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Speaker 2: be a good one today. John Middlecoff and I chop
Speaker 2: it up for almost an hour, but I want to
Speaker 2: start with the Denver Broncos tonight. You know when Sean
Speaker 2: Payton came out and took that shot at Nathaniel Hackett,
Speaker 2: everybody freaked out, WHOA, that's over the top. Baron Rodgers
Speaker 2: stuck up for his buddy. Sean pay does know anything.
Speaker 2: Nathaniel Hackett and the Jets last forty drives one touchdown. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: Russell Wilson has taken Nathaniel Hackett's Russell Wilson eighty four
Speaker 2: passer rating, sixteen touchdowns, eleven picks. Russell now is a
Speaker 2: one oh four passer rating. It's all the same, dudes,
Speaker 2: eighteen touchdowns, four picks. Nathaniel Hackett is not a good
Speaker 2: football coach. Sean Payton's a great football coach. Listen to
Speaker 2: the passer ratings of Russell Wilson's career from twenty eighteen
Speaker 2: to on one eleven, one O six, one o five,
Speaker 2: one oh three, eighty four, one oh four. Try to
Speaker 2: find the Nathaniel Hackett year. The Jets offense is now
Speaker 2: the most unwatchable offense. I'll make the argument that Zach
Speaker 2: Wilson's the least effective quarterback, starting quarterback I've seen in
Speaker 2: the NFL and maybe in my life. Nathaniel Hackett Sean
Speaker 2: Payton was right. What you're watching in Denver's amazing. And
Speaker 2: Russell Wilson, they've beaten the Chiefs, maybe the best team
Speaker 2: in the league. The Bills hammered the Jets today and
Speaker 2: the red hot hottest team in the league in terms
Speaker 2: of winning Street Minnesota Vikings three weeks in a row,
Speaker 2: three games in a row. It's it's coaching. It's the
Speaker 2: same guys, isn't it amazing? That's why you know it.
Speaker 2: We all know the quarterback leads this league. That's why
Speaker 2: I never bought into Russell Wilson is washed. It's impossible.
Speaker 2: You can't go from one O four, one O three,
Speaker 2: one O three, one O three. Can't play. It doesn't
Speaker 2: make any there's no historical precedent. So Russell tonight made
Speaker 2: the throw of the night to Courtland Sutton, who also
Speaker 2: made a great play. Had that really good? Was it
Speaker 2: third or fourth down? Little lob over the linebacker was
Speaker 2: called interference, but caught anyway by the Broncos under heavy,
Speaker 2: heavy pressure because of Brian Floores as blitz packages for
Speaker 2: the Vikings, kept dumping it off to p Ryan in
Speaker 2: the backs, and then new some running himself. I mean,
Speaker 2: all the Russell Wilson stuff in Seattle's back, the playmaking,
Speaker 2: the good deep ball, the good decision making. Here's the
Speaker 2: thing with Russell Wilson. Sean fixed him, or should we
Speaker 2: say Sean got him back on the freeway, the Russell
Speaker 2: Wilson interstate. This is how he's played at college, Seahawks
Speaker 2: and Broncos, with one exception than Nathaniel Hacket year. I mean,
Speaker 2: go back to Wisconsin, Seattle, this Denver. It's always been
Speaker 2: the same player. Now. I don't think he looks quite
Speaker 2: as twitchy as before, not quite as twitchy, but you're
Speaker 2: seeing basically the same stuff.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The other thing to remember, if you go back to
Speaker 2: Russell Wilson's real prime, probably four years ago, We've got
Speaker 2: a lot of new quarterbacks in the league who are
Speaker 2: explosive and dynamic and big and tall and they move well.
Speaker 2: So the quality of the quarterback play in the NFL
Speaker 2: has gone up, I think over the last five to
Speaker 2: ten years. So this was a real team tonight. Minnesota
Speaker 2: is a real team. I mean Josh Dobbs, a backup quarterback.
Speaker 2: You know, historically there's a reason him under pressure, he's
Speaker 2: not quite as dynamic, not as dynamic. But you know,
Speaker 2: I look at Russell Wilson twenty seven to thirty five,
Speaker 2: two hundred and sixty yards. He doesn't make mistakes, get
Speaker 2: you in and out of plays, moves well, play maker,
Speaker 2: the laterals, the quick screens. But it really is for
Speaker 2: all this stuff about you know, Sean Payton, it was
Speaker 2: too much ego. What you were watching is great coaching,
Speaker 2: from Hackett's disaster to the first three weeks of the
Speaker 2: year where it was a bit of a mess zero
Speaker 2: to three to this now. It's fun to watch. And
Speaker 2: I know a lot of you are saying, we'll calling you.
Speaker 2: You know you like Sean Payton, so of course this
Speaker 2: is what you think. No, what I like is really
Speaker 2: smart offensive coaches. That's what I like. I mean, look
Speaker 2: at it. Look at the offenses right now that couldn't
Speaker 2: close out games today, Bears defensive head coach, Jets mess,
Speaker 2: Seahawks defensive head coach Ron Rivera. Washington swept by the
Speaker 2: Giants this year. Yikes. Pittsburgh defensive coach Kenny Pickett is
Speaker 2: not getting better. In fact, I'll get into this later,
Speaker 2: but you watch Pickett and Jordan love One is getting
Speaker 2: better every week. Jordan love One's getting worse Kenny Pickett.
Speaker 2: Look at the coaching cultures packers, offensive culture, steeters, defensive culture.
Speaker 2: So I don't think Russell Wilson would have gotten better
Speaker 2: this year with just anybody Nathaniel Hackett coaching. But to
Speaker 2: be able to take Russell last year into Russell this year,
Speaker 2: the dramatic improvement, I don't think you can do that
Speaker 2: with a defensive coach. I don't. I don't think you can.
Speaker 2: I mean, look at how quickly Sean McVeigh got Baker
Speaker 2: Mayfield to be good, had two days of practice. Look
Speaker 2: At what Kevin O'Connell did with Josh Dobbs who didn't
Speaker 2: get a practice. Look at what Sean Payton has done
Speaker 2: to course correct Russell Wilson. I don't think any of
Speaker 2: this stuff is a coincidence. I don't think defensive coaches
Speaker 2: can pull that off. Like I don't think Justin Fields
Speaker 2: is ever going to be an elite franchise quarterback, but
Speaker 2: I do think it hurts him being with Matty Eberflus.
Speaker 2: Justin Herbert is playing is oursoff. I think Brandon Staley
Speaker 2: once again, Justin Herbert makes the plays. Brandon Staley can't
Speaker 2: make the stops as the defensive coach. So it's not
Speaker 2: that I know Sean Payton and like him, I've been
Speaker 2: on this for two to three years, and I know
Speaker 2: it's after a while it's irritating. But if you look
Speaker 2: at some of these quick turnarounds by these quarterbacks, it's
Speaker 2: seemingly all offensive coaches. You could have brought in a
Speaker 2: very good defensive coach this year at Denver and maybe
Speaker 2: they would have won the same number of games or
Speaker 2: maybe more. That defensive coach would not have taken Russell
Speaker 2: Wilson from last year and created this current Russell Wilson.
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. Tom Brady will joke privately, I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: and probably publicly to his team Belichick didn't understand anything
Speaker 2: about offense. Didn't even understand some of the terminology of it.
Speaker 2: It's a different world, I find myself. The AFC has
Speaker 2: got good teams. Started looking at the AFC teams that
Speaker 2: you know, you got a lot of these teams that
Speaker 2: are five and five and one game over five hundred
Speaker 2: and five hundred or one game under five hundred. It's Broncos,
Speaker 2: it's Chargers, it's Bills. There is so much talent in
Speaker 2: the AFC. It's just incredible. It really is. Today Arizona,
Speaker 2: I thought, pretty good team faced an AFC team lost, Minnesota,
Speaker 2: pretty good team hot faced, an AFC team lost. So
Speaker 2: the AFC is the superior conference. You're seeing it time
Speaker 2: and time and time again. This is I felt tonight
Speaker 2: was the biggest win for Russell Wilson, even bigger than
Speaker 2: Kansas City, even bigger than Buffalo, because I felt the
Speaker 2: last drive of the game was so much about Russell
Speaker 2: Wilson's playmaking. It was so much about Russ cooking, you know.
Speaker 2: Kansas City was about Mahomes second half offense, not watered down,
Speaker 2: unable to really generate anything. The Buffalo win was about
Speaker 2: the Bill's mistakes. This game was about Russell Wilson in
Speaker 2: the second half, engineering several important drives, especially the last
Speaker 2: one for a touchdown. And I felt like this was
Speaker 2: as big a win for Russell Wilson as he has
Speaker 2: had two three years, maybe longer. It felt like Russell's game.
