1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,040
Speaker 1: Guys, I want to tell you I am so excited

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 1: and so blessed. Something wonderful is happening. Please join me

3
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,960
Speaker 1: on A and E. Grace versus Abrams, my sparring buddy

4
00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,040
Speaker 1: Dan Abrams and I take on the biggest cases and

5
00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:22,840
Speaker 1: investigations that our country has ever seen. Thursday night, eleven pm.

6
00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 1: Please join us again. I am so blessed, and you've

7
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,559
Speaker 1: been with me for all these years. Please join me

8
00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:45,000
Speaker 1: on A and E eleven pm. Thanks friend. Crime Stories

9
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,160
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one thirty two.

10
00:00:53,680 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 1: Four dead. A fifth victim left as a quadriplegic that

11
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 1: can see what's happening around him but can't move. That's

12
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:19,199
Speaker 1: what happened when a spoiled brat affluencity Ethan Couch got

13
00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:27,080
Speaker 1: behind the wheel high and mowed down a youth pastor,

14
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,480
Speaker 1: a young girl, her mother, another person who had tried

15
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,840
Speaker 1: to help them when the girl got a flat tire.

16
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 1: All dead except for the quadriplegic who lives who can't move,

17
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:52,240
Speaker 1: and now Ethan Couch set to walk free. As you

18
00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 1: will recall, his defense at court was he was too

19
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,880
Speaker 1: rich and affluent to fully appreciate what he had done.

20
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 1: I guess that means he hasn't lived with the rest

21
00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,920
Speaker 1: of us slubs like with the common people, so he

22
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,720
Speaker 1: can't relate to us. That's the defense. Are you kidding me? Well,

23
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 1: apparently at work because he's walking free. I mean, it's

24
00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,520
Speaker 1: he grace. This is crime stories. Thank you for being

25
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,160
Speaker 1: with us. Take a listen to what the one victim

26
00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:31,720
Speaker 1: who lived brother says as he helps will his paralyzed

27
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:37,200
Speaker 1: brother out covered in a blanket. All he can do

28
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:44,960
Speaker 1: is move his eyes. Listen. Basically, what'd you see here today?

29
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,160
Speaker 1: This is my brother and serie of the wind. This

30
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,400
Speaker 1: is how he's portrays him in for the best of

31
00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,960
Speaker 1: his life. Can you try to smile and tell him

32
00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:01,760
Speaker 1: that don't matter what happened, you're still here. Then you

33
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 1: still got dreams of playing soccer man living? Can you

34
00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,480
Speaker 1: tell him? And it's because of this woman right here,

35
00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: my mother. Man, it's because of hers. He's his angel.

36
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:21,960
Speaker 1: That being said, man's other worlds. It's not right. So

37
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,080
Speaker 1: what twenty days? So what one twenty eight days in county?

38
00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,960
Speaker 1: I think that that's nothing. Look at my brother, he's

39
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,959
Speaker 1: doing more than a day period or whatever. He's doing

40
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 1: more than ten years and on probation. Fin let him

41
00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,120
Speaker 1: send him down there and let him do the rest

42
00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 1: of his little sentence and let him come out. You

43
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,119
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, I hopefully he forgives himself, which

44
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 1: gives us and helps us, since he's got so much money.

45
00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Put it on there once you can.

46
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,840
Speaker 1: I remember it like it was yesterday. Ethan couch Hi

47
00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 1: all of his friends drawn off booze that they had

48
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,240
Speaker 1: stolen on surveillance video at a local seven eleven get

49
00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 1: out in his souped up Ford f three fifty seventy

50
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,920
Speaker 1: miles an hour in Brulston, Texas, where he's hosting a

51
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:21,080
Speaker 1: drunken party. Earlier that day, Couch and two of his

52
00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,960
Speaker 1: buddies is still in three cases of booze as a

53
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 1: local walmart and they all decide in the middle of

54
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,800
Speaker 1: the party they're gonna go back to the convenience store,

55
00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 1: and he plows into an suv stopped on the side

56
00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,240
Speaker 1: of the road after it blows a tire, killing the

57
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,880
Speaker 1: young girl driver, Brianna Mitchell, and three people who would

58
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 1: come to help her. Incredible, and now he walks free

59
00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,480
Speaker 1: and first of all he gets on probation and his

60
00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 1: mother he gets out of out of jail and his mother, yeah, Tanya,

61
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 1: she gets Ethan and they flee to Mexico. And then

62
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,560
Speaker 1: one night they spend two thousand dollars at a strip club,

63
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,159
Speaker 1: Thanks Mom, and they hide out at a four star

64
00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:23,520
Speaker 1: Mexican resort and only get caught when, out of just

65
00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,679
Speaker 1: sheer stupidity, or maybe they were both drunk, she orders

66
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 1: pizza on their US cell phone and the Feds track

67
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 1: them to their four star resort in Mexico. I mean,

68
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 1: Alexis terres Chuck joining me Radar online dot Com investigative reporter.

69
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 1: Have I missed a fact here? Alexis, No, you haven't.

