WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - April 26th, 2024 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:07.520 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:12.760 This is Bloomberg business Week inside from the reporters and 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.520 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.760 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:25.720 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.840 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:32.680 It was a big week for the megacap tech names. 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:35.320 You know, some of those magnificent seven stocks, four of 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.680 which reported earnings. Tesla, Meta, Microsoft, and Alphabet all reporting, 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.880 and then next week it will be Amazon's turn, among 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:45.960 a few others. On that, we talked to the author 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.839 of The Everything War about the company's quest to own 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.040 the world and remake corporate power. 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.120 In other earnings news, shares of Mattel rallied following its 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.800 quarterly update. I got a couple words for you, Hot wheels, Yes, 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:00.440 Mattel CEO E Noon Cries is back with us. 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.720 Barbie Movie Take two. Plus a little more serious front 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:08.280 escalating protests at college campuses over the Israel Hamas conflict. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.000 We get a global view from Francisco Veloso. He's the 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:12.640 dean of INCIAD Business school. 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:14.959 He weighs in two on the impact of AI on 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.560 today's MBA and later on in the next hour, rose 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:22.479 and regenerative farming as one can only do in Provence, 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.320 and what it's like to spend more than twenty five 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.840 years as a CIA officer, working as an undercover spy 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.160 all over the world and becoming a master of disguise. 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:33.680 It's all in the new book. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:35.800 In true face, we just say she was a kiss. 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:36.520 She was awesome. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.080 All right, All of that to come. We begin with earnings. Yes, 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:41.959 we are in the thick of it, having just wrapped 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.640 up the busiest of weeks in the reporting quarter. The 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.840 iconic toy company Mattel out with results this past week, 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.920 narrowing its loss in the first quarter and beating analyst 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.960 projections thanks to fast sales of its Hot Wheels cars 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:55.560 and also lower costs. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.120 Mattel's chairman and CEO, Enon Cries, stopping by to talk 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:01.120 about the business and the outlook. 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:03.600 We are off to a good start of the year 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.840 with significant growth, margin expansion, and very strong improvement and 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:12.280 free cash flow. With positive consumer demand and improving trends, 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:15.519 we are executing on our one billion dollar share repurchase 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.280 program and just bought one hundred million dollars of shares 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.560 in the quarter, and looking ahead for the rest of 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.480 the year, we expect to benefit from innovation across our 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:29.160 toy portfolio, meaningful progress on our entertainment strategy, and greater 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:33.640 efficiencies and cost savings. When it comes to Hot Wheels, 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:38.480 it's such a great brand, it's an incredible canvas of opportunities. 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:42.360 It was up in sales. This is really about growing 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.720 the adult space through expansion of the Collector series both 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:51.280 at mass retail and MATEL creations. It's about broadening our 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:56.120 distribution globally, accelerating growth in RC and skate and of 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.760 course we have an incredible animated series on Netflix which 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.760 has been a top ten program in six nine countries, 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.680 and all of that what we continue to drive and 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.280 amplify our core Diecast line. 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:11.240 So really bringing. 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:15.600 Together the Mattel Playbook about brand purpose, consumer centric innovation, 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.760 cultural relevance, and franchise mindset. 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.680 In terms of taking product and creating the success like 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.040 you did with the Barbie movie, but how do you 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.720 take the toys put it in a series you know 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.880 what I mean, and that it translates into sales. How 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.400 do you guys track it, how do you really see 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:32.399 that impact? 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.440 This really goes back to how we now see the 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.200 role that we play and how we think of people 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.440 who buy our product not just as consumers, but as 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.880 fans that have an emotional relationship with our brands, and 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:51.360 what we do. We take successful toy franchises, We take 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.560 those brands and transcend them to other categories, other domains, 0:03:56.000 --> 0:04:01.559 other verticals in entertainment, think film, television, consumer product and merchandise, 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:07.640 location based entertainment and theme parks, digital experiences, music, all 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.480 verticals that are driven by big brands, big franchise that 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.200 have are built in fan base, and so we bring 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:17.560 those brands and we then extend them to these domains. 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.280 We have experts within Mattel that do that. The Barbie 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.560 movie is a showcase for the potential of what we're 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.400 looking to do. But it's important to say it's not 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.080 just about movies and not just about Barbie. It's about 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:37.040 our portfolio and the incredible opportunities we have across multiple 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.680 categories who participate as the owner of one of the 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:45.000 strongest portfolios in the world in children in family entertainment. 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.719 Well on that, on Barbie and on the movie were 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.360 there was it a demand surprise in the quarter that 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.960 Barbie didn't perform as well less than a year after 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.080 the movie release. Was that bump seemed kind of limited 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.680 in just the months following the the release at least 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:01.880 a quartered in the most recent quarter. 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.760 Well, Barbie is such an incredible brand. The success of 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.720 the movie is here to stay for a long period 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.719 to come. It's not just about the quarter or about 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.760 the year. It really is about years to come that 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.320 will benefit from the halo of the movie and how 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:21.480 the brand has extended its audience and fan base and 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:25.480 really playing at a very high level across the world. 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:30.039 Barbie is the number one doll property globally and continue 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:35.520 to gain share in spite of comfortable sales to last year. 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:40.920 This year, we're celebrating Barbie's sixty fifth anniversary. The multiple activations, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:45.320 including three new segments that we are introducing. We expect 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.479 more shelf space in the second half of the year. 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:52.480 There's an expansion into the adult collector line and continue 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:56.440 to engage more kid audiences with content on Netflix. There's 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.760 a new series and a new animated movie on Netflix. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.360 There's also a new video game, a new mobile game, 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.880 that Take two will publish later this year, So there's 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.480 a lot more that is happening around Barbie, and the 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.920 success of the movie and the brand as a whole 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:13.440 will be here for years to come. 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:15.360 Well, no doubt about it. Like you think about these 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.080 brands and how iconic and how long they have been around, 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.560 I guess you know the question is right, like when 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.520 it's out there culturally in our universe, great thing, Right, 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.760 there's a lot of buzz people are always curious about. 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:31.039 So how does that translate in a big way into 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:35.400 selling more you know, Barbie's and other Mattel toys and 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.360 hot wheels? Do you guys see it? I mean, does 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.200 all of these investments and time and energy really make 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.640 a difference, you know, financially. 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:48.840 Absolutely, the opportunity is significant. And you know, Barbie is 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.919 so much more than adult Barbie is a pop culture 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:57.080 icon and what you saw in the movie is a 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:01.160 showcase for how far Barbie can travel. Our business model 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.919 is to continue to grow our IP driven toy business 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:09.120 and at the same time expand our entertainment offering. So 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.320 this is very symbiotic. We still see significant upset potential 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.440 in our toy business and the opportunity is to now 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:20.120 participate in other verticals that we expect will be a 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:24.280 creative to our business model. Separately from toys, this is 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.520 not about selling toys. This is about creating value, capturing 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.720 value in other categories. But of course success in the 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:36.840 movie reflects back in toys and in location based entertainment 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:43.640 and mobile games. It goes across multiple directions, and of 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.480 course a strong toy is a great foundation to extend 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.360 into entertainment verticals. And this is really the business model 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.120 where we look to capture value both on the toy 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.400 side of the business as well as in entertainment verticals. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.760 You know, something we've talked about before, and I'm always 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.400 curious about the people who are knocking on your door 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.320 following the success of the Barbie movie and who are saying, wait, 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.400 you know there's something we can do here, whether it 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.520 is you know, you guys are already on Netflix. But 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.560 I'm just curious from the content creation world, what the 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.160 world has been like for you guys in terms of 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:20.320 conversations and new opportunities. How that volume can you quantify 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:21.280 how it's amped up? 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.640 Well, we absolutely saw an increase and a lot of 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:30.080 excitement around the potential of our IP portfolio and the 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:34.480 branch that we own, and we have fifteen movies right 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.920 now in development that we've announced already with some of 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.520 the most prolific creators in the world, and there are 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.760 more projects that we're working on that we haven't announced yet. 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:49.080 Mattel Television is driving with thirteen shows and specials that 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:54.079 will be broadcaster this year, and it's a great combination 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:59.800 of animated projects, live action movies, game shows and the like. 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.160 So there are a lot of the excitement around Mattel 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.560 Television that is now showing content in more than one 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.480 hundred and nineteen countries in more than thirty languages. And likewise, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:15.520 we also extending our business into digital gaming, where the 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.640 goal is to extend the physical play to the virtual 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:23.160 world by creating digital games and experiences that drive sustained 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:28.280 engagement for fans of all ages. Based on our intellectual properties. 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.720 Barbi two or does can Get a Movie? Can You Share? 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.200 Well? Without getting into the specific of the next Barbie 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.840 movie or the potential of it, the opportunity for Mattel 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:44.080 is to develop film franchises, and we've always said that 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:48.120 this is our goal to develop brands that can have 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:52.080 multiple touch points and engagements with fans. We look to 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:59.840 continue to broaden our film offering and create exciting and cultural, societal, 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.280 uh purpose driven movies that will excite in the light 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.440 fans of all ages around the world. 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.760 I hope that's a yes, then, Carol, you're like the 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:12.920 biggest Barbie movie fan. I've ever met a group of. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.520 My older siblings. You know, I inherited their dolls. I 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:18.360 have to say I love the movie. My daughter I 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.560 went with and we loved it. We laughed, we cried. 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:22.960 I've got a Barbie T shirt. I'm just gonna tell you, 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:23.440 I'm all in. 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.120 I think I think in the future, I think you 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.160 have to recuse yourself from this interview and interviewing back 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:34.080 to the quarter. You know, the first quarter for toy 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.360 manufacturers can be a challenging one. It comes just after 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.520 Christmas and a lot of you know, the fourth quarter 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.160 buying that happens and during the holiday season. But there 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.000 was easter earlier this year then typically and at the 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.040 end of March, and I'm wondering what you saw when 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:49.280 it came to easter sales. 