Speaker 2: That throw to Courtland Sutton that play felt so much
Speaker 2: like a seahawk played by Russell Wilson. So and again,
Speaker 2: I don't know as Sean Payton fixed Russell Wilson, or
Speaker 2: is he just course corrected Russell back to being who
Speaker 2: Russell Wilson is, which has always been a minus quarterback,
Speaker 2: be plus a minus quarterback, you know. Twenty seven to
Speaker 2: thirty five, two hundred and sixty yards, game winning touchdown,
Speaker 2: game winning drive that feels like old russ Son of it,
Speaker 2: eighty five ninety percent of it old Ross cooking. And
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Speaker 2: of our faves. We're going to roll for about an
Speaker 2: hour tonight. John Middlecoff joining us. All right, both of
Speaker 2: us want to get rid of Brandon Staley, so I'll
Speaker 2: get rid of that in a second. But I will
Speaker 2: say this between we have two iconic franchises, Packers Steelers
Speaker 2: with two young quarterbacks. We don't love either. But I
Speaker 2: will say this, Jordan Love makes throws to his young
Speaker 2: receivers on calls by the coaching staff where it feels
Speaker 2: as if they trust him that they're going to let
Speaker 2: him make some big throws in big spots. He was
Speaker 2: good on third down today seven or fourteen. I thought
Speaker 2: the play calling was at times aggressive. He threw for
Speaker 2: over three hundred yards. Now it's the Chargers. It is
Speaker 2: the worst coach defense with Brandon Staley, arguably for their
Speaker 2: talent in the league. But before we get into Brandon,
Speaker 2: I do think Jordan Love. I really think we have
Speaker 2: to acknowledge Packers have done a good job through the
Speaker 2: US John of drafting and developing players. They don't pick,
Speaker 2: they don't pick offensive players in the first round. Love
Speaker 2: was an exception. But I do see he'll never be
Speaker 2: Burrow accurate. That's not what he is. He's not gonna
Speaker 2: be He's not gonna throw it like Stafford or Josh Allen.
Speaker 2: But Jordan Love. I don't see anything with Pickett. I
Speaker 2: see something with Jordan Love. What is it?
Speaker 1: Well, I think when he was coming out you had
Speaker 1: to look at him like a poor man's Josh Allen.
Speaker 1: His stats weren't very good at Utah State. It was
Speaker 1: all the raw physical tools. He is much more talented
Speaker 1: than Kenny Pickett, a stronger arm, better athlete. But like
Speaker 1: you said, I mean, there'll be a guy flying down
Speaker 1: the sideline and he'll overthrow them, right. But you know,
Speaker 1: you know, young quarterbacks who haven't played much of the NFL,
Speaker 1: the timing you gotta get rid of the ball. You
Speaker 1: saw Aidan O'Connell do that a couple of times. Another
Speaker 1: guy that has more physical skills than Kenny Pickett as
Speaker 1: a as a thrower. Yeah, listen, I do think you
Speaker 1: got to be very careful making judgments with quarterbacks when
Speaker 1: it comes to playing against the Chargers. But Gudakin said
Speaker 1: a couple weeks ago that the last ten games we're
Speaker 1: kind of gonna determine this guy's fate. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: today was definitely not a negative for him right now.
Speaker 1: Can he do that consistently down the stretch the weather
Speaker 1: gets worse. He's got a lot on the line, and
Speaker 1: we've been talking about this NonStop. The Packers, because of
Speaker 1: the contract he's in, aren't in the worst spot. If
Speaker 1: they win and he progresses, Okay, if he loses and
Speaker 1: does it whatever. So to me, it's a win win
Speaker 1: that they're playing with house money right now. Never forget
Speaker 1: in that trade. They finagled the second round pick this
Speaker 1: year out of the Jets, Zach Wilson, I mean their quarterbacks,
Speaker 1: the Jets are terrible. They play the Dolphins coming up
Speaker 1: on Black Friday. That's another l So that pick. They're
Speaker 1: gonna have some draft, ammo. But like you said that,
Speaker 1: they invest all these defensive players The crazy part about
Speaker 1: the Packers is their defense never looks you know, historically's
Speaker 1: never good. But they have a bunch of first round
Speaker 1: picks and I paid guys on that side of the ball.
Speaker 2: Well you know, I mean, if you go home, Grin McCarthy, Staffort.
Speaker 2: They've drafted first round defense. But they've always been pretty
Speaker 2: progressive offensively. They've gone with offensive coaches to sort of
Speaker 2: kind of be the chaperone of their young emerging quarterbacks,
Speaker 2: whether it was young Farv, Young Aaron, or young Love.
Speaker 2: So I do think he I just the play calling
Speaker 2: today the young receivers, it's like, hey, Tedny Pickett. They're
Speaker 2: terrified of putting him in any situation to make a decision.
Speaker 2: They're not with Jordan Love. Now let's transition to Brandon Staley,
Speaker 2: who once again got snippy after the game. I feel
Speaker 2: bad for Justin Herbert. Quintin Johnson appears to be, if
Speaker 2: not a whiff, he is just a non factor until
Speaker 2: year two at a wide receiver. He's lost, he's over
Speaker 2: his skill, over his head. I've heard he's struggling to
Speaker 2: learn the playbook. So he's got he didn't play with
Speaker 2: a ton of urgency. He's loose. He didn't run precise routes.
Speaker 2: But I do you believe. I mean, you're a former scout,
Speaker 2: you know how these guys think. I have to believe
Speaker 2: at least the Spanos's Dean Spanoses has to now at
Speaker 2: least consider sleep on it making a change at head coach.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I mean by the time people are listening
Speaker 1: to this, it might be official to give Kellen Moore
Speaker 1: that runway the rest of the year. Listen, how did
Speaker 1: they not know when the season ended? Last year? I
Speaker 1: mean they had two of the most devastating losses you'll
Speaker 1: ever see, right two years ago to the Raiders with
Speaker 1: an interim head coach on a Sunday night football to
Speaker 1: get into the playoffs. Remember when Brandon Staley was doing
Speaker 1: ludicrous things like going forward on his own twenty yard
Speaker 1: line I mean in a winner get end game. And
Speaker 1: then last year to me, was more symbolic of kind
Speaker 1: of what we've seen kicking the crap out of the
Speaker 1: Jags and then the blown coverage out of the blown
Speaker 1: coverage after the blown coverage today. And this is what
Speaker 1: I say when I preface by saying we got to
Speaker 1: be careful about the Jordan Love, I mean, guys are
Speaker 1: kind of wide open against the Chargers. No team consistently
Speaker 1: blow coverages, and especially in big spots, that's not you
Speaker 1: could be playing the Bears or I mean the Panthers
Speaker 1: and guys aren't as open. So it's you gotta be
Speaker 1: careful with the Chargers. But to me, the snippiness, you
Speaker 1: just don't get to act like that if you're not
Speaker 1: Bill Parcells, Belichick, Andy Reid, like, I mean, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? And I think it reflects he knows. I mean,
Speaker 1: this Plaine flight right home has to be extremely uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Who knows by the end of the day tomorrow he's
Speaker 1: not gonna have to clear out his locker. And let's face,
Speaker 1: I think Joey Bosa might have torn his achilles. I mean,
Speaker 1: this franchise right now is in major shambles for having
Speaker 1: a really good, high end quarterback. It's kind of sad,
Speaker 1: it really is. You got to feel for you know,
Speaker 1: just I don't know how many of them there are,
Speaker 1: but I actually know a decent amount that from San
Speaker 1: Diego Charger fans. For a team that always has talent,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of crappy teams like just the Bears.
Speaker 1: What do they do. The Chargers always have talent my
Speaker 1: entire life. I mean back to the Drew Brees early days,
Speaker 1: to the Philip Rivers days, to this team over the
Speaker 1: last three or four years, and just the results to say,
Speaker 1: I mean, there are four to go forward and six
Speaker 1: in the NFL. You gotta be that's like the Giants,
Speaker 1: the Jets. Yes, these poorly teams that don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of depth of talent. That is not the case
Speaker 1: here well.
Speaker 2: And also the Spanoses have been cheap with coaches. There's
Speaker 2: been some first round holdouts. Brian Dabele was sitting there.
Speaker 2: Brian Dable wanted justin Herbert. Brian Dable wanted the job.
Speaker 2: Tom Tellesco knows Brian Dable, They've known each other for years.
Speaker 2: And the Spanos family went cheap. So you get what
Speaker 2: you pay for, So I like, I mean, I've gone
Speaker 2: to dinner with Dean Spanos a couple of times. I
Speaker 2: know his kids. Tom Tellesco's a friend. They if you
Speaker 2: look at some of the offenses struggling Jets, defensive coach
Speaker 2: Seattle in the last month, defensive coach Washington, defensive coach Pittsburgh,
Speaker 2: defensive coach Chicago defensive coach. This this team is just underachieving.
Speaker 2: The Spanos has had Brian Dabele there. Remember when they
Speaker 2: hired Brandon Saley. We were surprised by it, big time,
Speaker 2: big time. I mean, it was kind of a given
Speaker 2: based on Telesco's relationship with Brian and Dable and all
Speaker 2: my guys in the league. Again, you're a former NFL scout.
Speaker 2: My guys in the league were all like, oh, Daboll's great.
