Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukeleman.
Speaker 2: This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called
Speaker 2: The bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper,
Speaker 2: and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease
Speaker 2: podcast presented by f HF Gear, American Maid, purpose built
Speaker 2: hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged
Speaker 2: as the place.
Speaker 1: As we explore. Welcome to the bear Grease Podcast.
Speaker 3: Everyone, take one great.
Speaker 2: We have a great group of people here today. The
Speaker 2: bear Grease The Bear Grease Render Podcast is what this
Speaker 2: is where we talk about discuss the past, documentary style
Speaker 2: bear Grease podcast. I was asked recently why I would
Speaker 2: need to tell people that. I told the people that
Speaker 2: people come in by the droves.
Speaker 3: Yes, they do by the droves.
Speaker 2: They come in by the droves, and so we have
Speaker 2: to continue to tell people what they're listening to and
Speaker 2: even more complicated now in the Beargrease Feed we have
Speaker 2: Brent Reeves this country life podcast.
Speaker 3: Living Large Man. That's so much fun. Yeah. Man gets
Speaker 3: some good feedback too, it's really cool. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So you've done three Yeah, you've done three episodes. So
Speaker 2: what were the what were the episodes about?
Speaker 4: Well, the first one was just an introduction to me
Speaker 4: and just kind of like who I am. They would
Speaker 4: people would have been a little more in depth in
Speaker 4: what they would have got just listening to me ramble
Speaker 4: on on here. And the second one, I think it
Speaker 4: was about man, you tell.
Speaker 3: Me, yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 4: The second one was also a little bit about more
Speaker 4: about me, about the stuff that I've told my buckets
Speaker 4: and why maybe why I do that. And the last one,
Speaker 4: the most recent one that's out right now, is about
Speaker 4: turkey hunting mentors, mentors that influenced me that growing up
Speaker 4: in some lessons I learned from those folks and been
Speaker 4: really good, but a lot of fun good.
Speaker 2: So a lot of you probably would have heard this
Speaker 2: Country Life with Brent Reeves, but it's usually about twenty
Speaker 2: minutes long. It's a monologue, it's a little bit of comedy,
Speaker 2: a little bit of instruction, a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: It's lighthearted, a tear every now and then, a tear
Speaker 1: will stream down your cheek every now and then.
Speaker 2: And the way that I have described it, and maybe
Speaker 2: i've described it on this podcast before, if anybody had
Speaker 2: fault with the Bear Grease podcast, they could say that
Speaker 2: it's like a heavy listen like you have to work
Speaker 2: at it.
Speaker 1: I remember when we first did Bear Grease.
Speaker 5: It's exhausting one.
Speaker 2: Of the things.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of my one of the guys, my dear friends
Speaker 2: that media was like, I mean, it's like a pretty
Speaker 2: heavy listen, like you actually have to like it's not
Speaker 2: just easy listening music, you know, quote unquote.
Speaker 6: No kny here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would say this country life is easy listening.
Speaker 2: Not that it's light.
Speaker 3: You're here some whal and jail there maybe, but no.
Speaker 6: I think if if Steve Vanilla is the Julia Child.
Speaker 1: The campfire, the campfire per CBS.
Speaker 6: Britton Reeves is the Garrison Keller oh of the Wilderness podcast,
Speaker 6: Garrison Keller is Okay.
Speaker 3: Keeler, Garrison Keeler. There's some pronunciation in the family. He
Speaker 3: did a spoiler alert. He did a radio ship. He
Speaker 3: did a radio show called.
Speaker 1: Very Yeah.
Speaker 6: We're all the the Lake Wobegone.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so that's that's all.
Speaker 7: The women are strong, all the man are good looking,
Speaker 7: and all the children.
Speaker 3: Are above average.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, this country life has been really great. So Brent,
Speaker 2: thanks buddy, good job man. What did you tell the
Speaker 2: guy that asked you what the next week's podcast was going?
Speaker 1: To be about.
Speaker 4: I told him it was a two parter. The first
Speaker 4: part was none and the second part.
Speaker 3: Was bizz.
Speaker 4: He was he was trying to get some inside information.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 7: You can go to prison for that.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: So we don't know what the next episode is. I
Speaker 2: know what it's about. It's gonna be good.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the guests we have today, we have Ben Lagron,
Speaker 2: who has been here several times, longtime friend of mine. Uh,
Speaker 2: former history teacher h yeah, current childbirth.
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 2: That would be like if I said I'm a podcaster
Speaker 2: and all y'all went.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I just.
Speaker 5: Tell people I work for the internet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, balanced families, yeah great. And to
Speaker 2: to your left is my wife, doctor mister Nukelem, And
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 6: We need to clarify and nothing I care, and not
Speaker 6: that you ever need to call me doctor mister Nukelem again.
Speaker 6: But there's a lot of people on the internet right
Speaker 6: now that think that Clay.
Speaker 5: Good Job got the PhD.
Speaker 2: So Misty made a post the other day and what
Speaker 2: threw it off was the picture we were at her
Speaker 2: defense of her dissertation, and we were there with our
Speaker 2: whole family, and I took like a just like a
Speaker 2: selfie I was. I was the one holding the camera
Speaker 2: out and so I'm up close in the family's back
Speaker 2: a little bit. And that was the only picture we had,
Speaker 2: and so Misty posted that and said I got my
Speaker 2: I got my pH D.
Speaker 1: I finished it, and the internet lit up.
Speaker 2: My bone lit up people like, man, it's so great, Clay.
Speaker 1: No idea that you were even working.
Speaker 3: There's a prime example of how people look at that. Well,
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 4: I can't remember what Grady was in, but probably all
Speaker 4: of them. But at least once a year a teacher
Speaker 4: would give you a test that said, okay, follow these directions.
Speaker 4: Start at the beginning, read them all the way through.
Speaker 4: You probably did this, Ben, and then do what the
Speaker 4: directions say. Well, like fifteen to twenty minutes in, I'm working.
Speaker 4: I read about half the directions and I'm working my
Speaker 4: behind off, but I try to look and three cours
Speaker 4: that everybody's sitting there staring at the ceiling and looking.
Speaker 6: At the are getting up and walking out of the room.
