1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:23,196 Speaker 1: Pushing. Hey, Khalil, Hey, hey. The other day, my brother Jake, 2 00:00:23,436 --> 00:00:26,396 Speaker 1: he stopped buying and while he was standing there, I 3 00:00:26,556 --> 00:00:31,636 Speaker 1: secretly dialed his cell phone, okay, secretly. All right, that's intriguing. 4 00:00:31,956 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: So what happened? Hello? Oh man? You know what that is? Right? Yeah, 5 00:00:45,836 --> 00:00:48,836 Speaker 1: that's the theme song to Sanford and Son. You have 6 00:00:48,996 --> 00:00:52,996 Speaker 1: Quincy Jones. It's the second greatest theme song to a 7 00:00:53,036 --> 00:00:56,716 Speaker 1: show ever. Really, wow? Yeah, like ever, like of all 8 00:00:56,796 --> 00:01:01,316 Speaker 1: theme songs across all television history. I didn't say just television, 9 00:01:01,356 --> 00:01:04,316 Speaker 1: any show, okay, because you know what the best theme 10 00:01:04,356 --> 00:01:10,996 Speaker 1: song is not not moving on up you little lily man. 11 00:01:12,436 --> 00:01:18,316 Speaker 1: Of course some of my best right O? Man? All right, 12 00:01:18,356 --> 00:01:20,796 Speaker 1: So so my brother that's his cell phone ring tone. 13 00:01:20,836 --> 00:01:22,676 Speaker 1: I love it, and of course, of course I had 14 00:01:22,676 --> 00:01:24,596 Speaker 1: to ask him about it. Why do you have that 15 00:01:24,636 --> 00:01:28,716 Speaker 1: as your ring tone? Well? That is my favorite television 16 00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:33,116 Speaker 1: show of all time. I think that uh Red Fox 17 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:37,556 Speaker 1: is the greatest American comedian. Wow, he doesn't, he doesn't. 18 00:01:37,596 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 1: He speaks in absolutes, and I love that. That's my 19 00:01:40,156 --> 00:01:42,876 Speaker 1: brother's right. This, this sparks what I think is going 20 00:01:42,916 --> 00:01:46,996 Speaker 1: to be our episode today that I want to talk 21 00:01:47,036 --> 00:01:50,156 Speaker 1: to you about Samford and Son, and I want to 22 00:01:50,196 --> 00:01:54,316 Speaker 1: talk about it's greatness and all the way Jake is saying, okay, uh, well, 23 00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:56,596 Speaker 1: what I really want to talk to you about is 24 00:01:56,636 --> 00:01:59,876 Speaker 1: how this TV show from the nineteen seventies really does 25 00:01:59,876 --> 00:02:03,836 Speaker 1: the same thing that we always do on this podcast, 26 00:02:05,236 --> 00:02:07,996 Speaker 1: just you know, like, how does it reveal the absurdities 27 00:02:08,036 --> 00:02:11,636 Speaker 1: and challenges of race in America today? Okay, all right, 28 00:02:11,676 --> 00:02:15,556 Speaker 1: so you're saying that for Sandford and Son, it was 29 00:02:15,596 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 1: showing us something about the society we're living in when 30 00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 1: that show started, and it's still mad relevant even fifty 31 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:25,596 Speaker 1: years later. Well, I love we're going to talk about 32 00:02:25,596 --> 00:02:28,876 Speaker 1: Sanford and Son because I want to talk about the Jeffersons, 33 00:02:29,356 --> 00:02:33,836 Speaker 1: which which could not be more opposite to Sandford and Son. 34 00:02:34,156 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 1: A story set in a junkyard for a father and son, 35 00:02:37,956 --> 00:02:40,596 Speaker 1: and my story is set in an Upper east Side 36 00:02:40,716 --> 00:02:45,556 Speaker 1: luxury apartment of a striving black family with their son Lionel, 37 00:02:45,756 --> 00:02:49,916 Speaker 1: and the absurdities of their experience as literal newcomers on 38 00:02:49,956 --> 00:02:53,476 Speaker 1: the block of wealth and power or some kind of 39 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:57,236 Speaker 1: power in America in the nineteen seventies. Okay, okay, So 40 00:02:57,276 --> 00:02:59,156 Speaker 1: this is a special episode of some of my best 41 00:02:59,156 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 1: friends are. We're talking about old TV shows, but we're 42 00:03:02,396 --> 00:03:06,156 Speaker 1: really talking about how they're timeless and how they're they're 43 00:03:06,156 --> 00:03:09,036 Speaker 1: relevant to today. And listen, man, this is going to 44 00:03:09,276 --> 00:03:12,156 Speaker 1: be fun. This is gonna be a lot of fun listeners. 45 00:03:12,196 --> 00:03:14,836 Speaker 1: One more thing, I want to give a warning. The 46 00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 1: TV shows that we discussed us some strong racial language, 47 00:03:18,436 --> 00:03:29,996 Speaker 1: including the use of the N word. All Right, Khalil, 48 00:03:30,036 --> 00:03:32,716 Speaker 1: all Right. Sandford and Son, Okay, Sanford Insen goes on 49 00:03:32,796 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 1: the air in nineteen seventy two and it runs for 50 00:03:35,196 --> 00:03:38,156 Speaker 1: six seasons on NBC. And I know you know the show, 51 00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:40,476 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna give you a little refresher on what 52 00:03:40,516 --> 00:03:42,156 Speaker 1: it's about. But I haven't seen the show on a 53 00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 1: long time, so it wasn't my homework. And I just 54 00:03:44,636 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 1: have to say I didn't realize it was. It premiered 55 00:03:47,396 --> 00:03:51,196 Speaker 1: my birth year in nineteen seventy two. Wow. So here's 56 00:03:51,196 --> 00:03:54,996 Speaker 1: the premise. Okay, there's a father and son adult son. 57 00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:57,916 Speaker 1: They own a junkyard, which you know, like a salvage 58 00:03:57,956 --> 00:04:02,396 Speaker 1: business and antique business in Watts in south central Los Angeles. 59 00:04:02,796 --> 00:04:05,716 Speaker 1: All Right, And the main character's name is Fred Sandford. 60 00:04:05,956 --> 00:04:08,916 Speaker 1: His son is named Lamont. Fred Sandford is played by 61 00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:12,156 Speaker 1: the comedian Red fast Right and lamont is played by 62 00:04:12,196 --> 00:04:15,236 Speaker 1: Demand Wilson. Okay, so a lot of the show is 63 00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:17,996 Speaker 1: just this kind of situational humor of the father and 64 00:04:18,036 --> 00:04:22,516 Speaker 1: son dynamic. Fred's a widower, he is he doesn't want 65 00:04:22,556 --> 00:04:24,276 Speaker 1: his son to move out. He wants him to keep 66 00:04:24,276 --> 00:04:26,796 Speaker 1: on living with him. And lamonton this is a funny 67 00:04:26,836 --> 00:04:29,476 Speaker 1: kind of way that humor works. Is kind of miserable, 68 00:04:29,716 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 1: you know, like miserable because he wants to get away 69 00:04:32,076 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 1: from his pops. He doesn't want to have anything to 70 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:35,516 Speaker 1: do with the family business. What is it. He just 71 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:37,356 Speaker 1: feels like he feels a lot of resentment and he 72 00:04:37,396 --> 00:04:39,636 Speaker 1: feels like a kind of failure and so so listen 73 00:04:39,676 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 1: to this. This is a clip from the first episode. 74 00:04:41,876 --> 00:04:45,116 Speaker 1: I just can't stand being poor at this poor you 75 00:04:45,196 --> 00:04:48,196 Speaker 1: think this is poor? Lisa Chia was seven us in 76 00:04:48,236 --> 00:04:52,716 Speaker 1: the family. Seven be slept in the same room, same bed, 77 00:04:53,116 --> 00:04:59,196 Speaker 1: same underwear. That's cool. When I was a young stout 78 00:04:59,196 --> 00:05:02,436 Speaker 1: war one pep tissues five years warm out up to 79 00:05:02,516 --> 00:05:08,076 Speaker 1: the name on the ankle, don't didn't shoot the head 80 00:05:08,116 --> 00:05:17,436 Speaker 1: called kids. I won't mind the lastick yo yo? I mean, so, 81 00:05:17,836 --> 00:05:21,196 Speaker 1: what what is so powerful? And wonderful about that is 82 00:05:21,236 --> 00:05:24,876 Speaker 1: that you can hear Red Fox just doing stand up right, 83 00:05:24,956 --> 00:05:27,676 Speaker 1: Like the show is just a set piece for a 84 00:05:27,756 --> 00:05:32,076 Speaker 1: riff that that he's probably done many times before. Yeah, totally, totally. 