1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Quality dams, but Joseph's gotten more. I still have a 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: memory from when I was a child of going to 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: the grocery store with my grandmother and we did that 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: every week essentially, and I was their travel buddy. But 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: the reason this memory stands out it was the first time, 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: and I was probably about maybe four, maybe five, it 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: was the first time I'd ever seen a set of twins. 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: And it was shocking, you know, when you're that age, 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: because you see duplicates. It's you know, as the young mind, 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: I don't think can really wrap their their perception around 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: that very well, and it was shocking. I remember asking 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: my grandmother about that, and you know, she didn't have 13 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: any definitive answers, and I do remember her saying, well, 14 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: we don't have any twins in our family. Got a 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: bunch of redheads, but no twins. As I've gotten older, 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: I've made friends with twins over the years, and as 17 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, my wife's best friend she has 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: identical twins. But I want to talk about a set 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: of twins today. A set of twins that had a 20 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: trip planned to Boston back in March, and they were 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: to be at the Atlanta Airport and they didn't show up. 22 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: They didn't show up and were not found until someone 23 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: came across them ninety miles away from their home in 24 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: one of the most isolated locations in the state of Georgia, 25 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: on top of a mountain. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 26 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks Dave. We're going to talk today about 27 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: this very unusual case. 28 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: Joe, you said that right, nineteen year old twin brothers, 29 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 2: Kadir Lewis and Zir Lewis are found dead at the 30 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: summit of Bell Mountain, and the GBI says it was 31 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: a murder suicide. But you said this area is remote, right. 32 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: The area where these two young men were found was 33 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: in a location in Towns County, Georgia, and that's one 34 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: of the least populated counties in the state of Georgia. 35 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: But I lived in this area over in a town 36 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: called Dalonago. Some of you guys might be familiar with it. 37 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: I taught college up there for years and years. A 38 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: lot of Hallmark movies are made up there. And to 39 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: get to Bell Mountain in Towns County, Georgia, it gives 40 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: quite the reward when you get there because it's got 41 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: a three hundred and sixty degree view of the Appalachian Mountains. 42 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: And one of the most striking things is that you 43 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: look down from the precipice of this mountain at almost 44 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: thirty three hundred feet down onto Lake Hyawassee, which actually, 45 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: to give you some idea geographically where it is. Part 46 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: of it is in North Georgia. The other part of 47 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: it is in North Carolina, so that gives you not 48 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: you can see over into North Carolina from there pretty easily, 49 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: and it is just you stand up there and you 50 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those moments where you behold 51 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: God's creation. It's absolutely gorgeous. But the fact that these 52 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: two young men were found up there is amazing and 53 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: obviously quite tragic. 54 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: You know, you started off by talking about twins, and 55 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: I have to tell you that I have twin brothers. 56 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: My little brothers are twins identical, and yeah, they have 57 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: their own language. The first time I ever got freaked 58 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: out was my parents. I'm six years older than my 59 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: twin brothers, and my parents had gone out and I 60 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: was there with them. I'm probably they were probably five, Okay, 61 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: so I'm eleven twelve years old, and it was they 62 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: should have been to sleep, right, and I hear him talking. 63 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: I can't make out what they're saying, but I can 64 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: hear them, and I'm responsible. I'm going to be one 65 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: in trouble if they're awake when mom and Dad get home. 66 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: So I go up there to chew them out, and 67 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: I try to hear what they're saying, right, can't understand it. 68 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 2: It's gibberish, And so I creep up and I open 69 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: the door and one of them is sitting that bet 70 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,280 Speaker 2: you know, little the single bed, Yeah, sitting right there 71 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: in the same but anyway, one is sitting up in 72 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: the bed and he's just gibberish, gibberish, gibbish, and then 73 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 2: he slits back down on his pillow, and the other 74 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: one pops up and he starts talking gibberish, and then 75 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 2: he falls back down. The other one gets it. This 76 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: went on for minutes to the point where I'm like, 77 