not everyone will

703
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: maybe know about. And you mentioned outpatient care. So when

704
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: did you kind of begin to get help? And I

705
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 1: know you mentioned you you're an outpatient in outpatient care

706
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: or not in an impatient facility? What does that really entail?

707
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: Outpatient essentially just mean kind of that's the words suggests

708
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: that you are getting the treatment, but you're not hospitalized, right,

709
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 1: You're not in a treatment facility twenty four hours, right,

710
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: So in patient would be someone who's in a psychiatric

711
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: clinic or in some kind of treatment residential clinic. Right.

712
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: So my treatment was outpatient, which meant that I would

713
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: go to treatment with would see doctor, I would see

714
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: a dietitian, and also would see my therapist. In the beginning,

715
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: it was twice a week or sometimes it's a bit more,

716
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 1: and then gradually reduced seeing the amount of time I

717
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: was doing that, right, And essentially I was at a

718
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: point in my own REXDA, where I was quite poorly physically,

719
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 1: was to a point where they were like, if you

720
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: don't comply with our patient treatment, that we're putting you

721
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: in patients, right, And I really didn't want to go

722
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: in patients, right, That I really didn't want to go there.

723
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: And the reason why I really didn't want to go

724
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: there was because I knew that if I went in patient,

725
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: I would have to eat bread with jam. And I

726
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: was terrified or eating bread with jam. And I was like,

727
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: if I can avoid eating bread with jam and instead

728
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: create my own kind of work around that and eat

729
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: safe foods instead, I would do that. And that's just

730
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: a lot about how sick I was where that for me,

731
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: that bread with jam was like my biggest fear, and

732
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: I was like, I need to do everything to avoid

733
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: eating it. And it's just so bizarre. But because a

734
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: lot of times you hear people saying, oh, yeah, I

735
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: had this turnaround moment I realized I need to work

736
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 1: on my health, But for me, it was more just

737
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: like fear of going in patient was what motivated me

738
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: to engage with out patient treatment. Right. Just to be

739
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: completely honest, Well, thank you for sharing that because I

740
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: think that it doesn't really glamorize it. Of like you said,

741
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: like there was this massive turning point or I realized

742
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: that life is worth living. It was like, actually, you

743
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: know your recovery it sounds like it was still there

744
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: was still fear in that in that period. There was

745
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,360
Speaker 1: still there was still this motivating factor of of avoiding

746
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: or not so much restricting, but that phobia around specific foods.

747
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: And what was your experience like moving throughout patient And

748
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: maybe this is a dumb question, but was there a

749
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: point where you were like, Oh, I'm actually on the end,

750
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm feeling better, I'm really committed to, you know, being

751
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: able to eat bread with jam or being able to

752
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 1: fully recover from this from this disorder. Yeah. So that's

753
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: a very good question because when I started recovery, I

754
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: was very much waiting for like a light bulb moment.

755
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: I think that is often the narrative here on eating

756
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: disorder recovery. Don't get me wrong, that is a lot

757
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: of people's experience. They may just be like, oh, I

758
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: realized life is short and I'm doing this right. But

759
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: for me, there I often say that my lightbulb moment

760
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: was realizing there is no light bulb moment, right, because

761
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: I was waiting for that moment to happen and it

762
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: just kind of didn't. Right. The closest thing I came

763
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: to a moment of WHOA, I'm doing better, WHOA I

764
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: got this was actually when my brain became properly renourished,

765
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: right when I had put on some weights, when I'd

766
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: been eating more consistently for some time. It was almost

767
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: like my brain went a bit back online, if that

768
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 1: makes sense, right, And thankfully I had a psychologist that

769
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: was very much explaining this to me. So the psychologist

770
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: essentially said that you may not be completely receptive even

771
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: for therapy and for talking and talking before you are

772
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: more renourished. And I put on some weight, right, So

773
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: I remember the point where I started being like, WHOA,

774
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: I actually I think I got this, Like I'm better

775
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: was when I put on some weights. Not saying that

776
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: in eating disorders magically solved by putting on some weights

777
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: or eating more, but I'm saying that some of the

778
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: cognitive symptoms tend to lessen, right, And that is when

779
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: I was more like, WHOA, maybe there is a life

780
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 1: outside of this. Right. Of course, I did have moments

781
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: during my early recovery when I was like, yeah, maybe

782
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: maybe I can do this, you know, I had, but

783
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: the motivation was very ambivalent. And I think this is

784
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: one thing to be aware of with eating disorders, that

785
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: people with eating disorder eating disorders recovery can be their

786
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: biggest fear and biggest goal at the same time. And

787
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: it's very very common to be very ambivalent, jump from

788
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: oh I can't do this too, I'm doing this sometimes

789
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 1: in the span of like an hour, Like I see

790
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: this all the time with clients, right, they will be

791
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: they will jump from one to the other. The ambivalence

792
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: is very very strong, right, So yeah, that's kind of

793
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 1: my experience, but of course everyone has a different experience

794
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: when it comes to that. That is so interesting because

795
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: I love what you just said then about you can.