85 00:05:32,116 --> 00:05:35,316 Speaker 1: And you know, I'll just take a step back because 86 00:05:35,796 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 1: like a lot of American sitcoms, it's based on a 87 00:05:38,676 --> 00:05:42,676 Speaker 1: British sitcom and also like a lot of American sitcoms, 88 00:05:43,156 --> 00:05:47,156 Speaker 1: it's written and produced by Jewish people. All right, all right, 89 00:05:47,636 --> 00:05:50,556 Speaker 1: but just like you said, the thing that that that 90 00:05:50,676 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 1: changes it is like the secret sauce is Red Fox 91 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:57,956 Speaker 1: the comedian. He's a comic genius. U. He is just 92 00:05:58,116 --> 00:06:00,196 Speaker 1: you know, even when the show comes on in the 93 00:06:00,196 --> 00:06:03,996 Speaker 1: air in nineteen seventy two, he is a wildly successful comic. Okay, 94 00:06:03,996 --> 00:06:06,956 Speaker 1: so his reputation is already he's already a superstar. He's 95 00:06:06,956 --> 00:06:09,556 Speaker 1: like the Eddie Murphy of his generation. Yeah, you know, 96 00:06:09,676 --> 00:06:12,436 Speaker 1: and so much, so much of the comedy. It's not 97 00:06:12,476 --> 00:06:15,636 Speaker 1: the writing of the jokes, it's his delivery. It's it's 98 00:06:15,676 --> 00:06:19,476 Speaker 1: the way his facial expressions, his sight gags, the way 99 00:06:19,516 --> 00:06:22,156 Speaker 1: he walks, the way he moves. Going back to what 100 00:06:22,196 --> 00:06:24,676 Speaker 1: my brother says, you know, my brother actually has studied 101 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 1: Red Fox. Jake says that Red Fox is like a 102 00:06:27,316 --> 00:06:32,156 Speaker 1: jazz musician, improvising with each measure like and and and 103 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:34,236 Speaker 1: and I'll just give you an example. So, like I'm 104 00:06:34,276 --> 00:06:36,396 Speaker 1: going to play another clip for you right here. It's 105 00:06:36,396 --> 00:06:39,676 Speaker 1: the start of another episode. Fred says it's his birthday. 106 00:06:39,676 --> 00:06:42,476 Speaker 1: He's like singing happy and so first for someone who 107 00:06:42,516 --> 00:06:44,716 Speaker 1: may never have seen Fred Stanford. And I was just 108 00:06:44,756 --> 00:06:47,636 Speaker 1: about to say, he just he just turned sixty four. 109 00:06:48,436 --> 00:06:51,876 Speaker 1: And so so he's gonna call the Social Security Office 110 00:06:51,876 --> 00:06:55,396 Speaker 1: because it's check start when his check start coming in 111 00:06:56,156 --> 00:06:59,836 Speaker 1: time to get paid. Listen to that this recording does 112 00:06:59,876 --> 00:07:03,396 Speaker 1: not repeat, So please wait until a line is free. 113 00:07:04,036 --> 00:07:09,116 Speaker 1: And I wouldn't have to wait about it. White, That's 114 00:07:09,116 --> 00:07:14,276 Speaker 1: like one of the funniest jokes ever. That's just one 115 00:07:14,316 --> 00:07:17,116 Speaker 1: of them. And his delivery is deadpan delivery. But man, 116 00:07:17,156 --> 00:07:19,116 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you the set up to this joke. 117 00:07:19,596 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 1: There's like two or three minutes of him just like 118 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:25,396 Speaker 1: looking for his glasses of you know, looking like crmudgeon 119 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:27,956 Speaker 1: walking over there knowing that the comedy is just emanates 120 00:07:27,956 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 1: from its physical I think it's just physical guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 121 00:07:31,516 --> 00:07:33,476 Speaker 1: When I was preparing for this you know this show 122 00:07:33,516 --> 00:07:36,156 Speaker 1: with you. I watched an episode with Danielle, my wife, 123 00:07:36,436 --> 00:07:38,596 Speaker 1: and in one of the episodes, he's putting on a 124 00:07:38,676 --> 00:07:41,436 Speaker 1: dupei and like for two minutes he's just looking at 125 00:07:41,476 --> 00:07:43,476 Speaker 1: in the in the mirror putting on the dupe. It 126 00:07:43,636 --> 00:07:45,916 Speaker 1: is fall on the floor funny, all right, Like it 127 00:07:45,956 --> 00:07:48,316 Speaker 1: is just it's his facial expression and everything about But 128 00:07:48,356 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 1: the one thing I wanted to say about that delivery 129 00:07:50,756 --> 00:07:52,716 Speaker 1: that I wouldn't have to wait as I if I 130 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:55,836 Speaker 1: was white, is it's both genius in terms of being 131 00:07:55,876 --> 00:08:00,276 Speaker 1: such a simple punchline, but it also contains a little 132 00:08:00,316 --> 00:08:03,236 Speaker 1: bit of anger in it. Like it it feels a 133 00:08:03,236 --> 00:08:06,076 Speaker 1: little bit like like like you're laughing, but you're like, 134 00:08:06,116 --> 00:08:09,316 Speaker 1: oh wow, he's serious, okay. And so this gets me 135 00:08:09,396 --> 00:08:11,036 Speaker 1: to the next thing I want to talk about exactly 136 00:08:11,036 --> 00:08:14,076 Speaker 1: that of like what it means to have a black 137 00:08:14,116 --> 00:08:16,396 Speaker 1: cast and for this to be a black show. It's 138 00:08:16,396 --> 00:08:19,756 Speaker 1: set in a black neighborhood in Los Angeles, um and 139 00:08:19,916 --> 00:08:23,276 Speaker 1: the cast around him. Red Fox sort of brings in 140 00:08:23,316 --> 00:08:25,636 Speaker 1: the people that he's worked with on the Chitland circuit. 141 00:08:25,676 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 1: You know, they're sort of like older, older entertainers, lesser 142 00:08:29,476 --> 00:08:34,316 Speaker 1: nous people like him. You know, if you've watched the show, 143 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:37,556 Speaker 1: the people who played Grady and Esther, all of them 144 00:08:37,556 --> 00:08:39,716 Speaker 1: are like his friends. And it's it's just part of 145 00:08:39,716 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 1: the humor is just seeing comedians so comfortable with one 146 00:08:43,196 --> 00:08:45,316 Speaker 1: another being themselves. And I know, I know, the child 147 00:08:45,356 --> 00:08:48,876 Speaker 1: circuit is common enough a term, but it's not exactly 148 00:08:48,916 --> 00:08:53,076 Speaker 1: a household term. So it's a term for for the 149 00:08:53,156 --> 00:08:56,876 Speaker 1: places where black people performed for black people, mostly in 150 00:08:56,916 --> 00:09:00,636 Speaker 1: the South, Duke joints, speakeasies, you know. It was it 151 00:09:00,716 --> 00:09:04,156 Speaker 1: was just basically wherever black people could get together outside 152 00:09:04,196 --> 00:09:06,796 Speaker 1: the gays of white people and have a good time. Yeah, 153 00:09:06,876 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 1: like there's always been an alternative universe as especially during 154 00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:13,156 Speaker 1: segregated America. Um. And so you might know this, but 155 00:09:13,156 --> 00:09:16,516 Speaker 1: but this is this is essentially the first predominantly black 156 00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:19,316 Speaker 1: cast since Amos and Andy comes out in the nineteen 157 00:09:19,396 --> 00:09:21,476 Speaker 1: did not know that, you know, an Aminus Andy, which 158 00:09:21,556 --> 00:09:24,516 Speaker 1: is often criticized for a kind of minstrelsy, But you know, 159 00:09:24,516 --> 00:09:27,276 Speaker 1: this is this is like twenty plus years later. Um 160 00:09:28,076 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 1: and you know, and and this is the other thing 161 00:09:30,596 --> 00:09:32,996 Speaker 1: I want to say, man, Like this show in the 162 00:09:33,036 --> 00:09:36,436 Speaker 1: seventies is wildly popular. Okay, So it's not just for 163 00:09:36,516 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 1: black audience. It is one of the most popular shows 164 00:09:39,036 --> 00:09:42,556 Speaker 1: in America. Before this show, it seems like The Brady Bunch, 165 00:09:42,596 --> 00:09:44,316 Speaker 1: which is like, if people don't know, it's the whitest 166 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:46,436 Speaker 1: show ever, and it's a it's a version of of 167 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:49,516 Speaker 1: Los Angeles and suburban Los Angeles, which couldn't be whider. 168 00:09:49,756 --> 00:09:52,836 Speaker 1: It's it's like leave It to Beaver nineteen fifty stuff. Um. 169 00:09:53,276 --> 00:09:57,036 Speaker 1: But but then, so this show is about race and 170 00:09:57,116 --> 00:10:00,196 Speaker 1: also about class. You know, they're poor and it's it's comedy, 171 00:10:00,236 --> 00:10:02,716 Speaker 1: so it's not like it's always social issues. But this 172 00:10:02,756 --> 00:10:06,036 Speaker 1: show and the majority of the most popular shows during 173 00:10:06,076 --> 00:10:09,796 Speaker 1: this era are all similar shows. All all in the Family, 174 00:10:09,836 --> 00:10:13,116 Speaker 1: which your white working class family. So good Times, Chico 175 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:16,956 Speaker 1: and the Man, Welcome Back Cotter Rhoda, Mary Tyler Moore, 176 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:20,356 Speaker 1: who is about a working woman. This is so fascinating 177 00:10:20,396 --> 00:10:23,396 Speaker 1: because like that's so different from today. Yeah, I mean, 178 00:10:23,396 --> 00:10:25,196 Speaker 1: we can talk about this later after you talk about 179 00:10:25,236 --> 00:10:28,316 Speaker 1: the Jeffersons of what this means. But but man, like 180 00:10:28,476 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 1: did we regress? Like you know, I think about almost 181 00:10:31,996 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 1: every show today sort of creates this classless world, like 182 00:10:35,196 --> 00:10:38,396 Speaker 1: people are so wealthy in some unnamed way. That you 183 00:10:38,396 --> 00:10:40,996 Speaker 1: don't even have to talk about money. All these shows, 184 00:10:41,236 --> 00:10:44,556 Speaker 1: all these shows in the seventies are about pretty much 185 00:10:44,636 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 1: kind of like either working class or impoverished people, and 186 00:10:47,636 --> 00:10:49,676 Speaker 1: race is at the center. And like think about like 187 00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:53,556 Speaker 1: this is after civil Rights, after sort of the racial 188 00:10:53,596 --> 00:10:57,156 Speaker 1: turmoil and riots and uprisings of the nineteen sixties. It's 189 00:10:57,196 --> 00:10:59,756 Speaker 1: after Attica in nineteen seventy one. Like this is a 190 00:10:59,836 --> 00:11:03,836 Speaker 1: year after that, this prison uprising and violent repression that 191 00:11:03,916 --> 00:11:07,356 Speaker 1: kills thirty nine people. This is America. Is like, even 192 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 1: as America is sort of becoming way more conservative, like 193 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: Nixon as president, and like we're moving into the Reagan years, 194 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:18,756 Speaker 1: comedy is still like in this moment, fascinated by the 195 00:11:18,756 --> 00:11:20,756 Speaker 1: world race and class. Yeah, can I add one thing? 