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.920 We do, we do believe that an earlier easter benefited 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.679 the first quarter UH and we did say that it 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:01.160 hasn't changed our expectation for the industry to decline in 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.240 twenty twenty four, although at a lesser rare than twenty 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.400 twenty three. And we believe that the trends will further 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:09.600 improve and that the industry will return to growth and 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.040 continue to grow over the long term. At Mattel, we 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:17.640 did see positive consumer demand and improving trends through the 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.840 quarter and expect to outperform the industry and gain market 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:23.839 share for the full year. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.080 Hey, what about Fisher Price, because there's some new products 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:27.880 from Fisher Price coming out in the second quarter of 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.640 the year, including the wooden toy line. Give us demand, 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.199 the expectations, sales expectations for the line for the quarter 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.120 and for the year, and for the brand. 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:40.720 We're very excited about our strategy for Fisher Price. We 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:44.920 just announced a new leader that started this week. The 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.760 Fisher Price is by far the largest segment of the 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:52.840 infant toddler preschool category. We saw increase in consumer demanding 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:57.240 the quarter. This year, Fisher Price will expand its core product, 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.800 enter a new wood segment, expanding our Little People collect 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:06.959 A line were broadening Thomas, We're relaunching Barney and extending 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:12.520 license entertainment with Jurassic and Star Wars. So there's a 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.600 lot that is happening around Fisher Price. Watch out for 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:20.199 the new Woods line, which is a very exciting addition. 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:22.679 Why did that Why did that line take so long? 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.480 Wooden toys have been how to come back for years? 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.120 You know, it takes time to develop quality product. We 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:29.240 this is what we do. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:29.840 UH. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.559 This is our specialty, and we focus on on quality 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:34.199 and innovation. 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:35.240 UH. 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.880 And this is another extension of the line. 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:38.199 UH. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.400 And at the same time, we continue to exit lower 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.280 margin segments to focus on on the on the profitability 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.480 and UH and performance. We do expect Fisher Price to 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.480 grow in the year. It's a value, it's a valid 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.680 asset that's part of our portfolio, and we're very confident 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.440 about the long term growth potential of this important brand 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:04.120 that will be celebrating is celebrating it's ninety fourth anniversary 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:04.560 this year. 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.160 I have to say, Fisher Price, we hit a bunch 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:08.560 of Fisher Price. I had a bunch of I had 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.760 the school, my brother at the airport. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:12.600 We still have we have a bunch. 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.440 I'm going to tell you, you know, the office Little 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.920 People Collector Series, Tim Stanovac, Yeah, oh yeah, I actually 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:19.800 have them absolutely. 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.280 I mean this is another example. This is another example 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:31.120 how brands transcend culture, transcend age to send demographics. You 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.160 take a brand that is designed for infant and toddlers 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.400 and it's and it becomes a film factor that is 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.160 then is now a collector line and through partnership with 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:49.880 the cultural and societal brands and icons that excite and 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.760 delight to Carol. Right, it's great to hear. 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.160 I'm just telling you. We're waiting for the Bloomberg Business 0:13:55.160 --> 0:14:01.720 Week Radio TV version. I could see it. John Tucker, 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:03.120 you'll be a part of that too. I think it 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:04.040 would be very cool. 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.600 That's the same necessary to me, do you know, I 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:08.000 don't know. 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:09.320 You never know, you never know. 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.280 Yeah, we always appreciate all the time you give us. 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:14.679 And really fascinating to see what's been going on at 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:17.640 this company and really iconic brands when you think about branding, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:20.560 Mattel really has so much of it, you know, And 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:22.640 be well, good to talk to you. Enon Cries he's 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:28.200 chairman and chief executive officer of Mattel, joining us from Elsagunda, California. 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.520 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.760 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:36.520 on Apple car. 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.960 Play and and Broight Auto with a Bloomberg. 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:42.160 Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.040 It's the largest online retailer in the world, touching seemingly 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:50.560 every aspect of our lives, from retail, groceries, healthcare, entertainment, 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.680 home security, logistics, and of course the cloud infrastructure that 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.120 makes up the backbone of the Internet. We are, of 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.560 course talking about Amazon, the nearly two true million dollar 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.320 company that reports earnings this coming week. 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.040 Critics have also argued that Amazon is a monopoly, and 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:10.200 last year the FTC filed a monopoly lawsuit against the 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.800 retail giant and what may become one of the largest 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.280 antitrust cases in the twenty first century. 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.440 Dana Mattioli is senior reporter at The Wall Street Journal. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.200 Her new book is called The Everything War, Amazon's ruthless 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.240 quest to own the world and remake corporate power. It 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.920 chronicles how Amazon got to where it is today to 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.320 become one of the most feared companies in the world 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.920 that I got to say, one of the most entrenched too, 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:33.880 in our lives. 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:34.240 Yeah. 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.480 We began by discussing FTC Commissioner Lena Kahn's now famous 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.440 paper that she wrote when she was a student, I'm 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.760 back at Yale Law School, targeting none other than Amazon. 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.400 She was a relative unknown at the time, and law 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.840 review articles typically have a small base of readers. This 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.080 one goes viral and it's the first time that people 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.160 start to piece the words Amazon and monopoly together in 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.720 the same sentence. This was a darling of the company. 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.520 People love their prime. They just associated it with fast 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.600 and free shipping. And she starts to call out behavior 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.240 she sees that she thinks are unintended consequences in a 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.520 change in the way antitrust was being enforced, and she 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.320 thinks that Amazon is this digital Gilded age baron. 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.320 Well, we think about it, right, you go back to 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.280 those barons, right, and who really just controlled industries, right, 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.880 no competition, if you will, a standard oil and others. 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.000 And it is interesting because, you know, Dana, I always 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.680 think about Amazon what they started with, right and books, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.320 and it sounded so innocent and just kind of you know, 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.720 it's become so much a part of our world. That mean, 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.000 I can't I know, in our own home it's like, 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.320 we buy something, but let's go check on Amazon first 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.000 of all what it's going to cost, and you know 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:41.680 how quickly we can get it. I mean, it's become 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.320 so entrenched in our life. Talk to a little bit 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.280 more about you know what Lena Khan had to say 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.360 and how you wanted to kind of explore that. 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.360 Yeah, So Lena's paper says that Amazon's almost become this utility. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.960 It's unavoidable, not just for consumers but for competitors. It's 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.040 become like this highway to get to the Internet through aws, 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.280 and sellers need to be on the website to sell 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.480 because so much of e commerce takes place. They're forty 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.159 percent in the US And she was saying that just 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.240 because at the time Amazon was known for low prices, 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.120 which was the way that that was like the litmus 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.080 test for antitrust enforcement, and during this period it didn't 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:15.639 mean there were in other things that were happening, like 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.919 tying or predatory pricing or other behaviors that would have 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:25.200 been criticized or enforced in different regimes of anti trust enforcement. 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.040 And from there her career just really takes off. It's 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:30.679 this truly meteoric rise. She's twenty seven years old at 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.080 the time. She is now the youngest chair in the 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.880 FTC's one hundred year history, and she's regulating the exact 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.840 agency that is in battle with Amazon. 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.240 And as you note that there is a lawsuit monopoly 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.000 lawsuit against against the company from the FTC, it may 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:49.760 become one of the largest anti trust cases in the 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.160 twenty first century. How do you envision that playing out. 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:56.080 It's a really interesting one. The FTC's lawsuit is about 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.800 Amazon raising prices on consumers, which is much different from 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.040 the article she first penned in twenty seventeen where she 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.960 said that they were predatory pricing. But in the interim years, 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:07.920 the case is that, you know, Amazon was building monopoly. 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:09.720 They had to undercut the market to gain market share. 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.280 Today they had that monopoly and they're able to charge 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.359 monopoly rent. You could start putting all these fees on 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.880 their sellers because they know they have to be there. 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.959 And that's the iteration we're at right now, where these 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.159 sellers are being compressed, their margins are being compressed, and 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.960 they're being forced to raise their prices and consumers, meaning 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:28.240 that consumers pay more. 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.800 You know, is it akin to something like you know, 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.159 a Walmart or one of the big box retailers and 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.080 what they've done to small business kind of on mainstream. 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.560 Is it kind of like akin to that in terms 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.040 of what Amazon has done, Like you know, these smaller 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.199 sellers have to be on their platform, but it's not 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:43.920 easy for them. 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:44.280 Yeah. 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.919 If you look at the last few decades, Amazon's almost 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.840 become like the nineteen nineties boogeyman that Walmart was to 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.879 main street, but it's been replaced with Amazon and their 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.240 effects not just on main street though in other industries 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:55.640 as well. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.480 Dan, one thing that caught my eye was a story 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:02.960 recently about Amazon coming out and saying, Okay, we're now 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:07.000 making this small announcement announcing unlimited grocery delivery for nine 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:08.560 to ninety nine a month for Whole Foods. 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:09.720 On that news, we. 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.719 Saw shares of Instacart fall by more than seven percent. 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.720 We also saw shares of Walmart fall by more than 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.919 one point seven percent. Talk a little bit about how 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.439 that relates to the idea in your book of a 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:28.119 company amassing so much power that just a little announcement 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.800 can cause destruction and shareholder value of competitors. 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.560 This is a very long running theme anytime Amazon even 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.919 files the slightest patent or makes a higher from another sector, 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:41.439 Wallstreet makes very vocal bets on Amazon's ability to just 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.760 dominate ever new industries. There's a whole scene in the 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.320 book where CBS is buying Etna because they're worried about 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.240 Amazon getting into the healthcare space and taking their pharmacy 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.840 business from them. Right, So this is something that CEOs 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.359 are really high alert about, and you know, Wall Street 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.320 doesn't really give the incumbents to the benefit of the 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:00.760 doubt here. 