796
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: You can recovery can be both your biggest fear and

797
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:58,280
Speaker 1: your biggest goal. And how when you just in your experience,

798
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: when you started putting on weight, you found at those

799
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: cognitive functions started to come back. The perhaps elements of

800
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: the irrationality that is very much a characteristic of this

801
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: disorder kind of went away as well. What do you

802
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: think was the biggest factor in the success of your

803
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: recovery or what do you think really was able to

804
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: bring you to a place where you can kind of

805
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: talk about this now, because I think I was researching

806
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,760
Speaker 1: this and it was really quite sad but also quite

807
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, interesting to see that a lot of people

808
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: with anorexia don't always recover, and it is a really

809
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: hard psychiatric illness to treat. So what do you think

810
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: was a contributor to your success or your journey? I

811
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: think there are several factors here, so I will I

812
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 1: think one of them is that, you know, my treatment

813
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: system was I was quite lucky with having a good

814
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: psychologist and having access to treatment, right, because that's another

815
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: thing with eating disorder treatments that very often is quite inaccessible. Right.

816
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: I was in Norway at this point, which is my

817
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: home country, and there the treatment is completely free of

818
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: charge and pretty high quality. So I think that I

819
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: would kind of think that that the privilege of that

820
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: definitely was a factor. But of course, even in Norway,

821
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: when people have access to treatment, not everyone recovers, right,

822
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: So that was one thing. Having a good treatment support

823
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: and also a good treatment support that's very much echoed

824
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: the fact that yeah, you need to eat you need

825
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: to put on weight. You can't just sit here and

826
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 1: talk endlessly with us and walk around it in circles

827
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: and psychoanalyzs. You need to eat as well, and we

828
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: will sort the other things, but you need refeeding. I

829
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: think that for me was very, very crucial. And also

830
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: think part of it is my personality type. And I

831
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: see this in a lot of people with anrexia, say

832
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: the kind of like they're a little bit like, we

833
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: do this or we don't right very much when I,

834
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 1: for example, factionism, it's the perfect actionism in some ways.

835
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 1: When I was given the task of recovery, and I was,

836
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 1: for example, I was given a meal plan, I was

837
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: kind of making a meal plan in collaboration with dietitian.

838
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: We were working our way around it. But then I

839
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: was very much like, okay, I'm doing this. I'm not

840
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: half doing this, right. I think that is my personality

841
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: that I'm very like, okay, all or nothing, I'm doing this,

842
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: or I don't write so but that is very commentary

843
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: in some people with a rexia. Right. But then, of

844
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: course we know that the rates of full recovery unfortunately

845
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 1: aren't always so high. You know, the relapse rate is

846
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: very very high, and that is very unfortunate. I think

847
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: it comes boils down to lack of facts to treatment,

848
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: the nature of an eating disorder, and just also sometimes

849
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: the treatment system isn't always so great. There is a

850
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: lot of Yeah, there are a lot of misconceptions about

851
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: eating disorders, even within the treatment system that also make

852
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: it more difficult. Another thing I think is I found

853
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 1: a good I found good support also online, and don't

854
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: get me wrong, online eating disorder recovery communities can be very,

855
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: very triggering, especially when you, for example, see TikTok, the

856
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 1: recovery community there. I took it. I'm not on TikTok,

857
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: but I took a look there and I was like, whoa,

858
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:12,959
Speaker 1: because I wanted to see what my younger clients we're

859
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,879
Speaker 1: looking at, because they kept saying TikTok is triggering, can

860
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 1: be very triggering. But I was very lucky to access,

861
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: for example, the scientific papers and learning about eating disorder.

862
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 1: And then something kind of clicked in my head. I

863
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: am very again comes down to the personality type personality thing.

864
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: I am very like science minded, Oh this is what

865
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: it is. And then I felt like scientifically, recovery makes

866
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. Right, Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

867
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: I think that was big factors for me. Yeah yeah,

868
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: oh that's really very interesting. And you talked about this

869
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: very bravely. But like the misconceptions around eating disorders, around

870
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: anorexia in particular, what are some of those that you

871
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: come across, perhaps with clients or on social media or

872
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: just in the general media or rhetoric that we have

873
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: around this class of conditions. I think the biggest one

874
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: is weight, right, So, and eating disorder is not necessarily

875
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: a weight disorder. It is a mental disorder where weight

876
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 1: loss can be a side effect in some but not

877
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: all cases. Actually it is only in the minority of

878
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: cases with people eating disorders are underweight, right, So, my

879
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: case of anorexiam being quite underweight, that is one of

880
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: the more rare presentations of an eating disorder, right, So,

881
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 1: I think that is the biggest one. People tend to

882
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: think that an eating disorder when someone has an eating disorder,

883
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: you can see it because they're going to be very underweight.

884
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: That is not necessarily the case. Some people may gain weight,

885
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: some people may lose weight, some people may fluctuate, some

886
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 1: people may not have them any weight changes, and again,

887
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,919
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily an indicator of the severity of the illness, right,

888
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: So that is one big misconception. Another one is that

889
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: misconception that it only happens to women. That is not true.