196 00:11:20,796 --> 00:11:23,196 Speaker 1: So I looked up a New Yorker article dating to 197 00:11:23,356 --> 00:11:27,276 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, and a critic was looking at the 198 00:11:27,316 --> 00:11:30,356 Speaker 1: world of Norman Lear, who is behind the shows that 199 00:11:30,436 --> 00:11:32,796 Speaker 1: you mentioned totally, and of course San Francis and the the 200 00:11:32,836 --> 00:11:35,596 Speaker 1: Jeffersons we're talking about today. But just to emphasize the 201 00:11:35,636 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 1: point you've made, the critic in nineteen seventy five estimated 202 00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:44,356 Speaker 1: that one hundred and twenty million people watched every week 203 00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:48,716 Speaker 1: one of those shows or more, and the critic estimates 204 00:11:48,756 --> 00:11:52,796 Speaker 1: that that amounted to five billion people watching a year 205 00:11:52,916 --> 00:11:56,036 Speaker 1: or five billion views a year. Can you imagine the 206 00:11:56,196 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 1: reach of those shows? Just to your point, what happened 207 00:11:59,836 --> 00:12:05,876 Speaker 1: where America? Who? This was saturating the culture and as 208 00:12:05,916 --> 00:12:07,836 Speaker 1: part of whatever backlash, I mean, this is also the 209 00:12:07,876 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 1: start of mass and cars rat at this moment and 210 00:12:09,996 --> 00:12:14,076 Speaker 1: other things. Um that that moves away from these topics. Well, 211 00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:16,676 Speaker 1: what you're saying, I mean in short, is that people 212 00:12:16,716 --> 00:12:20,116 Speaker 1: were learning something meaningful and impactful. Yeah, all right, So 213 00:12:20,396 --> 00:12:23,116 Speaker 1: I don't want to oversell Sandford and Son as sort 214 00:12:23,156 --> 00:12:29,316 Speaker 1: of like you know, as the truth. So much of 215 00:12:29,356 --> 00:12:32,516 Speaker 1: the humor is also like all in the family, Fred 216 00:12:32,556 --> 00:12:36,236 Speaker 1: Sandford is a total big Fred Sandford is a racist. 217 00:12:36,236 --> 00:12:40,876 Speaker 1: Fred Stanford is ignorant as all right, that's the joke. 218 00:12:41,316 --> 00:12:44,996 Speaker 1: That's the joke, okay, Like like he is completely provincial 219 00:12:45,236 --> 00:12:48,356 Speaker 1: and you're seeing how somebody thinks, you know, when they're 220 00:12:48,596 --> 00:12:52,116 Speaker 1: they're by themselves. I'll add that like almost every sitcom 221 00:12:52,156 --> 00:12:56,396 Speaker 1: operates this way, that that we learn the exaggerated limitations 222 00:12:56,436 --> 00:12:59,916 Speaker 1: of a character, that characters are super limited, and then 223 00:12:59,956 --> 00:13:02,236 Speaker 1: they get to be put in moments in situations, and 224 00:13:02,276 --> 00:13:04,436 Speaker 1: we get to see their limitations play out. Got it, 225 00:13:04,516 --> 00:13:08,116 Speaker 1: often in very problematic ways and then like sometimes in 226 00:13:08,196 --> 00:13:11,196 Speaker 1: sweet ways where they overcome their limitations. So you can 227 00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:14,156 Speaker 1: you can reproduce this over The Office is exactly like that, 228 00:13:14,556 --> 00:13:17,676 Speaker 1: or Abbot Elementary is exactly like that. Almost every show 229 00:13:17,756 --> 00:13:21,076 Speaker 1: is exactly like that. Um and Fred is universal in 230 00:13:21,116 --> 00:13:26,076 Speaker 1: his targets. Okay, everybody comes. Oh man, it's about Jewish people. 231 00:13:26,316 --> 00:13:29,276 Speaker 1: He talks about Latinos, he talks about Asians. He sort 232 00:13:29,316 --> 00:13:31,636 Speaker 1: of shakes his hand in this way. They like assuming 233 00:13:31,636 --> 00:13:33,476 Speaker 1: people are gay over and over again, and that's you know, 234 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:36,116 Speaker 1: that's a lot of like laugh lines. And also other 235 00:13:36,156 --> 00:13:39,516 Speaker 1: black people. There's a there's this funny episode where he 236 00:13:40,076 --> 00:13:42,196 Speaker 1: goes to the dentist and he has a black dentist, 237 00:13:42,276 --> 00:13:43,916 Speaker 1: and of course he's like, no, no, no, this guy 238 00:13:43,956 --> 00:13:46,436 Speaker 1: can't be good. Okay, I want the white dentist, you know, 239 00:13:46,516 --> 00:13:49,716 Speaker 1: like like the all saying that white ice is colder 240 00:13:49,716 --> 00:13:54,756 Speaker 1: than than anyone Else's all right, So here's where I 241 00:13:54,796 --> 00:13:56,956 Speaker 1: want to go with this, Khalil, I need to share 242 00:13:57,196 --> 00:14:00,276 Speaker 1: one specific episode with you because this sort of is 243 00:14:00,316 --> 00:14:05,076 Speaker 1: like where Samfordisson takes this race stuff in a really 244 00:14:05,156 --> 00:14:08,596 Speaker 1: a different place, in an interesting place. Um, there's an 245 00:14:08,596 --> 00:14:13,356 Speaker 1: episode nineteen seventy four called Fred Sandford Legal Eagle and 246 00:14:13,356 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 1: and here's what he sets up a business to to provide. 247 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:21,876 Speaker 1: LaMonte gets a traffic ticket. Okay, you know he's in Watts. 248 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:24,836 Speaker 1: He's in South Central, an all black neighborhood, and he 249 00:14:24,956 --> 00:14:27,636 Speaker 1: stopped by a white cop and he feels that had 250 00:14:27,636 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 1: happened unjustly. And just a question for you, is the 251 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:33,796 Speaker 1: context of the Watts Uprising, which had occurred in nineteen 252 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:37,796 Speaker 1: sixty five and had like totally transformed the conversation about 253 00:14:37,836 --> 00:14:40,556 Speaker 1: civil rights, would lead to the Kerner Report on de Johnson, 254 00:14:40,636 --> 00:14:43,716 Speaker 1: Like is that part? Is there any signposting of that 255 00:14:43,796 --> 00:14:46,116 Speaker 1: in this episode. I'm so glad you brought that up 256 00:14:46,396 --> 00:14:49,716 Speaker 1: because kind of listen to this and well we'll come 257 00:14:49,756 --> 00:14:51,436 Speaker 1: back to that, like put a pin of that, because 258 00:14:52,236 --> 00:14:56,076 Speaker 1: how could you imagine people know Watts and no sound 259 00:14:56,116 --> 00:14:58,756 Speaker 1: Central because of that, and yet it's you know, so 260 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:02,756 Speaker 1: it defines the everyone's conception of that. It's the only 261 00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:05,036 Speaker 1: thing most people actually know who are not have ever 262 00:15:05,076 --> 00:15:09,796 Speaker 1: heard California. Yeah, yeah, all right. So Lamont feels like 263 00:15:09,836 --> 00:15:12,476 Speaker 1: he's been profiled. So he's going to fight the ticket 264 00:15:12,516 --> 00:15:16,356 Speaker 1: in court. And here is Lamont on the witness stands 265 00:15:16,356 --> 00:15:19,316 Speaker 1: as the judge tells him he can't address the white 266 00:15:19,316 --> 00:15:23,116 Speaker 1: cop in court in the courtroom directly, Oh, mister Sandford, 267 00:15:23,116 --> 00:15:25,236 Speaker 1: I would think that whatever question you had would be 268 00:15:25,236 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: better asked by your counsel. Are you represented by counsel? Well? 269 00:15:28,596 --> 00:15:31,396 Speaker 1: See when I came up here, I figured it. Did 270 00:15:31,436 --> 00:15:33,476 Speaker 1: you say that that question could be better answered by 271 00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:37,956 Speaker 1: his counsule? That is correct? Who are you? I'm his consul? 