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: do I wake them up? I mean, I always heard 78 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: you don't wake up people that are talking in their sleep, 79 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: but this is freaking me out, man. So I actually 80 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: I did what any eleven twelve year old will do. 81 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: I found a ball and threw it at them. That way, 82 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: I wasn't waking them up. The ball was. But I 83 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: thought they were best buddy even at an early age. 84 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 2: I was thinking like a lawyer at any rate. But 85 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 2: twins running my family, the twins all over the place, actually, 86 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: But to go past this, because I've seen twins in 87 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: action and how they do interact with one another. My 88 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: favorite nieces are twins, and they have a different way 89 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: of looking at life, of looking at the relationships, and 90 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: it's deeper. Their kinship is just deeper. And anyway, when 91 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 2: I saw this story and the first word from the GBI, 92 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 2: they suspected murder suicide. And I've got a question for 93 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:51,919 Speaker 2: you about that. But I want to fill the story 94 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: in first. Okay, it doesn't start at Bell Mountain, which, 95 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: by the way, you can park at the bottom of 96 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 2: Bell Mountain and in the parking lot there and you 97 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: can walk to the summit. Takes about ten minutes. Is 98 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: a half mile. Now, granted, it's steep and you are 99 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: going to be breathing heavy if you're fatten out of shape, 100 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 2: but it's it's not a tremendous walk through the woods. 101 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 2: It's paved, Okay, it's made. It's made to get to 102 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: God's creation. And see it without dying on your way. 103 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 104 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, Now this started off. You mentioned a plane flight 105 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: to Boston, and the guys called. They had a seven 106 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 2: am flight to head out of Hartsfield in Atlanta. Your 107 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: favorite place, Joe, and a place where I missed a 108 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: flight recently, and for the same reason. 109 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: Hang on, let me get it in a plug for 110 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: Heartsville real quick. As a matter of fact, they all saying, 111 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: is they all say, is that if you if you're 112 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: going to Hell, you literally have to change planes at 113 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: Hartsfield Atlanta Airport. So yeah, it's it's that kind of place. 114 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: I've been in every airport, every Asia, airport, in America, 115 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: and by far, how can I be kind, it's the 116 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: most challenging there, I put it to you that way. 117 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: There we go. 118 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: Well, the twins had a seven am flight to go 119 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: to Boston to visit with friends. They had their tickets, 120 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: they called an uber. Now they live in Lawrenceville, Georgia, 121 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: and they were going to Hartsfield, which means they should 122 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: have been up and on their way by four am 123 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: to catch a seven am flight. They didn't make it 124 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: in time for their flight. Now here's the catch. We 125 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: don't know what happened after that, right, maybe not as 126 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: luck would have it. We know that the guys missed 127 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: their flight, but now we know that that Friday they 128 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: ended up back in Lawrenceville because at ten thirty Friday night, 129 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: they were seen on surveillance video at a gas station 130 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: nine minutes from their home, a place where they go 131 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: and they grab snacks and drink water. 132 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: By the way. 133 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: It's interesting to know that both of these guys are 134 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,559 Speaker 2: known as cheap skates. They do not like to waste 135 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: money on gas, They don't like to waste money on anything. 136 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: And so these twins, these nineteen year old twins, are 137 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: at this gas station convenience store at ten thirty and 138 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: they're drinking water because it's free, and eating snacks. There 139 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: is no sign of distress whatsoever. They're dressed like they 140 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: normally dress, and they're just hanging out. Two twin brothers 141 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: nineteen years old. Boom. Now, that was at ten thirty 142 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: that night. Twelve hours later, at eleven am, their bodies 143 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 2: are found at the summit of Bell Mountain, ninety miles 144 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 2: away from Lawrenceville, Georgia. Neither one of these twins is 145 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: a hiker, neither one has been to Bell Mountain, and 146 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: it's not a place you would drive at night to 147 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: get to the roads there, and I look these up. 148 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 2: They're not easy to find during the daytime. And this 149 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 2: is a place where you need to be familiar with 150 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: where you're going and have a real reason and purpose 151 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: for being there. Since they planned on being in Boston 152 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: with friends at the time they were found on Bell Mountain, 153 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: that's where the confusion comes in for their family. So 154 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,719 Speaker 2: we do know that after missing their plane flight, they 155 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: did make it back to Lawrenceville. They were unfamiliar territory. 