Speaker 2: Eric Mangini, whether we're at dinner or we're on the air,
Speaker 2: has said like, I will vouch for Brian Dabele. He
Speaker 2: knows him very well. He's like one of the smartest
Speaker 2: guys I've ever had the pleasure to be around. So
Speaker 2: I look at the charters and I think to myself,
Speaker 2: you know, we can always blame this or that the
Speaker 2: Spanos family had an opportunity we going to Brian Dable.
Speaker 2: It probably because Staley's probably one of the cheapest coaches
Speaker 2: in the league. And so the other thing to consider, John,
Speaker 2: if you give it to Kellen Moore, you can kick
Speaker 2: the tires on Kellen Moore as a head coach. You
Speaker 2: just figure out in the last six I mean, doesn't
Speaker 2: that make sense to you.
Speaker 1: Well, but even if we rewind whatever, you know, eleven
Speaker 1: months they had the opportunity. I don't know if they
Speaker 1: would have had to pay as much that the Denver
Speaker 1: Broncos paid to get Sean Payton to come get that job.
Speaker 1: Didn't he love la He was right, it was clear
Speaker 1: that he would have loved to work with Justin Herbert.
Speaker 1: But what did that tell you? It wasn't to me
Speaker 1: as much about Brandon Staley. It was more, well, this
Speaker 1: price tag to get this guy. Even if we don't
Speaker 1: have to give him the ninety hundred million dollars Denver,
Speaker 1: we're going to have to give a number that we're
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable giving, which to me, Colin is insane. I
Speaker 1: do think being cheap when you have when one when
Speaker 1: you inherit the wealth, and two when you're making the
Speaker 1: level of wealth these teams, it's like a disease because
Speaker 1: they're getting four hundred million dollars a year alone from
Speaker 1: the NFL. The alone from the NFL, well, your payrolls
Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty million dollars, so you're talking an
Speaker 1: extra one hundred and twenty million dollars. And this is
Speaker 1: not a signing bonus. You don't have to give the
Speaker 1: seventy million to Sean Payton on day one when he
Speaker 1: signs the contract. You pay it over the life of
Speaker 1: the deal. So even if you got to buy Staley
Speaker 1: out for fifteen million dollars, these numbers to the ninety
Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of people, to these NFL owners
Speaker 1: are a line item. It's an expense, and I think
Speaker 1: some of these you look at these old school owners
Speaker 1: that have been involved in the league when it was really,
Speaker 1: really cheap and money was not flowing like it was
Speaker 1: now in the seventies. In the eighties, the Bears are
Speaker 1: a good example. They're very uncomfortable with the way the
Speaker 1: digits have changed. It's why some of these owners that
Speaker 1: got into the eighties but were mavericks like Jerry or
Speaker 1: Robert Craft are unfazed by the big numbers. They're willing
Speaker 1: to spend. But when you look at Spanos, fifteen twenty
Speaker 1: million dollars to buy a guy out and then seventy
Speaker 1: to pay a guy is is crazy to him. This
Speaker 1: where I listen, say what you want about Mark Davis.
Speaker 1: He has not been afraid to take big swings with
Speaker 1: money because he knows it's kind of all monopoly money.
Speaker 1: If this isn't real, you're not actually even You could
Speaker 1: be the worst team in the league, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: you could literally not win a game and you get
Speaker 1: the same amount of money as the Eagles are forty
Speaker 1: nine ers the carriage, you television ratings, and that's not
Speaker 1: even counting the other money that you make. So yeah,
Speaker 1: to me, Kellen Moore, to give him a I think
Speaker 1: that he's this a viable candidate in general, given that
Speaker 1: they already know him. Clearly, if we assume that him
Speaker 1: and Herbert have a really good relationship, like Brandon Staley,
Speaker 1: like Anthony Lynn, like Mike McCoy, is not going to
Speaker 1: cost the premium numbers, So you could get him a
Speaker 1: four year deal for let's say twenty thirty million dollars whatever.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a lot of money to most people,
Speaker 1: but to these NFL coaches, I mean, you got call
Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty college coaches are making nine to ten
Speaker 1: million dollars. Oh. And the other thing is in your division,
Speaker 1: you have the best coach currently in the NFL who
Speaker 1: has a twenty seven year old superstar quarterback, and Sean
Speaker 1: Payton who over the last couple of weeks has proven
Speaker 1: like he's not the village idiot anymore so. And listen
Speaker 1: the Raiders, I mean, say what you want. They just
Speaker 1: have a lot of talent, and they have They've accumulated
Speaker 1: some players, so it's you better put some effort into this.
Speaker 1: What's the point of paying your quarterback all this money?
Speaker 1: And they did cut them an enormous check and they
Speaker 1: put them under the premium contract if you're not going
Speaker 1: to do everything humanly possible to surround them. And it
Speaker 1: starts with the guy calling the play, slash the head coach.
Speaker 2: You know I'm watching. I want to talk Bill's Jets.
Speaker 2: So I think about this a lot because I'm in
Speaker 2: my late fifties about picking on kids. So one of
Speaker 2: my kid was the quarterback for the Jets. I think
Speaker 2: Zach Wilson's about as ineffective as any quarterback I've ever
Speaker 2: seen in my life play the position. Especially for a
Speaker 2: kid whose arm is fine. He's got an average to
Speaker 2: above average arm. He's completely ineffective as a quarterback. I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's you know, I think he was drafted,
Speaker 2: as you noted in the COVID year. I think he's
Speaker 2: Johnny Manziel with a better arm. I just don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't know if he loves the game, he certainly
Speaker 2: doesn't inspire teammates. One of my favorite picks of the
Speaker 2: week was Buffalo today. I thought they sort of get
Speaker 2: right pissed off. Twelve men in the field, blazing five.
Speaker 2: We had a good week. The Rams helped us, but
Speaker 2: one of my favorite picks was, you know, Buffalo's embarrassed
Speaker 2: itself with that twelve men on the field, all the turnovers,
Speaker 2: all the drops. They were going to come home and
Speaker 2: this is sort of we've talked about this before Thanksgiving,
Speaker 2: going into it Thanksgiving and coming out of it. This
Speaker 2: is the separation time in the NFL. The Jets are
Speaker 2: in a strange spot, so they've got some cap space,
Speaker 2: but they have to draft a left tackle. You could
Speaker 2: argue because Elijah Vera Tucker is not ever healthy. They
Speaker 2: need five new offensive linemen, probably four. You run the Jets.
Speaker 2: They whiffed on a left tackle, on a quarterback. They've
Speaker 2: hit on virtually everybody else. As you well know, there's
Speaker 2: two positions maybe three, you can't whiff on. Left tackle.
Speaker 2: Quarterback are way up there. Would you bring Sala and
Speaker 2: Joe Douglas back. They're anemic offensively. They are another defensive
Speaker 2: coach team that looks just out of sync with the
Speaker 2: league offensively. This was embarrassing, this humiliating loss. I mean,
Speaker 2: christ even the Giants one today with Tommy the veto.
Speaker 2: You own good by the way, Yeah, you own the Jets.
Speaker 2: What do you do going forward?
Speaker 1: You don't really have a choice to me, because that
Speaker 1: you went all in on Aaron Rodgers and unless Aaron
Speaker 1: Rodgers wants these guys gone, and it sure doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like that right with Nathaniel Hackett coming on that you
Speaker 1: have to roll it over. I mean you're kind of
Speaker 1: beholden to him. I mean some of these there was
Speaker 1: a story that came out today that they're gonna go
Speaker 1: after DeVante Adams in the offseason. Like, let's focus on
Speaker 1: some other priorities here. Let's protect the quarterback. You already
Speaker 1: have a really good wide receiver. Look at Tank Dell
Speaker 1: for the Houston Texas. I found him in the third round.
Speaker 1: We got to get a guy in the mid rounds
Speaker 1: to be your number two wide receiver. You drafted a
Speaker 1: tight end, like you should be able to figure some
Speaker 1: stuff out. Let's invest in the offensive line. I would
Speaker 1: bring these guys back just because of Aaron Rodgers. But
Speaker 1: if this does not turn around next year, they gotta
Speaker 1: go fast. I mean, they might not make it through
Speaker 1: the season. It'd be like if it's clearly not a
Speaker 1: playoff team at this time, to me, they're all gone, because,
Speaker 1: let's face it, I had a guy tell me when
Speaker 1: it was clear that he had drafted Joe Douglas drafted
Speaker 1: a lot of really good players. He's like, let's just
Speaker 1: pick seven of them. If six out of seven of them,
Speaker 1: you know, the Garrett Wilson's, the Bectons, the Sauce Gardeners,
Speaker 1: the pass rushers all become Pro Bowl level guys, that's awesome.
Speaker 1: But if Zack Wilson is a bust, we're in trouble.
Speaker 1: And if all those guys are busts and Zach Wilson's
Speaker 1: a player, will get contract extensions and will be viewed
Speaker 1: as big time in the NFL. And while they were
Speaker 1: bailed out a little with the Rogers trade, not really
Speaker 1: because he never got to play and we got to
Speaker 1: see Zach Wilson on display again and it consistently got worse.