272 00:15:41,676 --> 00:15:44,756 Speaker 1: All right? So here we are classic sitcom set up, 273 00:15:44,796 --> 00:15:48,556 Speaker 1: fish out of water, Fred Sandford, who's always disruptive wherever 274 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:50,836 Speaker 1: he goes. He doesn't follow any of the rules. He's 275 00:15:50,836 --> 00:15:53,716 Speaker 1: it's his obliviousness. He just doesn't care. A moment where 276 00:15:53,716 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 1: you can just you let Fred be Fred. And and 277 00:15:56,956 --> 00:15:59,316 Speaker 1: so I need you to hear what happens next and 278 00:15:59,316 --> 00:16:01,436 Speaker 1: how this because I'm thinking does this work to Lamont's 279 00:16:01,476 --> 00:16:05,676 Speaker 1: advantage or not? Oh? Man, it's crazy because because I 280 00:16:05,796 --> 00:16:08,316 Speaker 1: am actually not sure even what to make of this 281 00:16:08,396 --> 00:16:13,436 Speaker 1: moment From from UH Network Television in nineteen seventy four, 282 00:16:13,516 --> 00:16:18,196 Speaker 1: k So Fred, acting as Lamont's lawyer, he turns to 283 00:16:18,276 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 1: the lap D officer and begins to question him. Okay, listen, 284 00:16:23,916 --> 00:16:27,036 Speaker 1: why don't you arrest some white rabbits? I do you do? 285 00:16:29,036 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 1: Look at all these niggas, indiot, there's enough niggas in 286 00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:48,356 Speaker 1: here to make a Tarzan movie. Oh gosh, oh man, 287 00:16:48,876 --> 00:16:53,596 Speaker 1: oh my goodness. Yes, that's network television. That is honest, 288 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:59,396 Speaker 1: network unbelievable. Yeah, so I think I think, yeah, you 289 00:16:59,436 --> 00:17:03,556 Speaker 1: go ahead. No, you were five. I was three, And like, 290 00:17:03,716 --> 00:17:06,316 Speaker 1: although we didn't watch these when they premiered, we grew 291 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:08,796 Speaker 1: up on these and and frankly our kids have watched 292 00:17:08,876 --> 00:17:11,196 Speaker 1: TV Land versions of these shows. It's just it's just 293 00:17:11,556 --> 00:17:15,396 Speaker 1: it's just incredible to think about the racial politics and 294 00:17:15,556 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 1: the language and the raw edge of social commentary and 295 00:17:20,316 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 1: criticism expressed in that moment. Yeah, yeah, that's really well put. Uh, 296 00:17:25,516 --> 00:17:28,316 Speaker 1: this is something I learned from Jake. Also, Paul Mooney 297 00:17:28,716 --> 00:17:31,356 Speaker 1: helped write that episode. Paul Mooney, the black writer. He 298 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:33,716 Speaker 1: wrote for Richard Pryor. He people might have seen him 299 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:37,676 Speaker 1: on Chappelle's show. He was a recurring character as well. Um, 300 00:17:37,796 --> 00:17:40,436 Speaker 1: and so he wrote that that line, and he thought 301 00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:43,636 Speaker 1: the joke was the second part about Tarzan, which is, 302 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:45,836 Speaker 1: you know there is supposed to be said in Africa. 303 00:17:46,236 --> 00:17:48,876 Speaker 1: But but there's such a laugh line of just Fred 304 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:54,076 Speaker 1: stating the truth and stating it with this you know, flourish, 305 00:17:54,156 --> 00:17:56,916 Speaker 1: this embellished word that you don't hear on network television. Well, 306 00:17:56,996 --> 00:17:59,516 Speaker 1: well not anymore. But it turns out you yeah, because 307 00:17:59,716 --> 00:18:03,156 Speaker 1: we get to the jefferences. Boy oh boy. But like 308 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:08,716 Speaker 1: the joke is just stating the facts. It's stating the 309 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:13,396 Speaker 1: sense of racial oppression. And how is that funny? Right, 310 00:18:13,436 --> 00:18:15,676 Speaker 1: Like that's kind of why it's well, it's stating it. 311 00:18:15,796 --> 00:18:17,796 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm hearing it again for the first time 312 00:18:17,836 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 1: maybe ever and certainly in a long time if I 313 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 1: watched it at all, and it's like that earlier clip 314 00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:27,596 Speaker 1: you played. It's both hilarious for the inside humor that 315 00:18:27,596 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 1: that speaks to black people, right because they've all been 316 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:36,156 Speaker 1: there in that moment, and also the searing criticism that 317 00:18:36,316 --> 00:18:39,476 Speaker 1: the in word is the way in which the criminal 318 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:43,636 Speaker 1: justice system treated and understood black people as deserving of 319 00:18:43,676 --> 00:18:47,996 Speaker 1: this this punitive system. Yeah, and I'm going to add 320 00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:52,916 Speaker 1: something about this episode because Fred is also undercutting the politics. 321 00:18:54,036 --> 00:18:56,356 Speaker 1: All of his cronies come to the courtroom, you know, 322 00:18:56,436 --> 00:19:01,796 Speaker 1: all of his buddies Ubb Grady and and he's actually 323 00:19:01,876 --> 00:19:05,276 Speaker 1: betting with them whether Lamont's going to get h you know, 324 00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:07,876 Speaker 1: get off or not. You know. So he's like got 325 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:09,676 Speaker 1: two to one odds and so on. And he's like 326 00:19:09,716 --> 00:19:12,076 Speaker 1: even as he's saying this, he's winking to his friends. 327 00:19:13,076 --> 00:19:16,396 Speaker 1: So it's just funny. Like he's speaking in many voices, 328 00:19:16,436 --> 00:19:18,276 Speaker 1: if you know what I mean, Like like it's working 329 00:19:18,316 --> 00:19:23,236 Speaker 1: on all these different levels. And yeah, I just something 330 00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:27,716 Speaker 1: about this, the seriousness of this moment of being part 331 00:19:27,756 --> 00:19:31,196 Speaker 1: of the national conversation. And you talked about the Watts riots. 332 00:19:31,236 --> 00:19:34,276 Speaker 1: I mean, here it is about the Watts riots. Yeah, 333 00:19:34,316 --> 00:19:37,076 Speaker 1: it's exactly because I mean it's not stated. I mean, 334 00:19:37,116 --> 00:19:40,756 Speaker 1: and obviously most people know this, but the Watts riot 335 00:19:40,916 --> 00:19:44,356 Speaker 1: in a thousand other ones were all centered around some 336 00:19:44,436 --> 00:19:49,996 Speaker 1: police activity, some instance of police brutality and justice outright killing. 337 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:53,076 Speaker 1: I mean almost every so called civil disturbance of the 338 00:19:53,116 --> 00:19:57,236 Speaker 1: time period, riot or uprising, all centered around policing. Yeah, 339 00:19:57,276 --> 00:19:59,996 Speaker 1: but let's take a quick break and when we come back, 340 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:02,356 Speaker 1: you can break down some stuff to me about the 341 00:20:02,436 --> 00:20:04,836 Speaker 1: Jeffersons and we'll think about the connections and what to 342 00:20:04,916 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: make of this. Do it welcome? Back to some of 343 00:20:20,236 --> 00:20:23,116 Speaker 1: my best friends are Ben Man. That was so much 344 00:20:23,196 --> 00:20:27,236 Speaker 1: fun revisiting Sanford and Son and hearing Red Fox. I mean, 345 00:20:27,316 --> 00:20:30,436 Speaker 1: someone who was before our time, but you know we 346 00:20:30,556 --> 00:20:32,316 Speaker 1: got we got to know a little bit of him 347 00:20:32,316 --> 00:20:36,116 Speaker 1: through Sandford and Son. Oh. Just but but always right 348 00:20:36,196 --> 00:20:40,156 Speaker 1: on time, exactly. You know. I just want to talk 349 00:20:40,196 --> 00:20:43,516 Speaker 1: about in the context of what's happening just years after 350 00:20:43,556 --> 00:20:46,236 Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Movement. This is the period of time, 351 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:50,476 Speaker 1: by early nineteen seventy when when a whole new generation 352 00:20:50,516 --> 00:20:54,236 Speaker 1: of black people are entering into they're they're becoming mayors 353 00:20:54,276 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 1: of cities, they are moving into positions in middle management 354 00:20:58,716 --> 00:21:01,156 Speaker 1: and companies all over the place. I call this the 355 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:05,596 Speaker 1: era of black firsts Black first, Okay, that's right. And 356 00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:07,996 Speaker 1: another way to think of it is it's also the 357 00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 1: age of the self made black man and woman. Anyone 358 00:21:12,276 --> 00:21:15,596 Speaker 1: of that generation picking up an Ebony magazine or a 359 00:21:15,676 --> 00:21:19,796 Speaker 1: Jet magazine would see, you know, these beautiful black people 360 00:21:19,836 --> 00:21:23,676 Speaker 1: in full color, you know, celebrating black excellence in the 361 00:21:23,836 --> 00:21:27,836 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and eighties especially, Yeah, yeah, interesting. So the 362 00:21:27,876 --> 00:21:31,156 Speaker 1: image of Sanford, instead of being so impoverished and kind 363 00:21:31,156 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 1: of run down and slovenly not that like that sort 364 00:21:35,196 --> 00:21:38,036 Speaker 1: of cuts against this image. That's right, because the image 365 00:21:38,036 --> 00:21:41,996 Speaker 1: of poverty had always defined the sort of debate about 366 00:21:42,036 --> 00:21:45,596 Speaker 1: black people coming out of slavery then as sharecroppers, and 367 00:21:45,676 --> 00:21:48,836 Speaker 1: of course black Southerners through the Civil rights movement had 368 00:21:48,836 --> 00:21:52,356 Speaker 1: always always presented themselves as respectable. You know, you never 369 00:21:52,356 --> 00:21:54,796 Speaker 1: saw anybody in a civil rights protest that was covered 370 00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 1: by the news who wasn't in a three piece suit 371 00:21:56,636 --> 00:21:59,436 Speaker 1: and wearing a fancy fedor or a woman in the skirt. 