70
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,520
Speaker 1: And the thing that is so shocking is that if

71
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,839
Speaker 1: this boy had been anything but a rich white boy,

72
00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,000
Speaker 1: he would have been in prison for the rest of

73
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,760
Speaker 1: his life. But because he was rich and he was

74
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 1: able to spend a ton of money on fancy lawyers

75
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,719
Speaker 1: and his mother escaped the country with him, he almost

76
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,599
Speaker 1: got away with these murders. I mean to you, Troy Layton,

77
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,640
Speaker 1: you're the high profile defense attorney joining us side of

78
00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,960
Speaker 1: l A. A blood test taken three hours later which

79
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,440
Speaker 1: gives all the substances in your body. Uh three hours

80
00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:25,320
Speaker 1: to subside and dissipate. Three hours after the crash, Ethan

81
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,560
Speaker 1: Couch was still three times the legal limit with both

82
00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,800
Speaker 1: marijuana and valium in his system. He was high as

83
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 1: a kite. I'm taking a look at the wreckage, the

84
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:42,040
Speaker 1: carnage of that crash that night. How did he walk

85
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:47,120
Speaker 1: free claiming he had affluenza? He was too affluent and

86
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 1: rich to know better. This is a sixteen year old child, Nancy.

87
00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:56,120
Speaker 1: And yes, what happened to those victims is a horrific tragedy.

88
00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,840
Speaker 1: But the purpose of the juvenile justice system is rehabilitation

89
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:07,719
Speaker 1: and not punishment. That's what the entire purpose for juvenile

90
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 1: He wasn't in juvenile he was in adult court. He

91
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,560
Speaker 1: was eventually transferred to adult court. Yes, but and he

92
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,320
Speaker 1: did serve a hundred and eighty days for each of

93
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 1: the four victims. So he served nearly two years in

94
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,040
Speaker 1: jail after he fled to Mexican Wit a minute, White

95
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 1: a minute. That was after he went on the run. Troy,

96
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 1: You're missing a few important facts, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor

97
00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 1: Troy Slaton conveniently left out some damning facts. Yeah, you know,

98
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 1: that's Troy's job as a defense turner. I used to

99
00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,880
Speaker 1: have his job in Troy, and more power to You've

100
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,800
Speaker 1: got a hard one on this, especially when we live

101
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 1: in a country where ironically we blame the crime rate

102
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,520
Speaker 1: on poverty. Think about this case with that backdrop, we

103
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,000
Speaker 1: have a fluenza. Hopefully that's not contagious. Thank god, it

104
00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,240
Speaker 1: hasn't been since this occurred, but we have been which

105
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 1: used as an explanation for crime instead of the opposite.

106
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 1: But you're right, Nancy, there's no way, even given the

107
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,840
Speaker 1: young age, that you can excuse this kind of conduct

108
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:15,040
Speaker 1: because another goal of punishment, another goal of sentencing is deterrence,

109
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,240
Speaker 1: and to deter others similarly situated from drinking and driving.

110
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 1: And like Troy and I know, being a being at

111
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,640
Speaker 1: three times the level so many hours after the fact

112
00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,600
Speaker 1: means this guy's b a must have been through the

113
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 1: roof at the time he was behind the wheel, because

114
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,080
Speaker 1: you drop, as you know, Nancy, a certain amount every hour.

115
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 1: So when you look at all of that in retrospect,

116
00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,960
Speaker 1: truth is stranger than fiction. As to how he got

117
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,160
Speaker 1: off as light as he did at trial, a psychologist

118
00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:49,280
Speaker 1: named Dick Miller said Ethan Couch. Ethan Couch, Okay, remember

119
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,720
Speaker 1: there's four dead people dead. A young girl, her mom,

120
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,679
Speaker 1: a youth minister that stopped trying to help her with

121
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 1: her tire, another person. The psychologist at trial says Couch,

122
00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: the guy who's high as the kite and and kills

123
00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 1: for people. He is the victim, the victim of quote

124
00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,679
Speaker 1: affluents up because his multi millionaire parents never taught him

125
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,320
Speaker 1: right from wrong. And the judge, Judge Gene Boyd, agreed

126
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,160
Speaker 1: and gave him a slap on the wrist of just

127
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,400
Speaker 1: ten years probation, with the condition he goes to rehabit

128
00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 1: doesn't drink. Yeah right. The prosecutors asked for a twenty

129
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 1: year prison term, but just a few months into his probation,

130
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,240
Speaker 1: a video was posted on Twitter and it showed him

131
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,079
Speaker 1: at a beer pong party. I wasn't even sure what

132
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,320
Speaker 1: beer pong actually was, but hold on, I've got Alan

133
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,679
Speaker 1: Duke with me, and I'm pretty sure he knows what

134
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,679
Speaker 1: beer pong is. What is it? Alan? It is a

135
00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,319
Speaker 1: game where you throw ping pong balls into little glasses

136
00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,319
Speaker 1: of beer. This party was pretty raucous. A minute you

137
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,880
Speaker 1: throw ping pong balls into beer and then what happens. Well,

138
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,760
Speaker 1: in this case, he slammed down on the table obviously drawn. No, no,

139
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,199
Speaker 1: what's the point in the game. Okay, so that's what

140
00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 1: beer pong is. And long story short, that Twitter video

141
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:28,000
Speaker 1: emerged showing Couch drunk apparently playing beer pong, and it

142
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,840
Speaker 1: triggered a probation revocation. Take a listen. It's short but sweet.

143
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,320
Speaker 1: This is the natural sound that we managed to get

144
00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 1: off Twitter and it shows Couch and some other guys

145
00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:56,240
Speaker 1: playing beer pong. Take a listen. Here you go. That

146
00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:02,960
Speaker 1: trigger that video posted on Twitter got Cow revoked, even

147
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,199
Speaker 1: though there was no evidence in the video he was

148
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:11,559
Speaker 1: actually drinking. Couch and his mother, Tanya, flee to Mexico

149
00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:16,400
Speaker 1: with the family dog rather than deal with that probation violation.