Speaker 3: I'm like, golly, I got to hurry up.
Speaker 4: And if I just read the last line was like,
Speaker 4: do the first three problems then you can go.
Speaker 3: But I did.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I always I think it was a punishment
Speaker 6: for people who were, you know, motivated and driven like
Speaker 6: those that I always felt like the teacher was trying
Speaker 6: to trick us, like to just say, read all the
Speaker 6: directions first, and then it was a mistake to do
Speaker 6: all the work.
Speaker 4: That's the reason I can't go to that Kia store.
Speaker 4: I'm not reading those directions, buddy, he can get lost.
Speaker 2: Well, we'll come back to this. I just need to
Speaker 2: get through introductions here. I want to talk to you
Speaker 2: about your your PhD and what it's in. But to
Speaker 2: your left, we have coming back from He's it's been
Speaker 2: a while since he's doctor Mali.
Speaker 3: People. Yeah, it's good to be doctors.
Speaker 2: Malaka like his people only let him come here like
Speaker 2: like twice a year and you have to get on
Speaker 2: the schedule to get him here.
Speaker 8: But it's good to have you talk about August when
Speaker 8: we when we end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I'm still interested in uh a boat partner.
Speaker 8: Hey, my boys are getting older that I would I
Speaker 8: would consider it more than my son is like in
Speaker 8: love with outdoors and so let's talk in November twenty
Speaker 8: twenty six.
Speaker 2: November, all right, that's cool, that's cool, And Josh Landbridge
Speaker 2: spilmmaker who is now a boat owner and the captain.
Speaker 7: That's right, Captain land Bridge of the essay game. It
Speaker 7: is a trout fishing boat specially designed for our white
Speaker 7: river tail waters. Twenty one foot long, forty eight inch bottom,
Speaker 7: seventy two inch wide beam with a jet motor on
Speaker 7: the back.
Speaker 3: Speed.
Speaker 1: Pretty wet brand of boat.
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 7: It is an AAF so af was a was a
Speaker 7: brand of boats was made in Mountain Home back in
Speaker 7: the early two late nineties, early two thousand.
Speaker 1: Is your cool trout boat? Come with that flat bill hat?
Speaker 3: Nope?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just got that hat sold separately. Josh always
Speaker 1: has the coolest hat.
Speaker 2: It does if you're jealous, it's true.
Speaker 3: I gotta do something.
Speaker 7: I wear a beard because what's under the beard is
Speaker 7: not that great looking, and I wear a hat just
Speaker 7: to cover as much as possible.
Speaker 2: There you go. Well, hey, very nice Josh about taking
Speaker 2: his boat down to the big rivers of the South
Speaker 2: for us to go catfishing.
Speaker 3: Sure, and he said, he said, of course. Really heck, yes,
Speaker 3: Oh we're in Man.
Speaker 6: Hey, someone else got a boat, and that's Bear John.
Speaker 1: Yeah, our son got a boat.
Speaker 6: We sometimes talk about how Bear uses my Facebook account
Speaker 6: to purchase and sell items, and all my friends think
Speaker 6: that my because he doesn't have and he's constantly like
Speaker 6: selling machine parts. And it's kind of funny because the
Speaker 6: boat I don't think has gone out into the water yet,
Speaker 6: but it's been the focal point of a lot of
Speaker 6: activity at the new con farm, including with your son Josh.
Speaker 6: Almost every other night there's a group of five or
Speaker 6: six boys here, our young men who are working on
Speaker 6: something on that boat. And we really thought it was
Speaker 6: going out on the water this week and we came
Speaker 6: home and they were supposed to have taken it out
Speaker 6: and the boat's just hanging out there.
Speaker 3: That the battery was dead.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's always a reason, and I think that they
Speaker 6: enjoy working on I mean, it was a boat that
Speaker 6: came without a motor. Then they had to fix the
Speaker 6: motor that he got on Facebook marketplace. Now they've got
Speaker 6: to charge the motor. I don't know, it's kind of kind.
Speaker 7: Of it's a trolling motor.
Speaker 3: It's just got a trolling motor.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: It's a big a lot of a lot of boat activity. Male, Like,
Speaker 2: how you better get in well again, it's good buddy.
Speaker 1: By twenty.
Speaker 2: By twenty six, you'll be You'll be maybe you bought
Speaker 2: applestock back.
Speaker 3: In Like.
Speaker 1: It's like where you go the podcast.
Speaker 2: It's like that, buddy, you better watch out because because hey,
Speaker 2: I want to go ahead and make this public declaration.
Speaker 2: Brent Reeves and I planned to become commercial fishermen.
Speaker 3: Oh really really, Oh it's coming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's happening, huh, or at least expert cat fishermen.
Speaker 2: I am an expert catfisher I'm not saying that I'm not,
Speaker 2: but I've kind of been delayed in my development for
Speaker 2: the last twenty years because I've been pursuing other activities.
Speaker 4: You mean, like there's a cat, a professional cat fisherman
Speaker 4: trapped inside your body.
Speaker 3: Yes, that hadn't been let out yet.
Speaker 2: Well, he was out when I was in high school,
Speaker 2: but he got put back in when I moved to
Speaker 2: the mountains, kind of out of a big just when
Speaker 2: I moved up here.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: There's no cat fishing up here is not as good,
Speaker 2: but big plans for me and Brent to become professional
Speaker 2: cat fishermen. And on our maiden voyage a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks ago, we caught a giant.
Speaker 3: Jack gantor Yeah he was huge. Yeah, that's a twenty
Speaker 3: pound feet probably was well you said.
Speaker 1: Said, you said twenty pounds.
Speaker 4: Twenty maybe well, and I tell you very.
Speaker 3: And you are a doctor, could have been closer to.
Speaker 2: Hey, you somewhere between when you have a fishing buddy.
Speaker 2: I think I think there's a lot of character in
Speaker 2: what people. The world is just witnessed that I underestimated
Speaker 2: the way to that fish. Trying to be honest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you always say I overestimate bears about thirty percent.
Speaker 1: Well that's the truth. But we're talking catfish catfish.
Speaker 2: So anyway, we're big into the boat world and are
Speaker 2: going to continue to get bigger.
Speaker 1: We Uh, what were the other things on your on
Speaker 1: your list?