372 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:02,756 Speaker 1: So super interesting man, because because a critique of Sanford 373 00:22:02,756 --> 00:22:04,996 Speaker 1: and Son from at the time was that he's not 374 00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:07,316 Speaker 1: like a credit to the race. You know that that 375 00:22:07,596 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: that this isn't what the Osby Show would be like 376 00:22:10,116 --> 00:22:12,916 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, where everything is pristine. That's right. 377 00:22:13,116 --> 00:22:16,796 Speaker 1: So there is a tension. I mean, what Sanford and 378 00:22:16,956 --> 00:22:20,916 Speaker 1: Son brings to the national cultural milieu of that time 379 00:22:21,116 --> 00:22:25,316 Speaker 1: is this essentially kind of war between two competing images 380 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 1: of Black America. What year does the Jeffersons appear in 381 00:22:27,916 --> 00:22:31,956 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five is when the chopin years that seems 382 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:33,796 Speaker 1: so much earlier than I would have thought. I remember 383 00:22:33,836 --> 00:22:36,956 Speaker 1: watching it, you know, aln Air at the time. It 384 00:22:37,036 --> 00:22:39,596 Speaker 1: must have been later episodes, but I remember watching it 385 00:22:39,636 --> 00:22:41,756 Speaker 1: with my brother. Well, the curious thing is it ran 386 00:22:41,836 --> 00:22:45,076 Speaker 1: for eleven seasons, so by the time through the eighties, 387 00:22:45,116 --> 00:22:47,996 Speaker 1: that's right, we were thirteen fourteen years old, just about 388 00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:50,116 Speaker 1: high school by the time this show actually went off 389 00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:52,676 Speaker 1: the air, so we captured a lot of time. But 390 00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:54,916 Speaker 1: talking about this age of the self made black man 391 00:22:54,956 --> 00:22:59,556 Speaker 1: and woman, Richard Nixon actually initiates in his presidency in 392 00:22:59,596 --> 00:23:01,916 Speaker 1: his first term after he's election in nineteen sixty eight, 393 00:23:02,116 --> 00:23:05,996 Speaker 1: he's going to try to pick off black people by 394 00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:11,516 Speaker 1: initiating this domestic policy of black capitalism. And what that meant, 395 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:16,156 Speaker 1: practically speaking, was by turning black people into capitalists, by 396 00:23:16,276 --> 00:23:19,436 Speaker 1: encouraging the private sector to give them jobs, by making 397 00:23:19,476 --> 00:23:22,556 Speaker 1: some key appointments in the federal government, by establishing a 398 00:23:22,596 --> 00:23:27,756 Speaker 1: small business loan operation which ultimately produces minority and women 399 00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:31,476 Speaker 1: contracts to this very day for federal and state local contracting. 400 00:23:31,876 --> 00:23:34,916 Speaker 1: Nixon was like, I'm going to secure the future of 401 00:23:34,916 --> 00:23:38,596 Speaker 1: the Republican Party by focusing on black elites, or at 402 00:23:38,636 --> 00:23:42,476 Speaker 1: least by manufacturing them. It's come on, professor, keep coming, 403 00:23:42,556 --> 00:23:45,596 Speaker 1: keep coming. So it's a sense of like I got 404 00:23:45,676 --> 00:23:49,596 Speaker 1: mine really sort of promoting individualism over a sort of 405 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:53,236 Speaker 1: like a whole sort of social idea collective good. That's 406 00:23:53,276 --> 00:23:56,156 Speaker 1: exactly right. He's gonna He's gonna be the answer to 407 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:59,156 Speaker 1: Lamont's prayer. So if Lamont and Sanford and such says 408 00:23:59,236 --> 00:24:01,996 Speaker 1: I don't want to be poor, Richard Nixon is going 409 00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:05,036 Speaker 1: to say, hey, you can become rich if you just 410 00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:08,116 Speaker 1: follow the Republican party plan. And it's always going to 411 00:24:08,196 --> 00:24:11,356 Speaker 1: be about individual the first season, the Jefferson gives voice 412 00:24:11,396 --> 00:24:15,156 Speaker 1: to this idea, but this show is built around this 413 00:24:15,356 --> 00:24:19,356 Speaker 1: new era of a self made black man and woman who, 414 00:24:19,396 --> 00:24:22,836 Speaker 1: in the case of the Jeffersons, are going to literally 415 00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:26,876 Speaker 1: move up, like literally move on up. We're been moving 416 00:24:26,956 --> 00:24:40,076 Speaker 1: on DoD. I mean, the whole theme song is a 417 00:24:40,676 --> 00:24:44,116 Speaker 1: is a commentary on exactly this point. We are moving 418 00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: on up, moving to the East side to a d 419 00:24:46,236 --> 00:24:48,756 Speaker 1: luxe apartment in the sky. Everybody's heard this song at 420 00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:51,076 Speaker 1: some point, ah man man. So this is this is 421 00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:54,156 Speaker 1: almost like the show is an illustration exactly of this idea. 422 00:24:54,396 --> 00:24:56,356 Speaker 1: They're on the upper east Side of New York City 423 00:24:56,596 --> 00:25:00,196 Speaker 1: in a penthouse. Uh and and and the main guy, 424 00:25:00,676 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 1: George Jefferson Sherman Hemsley, the actor he runs if I 425 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:09,676 Speaker 1: remember a cleaning business Rights and Laundry Cleaners, Yes, okay, yep. 426 00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 1: And so so what we learn of this couple is that, 427 00:25:13,676 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 1: you know, George is this successful businessman. When we first 428 00:25:17,476 --> 00:25:20,836 Speaker 1: meet them, essentially they are in this luxury apartment. He's 429 00:25:21,116 --> 00:25:24,476 Speaker 1: he wears double breasted and three piece suits. He occasionally 430 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:28,876 Speaker 1: wears an ascot and a smoking jacket. And Louise, his wife, 431 00:25:28,876 --> 00:25:33,116 Speaker 1: who's played by Isabel Sandford. George is played by Sherman Helmsley, 432 00:25:33,356 --> 00:25:36,356 Speaker 1: and they are fighting constantly. I mean, this is like 433 00:25:36,436 --> 00:25:38,836 Speaker 1: if if leave it to Beaver, which you mentioned earlier, 434 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 1: was like the idyllic white suburban housewife and and husband 435 00:25:44,276 --> 00:25:47,676 Speaker 1: and their two you know, beautiful kids. One just happens 436 00:25:47,676 --> 00:25:51,716 Speaker 1: to be mischievous. This is just the opposite. These two 437 00:25:51,756 --> 00:25:57,476 Speaker 1: are fighting constantly, and indeed the fight itself is the 438 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:01,556 Speaker 1: platform through which they often explore the tensions in their 439 00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:05,596 Speaker 1: own family. Louise, it turns out, is much more concerned about, 440 00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:09,156 Speaker 1: you know, the trappings of being rich. George is obsessed with. 441 00:26:09,636 --> 00:26:12,636 Speaker 1: George is doing everything in his power to make more money, 442 00:26:12,676 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 1: to open more stores, to make more contacts and Louise 443 00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:18,676 Speaker 1: is like, you know, I feel kind of useless in 444 00:26:18,676 --> 00:26:21,156 Speaker 1: this space, and and you know, I'm not used to 445 00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:24,316 Speaker 1: not working, and I'm concerned about Lionel, who is their 446 00:26:24,356 --> 00:26:27,716 Speaker 1: adult son. So interesting that some of the dynamics from 447 00:26:27,716 --> 00:26:30,716 Speaker 1: San franc And continue here and some are in a 448 00:26:30,796 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 1: completely different setting and economic world. That's right, And and 449 00:26:34,716 --> 00:26:37,996 Speaker 1: interestingly enough, I mean dating ourselves. George, believe it or not, 450 00:26:38,116 --> 00:26:41,476 Speaker 1: and Louise are like forty six years old, so they're 451 00:26:41,516 --> 00:26:45,116 Speaker 1: actually younger in this movie or this TV show than 452 00:26:45,476 --> 00:26:48,396 Speaker 1: we are at this time. But George is the son 453 00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 1: of a sharecropper and Louise is the daughter of a janitor. 