150
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:22,319
Speaker 1: After multiple weeks on the run, they were found living

151
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,719
Speaker 1: there in the resort town of Proto Viarda. They got

152
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,200
Speaker 1: cops got a ping off one of their cell phones

153
00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 1: when they ordered a Domino's pizza. I mean, really, they

154
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,160
Speaker 1: should go to Joel for for felony idiocy right there.

155
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,199
Speaker 1: But thousands of dollars were spent on their Mexican vacation

156
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:49,120
Speaker 1: at the harem h A R E. M harem strip club.

157
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,760
Speaker 1: Just hold that thought, strip club with your mom where

158
00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:02,320
Speaker 1: he was spotted snorting cocaine and converting with topless women. Okay,

159
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,280
Speaker 1: I just want that to see. Can do I have

160
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 1: the facts correct? Alexis tres Chuck. Yep, you do. But

161
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 1: the one thing is at the strip club, what he

162
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,319
Speaker 1: didn't do. He did not pay his bill, so he

163
00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,000
Speaker 1: fled out of there, kind of like everything else in

164
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,079
Speaker 1: his life that he has no responsibility. He doesn't have

165
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,760
Speaker 1: to take responsibility for killing people. And he doesn't even

166
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,800
Speaker 1: have to pay the stripper. You know. I always say

167
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,240
Speaker 1: you must always pay the stripper because that is what

168
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 1: gets you in trouble. Yeah, you better pay the stripper.

169
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,120
Speaker 1: You'll get cut out in the parking lot. Uh tow.

170
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,640
Speaker 1: Dr Carol Lieberman forensic psychiatrists and author of a brand

171
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,599
Speaker 1: new book on Amazon, Lions and Tigers and terrorists, Oh My,

172
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,280
Speaker 1: How to Protect your child in a time of terror

173
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:49,040
Speaker 1: dodgor Carol Lieberman, what is mommy thinking? Well, mommy and

174
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:56,960
Speaker 1: even have a psychological or emotional incestuous relationship. I mean, clearly,

175
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,280
Speaker 1: um taking your son to a strip club and and

176
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,679
Speaker 1: and taking him on the lamb um spoiling him in

177
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,240
Speaker 1: all these ways, but in a with a sexual tinge

178
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,199
Speaker 1: to it. It's part of what contributed to making him

179
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,720
Speaker 1: screwed up. And and I'm not giving any excuses. I mean,

180
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,440
Speaker 1: it is outrageous that he that the judge gave him

181
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,400
Speaker 1: as little penalty punishments as she did, but hard You

182
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,640
Speaker 1: know what, he had a number of things during his childhood. Again,

183
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,959
Speaker 1: not to excuse him, but like when he got in

184
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,120
Speaker 1: trouble in school, his father said that he would just

185
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,599
Speaker 1: buy the school um and so you know what that

186
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 1: that has been his his child His parents got divorced

187
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:42,800
Speaker 1: when he was ten. I mean there's been and his

188
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,839
Speaker 1: parents both have criminal records. So I mean, again not

189
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,560
Speaker 1: excusing him, but you can see that he comes from

190
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:54,240
Speaker 1: a kind of a cesspool of of psychopathology. You know what.

191
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,839
Speaker 1: I hear you, Dr Carol, But it's kind of hard

192
00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 1: for me to take in with me Private investigator Vincent

193
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 1: Hill joining us from the courthouse. Vincent, you know, I've

194
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 1: seen a lot of underprivileged defendants arguing their lawyers, arguing

195
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 1: they never had a chance. Sometimes I agree with them,

196
00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,000
Speaker 1: but that does not excuse the crime. Now they're trying

197
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: to argue he was too rich to ever have a chance.

198
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,600
Speaker 1: I'm not buying that for a New York minute, Vincent, Yeah,

199
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 1: I don't buy an NTO either. I mean, was o

200
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 1: J too affluent when he stabbed Ron and the coal?

201
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 1: I mean, was that his defense? You know, here's the thing.

202
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 1: I've worked a lot of these d U I cases.

203
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,640
Speaker 1: I've worked a lot of accidents. Nothing to the amount

204
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 1: of carnage that Ethan cosst that night, and the fact

205
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,440
Speaker 1: that he's getting out it is sickening. I've put people

206
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,560
Speaker 1: in jail for a dime bag of crack cocaine that

207
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 1: are still in jail to this day, years later. So

208
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 1: the fact that this individual killed four people and his

209
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,600
Speaker 1: excuses and I didn't know what I was doing because

210
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,720
Speaker 1: I'm rich, It's sickening. It should be sickening to any

211
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,760
Speaker 1: parent or any person in this country for that matter.

212
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 1: Guys are talking about a killer kid, Ethan Couch, who

213
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,280
Speaker 1: mos down four people dead and lays a fifth. At

214
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 1: quadriplegic for life. He can see life going by, he

215
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 1: can move his eyes and that's it. He sits contorted,

216
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 1: covered in a blanket and a wheelchair every single day

217
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:24,400
Speaker 1: of his life and now he is walking free. Troye Latton.

218
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,960
Speaker 1: How did that happen? He served his sentence, Nancy. The

219
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,440
Speaker 1: justice system worked, and he is gonna be not just

220
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,800
Speaker 1: walking free. He's going to have a sort of damn tocle.

221
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 1: He is hanging over his head with the potential of

222
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 1: going back into jail for forty years if he violates

223
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,600
Speaker 1: the very strict terms and conditions of probation that he'll

224
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 1: be under for six years. That means no drinking, no drugs.

225
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,440
Speaker 1: He's going to have an ankle monitor that continues. I mean,

226
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 1: it isn't what I told him to do last time.