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.000 You know, I'm thinking about this and Amazon is what 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.240 now roughly a one point eight trillion dollar market cap company. 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:09.520 Apple's a lot bigger, It's about two point six trillion. 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.320 You know, what is it about Amazon that just puts 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.320 it in a whole different category in terms of some 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:17.879 of the concerns that you cite in the book, And 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:20.160 how was it allowed to kind of get here? 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.080 Well, I think it's pretty telling. All the major big 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.679 tech companies are now the focus of antitrust lawsuits, and 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.840 there's been this change in attitude toward them after the 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:32.080 tech lash. I would say, while Apple is obviously ubiquitous too, 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:36.040 like we all have iPhones, right, Amazon is unavoidable. Unavoidable 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.080 in some respects. I mean, they underpin a lot of 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.320 the technology we use. I took a lift here. They're 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.080 on AWS. If you watch Netflix, they're on AWS. In 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.719 the middle of reporting the book, they bought my doctor's office, 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:46.960 they bought one medical right. 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:47.840 So even if you're. 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.600 Trying to avoid them, they've now had their tentacles in 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:52.920 so many areas, and I think that you know, analysts 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:54.760 are on high alerts to see where they're going next. 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:56.639 Is it harmful to consumers? 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.520 Though, the FTC says it is. That's the focus of 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.400 the lawsuit. They say that Amazon has raised prices for consumers, 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.760 not just on Amazon, but in the entire online economy 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.240 because of their outsized power in online shopping. And in 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.560 addition to the price is sixty percent of what is 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:14.479 sold on Amazon is third party sellers. And there's some 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.320 great ones out there, but there's also been instances of 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.440 really dangerous products on the website. There's things like carbon 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.879 monoxide detectors that don't detect carbon monoxide. 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.040 No, it's interesting that you say that. There's something My 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:27.920 husband and I were looking at and I'm like, I 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:30.600 don't really know that company let's check it out, because 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.679 there's a lot of listings my view. Don't judge me, 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.000 but there's a lot of junk. I feel like that's 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.120 also on Amazon, and I feel like I have these 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.640 companies been checked out, in other words, their reliability. There's 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.080 a lot not very much friction to just one perspective, 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.240 one view by night sellers, and it's a game of 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:51.840 black them all. Even when they do shut them down, 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.720 they pop up with a new name or a new address, 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.720 and it's really hard to rid a platform with just 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.560 that many sellers of all the bad actors, which does 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.919 lead to people buying dangerous products, but it does make 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:04.000 you what's the responsibility? 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:04.199 Right? 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.359 This is this big broader conversation with have with all 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:08.679 of these social media companies and these companies that have 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.399 so many users, right that you do wonder about the 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.080 responsibility of trusting the platform when you're on it. 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.600 And that's the exact focus of the CPSC right now. 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.320 They're looking into whether Amazon has shirked their responsibility in 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:23.960 regulating their website and there could be a ruling on that. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:25.560 And just because I'm going to get hate mail or 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:27.359 called in by my boss's junk and I mean my 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:31.360 junk questionable maybe sources and stuff, and as a buyer, yep, 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:33.919 I can read reviews. But it's also like there is 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:36.239 I think and understanding that you're on this website that 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:38.280 you think a lot of it is trustworthy and that 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:39.480 it's been vetted in some way. 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:41.040 I mean, my colleagues at the Wall Street Journal had 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:42.840 a big story a few years ago about how some 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:46.280 of these third party sellers were literally dumpster diving and 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:48.680 reselling trash that wouldn't really happen. 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:51.880 So you walk into care, I think fair to say 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:57.240 you're in the clear. You interviewed hundreds of people, Amazon executives, competitors, 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:01.439 small businesses. Talk a little bit about what you found 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.760 over the last few years in how Amazon got to 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:05.320 this place. 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:09.040 Yeah, there are this behemoth of a company with unprecedented 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:12.080 reach and access to data and leverage because of how 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:13.919 big they are. So if you look at how they started, 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.680 it was this online bookseller. No one even knew how 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:18.640 successful it would be. I think it was a surprise 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:20.520 to Jeff, including Jeff there's a scene in. 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:22.359 Theydn't make money for it. They weren't probably a. 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:24.600 Wall Street for a very long time, which helped them 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:26.680 get to where they are. And there's a scene in 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:28.680 the book that in the first few weeks after it launches, 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:30.159 one of their employees is a. 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:30.720 Little bit nervous. 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:32.640 He says, what's going to happen to like Elliott Bay, 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.920 this beloved Seattle bookstore, And Jeff's like, oh, we could 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:37.800 never get rid of Elliott Bay. People love it too much. 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:39.919 And to his credit, that's still there. But think of 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:42.359 the compression of the rest of the bookstores in this country. 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:45.639 It's been a very steep decline. And he wanted this 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:47.640 to be a daily habit, and I'd say he more 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.600 than succeeded there. So just beyond retail, it's the largest 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:54.120 cloud computing company in the US, the biggest parcel carrier. 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:59.040 It's a Hollywood studio, a podcast maker, a healthcare giant, 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:01.920 I mean, and it's going into ever more places. There's 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.080 a scoop in the book that Andy Jassey, the current CEO, 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.040 in the midst of regulators saying you're too big, a 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:09.639 saying we could be atentionally in dollar company in ten years. 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:11.680 I mean, that's pretty telling that they see that much 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:13.280 more space ahead of them. 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:16.080 You know, Apple, we talk a lot about that by 0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:18.280 having this closed network, it makes it kind of almost 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:21.600 a seamless experience, and that is a benefit for consumers. 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:21.960 Right. 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:25.200 They argue that is there something that just by being 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:28.600 big making it evil and so entrenched, or is it 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:31.840 somewhere maybe on the other side, that it actually is 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.560 something that's helpful, whether it's you know, getting healthcare to 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:36.359 people who wouldn't normally get it, Like you know, I'm 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:39.199 trying to understand what the flip side might be of 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:43.920 building this massive infrastructure and massive network. Yeah, I think 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:46.680 Devil's advocate a lot lot of big is necessarily bad. 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:48.840 I think it's how you use your bigness. And the 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:52.560 book does get into some tactics that Amazon has used 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:55.600 in predatory behavior. Is the patterns of this that have 0:24:55.680 --> 0:24:59.400 played out that have caused people to question how they're 0:24:59.480 --> 0:24:59.960 using their power. 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.560 You didn't interview Jeff Bezos, but he did answer questions 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:07.440 based on representatives from Amazon. What was their pushback on 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:08.960 the points that you raised in the book. 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:11.080 I think most of it was off the record, so 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:12.760 I can't get into specifics, but I did a full 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:14.639 fact check of the book. This was not, you know, 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:16.639 a product of access journalism by any means, But I 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:18.800 spoke to more than six hundred people. I spoke to 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:21.840 seventeen current and former s team members. Those are the 0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:24.280 highest ranks of the company that had reported to Jeff 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:27.320 or Anti Jasse and five current and former board members. 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:29.120 So it's very well reported out. 0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:30.120 And I had. 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:32.640 Hundreds of pages of internal documents and emails, and like. 0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:34.320 What's the thing that's going to be kind of on 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:35.600 your radar as this plays out? 0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:38.639 The FTC lawsuit won't go to court until twenty twenty six, 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:41.200 and you know, I think that could a while. Yeah, 0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:43.840 it's a while, and I'm curious to see what Amazon 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:47.080 does in the interim. Funnily enough, a few weeks after 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:49.680 the lawsuit was filed, there was an Amazon all hands 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:52.439 meeting that I had a video to and their general 0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:54.680 counsel was asked his thoughts on the lawsuit and he 0:25:54.720 --> 0:25:56.960 got on stage and he was like a bit dismissive. 0:25:57.040 --> 0:25:58.960 He said, you know, haters are gonna hate, We're gonna 0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:02.359 shake it off. Taylor's up there, so I think this 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:02.960 is everything. 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:06.119 Taylor Swift is in everything. Yeah, she really is. 0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:08.479 She's not on our playlist, not that latest Apple. I 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:11.879 bet you can find her on other stuff. I like great, 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:14.359 so much fun to have you. Dana Mattioli. She's senior 0:26:14.359 --> 0:26:16.199 reporter at The Wall Street Journal. Her new book, The 0:26:16.280 --> 0:26:19.280 Everything Wore, Amazon's ruthless quest to own the world to 0:26:19.320 --> 0:26:20.480 remake corporate power. 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:26.400 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:29.320 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple Car 0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:32.399 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.720 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:39.560 New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:44.359 For the students, it was the ultimate betrayal. Their university 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:46.439 had called in the cops to arrest them for what 0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:50.000 they believed was a righteous protest on campus, so wrote 0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:53.720 our Bloomberg News Higher Education Finance reporter Janet Lauren, after 0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:56.640 Columbia University here in New York called on the New 0:26:56.680 --> 0:27:01.400 York Police Department to intervene on pro Palestinian protests, resulting 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:03.879 in the arrests of more than one hundred people. This 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:06.320 reporting among our most read stories on the Bloomberg this 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:08.280 past week, and safe to say, as we were putting 0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:11.440 this to bed, it was still an evolving story and 0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:13.000 still very heated story. 0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:15.760 I imagine it will continue into the coming weeks as well. 0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:18.000 It does come at a time when institutions across the 0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:20.159 US and around the world are dealing with a heightened 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:24.199 political climate amid protests over Israel's war in Gaza. In 0:27:24.240 --> 0:27:27.119 the past week, we've seen standoffs and arrests at Harvard, Yale, 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:31.000 University of Michigan, University of Texas, at Austin, University of 0:27:31.040 --> 0:27:32.840 California at Berkeley, among others. 0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:33.560 Yeah, a lot. 0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:36.919 It's one of the many challenges leaders of academic institutions 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:40.280 are dealing with. Of course, others include the cost of education, 0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:43.480 also how AI and other technologies will change the way 0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:47.480 teachers teach and students learn, and of course preparing students 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:49.439 for a rapidly changing world. 0:27:49.680 --> 0:27:53.080 Francisco Veloso is dean of Inciat Business School in France, 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:55.240 which is ranked one of the top business schools in 0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:58.200 the world. He joined US along with Bloomberg New senior 0:27:58.320 --> 0:28:02.159 editor Dimitra Cassanids to talk about the delicate balance between 0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:06.159 freedom of speech and student safety amid the current student protests. 