Speaker 6: Well, I get a lot of questions on my Instagram
Speaker 6: about Banjo and whether or not we ever sold them, Okay, right,
Speaker 6: and I just mule. Yeah, I felt like it'd be good
Speaker 6: to update everyone. Much like I predicted, Clay did not
Speaker 6: sell him, despite his strong commitments to do so. Instead,
Speaker 6: Banjo went to boarding school.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, so first of all, to give people a
Speaker 2: little bit of history back, Okay, is he the best
Speaker 2: mule I've got? I trained her she's seven years old.
Speaker 2: I got her when she was eighteen months old. I
Speaker 2: trained her in the six six week period, and I
Speaker 2: trained her myself, and she's a finished, really nice mule
Speaker 2: worth a lot. Had a guy come to my house
Speaker 2: a few days ago and asked me what I would
Speaker 2: sell her for, and he was a mule.
Speaker 7: Trainer, and he said no amount of money.
Speaker 2: I told him, I said, I said, you don't have
Speaker 2: enough money to buy that mule. And I was being serious.
Speaker 2: So I'm telling you that because this is in connection.
Speaker 2: So Banjo is Izzy's full brother, and I got him
Speaker 2: with the intent of training him myself. My life was
Speaker 2: quite a bit different when I got Banjo in terms
Speaker 2: of the amount of time that I could spend with
Speaker 2: a mule, and so I kind of slow trained him. Okay,
Speaker 2: what I did with Izzy in six weeks, I did
Speaker 2: in like a year with him, which is not good.
Speaker 1: It's not good practice, you know.
Speaker 2: There was just rather than riding him five days a week,
Speaker 2: I wrote him once every ten days, or maybe once
Speaker 2: every ten days, I'd ride him three days in a row.
Speaker 2: And I might go for a month without messing with him,
Speaker 2: and then coming back and messed with him and so
Speaker 2: last summer I.
Speaker 1: Started riding him and got bucked off twice.
Speaker 2: Okay, so he scared me, and it was my fault,
Speaker 2: one hundred percent of my fault. And I really felt
Speaker 2: like this mule had a lot of potential. He was
Speaker 2: really level headed. He was a flashy mule. And I'm
Speaker 2: going to tell you why. It's for sure a bona
Speaker 2: fide like stamped and approved flashy mule.
Speaker 1: A man that I'm gonna tell you about in a minute.
Speaker 1: Told me this, Brent, And so I.
Speaker 2: Asked my dad asked, all, y'all, you know, I think
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna sell him, because I you know, pretty
Speaker 2: much a bucking mule can be like a biting dog.
Speaker 2: Like if your dog bites you, you don't really ask
Speaker 2: many questions. You get rid of the dog. A mule
Speaker 2: can be that way with certain people. I asked an
Speaker 2: old muleman, Lloyd Holly, over here in Prairie Grove, and
Speaker 2: I said, man, I got a mule. He's bucked me
Speaker 2: off twice. I think it's my fault. I think he's
Speaker 2: a good mule. And he said, get rid of that sucker,
Speaker 2: And but I just couldn't quite do it. And so
Speaker 2: my friend, Michael Lanier. He's he was my squirrel hunting
Speaker 2: mentor and a good mule man. He introduced me to
Speaker 2: a guy in another part of Arkansas that is an
Speaker 2: Amish guy mule trainer. And in the mule world the
Speaker 2: Amisher legendary, the Amisher legendary for being mule trainers. And
Speaker 2: so for a for a very good price, I took
Speaker 2: Banjo over to this guy's place. And the idea was
Speaker 2: he would keep him for thirty days for a certain price,
Speaker 2: and he would ride him thirty times, or you know,
Speaker 2: train him, train him for thirty days every day, every day.
Speaker 2: And uh. And so me and my uncle go over there,
Speaker 2: and it was fascinating to me. We pull up to
Speaker 2: this place and I thought maybe the guy might have
Speaker 2: like two or three animals he was riding for people.
Speaker 2: This is like a this is like a business man.
Speaker 2: That he had probably twenty to twenty five horses and
Speaker 2: mules in stalls, just one after the other. And he
Speaker 2: and his son and his son in law and I
Speaker 2: think another son. I think there are four of them.
Speaker 2: That I mean rode and trained those mules and horses
Speaker 2: every day. It's just what they wake up and do
Speaker 2: and while we're there. These people are very nice people
Speaker 2: then like this, not big conversationalists necessarily, but I'm trying
Speaker 2: to sap everything i can out of this small interaction.
Speaker 2: When I'm dropping Banjo off at training camp, you know,
Speaker 2: and while I'm sitting there, we I tie Banjo up,
Speaker 2: and there's all these mules and horses, and Banjo's kind
Speaker 2: of excited and he's never been in an environment like this.
Speaker 2: He's kind of pulling up the lead rope and amped up.
Speaker 2: And I see two things that happen just while we're
Speaker 2: standing there in like ten minutes that would be like
Speaker 2: if that had happened to me, they had been a
Speaker 2: big deal. I watched him put a I'm kind of
Speaker 2: I'm probably boring everybody.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: I watched him put a horse on a treadmill. One
Speaker 2: of the one of the boy the young guys brought
Speaker 2: this horse over that you could tell had never been
Speaker 2: ridden and was just bug eyed. And and they're trying
Speaker 2: to get it up on this horse treadmill and that's there.
Speaker 1: They're pulling on it. They're pulling on it and trying
Speaker 1: to get it up in there.
Speaker 2: And and I'm talking to the dad and he while
Speaker 2: in conversation to me, just walks over like never takes
Speaker 2: eye contact off of me, and gets right behind this
Speaker 2: horse and puts a lariat rope on one side of
Speaker 2: the treadmill. Runs the lariot rope around the back of
Speaker 2: this horse that's freaking out, and he's still talking to.
Speaker 1: Me, just like, oh yeah, we got all this stuff do.
Speaker 2: Da runs it around the back of the horse, and
Speaker 2: through another back back of the horse, through on a
Speaker 2: back through the treadmill, and pulls the rope so that
Speaker 2: the rope cinches down and pushes the horse onto the treadmill,
Speaker 2: and he takes the tail that lariot rope and just
Speaker 2: pop pops that horse and it just jumps on that treadmill, just.