227
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,280
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and and that got him put back in

228
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,280
Speaker 1: jail for two years. This time, if he violates, he

229
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 1: can go and back in for forty up to forty years, Nancy.

230
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 1: He's going to have a drug patch on his arm,

231
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,880
Speaker 1: monitoring whether or not he uses any drugs. He's going

232
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 1: to have an I I D and ignition interlocked device

233
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 1: with a camera in this car, meaning that nobody else

234
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 1: can blow into it for him. He's going to be

235
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 1: under a very watchful eye. This is gonna be no

236
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 1: walk in the park for him. He's not gonna just

237
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 1: be free and have the liberty that you and I have.

238
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,440
Speaker 1: They're gonna be watching him closely, Okay. Wendy Patrick Troice Lightton,

239
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 1: L a defense lawyer, says justice is working. We've got

240
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 1: a very different opinion on what justice is. I guess Wendy,

241
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 1: that's right. And you know, it's it's such a difficult

242
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 1: case because it's hard enough when there's a horrific accident

243
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 1: and there's remorse and there's rehabilitation, and there's a demonstrated

244
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 1: commitment to turning your life around, maybe being a role

245
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,040
Speaker 1: mow all to other young men who might be thinking

246
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,879
Speaker 1: of drinking and driving. We've seen the opposite approach with

247
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 1: Ethan Couch, and that's why this case has received such notoriety.

248
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 1: It's because, as you mentioned, the last time he got out,

249
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,119
Speaker 1: he flees to Mexico. He basically and I understand he

250
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,119
Speaker 1: doesn't have the benefit of role models. I love what

251
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,640
Speaker 1: Alexis said about cesspool of psychopathology. If that's true, one

252
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 1: wonders whether rehabilitation is possible. But you know what, this

253
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,879
Speaker 1: is his chance. We'll see what he does, and maybe

254
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:31,639
Speaker 1: it's going to be one of those cases where he

255
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 1: does violate and then justice is done. In the eyes

256
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 1: of so many, including the family of that quadriplegic, that

257
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,080
Speaker 1: he does have the rest of his life to think

258
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 1: about what he's done. But we'll see this is his

259
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,960
Speaker 1: one shot at it, because the court is not going

260
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,920
Speaker 1: to give him more than two chances. Three strikes and

261
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,359
Speaker 1: you're out. As far as this young man goes, affluence

262
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 1: attain ethan couch now one set to walk free. Another

263
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 1: killer kid. His name Dennis Cullen Jr. Police say he

264
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,480
Speaker 1: put his own mother, Elizabeth Cullen, in a headlock and

265
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:15,159
Speaker 1: drowned her and their upscale homes pool in the backyard.

266
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 1: When I asked how he was holding up in his

267
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:24,720
Speaker 1: cell at Riverhead Correctional Facility, he responds calmly and coolly, no,

268
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 1: I can't do this. So he's saying, uh, he quote

269
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:35,560
Speaker 1: can't do jail. This is the guy that methodically drowns

270
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 1: his mother dead in the backyard pool. Take a listen

271
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: to the Suffolk County prosecutor as he describes what Collin

272
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,920
Speaker 1: says about how he drowned drowned his own mother in

273
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 1: the swimming pool. Listen, he put her in a headlock,

274
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 1: walked from the shallow wind of the pool with her

275
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 1: in the headlock to the deep end of the pool.

276
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 1: All the time while she was struggling, he went in

277
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 1: the house, took a shower, went into his mom's wallet,

278
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: took money out credit card, um took her car to

279
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 1: the Cold Spring Harbor train station, drove the took a

280
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 1: train into Manhattan, met up with his sister. Explained to

281
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 1: his sister what happened. She notified the father, and then

282
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 1: the three of them returned to the Lord Harbor residence,

283
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,000
Speaker 1: where he was placed under arrest. Colin tales police. He

284
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 1: wraps his arms around his mother's neck, drags her to

285
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 1: the pool, yanked her into the deep end, and held

286
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 1: her under the water until she died. Now, this is

287
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 1: a former varsity lacrosse player. He was given every advantage

288
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,119
Speaker 1: his hard working parents could afford. Beautiful home in a

289
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 1: Tony Posh area, fancy school, varsityal across, you name it.

290
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: But his mom gets onto him about not taking his

291
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:05,440
Speaker 1: mad he snaps and kills her. To Alexis terres Chuck,

292
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,160
Speaker 1: investigative reporter with Radar online dot com, take me back

293
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 1: to that night. Give me what happens that night that

294
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 1: we know of. So what we know is that he

295
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 1: and his mother were arguing. She wanted him to take

296
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,400
Speaker 1: his medication. That that's how it's been described as medicine.

297
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 1: And they're so they're standing next to each other fighting.

298
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 1: She pokes him, physically pokes him with her hand and

299
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 1: he snaps. He grabs her there in the yard there,

300
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 1: and he grabs her, drags her in pool, puts her

301
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 1: in a headlock so that means basically wraps his elbow

302
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 1: around his mom's neck so she can't move her head,

303
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 1: and drags her through the swimming pool, starting in the

304
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: shallow and drags her and drags her into the deep

305
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 1: end of the pool. She's tiny, she's five too. He's

306
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 1: a big, tall guy, and he holds her under the water,

307
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: and he described it as he was surprised that she

308
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,639
Speaker 1: had that much fight in her because she was so tiny,

309
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 1: and he held her as he held her head under

310
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 1: the water. I'm just just thinking about how this whole

311
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: thing playing out. The grandson of the highest ranking US

312
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 1: Army officer killed in Vietnam put his own mother in

313
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 1: a headlock, drowning her in the family pool after she

314
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 1: berated him for not taking med's. It was a chilling

315
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: video confession Dennis Cullen Junior gives of cold spring harbor,

316
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,399
Speaker 1: gets into his mom, Elizabeth, and what did he do?