Speaker 1: And I think it's easy to be objective with Zack Wilson,
Speaker 1: because this year there's the immaturity, like off the field
Speaker 1: is just quiet. It's just as the player, and he's
Speaker 1: objectively terrible. He doesn't know how to play the position.
Speaker 1: I mean today you could tell right away after the
Speaker 1: first quarter they didn't stand a chance, Like he didn't
Speaker 1: have a chance, no matter what the defense did, no
Speaker 1: matter if they got ten turnovers from Josh Allen, which
Speaker 1: clearly he was going to be pretty locked and loaded.
Speaker 1: He's a disaster and usually don't get bailed out when
Speaker 1: you draft a guy that high. The other thing, Robert Sala,
Speaker 1: I mean you can just I had a take the
Speaker 1: other day when he was coloring his beard.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Sawa is a good looking guy in New York, though,
Speaker 1: and I think in the NFL, like for example, Ryan Day,
Speaker 1: another guy in his early forties, clearly colors his beard.
Speaker 1: A little different recruiting looking hip and fresh, Nick Saban,
Speaker 1: whatever colors his hair, Mike Krzyzewski does it. Recruiting is
Speaker 1: a little different in the NFL. No one cares what
Speaker 1: you look like. I mean, Andy Reid has been big
Speaker 1: for twenty five. It's about winning and losing. You cannot
Speaker 1: be focused on some of this stuff when you're losing, Well,
Speaker 1: what do you notice today? Salla shaved that thing off, right.
Speaker 1: It's just like you just got to focus on people
Speaker 1: are judging your team, not how you're looking some of
Speaker 1: this other stuff. And I think sometimes the Jets get
Speaker 1: caught up in that, Like when the Giants are good,
Speaker 1: there's never any fluff around them. The Jets always deal
Speaker 1: with all that stuff on and off the field, and
Speaker 1: I think those guys, the story about Aaron Rodgers coming
Speaker 1: back off the Achilles is insane, Like, what are we
Speaker 1: even taught? That's the dumbest story going. He's not coming back,
Speaker 1: He's never been coming back. And obviously they're not even
Speaker 1: going to be in position because they're going to be
Speaker 1: so far out of it by that time to even
Speaker 1: risk it. But I think they got clearly they would
Speaker 1: not have been as bad if he was able to play.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, compared to Zach Wilson is a pretty
Speaker 1: wide gap, but it probably would have been a little
Speaker 1: bit more of a struggle than people like me thought
Speaker 1: it was going to be fair.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, they do not have a number two receiver. They're
Speaker 2: average at tight end. Oh line's bad and Hackett, hacketts
Speaker 2: below average offensive coordinator. You know something that I think
Speaker 2: about John, I think about this all the time. A
Speaker 2: friend called me the other day and he said, you know, Colin,
Speaker 2: you got the volume. You're doing well for FS one,
Speaker 2: You're doing well for Fox Sports. Boy, you really got
Speaker 2: leverage here. And I said, if you have it, be
Speaker 2: careful about flexing because people will remember when you don't.
Speaker 2: Aaron too often flexes Alan Lizard. Now you're stuck with
Speaker 2: that contract, Aaron. They can't go by Devonte Adams. He's
Speaker 2: Alan Lazarre's not worth that money. Randall Cobb can't play Hackett.
Speaker 2: Give me a break. Aaron wants you to know he's
Speaker 2: got power and too often use his leverage. And Brady
Speaker 2: had it his entire career in New England. Johnny never
Speaker 2: used it. He never flexed. He went to craft twice
Speaker 2: once on Garoppolo, and I was told even a year
Speaker 2: before Garoppolo, he complained a little bit about Belichick and
Speaker 2: the relationship and that Bill could just be at times really,
Speaker 2: if not hostile, disrespectful. But Brady never used it. By
Speaker 2: the way, Peyton Manning didn't use it anytime. Aaron gets
Speaker 2: an inch of it, he uses it. Lazard is now
Speaker 2: a bad contract, Hackett's a bad coordinator. Wouldn't it be
Speaker 2: nice to go out and buy the best free agent
Speaker 2: center on the market. And I think Aaron's his own
Speaker 2: worst enemy is that I said this. I don't believe
Speaker 2: Aaron will ever matter in the NFL again. And that's
Speaker 2: not a knock on Aaron, it's not. I think coming
Speaker 2: back is a huge mistake and he's better to just,
Speaker 2: you know, like most Jets seasons, let it just, you know,
Speaker 2: put it in the washer, wash it out, dryer. We'll
Speaker 2: see what it looks like in a year. But I
Speaker 2: don't think he'll ever matter again. I do think eventually
Speaker 2: the Bills will go pay seven figures for an offensive coordinator.
Speaker 2: Miami's not going backwards much. They have a really smart coach.
Speaker 2: Burrow will come back healthy. Baltimore's Oh was good. You
Speaker 2: start looking. Brandon Staley probably out. They have an offensive,
Speaker 2: competent coach. Mahome's going nowhere. Russell, Wilson, Payton are now
Speaker 2: at least viable. They can play. This is my take,
Speaker 2: Aaron will never matter again in the NFL. Am I wrong.
Speaker 1: Well, if you want to dive into those four or
Speaker 1: five plays he had before he tore his achilles. One
Speaker 1: thing he always hung his hat on was he had
Speaker 1: like the Drew Brees level accuracy with a big time arm,
Speaker 1: but he could really move before he went down. He
Speaker 1: was not looking like thirty three year old Aaron Rodgers.
Speaker 1: There were a couple of movements where you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: he looks old. He's thirty nine years old. So he
Speaker 1: was not the same physically, and remember coming off a
Speaker 1: pretty shitty year for his standards the previous year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this is a guy I think sometimes and I'm
Speaker 1: guilty of this. You just go, oh, eight months, nine
Speaker 1: months recovery, come back, He's gonna be forty years old
Speaker 1: off achilles. That even if the doctors and the rehabs
Speaker 1: are dramatically better now than historically, these are type injuries
Speaker 1: that ruined career. Look at Klay Thompson. The guy can
Speaker 1: barely He's a shell of himself, and he's way younger
Speaker 1: and a much better athlete. And I know he had
Speaker 1: the ACL as well, But I think if you just
Speaker 1: based it strictly on the way you battle back from
Speaker 1: an injury like that, when a huge part of what
Speaker 1: made you a really good player was movement. He's good,
Speaker 1: he's a good pocket player, but movement really separated him,
Speaker 1: made him an all time great player. So if he
Speaker 1: can't really move, what's he just gonna do when he's getting,
Speaker 1: you know, pressured NonStop with that offense? Just throw it
Speaker 1: away time, right? So I think that because one thing
Speaker 1: Brady and Manning always had is that was the only
Speaker 1: way they could play. They could never move, so they
Speaker 1: mastered it from the moment they were twenty four years
Speaker 1: old or hell in college. Peyton was a little bit
Speaker 1: better athlete in college than the game in the NFL.
Speaker 1: But Rogers part of this game was like, screw it,
Speaker 1: I'll just take off right or hang off left, hit
Speaker 1: guys down the field. Well, that's gonna be over. I
Speaker 1: think we have to bank on that being over. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say I think the Jets big
Speaker 1: picture just have major, major problems. They took a huge
Speaker 1: home run swing, which I can't blame them, they didn't
Speaker 1: have any other options, but it immediately backfired in their
Speaker 1: face when was Achilles ripped and now you're getting a
Speaker 1: guy back now, I think the only thing that they
Speaker 1: got going for him is he gave him money back,
Speaker 1: right that that's seventy five million, wasn't one hundred and
Speaker 1: ten million or whatever it was, right, So financially they
Speaker 1: get a little relief based on that contract that they
Speaker 1: negotiated before the season ever happened. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: they're in major, major problem. And this, like, what did
Speaker 1: they actually gain out of this year? All these good
Speaker 1: defensive players that are on rookie contra just waste it.
Speaker 1: You're going to go. I mean, they'd be lucky to
Speaker 1: go seven and ten again at this I don't see
Speaker 1: how they win another game.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I want to talk because I want to
Speaker 2: get into USC football with you and Chip Kelly at
Speaker 2: the end of this thing. But I do want to
Speaker 2: talk Lions and Bears. So again, one of my favorite
Speaker 2: bets of the day was the Bears because I think
Speaker 2: the Lions have a game Thursday. I thought they'd look
Speaker 2: ahead big win over the Chargers. I thought that, you know,
Speaker 2: and Justin Fields came back, so you know, Carolina is bad,
Speaker 2: and so Chicago's going to get Carolina's pick and it's
Speaker 2: going to be the first pick in the draft. The
Speaker 2: only thing charging because the Giants won today. New England's
Speaker 2: the only threat, and Belichick will probably coach his way
Speaker 2: to a win. So Carolina, which is now the Bears
Speaker 2: pick is number one, and they're going to have a
Speaker 2: chance to draft Caleb Williams. So I want to ask you.