Speaker 1: Like it was born to do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a beautiful trick. I mean, this horse
Speaker 2: training is all about confidence, and I mean that horse
Speaker 2: knew that this guy wasn't gonna take anything. And and
Speaker 2: and then directly after that, we're still in the same conversation,
Speaker 2: one of the young boys walks up and he's got
Speaker 2: a little a young colt saddled up. And this colt,
Speaker 2: you can tell it's just hardly ever had a saddle
Speaker 2: on him, and he puts the saddle on him and
Speaker 2: ties him up to a to a stall right there,
Speaker 2: and the horse starts pulling against the lead, pulling against
Speaker 2: it like he's he's he's not used to being tied up,
Speaker 2: and he starts bucking and kicking and flips over on
Speaker 2: the ground, feet in the air, just rolling.
Speaker 1: On the ground. I mean, it's like chaos.
Speaker 2: And that that boy never batted an eye and just
Speaker 2: sat there within about two feet of that horse. The
Speaker 2: man never breaks conversation, like I'm like, and he lets
Speaker 2: that horse do its thing. It flops for a minute,
Speaker 2: stands up. The boy never I mean, I'm serious. He
Speaker 2: didn't smile, he didn't grin, he's a blood pressure didn't
Speaker 2: go up. And then he takes the horse off of
Speaker 2: the off of the unties it and walks it out.
Speaker 2: And he didn't ride the horse, but he just starts training.
Speaker 2: I mean, just like every day they says, that's where
Speaker 2: Banjo's up.
Speaker 1: So and when I when I.
Speaker 2: Was leaving, the man said to me, he said, Banjo
Speaker 2: be on that treadmill by the time you guys leave.
Speaker 2: I didn't see him put him on, but he was
Speaker 2: just like it starts well, he's there for a month.
Speaker 2: And I talked to him and he said he's really
Speaker 2: happy with what Banjo's doing. He says he's not bucked,
Speaker 2: he's not kicked. He said he really wants to do
Speaker 2: what they want him to do. He thinks he's got
Speaker 2: a lot of potential. He thinks that. He told me
Speaker 2: he needs another thirty days, so I'm going to leave
Speaker 2: him there another thirty chiropractor.
Speaker 1: And I went through the.
Speaker 2: Whole thing with him about, you know, well what if
Speaker 2: I took him? And he said, well, how much time
Speaker 2: will you have to ride him? And I said, well,
Speaker 2: I don't know, probably not that much. And he said,
Speaker 2: well you need to leave him here, and I said deal.
Speaker 2: And then I said, Misty, I said, what will this
Speaker 2: animal be worth when he comes back from you after
Speaker 2: being under saddle for sixty days? And he said, Clay,
Speaker 2: he said, that's a pretty flashy mule. He's got white feet.
Speaker 2: Whoa And he literally said that. He literally said that.
Speaker 2: And he told me that they took a mule like
Speaker 2: ban Joe to a big sale the other day and
Speaker 2: sold him for fifty five hundred dollars. And he said,
Speaker 2: if I rode him for a year after I get
Speaker 2: him back from them, he said it might be worth
Speaker 2: ten grand.
Speaker 5: Ten thousand dollars like.
Speaker 4: That, I should have sent the bucking horse of mine.
Speaker 2: Got his own PhDs, getting the PhD for those boys.
Speaker 1: Okay, that was a big story.
Speaker 6: That's a good one. That's a good one. I'm glad
Speaker 6: to hear that. Banjo's and such. You know, I think
Speaker 6: I envisioned it as a little bit. I envisioned it
Speaker 6: a little differently. I feel like, yeah, it feels it
Speaker 6: feels a little Yeah, It's like I didn't realize Banjo
Speaker 6: was in this much trouble. You know that he goes
Speaker 6: to a place like that. But it helps me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, saying about sending some of the kids.
Speaker 6: I've got a couple of names.
Speaker 9: My question is, did the treadmill have one of those
Speaker 9: screens with a trainer's face on it and.
Speaker 5: Talking to you know what they do?
Speaker 1: You know what they do?
Speaker 2: The horse is running on the treadmill and it's got
Speaker 2: big sides on it, and they throw tarps over the mule.
Speaker 2: They get up on the treadmill and sit on the
Speaker 2: mule while it's running on the treadmill like a mule
Speaker 2: that's never been written.
Speaker 1: Just because it can't get away, can't fight it. It
Speaker 1: can't fight it's gotten up.
Speaker 6: An electric treadmill.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Wow, yeah, it's like, what do they call that?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a.
Speaker 2: And I mean and by the time they're done, I mean,
Speaker 2: the meal like doesn't care.
Speaker 1: He's just like, well, I guess people can get on
Speaker 1: my back now.
Speaker 2: So we had a a interesting two episodes of the
Speaker 2: Bear Grease podcast that just came out about we called
Speaker 2: our Condown series.
Speaker 1: It was this all started.
Speaker 2: Steve Varnella was actually the one who told me about
Speaker 2: the book The Education of Little Tree.
Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of it before?
Speaker 6: You anyone?
Speaker 9: Jenica read it in junior high because she's wow, yeah,
Speaker 9: that's just really your wife, just like independently.
Speaker 5: It wasn't like that class. It was either junior high school.
Speaker 6: She's a literature major, but she did it in high school.
Speaker 5: Huh yeah, and that.
Speaker 9: But then she didn't know the backstory because she's like, yeah,
Speaker 9: I didn't really care for that book. But when I
Speaker 9: told her about the author, she's like, that's really fascinating.
Speaker 3: So she read it.
Speaker 1: Had you ever heard of it?
Speaker 8: Malaccho never?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I had never heard of it, And I
Speaker 2: think that it was on its way to becoming a
Speaker 2: book like Where the Red Fern Grows, kind of an
Speaker 2: American classic adolescent book. And then all this stuff with
Speaker 2: Asa came out and it kind of it put a
Speaker 2: put a damper on that. It wasn't until two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven that Oprah Winfrey took off the book off
Speaker 2: her book list. Really yeah, it was on her booklist
Speaker 2: for years and years. Wow, originally when it first came
Speaker 2: out and was people liked it even after the New
Speaker 2: York Times article came out. It was a period of
Speaker 2: time when people just didn't know it just just the
Speaker 2: internet was hardly there in the mid nineties, It wasn't
Speaker 2: It took a while for the world to kind of
Speaker 2: catch up to the book, and that's when Oprah Winfrey
Speaker 2: took it off. I tried to get Oprah here today.