317
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: Instead of fight, arguing back, or saying yeah, mom, you

318
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: know what, you're right, or just turning around and leaving,

319
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 1: he puts her in the headlock, forces her into the

320
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: shallow w into the pool, drags her to the deep

321
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: end while she struggled violently. She's a very small woman,

322
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 1: as Alexis pointed out, drowns her. Then drags his mother's

323
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: five two body out of the pool, play stra next

324
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,479
Speaker 1: to the backyard shed in the backyard and covered her

325
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: body with a boat they had in the backyard. Goes

326
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: inside the multimillion dollar Whitehall Road home and there are

327
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: three acre spread, takes a shower, steals money from his

328
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 1: mother's wallet, and car takes the car drives to a

329
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: train station there in town, and he leaves on the train.

330
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: His sister calls their dad, who's a Chase Bank executive,

331
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 1: and the dad goes home and finds mom's dead body

332
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: when he goes to check on her. I mean, it

333
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: never seems to end. And now he plays not guilty

334
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: and wines about being behind bars. Wendy Patrick does it

335
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: is that summed up correctly? You're the do win it

336
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: with me? Is Wendy Patrick, Southern California prosecutor with a

337
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: heck of a track record, Wendy weigh in. You know, Nancy,

338
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 1: this has mental defense written all over it because listening

339
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: to the facts as you've described, and having read about

340
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: the case, this young man's actions both during and after

341
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: the crime are so counterintuitive and impossible to understand from

342
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: a normal perspective. Whoever gets assigned to this case is

343
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: going to have to try to get inside this kid's head.

344
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: We already know there's an issue of medication. I found

345
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: it telling that he takes his mom cars, Mom's car.

346
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: Where's his car? I mean, this is a somebody like

347
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: you say, varsity lacrosse, beautiful home, comfortable life. One of

348
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: the things we're gonna have to look at is was

349
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: this kind of a reaction foresteeable. Is this a man

350
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: that can possibly have a potentially successful mental defense or

351
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: is this the kind of psycho pathology that will be

352
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: relevant maybe two sentencing, but certainly never rise to the

353
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: level of something that's gonna save him in trial. Joining

354
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: me right now, Dr Carroll Lieberman, forensic psychiatrist author of

355
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: brand new book on Amazon dot Com Lions, Tigers and Terrorists,

356
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: Oh My, How to Protect Your Child in a Time

357
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: of Terror. Dctor Carol, He may be on med's, but

358
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: his actions that night were methodical. He got into an

359
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: argument with his mom, so he drowns her dead. Then

360
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: he hides the body, takes a shower to get rid

361
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: of evidence, steals money, and flees the scene. That sounds

362
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: perfectly rational to me. Dr Carol Lieberman, Well, there are

363
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: a number of clues that I is a psychiatric expert

364
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: witness would want to follow up. I mean, first of all,

365
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: he was twenty three. That is a typical age for

366
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: a schizophrenic break. The medication would give a clue, of course,

367
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: depending upon what kind of MIDS it was, whether it's

368
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: a MIDS for schizophrenia or bipolar or something. And then um,

369
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: he says that, I mean, he was the only one there,

370
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: so he's presumably is the one unless they had cameras

371
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: in the backyard, he's the one that said that. Um,

372
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: she confronted him about his pills and poked him. Now

373
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: poked him. Is that I think is fascinating because again,

374
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: if that really is what happened that obviously triggered this rage.

375
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: So then you have to look at was he um

376
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: physically or sexually abused as a little boy, and did

377
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: that trigger a memory of somebody his mother or somebody

378
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: else poking him? Um? Why was that the thing that

379
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: that drove him off the edge. And then another thing

380
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: that's interesting, and this seems more psychopathic, is um that

381
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: he got on the train, he called his sister and

382
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: so on, and then he and his father and his

383
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: sister they came to the home and they met the

384
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: police and he you know where the police were waiting,

385
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: and they cuffed him. And it's it's so quietly in

386
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: other words, Um, you know, he just kind of went

387
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: there and then he confessed and and that is strange

388
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: as well. So all of these things you have to

389
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: kind of put together to decide what kind of psychiatric

390
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: problem he has. Not that not that that would necessarily

391
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: get well hold on everybody you're all talking about his

392
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: mental state. Joining me, Private investigator Vincent Hill. What I

393
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: have learned, Vincent, is that this guy, a charge with

394
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: drowning his mother in the pool of their one point

395
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: nine million dollar mansion, had been taking heroin since high school.

396
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: That's his ailment, Vincent Hill. He's been on heroin since

397
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: high school and his mom had him in treatment. Yeah,

398
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: that's the deal, Vincent. The pill he wasn't taking was

399
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: his method home pill. We don't know. This reminds me

400
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: of the case I worked when I was in Nashville

401
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: where a son shot his mother in the head with

402
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: a shotgun for six d dollars. The key important thing

403
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: here is there's only one person telling this story about

404
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: the pill and she poked him, and that is the

405
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: suspect in this case, the sun. So yeah, we can

406
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: talk this, Uh, psychology, we can talk all of that,

407
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: but I think it still comes down to the elements

408
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: of what happened that night to cause him to do

409
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: that outside of the psychiatric piece of it. Was it money?

