1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:11,750 Speaker 1: Alisa Donovan. 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:16,180 Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,940 Speaker 1: Alisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,270 Speaker 2: For nearly two decades, a mysterious bomber terrorized the country, 6 00:00:24,690 --> 00:00:28,450 Speaker 2: sending increasingly sophisticated bombs through the mail and leaving them 7 00:00:28,490 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: in public places. Three people were killed, more than 20 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,540 Speaker 2: were injured, and for years the FBI had no idea 9 00:00:35,659 --> 00:00:38,740 Speaker 2: who they were looking for. The man behind the bombs 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,570 Speaker 2: was Ted Kaczynski, a former math prodigy who entered. 11 00:00:42,350 --> 00:00:44,229 Speaker 1: Harvard at just 16 years old. 12 00:00:45,010 --> 00:00:48,290 Speaker 2: He later abandoned society for a tiny cabin in Montana 13 00:00:48,450 --> 00:00:52,010 Speaker 2: and became one of the most notorious domestic terrorists in 14 00:00:52,050 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: American history. The new Netflix film Unabomber, starring Russell Crowe, 15 00:00:57,260 --> 00:01:00,970 Speaker 2: Shailene Woodley, and Jacob Tremblay, goes back to Ted's years 16 00:01:01,030 --> 00:01:05,869 Speaker 2: at Harvard, where he participated in controversial psychological experiments and 17 00:01:05,970 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: also brings to life the massive FBI hunt that eventually 18 00:01:09,540 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: brought him down. Joining me today is the film's director, 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,530 Speaker 2: Janusz Metz. Janusz, welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so 20 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:21,550 Speaker 2: much for being here. I absolutely loved the film. It's 21 00:01:21,930 --> 00:01:26,310 Speaker 2: so powerful and You know, it's funny to use words 22 00:01:26,330 --> 00:01:28,810 Speaker 2: like beautiful for something like this, but it is. It's 23 00:01:28,890 --> 00:01:33,179 Speaker 2: really so specifically directed and curated, so it's quite powerful. 24 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: For people who. 25 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,140 Speaker 2: Haven't seen it yet, can you explain what part of 26 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 2: the Unabomber story that you wanted to tell? 27 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:45,270 Speaker 3: Well, this is really about the years when he went 28 00:01:45,310 --> 00:01:47,790 Speaker 3: to Harvard. He was accepted into Harvard at the age 29 00:01:47,830 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 3: of 16 because he was a maths prodigy. And he was, 30 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: you know, had a very high IQ. And when he 31 00:02:01,980 --> 00:02:06,690 Speaker 3: was at Harvard, he got enrolled into these experiments in 32 00:02:06,710 --> 00:02:11,450 Speaker 3: sort of, you know, mind control and brainwash that was 33 00:02:11,490 --> 00:02:14,250 Speaker 3: conducted by the head of the psychology department at the time, 34 00:02:14,340 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 3: Professor Henry Murray. And the film really centers on that 35 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 3: on the one hand while cross-cutting to the sort of 36 00:02:22,990 --> 00:02:28,750 Speaker 3: famous manhunt of the Unabomber and sort of the conclusion 37 00:02:28,780 --> 00:02:31,779 Speaker 3: of that in the mid-90s when they caught him out 38 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 3: in his cabin in Montana. 39 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was unfamiliar with the Murray experiments, which 40 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:39,980 Speaker 2: is what they are. 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,060 Speaker 1: Referred to as. 42 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: And can you talk a little bit about how much 43 00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:49,220 Speaker 2: you think those actually affected Ted? 44 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,750 Speaker 3: Well, it's a good question because we don't know for sure. 45 00:02:54,389 --> 00:02:57,669 Speaker 3: I mean, and Ted himself denied that they had any 46 00:02:57,730 --> 00:03:03,070 Speaker 3: real impact on his, you know, involvement. I mean, I'm 47 00:03:03,110 --> 00:03:05,609 Speaker 3: not sure that Ted is the best sort of truth 48 00:03:05,669 --> 00:03:11,030 Speaker 3: victim of his own, you know, mental evolution. Right. And 49 00:03:11,220 --> 00:03:12,170 Speaker 3: certainly there is a. 50 00:03:15,139 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 3: You know, there's been some really interesting research and been 51 00:03:17,910 --> 00:03:20,770 Speaker 3: some really interesting writing about the Murray experiments and how 52 00:03:20,790 --> 00:03:26,510 Speaker 3: they actually affected Ted. And there's been other, you know, 53 00:03:27,750 --> 00:03:30,190 Speaker 3: people that were part of those experiments that have talked 54 00:03:30,250 --> 00:03:34,389 Speaker 3: about them and have talked about sort of how it 55 00:03:34,430 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 3: affected them, how they developed sort of anxiety symptoms and 56 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 3: stuff like that in the wake of those experiments. 