0:28:06.440 --> 0:28:09.640 I think the key element is creating a safe, secure 0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:13.480 and supported environment for the community and This has certainly 0:28:13.560 --> 0:28:16.960 been our focus at INSEADS and we have one of 0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:19.560 the most diverse student bodies that. 0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:20.040 You can have. 0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:23.800 I mean, as we usually say at INSEAD, in your classroom, 0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:26.560 everybody is a minority, and that's really what it is. 0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:29.800 I mean, no nationality or ethnicity has more than ten 0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:32.679 to fifteen percent of the population, and that has mean 0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:34.960 that we've worked very hard with our student body to 0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:39.440 create that environment for dialogue, for understanding, and our students 0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:41.280 are telling us that that is what's happening. 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:41.560 You know. 0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:47.720 I have been personally meeting with students from different sensitivities, 0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:52.640 different nationalities and asking them what's happening on campus, and 0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:57.240 in our campus we're having a very positive and productive dialogue. 0:28:57.280 --> 0:28:59.560 That does not mean that there are no sometimes frictions 0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:03.360 and tensions, but not in a way that has led 0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:08.959 to difficulties. On the contrary, the community feels very supported 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:11.840 and safe, and that's where we are. 0:29:12.000 --> 0:29:14.000 Heydan, I want to take a step back and just 0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:16.920 explain how in SIAT is different because I think a 0:29:16.960 --> 0:29:19.520 lot of people who are listening perhaps are in the 0:29:19.640 --> 0:29:23.200 US and they're used to what happens in a two 0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:26.400 year MBA program here in the United States, but that's 0:29:26.480 --> 0:29:28.720 not what you get at in siat No. 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:31.800 So in Siad has been the pioneer school with a 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.960 one year MBA and so we've started that many years ago. 0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:39.440 And we're also a very global school. So we started 0:29:39.640 --> 0:29:42.720 in France in Fontain Blow in the chateau the funt 0:29:42.760 --> 0:29:45.800 and Blow that's our heritage. But twenty years ago we 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:50.360 opened a campus in Singapore or Asia campus, and ten 0:29:50.440 --> 0:29:53.240 years ago we opened the campus in Abu Dhabi and 0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:55.920 we have now a hub here in San Francisco. And 0:29:55.960 --> 0:29:58.680 so our school is extremely global. I mean a third 0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:01.560 of our activities at the moment out of Singapore. And 0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:04.240 this is part of our ethos because the way we 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:06.479 position ourselves is the business school for the world, and 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:08.720 that is about the environment that we create at all 0:30:08.800 --> 0:30:11.440 levels and certainly as a student, as I was just mentioning, 0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:15.520 when you embark on our transformative journey, it's super intense 0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:18.560 in how you engage, but it's also super intense in 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:22.160 this human I mentioned, because of this very diverse space 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:25.920 that you find and this is an amazing discovery experience. 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:27.680 Well, and I wonder and Demitra, I want to bring 0:30:27.720 --> 0:30:29.520 you into this because I do think about or in 0:30:29.560 --> 0:30:34.240 a world where technology can bring people closer, students closer 0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:36.880 from all over the globe. And there's some interesting reporting 0:30:36.960 --> 0:30:39.320 that you guys have all done, our Bloomberg News has 0:30:39.320 --> 0:30:41.760 done about kind of the role of AI in all 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:42.040 of this. 0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:45.400 Yeah, I mean, I think AI is really transforming so much. 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:47.640 And it's interesting because we went from this place of 0:30:47.680 --> 0:30:51.000 being terrified when we were first being exposed to some 0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:54.360 of the more out there applications of it over the 0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:57.000 last two years. But you know, in the ways that 0:30:57.080 --> 0:31:00.920 it'll be used to enable more flexibility, more students from 0:31:00.960 --> 0:31:04.440 far flung places to really engage in something, to something 0:31:04.440 --> 0:31:06.760 as recently as what we've reported on this week, which 0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:09.480 is the ways in which maybe something like AI will 0:31:09.520 --> 0:31:12.640 be brought to bear in how academic paper and research 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:16.400 at business schools will be measured for purposes of accreditation 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.520 to see whether or not to analyze whether or not 0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:22.000 The story we wrote about was a program that some 0:31:22.600 --> 0:31:26.080 folks at school in Philadelphia developed and it is a 0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:30.280 way to see, well, are you upholding and really you know, 0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:35.400 supporting sustainability measures as set out by the un So 0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:39.240 it's really interesting the ways in which this particular innovation 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:41.160 has a role to play. 0:31:41.400 --> 0:31:42.000 And the other. 0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.600 Interesting point Singapore is a big campus of THEIRS and 0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:47.040 it's you know, it's almost as big and significant in 0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:51.080 size as what's happening in Fontainbleau. So that's a big 0:31:51.160 --> 0:31:54.280 direction for what's happening in B school education. Also, just 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:55.800 to underscore that, Well. 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.600 It's interesting. I'm glad you brought that because it's like 0:31:57.600 --> 0:32:00.000 that balance right between physical plant but also what technology 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:01.440 you can do. So come on in on that. 0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:04.160 I think that this is quite critical, as you said, 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:06.920 And it's interesting the point that Dinner just made because 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:09.200 we did a recent survey with our alumni. We have 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:11.760 you know, basically seventy thousand alums, and we asked them 0:32:11.800 --> 0:32:14.000 what do you think about AI you know, Jena I 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:16.960 in particular, how is that you know factoring in? And 0:32:17.040 --> 0:32:19.640 one thing that's very interesting is that, you know, over 0:32:19.800 --> 0:32:22.800 half of the respondents said that they're actually more excited 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:24.760 than concerns and so this is about, you know, how 0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:26.920 is this something that you see as an opportunity or not? 0:32:27.640 --> 0:32:31.360 And about another forty percent said that, you know, they 0:32:31.360 --> 0:32:33.760 have some concerns, but mostly positive and only a very 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.880 small small minority thought about this that being something that 0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:40.200 they're overly concerned. So in fact, I think people that 0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:43.400 feel empowered in their learning trajectory, in their in their 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:47.120 in their professional trajectory, I think are seeing this as 0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:50.840 an interesting opportunity. That's one one aspect that I thought 0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:53.880 would be highlighted. Certainly we're seeing that from our alumni. 0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:55.479 So nice to hear the positive because we do right, 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:57.880 we do get a lot of the horrors potentially exactly. 0:32:57.920 --> 0:32:59.560 And that's what I was That's why I was mentioning 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:02.680 because I think it is important to say that you 0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:05.760 know that in this survey, the majority felt actually very 0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:09.680 positive about the opportunities. I mean, business schools really have 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:12.080 a very important role to play in this discussion on 0:33:12.120 --> 0:33:16.080 different dimensions. So first is of course to help us 0:33:16.120 --> 0:33:18.640 all understand what's going on. I mean, this is a 0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:22.920 transformative technology that's affecting every sector, every business. We need 0:33:22.920 --> 0:33:25.880 to understand what's going on, what's working not working, how 0:33:25.920 --> 0:33:29.000 are people using this technology in a productive way. And 0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:31.320 that's what a school like INSID can do. You know, 0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:33.960 through the cutting edge research. We have faculties that have 0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:37.120 been already looking at these even before Jenny I got 0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:40.480 to the stage that it has now globally, and this 0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:42.600 is something that we're bringing to the classroom and also 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:43.920 bringing to our executive education. 0:33:43.960 --> 0:33:44.560 We have a very. 0:33:44.480 --> 0:33:48.400 Successful program on Transforming your Business with AI, which is 0:33:48.400 --> 0:33:51.120 an example of bringing that to the executive population on 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:54.400 a more immediate basis, but bringing that to the classroom, 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:57.160 you know from the research, which is quite important so 0:33:57.200 --> 0:34:01.560 that people understand. The second one is make students feel 0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:04.360 comfortable about using these tools in the classroom as they 0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:07.200 is going through that learning journey. In all that mentions 0:34:07.280 --> 0:34:10.200 the university and the business schools as to be a safe. 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:11.680 Environment to experiment, to learn. 0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:13.719 So if we're not bringing that to the way that 0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:16.920 we do things with the students, then we're not fulfilling 0:34:16.920 --> 0:34:18.800 our role as a leading business. 0:34:18.960 --> 0:34:21.719 There's a place to make mistakes education and right kind 0:34:21.719 --> 0:34:23.240 of think through things exactly. 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:26.360 And the third thing that I think it's quite interesting 0:34:26.480 --> 0:34:29.520 is actually to think about how you can create new tools, 0:34:29.640 --> 0:34:32.960 new approach to education itself through these new tools, which 0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:35.200 is of course something very important because you know, in 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:38.760 we see ourselves as at the cutting edge of business education, 0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:40.600 so we also it also means we have to think 0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:42.960 about how do we use that to create different tools, 0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:44.880 different approaches in education itself. 0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:47.920 So can you talk a little bit about employment after INCI, 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.680 because no question, that is the reason why people go 0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:52.680 to business school. It's to get jobs that earn more 0:34:52.719 --> 0:34:55.759 money after going to school and then also potentially the 0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:59.120 pivot and switch careers in addition to lifelong networking. But 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:01.640 what are the what are the companies the types of 0:35:01.680 --> 0:35:04.279 companies that are recruiting at the business school right now? 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:06.160 Because I think a lot of people here in the 0:35:06.239 --> 0:35:09.720 US would say, okay, well it's consulting companies are huge 0:35:09.719 --> 0:35:12.839 for schools in New York. Finance of course is huge 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:16.440 for for schools in New York. Increasingly tech in recent 0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:19.080 years obviously, But but how does that look at Incat 0:35:19.360 --> 0:35:19.719 in some. 0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:22.320 Dimensions it is not that different, right, I mean, consulting 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:25.480 is a very important part of the outlook for the 0:35:25.520 --> 0:35:29.160 students that join that join US financed as well, but 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:31.120 not to the same extent as as the schools in 0:35:31.160 --> 0:35:33.640 London or New York. That's not not to be not. 0:35:33.560 --> 0:35:34.200 To be surprised. 0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:39.080 And tech is increasingly is increasingly important. The two aspects 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:41.640 that that is also quite important for US is an 0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:45.680 increasing presence of entrepreneurship and the role of entrepreneurship. You know, 0:35:45.719 --> 0:35:49.600 Pitchbook last September did a very interesting ranking of you know, 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:54.520 what were the schools globally that we're generating more startups 0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:57.399 over the long run and and basically in siacht came 0:35:57.400 --> 0:36:00.000 out for globally or m b A, which was very interesting. 0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:02.879 Then the other part that's quite substantive on the case 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:05.400 of INCIAT is perhaps less on the industry we have 0:36:05.440 --> 0:36:08.040 a variety of industry, but more on the geography. The 0:36:08.080 --> 0:36:11.800 placement of our students is really global. I mean, for example, 0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:14.400 over the last few last few years, and this is 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:18.560 in particular the number of Gulf countries overtook London as 0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:23.400 the most significant placement area for our graduates because the 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:27.319 population that we get is extremely internationally, extremely mobile, so 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:29.759 they look for opportunities in a global scale. And this 0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:31.959 is one of the things that is super interesting about 0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:34.560 our populations. How our students really look and say, Okay, 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.600 maybe it's Singapore, maybe it's Malaysia, maybe it's the UEE, 0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:41.040 or maybe it's London or Paris, and it's in that 0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:45.040 dimentioned that I feel there is a very visible difference 0:36:45.040 --> 0:36:47.960 from some of the you know, perhaps US based business 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:48.880 school significance. 0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:50.080 I feel like a lot of the reporting is a 0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:51.560 lot more on the Mid East and the money and 0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:54.479 the innovation and spending that they are doing right now. 0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:56.839 So for instance, I mean here in the US one 0:36:56.840 --> 0:36:59.480 of the sort of tensions and pressure points in the 0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:01.680 past year too, though on the jobs front has been 0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:04.920 contraction to some degree. I mean, those are still definitely 0:37:04.960 --> 0:37:07.720 the leading industries, but there's still a lot of fear 0:37:08.040 --> 0:37:10.600 and a lot of concern about what we see happening 0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.759 with the consulting jobs, with the finance jobs, certainly with 0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:17.400 the tech jobs. The layoffs have been continuing. It wasn't 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:19.560 just the story for twenty twenty three, it was also 0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:23.080 for twenty twenty four. To what extent has that affected 0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:25.719 your students coming out? And you know, we did a 0:37:25.760 --> 0:37:28.840 story less Spring, and it was affecting our schools and 0:37:28.880 --> 0:37:31.680 graduates at the highest levels of the ranking, like Harvard 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:34.120 grads all the way on down, who were graduating without 0:37:34.200 --> 0:37:35.680 jobs and feeling very nervous. 0:37:36.000 --> 0:37:38.439 And it is also having some impact because of course 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:40.560 there's less opportunities on these and so, which means that 0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:44.719 our students are finding also other opportunities as well, because 0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:47.480 we're seeing just less jobs available in those industries. So 0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:51.000 they're doing these two dimensions. One is the geographical element, 0:37:51.080 --> 0:37:53.399 so perhaps they're interested in consulting and they say, okay, 0:37:53.400 --> 0:37:56.200 if you want consulting, you may have a good opportunity 0:37:56.360 --> 0:37:59.600 in the Middle East, but not in London, for example, 0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:02.040 or in New York. The other part is to look 0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:04.319 at other industries and for example, a big push that 0:38:04.360 --> 0:38:06.880 we've had over the last few years to for example, 0:38:06.880 --> 0:38:09.760 to look at sustainability and to look at the energy transition. 