156 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: They were at the gas station at ten thirty that night. 157 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 2: What happened between the time they left the gas at 158 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 2: and twelve and a half hours later when nine to 159 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: one one got called with two bodies at the summit 160 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 2: of Bell Mountain? And how Joe can they come up 161 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: with a murder suicide? 162 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: So and you know right now still to this point. 163 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: Now keep in mind this was back in March when 164 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: this occurred, and this story did not hit my desk 165 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: at all. It did not come across my feet. You 166 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: have a much more broad spectrum view of things than 167 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: I do. Because of all the stories you're chasing all 168 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: the time. But for me personally, I did not. I 169 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: did not see it to my discredit, because this is 170 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: something that I found very interesting in the sense that well, 171 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: first off, just the nature of it that you've got 172 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: two city kids that live in Lawrenceville. And if folks 173 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: don't know where Lawrenceville is, it's on the northeastern side 174 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: of Atlanta. 175 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 2: And first actually in Lawrenceville. 176 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: Oh okay, well you know this. It's right off of 177 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: E eighty five, which goes northeast. You can get to Greenville, 178 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: South Carolina and get to be on If any of. 179 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: You watch the TV show on Netflix, Stranger Things, they 180 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: film all the mall scenes that you see in that 181 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: movie or that TV show because it's based in the eighties, 182 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: so mall is a center part of that thing. They 183 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: filmed the mall and most of the indoor scenes in Lawrenceville. 184 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: In Lawrenceville at Gwennap Place mall, well, it used to 185 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: be Glenned Place Mall. Just up I eighty five. 186 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got one more for you. Lakely is right 187 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: by there, and your favorite show of all time. I'll 188 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: go and tell everybody Ozark, which is supposed to be 189 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: taking place in Arkansas, Missouri, that area is actually filmed 190 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: there in Georgia on Lake Lanier. This area there, it's 191 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: not a place where let's see, how can I say 192 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: you have to have a bit of money in certain 193 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 1: areas up there, because it is one of the fastest 194 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: growing For a long time, it was the fastest growing 195 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: zip code in America. It's densely, densely populated, and this 196 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: is the environment that these kids lived in. And like 197 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: you said, I was watching an interview with the family, 198 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: and the family pointedly says, we've never even heard of 199 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: Towns County, much less Bell Mountain, and we've never been there. 200 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: The twins have never been there. And oh, by the way, 201 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: there's no indication that they were suicide on any level whatsoever. 202 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: So they've had more questions than answers. But as we 203 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: all know, particularly when it comes to the cases we 204 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: cover on body bags, that's kind of the norm, is it, So, Dave, 205 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: my understanding is is that this park, the hours are 206 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: essentially from eight am until dusk, and of course dusk 207 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: is going to be variable, but you know, March eighth 208 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: of this year, that's still well within the parameters of wintertime. 209 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you say, yeah, it's going dark much earlier 210 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: than later, you know, like the time of year that 211 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: we're in right now, in the spring, late spring, and 212 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: so it's a different ball of wax. So the question 213 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: is whoever locked that gate, because I think the gate 214 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: was in fact locked and didn't see the car parked 215 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: in there. Did they drive in there and inspect the area? 216 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: And how far is the gate from the parking lot? 217 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about how far a walk it is, 218 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: and this is more like a leisurely walked than it 219 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: is a hike, you know, and it's not a big area. 220 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: When the family there was a family, I think it's 221 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: the Bell family donated this land. This whole thing's only 222 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: eighteen acres and it's like the top of the mountain 223 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: and they donated this thing, and the state of Georgia 224 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: set up a state park there, I think back in 225 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. It's not an old one and there are 226 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: a lot of old ones up there, you know. You 227 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: think about that and did anybody roll around through there? 