57 00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 58 00:03:43,370 --> 00:03:45,790 Speaker 3: And they were designed to break you down. They were 59 00:03:45,810 --> 00:03:50,170 Speaker 3: designed to break down your constitution as a human being. Right. 60 00:03:51,290 --> 00:03:55,890 Speaker 3: In order to, you know, impose a new sort of mindset. 61 00:03:56,890 --> 00:04:00,410 Speaker 3: You know, it's the early days of what became the 62 00:04:00,550 --> 00:04:02,090 Speaker 3: MKUltra experiment. 63 00:04:02,190 --> 00:04:03,610 Speaker 1: Right. 64 00:04:04,010 --> 00:04:11,620 Speaker 3: And the CIA apparently at that time was very... interested 65 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,010 Speaker 3: in figuring out if there was ways to affect and 66 00:04:15,050 --> 00:04:21,410 Speaker 3: control people's thinking. It was all infused by the fear 67 00:04:21,430 --> 00:04:24,470 Speaker 3: of communism at the end of the day. Right. How 68 00:04:24,510 --> 00:04:27,060 Speaker 3: can we avoid people being communists? How can we potentially 69 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 3: revert communists into not being communists? 70 00:04:30,020 --> 00:04:32,700 Speaker 2: It's really, and the film does such a great job 71 00:04:32,980 --> 00:04:39,830 Speaker 2: of juxtaposing that certainly nefarious kind of goal, in my opinion. 72 00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:45,550 Speaker 2: And then also simply being a 16-year-old boy who's trying 73 00:04:45,589 --> 00:04:47,250 Speaker 2: to figure out all the ins and outs of what 74 00:04:47,310 --> 00:04:51,250 Speaker 2: that is to be so accelerated as he was and 75 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: be in an environment that is a. 76 00:04:53,220 --> 00:04:54,940 Speaker 1: Pressure cooker in many ways. 77 00:04:56,779 --> 00:05:01,339 Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about Jacob Tremblay, who's so wonderful. 78 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: He's like an otherworldly presence, this kid. 79 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 2: He's so I mean, he's not really a child anymore, 80 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:13,060 Speaker 2: but he's really powerful. And how did that come together, 81 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: the whole cast, really? 82 00:05:14,220 --> 00:05:16,220 Speaker 1: Because everyone's terrific. 83 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 3: It's interesting because, I mean, Jacob was the first piece 84 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,730 Speaker 3: of the puzzle, right? We have to find who can 85 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:28,070 Speaker 3: play Ted Kaczynski at 16. He's not the Unabomber. He's 86 00:05:28,130 --> 00:05:33,610 Speaker 3: a kid who becomes the Unabomber. And Jacob was brought 87 00:05:33,630 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 3: to my attention And I was like, okay, I've seen Room. 88 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:43,369 Speaker 3: One of my daughter's favorite films is Luca. And I'm like, okay, 89 00:05:43,550 --> 00:05:46,750 Speaker 3: what does this kid have? Let me see some excerpts. 90 00:05:47,310 --> 00:05:50,610 Speaker 3: Is there any material of his more recent work that 91 00:05:50,650 --> 00:05:52,510 Speaker 3: hasn't maybe come out yet that I can take a 92 00:05:52,529 --> 00:05:56,550 Speaker 3: look at? And I saw some takes of stuff that 93 00:05:56,589 --> 00:05:58,540 Speaker 3: he's done in recent years that hadn't come out at 94 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,780 Speaker 3: the time. And I thought, well, he's really interesting. I 95 00:06:01,820 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 3: could see that there was someone who was looking for 96 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,010 Speaker 3: authenticity and had a screen presence and a lack of 97 00:06:11,110 --> 00:06:17,890 Speaker 3: vanity on screen that felt mesmerizing to me. So I 98 00:06:17,950 --> 00:06:22,490 Speaker 3: met Jacob and I didn't have to talk to Jacob 99 00:06:22,510 --> 00:06:25,210 Speaker 3: for a very long time before I had a very 100 00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:30,390 Speaker 3: strong gut feeling that he was the one. Something about 101 00:06:30,510 --> 00:06:36,570 Speaker 3: his curiosity and his humbleness and also like, it's kind 102 00:06:36,589 --> 00:06:40,430 Speaker 3: of like fresh face youth. I thought we needed for Ted. 103 00:06:40,450 --> 00:06:43,470 Speaker 1: So there's a real purity. 104 00:06:43,490 --> 00:06:46,299 Speaker 3: I came off that meeting and I told the producer 105 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,740 Speaker 3: straight away. I mean, I don't have to meet anyone else. 106 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: I want Jacob for this. So I never thought of 107 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,100 Speaker 3: anyone else, but Jacob for this role. 108 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: Wow. I mean, he really is. 109 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: There's such a purity about him and you really do 110 00:06:59,690 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: see the transformation in that. you know, his, his, again, 111 00:07:04,660 --> 00:07:07,620 Speaker 2: that kind of flipping back and forth between this highly 112 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,620 Speaker 2: intelligent human being and still this little boy. 113 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,700 Speaker 3: It's such a delicate time in any person's development. Like 114 00:07:16,260 --> 00:07:18,580 Speaker 3: I think he just, he just turned 19 when we 115 00:07:18,610 --> 00:07:22,190 Speaker 3: were shooting the movie and now he's already, you know, 116 00:07:22,210 --> 00:07:27,350 Speaker 3: you know, two years after, you know, he's grown up and, and, 117 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:31,450 Speaker 3: and he's older. Uh, and, uh, I think he could 118 00:07:31,470 --> 00:07:35,050 Speaker 3: still pull it off, you know, but we certainly got 119 00:07:35,070 --> 00:07:35,930 Speaker 3: him at the right moment. 