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:13.360 You know, we're also very much supporting our graduates to 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:16.520 explore these other aspects of the role that business schools 0:38:16.560 --> 0:38:20.000 can have, to explore these new opportunities in terms of 0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:23.320 for example, energy transition, sustainability and all of these elements 0:38:23.320 --> 0:38:26.200 that are picking up around the globe, and where we 0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:29.200 feel that we are training our graduates to lead on 0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:31.920 that and very much interested to be and to continue 0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:32.640 to be at the fourth. 0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:34.359 Front of the interesting time to be leading a top 0:38:34.360 --> 0:38:37.800 business school, it's got to be fun. Dean Francisco Velos 0:38:38.080 --> 0:38:40.600 at the NCID Business School joining us here in studio 0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:43.439 along with our own Dimitri Cassaniti senior editor at Bloomberg News. 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:45.040 Thanks to book This is Bloomberg. 0:38:46.520 --> 0:38:50.040 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:53.320 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen 0:38:53.360 --> 0:38:55.520 on Apple card Play and then brout Auto with a 0:38:55.520 --> 0:39:00.160 Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:39:01.000 --> 0:39:06.400 It's too hot, Too hot, too hot. 0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:09.680 Shelter All right, everybody, Well, last week you might remember 0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:12.960 the IMF edging up global growth. Meantime, the Atlanta Fed 0:39:13.000 --> 0:39:16.400 GDP now Model estimate for real GDP growth in the 0:39:16.480 --> 0:39:18.600 US in the first quarter of twenty twenty fourth two 0:39:18.600 --> 0:39:21.160 point nine percent. That was on April sixteenth. It's up 0:39:21.360 --> 0:39:25.160 from two point eight percent before that. We're going to 0:39:25.200 --> 0:39:28.160 get another update from the Atlanta Fed on Wednesday. So 0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:30.160 we have seen the numbers. We've talked about this. They've 0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:31.960 been rotcheting them up higher. 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:35.080 Meantime, on this Earth Day, Bloomberg's Mark Gonglo reminds us 0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:38.040 that the only thing climate change is cooling is growth. 0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:41.720 Mark is Bloomberg opinion editor and columnist who covers climate change. 0:39:41.920 --> 0:39:46.160 He joins us this afternoon from New Jersey. Mark, the 0:39:46.280 --> 0:39:50.839 climate has gotten hotter continues to get hotter. But and 0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:53.560 we know this, We knew that. What was surprising to 0:39:53.600 --> 0:39:56.640 me about the study that you cited is that it's 0:39:56.719 --> 0:40:02.359 going to actually make global income nineteen percent lower by 0:40:02.480 --> 0:40:05.000 twenty forty nine. How do we get there? First of all, 0:40:05.080 --> 0:40:07.080 that's also there, and first of all, that's also bad news. 0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:11.880 I should Yes, global income lower by nineteen percent is 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:15.400 definitely bad news. That amounts to about thirty eight trillion 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:20.000 dollars a year by twenty forty nine. Obviously you're ramping 0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:23.240 up to that point, so you're losing trillions and trillions 0:40:23.280 --> 0:40:27.359 of dollars, and that is coming from just heat for 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:31.960 the most part, extreme heat, variability in temperatures too, and 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:36.560 variability in water, so that affects heat affects human health 0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:40.600 and productivity. Our brains don't work as well, we're not 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:44.560 as productive when we're really hot. And the variability in 0:40:44.680 --> 0:40:49.360 water gives you huge droughts, as we're seeing already in Africa, 0:40:50.239 --> 0:40:53.080 and also gives you terrible flooding, which we're also seeing 0:40:53.080 --> 0:40:57.000 in many other parts of the developing world this week. 0:40:57.800 --> 0:41:03.080 So all of these things affect economic growth, both productivity, agriculture, industry. 0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:07.040 All of that shaving up to nineteen percents off of 0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:09.440 global income, which is not the same as GDP, but 0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:12.640 it's just about the same. It's similar by twenty forty nine. 0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:14.959 Yeah, it's going to impact how people you know, around 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:17.000 the globe, whether or not they've got money to spend right, 0:41:17.040 --> 0:41:20.879 which is certainly creates velocity, economic velocity and growth within 0:41:20.920 --> 0:41:23.800 the economy. Having said that, this study, as you note, 0:41:23.960 --> 0:41:27.800 Mark and your piece, is that it's a little bit more. 0:41:28.160 --> 0:41:31.040 I mean, the cost is more than past research and 0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:34.040 studies have shown. What's the difference. What's why are they 0:41:34.080 --> 0:41:37.160 coming out with this or finding this finding versus maybe 0:41:37.360 --> 0:41:39.360 some more subdued findings of the past. 0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:43.120 Yeah, in fact, it's a lot more. There was a study, 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:46.799 a famous study about five years ago suggested it would 0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:50.359 be more like twenty percent off of global GDP by 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:54.600 twenty one hundred. This study says, if we don't start 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:58.000 cooling the planet down, or if we don't stop making 0:41:58.040 --> 0:42:00.640 the problem worse, we could have a sixty percent hit 0:42:00.719 --> 0:42:03.640 to a global income by twenty one hundred, So you're 0:42:03.680 --> 0:42:08.600 talking magnitudes worse. They say that they have new models 0:42:08.640 --> 0:42:13.520 that they're looking at that incorporate the fact that some 0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:17.960 of these impacts on economics last forever. If you have 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:22.000 a generation of kids who don't learn as much and 0:42:22.080 --> 0:42:26.759 don't have as much economic opportunity, that affects future generations. 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:29.720 And so they have all these different variables they're plugging 0:42:29.719 --> 0:42:31.920 into their model, and they're spitting out these huge numbers. 0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:35.360 You could argue with the numbers, and some climate scientists 0:42:35.360 --> 0:42:38.120 have kind of taken some issue with a few of 0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:40.920 the numbers here and there. I think the message the 0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:43.040 important message to me. There are two important messages to 0:42:43.080 --> 0:42:45.160 me that come out of it, no matter how you 0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:48.120 slice the numbers, which are also very difficult to forecast. 0:42:48.160 --> 0:42:48.520 Of course. 0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:52.839 One is that we are going to lose a lot 0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:55.480 more by not doing anything about climate change than we 0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:58.719 are going to lose by doing something about it. So 0:42:58.920 --> 0:43:02.640 Bnaf Bloomberg suggest it could cost two hundred trillion dollars 0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:06.200 by the middle of this century to mitigate climate change. 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:07.480 Two hundred trillion. 0:43:07.280 --> 0:43:10.319 Dollars is kind of a lot of money, but it's 0:43:10.920 --> 0:43:13.600 you spend that at about six years if you're losing 0:43:14.000 --> 0:43:17.120 thirty eight trillion dollars a year, So it's an investment 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:20.759 to avoid many many more trillions of losses. And the 0:43:20.760 --> 0:43:23.920 second key thing is that much of this economic impact 0:43:23.960 --> 0:43:25.800 is landing on the people who deserve it the least, 0:43:25.840 --> 0:43:31.400 and so developing Africa, South Asia, South America, these places 0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:34.560 are going to see GDP hits of maybe thirty to 0:43:34.600 --> 0:43:37.480 thirty three percent by mid century, again according to this study. 0:43:37.840 --> 0:43:40.160 But again this is consistent with what we know that 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:44.000 these impacts fall most heavily on places that probably deserve 0:43:44.040 --> 0:43:44.520 it the least. 0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:47.000 Explain because there's something you go into in the story 0:43:47.040 --> 0:43:50.399 about this isn't degrowth and I don't know that it's 0:43:50.400 --> 0:43:52.520 a term that I feel like I've been using much 0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:54.200 when it comes to climate change, which is why we 0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:57.000 always love reading your columns. But you note that what 0:43:57.120 --> 0:43:59.720 fossil fuels are doing to the world isn't quite degrowth. 0:44:00.200 --> 0:44:03.160 Growth is what when you kind of slow down output 0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:06.760 to reduce the impact on environment. This isn't what you're. 0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:09.520 Talking about, No, not exactly. At first, Plush, it kind 0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:12.120 of seems like that. And so there are climate activists 0:44:12.120 --> 0:44:13.960 who say, you know, we need to stop growing the 0:44:14.040 --> 0:44:17.200 economy so much, and so that would involve cutting growth. 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:19.680 And I guess an example of this could be when 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:22.680 COVID hit in twenty twenty you saw growth just fall 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:24.960 off the table and all of a sudden, nature was 0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:29.000 healing and emissions weren't as bad. And people said, hey, 0:44:29.160 --> 0:44:30.600 if we just did this all the time, we'd save 0:44:30.640 --> 0:44:33.279 the planet. Well, the problem is you can't really do 0:44:33.320 --> 0:44:36.400 that all the time, because not having any economic growth 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:40.480 creates its own problems, especially again for developing countries who 0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:42.719 haven't had the chance to develop and don't have the 0:44:42.719 --> 0:44:46.120 standards of living that we do. So what this is 0:44:46.360 --> 0:44:50.480 doing is not that even with climate change, the scientists 0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:53.719 are saying, the economy will keep growing, it will just 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:55.839 be stunted, sort of the way. You know, my mom 0:44:55.920 --> 0:44:57.880 used to tell me if I smoked cigarettes, my growth 0:44:57.880 --> 0:45:00.839 would be stunted. So that's it. It would stunt our growth. 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:02.880 We would still grow, but it would be stunted, and 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:06.120 over time it would get much worse. Which is the 0:45:06.239 --> 0:45:08.120 other key message to come out of this, which is 0:45:08.160 --> 0:45:11.799 that there is still time to avoid far worse outcomes. 0:45:12.200 --> 0:45:14.160 I wonder Mark how a message like this resonates in 0:45:14.160 --> 0:45:16.560 your opinion, because Carol and I talk about this all 0:45:16.600 --> 0:45:20.120 the time walking into work when the skies are full 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:23.960 of smoke from wildfires. You know, thousands of miles away. 0:45:25.120 --> 0:45:27.640 That is something there's something visceral about that. You know, 0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:30.879 you're basement because of becoming unusable because three or four 0:45:30.880 --> 0:45:33.640 times a year the weather is so extreme that it floods. 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:36.480 You know, there's something that really hits you about that. 0:45:36.960 --> 0:45:39.799 But I'm wondering if this type of story, this type 0:45:39.800 --> 0:45:43.000 of data hits people the way that those actual other 0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:43.480 things do. 0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:48.200 It's really difficult because you're talking about future generations, and 0:45:48.239 --> 0:45:52.839 we seem to have a real hard time thinking about, well, 0:45:52.880 --> 0:45:54.600 you know, my grandchildren are going to suffer from this. 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:57.920 And then also we have a really hard time putting 0:45:58.120 --> 0:46:01.160 numbers like thirty eight trillion dollars a year into context. 0:46:01.200 --> 0:46:04.200 It's like, okay, thirty eight trillion dollars a year, or 0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:07.439 you read the headlines about well, all the Arctic ice 0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:10.319 is melting and oceans are hotter than they've ever been. 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:13.000 I mean, some of this stuff can be so doomy, 0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:15.120 gloomy and doomy that you just say, all right, well 0:46:15.120 --> 0:46:18.000 we're doomed anyway. I might as well eat a cheeseburger 0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:21.520 and roll coal out in the parking lot. But it 0:46:21.760 --> 0:46:25.160 really is true that we still can make a difference 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:30.239 that We're not doomed by any stretch yet, and so 0:46:31.360 --> 0:46:34.040 I think sometimes numbers like this, we are already suffering 0:46:34.120 --> 0:46:36.080 hits to our pocketbook right now. We talk about thirty 0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:38.440 eight trillion by twenty fifty, people say, I don't even 0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:39.040 know what that means. 0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:39.560 I don't care. 0:46:39.880 --> 0:46:42.480 But people are losing money in Florida as we speak, 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:45.880 and in California because they can't get their homes insured. 0:46:45.920 --> 0:46:49.719 And the next wildfire season, the next hurricane season, the 0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:51.719 next floods that come, there are going to be a 0:46:51.719 --> 0:46:53.120 lot of people who are going to be surprised to 0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:56.239 find that they're under insured and so and they're going 0:46:56.280 --> 0:46:58.799 to have They're going to take a huge financial and 0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:02.399 economic hit. So these economic hits are happening right now, 0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:05.320 and I think maybe that's a way to help contextualize 0:47:05.320 --> 0:47:07.799 it for people, to make it real, like wildfire smoke. 0:47:07.840 --> 0:47:10.520 Mark to that point. There's another story on the Bloomberg 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:13.960 and it talks about the economic impact of climate change, 0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:16.759 specifically on global tourism, broken down by some of the 0:47:16.760 --> 0:47:18.880 top countries that rely on tourism for growth. But the 0:47:18.920 --> 0:47:21.400 whole idea is in this story. It says, by the 0:47:21.480 --> 0:47:23.920 end of the century residents of northern countries will generally 0:47:23.960 --> 0:47:27.880 see sunny spring like bomb a pair a peer, excuse me, 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:30.880 earlier in the winter. Conversely, those in the south, including 0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:34.200 equatorial regions and extending into southern Europe in the US 0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:36.800 well for the most part, enjoy fewer days of temperate 0:47:36.840 --> 0:47:39.640 weather year round. I mean, this is something we talk about, 0:47:39.640 --> 0:47:43.000 tourism so important to so many different either cities or 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:46.839 countries like this is again another economic impact for. 0:47:46.840 --> 0:47:48.920 Sure, and even in those places, so even in the 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:51.399 places that will bear less of the brond, there still 0:47:51.440 --> 0:47:53.960 is an impact. There's an economic impact. And in some 0:47:54.000 --> 0:47:56.080 of those countries you're talking about where there will be 0:47:56.120 --> 0:48:00.880 sunnier days, but maybe your skiing industry doesn't get much snow, 0:48:00.920 --> 0:48:02.600 and so you lose a lot of tourism that way. 0:48:02.800 --> 0:48:05.799 And then you have climate refugees leaving the places that 0:48:05.800 --> 0:48:07.279 are hit a lot to try to go to the 0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:10.040 nicer places. And then you have a whole political issue. 0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:15.000 Yeah, changing after days though, like changing interesting, tough, but 0:48:15.160 --> 0:48:17.680 as you always say, maybe not too late. That always 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:20.480 gives me hope. Mark Gungloff, thank you so much, editor 0:48:20.520 --> 0:48:23.200 at Bloomberg Opinion. Joining us there in New York City. 0:48:23.280 --> 0:48:24.960 Check out his column. You can find it on the 0:48:25.000 --> 0:48:28.040 Bloomberg at also at Bloomberg dot com slash Opinion. 