890
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,320
Speaker 1: It can happen to people of any gender. And also

891
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: people tend to think that it happens only to very

892
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: young people can happen to people of any age. So overall,

893
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,919
Speaker 1: I think the biggest misconceptions is on who it affects

894
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: and how it presents right. And I think it was

895
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: really interesting when I was looking I was researching this

896
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: topic and going back through papers that I had read previously,

897
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: really deep diving into it. I was like, you know,

898
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: there is this image when we mentioned or talk about

899
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: eating disorders. It's an image of a woman who is

900
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: very underweight in her early twenties or lighteens. And it

901
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: doesn't account for the fact that bingating disorder exists or

902
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 1: believe me, or that there aren't people who are what

903
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: we would typically say an unhealthy way or underweight, or

904
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: there are men or people of many genders who experience this,

905
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: And I think that's so. I think that's something that

906
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: we have to kind of retrain the narrative and change

907
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: the narrative around because it doesn't make treatment accessible, it

908
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: doesn't do much for the stigma and discrimination. So I

909
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: think that's an amazing point that you that you brought up.

910
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: I do want to say, so you do a lot

911
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: of counseling. I think that's amazing, amazing work. What would

912
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: be one huge or maybe less huge, just a significant

913
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: piece of advice that you might give to someone who's

914
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: listening to this right now, who's like, Okay, well, I

915
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 1: want to recover, I want to heal from this. What

916
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: would you say to them? What advice would you give

917
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: to them? I think my best advice would be do

918
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: that work and don't postpone it and think that there's

919
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: going to be a magical future moment when you're ready

920
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: to recover, because that's not how an eating disorder work, right.

921
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: Seek the help now. And also when it comes to treatment,

922
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: if you seek out help and you find that that

923
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: particular treatment is not really working for you, right, then

924
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 1: it's okay to take another form of treatment. Right. For example,

925
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: I see some people may start, you know, psycho analyzing

926
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: their entire childhood and feel like that doesn't really help,

927
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: and they realize they need a bit more of a

928
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: practical maybe they need to go for an in patients stay,

929
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: or maybe they need to be a bit more focused

930
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: on refeeling, you know, find out something that works if

931
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: you find a treatment team that you feel is on

932
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: your side, but also find a treatment team that is

933
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: against eating disorder. If your treatment team seems to be

934
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: just fearing the same thing the eating disorder is fearing, that,

935
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 1: probably no good, right, I hear this A lot of

936
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: people have Their treatment team would be like, Okay, yeah,

937
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: don't put on too much weight. Oh, don't get to

938
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, you don't be careful, don't eat too much, right,

939
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm not joking. This is unfortunately, it's I know it's ridiculous,

940
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: but unfortunately it is a common experience. Right, So find

941
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 1: a team that's on your side, and don't postpone and

942
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: think that you're magically going to be ready in the future,

943
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 1: because that's not how I'm eating disorder work. Trust me,

944
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 1: I work with people who've thought that, and they've at

945
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: eating disorders for several decades. Right. But I also want

946
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: to say that if you are someone who've had an

947
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: eating disorder for a long time or a short time,

948
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: recovery is possible. There's another thing. I see people I've

949
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 1: had an eating disorder for a long time, did me

950
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: think that their case is impossible to recover from? But

951
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: that is not necessarily the case. Recovery is still possible,

952
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 1: So please please don't lose hope on that sense. That

953
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 1: is such a positive and beautiful message to end on.

954
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I just think this was such

955
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: an amazing conversation to have, and I'm so grateful that

956
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: you came on that you are able to be so

957
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: vulnerable and insightful. So thank you so much for your time,

958
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. And also I'm going to

959
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: give a plug to your amazing podcast Recovery Talk. You know,

960
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,919
Speaker 1: I feel like I talk about different topics every week,

961
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: so if this topic was one that you're like, I

962
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 1: want to know more. There is so much psychology behind this,

963
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: and you talk about it so much on your show

964
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: in such a beautiful and articulate way. So I will

965
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: leave links in the buyer in the episode description. And

966
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: of course what's your Instagram hand or maybe people can

967
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 1: give you a follow to see your amazing content. Yes,

968
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,959
Speaker 1: so my Instagram is Amalia Lee, and I also have

969
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: a Instagram or oriented towards eating a sort of recovery,

970
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 1: which is let's recover dot call dot UK. Well, thank

971
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on. If you enjoyed this episode,

972
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: please feel free to leave a five star review on

973
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. It

974
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: really helps the show to grow and reach new people.

975
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: I really hope that this episode taught you something, that

976
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: you learned something that you can bring it into your

977
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: own life or the lives of people around you. That's

978
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 1: always the aim. And like I said at the beginning

979
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 1: of this episode, we do now have much available, So

980
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: if you want to support the podcast, you want to

981
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: allow us to keep doing what you're doing, please have

982
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: a browse, have a bye, whatever you would like to do,

983
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 1: and we will be back next week for another episode.