228 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: And the police have also said, and here's one major 229 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: problem with this, there's no video there. There's no CCTV, 230 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: so you can't account for somebody coming and going in there. 231 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: You're not going to be able to clip that out. 232 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: You know, we've got video. I think you had mentioned 233 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: we've got video of them back in Gwinette County, Lawrenceville 234 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: have I before, Yeah, having been at the store. So 235 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: how does that balance out in the mind? And I 236 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: guess one of the big questions is how are they found? 237 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: Well, Okay, look, Joe, here's the part that I think. 238 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: I don't know how the GBI could come up with 239 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: an answer to how they were found and say it 240 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: was a murder suicide to family members. I don't know 241 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 2: how they can. I'm not challenging that they're the professionals, 242 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: not me. I just would think you'd have to have 243 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: more results in that, like the autopsy report should include 244 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: all everything. You know, when before you come up and 245 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: tell a family member that they're twins, nineteen year old 246 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: twins have committed murder suicide before you tell them that, 247 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 2: you ought to have every other answer solved. I know 248 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 2: they want answers, but the family is just no, they're 249 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: not going to believe that. Families don't believe it when 250 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: you tell them that they found their child with a 251 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 2: bullet in the head, that they committed suicide. People don't 252 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: want to believe that about people they love. We just 253 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: don't want to believe that. So they told them it 254 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: was a murder of suicide. But Joe, there's something even 255 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: worse than anything on this that I've seen so far. 256 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: And I actually saw this in the New York Post 257 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: and I thought, oh, they've missed on They run headlines 258 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: all the time that are wrong. But there is a 259 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: story that a volunteer fireman from Towns County, And by 260 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: the way, Towns County Sheriff's Department invited in the GBI 261 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: from the very beginning, the minute this case came in, 262 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: they called him in and said, we don't have and 263 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: you mentioned the size of the county and number of 264 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: the population. They said, we don't have. We do not 265 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: have what's needed to do this case justice. So they 266 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: called in the GBI to be the investigation of record. 267 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 2: So one of the people on scene was a volunteer firefighter, 268 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: a volunteer first responder for Towns County. And this person, 269 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: Joe allegedly, well no not allegedly, took pictures of these 270 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: two young men, nineteen year old twins, took pictures of 271 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 2: their dead bodies, Kadir and Nazir Lewis. He took pictures 272 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: and then shared them Joe, he shared them and then 273 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 2: it wasn't just sharing them with his boss to say hey, 274 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: I just wanted you to have this or you would 275 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: know this is going on social media. You know how 276 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 2: they found out kids at the school. 277 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: Kids at the high school. Yeah, and that's what kind 278 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: of flipped the switch relative to the sheriff's office to 279 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: look into this. Now, this volunteer firefighter was charged in 280 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: this case, yeah, with I don't know if it was 281 00:16:59,120 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: obstruction or. 282 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 2: Or it was in charge obstruction. 283 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so that's a very broad spectrum charge that 284 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: you can kind of hang on somebody. But the problem 285 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: is is that now you know when a volunteer firefighter, 286 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: and God bless them, because it's a hard job that 287 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: no one they're volunteers, but they're firefighters. They have to 288 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: go through the academy and a lot of people enjoy 289 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: being volunteer firefighters. They've got a lot of buddies over 290 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: the years that have done that. When they roll out, 291 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: they are rolling out as as first responders, so they're 292 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: probably trained in basic life saving. So when a call 293 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: comes up, they're going to say you know we've got 294 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: two individuals down. They're not going to say that over 295 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: the air that we've got a murdered suicide, because that 296 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: hasn't been concluded yet. All they know is that we've 297 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: got two people that have been found in this isolated 298 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: area on top of this mountain. So when this individual 299 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: would have rolled out, and there were probably maybe a 300 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: couple of the other ones. Sometimes they'll show up in 301 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: their private vehicles. If you ever see, like in your 302 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: rural areas, you'll see a guy in a pickup truck 303 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: and he's got a red light flashing on a private vehicle. 