410
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: Was it something else? If he was taking heroin? He

411
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: took her car, he took her credit cards, he took

412
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: her money. Was he trying to go out and score

413
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: more drugs that night? We don't know. I think that

414
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: will come out in court. Well. His mom, Mrs Cullen,

415
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: and her investment banker husband Dennis, had been members of

416
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: the Cold Spring Harbor Social Club, but they really began

417
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 1: to withdraw from society and the local scene when their

418
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: son's drug problem began. Now he was arrested in charging

419
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: the brutal death of his mom after he tells cops

420
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 1: he was really surprised his mother struggled so much when

421
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: he dragged her out of the shower, had walked her

422
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: through the house and then pulled her from the shallow

423
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: into the deep end of their pool and a headlock

424
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: she had gotten the shower. He comes up on her

425
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: in the shower and all he has to say is

426
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: why I was really surprised he fought back so much.

427
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: This varsity and lacrosse player at Cold Springs High School

428
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: had been in a row with his mom over antipsychotic medication.

429
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: We know that he had been. She had gotten him

430
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: in treatment for his heroine addiction. And then he has

431
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: the good sense to take a train to New York

432
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: to go to his sister's home and confess. He then

433
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: gives a chilling, cold hearted confession to detectives, but pleads

434
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: not guilty. Is that right, alexis to Russia like he

435
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: has pled not guilty on this offense. YEP, that's exactly right.

436
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: And he's saying that I didn't I don't know if

437
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: the words I didn't do it. I'm not a lawyer,

438
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: y'all are, but he with not guilty. He's saying, I'm

439
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: not responsible for this death after everything, confessing to a

440
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: sister admitting it. And his dad was there, and he

441
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: was there when they found her body under a dinghy,

442
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: under a little family vote and in the shed. Just

443
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: left her there naked in the yard. You know, that's

444
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: a whole another psychological aspect of this troice Laton with me,

445
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: famed l a defense lawyer that not only did he

446
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: kill his mother murder her, he leaves her body naked

447
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: in the backyard to be found hidden under the family boat.

448
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: I'm so excited if I were to be a defense

449
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: attorney in a case like this that, well, those are

450
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: three words I didn't expect. I'm so excited. But go ahead, Troy.

451
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: Both the prosecutor and the psychological expert that spoke before

452
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: me laid out the exact offense. This is a man

453
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: who was on anti psychotic medication, was being treated for

454
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: a psychological UH deficiency. He was on heroin, which is

455
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: common for people that are suffering from psychiatric illness to

456
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: self medicate to fight the demons that they're fighting to

457
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: numb themselves. And then he is physically attacked by his

458
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: mother who's poking him, And certainly right, did you say

459
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: physically attacked because she takes her index finger and and

460
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: punches him in the shoulder. That's the attack, Troy. That

461
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: is by definition both an assault and a battery. It's

462
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: unwelcomed touching. Did you ever prosecute your mother for a

463
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: spanky spanky, then I'm sure you deserved, Troy. Well, maybe

464
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: a spanky spanky to a five year old, but to

465
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: a twenty three year old grown man, that's an assault,

466
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: and it likely triggered this entire psychotic break and the

467
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 1: reason why he was probably taking this antipsychotic medication caused

468
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: him to do this horrific thing, which he freely admitted

469
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: that he did and then walked back into the army.

470
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: The only thing he sounds shocked about, Troy s Lightnes

471
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: is the fact that he admitted he did it. Family shot.

472
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: It came a husband was shoot son. The gun playing

473
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: where it was didn't seem as a self inflicted wound

474
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: that we've had in the past. We immediately spoke to

475
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: h Mrs Gilbert and she told us where her son lived.

476
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: I want to move on to another killer kid. His

477
00:31:53,440 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: name is Thomas Gilbert Jr. A spoiled rot in Princeton

478
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: grad who murders his dad for hold on everybody. As

479
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: my son says, wait for it, wait for it. Mom

480
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: kills his dad for cutting his allowance, cutting his allowance

481
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: to Wendy Patrick, Southern California prosecutor, tell me about Thomas

482
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: Gilbert please, Thomas Gilbert Jr. Yeah, you know, this is

483
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: one of those cases, Nancy, where again it looks like

484
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: there's something going on behind the scenes mentally with this

485
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: kid in order to be able to understand he's you please,

486
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: but saying that he's mad, he's angry, he's getting his

487
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: allowance cut, right, Nancy. But that's going to be the

488
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: defense And and from with my prosecutors had on clearly

489
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: that his actions speak louder than words, and that shouldn't

490
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: be something that the jury is going to be able

491
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: to consider to walk him. But from the defense perspective,

492
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: you know, that's what they're gonna argue merely because of

493
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: the sheer insanity of that. And I put that word

494
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: in quotes. For sure, this shared just unreasonable nature of

495
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: why this would possibly set somebody off. So we're gonna

496
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: be looking at the background of this man. We're gonna

497
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: be looking at his activity after the fact, and as

498
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: you're a psychologists, as our psychologist colleagues are going to say,

499
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: is this somebody that's more lingering or faking an illness

500
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: in order to try to get out from under this

501
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: horrendous crime that he's faced. I've got to ask a

502
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: very important question, choice light before you tune up again.

503
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: Alexa's terrest checked. There's Luke and Owen Wilson. Which one

504
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: is the blond one? Owen, You're a little slow on

505
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: the uptight there, Alexa. I'm sorry for you. It's Owen Owen.