Speaker 2: And it was interesting because I've called Justin Fields a
Speaker 2: YouTube quarterback. If you just take his clips Sam Darnold
Speaker 2: very much like this, I can give you three minutes
Speaker 2: of Sam Darnold. That's jaw dropping. You're just I could
Speaker 2: go usc to the Jets and you're like, shit, that
Speaker 2: guy can play. And then you watch him and the
Speaker 2: slow release, two to three horrible throws. He'll get hit,
Speaker 2: he'll fumble, a little lost to the line of scrimmage,
Speaker 2: and it was it was really interesting. So I had
Speaker 2: the just it was funny, this is how I think
Speaker 2: of Justin Field. So I had the Bears plus seven
Speaker 2: and a half, and when the Lion scored, I thought,
Speaker 2: please take time off the clock, because if you score
Speaker 2: and give Justin Fields a minute, he'll throw a pick six. Well,
Speaker 2: sure enough, he comes out, no awareness in the pocket
Speaker 2: at all, hit, fumbled, ball, gets kicked out. It's only
Speaker 2: a safety. But I was thinking, oh, don't give Justin
Speaker 2: Fields a minute, he will throw a pick six, And
Speaker 2: I think that I think I've always said this about
Speaker 2: bullpens and baseball. None of us watch as caster. You
Speaker 2: watch your favorite baseball team. There's too many games. You
Speaker 2: can't watch everybody. So a fan knows this team better
Speaker 2: than the media. And how you feel about your bullpen
Speaker 2: as a fan, you're a Giants guy when they go
Speaker 2: to the pen, how you feel regardless of what happens?
Speaker 2: Because you watch everybody watches they're all we all watch
Speaker 2: all NFL teams. You and I watch tons of college football,
Speaker 2: but in baseball, I watch a lot of Dodgers. I
Speaker 2: used to watch Yankees. You right, And when the manager
Speaker 2: comes out in the seventh, how do you feel because
Speaker 2: you know that team better than Buster only Tom Verducci,
Speaker 2: Peter Gammons, and with Justin Fields, I feel like a
Speaker 2: bad bullpen. He can make plays, but if you have
Speaker 2: to cover a game and he trails, I'm like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, that's the feeling you get when you don't
Speaker 2: trust your bullpen. In baseball, they're gonna draft Kayleb Williams, Right,
Speaker 2: the Bears would draft Kayleb Williams.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think Drake May's really falling off a cliff.
Speaker 1: I got a draft take. We'll get to here in
Speaker 1: a little bit, but I I think I saw a
Speaker 1: report from Glazier that said they'd have to be blown
Speaker 1: away to not roll back with Justin Fields like that.
Speaker 1: I'm not Jays knows all these people really well, but
Speaker 1: that just don't believe it, Like Justin Fields is not
Speaker 1: going to be their quarterback next year. One thing I
Speaker 1: learned actually when I got into football and I worked
Speaker 1: for Pat Hill at Fresno State, and he had learned
Speaker 1: this from working in the NFL for Belichick is how
Speaker 1: worthless highlight tapes are, whether it's for an NFL draft
Speaker 1: prospect or recruiting a high school kid, because, like you said,
Speaker 1: you can manipulate it. You can make any guy look
Speaker 1: like Zach Wilson.
Speaker 2: Zach Wilson's highlight tape was amazing.
Speaker 1: You have to watch games and if you just watch
Speaker 1: a couple plays of Fields, because physically he is an
Speaker 1: elite talent, right He's big, he's strong, he could fly,
Speaker 1: he's got a big arm. On any given play, he
Speaker 1: can look remarkable. But over the course of a game
Speaker 1: he's just not very good. Now, even today, coming off
Speaker 1: an injury. He had missed a bunch of games, but
Speaker 1: he was not good before he got it injured. And
Speaker 1: now that's a big part of his game, right our injuries.
Speaker 1: This is a guy that gets banged up a lot
Speaker 1: like say this, Kyler Murray similar in the sense of
Speaker 1: physical freaks, right in terms of speed, arm strength. He's
Speaker 1: shorter obviously than he's a good player. Yeah, Kyler Murray,
Speaker 1: when you watch him, if you're a Texans fan, if
Speaker 1: you're gambling against him, keeps you on the edge of
Speaker 1: your seat.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And the one thing I saw today is and this
Speaker 1: is why, and I know Mike Lombardi had been saying,
Speaker 1: you bring him back, you risk the contract that if
Speaker 1: you got injured, you don't have a bunch of money.
Speaker 1: To me, you bring him back one because I don't
Speaker 1: know if any of these players in the draft, including
Speaker 1: Kayleb Williams, will be as good of a player as
Speaker 1: him when he is healthy. He's a legitimate in the
Speaker 1: mix to be a tough seven Kylor quarterback in the NFL.
Speaker 2: We don't like Arizona's infrastructure, their coach, or their owner.
Speaker 2: In a division with McVeigh Pete Carolyn Shanahan, he made
Speaker 2: him a playoff team. Kyler can play.
Speaker 1: I texted a couple execs today, I said, what could
Speaker 1: they get for Kyler? They're like, well, they already paid
Speaker 1: the big bonus and a lot of money in the contract,
Speaker 1: because that's how these NFL contracts work. I think easily
Speaker 1: if he keeps playing like he's looked the last couple
Speaker 1: of weeks physically, they could get a first round pick. Yes, Jason,
Speaker 1: what do you think a couple of seconds? So his
Speaker 1: his value, Like to me, Justin Field's value isn't that great.
Speaker 1: He's still because it's his rookie contract's over. He hasn't
Speaker 1: proven that much beside running around like Kyler has proven
Speaker 1: that he can, even to the day against the Texans,
Speaker 1: who are clearly pretty good. He's taking a team full
Speaker 1: of nobody's running around. You're like, Jesus, guy looks good
Speaker 1: second game off an ACL liner, but he plays the
Speaker 1: quarterback position a little more naturally for a running quarterback,
Speaker 1: where Justin Fields his sweet plays are just runs. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like it's in the natural flow of
Speaker 1: the game. Yeah and yeah, so I'm with you, I
Speaker 1: Caleb Williams, I think Drake May is really fallen for people. Now,
Speaker 1: I think the Oregon and Washington quarterback are gonna be
Speaker 1: fascinating evals. They've continued to excel. But I think Kyler
Speaker 1: is really for a guy. A year ago we were
Speaker 1: all making fun of couldn't stop playing video games in
Speaker 1: the contract to then getting injured. Listen, men mature later
Speaker 1: than others, like I matured a lot in my late
Speaker 1: twenties early thirties, So to think that Kyler couldn't grow
Speaker 1: a little bit. They named him a captain and I
Speaker 1: first thought, maybe they're just doing that, you know, to
Speaker 1: increase his value. What if they actually kind of like him? Right?
Speaker 1: How many people do you meet that other people have
Speaker 1: told you, like, this guy's not a great guy, or
Speaker 1: this guy's a bad guy, and then you meet him
Speaker 1: and you kind of like him. What if they just
Speaker 1: have good interactions with him. He's playing well, he's done
Speaker 1: everything they've asked him to do, and they just enjoy
Speaker 1: the Kyler Murray Kyler Murray experience experience. Plus, their head
Speaker 1: coach was around Jalen Hirts for a couple of years
Speaker 1: as the defensive coordinator, so maybe he knows how dangerous
Speaker 1: guys like this are. If I'm guessing right now Kyler
Speaker 1: Murray is a starting quarterback for the years of the
Speaker 1: Cardinals next year.
Speaker 2: So we as we pivot back to Justin Fields, my
Speaker 2: takeaway is they're going to have the first pick, and
Speaker 2: because they lost again this was a winnable game they lost,
Speaker 2: they're probably going to have the first pick in the
Speaker 2: fifth or sixth pick, so you know there, Eberflus is done.
Speaker 2: That's done. I don't know about the GM, but Eberflus
Speaker 2: is done. This is not one of the richer ownership groups.
Speaker 2: Virginia mccaskey's the oldest owner, one of the forest owners.
Speaker 2: She relied on Bill Pollian to hire eber Flues. I
Speaker 2: think he's done. It's gonna be really interesting the idea.
Speaker 2: If you're not gonna take Caleb Williams, okay, there's no
Speaker 2: question somebody else will take it, So you could I mean,
Speaker 2: here's where you could say, Chicago goes Okay, we're gonna
Speaker 2: stick with Justin Field. I wouldn't. I think Caleb Williams
Speaker 2: is absolutely better. I think he's more accurate, he's more natural,
Speaker 2: he's equally as athletic. He's a power thrower and he's
Speaker 2: never been hurt and he gets banged around by us.