Speaker 6: She didn't respond to the Bear Grease invite.
Speaker 1: Well, no, she didn't.
Speaker 6: Oh, sometimes these invites come out last minute, So maybe
Speaker 6: next time.
Speaker 3: I'm a little.
Speaker 5: Got the phone hung up.
Speaker 1: Where to start with this one?
Speaker 2: So we have already talked about the first episode, but
Speaker 2: the second episode with Asa Carter, who would like to start?
Speaker 1: Who would like to start.
Speaker 6: Would it be too early to jump in with some
Speaker 6: of the just clarifying?
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, all right.
Speaker 6: I don't want to be mean to Clay, but but
Speaker 6: uh I actually, after after.
Speaker 3: I got my head one exactly, did any.
Speaker 6: Of you find the pronunciation of the kkk? I think
Speaker 6: that's where we need to start. How would you say, Brent,
Speaker 6: don't say kkk, say the full? Say the full?
Speaker 3: So each one of them ku klux klan?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 6: Anyone else say it differently?
Speaker 8: I asked, what are you saying the clue klueklu to
Speaker 8: doctor Malka Nichols klux clue kluks it is.
Speaker 5: It's ku klux.
Speaker 6: Close definitely ku klux klan. Yeah, it's a and once
Speaker 6: once you listen to the podcast, Clay said, he said
Speaker 6: after record the podcast, he said, hey, say, he basically
Speaker 6: did the same thing I just did to you. And
Speaker 6: he said, say say with that, how would you say kkk?
Speaker 6: And I said ku klux clan and goes, oh, Josh,
Speaker 6: you say it clue.
Speaker 7: I don't say it that way. But I grew up
Speaker 7: in my mind hearing it that way. And I think
Speaker 7: I was a teenager before I realized. I think I
Speaker 7: saw it in print, I was like, Oh, it's actually
Speaker 7: ku Klux Klan, not klu.
Speaker 6: Klux klu Clux clans has like something from a doctor
Speaker 6: sus but.
Speaker 9: It makes sense on your tie's almost like they made
Speaker 9: a mistake later like.
Speaker 5: Oh, I've got so.
Speaker 6: That, we've got that other. I thought this was fascinating,
Speaker 6: Like on so many levels. I thought this, this, this
Speaker 6: podcast was fascinating as someone, you know, I think one
Speaker 6: of the most fascinating parts of it is that the
Speaker 6: book is blacklisted and I haven't heard of it and
Speaker 6: none of my students have read it. That that to
Speaker 6: me when I just listening, yeah, listening to the to
Speaker 6: the podcast, I hadn't heard of the book, So I
Speaker 6: I like to put this kind of stuff and and
Speaker 6: here in like when I when I heard the different
Speaker 6: excerpts from the book and what they described it would
Speaker 6: be the type of book that we would love to
Speaker 6: read at the school. But it's it's never on any
Speaker 6: of the list, Like when you when you.
Speaker 5: Know you look when you google blacklisted books.
Speaker 6: No, well, I mean I don't google blacklisted books. That's
Speaker 6: not what I'm going for. But but it's just interesting.
Speaker 6: It's never on a recommended list and No, none of
Speaker 6: our over the years, none of our literature teachers have
Speaker 6: ever brought this up as a good book to read,
Speaker 6: a good conversation to have. I think it's fascinating that
Speaker 6: Jessica Reddit and they didn't have a broader conversation.
Speaker 2: About Quite a few people reached out to me and
Speaker 2: said they had read the book and didn't know the background.
Speaker 6: And didn't know that, And to me, that's that's wild.
Speaker 6: That would be a fascinating background to discuss with high
Speaker 6: school kids, especially, I mean, I think or college studio.
Speaker 2: But that brings up the biggest question in the whole
Speaker 2: thing is it doesn't matter. Does it matter Malachi? Doesn't
Speaker 2: matter that he wrote a great book and that he
Speaker 2: was this guy.
Speaker 8: I mean, yes and no. But I was rooting for
Speaker 8: him in a sense of like to hope that he
Speaker 8: changed at the end, you know, because I think just
Speaker 8: looking at people would like it's hard to change when
Speaker 8: you get older, right, And to see a guy potentially,
Speaker 8: see a guy who was so distraught with the world
Speaker 8: and so you know, racist that potentially he would change
Speaker 8: and you would see you were you were thinking it
Speaker 8: was you know, he changed, and so yeah, and he
Speaker 8: like produced this great work that was always in him, right,
Speaker 8: So from that perspective, I think I was rooting for him.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it. It doesn't take.
Speaker 8: Away the fact that it's a great book, but I
Speaker 8: do think you have to I do think it requires
Speaker 8: a read and then a discussion right about the author
Speaker 8: because I can't remember if it was in the first
Speaker 8: or second episode. You the first or second episode you
Speaker 8: kind of asked like, would you read this to your kids?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 8: And I think to me, I think I would when
Speaker 8: they're older, to have that conversation about like, can people
Speaker 8: who do bad stuff produce good things?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 8: That's a I mean, that's a deep question, especially regarding race,
Speaker 8: that you yourself have to be resolved in to have.
Speaker 8: I think it's a great conversation to have with kids
Speaker 8: who will be faced with, you know, people whose values
Speaker 8: are or the way they live their life is different
Speaker 8: than you. They that they might produce something that's good,
Speaker 8: and do you value that or do you shun it
Speaker 8: away just because or their history. I don't have the
Speaker 8: right answer right now, but I mean I think it's
Speaker 8: a great it's a great exercise to have, and it
Speaker 8: puts you in an uncomfortable position right, I think at.
Speaker 3: The end of God was crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well the the hard part or not the hard part.
Speaker 2: But the question then becomes to what level of scrutiny
Speaker 2: do we scrutinize everything? Because it's like, I can pick
Speaker 2: up this book right here, Well, pick up a book
Speaker 2: and name the author.