120 00:07:36,290 --> 00:07:37,810 Speaker 1: Yeah. 121 00:07:38,030 --> 00:07:41,540 Speaker 2: So Ted, getting back to Ted as the person, he 122 00:07:41,630 --> 00:07:45,780 Speaker 2: went from being a Harvard-educated mathematician and a Berkeley professor 123 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,540 Speaker 2: to living largely. 124 00:07:48,140 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: Alone in a tiny cabin in Montana. 125 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: What did you come to understand about that transformation? 126 00:07:55,300 --> 00:08:08,700 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, it's a very complex and sort of interrogation. 127 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,710 Speaker 3: You go on a deep dive with the psychology of 128 00:08:11,770 --> 00:08:17,330 Speaker 3: this kid. We're doing our best to try and understand 129 00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:20,310 Speaker 3: who he was and maybe what compelled him to become 130 00:08:20,430 --> 00:08:26,220 Speaker 3: what he became. And it's a piece of narrative fiction 131 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 3: that we're trying to contribute to the debate. It's It's 132 00:08:29,260 --> 00:08:36,300 Speaker 3: not the sort of exhaustive maybe look at Ted, but 133 00:08:36,340 --> 00:08:41,250 Speaker 3: I think it contributes. And I think one thing that 134 00:08:41,350 --> 00:08:48,270 Speaker 3: fascinated me was he's someone who probably was a very 135 00:08:48,309 --> 00:08:54,189 Speaker 3: sensitive kid, probably had some sort of personality disorder. He 136 00:08:54,230 --> 00:09:02,610 Speaker 3: was certainly a loner, socially awkward. And he's also super bright. 137 00:09:03,490 --> 00:09:06,730 Speaker 3: So he, it's very hard for him to find, you know, 138 00:09:07,250 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 3: friends and companionship and, and he becomes increasingly isolated. And, 139 00:09:14,500 --> 00:09:19,100 Speaker 3: and I think I like to, I, I believe that 140 00:09:19,140 --> 00:09:22,030 Speaker 3: there was something in Ted that made him think, look, I'm, I, 141 00:09:23,780 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 3: if the world doesn't want to, have anything to do 142 00:09:26,980 --> 00:09:28,620 Speaker 3: with me. I'm going to go live in the woods 143 00:09:28,660 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 3: and I'm going to take my revenge. And I think 144 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 3: that's part of the tragedy of the story. That's part 145 00:09:34,340 --> 00:09:36,340 Speaker 3: of something, part of what we can learn from the 146 00:09:36,380 --> 00:09:41,660 Speaker 3: story is that social isolation and radicalization go hand in 147 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 3: hand with Ted Kaczynski. 148 00:09:58,550 --> 00:10:01,890 Speaker 1: The bombing campaign began. in 1978 when he was 36. 149 00:10:01,890 --> 00:10:06,870 Speaker 2: So what did you come to understand about why he 150 00:10:06,910 --> 00:10:11,030 Speaker 2: had turned to violence by that point? Were there specifics 151 00:10:11,070 --> 00:10:14,340 Speaker 2: or just kind of the general progression, you think? 152 00:10:14,890 --> 00:10:18,329 Speaker 3: I mean, our film... kind of leaves him when he 153 00:10:18,630 --> 00:10:21,510 Speaker 3: walks out of the gates of Harvard. And, you know, 154 00:10:21,530 --> 00:10:24,770 Speaker 3: the real life story, as you're kind of laying it 155 00:10:24,850 --> 00:10:28,229 Speaker 3: out here, there were many years from that moment until 156 00:10:28,250 --> 00:10:34,220 Speaker 3: he actually started bombing people. Now, we're saying with this 157 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 3: film that there was damage done to Ted Kaczynski that 158 00:10:39,179 --> 00:10:42,059 Speaker 3: probably put him on the track to becoming one. I 159 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 3: think there are multiple factors that that contributed to that. 160 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 3: I don't think it was the Murray experiments on their own. 161 00:10:48,980 --> 00:10:50,420 Speaker 1: Solely, right. 162 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 3: But as a filmmaker, I think it was interesting to 163 00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:58,620 Speaker 3: leave him at that moment where he kind of jumps 164 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: off the cliff into the abyss and into that darkness. 165 00:11:03,420 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: And you say, wow, they hurt a child. 166 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,189 Speaker 2: Yes, in that period when they're you know, you're supposed 167 00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:16,130 Speaker 2: to be kind of really figuring out who you are and, and, um, 168 00:11:16,270 --> 00:11:18,209 Speaker 2: understanding where you fit in the world and what you're 169 00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: good at and what you care about and all the, and, and, 170 00:11:21,980 --> 00:11:25,179 Speaker 2: you know, connecting with people. And if you don't have that, 171 00:11:25,220 --> 00:11:27,059 Speaker 2: if you actually have the reverse, it's. 172 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,300 Speaker 3: And, and I think it's also, I mean, Ted came from, 173 00:11:32,179 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 3: you know, a working class background. He skips two years 174 00:11:35,570 --> 00:11:38,450 Speaker 3: of school because he's so smart that I keep bumping 175 00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:43,530 Speaker 3: him up. So he, So he feels out of place. 