Speaker 2: He's crappy offensive line. So I'm I am. I think
Speaker 2: if Andrew Luck was a ten prospect, he's an eight
Speaker 2: and a half to a nine, Justin Fields was a six,
Speaker 2: I would do it in a heartbeat. Plus Fields has
Speaker 2: been in the NFL several years, He's been hurt a lot,
Speaker 2: like a lot. So but my thing is you could
Speaker 2: get for that pick. If you want to keep Fields, John,
Speaker 2: you know you're getting at least two first ye least
Speaker 2: two first.
Speaker 1: I But to me, it makes no sense to not
Speaker 1: start the clock over right because one of the most
Speaker 1: powerful things a rookie quarterback has is the contract. Well,
Speaker 1: Fields next year will be going into year four, and
Speaker 1: I mean, this guy's not getting some long term contract.
Speaker 1: So even if you got to unload him for a
Speaker 1: fourth round pick to the Atlanta Falcons, who cares? Because
Speaker 1: I think you're playing with house money with the second pick.
Speaker 1: Then who knows. We've seen some of these teams last year.
Speaker 1: The Lions are a good example. They went from like
Speaker 1: six to twelve, picked up an extra high second round
Speaker 1: pick and got their starting tight end. So you can
Speaker 1: utilize that to gain more picks because they did screw up,
Speaker 1: you know, in my mind, trading for Sweat just given
Speaker 1: they could have just paid him that contract on the
Speaker 1: open market and use a second round pick. A second
Speaker 1: round pick are so valuable. But with some of their maneuvering,
Speaker 1: maybe they're viewing we could play around and gain some
Speaker 1: picks back if we use that second round pick to
Speaker 1: move back seven spots, you know, to take an offensive
Speaker 1: lineman at twelve and get an extra second round pick.
Speaker 1: So I guess I could see some logic there if
Speaker 1: that's what they end up doing. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I would be stunned. Now. I think the big picture
Speaker 1: question is gonna because it's already been out there, is
Speaker 1: the Eli Manning John elway are they going to demand?
Speaker 1: Are you know that we're not gonna go there?
Speaker 2: We're a long way.
Speaker 1: I think it's a little harder to do when things
Speaker 1: have not gone super well for you as a player,
Speaker 1: even though it's not all your fault. But you look
Speaker 1: back at Eli Manning. It's not like Ole Miss was
Speaker 1: going twelve to zero when he was playing there, right right,
Speaker 1: But he did have the Manning name and his brother
Speaker 1: was already a superstar. John Elway's another example. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure what was Stanford like six and six
Speaker 1: when he came out to the pros, So you could argue, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's seven and five. Who cares? I mean, it's just
Speaker 1: the prospect is separate from the program, which is true.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I think Kayleb Williams the way
Speaker 1: this has played out, I thought Drake May had a
Speaker 1: pretty good shot a month ago, but holy shit, he's
Speaker 1: been a lot worse. Yesterday against a Clemson defense, which
Speaker 1: is really good. He just hasn't looked as good. And
Speaker 1: that's that's part of evaluating the prospect is the more
Speaker 1: games you play, the more I get on you, especially
Speaker 1: when you play better teams. Sam Hartman this year transfers
Speaker 1: Notre Dame. Could this guy be like a second round
Speaker 1: pick because his first couple games looked incredible. They were
Speaker 1: playing nobody. Then they started playing people, and he looked
Speaker 1: like an undrafted free agent.
Speaker 2: By the way, Pennix in a rain storm made a
Speaker 2: couple of huge throws in that game. Husky, Yeah, Husky's
Speaker 2: never had the ball, but Pennix, to me, Caleb's the
Speaker 2: best quarterback I've seen. Pennix throws the prettiest ball. Bo
Speaker 2: Nicks feels like the best leader. Drake May's got talent,
Speaker 2: but you know it's fallen off. So you and I
Speaker 2: both agree we would take Caleb number one if we
Speaker 2: were the Chicago.
Speaker 1: Bears without a yes right now, yes.
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's now let's talk some college football. So
Speaker 2: I was thinking about USC and texting some friends, and
Speaker 2: I said, if you go look at college football, let
Speaker 2: me name the six or seven best programs the last
Speaker 2: eight or nine years. LSU, Bama, Georgia, Ohio State, Michigan,
Speaker 2: Brian Kelly's Notre Dame teams, Clemson, Oklahoma a little bit,
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't quite put him in that class. And
Speaker 2: I said, the one thing they all and Oregon, Oregon's
Speaker 2: up there, the one thing they've had in common. It's
Speaker 2: not corners and receivers, it's not quarterbacks. They recruit the
Speaker 2: best large men Oregon, as you well know. Penay Seule's
Speaker 2: another example. I've watched Oregon play twice this year. John.
Speaker 2: They are big, they are Michigan big. They are a
Speaker 2: big team. Washington's talented. They don't look like Oregon. Okay,
Speaker 2: USC has not recruited big people when the best recruited
Speaker 2: are in your staff is a defensive back coach, You're
Speaker 2: in trouble. When Pete was there, the best recruiter was
Speaker 2: ed Orgeron right. USC is small, and Lincoln Riley is
Speaker 2: out here calling plays. That's how micro us he has been.
Speaker 2: They have fallen in love with Sark and Kiffing and
Speaker 2: play callers and play designers. USC is compared to Oregon,
Speaker 2: is a small football team. And I've watched them over
Speaker 2: the course of the last several years, and I said,
Speaker 2: they're best recruiter. Every college staff has a guy who
Speaker 2: just recruits. He can't coach. He can recruit USC's best
Speaker 2: recruiters a defensive back coach. Don't know how good of
Speaker 2: a coach he is. But the guys in the secondary, certainly,
Speaker 2: they've plateau. They don't get better when people look at
Speaker 2: USC's issues. I just keep saying the same thing. And
Speaker 2: I was told this by an NFL coach three years
Speaker 2: ago who was out of work. Briefly I met at
Speaker 2: a practice. He goes, they just don't look like Ohio State.
Speaker 2: They don't look like Texas. Even average Texas teams were
Speaker 2: big six seven oer line. USC has one defensive lineman,
Speaker 2: Bear Alexander who will play on Sunday. It's rush ends,
Speaker 2: it's two hundred and seventy five pound defensive linemen. So
Speaker 2: my takeaway is Lin's into this wizardry of play calling.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter they had Sark and Kiffen. They've always
Speaker 2: had good play callers. That's Arizona and Jed Fish. What
Speaker 2: makes you a seven eight top ten program is big
Speaker 2: guys up front.
Speaker 1: It hit me yesterday, think about the dynastyes in college
Speaker 1: football right the last fifteen years. Nick Saban defensive guy,
Speaker 1: the current one role in Georgia hasn't lost in forever.
Speaker 1: Defensive guy in the two thousands, Pete Carroll defensive guy.
Speaker 1: Watch Michigan. Now, Harbaugh's a former quarterback, but he probably
Speaker 1: wishes he could have played defensive tackle. Urban Meyer was
Speaker 1: an offensive line guy, or I mean an offensive guy.
Speaker 1: He was wide receiver coach. But he doesn't feel that
Speaker 1: way right. He feels like a tough guy in the trenches,
Speaker 1: and that's how he built his teams. Bob Stoop's defensive guy,
Speaker 1: and you watch Lincoln there is and I've been saying
Speaker 1: this forever. You are who your mentors are in football
Speaker 1: because when you're young, it really shapes who you are now.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you can't put your own spin on things.
Speaker 1: But he's a Mike Leach guy. Like that's he's a
Speaker 1: Mike Leach guy. Saban is a Belichick guy. Kirby is
Speaker 1: a Saban guy, right, I mean think about that, and
Speaker 1: you watched Kyle Whittingham's another guy who has who is
Speaker 1: wired like a tough guy. Who do he work for?
Speaker 1: Urban Meyer What that program has probably I don't even
Speaker 1: think it gets enough respect for they were in the
Speaker 1: whack fifteen years ago and what they have become in
Speaker 1: the past. They've gone to the Rose Bowl back to
Speaker 1: back years because he values the trenches. And when I
Speaker 1: think about those Pete Carroll teams, it was the offensive
Speaker 1: and defensive line, and I mean that's what Pete.
Speaker 2: And linebackers physical, big like bruising, blitzing linebackers.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine Lincoln having a trio of Ray mel Luga,
Speaker 1: Brian Cushing and Clay Matthews and Rivers they had the
Speaker 1: kid Rivers, Yeah, because because Cush or was it. Matthews
Speaker 1: didn't even start the one year he was a backup,
Speaker 1: And people like this guy might be the best prospect
Speaker 1: and he's the backup. Uh so, yeah, I just can't
Speaker 1: even at Oklahoma. His best teams were all fully loaded
Speaker 1: at the skill guys and the quarterback Kyle Baker, mix In,
Speaker 1: Ceedee Lamb, Hollywood Brown, Mark Andrews. But defense was the
Speaker 1: reason they couldn't win it. They had, they had a
Speaker 1: they had a championship level offense, but they were soft
Speaker 1: on defense. I don't think you fake that. Well, that's
Speaker 1: who you are, that's what you recruit. It's what you
Speaker 1: see in recruiting. Because he was trained through his first
Speaker 1: ten years of football as a player and then he
Speaker 1: went into coaching even before he was done by Leach.