Speaker 1: Is that author perfect?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Did the author the Bible?
Speaker 3: Then yes?
Speaker 2: I mean so, then then that means there's a gradient
Speaker 2: scale because ASA's life was so radical and.
Speaker 1: The the.
Speaker 2: The sentiment so egregious that we can say, well, for
Speaker 2: sure it matters with this guy because of how egregious
Speaker 2: it was. But then the guy that you know cheated
Speaker 2: on his wife. You know, maybe it's not that big
Speaker 2: a deal. I mean, and I guess it's all And
Speaker 2: that's just an example of something scandal.
Speaker 6: I think what makes this a little bit different is
Speaker 6: that he stated it was semi autobiographical. He lied love, Yeah,
Speaker 6: he just I mean, but it's it is an important
Speaker 6: one when you I think, it wouldn't matter to me
Speaker 6: if he just said this was a nonfiction book, all right,
Speaker 6: this is a fiction book. Like if he just said
Speaker 6: this is the novel that kind of I made up,
Speaker 6: then that wouldn't be very important. But the fact that
Speaker 6: he said this was like his life story, that makes
Speaker 6: it that that is puzzling, and it makes you have
Speaker 6: to kind of jump to Okay, this guy was crazy. Yeah,
Speaker 6: And maybe that doesn't matter, maybe that doesn't make the
Speaker 6: book less good. But poor guy, he was really great.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the value of it starts at page
Speaker 4: one and ends at the last page in that book,
Speaker 4: and you don't take it any further than that.
Speaker 1: He So you're a big death of the author guy.
Speaker 4: If the end of that is the end of his
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think out of how to phrase it.
Speaker 4: His participation in that to me stopped when at the
Speaker 4: last period, in the last page of that book. And
Speaker 4: I if I I owe that guy, if I read
Speaker 4: that book and enjoy it, thank you for writing a book.
Speaker 4: Nothing else matters to me as far as he's concerned,
Speaker 4: long as he's not affected me or my friends or
Speaker 4: my family or something like that, which brings up another question.
Speaker 4: Does that, you know, if that book is successful like
Speaker 4: it was, does that adversely affect me or my family
Speaker 4: or my friends. You know, I don't. It'd be hard
Speaker 4: to correlate all that together. But as far as him
Speaker 4: as a human being, Would I sit down have a
Speaker 4: cup of coffee with him?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 4: Would Could I read his book and enjoy it and
Speaker 4: end it with just that participation in that piece of
Speaker 4: his life that he wrote down on a piece of paper. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I can enjoy that, But the rest of it is
Speaker 4: immaterial to me the way I.
Speaker 3: Look at it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't want to be real chatty Kathy here
Speaker 6: at the same time, though, does it? You know he
Speaker 6: his life's message was a massive injustice to a lot
Speaker 6: of people.
Speaker 3: Well was for sure?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Carter was.
Speaker 6: We're just kind of acknowledging this guy was like two
Speaker 6: different people, and.
Speaker 3: I think he was skitzo.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what at the end, I thought that of
Speaker 6: the theories, that was probably the best. This guy is crazy,
Speaker 6: he's not, he's not well because it.
Speaker 1: Wasn't just it wasn't.
Speaker 8: I was just gonna say, it wasn't just a pen name, right,
Speaker 8: I think that's what I can Yeah, it wasn't just
Speaker 8: a pen name. Like he picked up and moved as life. Yeah,
Speaker 8: like talk to Barbara Walters. I mean that's like some
Speaker 8: magician type of stuff, you know, like to live that
Speaker 8: type of life. You know, you gotta be drinking something
Speaker 8: in your tea.
Speaker 2: You know, there's no I tried to get the audio
Speaker 2: from his interview with Barbara Walters and it couldn't find it.
Speaker 1: It doesn't exist.
Speaker 6: She I didn't hear you say this on the recording,
Speaker 6: But didn't she say?
Speaker 3: That was.
Speaker 1: So so Dan T.
Speaker 2: Carter, he he told me that back in the seventies,
Speaker 2: the Today Show was so it was one of the
Speaker 2: best shows, the most watched shows in America.
Speaker 1: But they were still using.
Speaker 2: Tape tape and literally would tape over the stuff they did,
Speaker 2: oh a week before, just like saving tape, you know,
Speaker 2: saving money, And so there were no there's no archival
Speaker 2: footage of that interview, but they said that that he
Speaker 2: he wore his cowboy hat and he like had his
Speaker 2: head down all the time, and he was kind of
Speaker 2: like when you look back at it now, an expert
Speaker 2: would be like, yeah, that guy's probably lying, But at
Speaker 2: the time, it just wasn't It wasn't seen.
Speaker 6: Didn't she say? She regretted that.
Speaker 2: I want to say that She said that was one
Speaker 2: of the bigger regrets of her her professional career, because
Speaker 2: perhaps she wasn't ever duped like that. Before everybody she
Speaker 2: sat down with. You know, they may have lied to her,
Speaker 2: but at least they were who they said they were.
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, the guy was That's what was interesting
Speaker 2: to me, just for no good reason. But the guy
Speaker 2: was was just he was super smart and was an
Speaker 2: actor and could tie stories together. I mean, he was
Speaker 2: kind of and I don't want to use the word
Speaker 2: brilliant because it sounds like you're like you liked the guy,
Speaker 2: but he was.
Speaker 3: He was cunning and crafty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, goly he was he ever, Ben, what were you
Speaker 1: gonna say?
Speaker 9: Well, a couple of times. The first almost like a technicality.
Speaker 9: And this is kind of hinted in the podcast that
Speaker 9: him having some apparently subconscious things that he respected about
Speaker 9: Cherokee culture stuff like that, that's not as like contradictory
Speaker 9: to his like worldview as people might think. Because he
Speaker 9: didn't write a book about a slave narrative and pretend
Speaker 9: that he was African American, like I don't think he was.
Speaker 9: He could consciously do that, consciously do that, but says
Speaker 9: it's a technicality. It's like sometimes people view like racists
Speaker 9: as just like this black or white thing, and and
Speaker 9: and actually I think that's actually one of the fact
Speaker 9: that people are more complex than that, to me is
Speaker 9: actually the danger and how you might how you interact
Speaker 9: with people that do have some pretty messed up worldview.