176 00:11:43,790 --> 00:11:49,250 Speaker 3: And he arrives at Harvard. And then suddenly, this professor 177 00:11:49,309 --> 00:11:53,550 Speaker 3: shines a light on him. And it becomes, in our narrative, 178 00:11:54,140 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: and I mean, this is obviously like our sort of 179 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 3: appropriation to the story. And we're trying to serve sort 180 00:12:03,740 --> 00:12:10,050 Speaker 3: of a dramatic justice to and and put that on 181 00:12:10,070 --> 00:12:13,150 Speaker 3: the table as a, as a sort of poetic expression 182 00:12:13,290 --> 00:12:18,290 Speaker 3: or an artful expression or exploration into the story that, 183 00:12:19,429 --> 00:12:22,890 Speaker 3: you know, he was, you know, you can say narratively speaking, 184 00:12:22,929 --> 00:12:26,260 Speaker 3: he found a new father and that father deceived him. 185 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:27,020 Speaker 4: Yep. 186 00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:28,980 Speaker 1: I mean, that is very much how it feels. 187 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 188 00:12:30,500 --> 00:12:32,100 Speaker 1: As a viewer, you are, you. 189 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,340 Speaker 2: Feel as though, oh, he's found, he finally found this 190 00:12:35,380 --> 00:12:39,449 Speaker 2: kind of mentor that can help him, understand his existence. 191 00:12:40,309 --> 00:12:45,620 Speaker 2: And then it's quite the opposite. It's very disturbing. 192 00:12:46,340 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 3: In that respect, it's a film. People can look at 193 00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 3: that story and find their own, explore it in their 194 00:12:55,020 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: own ways and discuss it. But I think there's narrative 195 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,710 Speaker 3: truth to that. And it's not only about Ted Kaczynski. 196 00:13:02,780 --> 00:13:07,589 Speaker 3: It's about a universal story about what it what it 197 00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 3: means for us to belong in the world and feel 198 00:13:10,030 --> 00:13:12,220 Speaker 3: like we have a place in the world. And, and 199 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,860 Speaker 3: I think, you know, if the world tells you, we don't, 200 00:13:18,059 --> 00:13:20,460 Speaker 3: you know, we don't condone who you are. We don't 201 00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:23,650 Speaker 3: like what you have to say. We think you're weird. 202 00:13:24,190 --> 00:13:27,709 Speaker 3: At one point, maybe you take that to heart and say, well, 203 00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:29,970 Speaker 3: let me be that guy. But now I'm going to 204 00:13:30,290 --> 00:13:34,010 Speaker 3: start bombing all of you because I, you know, I'm right. 205 00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:39,870 Speaker 3: And I think that, that break, is where it becomes 206 00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:45,900 Speaker 3: very dark and very tragical. And I honestly think it's 207 00:13:45,980 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: also part of the contribution of this story to understand 208 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 3: aspects of things that are going on now in the 209 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 3: climate that we're in right now. Yes. People do live 210 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:02,430 Speaker 3: in echo chambers. People become polarized. It's part of the 211 00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:04,930 Speaker 3: moment that we're living in. Absolutely. 212 00:14:05,190 --> 00:14:05,770 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 213 00:14:05,790 --> 00:14:09,460 Speaker 2: I mean, and we've seen many parallel things to this 214 00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: with disenfranchised kids, school shootings, all those sorts of things 215 00:14:14,260 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: like that. 216 00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: It's extraordinarily important. I believe that we are talking about 217 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:21,100 Speaker 1: these things. 218 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: And this is one of the reasons that I think 219 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:29,150 Speaker 2: this movie is so, it's just so important to Because, 220 00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:31,610 Speaker 2: you know, we put these things in boxes. 221 00:14:32,090 --> 00:14:33,340 Speaker 1: I mean, I remember this. 222 00:14:33,820 --> 00:14:36,660 Speaker 2: I'm 55, so how old was I when this happened? 223 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,420 Speaker 2: But I remember this and thinking, oh, you just got 224 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,420 Speaker 2: the information. Oh, this crazy guy who lived in a cabin. 225 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 226 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: End of the story, you know? 227 00:14:45,710 --> 00:14:46,590 Speaker 4: Exactly. 228 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:48,730 Speaker 3: And that's not enough for us. 229 00:14:49,190 --> 00:14:49,650 Speaker 4: Correct. 