0:48:30.800 --> 0:48:34.680 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:48:34.760 --> 0:48:37.959 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on applecar Play 0:48:38.000 --> 0:48:40.839 and Androyd Auto with the Bloomberg Business And You can 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:44.120 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:47.840 York station Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:49.839 Today is there a day? 0:48:50.000 --> 0:48:52.520 And an important thing to think about is where on 0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:54.239 Earth all of our food comes from? 0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:56.320 Yeah, And when it comes to farming in the US, Well, 0:48:56.400 --> 0:48:59.680 farms are becoming fewer and farther between the number of 0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:02.280 farms in the US following by more than one hundred 0:49:02.280 --> 0:49:05.080 and forty thousand between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty two, 0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:08.680 and the number of farm acres fell by twenty million 0:49:08.800 --> 0:49:11.000 over that same period of time. This is according to 0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:14.320 USDA data cited by the American Farm Bureau of Federation 0:49:14.640 --> 0:49:17.440 as an advocacy group that represents farmers and ranchers but 0:49:17.719 --> 0:49:19.000 generally on the decline. 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:20.560 Well, Yeah, and the group argues Carol that there are 0:49:20.600 --> 0:49:23.080 too many challenges that just make it unsustainable for family 0:49:23.120 --> 0:49:26.320 farms to stay in business these days. That's where Elmer 0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:28.600 Mayer comes in. He's the co founder and CEO of 0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.720 neatly If. It's working on technology that uses sensors, AI 0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:34.680 and robotics to get farmers a granular view of their 0:49:34.680 --> 0:49:35.880 cultivation environment. 0:49:35.920 --> 0:49:37.319 The idea is that. 0:49:37.440 --> 0:49:41.440 Increasing cop yields and reducing costs, of course, helps with 0:49:41.520 --> 0:49:45.600 the growing environment. Allan joins us from Santa Cruz, California. 0:49:45.640 --> 0:49:47.839 Good to have you back on the program, Almar, how 0:49:47.880 --> 0:49:48.600 are you good. 0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:49.759 Thank you so much for having me. 0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:50.040 Yeah. 0:49:50.080 --> 0:49:50.799 Thanks, we'll be back. 0:49:50.880 --> 0:49:52.680 Yeah, thanks for joining us again. Give us an update 0:49:52.680 --> 0:49:55.840 on where exactly you are with this spider technology and 0:49:56.160 --> 0:50:00.520 explain once again for audience exactly how it helped farmers. 0:50:00.960 --> 0:50:01.920 Yeah, happy to do so. 0:50:02.640 --> 0:50:06.480 It's basically a football stadium camera for greenhouses or indoor 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:10.440 growing environments. It's like a cable based system which, like 0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:13.520 a football stadium camera, basically moves around they cannot be 0:50:13.960 --> 0:50:18.560 and floats up off the crop and monitors the crop. 0:50:18.600 --> 0:50:21.279 It collects a lot of different data like temperature, HU 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:24.400 made it DC or two. It takes images to understand 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:27.919 what's going on with each plant and analyzes it. 0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:29.920 So it's basically alleviates that. 0:50:29.920 --> 0:50:33.400 Burn for cultivators to walk the crop every day and 0:50:33.480 --> 0:50:37.480 check out every plant, which is tedious and like not scalable. 0:50:37.920 --> 0:50:40.560 Is it possible in your mind ever to use this 0:50:41.360 --> 0:50:43.799 in fields outside and outside of greenhouses? 0:50:44.000 --> 0:50:44.759 Oh, definitely. 0:50:44.920 --> 0:50:46.880 The way how we look at it is that Neatly 0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:49.400 is based on two pillars. One is the automation the 0:50:49.520 --> 0:50:51.640 data collection, like the robotic side of things that we 0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:54.319 developed the neative spider to harvest the data. 0:50:54.800 --> 0:50:58.400 But then the other part is all the data analytics. 0:50:57.800 --> 0:51:01.359 Like the processing of the data AI which picks up 0:51:01.360 --> 0:51:05.319 on bland health, on pests, on crop properties, and that's 0:51:05.360 --> 0:51:07.879 sygnostic to where the data comes from. So we could 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:11.120 easily either mount four pillars outside of a vineyard and 0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:14.040 have a spider collected data, or mount the same sensor 0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:16.239 box onto our drone and collect the data in an 0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:16.840 open field. 0:51:17.040 --> 0:51:18.560 Talk to us a little bit about all of the 0:51:18.680 --> 0:51:23.319 data that you have been collecting, the quantity and kind 0:51:23.320 --> 0:51:27.000 of the diversity of that data. That helps you help 0:51:27.160 --> 0:51:29.399 your clients, right, so they. 0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:31.960 The way how we looked at it originally was like 0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:36.920 we try to understand how cultivators operate their environment their fields, 0:51:36.960 --> 0:51:40.560 like the greenhouses, and they heavily rely on the visual 0:51:40.600 --> 0:51:43.680 feed They obviously monitor the environmentals, they try to understand 0:51:43.719 --> 0:51:45.920 what's going on in the soil and the substrate, but 0:51:45.960 --> 0:51:49.200 then they really rely on looking at the plant, assessing 0:51:49.239 --> 0:51:51.839 what's going on, reading that language of their plants and 0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:54.320 like doing that, but like moving around the plant, walking 0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:57.960 the greenhouse, et cetera. And that was really what inspired 0:51:58.040 --> 0:52:01.439 us to create like a system which is flexible, low cost, 0:52:01.600 --> 0:52:04.120 easy to install, but at the same time provides all 0:52:04.160 --> 0:52:07.080 this information which is necessary to assess what's going on 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:12.200 in the field. And so having image data, collecting, the 0:52:12.360 --> 0:52:16.240 assessing what's like taking like assessing what's how the blends 0:52:16.239 --> 0:52:17.680 look like, what the issues might. 0:52:17.560 --> 0:52:20.879 Be, is just a new domain and new dimension which 0:52:20.880 --> 0:52:22.319 we can offer to the cultivators. 0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:25.319 We count every yellow leaf, for example, the count every 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:29.600 necrotic leaf, every folded leaf, the pests. We count every 0:52:29.640 --> 0:52:32.880 flower of flower size, how it evolves throughout the growth cycle. 0:52:33.200 --> 0:52:35.200 So now all of a sudden you have a direct 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:39.400 feedback loop to whatever you do in the field, whatever happens, 0:52:39.800 --> 0:52:42.520 and you can say like, oh, my crop has ten 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:46.200 percent more yellowing today. It has five percent less folding 0:52:46.719 --> 0:52:49.120 and compare crops across different growth cycle. 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:49.880 That's unique. 0:52:49.920 --> 0:52:52.440 It's kind of like the ultimate drome or spy camera. 0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:54.400 It'd be quite fair. And it reminds me of if 0:52:54.400 --> 0:52:55.799 you've ever gone to a sports game or I think 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:58.200 about we're in the US Open covering it tennis, and 0:52:58.239 --> 0:53:00.560 it's that camera that comes down and zooms and it's 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:04.080 on these cables and it catches people you know, that 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:06.560 are watching in the stands. So it's really kind of 0:53:06.760 --> 0:53:10.760 interesting in terms of the technology. And having said that, 0:53:10.840 --> 0:53:12.799 you guys have been up and running for about I 0:53:12.800 --> 0:53:16.360 believe four years or so. Now give us an idea 0:53:16.360 --> 0:53:18.759 of what the impact if this is going to be 0:53:18.760 --> 0:53:22.400 helpful in terms of yield and growing and productivity and efficiency. 0:53:22.440 --> 0:53:24.640 I mean, tell us what the results have been from 0:53:24.719 --> 0:53:27.360 some of the studies that you guys have done or 0:53:27.440 --> 0:53:29.160 some of the customers that you're working with. 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:32.239 Yeah, it has been an amazing journey so far. You've 0:53:32.239 --> 0:53:35.560 started about four years ago. It took us like half 0:53:35.560 --> 0:53:37.200 a year nine months to come up with the idea 0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:39.680 of the spider and then we executed and that idea 0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:42.520 be quickly installed, first prototypes and then. 0:53:42.400 --> 0:53:45.000 Iterated improved and sure that it works reliably. 0:53:45.040 --> 0:53:47.520 It collects the data which we need and we have 0:53:47.600 --> 0:53:49.719 been running these systems now for over two years in 0:53:49.760 --> 0:53:52.960 the field, and last summer we then decided to ramp 0:53:53.040 --> 0:53:55.880 up production to really like accelerate and like produce more 0:53:55.920 --> 0:53:57.920 and more of the systems because we realized that the 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:00.799 customers really love it and there's interest. And since the 0:54:00.840 --> 0:54:04.279 beginning of the year we have tripled installations and we 0:54:04.640 --> 0:54:07.120 have a backlock of orders now until June, which is 0:54:07.239 --> 0:54:07.880 very exciting. 0:54:08.160 --> 0:54:09.560 But it really seems like. 0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:13.560 A new concept of what you get from in terms 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:16.600 of data from the field. But once customers see that 0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:19.920 with their own field, it's just a very sticky product, 0:54:19.960 --> 0:54:22.400 they quickly understand the value and the power of this 0:54:22.480 --> 0:54:23.239 and they want more. 0:54:23.480 --> 0:54:26.759 How do you scale this? It's I mean, I've a 0:54:26.800 --> 0:54:30.399 hard time imagining the salesforce that's required to go out 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:33.960 and sell this product across the US and across the 0:54:34.000 --> 0:54:34.760 world to farms. 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:35.600 It's not an easy thing. 0:54:35.680 --> 0:54:37.359 And I'm curious how much it costs because I'm thinking 0:54:37.360 --> 0:54:41.080 about smaller independent farmers which are increasingly whether it's organic 0:54:41.200 --> 0:54:43.360 or regenerative farming, which we've been doing a lot on 0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:45.560 in the last couple of weeks, you know, whether or 0:54:45.600 --> 0:54:46.440 not it's affordable. 0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:49.839 Right, So the scaling itself right now, it's a lot 0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:52.640 about like going to trade shows, presenting a system, talking 0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:56.160 to potential customers, and the world of mouth by customers 0:54:56.200 --> 0:55:01.359 themselves where we get a lot of incoming demand. They 0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:04.759 obviously like installing the systems. Right now, it's our team 0:55:04.800 --> 0:55:07.760 which still goes to the different places install the first system, 0:55:08.080 --> 0:55:11.560 but it's really designed in a way where the customers 0:55:11.640 --> 0:55:14.120 can install it by themselves. Most of them have like 0:55:14.280 --> 0:55:16.799 facility team if they are bigger, but even like you know, 0:55:16.880 --> 0:55:19.520 all the all the cultives are in general very handy. 0:55:19.600 --> 0:55:21.200 They have to fix a lot of the issues around 0:55:21.200 --> 0:55:24.120 their farm anyway. So we try to design it in 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:26.920 a way which makes it very easy to install, so 0:55:26.920 --> 0:55:28.880 that we can just shift them a box, they install 0:55:28.920 --> 0:55:32.600 the system, and that removes all that overhead of installation costs, 0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:33.040 et cetera. 0:55:34.280 --> 0:55:36.440 Yeah, cost wise, it's a very interesting. 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:39.560 We try to alleviate that initial hurdle to kind of 0:55:39.920 --> 0:55:42.319 say like everyone can just try it out, you know, 0:55:42.520 --> 0:55:45.520 so you can rent the hardware for like three hundred 0:55:45.560 --> 0:55:48.080 dollars a month. You basically rent the hardware as long 0:55:48.120 --> 0:55:50.279 as you want at the point where you want to 0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:52.839 commit to it, you just purchase it. It's a couple 0:55:52.840 --> 0:55:55.000 of thousand dollars to purchase the hardware and then you 0:55:55.040 --> 0:55:58.960 get a discount, so it's really worthwhile basically that investment. 0:55:59.320 --> 0:56:01.160 But we didn't want have anyone. 0:56:00.800 --> 0:56:04.320 To like really, you know, think long about before trying 0:56:04.320 --> 0:56:06.200 it out, because it's really this game change when you 0:56:06.239 --> 0:56:09.640 see your own data gathered by the device. 0:56:09.760 --> 0:56:12.719 One thing I'm thinking, you see, you know, forward to 0:56:12.760 --> 0:56:15.560 be kind of a game changer on the industry perhaps 0:56:15.960 --> 0:56:20.120 in terms of methods. Is the industrial farmers getting involved? 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:23.480 Are any of them interested? Are they biting and signing 0:56:23.520 --> 0:56:24.280 up for the systems? 0:56:24.600 --> 0:56:27.600 Definitely, they love it, especially the ones which have multiple 0:56:27.640 --> 0:56:33.200 facilities across different states or countries. They always struggle that 0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:35.440 they have, you know, they're experts which didn't have to 0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:38.640 send around. They fly around, visit each facility and assess 0:56:38.680 --> 0:56:42.440 what's going on with our system. They can provide way 0:56:42.480 --> 0:56:46.120 better feedback remotely, they can guide the teams underground. 0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:47.600 They can compare. 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:50.560 Data across different facilities, which obviously allows them to like 0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:53.879 standardize it more and become more consistent. So we see 0:56:53.880 --> 0:56:58.400 a lot of very very largest excitement from exactly bigger 0:56:58.440 --> 0:56:59.759 industrial cultivators. 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:04.040 Really appreciate you joining us this afternoon with an update, Elmare, 0:57:04.800 --> 0:57:07.279 Thanks so much, Elma Mayor. He's the co founder and 0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:12.440 CEO of Netleaf, the company using technology sensors AI robotics 0:57:12.440 --> 0:57:14.520 to give farmers a granular view of their crop. 0:57:15.360 --> 0:57:18.880 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:22.160 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen 0:57:22.200 --> 0:57:24.360 on Apple car Play and and Brout Auto with a 0:57:24.360 --> 0:57:28.560 Bloomberg Business act or watch us live on YouTube. 0:57:29.280 --> 0:57:32.320 Tim Have you ever thought about grabbing your family, leaving 0:57:32.320 --> 0:57:35.040 your stable job and life in New York City go 0:57:35.160 --> 0:57:39.120 on to go pursue a dream of doing something completely 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:41.800 different in another country, say making wine in the south. 0:57:41.880 --> 0:57:45.200 Who hasn't had these sort of like you know, fantasies 0:57:45.280 --> 0:57:47.440 about just throwing it all away. 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:48.680 And going and doing something different. 0:57:48.720 --> 0:57:51.120 So about your dream to me is out west zer 0:57:51.160 --> 0:57:52.080 a scheme. 0:57:51.760 --> 0:57:54.240 Out to do with wine. 0:57:54.600 --> 0:57:57.120 But anyway, this family man, that's what they did. 0:57:57.280 --> 0:57:57.920 That's pretty cool. 0:57:57.960 --> 0:58:01.200 Stephen Kronk left his career in TELECOMMUNITYSS in South London 0:58:01.520 --> 0:58:04.760 and moved to Provence, France, with his family, despite not 0:58:04.920 --> 0:58:09.120 speaking much French, all because he wanted to get into wine. Yeah, 0:58:09.160 --> 0:58:09.440 this was. 0:58:09.360 --> 0:58:11.680 Pretty hard on his family, he told us later. Stephen 0:58:11.880 --> 0:58:15.200 is the owner of Maison Marabeau, a winery in Provence 0:58:15.240 --> 0:58:19.160 that not only produces rose but also practices regenerative farming. 0:58:19.440 --> 0:58:23.080 Steven Stapayer in New York Studio on how it all started, 0:58:23.600 --> 0:58:25.560 and yes, we may have sampled a bit of wine 0:58:25.640 --> 0:58:27.240 here and there, just a little bit. 0:58:27.480 --> 0:58:28.240 It was a slow burn. 0:58:28.320 --> 0:58:30.360 It took a long time to persuave my wife to 0:58:31.240 --> 0:58:33.160 sell the house, to take the children out of school 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:36.960 and move to the south of France. Actually took ten years. 0:58:37.840 --> 0:58:39.400 And I've been talking about it for so long. My 0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:41.120 friends were getting bored and. 0:58:41.040 --> 0:58:42.760 I had to do it or shut up, just doing 0:58:42.800 --> 0:58:43.240 a shut up. 0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:44.920 And I had one friend came to see us from 0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:48.200 Switzerland and he said, Stephen, you've been talking about this 0:58:48.280 --> 0:58:50.240 every time I come here. And he said, let's put 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:52.760 some dates on the table. So in fact, we used 0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:54.680 to have a blackboard in the in our kitchen and 0:58:54.760 --> 0:58:56.080 he said, okay, so when are you going to do this? 0:58:56.160 --> 0:58:58.000 And we have worked it back and in the end 0:58:58.040 --> 0:58:59.960 we ended up with a date of May two thousand 0:59:00.040 --> 0:59:02.400 and six, and he took a photograph of that, and 0:59:02.520 --> 0:59:04.680 he went back to Switzerland in May two thousand and six. 0:59:04.720 --> 0:59:06.280 He sent me that photograph and said, so, where are 0:59:06.320 --> 0:59:08.080 you living now? And he knew where I was living, 0:59:08.320 --> 0:59:11.960 and I felt like that guy talking about it, So 0:59:12.760 --> 0:59:15.160 I went into action. I'd already kind of paid off 0:59:15.200 --> 0:59:16.600 most of the mortgage by then, because that was the 0:59:16.640 --> 0:59:20.000 only financing we had. You know, we know you're either 0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:21.920 born into this world or you buy into it, but 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:24.080 we didn't have a huge amount of capital. I made 0:59:24.160 --> 0:59:26.840 enough to do that to do that, so I started 0:59:26.840 --> 0:59:30.280 doing research. And you know, there's an expression in the 0:59:30.280 --> 0:59:32.440 wine trade which is you can you can make a 0:59:32.480 --> 0:59:34.760 small fortune in the wine trade if you start with 0:59:34.800 --> 0:59:38.800 a large fortune. It's highly capital and intensive, and it 0:59:38.840 --> 0:59:40.320 was always going to be a struggle. And I was 0:59:40.320 --> 0:59:42.040 trying to work out, Okay, so if I buy a vineyard, 0:59:42.040 --> 0:59:44.080 how do I scale? And then I met a guy 0:59:44.120 --> 0:59:45.760 in the south of France when I was doing my research, 0:59:45.760 --> 0:59:47.840 and he said, Stephen, there was three v's in the 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:52.560 wine business. Viticulture so growing in the grapes, vinification turning 0:59:52.600 --> 0:59:56.200 grapes into wine, and vondre selling the stuff, and he said, 0:59:56.360 --> 0:59:58.720 there are many people here who are great at growing, 0:59:59.080 --> 1:00:02.480 growing grapes and and making wine, but the Harbit's actually 1:00:02.560 --> 1:00:05.520 selling the stuff, so why don't you focus on that. 1:00:05.600 --> 1:00:07.320 So we sort of approach it from the other way around. 