Speaker 9: For instance, like people that I look at in my
Speaker 9: my childhood that I kind of respected and knew, and
Speaker 9: I look back, like, it's not like I just reject
Speaker 9: wholesale everything about their their character, because but I look
Speaker 9: back and I see how messed up their views were
Speaker 9: on race, and I learned from that. And my point
Speaker 9: is like people are complex, and you can, I think
Speaker 9: you can, in one hand like condemn something, on the
Speaker 9: other hand be like.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's interesting.
Speaker 9: But I think after studying history for so many years,
Speaker 9: I still baffled why we we as in like society
Speaker 9: want to like venerate people or just like condemn every
Speaker 9: part of them. Or why why do people get so
Speaker 9: infatuated with talented writers and musicians, Like who said anybody
Speaker 9: has to like this guy just because he's a good writer,
Speaker 9: because obviously's a good writer. Same thing with musicians, Like
Speaker 9: I'll start watching a documentary about some musician that I
Speaker 9: like their music, and I'm halfway into I'm.
Speaker 5: Like, I kind of can't stand this.
Speaker 9: I would not hang out with them, Like I like
Speaker 9: their music, but I don't like anything about them as
Speaker 9: a person.
Speaker 5: But it's just weird in.
Speaker 9: Us how we try to put people on a pedestal
Speaker 9: just because they're talented. And you see that in history,
Speaker 9: starting with George Washington, who was as human as all
Speaker 9: of us. He's got like this godlike status in our
Speaker 9: culture because people don't really know about his entire life.
Speaker 9: And when you study history, there's so much to take in.
Speaker 9: You kind of are taught to categorize things pretty quickly
Speaker 9: so you can just understand it quicker. And it's like,
Speaker 9: these are the social causes, these are the political causes,
Speaker 9: these are the economic causes, and these were the good guys.
Speaker 9: These were the bad guys, and that's just who they were.
Speaker 9: But when you really dive into history, read biographies and stuff,
Speaker 9: you learn how complex people are. And sometimes you find
Speaker 9: people are actually pretty crazy at the end of it,
Speaker 9: and that might have been part of the driver of
Speaker 9: their just like massive output of productivity or whatever they were,
Speaker 9: and whether it's politics or art or whatever.
Speaker 5: But people are complex.
Speaker 3: M that's good.
Speaker 2: I think the what you said about musicians like if
Speaker 2: We and Malaca, I'm not arguing with you. I'm the
Speaker 2: same way. I think I agree with what you said
Speaker 2: at the beginning, Like it does matter what the author
Speaker 2: believed and did with his life.
Speaker 1: It's important, it's not irrelevant.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, yeah, how many musicians do
Speaker 2: I like their music but would really be deeply, deeply
Speaker 2: opposed to the values and lifestyle that they live, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: But I still would listen to their music and enjoy it.
Speaker 6: And I think about that. You could apply it to
Speaker 6: like politics. There's a lot of politicians whose lifestyles do
Speaker 6: not match their voting patterns, and so a lot of
Speaker 6: people would vote for them because they like the way
Speaker 6: they vote, but then they find out how they live
Speaker 6: and it's like, oh, yuh, that's different. Actually the opposite
Speaker 6: of what you say, and which one matters how they've vote,
Speaker 6: you know, and how much that aligns to how you
Speaker 6: would want to be represented in your government, in a
Speaker 6: representative government for the exactly These are complex, difficult questions Langbridge.
Speaker 7: You know, it's interesting I actually had some of the
Speaker 7: same thoughts about about musicians and celebrities. I mean, I
Speaker 7: struggle sometimes, like with professional athletes, It's like that are venerated.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but really they're just absolutely dirt balls.
Speaker 7: You know, and because they have a skill, and at
Speaker 7: the same time, you can enjoy watching them play or
Speaker 7: you can enjoy listening to their music.
Speaker 2: When there's a sports game on, I only watch the
Speaker 2: good guys. Anyone that doesn't have my exact value system.
Speaker 2: I blank them out in my mind as they play football.
Speaker 7: But I think I would lean more towards the death
Speaker 7: of the author philosophy that I think that that you
Speaker 7: you know, I think you can. I think it also
Speaker 7: depends on your your worldview and perspective, because I think
Speaker 7: there there is there are people who are very critical
Speaker 7: of everything that they see and hear, and you know,
Speaker 7: I remember when I was a kid, we boycotted everything
Speaker 7: because you know, and until I got older and realized, like,
Speaker 7: there there is stuff in the world that that is
Speaker 7: not going to align with my values. However, you know,
Speaker 7: Scripture talks about being in the world and not of
Speaker 7: the world, and so we have the opportunity to maneuver
Speaker 7: those things and still maintain the standards that we have.
Speaker 7: I can read this book and not violate my conscience,
Speaker 7: or I can and enjoy it. However, do I agree
Speaker 7: with with Asa Carter. Absolutely not, you know what I mean.
Speaker 7: The man was a kook. But I think I think
Speaker 7: if you're if your perspective is right, you can read
Speaker 7: that book and you can identify things inside of it
Speaker 7: that are a beautiful because I think you know the
Speaker 7: pros that you read in in the in the I've
Speaker 7: never read the book, but that you read the excerpts
Speaker 7: of on the podcas Has it was so beautifully written
Speaker 7: and then paints a picture in your mind. But at
Speaker 7: the same time, you know, we can we can also,
Speaker 7: you know, I think we have the ability to, you know,
Speaker 7: if you have a critical mind and ability to read
Speaker 7: that stuff. You know, can someone who has such a
Speaker 7: strong philosophy about certain things right in right like that
Speaker 7: and not they're not be subversive or or seditious things
Speaker 7: going on behind there even consciously or subconsciously that they
Speaker 7: put in there.
Speaker 5: Who knows.
Speaker 7: But I do appreciate it, and I think you can
Speaker 7: read it, you know what I mean. I think probably
Speaker 7: thousands of people when Oprah put it on our list,
Speaker 7: I'm sure thousands and thousands of people read it and
Speaker 7: liked it and you know, didn't become racist.