230 00:14:50,010 --> 00:14:53,750 Speaker 3: We need to find that and see, you know, yes, 231 00:14:54,210 --> 00:14:56,980 Speaker 3: Ted Kaczynski, you know, was. 232 00:14:59,410 --> 00:15:03,580 Speaker 3: Probably mentally ill. He lived in a woods by himself. 233 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,180 Speaker 3: He did these horrendous acts. We can't excuse that. We 234 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,420 Speaker 3: can never condone it as much as we can look 235 00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:15,020 Speaker 3: into his thinking, his manifesto, his life story, and try 236 00:15:15,070 --> 00:15:18,090 Speaker 3: and learn from that. Obviously there's, there's a rupture and 237 00:15:18,110 --> 00:15:21,170 Speaker 3: the disjuncture, but to not just have the monster, I think, 238 00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:25,330 Speaker 3: you know, we can only learn and get better if 239 00:15:25,390 --> 00:15:27,890 Speaker 3: we try to learn from these stories and say, yes, 240 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 3: there was, there are reasons that, you know, um, this 241 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:37,620 Speaker 3: kind of thing can happen. 242 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 2: So he, um, Ted was spotted leaving a bomb in Utah, 243 00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: which is the first time that that's when they developed that, the, 244 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,620 Speaker 2: the sketch that became very famous of him. And, um, 245 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,190 Speaker 2: but after that attack, he stopped bombing for more than 246 00:15:55,290 --> 00:15:59,330 Speaker 2: six years and, um, Did you learn anything while making 247 00:15:59,370 --> 00:16:02,980 Speaker 2: the film that helped explain why he disappeared for so long? 248 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,980 Speaker 3: Oh, it's been a deep sort of dive into the 249 00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 3: Ted Kaczynski story and particularly also with the writers, Sam 250 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:19,690 Speaker 3: and Nelson, who, you know, they also went to Harvard 251 00:16:19,710 --> 00:16:22,050 Speaker 3: and had a vested interest in telling this story. And 252 00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:27,020 Speaker 3: they certainly did a lot of digging into this. But 253 00:16:27,060 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 3: I do think there's an evolution in the guy where 254 00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 3: he became more and more prolific in creating these bombs. 255 00:16:35,540 --> 00:16:42,270 Speaker 3: And in the beginning, he didn't claim lives. His axe 256 00:16:42,290 --> 00:16:44,150 Speaker 3: didn't claim any lives. That came later. The better he 257 00:16:44,190 --> 00:16:47,250 Speaker 3: became at doing that. So he was on a descent 258 00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 3: into that very dark place. And I don't think... it's 259 00:16:55,500 --> 00:17:01,030 Speaker 3: probably just an expression of, you know, the trajectory he 260 00:17:01,070 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 3: was on. Right. And then it intensified and he did it, 261 00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:07,450 Speaker 3: he did it again. There's certainly a lot of evidence 262 00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:12,740 Speaker 3: to the fact that he got a lot of, you know, 263 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:20,140 Speaker 3: satisfaction and pleasure from his father. Right. Right. That's obviously where, 264 00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:25,090 Speaker 3: you know, he... We can put him on the same 265 00:17:25,150 --> 00:17:30,900 Speaker 3: shelf as a lot of other serial killers. There's that 266 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 3: aspect to it. I think, you know, although it's not 267 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,660 Speaker 3: at the center of our focus point of the story, 268 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,010 Speaker 3: I don't think we're also not shying away from that fact. 269 00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:48,740 Speaker 1: Yes, right. Um, Shailene Woodley, who's also so terrific, uh, 270 00:17:48,820 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: plays FBI. 271 00:17:49,859 --> 00:17:54,050 Speaker 2: Agent Joanne Miller, and she gives us the investigative side 272 00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:57,869 Speaker 2: of the story. Is Joanne a real investigator or a composite? 273 00:17:58,109 --> 00:18:02,170 Speaker 3: Joanne Miller character is a composite. Uh, I mean, there 274 00:18:02,210 --> 00:18:06,610 Speaker 3: was a Unabombe task force, uh, that worked for, you know, 275 00:18:06,650 --> 00:18:09,690 Speaker 3: what's still, I believe the longest and most expensive manhunt 276 00:18:09,790 --> 00:18:13,550 Speaker 3: in the history of the FBI. And they were, you know, 277 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,659 Speaker 3: so many people working on, you know, the pursuit of 278 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 3: the Unabomber. And it's a very rich and complex and 279 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,380 Speaker 3: deep story. What for our purposes, we needed to condensate 280 00:18:27,460 --> 00:18:33,570 Speaker 3: that into moments that felt like pressure points that we 281 00:18:33,609 --> 00:18:39,810 Speaker 3: could use dramatically and narratively to talk about, you know, 282 00:18:41,010 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 3: Ted and Ted's story. So we're not, We haven't made 283 00:18:45,540 --> 00:18:50,060 Speaker 3: a documentary about the Unabombed Task Force and Ted Kaczynski. 