304 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: Red lights indicate fire, blue lights indicate law enforcement. They 305 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: will roll up many times. They might live near that area, 306 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: and they carry these very powerful radios that even in 307 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: those isolated areas, they can pick up transmissions with he 308 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: probably showed up, And when he showed up, your first 309 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 1: inclination is to take photos of the dead and disseminate them. 310 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: That's what we're doing because that's the way this worked out. 311 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: And the problem is is that this individual has injected 312 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: themselves into the investigative bubble at this point in time. 313 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,719 Speaker 2: Hey, so this is right away, is he filming his 314 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 2: own did he set this up? How did he get 315 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 2: there so fast? Was he the guy that committed the murder? 316 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 2: And now he's back there pretending that he was. You know, 317 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 2: is this something you've ever heard of before? Joe had 318 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: somebody taking photos. 319 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: It actually happened in Atlanta, and it was to my 320 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: great shame. I had nothing to do with it, but 321 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: it was my case. But we actually had this was 322 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: not a volunteer. This was an Atlanta firefighter. We had 323 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: a guy that was involved in a foot chase with 324 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: the police on what's called the Grady Curve, which is 325 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: an elevated portion of seventy five to eighty five that 326 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: is conjoined in downtown Atlanta. He hops out of his car, 327 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: runs through oncoming traffic, and I get We postulated that 328 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: he jumped over the wall, thinking that it was only 329 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: like a I don't know, a like a ten foot 330 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: drop as a thirty foot drop, and he landed on 331 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: a wrought iron fence, and a spike of the fence 332 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: went through his foremen magnum, which is the large opening 333 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: in the base of your skull. It ripped his body 334 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,719 Speaker 1: off of or ripped his head off of his shoulders, 335 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: and the head is impaled on this thing and the 336 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: firefighter that was out there. This is in the early 337 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 1: days of digital cameras began snapping photos. And I've actually 338 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: got the photos that this individual took. They were sent 339 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: to me by an investigator that was homicide investigator. He says, 340 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: this is what happens when firefighters take photos. And I said, 341 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: how did you get these? Guess what he told me? 342 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: He said, these came off of a German website, a 343 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: German administrative website back during the days when there was 344 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: like all of these websites like rotten dot com that 345 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: don't exist anymore, that show these horrible things. And so 346 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: to the point of the twins, to the point of 347 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: the Twins, that data you think about that was in 348 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: the early early mid two thousands probably when that happened. 349 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: How much further reaching now is the internet social media 350 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: than it was back then. I mean, we didn't even 351 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: have things or think about things like Instagram and even 352 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: Twitter or x or whatever they call it now. And 353 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: you know, there was Facebook, but it didn't it wasn't 354 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: far and wild now everywhere. So these two kids, and 355 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: they are somebody's kids with a mama that loves them 356 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: very much, in a family that loves them very much. 357 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: Now in this state of death, in an isolated area, 358 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: away from those that they love. They're dead, have been 359 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: out there for a while. This guy takes photographs and 360 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: disseminates them all over the place. So, yeah, if if 361 00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: I were an investigator, I don't know necessarily that he 362 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: had anything to do with it. But if you're an investigator, 363 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: you have to go question this person he's added onto 364 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: the list at this point in time, because if they're 365 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: suspecting that this is something other than a quote unquote 366 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: murder suicide, then you would run down the list because Dave, 367 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: it's not like you're in a densely populated area up 368 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: there where you're going to run across people that would 369 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: do harm to you. Okay, So there's very few people, 370 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: first off, that know that this place exists, including the 371 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: twins according to their family, and this is in isolation. 