506
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: This guy looks a little bit like Owen Wilson with

507
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: the steely blue eyes glaring at you. He's got uh

508
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: fine uh finally, etched features a perfectly straight nose. You

509
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: should see his teeth. I'm sure they had to spend

510
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: at least ten grand on that mouth. This is how

511
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: it goes down, alexis the dad Senior is a hedge

512
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: fund boss. The mom, Shelly says she knew immediately her

513
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: son Thomas did it because that day he insisted the

514
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 1: mom go out of the apartment and go get him

515
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: the son a sandwich. I mean really, I mean that's

516
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: just the whole another can of worms right there. So

517
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: the mom leaves to go get him a sandwich, and

518
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: she comes back. She just stepped out, briefly, gets the sandwich,

519
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: comes back, her husband's dead on the floor, and it's

520
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: been set up to look like suicide. Gee, I wonder

521
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: who did that. Apparently Junior staged the scene of his

522
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: father's shooting to make it look like a suicide, but

523
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: the mom knew immediately it was murder. Okay, there's a

524
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 1: lot of pictures of him at fancy society sin Digs,

525
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: wearing a tuxedo, flashing ten thousand dollar smile. But here's

526
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: what led to the arrest. The PC probable cause because

527
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: his allowance was going to be cut, a weekly allowance

528
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: from six hundred to four hundred. Yes, yes, from six

529
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: hundred to four hundred a week. This is a rotten

530
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: Princeton grad living off his mom and dad. Alexis to arrest, Like,

531
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: what are the rest of the facts as we know

532
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: them now? So when he gets arrested and starts going

533
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: through the court system, he checks out, He doesn't show

534
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: up for things, he refuses to speak. He basically is

535
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: pretending that I don't pretending might not be the right word,

536
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: but he is acting as if he doesn't have any

537
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: interest in this case. What's ever trying to set up

538
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: a defense of that he is psychotic. And then he

539
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: cannot participate in this at all. But you know, the

540
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: judge almost bought into this, and this is another affluencic case.

541
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: You know, she wrote that this is an atypical defend

542
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: and he stands over judge saying that stands over six

543
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: ft tall, has blonde hair and blue eyes, as if

544
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: having blonde hair and blue eyes means you don't commit

545
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: a crime. So she's prince blue eyes. But that's another

546
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 1: topic for another day. Go ahead. He then, just as

547
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 1: I said, checks out completely, doesn't participate in anything for

548
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: the trial, trying to set it up as if he

549
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: is insane. But New York has one of the strictest

550
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: is one of the strictest states in the country. They

551
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: never allow a mental defense, very very very rarely. It's

552
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: it's a huge effort to get that. And so he

553
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: was forced to stand trial for his dad's murder. Well

554
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: here's the deal. Senior. Gilbert Senior had been a very

555
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: successful Wall Street banker who lived in an Upper east

556
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: Side brown stone that costs a lot of money. Then

557
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: he tried to start his own hedge fund and it failed.

558
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: He had to sell his home and start renting an apartment.

559
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: It was still in a tony area of town. It

560
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: was at Beatmon Place. They had owned a home in

561
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: the Hampton's They rented that out. They had been a

562
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: member of the high class Maidstone Club like a country club.

563
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: Now the son as the father, is hitting hard times

564
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: renting out their home, renting an apartment. Gilbert Jr. Known

565
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: as Tommy, meanwhile, it was not working. Even though he

566
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 1: had an economics degree from Princeton University. People would give

567
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: their eye teeth to get in Princeton University. You know what, Um,

568
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've told you guys that my

569
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: little nephew, one of them is well, they're also and smart.

570
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: One went to brown when just my nephet niece went

571
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: to Stanford. The one the other one, um just got

572
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: into Chicago and n y U and just all sorts

573
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: of awesome schools for a graduate degree. When we found

574
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: out we all started crying because awesome schools like that

575
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: just don't happen to regular people like us. It was

576
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,439
Speaker 1: just such a dream come true. And here's this guy

577
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 1: with a silver spoon hanging out of his mouth and

578
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: economics degree from Princeton University. He relies on his dad

579
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: to cover his twenty four hundred dollar rent. That's two thousand,

580
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: four hundred dollars a month rent on his Chelsea apartment

581
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: plus a weekly six hundred dollar allowance Vincent Hill, private investigator.

582
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: You and I kind of grew up alike hundred dollars

583
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: rent plus twenty dollars spending money a month off your dad. Well, listen, Nancy,

584
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: my son would be lucky if he got twenty four

585
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: dollars for me, you know, because doing chores and that

586
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: things are things you're supposed to do as a child. Um,

587
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: but you know, I want to stay listen. If he's pleading,

588
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: you know, mental illness, I call crap on that, because

589
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: if you stage a scene of a crime to make

590
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: it look like something else, you were in your right mind.

591
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: You had your right census to know exactly what you

592
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: were doing, So you can't come back later and say

593
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,479
Speaker 1: mentally ill. But yet you were in your right mind

594
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: to stage this crime scene to make it look like

595
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: your dad killed himself. You know, that's an excellent point,

596
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: did Dr Carol Lieberman, forensic psychiatrists and author of a

597
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: Brandy book on Amazon? Vincent Hill is right, he stayed

598
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: to to look like a suicide. He's that crazy. Well,

599
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, yes, that's the one thing that kind of

600
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: points to the fact that at least at the time

601
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: of the crime, he knew what he was doing. But

602
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: and even further, uh, the mother actually it was her

603
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: father who committed suicide, so he may well not only

604
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 1: was he trying to make it look like a suicide

605
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: in other words, that he didn't do it, but that

606
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: he it was kind of a a way of getting

607
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: back at his mother, who seems like a very cold

608
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: woman from the quotes that she's been quoted as saying, wow, wow, wow,

609
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: Why is she told well, she walked into There have

610
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: been quotes from her where she just seems to not

611
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: be in touch. I don't mean in touch with reality

612
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: in terms of psychotic but I mean she's just very,

613
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: very cold towards her children. She went into the church

614
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: to tell her her daughter when this happened the police

615
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: told her to go and tell her daughter right away

616
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: because the son was they didn't know where he was,

617
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: and they thought maybe he would go after his sister.