454 00:26:52,076 --> 00:26:56,396 Speaker 1: So we meet them in this small setting where it's 455 00:26:56,396 --> 00:26:58,796 Speaker 1: the two of them their son. There are two other 456 00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:02,396 Speaker 1: sets of characters that are very meaningful. It's there's an 457 00:27:02,396 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 1: interracial couple, Tom and Helen Willis and you know that 458 00:27:06,876 --> 00:27:09,916 Speaker 1: they're my role models for life. That's right. Toma's wife 459 00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:14,276 Speaker 1: Helen is black, and their daughter Jenny. There is George's mother, 460 00:27:14,836 --> 00:27:20,036 Speaker 1: mother Jefferson. She is worth watching every episode of the 461 00:27:20,076 --> 00:27:25,636 Speaker 1: first season. She is incredible. So the final person that 462 00:27:26,076 --> 00:27:29,996 Speaker 1: I want to mention briefly is the maid Florence. Florence 463 00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:34,076 Speaker 1: in the opening episode of the show, gives voice to 464 00:27:34,116 --> 00:27:37,876 Speaker 1: the class tensions that are on full view in the Jeffersons. 465 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:41,036 Speaker 1: Let's hear it in this clip. You folks man, if 466 00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:43,796 Speaker 1: I ask you something, no, go right ahead? Can you 467 00:27:43,876 --> 00:27:46,796 Speaker 1: live in this apartment? Right? And you've got an apartment 468 00:27:46,836 --> 00:27:50,636 Speaker 1: in this building too? Yes, that's right. How come we 469 00:27:50,676 --> 00:27:54,556 Speaker 1: overcame and no Matter told me. Yeah, there's something that 470 00:27:54,716 --> 00:27:57,436 Speaker 1: throws her off about this whole dynamic. Yeah. So there 471 00:27:57,916 --> 00:28:01,036 Speaker 1: are really some powerful themes that come through in the 472 00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:03,516 Speaker 1: Jeffersons that I want to talk about. This consistent with 473 00:28:03,556 --> 00:28:06,436 Speaker 1: this class tension. So if Sandford and Son, as you've 474 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:10,476 Speaker 1: already suggested, is really sort of the bridge between the 475 00:28:10,516 --> 00:28:14,556 Speaker 1: world of Wattson uprisings and poor people left behind in America. 476 00:28:14,716 --> 00:28:18,236 Speaker 1: This is an aspirational vision, This is a normative vision, 477 00:28:18,636 --> 00:28:21,076 Speaker 1: and this takes us into the Reagan era. This is 478 00:28:21,116 --> 00:28:24,276 Speaker 1: like a Reagan theme show, even if it starts before it. 479 00:28:24,356 --> 00:28:27,676 Speaker 1: That's right. So let's just start with one theme, which 480 00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:31,156 Speaker 1: is the interracial politics of the show. I mean here 481 00:28:31,156 --> 00:28:33,676 Speaker 1: it is some of my best friends are This show 482 00:28:33,836 --> 00:28:37,916 Speaker 1: is playing to this issue and we want to understand 483 00:28:37,956 --> 00:28:42,276 Speaker 1: precisely how they as a black family are navigating proximity 484 00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:45,356 Speaker 1: to white people, which of course is now on equal terms, 485 00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:47,396 Speaker 1: rather than in the world of Sandford and Sun, which 486 00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:50,396 Speaker 1: is always about power and conflict. And so the show 487 00:28:50,436 --> 00:28:53,476 Speaker 1: comes out swinging in the first episode. First of all, 488 00:28:53,516 --> 00:28:57,276 Speaker 1: George is constantly calling Tom and Helen a zebra couple, 489 00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:01,236 Speaker 1: so it's very explicit language to like make fun of them. 490 00:29:02,116 --> 00:29:06,076 Speaker 1: There's a lot of conversation about the in word, about 491 00:29:06,596 --> 00:29:10,276 Speaker 1: about they use the word honky all the time, the 492 00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 1: word whitey is ubiquitous. But they're also these moments where 493 00:29:14,436 --> 00:29:17,836 Speaker 1: there's this commentary about how white people are not all 494 00:29:17,916 --> 00:29:20,316 Speaker 1: that they are cracked up to be. In fact, Mother 495 00:29:20,396 --> 00:29:24,156 Speaker 1: Jefferson says to Louise in one episode, She's like, I 496 00:29:24,196 --> 00:29:27,236 Speaker 1: think you're out cheating on George because you didn't meet 497 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 1: me where you were supposed to be. And Louise of 498 00:29:28,996 --> 00:29:32,116 Speaker 1: course is like, that's ridiculous, and Mother Jefferson's line she 499 00:29:32,156 --> 00:29:34,356 Speaker 1: comes back and she says, if you live among the 500 00:29:34,396 --> 00:29:37,236 Speaker 1: white folks, some of their ways are bound to rub off, 501 00:29:41,116 --> 00:29:43,556 Speaker 1: that's right. And then there are all these references to 502 00:29:43,676 --> 00:29:45,956 Speaker 1: blacks and Jews, which I have to say, I didn't 503 00:29:45,956 --> 00:29:49,236 Speaker 1: pick up, of course before, but they're the playful references. 504 00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:52,596 Speaker 1: For example, at some point they're hosting a party and 505 00:29:52,996 --> 00:29:56,236 Speaker 1: they have out bagels and locks and cream cheese, and 506 00:29:56,676 --> 00:30:02,236 Speaker 1: George is like Jewish so food. You know, it's interesting 507 00:30:02,396 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 1: when just when you said that, in my memory of 508 00:30:04,116 --> 00:30:08,036 Speaker 1: the show and the white characters that you described, they 509 00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:13,076 Speaker 1: are so goyish, they are so not Jewish, and that 510 00:30:13,236 --> 00:30:16,396 Speaker 1: you have all these white writers, but they the white 511 00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:19,236 Speaker 1: sort of buffoony characters, whether they're British or sort of 512 00:30:19,276 --> 00:30:22,516 Speaker 1: you know, very waspy. They don't write in Jews as 513 00:30:22,516 --> 00:30:25,556 Speaker 1: the neighbors. That's interesting. Actually there's this isn't This is 514 00:30:25,596 --> 00:30:28,396 Speaker 1: in the Upper West Side for example. That's right. So 515 00:30:28,996 --> 00:30:31,876 Speaker 1: just to give people a sense of how language works. 516 00:30:32,236 --> 00:30:34,876 Speaker 1: And this is not Red Fox, this is Sherman Helmsley 517 00:30:35,076 --> 00:30:39,036 Speaker 1: and Isabel Sandford. I want you to hear this clip. Now. 518 00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:41,916 Speaker 1: This is a moment where George basically buys his son 519 00:30:41,996 --> 00:30:45,476 Speaker 1: Lionel a very expensive watch. So let's listen to the clip, 520 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:48,756 Speaker 1: which again heads up, the N word is in here too, 521 00:30:49,476 --> 00:30:57,036 Speaker 1: but must be at least hundred dollars three hundred and 522 00:30:57,196 --> 00:31:09,836 Speaker 1: fifty dollars for watch nigga, please what man exactly? Huh? 523 00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:13,396 Speaker 1: That was surprised me. Yes, that I don't. I don't 524 00:31:13,436 --> 00:31:16,636 Speaker 1: remember that about the show, And I thought, yeah, I mean, 525 00:31:16,676 --> 00:31:19,636 Speaker 1: so George is flexing like he wants the price he's 526 00:31:19,636 --> 00:31:24,156 Speaker 1: proud of I'm imagining in that episode. Yeah, No, he's 527 00:31:24,196 --> 00:31:26,676 Speaker 1: he's totally flexing. This is blaming, he's blinging. He wants 528 00:31:26,676 --> 00:31:29,036 Speaker 1: his son to shine, he wants to show his wealth, 529 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:31,356 Speaker 1: which is, you know, part of a familiar trope of 530 00:31:31,356 --> 00:31:33,556 Speaker 1: like nouveau reache. Right, you wear it on you literally 531 00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:36,396 Speaker 1: wear it on your sleeve. Yeah, they're of this world 532 00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:38,556 Speaker 1: and not of this world. That's a that's a lot 533 00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:41,476 Speaker 1: of the humor is derived out of that. Yeah. So 534 00:31:41,476 --> 00:31:43,236 Speaker 1: so of course I already told you the in word 535 00:31:43,396 --> 00:31:45,916 Speaker 1: is is ubiquitous. But it's not just it's not just 536 00:31:45,996 --> 00:31:48,196 Speaker 1: like the timing of of dropping the in word in 537 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:51,716 Speaker 1: these episodes. It's also like using the in word in 538 00:31:51,836 --> 00:31:55,116 Speaker 1: mixed company. And and that is what's different in this 539 00:31:55,156 --> 00:31:57,596 Speaker 1: show is like how do you navigate, at least as 540 00:31:57,596 --> 00:32:01,916 Speaker 1: the writers understand it, what's on people's minds. So in 541 00:32:01,956 --> 00:32:05,356 Speaker 1: this scene, George and Wheezy are having one of their 542 00:32:05,476 --> 00:32:08,316 Speaker 1: usual fights and they're having it in front of Tom 543 00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:12,156 Speaker 1: and Helen, and basically it turns on like this question 544 00:32:12,196 --> 00:32:15,236 Speaker 1: of like, why do you guys always fight with each other? 545 00:32:15,756 --> 00:32:18,196 Speaker 1: Um in front of this interracial couple. So we're gonna 546 00:32:18,196 --> 00:32:21,676 Speaker 1: play the clip and hear what they say, Comemen, Helen, 547 00:32:21,996 --> 00:32:24,436 Speaker 1: they don't fight, they don't fight, they're scared to fight. 