372 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: How do you get these two kids to get up here? 373 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: And they both got gunshot wounds. Family says they've never 374 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: been there before. And you're talking about driving through an 375 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: area that is it's beautiful, but it's scary. They've got 376 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: hairpin turns that run all through these areas, and there's 377 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: only two what would be considered I don't even want 378 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: to call him as thoroughfairs, but there's two state highways 379 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: that kind of run through this area. Everything else is 380 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: as my grandmother you say, pig trails. You have to 381 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: know where you're going. Sometimes your GPS doesn't even work 382 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: up there. So you got a lot going on here. 383 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: As far as how they arrived, they're inside a locked area, 384 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: their vehicles there. Oh and let me tell you one 385 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: other thing. When the police got into the vehicle, their 386 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: wallets are in there, and those plane tickets for that 387 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: flight to Boston is still there and has never been used. 388 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: A type of case that I was always fearful of 389 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: screwing up. Traditionally from me, at least was going to 390 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: be murder suicides. And I'll tell you why, because if 391 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: it's a murder suicide, there's violence involved. Generally there has 392 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: to be homicidal violence. And I was always terrified that 393 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: I was going to arrive at an incorrect conclusion and 394 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: that I would miss something. Because if you ever notice, 395 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: my friends, that when an individual, unless they're a high 396 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: profile subject, takes their life, never makes it into the 397 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: news cycle, never does as far as suicides are gone, 398 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: and do yourself a favorite. Pay attention to what I'm 399 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: saying right now. You will hear in the news today. 400 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: You know, we had a murder suicide and a guy 401 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: went in and killed his whole family and then killed himself. 402 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: How many other news cycles does it make it through? 403 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: It doesn't, It doesn't, maybe maybe two. There might be 404 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: a follow up article because they'll they'll catch your eye 405 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: with the horrific nature of slaughtering an entire family. The 406 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: individual kills himself and as far as the news media 407 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: is concerned, the news business, there's no other business to 408 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: be had here. 409 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 2: There's no other story. 410 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: Joe, Yeah, there is no The well has run dry. 411 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 2: It's solved. But my question goes back to, very quickly 412 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: after the discovery of the bodies, we have the GBI 413 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 2: allegedly telling the family it's a murder suicide, or so 414 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 2: they believe that happened. Very early on, when you start 415 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: dealing with gunfire related homicide and suicide, what are you 416 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: looking for and what does it tell you? How could 417 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: they look at two dead bodies on the ground and 418 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 2: say it was a murder suicide if there's no witness 419 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 2: in a video. 420 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is how it would work out. From me, 421 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: This is what I think that they're thinking. At least, 422 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: this is what I think they're thinking. Don't you love 423 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: that we haven't heard anything about a note, Not that 424 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: they would necessarily tell us, because there have been cases 425 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: out there where a note was left behind and we 426 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: don't find out about it until well after the fact. 427 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: But we haven't heard about that. Okay, we have. But conversely, 428 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: there has been according to the family, there's been no 429 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: suicidal ideation on either of these kids. And I would 430 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: imagine if there's no suicidal ideation, there's no what psychiatristfer 431 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: to as suicidal vocalization where they're saying, I want to 432 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: end my life, like they're entering into a pack to 433 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: end their lives together. All right, So how did they 434 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: arrive at this conclusion? Well, these we do know because 435 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: I think that let me check my notes here. I 436 00:26:51,880 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: think probably probably back in March seventeenth. March eighteenth, there 437 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: was a release from the state Medical Examiner that ruled 438 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: that rule these cases as gunshot wounds to the head, 439 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: all right, So my thought is they would probably if 440 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: they're calling some murder suicide, they would have had to 441 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: have recovered a weapon at the scene. That's the first 442 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: bit of information. So is the weapon lying immediately adjacent 443 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: to one of the twins, like to their hand? Okay, 444 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: is it in proximity of the body, because people, you 445 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to have a weapon in your hand 446 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: following suicide and it be a suicide because the body 447 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: does odd things afterwards, and it can come down to 448 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: how you fall, how you collapse, Bodies can spasm, It 449 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: depends on a lot of things. I've had. I've had 450 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: weapons that I've found that are some distance away from 451 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: the body, but yet still in that same space, and 452 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: it was ruled suicide, and I felt very comfortable with that. 453 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 1: So I'm thinking that they probably found a weapon. Now 454 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: what type of weapon other than it is probably a firearm, 455 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: because they're calling these gunshot wounds. I have no idea 456 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: because they haven't released that information. Secondly, you're going to 457 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: be looking at the pathology on both of their bodies. Well, 458 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: what do you mean by that, Morgan? Well, I'll tell 459 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: you what I mean by it. What I mean by 460 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: that is the fact that they will have gunshot wounds. 