1:00:07.320 --> 1:00:10.240 It's a bit like the Champagne model. So oftentimes that 1:00:10.280 --> 1:00:12.800 the Champagne brands won't own all the land, they'll work 1:00:12.880 --> 1:00:15.640 with growers. So this was great because it suddenly opened 1:00:15.720 --> 1:00:18.280 up a new way of doing things, and particularly in Provance, 1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:20.520 where the cost of land is expensive, and this is 1:00:20.520 --> 1:00:22.760 where the megastars come to live. I mean, it's one 1:00:22.760 --> 1:00:24.760 of the most beautiful parts of the world. It is 1:00:24.800 --> 1:00:28.400 absolutely beautiful. And so this way we could actually find 1:00:28.400 --> 1:00:31.680 the growers to work with and kind of reverse engineer it. 1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:35.200 So we decided to build the brand first, and I 1:00:35.240 --> 1:00:37.960 went to I found the growers to work with. I 1:00:38.000 --> 1:00:40.120 went I went into Waitros, which is one of the 1:00:40.160 --> 1:00:42.920 big stores in the UK, and convinced him that I 1:00:42.960 --> 1:00:45.520 could I could make this wine fly from shelves. And 1:00:45.560 --> 1:00:46.240 that's how it started. 1:00:46.280 --> 1:00:48.920 So he basically created the created the band, created the market, 1:00:49.240 --> 1:00:51.120 and then went back to kind of figuring out how 1:00:51.160 --> 1:00:53.640 you're exactly how you want to be really doing it 1:00:53.800 --> 1:00:54.680 exactly exactly. 1:00:54.720 --> 1:00:57.640 So we five years ago we bought the vineyard, but 1:00:57.640 --> 1:00:59.640 we had we built the brand for the first ten years. 1:01:00.480 --> 1:01:03.440 Stephen talk to us about you said, you kind of 1:01:03.520 --> 1:01:06.080 worked a little bit backwards, developed the brand, developed the 1:01:06.120 --> 1:01:08.480 market for what you guys do, and then kind of 1:01:08.480 --> 1:01:11.240 went backwards regenerated farming. Did you know you always wanted 1:01:11.240 --> 1:01:13.200 to do that and how easy was that to do 1:01:13.680 --> 1:01:15.160 in making wine? 1:01:15.760 --> 1:01:17.080 No, I didn't know I was going to do it 1:01:17.520 --> 1:01:19.560 when we bought the vineyard. I actually looked at thirty 1:01:19.640 --> 1:01:21.600 nine vineyards before we found the right one. I mean, 1:01:21.600 --> 1:01:25.360 it's in land from Sandra Pe, It's surrounded by nature reserve. 1:01:25.400 --> 1:01:28.520 It's the most stunning parcel of land. But it had 1:01:28.560 --> 1:01:31.200 been farmed conventionally for twenty plus years. And when I 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:35.000 say conventionally, I mean they spray it with everything, and 1:01:35.080 --> 1:01:37.080 so the soil organic matter. 1:01:36.920 --> 1:01:37.560 Was nearly dead. 1:01:37.600 --> 1:01:38.920 I say, wasn't it worn out? 1:01:39.040 --> 1:01:39.240 Yeah? 1:01:39.240 --> 1:01:42.840 It was worn out, completely depleted, And I knew I 1:01:42.840 --> 1:01:45.560 was wanted to farm organically, But organically doesn't. 1:01:45.720 --> 1:01:48.040 Organic farming doesn't give you a pathway to rebuild. 1:01:48.160 --> 1:01:49.960 It just gives you a checklist of what you can't do, 1:01:50.320 --> 1:01:53.280 so you can't spray any synthetic third license herbicize. But 1:01:53.320 --> 1:01:54.880 a friend of mine sent me an article written by 1:01:55.200 --> 1:01:57.160 Eric Asimov of the New York Times. 1:01:57.520 --> 1:01:59.640 A wine guy, we could say, a wine guy, very 1:01:59.680 --> 1:02:01.960 good life, some of the science fiction guy, but a 1:02:02.000 --> 1:02:02.560 wine guy. 1:02:02.440 --> 1:02:03.120 Yeah, exactly. 1:02:03.320 --> 1:02:06.600 And he'd written an article about this lady in Oregon 1:02:06.640 --> 1:02:09.920 called Mimi Castile and she was farming regeneratively and I'd 1:02:09.960 --> 1:02:12.560 seen in the article pictures of goats and chickens and 1:02:12.960 --> 1:02:16.560 she running around the vineyard completely overgrown. I thought, I 1:02:16.600 --> 1:02:18.600 want some of that. And the article talked about the 1:02:18.600 --> 1:02:21.000 fact that soil can rebuild, and so, yeah, I reached 1:02:21.000 --> 1:02:21.400 out to her. 1:02:21.440 --> 1:02:24.600 Does it make a big difference for the grapes, the taste, 1:02:24.760 --> 1:02:26.000 and then of course the wine. 1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:27.320 It does. 1:02:28.440 --> 1:02:31.480 But actually, when I realized that wine schools weren't teaching this, 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:35.480 I formed a nonprofit three years ago and bought Mimi 1:02:35.520 --> 1:02:37.480 in as a trustee and a permaculturist. And now we 1:02:37.520 --> 1:02:41.920 have eight different trustees supporting it, and we want to 1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:44.200 prove the science that actually it does work and it 1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:46.560 tastes better and actually, you know, it seems to be 1:02:46.640 --> 1:02:49.000 that input costs drop as well. Because you're not plowing 1:02:49.080 --> 1:02:51.240 or spraying. You're working with nature rather than against it. 1:02:51.560 --> 1:02:54.040 You're working in it in a poly culture rather than monoculture. 1:02:54.400 --> 1:02:57.000 So if input costs can drop, yields can be stable, 1:02:57.280 --> 1:02:59.760 but quality can increase. It's like, what's not to like? 1:03:00.160 --> 1:03:01.720 So we're on a mission to sort of convert the 1:03:01.720 --> 1:03:04.560 world to farming regeneratively, to lose the mindset of monoculture. 1:03:04.680 --> 1:03:06.360 I want to We brought some wines and I want 1:03:06.360 --> 1:03:08.240 to try a little bit and you can walk us through. 1:03:08.280 --> 1:03:10.360 But this whole idea of using animals right to kind 1:03:10.400 --> 1:03:13.800 of like rework the soil and you know they're eating, 1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:16.960 they're doing their duty, if you will, But it's all 1:03:16.960 --> 1:03:19.000 working into the soil. It's kind of wild, right, but 1:03:19.160 --> 1:03:22.040 so natural? Yeah, I am I being too basic? 1:03:22.720 --> 1:03:24.360 Is that the definition of the general firement? 1:03:24.520 --> 1:03:27.440 Yut? But that's exactly what is. It is wild and 1:03:27.480 --> 1:03:27.960 it's natural. 1:03:28.000 --> 1:03:29.760 That's why the animals are running around. 1:03:29.520 --> 1:03:31.080 Right exactly. That's exactly it. 1:03:31.120 --> 1:03:33.800 You're trying to basically duplicate what happens in nature in 1:03:33.840 --> 1:03:36.040 the vineyard in a way that still works for the vines. 1:03:36.160 --> 1:03:38.320 I love it. So it makes perfect sense, all right, 1:03:38.320 --> 1:03:38.880 tell us We've. 1:03:38.800 --> 1:03:42.280 Got three wines here and tell us. 1:03:42.560 --> 1:03:45.040 So yeah, the first one is we call Mirror b Pure, 1:03:45.320 --> 1:03:47.560 which is our flagship wine. So this one. If we're 1:03:47.560 --> 1:03:49.560 getting a fancy account, we'll always try and get it 1:03:49.600 --> 1:03:52.880 in there. So I would say it's a classic provinced rose. 1:03:53.640 --> 1:03:55.640 One of the great things about provounced rose is it's 1:03:55.680 --> 1:03:58.560 always dry, and that's one reason why people always go 1:03:58.640 --> 1:04:00.880 to Province for their rose wine. And it's also the 1:04:00.920 --> 1:04:04.240 only wine version of the world that focuses itself on rose. 1:04:04.720 --> 1:04:07.360 So it's ninety one percent of production is now rose wine, 1:04:07.600 --> 1:04:08.920 so this is super refreshing. 1:04:09.040 --> 1:04:10.440 Ninety percent of the world's production. 1:04:11.200 --> 1:04:13.520 Ninety one percent of the production from Province is rose, 1:04:14.080 --> 1:04:15.560 so it's only a few percent of red and wine. 1:04:15.600 --> 1:04:17.200 So and there's no other wine version of the world 1:04:17.280 --> 1:04:19.720 like that, So we really are that the experts in 1:04:19.760 --> 1:04:23.520 Provence and these wines are so versatile, so you could 1:04:23.560 --> 1:04:26.960 imagine sipping this by the pool without any food. But 1:04:27.000 --> 1:04:29.520 also it goes so well with so many not just because. 1:04:29.280 --> 1:04:31.680 It's Friday and it's been a week, but this is lovely. 1:04:31.520 --> 1:04:32.400 Thank you, very good. 1:04:33.080 --> 1:04:34.560 How much does a bottle of this retail for? 1:04:34.880 --> 1:04:35.960 This is about twenty five bucks. 1:04:37.760 --> 1:04:38.280 It's great. 1:04:38.680 --> 1:04:41.360 Well, you know that's interesting because we spend so much 1:04:41.360 --> 1:04:43.400 time talking about price point. I mean, that's a great 1:04:43.440 --> 1:04:45.520 price point, and it's interesting. I feel like there's been 1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:48.440 this new reality in wine that you don't necessarily have 1:04:48.440 --> 1:04:49.360 to spend a ton of money. 1:04:49.800 --> 1:04:53.120 Yeah, no, there's I think wine at lower price points 1:04:53.120 --> 1:04:54.320 is getting much better quality. 1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:54.520 Than it was. 1:04:54.600 --> 1:04:56.160 Is that a way of also getting to the younger 1:04:56.200 --> 1:04:58.680 generation that we continually talk about that say that they're 1:04:58.720 --> 1:05:00.520 not interested in wine anymore, or even. 1:05:00.880 --> 1:05:03.120 An alcohol, or alcohol's an issue with these days. 1:05:03.200 --> 1:05:06.880 I know that my kids aren't like that. But then, kidding, 1:05:07.200 --> 1:05:08.479 just kidding, I think it's it's funny. 1:05:08.520 --> 1:05:10.800 I was listening to an article recently about cocktails and 1:05:11.480 --> 1:05:13.560 because cocktails are really on trend, I think during the 1:05:13.600 --> 1:05:16.240 pandemic people got used to that, and and the cocktails 1:05:16.280 --> 1:05:17.680 made in front of you in a bar, and you 1:05:17.720 --> 1:05:20.600 feel really special because and wine by the glasses often 1:05:20.640 --> 1:05:23.040 the same price as the cocktail, and it's poured out 1:05:23.040 --> 1:05:24.480 of the bottle because all the work has happened at 1:05:24.480 --> 1:05:26.360 the other end the supply chain. 1:05:26.600 --> 1:05:28.680 All right, so talk to us about the second line. 1:05:28.560 --> 1:05:30.439 The second one. Okay, Now, if you put your nose 1:05:30.480 --> 1:05:32.760 into that. It smells a little bit different and that's 1:05:32.840 --> 1:05:34.520 because it's actually been oak aged. 1:05:35.000 --> 1:05:36.320 Yeah, so this is is different. 1:05:36.400 --> 1:05:38.200 It is different. It's a very different style as well. 1:05:38.240 --> 1:05:42.600 I'm not a big rose person, but these it's nice exact. 1:05:42.680 --> 1:05:44.840 Especially in fact, if you close your eyes you probably 1:05:45.040 --> 1:05:46.960 think this is a fancy white burgundy. 1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:49.840 It's really really stylish. This is from our estate. 1:05:49.960 --> 1:05:52.560 So this is regeneratory farms and it's organic, but it's 1:05:52.600 --> 1:05:55.480 had six months in oak barrels, so it gives a 1:05:55.680 --> 1:05:57.480 very good that's a really good one. 1:05:57.760 --> 1:06:00.640 I always love to talk about the barrels. We've gotten 1:06:00.720 --> 1:06:02.480 kind of an education over the years about it, about 1:06:02.480 --> 1:06:04.480 the importance of them and the difference, and it does 1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:06.240 make it. It's a factor in all of this. 1:06:06.320 --> 1:06:07.120 And what's this one called? 1:06:07.400 --> 1:06:09.560 This is called lar Reserve by domain mirror path. 1:06:09.560 --> 1:06:10.200 It's taking notes. 1:06:10.480 --> 1:06:13.160 Yes, so it's because we called it lar reserve because 1:06:13.160 --> 1:06:15.080 it's in a nature reserve. And we're really this is 1:06:15.200 --> 1:06:19.640 our Regen Regen wine. I'm actually we're certifying Regen and 1:06:20.480 --> 1:06:23.080 this is something that's very interesting. So if you want 1:06:23.120 --> 1:06:24.480 to put organic on the label, you have to be 1:06:24.600 --> 1:06:28.200 certified organic. Right, But now regenerative is becoming more and 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:30.840 more popular, so people want to certify regeneratives. 1:06:30.920 --> 1:06:32.160 This is what we talked about with the folks at 1:06:32.160 --> 1:06:33.760 Common Gram where we talk about this movie kind of 1:06:33.840 --> 1:06:36.680 off air, this documentary, but this idea of like I'm like, well, 1:06:36.720 --> 1:06:38.360 so how do I know when I'm buying something? And 1:06:38.400 --> 1:06:40.720 they're saying that there's increasingly there's a mark, there's a 1:06:40.800 --> 1:06:43.680 demarcation if you will, or no notification if you buy 1:06:43.760 --> 1:06:45.920 some kind of produce or something that's bought that way, 1:06:46.000 --> 1:06:47.320 and so you guys are doing the same thing. 1:06:47.520 --> 1:06:49.560 Yeah, we're doing that, and I think more and more 1:06:49.640 --> 1:06:52.520 growers will do because the supermarkets want to know if 1:06:52.520 --> 1:06:54.960 it's properly farmed regeneratively, if they're going to talk about it. 1:06:55.240 --> 1:06:57.520 But actually that's really I think the supermarket is going 1:06:57.560 --> 1:06:59.440 to get behind regen Now you're going to see in 1:06:59.520 --> 1:07:01.600 the UK, you know some of the big supermarkets are 1:07:01.600 --> 1:07:02.800 already stunch talk about. 1:07:02.800 --> 1:07:04.400 IM gonna say, feels a little bit like super dating, 1:07:04.480 --> 1:07:06.240 not that I've ever done this. It's our speed dating, 1:07:07.200 --> 1:07:10.240 but it's speed it's speed drinking a little bit. But 1:07:10.280 --> 1:07:12.200 you're so kind walking us through it. So Steve and 1:07:12.240 --> 1:07:13.480 we have one work because we want to get to 1:07:13.600 --> 1:07:14.200 this last one. 1:07:14.320 --> 1:07:16.240 This is this is okay, before you take a big 1:07:16.520 --> 1:07:20.520 white smell that. So this is Miraba Riviera gin a. 1:07:22.120 --> 1:07:23.320 Don't chug it, Carrol. 1:07:24.680 --> 1:07:29.600 Chuger anyway, don't you know me? 1:07:31.400 --> 1:07:32.560 Okay, So this is a gin. 1:07:32.760 --> 1:07:35.200 It's a gin made from upcycled grapeskins. 1:07:35.880 --> 1:07:37.480 But is that what gin is usually made of? 1:07:37.800 --> 1:07:41.920 No, no, genusly made from from wheat or corn. It's 1:07:42.360 --> 1:07:44.400 so this is a it's a grain base. Interesting and 1:07:44.520 --> 1:07:46.640 this is super smooth. So being made of grapes it 1:07:46.720 --> 1:07:49.320 gives it a roundness on the palette. Right, that's forty 1:07:49.360 --> 1:07:52.200 three percent alcohol by volume. That's yet it's so smooth, 1:07:52.480 --> 1:07:54.280 it's we keep a bottle in the freezer just to 1:07:54.360 --> 1:07:57.280 chuck into a martini. We mean, I need to keep. 1:07:57.240 --> 1:07:58.560 Just a bottle in the freezer. 1:08:00.280 --> 1:08:01.520 Under your desk that we can use. 1:08:01.680 --> 1:08:04.480 So do you plan to expand out the line more? 1:08:04.720 --> 1:08:07.680 Well, it seems like a lot. Yeah, no, it's a lot. 1:08:08.120 --> 1:08:11.640 I keep saying, no more MPD, but then the new 1:08:11.680 --> 1:08:15.120 product okay, sorry, but then then the market's changed. The 1:08:15.360 --> 1:08:18.479 young people who have going no and low out is 1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:19.679 the big growth category. 1:08:19.800 --> 1:08:22.040 This one is normally no alcohol. 1:08:22.360 --> 1:08:24.360 Yeah, I mean I'll take a sip of wine or two. 1:08:24.520 --> 1:08:26.240 But it's like as I've gotten older, I mean, I 1:08:26.280 --> 1:08:27.640 think a lot of my friends have done this. We 1:08:27.720 --> 1:08:31.200 just drink a lot less. Yeah, And that's that's the 1:08:31.320 --> 1:08:32.799 challenge I think for the industry. 1:08:32.960 --> 1:08:34.439 It is the young un drinking as much. 1:08:34.520 --> 1:08:36.719 The older people are taking more care of their health. 1:08:38.160 --> 1:08:40.120 The who came out last year and said there's no 1:08:40.320 --> 1:08:42.760 safe amount of alcohol. Oh my gosh, guys, come on. 1:08:42.880 --> 1:08:43.639 They're just wrong. 1:08:44.640 --> 1:08:46.880 Yeah, you know what they need. They need to drink. 1:08:47.439 --> 1:08:48.200 They need to drink. 1:08:48.680 --> 1:08:50.400 No, but it's interesting. Are you limited though we've only 1:08:50.439 --> 1:08:52.080 got about thirty seconds off? Are you limited by your 1:08:52.200 --> 1:08:54.439 land size of how much variety you can do? 1:08:54.600 --> 1:08:54.720 Or no? 1:08:55.080 --> 1:08:57.040 No, because we're working with so many growers from around 1:08:57.040 --> 1:08:58.960 the region, so our win a state represents a small 1:08:59.000 --> 1:08:59.560 part of what we do. 1:09:00.240 --> 1:09:02.000 So now we can scale this business. 1:09:01.840 --> 1:09:03.280 All right, Steve. And I'm just going to say it, 1:09:04.040 --> 1:09:05.679 you're kind of one of our favorite kind of guests, 1:09:06.520 --> 1:09:09.479 so you can go back anytime. No, but this has 1:09:09.520 --> 1:09:13.040 been really fun and if we find our way in Provence, 1:09:13.200 --> 1:09:14.320 I'm going to come knock on your door. 1:09:14.640 --> 1:09:16.439 You must do that, Okay, just more than let's do 1:09:16.520 --> 1:09:17.920 a remote. We'll do a remote from you. 1:09:18.600 --> 1:09:19.679 That would be really lovely. 1:09:19.760 --> 1:09:22.719 I'm Stephen, thank you, so appreciate it. Stephen Kronk, founder 1:09:22.800 --> 1:09:26.160 and CEO of Maizon Mirabeau, joining us here in the studio. 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:27.400 This has been. 1:09:30.560 --> 1:09:34.360 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 1:09:34.520 --> 1:09:37.320 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 1:09:37.439 --> 1:09:40.360 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You 1:09:40.439 --> 1:09:43.639 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 1:09:43.760 --> 1:09:47.519 New York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 1:09:48.840 --> 1:09:51.679 She spent more than twenty five years as a CIA officer, 1:09:51.800 --> 1:09:54.800 working as an undercover spot all over the world, from 1:09:54.920 --> 1:09:58.200 Moscow during the Cold War, to Pakistan, Hong Kong, and 1:09:58.520 --> 1:09:59.120 a lot more. 1:09:59.400 --> 1:10:02.080 She also did disguises for agents in the field, and 1:10:02.240 --> 1:10:04.560 was the chief of Disguise in the CIA's Office of 1:10:04.640 --> 1:10:08.000 Technical Service, going as far as disguising herself while meeting 1:10:08.120 --> 1:10:11.000 then President George H. W. Bush in the Oval Office. 1:10:11.520 --> 1:10:13.639 This was, of course, to show off the new disguise 1:10:13.680 --> 1:10:16.200 capabilities of the CIA. She wasn't trying to do anything, 1:10:16.280 --> 1:10:19.560 you know, no like seek into the White House or 1:10:19.640 --> 1:10:20.519 she did fool him. 1:10:20.600 --> 1:10:21.120 Kind of wild. 