548 00:32:24,556 --> 00:32:26,996 Speaker 1: What's that supposed to mean? You know, damn well what 549 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:29,156 Speaker 1: it means if you do ever really started going in 550 00:32:29,236 --> 00:32:32,036 Speaker 1: one another inside of five minutes, he'd be calling you 551 00:32:32,036 --> 00:32:39,236 Speaker 1: young saint niggah man. So so obviously with this interracial couple, 552 00:32:39,316 --> 00:32:42,396 Speaker 1: instead of us just assuming that there is no racial 553 00:32:42,396 --> 00:32:48,076 Speaker 1: tension in the in the relationship itself, George actually transposes 554 00:32:48,316 --> 00:32:51,956 Speaker 1: his own animosity, his own sense of race onto this 555 00:32:51,996 --> 00:32:56,316 Speaker 1: other couple. Oh man, I'm thinking one about how the 556 00:32:56,436 --> 00:33:00,276 Speaker 1: N word is deployed differently in the clip I played 557 00:33:00,316 --> 00:33:03,916 Speaker 1: you from from San Ferdancian and in these moments, and 558 00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:09,636 Speaker 1: and also about this continuum from the early seventies and 559 00:33:10,036 --> 00:33:12,356 Speaker 1: sort of coming out of the racial uprising of the 560 00:33:12,396 --> 00:33:16,676 Speaker 1: sixties through the Jeffersons into the eighties, which is about 561 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:20,836 Speaker 1: moving on up about this individualism and still we're hearing 562 00:33:21,196 --> 00:33:25,076 Speaker 1: you know, the Jeffersons is still about about class differences 563 00:33:25,156 --> 00:33:28,116 Speaker 1: and racial differences, but we're just moving them from the 564 00:33:28,196 --> 00:33:30,756 Speaker 1: Junkyard into the Upper east Side. But in a way, 565 00:33:31,116 --> 00:33:34,836 Speaker 1: the dynamics are similar. Yeah, so let's talk about how 566 00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:38,596 Speaker 1: they deal with class or the class divide actually in 567 00:33:38,676 --> 00:33:41,836 Speaker 1: how whites perceive that class divide. So rather than it 568 00:33:41,996 --> 00:33:44,956 Speaker 1: just being about how black people themselves are navigating their 569 00:33:44,956 --> 00:33:47,636 Speaker 1: new wealth in a white world, part of what the 570 00:33:47,676 --> 00:33:51,396 Speaker 1: show does is to expose how white people are trying 571 00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:53,996 Speaker 1: to make sense of their new black middle class and 572 00:33:54,036 --> 00:33:57,796 Speaker 1: elite neighbors. So in this scene, George has just bought 573 00:33:57,836 --> 00:34:00,636 Speaker 1: a brand new piano for the home. No one can 574 00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:02,876 Speaker 1: play it, and no one is interested in playing it. 575 00:34:02,876 --> 00:34:06,756 Speaker 1: It is literally a set piece for showing off his 576 00:34:06,876 --> 00:34:09,436 Speaker 1: new wealth in front of his white neighbors. And they 577 00:34:09,476 --> 00:34:11,676 Speaker 1: happen to be there, happens to be a large gathering 578 00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:14,996 Speaker 1: them in his apartment because he's been elected to lead 579 00:34:15,036 --> 00:34:18,956 Speaker 1: a tenant protest against the building management because they've raised 580 00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 1: prices to you know, for the for the association fee. 581 00:34:22,356 --> 00:34:26,236 Speaker 1: So one of the guests, one of the guests approaches 582 00:34:26,276 --> 00:34:30,076 Speaker 1: George to thank him for taking leadership. We're gonna hear 583 00:34:30,116 --> 00:34:33,316 Speaker 1: this in the clip. Oh, hello Jefferson. I must say, 584 00:34:33,356 --> 00:34:37,716 Speaker 1: we're delighted that you're leading the protests, aren't we marrying? Yes, 585 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:43,876 Speaker 1: you colored folk can teach us a lot to be 586 00:34:43,876 --> 00:34:47,436 Speaker 1: a militant. I'm a businessman. Do I look like a 587 00:34:47,516 --> 00:34:51,956 Speaker 1: militant to you? Yes? The answer is yesterday exactly. That's hilarious. 588 00:34:52,116 --> 00:34:54,396 Speaker 1: So it was like appropriating all of the all of 589 00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:56,876 Speaker 1: the militancy of the last ten years and saying like, 590 00:34:56,996 --> 00:34:58,876 Speaker 1: now we can use it for our own good on 591 00:34:58,956 --> 00:35:02,436 Speaker 1: the Upper East Side. One's hilarious. And also assuming that 592 00:35:02,516 --> 00:35:05,356 Speaker 1: every black person was a militant of that time period. 593 00:35:05,476 --> 00:35:08,596 Speaker 1: And George is like, no, don't pigeonhole me. I gotta 594 00:35:08,596 --> 00:35:11,476 Speaker 1: ask you a ques, okay, because I'm thinking about the Jeffersons, 595 00:35:11,956 --> 00:35:16,156 Speaker 1: and you are working on a book that's called Bootstrapping, 596 00:35:16,636 --> 00:35:21,236 Speaker 1: which is essentially exactly about this. It's about the Jeffersons 597 00:35:21,236 --> 00:35:22,956 Speaker 1: in a way, about this moment and what you started 598 00:35:22,996 --> 00:35:25,116 Speaker 1: out talking about, you know, from the Nickson era through 599 00:35:25,116 --> 00:35:29,596 Speaker 1: the Reagan era. So how does this sitcom play into 600 00:35:29,676 --> 00:35:35,716 Speaker 1: sort of your thesis, your idea of black individualism of 601 00:35:36,996 --> 00:35:38,756 Speaker 1: you know, and that it even has a kind of 602 00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:42,316 Speaker 1: corrosive effect on society. So that's a really good question because, 603 00:35:43,156 --> 00:35:45,876 Speaker 1: as you know, my book is trying to make sense 604 00:35:46,076 --> 00:35:49,316 Speaker 1: of the emergence of this new generation of black elites 605 00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:52,676 Speaker 1: and what their politics are. And to some degree, the 606 00:35:52,756 --> 00:35:57,676 Speaker 1: Jefferson perfectly encapsulates the early tension for this new generation. 607 00:35:58,076 --> 00:36:00,916 Speaker 1: They're trying to make sense of their own success. They're 608 00:36:00,916 --> 00:36:03,676 Speaker 1: trying to figure out like are we leaving the community behind? 609 00:36:04,196 --> 00:36:07,236 Speaker 1: Like how do we connect with white people? Are we 610 00:36:07,476 --> 00:36:10,396 Speaker 1: do we have shared interest? Are we totally aligned? Or 611 00:36:10,436 --> 00:36:13,916 Speaker 1: are we not? And one of the aspects of the 612 00:36:14,356 --> 00:36:19,836 Speaker 1: show is the tension that the Jeffersons themselves find themselves 613 00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:22,676 Speaker 1: in between. And that's what I would say to answer 614 00:36:22,716 --> 00:36:25,916 Speaker 1: your question. They are and in between. They are in 615 00:36:25,956 --> 00:36:29,356 Speaker 1: a middle space. They are neither They've neither drunk the 616 00:36:29,356 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 1: tea of individual success as the only measure of racial progress, 617 00:36:32,796 --> 00:36:36,596 Speaker 1: and they don't leave behind the people who they grew 618 00:36:36,676 --> 00:36:39,316 Speaker 1: up with. In fact, one of the scenes is this 619 00:36:39,356 --> 00:36:42,396 Speaker 1: scene with an old couple that they lived with in 620 00:36:42,396 --> 00:36:45,796 Speaker 1: a rat infested apartment and they haven't seen this couple 621 00:36:45,796 --> 00:36:48,476 Speaker 1: of years, and Louise is so excited to host them 622 00:36:48,476 --> 00:36:50,996 Speaker 1: for dinner, except that they happen to be coming on 623 00:36:51,036 --> 00:36:53,836 Speaker 1: the same night that this rich black businessman named Coleman 624 00:36:53,916 --> 00:36:56,876 Speaker 1: Harris has already been invited. And of course George is 625 00:36:56,916 --> 00:37:00,356 Speaker 1: a thousand percent committed to doing business with this guy. 626 00:37:00,876 --> 00:37:05,356 Speaker 1: And in the scene you hear this older couple say, hey, 627 00:37:05,556 --> 00:37:08,476 Speaker 1: we're uncomfortable being around this guy, like we don't know him, 628 00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:10,516 Speaker 1: and usually the people are not very kind to us. 629 00:37:10,516 --> 00:37:12,036 Speaker 1: And George and Wheezer are like, no, no, no, no, 630 00:37:12,156 --> 00:37:14,396 Speaker 1: we'll we'll work it out. But then they end up 631 00:37:14,436 --> 00:37:18,756 Speaker 1: having this conversation about working class black people. You know, 632 00:37:18,836 --> 00:37:22,556 Speaker 1: Sam's the trouble with the working classes that they don't 633 00:37:22,596 --> 00:37:24,956 Speaker 1: want to work anymore. I don't know about you, but 634 00:37:24,996 --> 00:37:27,356 Speaker 1: I'm having a lot of trouble getting colored help. Yeah, 635 00:37:27,436 --> 00:37:33,556 Speaker 1: what color you looking for? You know what I mean? 636 00:37:35,236 --> 00:37:38,316 Speaker 1: How do people not asking the No. One opportunity to knocks? 637 00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:41,436 Speaker 1: How much are you knocking with? What do you mean? 638 00:37:41,716 --> 00:37:44,636 Speaker 1: I mean? How much are you paying? Well? What difference 639 00:37:44,676 --> 00:37:47,156 Speaker 1: does that make you do? All the people out of work, 640 00:37:47,196 --> 00:37:49,276 Speaker 1: you think they'd be glad to get anything, but no, 641 00:37:49,356 --> 00:37:52,636 Speaker 1: they're rather say at home, living lazy on welfare, living 642 00:37:52,756 --> 00:37:55,476 Speaker 1: lazy on welfare. Let me telling you something, mister I 643 00:37:55,476 --> 00:38:00,076 Speaker 1: ain't like the wine, mister h Man, I was. I 644 00:38:00,116 --> 00:38:02,996 Speaker 1: was wondering if sort of that idea of welfare was 645 00:38:03,036 --> 00:38:07,196 Speaker 1: also brought into this of you know, this this hotbudon 646 00:38:07,196 --> 00:38:10,116 Speaker 1: issue right at this moment, of whether it's at a 647 00:38:10,156 --> 00:38:14,156 Speaker 1: sapping initiative or whether we should actually invest more in people. 