284 00:18:51,220 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 3: We made our version of the story. And I think 285 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:59,790 Speaker 3: what was important for me was the Joanne Miller character 286 00:19:00,390 --> 00:19:07,790 Speaker 3: is someone who is an empathetic investigator. She comes from linguistics. 287 00:19:08,350 --> 00:19:14,750 Speaker 3: She uses Ted's words to understand Who is this guy 288 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:18,470 Speaker 3: that we're looking for? What happened to him? So in 289 00:19:18,510 --> 00:19:23,179 Speaker 3: a way, she gives us the segue into the past 290 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 3: and understanding Ted Kaczynski. Right. There's not a real life 291 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,129 Speaker 3: Joanne Miller. She's an invention of this story. 292 00:19:31,150 --> 00:19:31,230 Speaker 1: Yes. 293 00:19:31,410 --> 00:19:31,670 Speaker 3: Yes. 294 00:19:31,670 --> 00:19:50,330 Speaker 4: Well, ultimately, one of the biggest breaks. 295 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,850 Speaker 2: In the case does come from Ted's own words, and 296 00:19:51,869 --> 00:19:55,810 Speaker 2: the government supported publishing his manifesto partly in. 297 00:19:55,770 --> 00:19:57,859 Speaker 1: The hope that someone... That's how they found him. 298 00:19:57,869 --> 00:20:03,580 Speaker 3: His brother and his brother's wife recognized Ted's writing, and 299 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 3: they hired a lawyer to approach the FBI, and they 300 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 3: provided excerpts of... you know, writings that he had done 301 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 3: in the past. And they looked at that and they 302 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:20,620 Speaker 3: looked at the similarity of that. And that was kind 303 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,670 Speaker 3: of how they got to Ted Kaczynski at the end. 304 00:20:25,230 --> 00:20:25,530 Speaker 1: Right. 305 00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:30,070 Speaker 2: Do you think that Ted's determination to be heard was 306 00:20:30,150 --> 00:20:33,370 Speaker 2: ultimately sort of one of the things that brought him down? 307 00:20:33,390 --> 00:20:36,470 Speaker 3: I think so. I think he wanted to get a 308 00:20:36,490 --> 00:20:44,220 Speaker 3: message across. He was so good at you know, leaving 309 00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:47,980 Speaker 3: false trace, avoiding the investigation. 310 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:48,580 Speaker 4: That's right. 311 00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 3: Like he would do stuff like taping, you know, he 312 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 3: apparently had quite big feet, but he would like tape 313 00:20:57,820 --> 00:21:01,609 Speaker 3: smaller size shoes underneath his own shoes to like leave 314 00:21:01,850 --> 00:21:05,070 Speaker 3: false footprints. And he would like put false little leads 315 00:21:05,330 --> 00:21:09,510 Speaker 3: on letters and in fragments of his arms that would 316 00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 3: leave the investigation astray. And, and, So it wasn't until 317 00:21:13,780 --> 00:21:17,220 Speaker 3: he published his manifesto, which was the way he wanted 318 00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 3: to make a mark on the world. He wanted to 319 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,780 Speaker 3: be heard. He wanted to be taken seriously. 320 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 2: And you can imagine that satisfaction he's getting at pulling 321 00:21:28,460 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: the wool over everyone's eyes and sending these, for all 322 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 2: intents and purposes, the best people at their jobs, sending 323 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:37,660 Speaker 2: them to dead ends. 324 00:21:37,820 --> 00:21:41,050 Speaker 3: He was toying with the FBI. Yeah. Sure, and he 325 00:21:41,090 --> 00:21:44,210 Speaker 3: kept them running around in circles for 17 years. 326 00:21:46,430 --> 00:21:49,390 Speaker 2: So when the agents finally searched Ted's cabin, they found 327 00:21:49,730 --> 00:21:54,110 Speaker 2: bomb components, extensive writings in journals, and a completed bomb. 328 00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:57,469 Speaker 2: Was there anything about what they discovered inside that cabin 329 00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:59,730 Speaker 2: that particularly struck you? 330 00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:03,610 Speaker 3: It's about the fact that things fitted like a hand 331 00:22:03,670 --> 00:22:06,689 Speaker 3: in a glove, you know? He was the guy. He had. 332 00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:15,689 Speaker 3: All these books about bomb making, but also about radical 333 00:22:15,730 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: thinkers and environmental activism. And it informed his line of thinking. 334 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,460 Speaker 3: And then I think the fact that he had a 335 00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 3: live bomb in his cabin was also proof of the 336 00:22:28,260 --> 00:22:38,310 Speaker 3: fact that he was a compulsive person. you know, he, 337 00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:43,930 Speaker 3: it was part of his pleasure to, to blow, you know, 338 00:22:44,010 --> 00:22:45,550 Speaker 3: to blow people up basically. 