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:23.880 This is just one of the stories John Amandez features 1:10:23.920 --> 1:10:26.679 in her new book in True Face, a woman's life 1:10:26.720 --> 1:10:30.040 in the CIA Unmasked. And yes, we had to start 1:10:30.080 --> 1:10:33.599 with how she did once full former President George Bush. 1:10:34.200 --> 1:10:36.519 We had been working for years to come up with 1:10:36.680 --> 1:10:40.439 a totally animated mask, a mask that would actually work, 1:10:40.720 --> 1:10:43.880 that would you could talk, laugh, you could smile. And 1:10:44.240 --> 1:10:46.600 we got there and the very first mask that was 1:10:46.640 --> 1:10:48.760 made was an African American man and it was made 1:10:48.840 --> 1:10:53.439 for me to demonstrate to various people. And it was good. 1:10:53.960 --> 1:10:56.080 So I took it to my office director and he 1:10:56.240 --> 1:10:57.880 loved it, and he said, we're going to take it 1:10:57.960 --> 1:11:00.880 to the Director of CIA, Bill Webster, and he loved it. 1:11:00.920 --> 1:11:02.519 And he said, we're going to the White House. And 1:11:02.640 --> 1:11:06.160 I said, I don't know if the Secret Service is 1:11:06.200 --> 1:11:09.000 going to let me through because I look good, but 1:11:09.160 --> 1:11:11.360 I don't sound like a man. I don't walk like 1:11:11.439 --> 1:11:14.000 a man. So we did another one. I turned into 1:11:14.080 --> 1:11:18.160 another quite different looking woman. We went to the White House. 1:11:18.200 --> 1:11:22.320 We went for the morning meeting, Brent Scowcroft, Bob Gates, Johnson. 1:11:22.439 --> 1:11:24.560 U knew it was a good crowd. It was a 1:11:24.680 --> 1:11:28.439 quality crowd, and I was the first one that morning 1:11:28.479 --> 1:11:32.479 to brief the president. He had been director of the 1:11:32.520 --> 1:11:35.840 CIA previously in another light, and I had a handful 1:11:35.880 --> 1:11:38.439 of pictures of him in disguise, which was kind of 1:11:38.520 --> 1:11:42.400 to relax everybody, and he's laughing and pictures. I said, so, 1:11:42.439 --> 1:11:45.880 I'm going to show you the latest, greatest, best thing 1:11:45.960 --> 1:11:48.000 we've got. And I said, I'll take it off. And 1:11:48.120 --> 1:11:50.680 I started, and he said, well, well, no, don't take 1:11:50.720 --> 1:11:52.680 it off. Whatever it is, don't take it off. And 1:11:52.800 --> 1:11:55.560 he walked out around my chair and he's looking and 1:11:55.680 --> 1:11:58.439 he's peering, and he's trying to figure out a fake 1:11:58.600 --> 1:12:00.519 knows he didn't know what I had on that He 1:12:00.600 --> 1:12:03.920 sat down, he said, okay, took off my mask and 1:12:04.080 --> 1:12:05.640 held it up so that he could see. It was 1:12:06.080 --> 1:12:07.240 light as a feather. It was. 1:12:07.520 --> 1:12:09.040 It was the reveals. 1:12:09.439 --> 1:12:10.240 Hey, beautiful. 1:12:10.400 --> 1:12:12.519 But I'm just curious how much If masks were that 1:12:12.640 --> 1:12:14.920 good in the late nineteen eighties, early nineteen nineties when 1:12:14.960 --> 1:12:17.479 you did this, how much better is the technology now? 1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:20.559 Well? Isn't that a good question? Because for many, many 1:12:20.640 --> 1:12:25.360 years I never talked about masks. They were considered truly classified. 1:12:25.840 --> 1:12:29.200 And then it changed and we can discuss masks. I'm 1:12:29.280 --> 1:12:33.040 not really sure how that worked. It makes me think 1:12:33.120 --> 1:12:35.280 that they are no longer classified, or they wouldn't let 1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:37.280 me talk about them, And that makes me think that 1:12:37.360 --> 1:12:39.120 we know we no longer use them. 1:12:39.160 --> 1:12:40.799 Why do you think that would be at least. 1:12:40.680 --> 1:12:43.200 We don't use the same thing that we were using. 1:12:43.280 --> 1:12:44.680 Then, Okay, so I don't know. 1:12:45.280 --> 1:12:47.519 Let's say we don't use them anymore. Why wouldn't we 1:12:47.640 --> 1:12:49.800 use them anymore? Is it because of biometrics and they've 1:12:49.840 --> 1:12:50.439 just gotten so good? 1:12:50.479 --> 1:12:54.120 You take me because because of cyber because of the 1:12:54.240 --> 1:12:59.759 incredible technological surveillance that's out there now, this ubiquitous technical 1:13:00.040 --> 1:13:05.240 of ailance everywhere all the time. Different materials act react 1:13:05.280 --> 1:13:09.120 differently to different light sources. So under IR it might 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:12.320 look good. Under ultra violet it might look like a dandelion. 1:13:12.400 --> 1:13:14.880 You don't know. I don't know, but the fact that 1:13:15.040 --> 1:13:17.240 I can talk about them tells me that they are 1:13:17.320 --> 1:13:18.360 no longer perhaps. 1:13:18.800 --> 1:13:21.559 How did you get your book passed the folks who 1:13:21.640 --> 1:13:24.560 I don't want to call them censors, but the approval process. 1:13:24.479 --> 1:13:25.960 The publication review board? 1:13:26.439 --> 1:13:27.800 Yeah, how'd you get your book passed? 1:13:27.800 --> 1:13:27.920 Them? 1:13:28.360 --> 1:13:28.479 Well? 1:13:28.560 --> 1:13:31.160 You cross the fingers on both of your hands. You 1:13:31.280 --> 1:13:34.639 remind them that by statute it should be a thirty 1:13:34.720 --> 1:13:37.519 day review. It's never a thirty day review. And you 1:13:37.680 --> 1:13:40.600 just kind of distract yourself because it can take it 1:13:40.640 --> 1:13:42.800 could take six months for them to finish, you know, 1:13:43.000 --> 1:13:45.320 looking at it and they come back and they say, 1:13:45.960 --> 1:13:48.840 there are some things here that are still classified, and 1:13:48.920 --> 1:13:51.640 we're asking you to take them out. And this is 1:13:51.680 --> 1:13:53.720 our fifth book. We take them out. We don't want 1:13:53.800 --> 1:13:55.840 to put classified material in our books. 1:13:56.080 --> 1:13:58.439 Donna. I think when we think CIA or woman working 1:13:58.479 --> 1:14:00.479 in CIA, and I know it's not apple to apples, 1:14:00.520 --> 1:14:02.320 but for me, I'm like, is it homeland? Is it 1:14:02.439 --> 1:14:05.439 like Homeland? Like you know, you're running and you've got guns, 1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:07.080 and you've got money and you've got all this, Like 1:14:07.760 --> 1:14:08.880 what is it really like? 1:14:10.000 --> 1:14:13.400 Well, a, it was. It was hard if you wanted 1:14:13.439 --> 1:14:15.880 to be in the operational piece of it. And there 1:14:15.880 --> 1:14:19.200 were other parts of CIA where women had made good inroads. 1:14:19.840 --> 1:14:24.120 The analytical part of it that women did wonderfully as 1:14:24.200 --> 1:14:27.560 analysts science and technology. If you had a degree in 1:14:27.640 --> 1:14:30.760 chemistry or physics or optics or whatever, we would hire you. 1:14:30.840 --> 1:14:31.640 We would hire you at a. 1:14:31.640 --> 1:14:33.840 Lower grade than the men, but we would bring you 1:14:33.960 --> 1:14:39.200 in but in operations. It was that's overseas, that's feet 1:14:39.240 --> 1:14:43.040 on the ground, that's meeting with the foreign targets or 1:14:43.120 --> 1:14:45.720 the foreign assets if they agree to work with US, 1:14:46.280 --> 1:14:49.920 people who are truly often risking their lives to work 1:14:49.960 --> 1:14:54.479 for American intelligence. And the men just had this firmly 1:14:54.640 --> 1:14:59.400 fixed idea that those people didn't want to be working 1:14:59.479 --> 1:15:04.400 with women, that they wouldn't that in many cultures, women 1:15:05.080 --> 1:15:08.720 have no credibility, that have no value, and they said, 1:15:08.760 --> 1:15:10.960 we can't, we can't put you out in the middle 1:15:10.960 --> 1:15:13.599 of that. It was this kind of big, it was vague, 1:15:14.040 --> 1:15:16.960 sort of menacing. It was like, bs, is that's not 1:15:17.880 --> 1:15:21.400 true these men It's always men. It was always men. 1:15:21.520 --> 1:15:23.799 These men are risking their lives. 1:15:24.120 --> 1:15:26.880 What would you say women bring to the table that 1:15:27.000 --> 1:15:28.759 men don't in this kind of situation. 1:15:29.320 --> 1:15:32.960 Well, in that scenario, women have an empathy that I 1:15:33.080 --> 1:15:36.320 think men don't necessarily carry around in their hip pocket. 1:15:36.800 --> 1:15:41.160 The men are interested in training this foreigner in whatever 1:15:41.240 --> 1:15:43.360 the technology is that they're going to report to us, 1:15:44.000 --> 1:15:48.320 and they're very focused on the mechanics of that thing. Well, 1:15:48.360 --> 1:15:51.519 I can do the mechanics as well, but I can 1:15:51.680 --> 1:15:55.040 also I don't hold their hand, but I can reassure them, 1:15:55.160 --> 1:15:58.000 I can talk to them. There's a soft power that 1:15:58.200 --> 1:16:03.040 women can bring to these narios that has real value, 1:16:03.439 --> 1:16:07.519 and I discovered over time it has really good value. 1:16:07.920 --> 1:16:11.160 I found myself a couple of times retraining people. You know, 1:16:11.240 --> 1:16:15.160 if I'm showing someone how this gadget works, and if 1:16:15.240 --> 1:16:18.439 he doesn't get it right away, he has no problem 1:16:18.600 --> 1:16:21.840 saying to me, a woman, can we run through that again, 1:16:22.120 --> 1:16:24.800 Whereas if it's one of my male colleagues doing the 1:16:24.880 --> 1:16:28.760 same training, he gets done, he says got it. The 1:16:28.800 --> 1:16:31.639 guy is going to say, yeah, I got interesting. Maybe 1:16:31.680 --> 1:16:32.280 he didn't get. 1:16:32.200 --> 1:16:34.679 It, Tona, I am still I want to go back 1:16:34.720 --> 1:16:39.360 to how much of you know your career in the CIA, 1:16:39.520 --> 1:16:42.760 where you you know, in an office or meeting with 1:16:43.240 --> 1:16:47.320 you know, an agent or a source or something. I mean, 1:16:47.360 --> 1:16:50.479 were there moments where you really were in danger? I'm 1:16:50.520 --> 1:16:52.880 just curious about that because I think I hear CIA, 1:16:53.000 --> 1:16:55.320 and I know there's different levels, but I'm just curious 1:16:55.320 --> 1:16:59.519 about your own, since you were in some pretty serious spots. 1:17:00.040 --> 1:17:04.600 I was in some situations that were there were certainly uncomfortable. 1:17:04.800 --> 1:17:08.080 I was in some situations that I think you would 1:17:08.080 --> 1:17:12.400 call dangerous. Not all the time. It didn't happen frequently, 1:17:12.720 --> 1:17:15.639 but when it happened, I had had so much training 1:17:15.760 --> 1:17:18.600 that I had a very good sense of what I 1:17:18.720 --> 1:17:21.519 ought to do. Not that it would always work, but 1:17:22.280 --> 1:17:25.599 you know what I should try. That's a very vague 1:17:25.720 --> 1:17:30.120 answer to a kind of general question. There was some 1:17:30.280 --> 1:17:32.760 danger there, mostly there was not. 1:17:33.280 --> 1:17:36.840 Mostly there was not. Mostly well, But it's so interesting 1:17:36.840 --> 1:17:39.200 because I think you guys, you know, when we talk 1:17:39.240 --> 1:17:41.280 to someone like you, we get a peek into what 1:17:41.439 --> 1:17:44.080 the CIA is like and what goes on behind the scenes. 1:17:44.080 --> 1:17:49.720 And there's layers right in terms of gathering, deciphering, and 1:17:50.320 --> 1:17:51.960 you know, utilizing intelligence. 1:17:52.640 --> 1:17:55.160 Yeah, I mean, the whole job is to bring back 1:17:55.240 --> 1:17:59.919 the information to American policymakers so they could make smart decisions, 1:18:00.479 --> 1:18:04.240 information on the plans and intentions of our enemies. Now, 1:18:04.280 --> 1:18:07.240 if you just glance around the world right now and 1:18:07.439 --> 1:18:10.720 wonder what is putin planning, what are the Chinese going 1:18:10.800 --> 1:18:14.719 to do next? What about those Koreans with their nuclear missiles, 1:18:16.200 --> 1:18:20.360 you can imagine the kind of intelligence that our policymakers 1:18:20.479 --> 1:18:23.040 wanted and needed. Our job was to go find it, 1:18:23.160 --> 1:18:26.800 to find people who were conduits to that information, who 1:18:26.840 --> 1:18:29.400 could get it for us. We had all kinds of 1:18:29.520 --> 1:18:32.479 technology that we used. We had all kinds of tools 1:18:32.520 --> 1:18:35.320 that we could train them in. We had methods of 1:18:35.439 --> 1:18:38.960 their communicating that information to us where we didn't have 1:18:39.040 --> 1:18:41.840 to meet face to face, which would really put them 1:18:41.920 --> 1:18:45.880 in danger. Typically, if we worried about danger, we worried 1:18:45.880 --> 1:18:48.439 about our foreign assets. They were the ones who were 1:18:49.000 --> 1:18:52.960 sometimes risking everything to work for us for a variety 1:18:53.040 --> 1:18:56.960 of reasons. It wasn't always money. They weren't always asking 1:18:57.080 --> 1:18:59.800 to be paid. A lot of them would work for 1:18:59.920 --> 1:19:02.200 us us just for the promise that we would get 1:19:02.240 --> 1:19:05.920 their kids out of their country, get them to the West, 1:19:06.240 --> 1:19:10.360 get them educated over a year. The motivators were always interesting, 1:19:10.880 --> 1:19:14.400 but whatever was involved to get the information was what 1:19:14.600 --> 1:19:16.200 we were about. 1:19:17.640 --> 1:19:20.000 JOHNA, can you talk to us a little bit about Argo, 1:19:20.120 --> 1:19:23.680 because as I was doing research about you, I was 1:19:23.760 --> 1:19:26.200 struck that you co wrote along with your late husband 1:19:26.640 --> 1:19:31.559 Antonio Mendez, a book about the Well the hostage christ 1:19:31.960 --> 1:19:35.000 and Caper. Yeah, what exactly happened in nineteen seventy nine 1:19:35.080 --> 1:19:38.960 nineteen eighty and Iran and your late husband's role, who, 1:19:39.040 --> 1:19:41.320 by the way, was he was portrayed by Ben Affleck 1:19:41.360 --> 1:19:41.840 in the film. 1:19:42.760 --> 1:19:45.200 Yes, he was take us back. I mean, I don't 1:19:45.240 --> 1:19:47.000 know what you were doing. 1:19:46.840 --> 1:19:48.439 At that time, but what can you tell us about 1:19:49.120 --> 1:19:50.639 that whole experience, that whole event. 1:19:51.280 --> 1:19:54.200 I had nothing to do with Argo when it happened. 1:19:54.920 --> 1:19:59.160 I was working in the same office. But because compartmentation 1:19:59.320 --> 1:20:02.280 is what it is, I didn't even know that it 1:20:02.400 --> 1:20:02.960 had happened. 1:20:03.040 --> 1:20:03.280 Wow. 1:20:03.520 --> 1:20:04.519 Wow, that says a lot right. 1:20:04.880 --> 1:20:08.640 They started making that movie nineteen years later, which, just 1:20:08.720 --> 1:20:11.439 to point it out, Tony kept that secret for nineteen 1:20:11.520 --> 1:20:15.479 years and he never intended to tell that story. George Tennant, 1:20:15.640 --> 1:20:19.080 the head of CIA, directed him to tell the story 1:20:19.160 --> 1:20:21.600 to the New York Times. It was a moment in 1:20:21.840 --> 1:20:24.800 history when it was quiet. People were questioning did we 1:20:24.920 --> 1:20:27.760 even need a CIA? And George Tenant, I think very 1:20:28.160 --> 1:20:31.880 wisely decided to tell one good story of showing the 1:20:32.000 --> 1:20:34.800 value of the organization. Tony was going to go to 1:20:34.880 --> 1:20:39.360 his grave with that story. It was remarkable when we 1:20:39.520 --> 1:20:41.600 got the call to the middle of the night that 1:20:41.760 --> 1:20:44.120 said George Clooney's going to buy the story, the rights 1:20:44.160 --> 1:20:47.639 to the story. The next morning over coffee, Tony said, 1:20:47.680 --> 1:20:49.800 you know what that means. It means we got to 1:20:49.800 --> 1:20:52.960 write the book because they'll move the story around, they'll 1:20:53.040 --> 1:20:55.479 change things a little bit. It won't be exactly one 1:20:55.560 --> 1:20:56.080 hundred percent. 1:20:56.760 --> 1:20:57.519 And so we did that. 1:20:57.720 --> 1:21:00.240 We wrote the book, they wrote the script, and it's 1:21:00.320 --> 1:21:03.800 kind of interesting to compare them. The heart of the 1:21:03.880 --> 1:21:07.280 story is certainly there, but small things like Tony was 1:21:07.360 --> 1:21:10.160 never separated from his first wife. Tony had three kids, 1:21:10.280 --> 1:21:12.679 not one, so his other two kids are still angry 1:21:12.720 --> 1:21:14.599 about that because they didn't get to be in the movie. 1:21:15.200 --> 1:21:18.040 Nobody chased an airplane down a runway in a jeep 1:21:18.120 --> 1:21:20.599 with a gun. They added that, or just the little 1:21:20.640 --> 1:21:22.960 floorish at the end the story. In the middle of 1:21:23.320 --> 1:21:26.800 going in and getting those six American diplomats and bringing 1:21:26.840 --> 1:21:30.200 them out, that's what happened. And you know, we were 1:21:30.280 --> 1:21:32.519 in touch with and I'm still in touch with all 1:21:32.560 --> 1:21:34.920 of them. We call them the house guests. They still 1:21:34.960 --> 1:21:36.439 every once in a while, sinen, they comes up. We 1:21:36.520 --> 1:21:39.799 write notes back and forth. Who's doing what. Tony probably 1:21:39.880 --> 1:21:43.160 saved their lives, and it was it was just a moment. 1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:46.040 It was one when he did it. It was just 1:21:46.520 --> 1:21:50.320 another operation, and it turned out to me so. 1:21:50.439 --> 1:21:53.000 Much more unbelievable. Did you ever get to go to 1:21:53.080 --> 1:21:54.800 the set mee clooney pit. 1:21:54.960 --> 1:21:58.519 Yes, yes, what was that like the opening scene where 1:21:58.560 --> 1:22:01.600 they're in the embassy and trying to shred those documents 1:22:01.640 --> 1:22:06.120 and things that took place at an abandoned VA hospital 1:22:06.240 --> 1:22:09.040 outside of la I mean, that's how they do it. 1:22:09.200 --> 1:22:11.960 And when we drove up to that we drove up 1:22:12.000 --> 1:22:15.160 to that hospital, everybody was outside having a cigarette break. 1:22:15.320 --> 1:22:17.839 They were the actors, not the real people. The actors, 1:22:18.360 --> 1:22:21.800 but they were so closely modeled after the real people 1:22:21.920 --> 1:22:25.080 that Tony said, there, you know, he called them out 1:22:25.120 --> 1:22:28.080 one by one. There's Jessica, there's You knew who they 1:22:28.120 --> 1:22:30.559 were just from their clothes and their makeup, in their hair. 1:22:30.840 --> 1:22:31.320 It was cool. 1:22:31.680 --> 1:22:33.680 What do you hope someone who reads your book kind 1:22:33.720 --> 1:22:35.400 of takes away and just quickly forgive me. 1:22:35.800 --> 1:22:38.240 I hope it's a different look inside of the CIA. 1:22:38.400 --> 1:22:40.800 It tells you day to day what you might be doing, 1:22:40.880 --> 1:22:43.760 what kinds of operations you were supporting, what the pressures were, 1:22:43.880 --> 1:22:47.679 what the dangers were. It's a very realistic look from 1:22:47.800 --> 1:22:50.840 a woman's point of view doing the work. What was 1:22:50.880 --> 1:22:53.600 it like and what was it worth. It's not just 1:22:53.720 --> 1:22:55.679 for when a lot of men are going to enjoy 1:22:55.760 --> 1:22:56.400 reading this book. 1:22:56.640 --> 1:22:59.720 Well, we appreciate getting a peek into your life and 1:22:59.760 --> 1:23:02.479 your career and peek into the CIA. I'm Johnah. 1:23:02.479 --> 1:23:03.160 Thank you so much. 1:23:03.840 --> 1:23:06.639 John Amendez, former CIA officer. Her new book is called 1:23:06.760 --> 1:23:10.000 In True Face, A Woman's Life in the CIA Unmasked, 1:23:10.320 --> 1:23:12.920 and she was joining us there from Western Virginia. You're 1:23:12.960 --> 1:23:15.719 listening and watching Bloomberg Business Week. Carol Master, Tim Stanevik. 1:23:16.000 --> 1:23:16.760 This is Bloomberg. 1:23:20.280 --> 1:23:23.479 This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast of a little 1:23:23.520 --> 1:23:27.080 on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. 1:23:27.560 --> 1:23:30.840 Listen live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern 1:23:31.040 --> 1:23:34.400 on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and 1:23:34.520 --> 1:23:37.240 the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live 1:23:37.360 --> 1:23:41.240 every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg journalone