Speaker 1: And what to me that it's kind of like the
Speaker 1: Mike D'Antoni of football. Offense, offense, offense, offense, offense. Well,
Speaker 1: that's never gonna win in It didn't win twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: it doesn't win now because you're gonna have to play Kirby,
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to play Nick. You're gonna have to
Speaker 1: play Ohio State or Michigan. Both those two teams have
Speaker 1: NFL guys everywhere.
Speaker 2: Here's something else you never see. Tennessee may lose, but Mike.
Speaker 2: Players are respectful, almost intimidated by the physical presence of Rabel.
Speaker 2: Same with Tomlin, same with Dan Campbell. I mean, if
Speaker 2: I said to you who plays hardest in the league,
Speaker 2: I could say Pittsburgh and Detroit. Those players respect that.
Speaker 2: Dan and Mike Tomalin are men. When you watch Alabama
Speaker 2: when they struggled early this year, they played their ass off.
Speaker 2: They were just incredibly limited at quarterback. Jim Harbaugh's team
Speaker 2: play hard USC against UCLA in the biggest game for
Speaker 2: the school in the alumni mailed it in they don't
Speaker 2: respect Lincoln. Lincoln. Lincoln is very twenty twenty three is
Speaker 2: like media people. It's treat the player great, and it's
Speaker 2: all about the player, and it's all about the play calling.
Speaker 2: I thought the effort by USC was disrespectful to the
Speaker 2: coaching staff at USC. Chip Kelly's on the hot seat.
Speaker 2: That team was high fiving, fist pumping, jumping up and down,
Speaker 2: played with incredible intensity. USC acted like they didn't want
Speaker 2: to be there. And to me, that goes back to
Speaker 2: the coach. If you have limitations. I mean, Chip's got
Speaker 2: some limitations at quarterback right now. There's not a lot
Speaker 2: he can do right you and I watch. You watch
Speaker 2: certain teams and you just say, you know, there's limitations
Speaker 2: for Pete Carroll. What is he going to do at
Speaker 2: quarterback when Gino's out and Drew Lot comes in. There's
Speaker 2: nothing you can do. If I was a USC administrator
Speaker 2: or a booster like that team, they they didn't respect Lincoln.
Speaker 2: That was an absolutely lethargic effort.
Speaker 1: We talked about it last week. You know my thoughts
Speaker 1: on geographically the fit, I think it's clearly really weird.
Speaker 1: I think there's a mercenary element because a lot of
Speaker 1: times in college football, when I get a star coach,
Speaker 1: I get him from another program that's not on my level.
Speaker 1: Like Florida got Urban from Utah. USC got Pete Carroll
Speaker 1: he was out of work. Washington got Chris Peterson from Boise.
Speaker 1: It's usually it means a lot to them. Like when
Speaker 1: you look at Kirby Smart or Nick Saban, Ryan Day
Speaker 1: or we're obviously Jim Harball. Their program means everything. Usually
Speaker 1: you don't get Oklahoma to USC, right, you would go
Speaker 1: from I don't know, like in Arizona State you win
Speaker 1: twelve games back to back years and then USC gets you,
Speaker 1: and it means a lot to you watch Lincoln Riley.
Speaker 1: He's there for one one reason only. They gve him
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty million dollars. Yeah, and there's an
Speaker 1: apathy to me when you watch the program. I had
Speaker 1: a scout tell me he thinks going to a lot
Speaker 1: of these programs and he's been on the road for
Speaker 1: twenty plus years. The rivalries are not the same with
Speaker 1: all the transferring. It used to be embedded in you, right,
Speaker 1: like a family. You're taught from the moment you get
Speaker 1: into the program and by the time. It's why when
Speaker 1: you hear older NFL players in their thirties talk about
Speaker 1: a certain rivalry. If you're Ohio State game, the Michigan gamer,
Speaker 1: you're a Bama guy, the Auburn gamer, duke North Carolina,
Speaker 1: it means it was ingrained into them in the moment
Speaker 1: they Now it's kind of become a little which I'm
Speaker 1: for transferring. It's awesome with the quarterbacks, but you're watching
Speaker 1: some of these games. I didn't think it meant anything
Speaker 1: to usc anything. And I mean personally, I know I'm
Speaker 1: not as big a Chip Kelly guy. I don't think
Speaker 1: he cares that much about the program. But like his
Speaker 1: clearly cared more than Lincoln, and two games matter a
Speaker 1: lot to USC people like are their rivals Notre Dame
Speaker 1: and UCLA. Yep, you know, the the Utah game, the
Speaker 1: Oregon game, the Washington game. Obviously, especially Oregon Washington. They're
Speaker 1: better than you. I think people can stomach that. But
Speaker 1: to get be lifeless against those two teams imagic. Being
Speaker 1: the sixty year old guy who's been cutting big checks
Speaker 1: is a big part of the program that those two
Speaker 1: nights a year mean a lot to that individual. And listen,
Speaker 1: I he's not gonna go anywhere because of the contract,
Speaker 1: but I just don't see the fit. I don't see
Speaker 1: it working. And you have to wonder if there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people like, oh my, because at least
Speaker 1: with Chip right, he's not the amount of money they
Speaker 1: paid him, even though I think he got a contract
Speaker 1: extension whatever last year. It's not nearly on the level.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like a Jimbo Fisher level on
Speaker 1: steroids contract. So you're just kind of got to make
Speaker 1: this work, and it's by you. If I would have
Speaker 1: told you at the beginning of the season that they
Speaker 1: went seven to five, you would have said, well, Caleb
Speaker 1: shatters his leg early on in the season, maybe like
Speaker 1: their defensive coordinator gets fired after week you would have
Speaker 1: said insane, It would have been impossible, like an awful
Speaker 1: year for them, felt like on paper nine and three right,
Speaker 1: they didn't beat anybody that they should have been. And honestly,
Speaker 1: they're very, very lucky to win that Arizona game. They
Speaker 1: easily could be six and six. Yes, to me, they're
Speaker 1: much closer to six and sixteen than they are nine
Speaker 1: and three teen.
Speaker 2: Yep, Arizona had them. Okay, one more college topic Harball,
Speaker 2: so the Big ten punishment is done. I do think
Speaker 2: it will be very hard, even at home, even with
Speaker 2: a superior team, to beat Ohio State without a coach,
Speaker 2: but it's certainly possible. So the feeling the reporting Bruce
Speaker 2: Feldman among others on Harball is okay. NCAA punishment is
Speaker 2: going to be far worse. People are saying he won't
Speaker 2: be allowed next year to be on the sideline, and
Speaker 2: I'll just give you my my take on that. So
Speaker 2: the LA Chargers will not pay for Harball. They just
Speaker 2: won't stop the Spanosys do. Chicago's a mess. You start
Speaker 2: looking around, Washington's interesting, but they don't have a quarterback.
Speaker 2: The idea that Harbor says, Okay, I can't be on
Speaker 2: the sidelines next year. According to the NCAA, I lose
Speaker 2: twenty scholarships over three years. It's a pretty stack roster.
Speaker 2: Even with their NFL losses. This is now a completely
Speaker 2: two team. It's a two team conference. Oregon Washington will
Speaker 2: be viable. US he's a mess and UCLA is not
Speaker 2: in Michigan's class. And I thought I could see Harbaugh saying, Hey,
Speaker 2: I got my kids, my dad lives next to me
Speaker 2: in an arbor. I'm gonna stay here. I did the NFL,
Speaker 2: I got to a Super Bowl? Is that my legacy?
Speaker 2: Now I'm not. I'm not leaving Michigan. And it wouldn't
Speaker 2: hurt him if they don't win the National Championship. You
Speaker 2: can't take it from him. If you vacated wins that
Speaker 2: never ding Pete Carroll, nobody gives a rip about that.
Speaker 2: If you don't let him be in the sidelines, I
Speaker 2: think you and I would agree they'd still win ten
Speaker 2: games next year. I mean, the key is coaching. That's
Speaker 2: the key that it's the weak, it's the preparation, it's
Speaker 2: not the management. Of a cup. I mean, Harbaugh isn't
Speaker 2: a guy barking in a headset throughout the course of
Speaker 2: a game. He's not. He's a very much a mentor
Speaker 2: to his He coaches, coaches.
Speaker 1: He doesn't call the plays calling. He's a motive. He's
Speaker 1: a figurehead kind.
Speaker 2: Of right, So like Lincoln Riley's are calling play that's
Speaker 2: not what he does. In mind takeaways, they'd win ten
Speaker 2: games without him on the sideline. They wouldn't beat Ohio.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't beat Ohio State in Columbus next year. But
Speaker 2: I think they get Penn stayed at home. The schedule
Speaker 2: is pretty favorable next year. Your thoughts on they end
Speaker 2: up either winning the Natty or finishing second. George is
Speaker 2: playing very well right now. He stays through fairly punitive
Speaker 2: discipline because he his takeaway is this is my legacy
Speaker 2: and I'm going to stick it out. I think we
Speaker 2: all a lot of people believe he's going to the NFL.