461 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: And if it is a let's say that this is 462 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: Let's take murder first. If this is a murder, a 463 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: word which I hate because it's a lawyer's word, I 464 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: prefer the word homicide. If this is a homicide, then 465 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: that means death at the hand of another. That's how 466 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: we define homicide in the medical legal world. You will 467 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: have a relationship between the end of the muzzle and 468 00:28:53,800 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: the bullet defect in the head. Now what that means 469 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: is what was your what was your range of fire? 470 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: What do you think the angle of fire was? So 471 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: was one of these individuals kneeling adjacent to the other 472 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: one and the other one walked up and popped them 473 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: in the head? Single gsw Is it a through and through? 474 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: Did they press into the wound or into the scalp 475 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: for instance, where you have have what would be like 476 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: a tight seal and pull the trigger or were they 477 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,959 Speaker 1: standing away? Well, if they're standing backwards of the body, 478 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: and the relationship from the end of the muzzle to 479 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: that point where the projectile enters the body, you're going 480 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: to have soot deposition if it's if it's a close range, 481 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: it can be close to intermediate. So if it's close range, 482 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: you're going to have soot position around there you'll have 483 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: bits of a flex of unburned gunpowder. And depended upon 484 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: how that distribution of that evidence is spread out away 485 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: from the actual hole in the body gives you an 486 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: idea of range. Just think about spraying of water hose. 487 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: The further the further away you get from the nozzle itself, 488 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: it begins to expand outward, Okay, and you know it 489 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: forms like a big circle. So the further away you 490 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: are down range, the broader the circle gets until it 491 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: just kind of falls away. So they're looking at this 492 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: from that perspective. That's from the homicide perspective. Now, with 493 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: the suicide perspective, you can have self inflicted wounds, and 494 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: I've had them all over bodies. I've had people that 495 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: have taken weapons and flipped them upside down and placed 496 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: them at the back of their head to make it 497 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: look like they were executed. I've actually had that happen. 498 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: I've had individuals, multitude of individuals that have placed weapons 499 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: adjacent adjacent to their temple and pull the trigger intra 500 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: oral gunshot wounds into the mouth. I've had people fire 501 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: weapons beneath their chin. I've had people fire weapons into 502 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: their chest. I've had one that fired a weapon into 503 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: their stomach, bad choice because they languish for some time. 504 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: So you can have all of these different types of 505 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: attitudes relative to placement of the weapon, but there's something 506 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: that is pointing them there. And most of the time 507 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: day with suicides, the firing or discharging of a weapon, 508 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: the suicide is most of the time going to be 509 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: close contact or maybe even like a press contact. Press 510 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: contact means that the end of the muzzle is literally 511 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: just tight, it almost forms a seal in the skin, 512 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: and nothing expands outside of the muzzle. Really, it's all 513 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: blown into the body. That's a classic self inflicted gunshot wound. 514 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: Can you have those in homicides most of the time, 515 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: not unless the individual is passed out asleep or you 516 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: have them restrained in some way to get a contact 517 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: gunshot wound like that, because most people, your natural reaction 518 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: is that if you're aware that a weapon is being 519 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: placed to your head, you're going to move away. You know, 520 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: you're going to try to parry that move and move away. 521 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: So with suicides, that's one of the things that we 522 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: look for, and I think that that's probably how they're 523 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: reaching this conclusion. At least on the surface, we don't 524 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: have really anything else to go on in this case. 525 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: And this is still you know, this is back in March. 