339 00:22:46,050 --> 00:22:46,430 Speaker 2: Right. 340 00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:54,230 Speaker 3: And, and I think, I think there was a, you know, 341 00:22:55,910 --> 00:23:00,939 Speaker 3: he was looking for revenge for what happened to him, 342 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,139 Speaker 3: for being, for not being respected, for not being understood. 343 00:23:05,660 --> 00:23:09,790 Speaker 3: So there is this, you know, this, disruption. 344 00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 5: Or this kind of disjuncture between the kid that was 345 00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 5: smarter than everyone else, but that was kind of bullied. 346 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,420 Speaker 3: And was socially awkward. And then he was deceived by 347 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,980 Speaker 3: this professor that he came to think of as a 348 00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 3: father figure. And from that moment, he's alone. And he 349 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,270 Speaker 3: goes deeper and deeper. into that place where he decides 350 00:23:37,330 --> 00:23:40,870 Speaker 3: to take his revenge. Right. I think it's not just, 351 00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 3: he had an ideology, he had a mission, but he 352 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:52,260 Speaker 3: was also, you know, this deeply, um, hurt and troubled 353 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,379 Speaker 3: and individual. Right. Right. 354 00:23:55,780 --> 00:23:59,750 Speaker 2: I think we can't under, you know, stress that or 355 00:23:59,790 --> 00:24:02,170 Speaker 2: underestimate that enough. I think sometimes we do. 356 00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:05,590 Speaker 1: Um, I was going to ask you. 357 00:24:05,650 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: Working that balance in that because you can't normalize what 358 00:24:09,060 --> 00:24:14,340 Speaker 3: he did. And at the same time, I think there 359 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 3: is food for thought in what he did because it 360 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 3: not only tells us about what can happen to people 361 00:24:20,660 --> 00:24:27,060 Speaker 3: that suffer these kind of injuries as human beings that 362 00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 3: Ted did. And at the same time, his thinking was 363 00:24:33,859 --> 00:24:37,219 Speaker 3: you know, if you take the violence out of his thinking, 364 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 3: he wasn't irrational. There was, you know, it's interesting what 365 00:24:41,530 --> 00:24:44,330 Speaker 3: he has to say about technology and the alienation of, 366 00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:49,050 Speaker 3: you know, us as human beings. And, you know, we're 367 00:24:49,070 --> 00:24:52,609 Speaker 3: living now, we're looking, we're only scratching the surface of 368 00:24:52,690 --> 00:24:55,010 Speaker 3: what AI, et cetera, is going to do to us. And, 369 00:24:55,690 --> 00:24:59,890 Speaker 3: you know, tech corporations and social media, we have no 370 00:24:59,950 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 3: clue where that leaves us. And he's, that's what he's 371 00:25:04,609 --> 00:25:08,369 Speaker 3: reacting to that this sort of where does technology take us? 372 00:25:10,210 --> 00:25:13,430 Speaker 2: I couldn't help, but in watching this film, you can't help, 373 00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:16,870 Speaker 2: but think of all of those things. That is certainly 374 00:25:16,930 --> 00:25:20,350 Speaker 2: what I was partly thinking about in, in watching this. 375 00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:21,430 Speaker 1: And I was going to. 376 00:25:21,670 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 2: Going to ask, how do you navigate telling the origin 377 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: story of a terrorist without excusing the harm he caused? 378 00:25:29,580 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: But we were kind of answering that question and, I. 379 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: Think he had to start the film with one of 380 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 3: his victims and, you know, the absolute horrendous tragedy of that. Right. 381 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 3: Not trying to shy away or excuse him in any sense. 382 00:25:46,020 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: Right, right. 383 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,930 Speaker 3: His story is certainly, you know, interesting to introspect because 384 00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:56,670 Speaker 3: it does shine a light on a lot of things, 385 00:25:56,730 --> 00:26:00,250 Speaker 3: not only psychologically but also in terms of, you know, 386 00:26:00,270 --> 00:26:01,530 Speaker 3: the world we're living in today. 387 00:26:01,550 --> 00:26:02,230 Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 388 00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:04,730 Speaker 1: It really does. 389 00:26:05,670 --> 00:26:09,530 Speaker 2: Is there anything that you deliberately left out of Ted's 390 00:26:09,570 --> 00:26:11,530 Speaker 2: story for this film? 391 00:26:12,109 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: It's such an expansive, complex, and nuanced story that there 392 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,859 Speaker 3: was a lot of things that we just didn't have 393 00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:22,260 Speaker 3: the time to tell in the time span of a 394 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:28,550 Speaker 3: feature film. At the same time, you know, I like 395 00:26:28,570 --> 00:26:31,969 Speaker 3: the format of of a narrative feature, even though that 396 00:26:32,050 --> 00:26:35,790 Speaker 3: it kind of, it's kind of constraints you in terms 397 00:26:35,810 --> 00:26:38,590 Speaker 3: of time and, you know, the scope of the story. 