618
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: And she went in and she told the daughter, uh,

619
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, your father is dead, and just in the

620
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: middle of the church where everyone could hear what was

621
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: going on, and of course the sister sobbed, started sobbing

622
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: and so on. They're just different. Wait a minute, Wait

623
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: a minute. I remember when I found out I was.

624
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: I asked the question, is Keith gone my fiancee who

625
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: was murdered. His sister said yes. I dropped the pay phone.

626
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: I my hands are full of books, school books. I

627
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: stumbled down some stairs and into an office where my

628
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: brother Matt worked in admissions at the university. I dropped

629
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: all the books and blurted out to everybody standing there.

630
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,959
Speaker 1: I don't even remember who was there, Keith is dead.

631
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: I screamed it. Everybody heard it, and I can promise

632
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: you it was not calculated or cold or anything else.

633
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 1: It's every It's all just a big blur at that point.

634
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: So but you were filled with the you had emotion.

635
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: I mean you that was different. Here I have the

636
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: quote she was she in the middle of the church,

637
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: she said to her daughter, Daddy's dead and Tommy shot him. Well,

638
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: I still don't think that that's cold. How do I

639
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: know she didn't scream it out just like I. I

640
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: mean before I would say a murder victim's wife in

641
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: the hour after your husband and many many years has

642
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: been shot dead by your son, Well, there was trying

643
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: to find your daughter and telling her I don't know

644
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: that that's I don't think that's cold. But also that

645
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with this murder. Carol Well, there

646
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: were just a number of quotes like that that kind

647
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: of painted a picture of what what the reason why

648
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: I was bringing what does that have to do with

649
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: the murder? May I ask? What I was why I

650
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: was bringing it up was because when he staged the

651
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: murder as if it were suicide, it was not only

652
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: to get him off the hook, but it was also

653
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: as a commentary against his mother, whose father had committed suicide.

654
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: That was my point. And I think that you know

655
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: whether he is malingering and is not really mentally ill.

656
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: I mean, there were a number of things that he

657
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: did before this, over the last the few years before

658
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: he shot his father that were evidence of mental problems,

659
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 1: of course, not necessarily schizophrenia or something like that. But

660
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: he was known to have taken LSD and steroids, so

661
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: it seems to have been sort of a mixture of

662
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: things that we're going How is voluntary use of drugs

663
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: a mental defense. I'm not saying in terms of mental defense,

664
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: but I'm saying the combination of whatever underlying mental illness

665
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: he might well have that the drugs made the whole

666
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: thing worse. And Joyce Lytton l a defense lawyer, we

667
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: all know that voluntary use of drugs or alcohol is

668
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: not a defense. That's certainly not a defense. But you

669
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: also have to be able to assist your counsel in

670
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: your defense. And here that's a good that's a good

671
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: point that he is unable to assist, that he can't

672
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: even communicate with his client. And we have to remember

673
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: that previously to court appointed, not prosecution appointed, not defense appointed,

674
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: but to court appointed psychiatrists both were unanimous in finding

675
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 1: that he was unfit to stand trial, that he should

676
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: be sent to a mental institution to be stabilized. And

677
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: it was because a skilled prosecutor in Manhattan, somebody as

678
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 1: good as Wendy Patrick was able to convince the judge

679
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: to have another hearing where they were able to convince

680
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: the judge that no, he is fit. But then he

681
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 1: goes and swallows a battery and his attorney is saying

682
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 1: that he cannot even communicate with his clients. Well, that's funny.

683
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick. Wendy Patrick, Southern California prosecutor and Troy Slayton

684
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: l a defense lawyer ruining me in addition to Alexis

685
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: to rest Chuck write our online Vincent Hill, private investigator

686
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: and Dr Carol Lieberman, author and forensic psychiatrist. Wendy Patrick,

687
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: That's that's odd because just the other day, Uh, Gilbert

688
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: was offered a plea that would spare him life behind

689
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: bars and the judge that are you interested in that?

690
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: He stands up and went stands up in court, looks

691
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: at the judges says, uh, now, your honor, Yeah, you know, um,

692
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: I don't see the middle. That's the tricky thing with

693
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 1: mental illness is it's very different than competency to stand trial. Obviously,

694
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: as as Troy points out, a lawyer's got to be

695
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: able to communicate with this client. From this young man's perspective, however,

696
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: you know that we could be talking about two very

697
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: different things. The sophistication and pre planning necessary to plan

698
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: that crime and alleged cover up is something that belies

699
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: a an insanity defense regarding him not knowing right from wrong.

700
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: So it's one of those things where he can't base it.

701
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: We run from justice forever by engaging in a series

702
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: of competency hearings, which is what apparently has been going on.

703
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: So when the judge orders him to see a psychiatrist

704
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: or risk losing his right to win insanity defense, what

705
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 1: they'll probably do is use the results of that defense

706
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: to argue incompetence, not insanity, thereby kicking the proceedings out

707
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: even further. But this is one of these cases where

708
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 1: we're beginning to worry that justice delayed is becoming justice denied. Well,

709
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: this is what I know. You guys can call it

710
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: whatever you want, but Dad is on the hook for

711
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: undred dollar a month apartment for this guy, this Princeton graduate,

712
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: and two hundred dollars a month for spending money. I mean,

713
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: what a rotten brat. Court goes on Nancy Grace Crime Stories,

714
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: signing off, Goodbye friend,