648 00:38:15,436 --> 00:38:20,716 Speaker 1: All right, So the Jeffersons your book hilarious. I can 649 00:38:20,796 --> 00:38:23,276 Speaker 1: hear of sort of this in between space. It's the 650 00:38:23,356 --> 00:38:27,156 Speaker 1: recipe for a lot of hilarious comedy. And this idea 651 00:38:27,156 --> 00:38:29,756 Speaker 1: of being a first as you were saying, do you 652 00:38:29,796 --> 00:38:32,836 Speaker 1: sort of revel in it for yourself or do you 653 00:38:32,836 --> 00:38:36,316 Speaker 1: start thinking about how you make seconds and thirds and 654 00:38:36,356 --> 00:38:39,756 Speaker 1: fourths and fifths and the community that you came from 655 00:38:39,756 --> 00:38:43,356 Speaker 1: that you also lift up. Is that also the tension? 656 00:38:43,476 --> 00:38:45,276 Speaker 1: I think all of that, I think I think it's 657 00:38:45,356 --> 00:38:48,396 Speaker 1: it's exactly what you just said. And for the Jeffersons, 658 00:38:48,516 --> 00:38:51,996 Speaker 1: they are a vehicle ultimately for the writers to explore 659 00:38:52,036 --> 00:38:53,796 Speaker 1: like we don't really know how this is going to 660 00:38:53,876 --> 00:38:57,156 Speaker 1: work out, and that's what's so I mean, fun is 661 00:38:57,156 --> 00:38:59,356 Speaker 1: not quite the word. It's kind of brilliant about the show, 662 00:38:59,396 --> 00:39:03,436 Speaker 1: Like instead of just writing something that wasn't real, they 663 00:39:03,476 --> 00:39:07,716 Speaker 1: actually try to reflect the very conversations that people were 664 00:39:07,756 --> 00:39:12,076 Speaker 1: having in these SCEs of a new Black elite or 665 00:39:12,156 --> 00:39:14,356 Speaker 1: new Black middle class, and the extent to which they 666 00:39:14,396 --> 00:39:18,236 Speaker 1: owed working class people anything including jobs or whether they 667 00:39:18,276 --> 00:39:20,876 Speaker 1: blame them for not moving on up like they did. 668 00:39:21,196 --> 00:39:23,396 Speaker 1: All of it is on full view in this show, 669 00:39:23,476 --> 00:39:27,196 Speaker 1: and I would say handled with a lot of smartsum 670 00:39:27,876 --> 00:39:31,156 Speaker 1: and a lot of effective writing. All right, man, Well, 671 00:39:31,156 --> 00:39:33,476 Speaker 1: then I need to come back to this question that 672 00:39:33,516 --> 00:39:37,236 Speaker 1: I raised at the beginning, when I about the popularity 673 00:39:37,236 --> 00:39:40,036 Speaker 1: of these shows in this moment in America, when this 674 00:39:40,116 --> 00:39:45,716 Speaker 1: is what mainstream America wanted to see. Crazy, This is 675 00:39:45,756 --> 00:39:48,476 Speaker 1: what America in the seventies and into the eighties. They 676 00:39:48,516 --> 00:39:53,356 Speaker 1: wanted to spend their evenings with issues of race and 677 00:39:53,476 --> 00:39:57,196 Speaker 1: class and questioning all these all these things that are 678 00:39:57,196 --> 00:40:00,636 Speaker 1: going on in the country. What happened? You know? Like 679 00:40:00,636 --> 00:40:03,076 Speaker 1: like that that even to laugh at these things that 680 00:40:03,116 --> 00:40:07,196 Speaker 1: they kind of disappear. And the shows, even the interracial 681 00:40:07,236 --> 00:40:09,836 Speaker 1: shows that are on the air all the time we're 682 00:40:09,876 --> 00:40:12,596 Speaker 1: teenagers and this is off the air, are not like 683 00:40:12,716 --> 00:40:16,356 Speaker 1: this at all. You know, Miami Vice, there's a black 684 00:40:16,356 --> 00:40:18,276 Speaker 1: and white lead. They don't ever talk about race. They 685 00:40:18,276 --> 00:40:20,076 Speaker 1: don't talk about sort of that dynamic at all. It 686 00:40:20,156 --> 00:40:23,676 Speaker 1: just exists. Yeah, The Cosby Show doesn't talk about class 687 00:40:23,716 --> 00:40:29,956 Speaker 1: at all. You know, it's it's it's invisible. They just are. Obviously, 688 00:40:29,996 --> 00:40:31,676 Speaker 1: I know the answer to a lot of what happened, 689 00:40:31,876 --> 00:40:35,036 Speaker 1: but it still boggles the mind. Yeah. I think it's 690 00:40:35,036 --> 00:40:36,796 Speaker 1: a really good point. And I think it is the 691 00:40:37,396 --> 00:40:41,036 Speaker 1: emergence of a massive cultural shift that comes with the 692 00:40:41,076 --> 00:40:46,676 Speaker 1: Reagan era, a kind of shift that to really focus 693 00:40:46,676 --> 00:40:50,636 Speaker 1: on Reagan as a singular politician who first coined the 694 00:40:50,636 --> 00:40:57,356 Speaker 1: phrase make America Great, essentially whitewashed the politics of the nation. 695 00:40:58,676 --> 00:41:01,716 Speaker 1: Here was a guy who essentially was an early version 696 00:41:01,756 --> 00:41:04,956 Speaker 1: of anti CRTs, like, you know, this country is not 697 00:41:05,076 --> 00:41:08,436 Speaker 1: what the socialists left is telling you it is, this 698 00:41:08,516 --> 00:41:11,916 Speaker 1: is the greatest nation on earth. And he won over 699 00:41:13,036 --> 00:41:16,436 Speaker 1: the archie bunkers of the world, who were no longer 700 00:41:16,556 --> 00:41:20,396 Speaker 1: feeling conflicted or guilty or even having a kind of 701 00:41:20,476 --> 00:41:24,356 Speaker 1: moral obligation to make real the promises of the civil 702 00:41:24,396 --> 00:41:27,436 Speaker 1: rights movement. In fact, they got angrier and more hostile, 703 00:41:27,876 --> 00:41:32,196 Speaker 1: and so too did the nation's politics. And the talk 704 00:41:32,236 --> 00:41:34,676 Speaker 1: about Coleman Harris, the black guy in that scene that 705 00:41:34,716 --> 00:41:38,076 Speaker 1: we just heard you know, this notion of people being 706 00:41:38,076 --> 00:41:43,396 Speaker 1: on welfare as being lazy embodied the entire Republican revolution 707 00:41:43,436 --> 00:41:45,476 Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, and I think 708 00:41:45,516 --> 00:41:51,756 Speaker 1: TV followed. Man, these shows tell us about the history 709 00:41:51,756 --> 00:41:58,356 Speaker 1: of America. When we make our ap sitcom history culture class, 710 00:41:58,596 --> 00:42:01,996 Speaker 1: that's gonna get banned in twenty five states. This is 711 00:42:02,076 --> 00:42:04,116 Speaker 1: going to be. This is going to be, you know, 712 00:42:04,396 --> 00:42:06,156 Speaker 1: part of the curriculum. This is going to be first 713 00:42:06,156 --> 00:42:08,716 Speaker 1: semester and second semester. I think I already saw that 714 00:42:08,796 --> 00:42:12,716 Speaker 1: the head band Sandford and Son and uh and the 715 00:42:12,796 --> 00:42:16,876 Speaker 1: Jeffersons from the existing APFM studies. Correct, man, that's why 716 00:42:16,876 --> 00:42:18,596 Speaker 1: we're going to get it in the secret ways. That's 717 00:42:18,636 --> 00:42:20,356 Speaker 1: why you gotta come to Some of my best Friends 718 00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:22,716 Speaker 1: Are to get the real stuff. That's right. All right, man, 719 00:42:22,756 --> 00:42:24,476 Speaker 1: Well this was a whole lot of fun and I 720 00:42:24,596 --> 00:42:26,836 Speaker 1: learned a whole lot. I'm going to go watch the 721 00:42:26,876 --> 00:42:29,636 Speaker 1: Jeffersons and I'm gonna watch now. I'm hooked on Sandford 722 00:42:29,636 --> 00:42:32,396 Speaker 1: and then again I gotta go. We've been watching it 723 00:42:32,476 --> 00:42:37,036 Speaker 1: all dud dude, all right, man, love you all right, 724 00:42:37,476 --> 00:42:41,236 Speaker 1: Love you too. Some of my Best Friends Are is 725 00:42:41,236 --> 00:42:44,636 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and 726 00:42:44,756 --> 00:42:47,796 Speaker 1: hosted by me Khalil, Jibron Muhammed and my best friend 727 00:42:47,996 --> 00:42:51,676 Speaker 1: Ben Austin. This show is produced by Lucy Sullivan. It's 728 00:42:51,796 --> 00:42:55,396 Speaker 1: edited by Sarah Knicks with help from Keishow Williams. Our 729 00:42:55,516 --> 00:43:01,796 Speaker 1: engineer is Amanda Kawan, and our managing producer is Constanza Gyardo. 730 00:43:02,076 --> 00:43:06,476 Speaker 1: At Pushkin thanks to le Tall, Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, 731 00:43:06,836 --> 00:43:12,396 Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg. Our 732 00:43:12,476 --> 00:43:16,556 Speaker 1: theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the brilliant 733 00:43:16,596 --> 00:43:20,196 Speaker 1: Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely want 734 00:43:20,196 --> 00:43:22,716 Speaker 1: to check out his music at his website Avery R. 735 00:43:22,836 --> 00:43:26,116 Speaker 1: Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social 736 00:43:26,156 --> 00:43:29,316 Speaker 1: platforms at Pushkin Pods and you can sign up for 737 00:43:29,356 --> 00:43:33,676 Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 738 00:43:33,956 --> 00:43:37,996 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 739 00:43:38,076 --> 00:43:40,876 Speaker 1: like to listen. And if you like our show, please 740 00:43:40,916 --> 00:43:43,676 Speaker 1: give us a five star rating and a review and listen. 741 00:43:43,716 --> 00:43:45,076 Speaker 1: Even if you don't like it, give it a five 742 00:43:45,116 --> 00:43:48,036 Speaker 1: star rating and a review, and please tell all of 743 00:43:48,076 --> 00:44:02,596 Speaker 1: your best friends about it. Thank you. Then that was 744 00:44:02,636 --> 00:44:04,876 Speaker 1: a lot of fun, man, that was so much fun. 745 00:44:05,556 --> 00:44:09,756 Speaker 1: This guy got serious savery for the type, serious laugh 746 00:44:09,836 --> 00:44:14,796 Speaker 1: therapy on that. All right. M.