Speaker 2: I do not think there's many good jobs. I think
Speaker 2: the Charger is it, and I don't think they'd hire him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's two things on the big picture
Speaker 1: with Jim Harbaugh. I do think he's kind of just
Speaker 1: found his role. You know, Michigan's embraced him finally. It
Speaker 1: really works. He always kind of has that chip on
Speaker 1: his shoulder naturally, and now they got it back again
Speaker 1: when they're playing, and he's built the best team that
Speaker 1: he's had since he's been there, obviously, and he's gonna
Speaker 1: have moving forward. He got the kids all wearing the
Speaker 1: shirts like, it's kind of perfect for him. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm with you. I think there's a very good chance.
Speaker 1: And clearly what he means to them for them being
Speaker 1: this good, it's a twelve million dollars coach. Even if
Speaker 1: he gets suspended, who cares. I know, when you got
Speaker 1: an elite guy like it does not matter. And clearly
Speaker 1: they have no chance to upgrade, so they are going
Speaker 1: to have to throw an enormous contract in front of them,
Speaker 1: which clearly they already had, and then this came up.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's gonna change anything. The Raiders would
Speaker 1: be the one curve ball. But if even today they lost,
Speaker 1: but Antonio Pierce has proven to be maybe I think
Speaker 1: it's much easier for Mark Davis just to roll with him,
Speaker 1: not to pay as much and just take a deep
Speaker 1: breath for a couple of years. Yeah, I think Antonio
Speaker 1: Pierce says like the lead on that job, So I'm
Speaker 1: with you. The Bears and Chargers would be out short term. Though.
Speaker 1: This quarterback's making me a little nervous because we all
Speaker 1: annointed him. He looked really good the Penn State game.
Speaker 1: He's kind of got some twenty nineteen Jimmy Garoppolo vibes
Speaker 1: right now. They don't trust him. He throw a terrible
Speaker 1: pick in the Maryland game in the red zone. They
Speaker 1: didn't have him throw a past the previous week, partly
Speaker 1: because they didn't need to, but also is this guy
Speaker 1: playing his best football right now? So the way he's playing,
Speaker 1: do I trust them without Gym on the sideline, even
Speaker 1: if he is just their motivation style makes me a
Speaker 1: little nervous. But I do think this is gonna be
Speaker 1: Jim's finest hour this week. I mean, he's back to
Speaker 1: the forty nine er gays to the hell of the
Speaker 1: peak when they beat Pete Carroll is a forty one point.
Speaker 1: It's not the game, it's what he does leading up.
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna get him. That place is gonna
Speaker 1: be going bananas.
Speaker 2: It will be the highest rated college football game. Maybe
Speaker 2: since USC Tech it could be fifteen millions.
Speaker 1: Well, I saw, I looked it up. This week. Seventeen
Speaker 1: million people watched the twenty two game, which was the
Speaker 1: highest rated game in a decade. So if seventeen million
Speaker 1: watched last year, I mean, are they getting twenty this year?
Speaker 1: And that's that's like an NFL Monday night football game
Speaker 1: or something that's an enormous Yeah, watching football today because
Speaker 1: I'm guilty of this all. The Giant should just lose
Speaker 1: like the Packers, just mail it in. The one major difference,
Speaker 1: you know, the NBA has really battled the tanking no
Speaker 1: one takes in the NFL, even the shitty teams give you.
Speaker 1: The Giants are rolling out Tommy DeVito, who die hard
Speaker 1: football people couldn't point out of a lineup, and they're
Speaker 1: playing their ass off against the divisional opponent, the Bears today,
Speaker 1: I mean, are giving you everything they have against a
Speaker 1: Lions team that's gonna win thirteen or fourteen games. Listen,
Speaker 1: we can talk all we want about the product these
Speaker 1: quarterbacks hitting injured, but at least on any given game,
Speaker 1: regardless of the opponents, you get everyone's best effort. It
Speaker 1: may not always result in wins. But there's no like
Speaker 1: we're just gonna mail it in today, or oh, this
Speaker 1: guy's not gonna play, or this coach doesn't give a shit.
Speaker 1: That's not the case with the NFL at all. And that's,
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, a big variable that has helped
Speaker 1: separate the NFL as baseball and basketball just give up
Speaker 1: on the season, you know, a quarter of the way in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting you said that on JJ McCarthy.
Speaker 2: I'm not a huge fan. I'm not. I think he's undisciplined.
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily love his personality. If you told me
Speaker 2: today who I had to pick an order, it would
Speaker 2: be Caleb. I just want to dig deeper on Drake
Speaker 2: may Panix Bonix, the kid at Duke is interesting. Again,
Speaker 2: Let's just wait and see what transpires. I am not
Speaker 2: a JJ McCarthy fan. First of all, he misses some
Speaker 2: easy stuff. By the way Matt Stafford did today, you
Speaker 2: know they do like he misses easy stuff. But that
Speaker 2: I don't worry about Harbaugh not being on the sideline
Speaker 2: against the Ohio State in ann Arbor with this roster.
Speaker 2: I worry about JJ McCarthy. I'm just not sold on him.
Speaker 2: I just I think he's loose. I think he's a
Speaker 2: little cocky. I think he misses easy stuff. I don't
Speaker 2: I'm not a big fan.
Speaker 1: Well think about this too. The majority of their games
Speaker 1: these last couple of years with him as a starter
Speaker 1: have been pretty easy, right when you watch Pennix and
Speaker 1: bo Nix, I mean those guys.
Speaker 2: Pennix is in wild games every year.
Speaker 1: But he but going back to Indiana, he has played
Speaker 1: in games where to just put his team in position,
Speaker 1: he had to be unreal for the most part. JJ McCarthy.
Speaker 1: Some of these lines, I mean they are beating the
Speaker 1: living you know what out of just these teams that
Speaker 1: have no shot the moment they get off the bus
Speaker 1: against Michigan. So you get in some of these tight spots,
Speaker 1: it's like, God, does this guy even know what he's doing?
Speaker 1: And he does not feel as confident, he does not
Speaker 1: feel as calm. I also think we're too quick to
Speaker 1: like this guy has to come out. Maybe this I actually
Speaker 1: just stay in college all four or five years, however
Speaker 1: long he has eligibility. He's still an underclassman. He doesn't
Speaker 1: have to come out in the NFL. So, like I,
Speaker 1: at one point in time, people were talking about this
Speaker 1: guy being a top ten pick. To me, he is
Speaker 1: not remotely close to that now. And obviously this week
Speaker 1: is enormous. At some of these playoff games, if he
Speaker 1: plays in them, we'll be huge. But that Maryland game,
Speaker 1: and even going back to the Penn State game, what
Speaker 1: they didn't have him do I think is very reflective
Speaker 1: of their trust in the guy right now. And you
Speaker 1: can't tell me, and I don't even know like what
Speaker 1: the you know the parameters are of the suspension, but
Speaker 1: that Harbaugh didn't text him on at halftime at the
Speaker 1: Penn State game and said, we're not throwing the ball.
Speaker 1: Kyle Shanahan, NFC Championship. Do not. They cannot move the ball,
Speaker 1: run the ball every play. Do not let our quarterback
Speaker 1: screw us and give them a fumble six or a
Speaker 1: pick six. They are not scoring the ball. And I
Speaker 1: think it was a little they didn't have a choice
Speaker 1: this week where they had to have him throw a
Speaker 1: little bit, and you were just like holding on for
Speaker 1: dear life.
Speaker 2: All right, almost an hour. John Middlecoff forummer NFL Scout.
Speaker 2: He's at the volume three and out. He'll be all
Speaker 2: over Thanksgiving weekend. I will as well, all exciting stuff.
Speaker 2: As always, my man, we talked to a little Packers
Speaker 2: and Chargers, some justin fields Detroit and Chicago. For the record,
Speaker 2: got to give Detroit credit. They've lost that game for
Speaker 2: fifty years. They were outplayed, didn't play well. Fell behind
Speaker 2: the fact they came back and dominate the last quarter.
Speaker 2: They haven't done that my entire life. Like I said
Speaker 2: to myself, Okay, this is a different Detroit team. They've
Speaker 2: lost that game every single time they get out played.
Speaker 2: It's over. This is a totally different Lions Team's.
Speaker 1: Stat of the day. They're eight and two. It is
Speaker 1: the best start for the franchise since nineteen sixty two.
Speaker 1: Nineteen sixty two. That's in me shows he at this
Speaker 1: point in time, is the lock coach of the year
Speaker 1: right given the franchise that he's taken to be a
Speaker 1: Even if they end up with a three seed, I
Speaker 1: don't care. You win twelve plus game for the Detroit Lions.
Speaker 1: What a year, what a game.
Speaker 2: Have a good Thanksgiving buddy, See.
Speaker 1: You later, calling you too the vine.
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