398 00:26:38,650 --> 00:26:41,300 Speaker 3: But I, I think when you compress a story, hopefully, 399 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,540 Speaker 3: hopefully you're taking that, you know, complex piece of reality 400 00:26:45,580 --> 00:26:48,940 Speaker 3: that you could keep embroidering and you're pushing it into 401 00:26:49,020 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 3: something that becomes deeper and taller in a way. 402 00:26:52,220 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 4: Yes. 403 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes. The story is, you know. 404 00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:56,780 Speaker 1: That's a great analogy. 405 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,810 Speaker 3: Becomes more poignant in that sense. 406 00:27:01,090 --> 00:27:03,310 Speaker 2: And I also, you know, I want to say we, 407 00:27:04,270 --> 00:27:07,730 Speaker 2: I clearly talk a lot on this podcast about, we're 408 00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:11,470 Speaker 2: talking about people's trauma, sometimes usually the worst moments of 409 00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:12,590 Speaker 2: their lives, et cetera. 410 00:27:13,150 --> 00:27:15,610 Speaker 1: Um, but there is a real. 411 00:27:16,150 --> 00:27:21,700 Speaker 2: Um, importance to not exploiting these things, but actually helping 412 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 2: us to understand the human condition. And I feel like this, 413 00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:29,980 Speaker 2: this movie really does that, um, you know, there's a 414 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 2: fine line, but it's a very clear line of, you know, 415 00:27:35,980 --> 00:27:40,460 Speaker 2: helping us to understand as opposed to exploiting something, which is, 416 00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:41,990 Speaker 2: you know, not the case here. 417 00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:45,190 Speaker 3: And there's so many moments in Ted Kaczynski's story that 418 00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:48,730 Speaker 3: you could have like included. And it's also, it's also 419 00:27:48,750 --> 00:27:53,170 Speaker 3: a movie that invites people to go deeper on. So like, 420 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 3: you know, you guys are doing this podcast. That's part 421 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,980 Speaker 3: of that. And there's so much, interesting and rich material 422 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: out there that you can dive into if you want 423 00:28:03,340 --> 00:28:09,090 Speaker 3: to learn more about it. I mean, there is a moment, 424 00:28:09,109 --> 00:28:12,670 Speaker 3: I think it's the, you know, his brother David has 425 00:28:13,210 --> 00:28:16,350 Speaker 3: spoken a lot and his mother when she was still 426 00:28:16,410 --> 00:28:23,050 Speaker 3: alive and they talked about how when he was a child, 427 00:28:23,170 --> 00:28:26,310 Speaker 3: I think it was maybe three years old or something, 428 00:28:26,350 --> 00:28:29,550 Speaker 3: he was hospitalized. and he wasn't allowed to have visits. 429 00:28:31,109 --> 00:28:36,810 Speaker 3: And they say he changed after that. So maybe there's 430 00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:40,450 Speaker 3: something there where you could say, well, if you leave 431 00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:44,770 Speaker 3: a child without the love and care of a mother 432 00:28:44,890 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 3: and siblings and a father, et cetera, you may be 433 00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:53,100 Speaker 3: doing damage to a baby. Irreparable. Irreparable, yeah. Yeah. 434 00:28:54,860 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: Well, this has been such a pleasure to speak with you, Yanis, 435 00:28:58,750 --> 00:29:01,870 Speaker 2: that Unabomber is streaming on Netflix beginning September 25th. 436 00:29:02,190 --> 00:29:07,130 Speaker 1: And I always, again, I will repeat, these kinds of projects. 437 00:29:06,860 --> 00:29:07,620 Speaker 3: Are so important. 438 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:11,270 Speaker 2: And many people that I've spoken with have, Elizabeth Smart 439 00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:14,230 Speaker 2: said very specifically, why. 440 00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:17,190 Speaker 1: Did she tell her story, for example? And she said, we. 441 00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:20,700 Speaker 2: Do these things because sometimes telling a narrative story is 442 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: easier for people outside of it to digest and identify 443 00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:27,910 Speaker 2: with what's happening. And that's how we actually can understand 444 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,660 Speaker 2: and move forward, move through. So, um, this is a 445 00:29:30,660 --> 00:29:31,890 Speaker 2: great movie and I hope. 446 00:29:31,890 --> 00:29:32,410 Speaker 1: It does very well. 447 00:29:32,450 --> 00:29:32,620 Speaker 4: So much. 448 00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:34,580 Speaker 1: It was a pleasure talking to you.