526 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: We're laying this down right now in the midst of 527 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: May Dave, and it's my understanding this case is still open, correct, 528 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: But yet they ruled it as a murder suicide. 529 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 2: Well, it didn't necessarily rule it a murder suicide. They 530 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: told the family that that's what they believed it was, 531 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: and the family was very public saying they didn't do it, 532 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 2: they wouldn't do that, and they're still saying that, and 533 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: I understand it, I don't. 534 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: You know. 535 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: It's tough to lose a family member and to lose 536 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 2: somebody in and they have trouble understanding it because it 537 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: was twins, because they were so close to have this happen, 538 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: one of them had to harm the other one first, 539 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 2: and they're just having trouble with that. Those that knew 540 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 2: the twins, those that knew these two men, I know, 541 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 2: we've often referred to them as boys because there so 542 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 2: many times when we have young people now that are 543 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 2: in their teens, especially when they're twins and brothers, we 544 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: refer to them as the boys. It's just how we 545 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: refer to young people. And I think the shock is 546 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: that I'm thinking about the family. I am thinking about them. 547 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the horror what they must have felt 548 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 2: being told that, you know, they didn't know what happened. 549 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 2: They just knew that They've got two nineteen year olds 550 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 2: who had never been as far as they knew to 551 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: all Mountain Georgia. That they weren't hikers, they weren't people 552 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: who drove way out of their way because they were 553 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: cheaps gigs. They didn't want to put gas in their car. 554 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 2: So you're talking about driving ninety miles or you know, 555 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: from their house or ninety minutes from their house, I mean, 556 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 2: or ninety miles or ninety minutes. 557 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: Ninety miles, yeah, miles, And it's I mean, it's a 558 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: poke to get up there. And like I said, if 559 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: I wish that everybody that is listening to this could 560 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 1: appreciate the distance that we're talking about, and ninety miles 561 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: from many people is like, that's not much of a distance. Well, 562 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: this is not driving down I five in California. Okay, 563 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: this is not like a straight shot. You have to 564 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: know where you're going. This place is so out of 565 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: the way. They have to pump sunlight in there because 566 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: it is isolated. It's on top of a mountain. It's 567 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: not like someplace you just kind of stumble on. 568 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: And that's that's why the family has so much trouble 569 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: with it, Joe. They didn't like to burn their gas 570 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 2: as it is. Do you really think they're going to drive? 571 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it was a family member that I heard. 572 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: He actually stated. He actually stated in the interview that 573 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: they don't like to drive. And I thought he was 574 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: going to say, because you know, Atlanta traffic is notorious. 575 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: I thought he was going to say, they're fearful of 576 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: getting out on the road. No, no, no, no, no, that's 577 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: not We said they hate to spend money on gas. 578 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: You talk about two nineteen year olds that are that thrifty. 579 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: That's the only way. I don't want to use the 580 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: word cheap, but they're thrifty. And you said that they're 581 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: drinking water. They're not, you know, knocking back SODA's are energetting. 582 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 2: Drink, getting a snack and drinking water at the local 583 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 2: store at ten thirty at night. 584 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, I think that the dynamic Again, 585 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: you bring this up, Dave, and you say you said 586 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: it so well, and thanks for sharing that about your family. 587 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: The language that twins have, and it is a very 588 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: specific language. I mean, they have a way of communicating 589 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,919 Speaker 1: with one another. How in the world could two young 590 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: men so bright and so full of life wind up dead, 591 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: so far away from the home that they had with 592 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: their family, with those that loved them, in such a 593 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: far isolated place. Listen, if you are anyone you know 594 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: is having trouble in their life and they're thinking about 595 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: ending their own life, all you got to do. It's 596 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: called three numbers. Eight eight nine eight eight. You're not alone. 597 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: Help is available. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 598 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: body Backs.