Speaker 3: This guy must be a right.
Speaker 6: I think I'm one of those people that, like when
Speaker 6: you're watching a movie and if it, if it really
Speaker 6: impacts me, I go and research like the people who
Speaker 6: wrote it and who made it. And so, first of all,
Speaker 6: I think I would not have been due just had
Speaker 6: I known this book existed. I think I would researched
Speaker 6: this guy. I think I was. It's true, Yeah, it's true,
Speaker 6: But I think, you know, for me, like I do
Speaker 6: get really connected to who and I don't abstain from
Speaker 6: watching them in sports, but I actually care a lot
Speaker 6: about that the people behind the behind all these things,
Speaker 6: and that matters a whole lot to me, mainly just
Speaker 6: because I'm I'm curious, you know, and I'm interested in
Speaker 6: the person behind such a brilliant story. So I think
Speaker 6: for someone like me, this is like what this guy
Speaker 6: just totally lied and is completely different than.
Speaker 4: I meant you beyond. Would it affected you so much
Speaker 4: that you wouldn't have enjoyed the story?
Speaker 6: Well, I don't know that if I wouldn't have enjoyed
Speaker 6: the story, but it certainly changes when you when you
Speaker 6: read it. I thought it was really interesting when he
Speaker 6: actually interviewed the Native American people and they say, well,
Speaker 6: this is accurate, but this part over here is yeah,
Speaker 6: we would have never And it was like, okay, so
Speaker 6: he's kind of just writing like a Southern guy who
Speaker 6: has observe.
Speaker 2: I kind of thought that was a little nitpicky, though,
Speaker 2: really well, kind of like Steve said, he said, nobody
Speaker 2: had problems with this book at all until we found
Speaker 2: out who the author was. You know, Steve said, go
Speaker 2: back to the seventies and see if any anybody was
Speaker 2: saying that it was bad.
Speaker 6: Did they have any Native Americans interviewed in this episode
Speaker 6: about what they thought about it?
Speaker 2: That I don't really know, but I know that the
Speaker 2: world and this wasn't coming from the Native American community.
Speaker 2: Perhaps they had a response and I'm unaware of it,
Speaker 2: but you know, the world was venerating him as one
Speaker 2: of the greatest Native American writers in history.
Speaker 1: Pretty crazy, and so I mean, you know they weren't.
Speaker 2: I don't and I don't know have they ever heard
Speaker 2: of takumsaaaa. I had a guy stop me the other
Speaker 2: day and say, Clay's thought, Oh.
Speaker 3: What do you got?
Speaker 2: This is a this is a technical media question. What
Speaker 2: do you guys think about me reading excerpts from books?
Speaker 1: Like when you're listening to that.
Speaker 9: Like do you go, oh gosh, I feel more connected
Speaker 9: to it, Okay, And I can say i've kind of
Speaker 9: I can say I haven't read the book, but I
Speaker 9: listen to an audio book because I.
Speaker 1: Did a little snippet just on yeah with just Meet.
Speaker 5: People say you ever read that, Like, yeah, audiobook?
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I just you know, when I'm making these podcasts,
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to find a way to tell the story.
Speaker 2: And part of this was convincing people who hadn't read
Speaker 2: the book that it was a good book. I mean,
Speaker 2: that was what I was trying to do, because I
Speaker 2: believed it was a good book.
Speaker 9: What I found interesting was it was the whole thing
Speaker 9: about making money. It was almost like, I mean, he
Speaker 9: obviously never admitted that he thought he was wrong, but
Speaker 9: he eventually kind of gave up his almost like lost
Speaker 9: the lost this war that I've devoted my life to.
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna go make some money.
Speaker 9: I didn't find that very shocking, Like it's like that
Speaker 9: kind of makes sense. I think the most shocking thing
Speaker 9: is the extent he went to to sell a book
Speaker 9: to like literally con America, and it was it's It's
Speaker 9: pretty twisted, but also kind of hilarious. When Elon Musk
Speaker 9: took over Twitter and they're like this, everybody thought he
Speaker 9: was going to fire everybody. And these two random young
Speaker 9: guys got boxes and they started walking down the street
Speaker 9: near the office and fold all these journalists and just
Speaker 9: saying they got fired. They started tweeting and writing about
Speaker 9: all these firings, and they were just totally made it up.
Speaker 9: Something's entertaining about somebody that cons others like that, you know.
Speaker 5: What I have to say, And.
Speaker 7: Maybe this is a character flaw, but I assumed that
Speaker 7: that if I pick up a book and it says
Speaker 7: based on a true story or something like that, that's
Speaker 7: a lie. That if I see a movie is based
Speaker 7: on a true story, they they made that crap up, you.
Speaker 1: Know, based on Oh man, you should see.
Speaker 6: I mean, when I went to a movie based on
Speaker 6: a true story, I basically have checking everything.
Speaker 7: I mean, who's to say that an autobiography is completely true?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's my story.
Speaker 2: I tell like, I won't exactly that's this country life,
Speaker 2: New York City.
Speaker 6: You know, something this made me think about is mine.
Speaker 6: And there's been several stories like this have come out
Speaker 6: in the news in the last like five or ten years.
Speaker 6: But at our daughter's school, there was a woman who
Speaker 6: was like named to all these Latin Latin like community
Speaker 6: service leadership positions and really worked for the on the
Speaker 6: for the welfare of Latino people. And she of course
Speaker 6: claimed to have been raised in a Latin community in
Speaker 6: like you know, some some urban area. And it turned
Speaker 6: out she is not at all Latin. There's none of
Speaker 6: that that and she got fund out, she got fired,
Speaker 6: and they wrote a letter, an apology letter to all
Speaker 6: the students and to me as a parent, I got
Speaker 6: this letter. You know, you're disturbed by this, and it
Speaker 6: was like, this woman's been working for decades inside of
Speaker 6: this this community under and some I don't even know
Speaker 6: how they they figured it out, but it's kind of
Speaker 6: the same, the same thing, except for in her case
Speaker 6: she was actually she's doing good for that community.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 6: And it's it's like that's pretty messed up though, I mean,
Speaker 6: living living a total lie and iron.
Speaker 3: Azed Cody, what's the het?
Speaker 4: Remember that guy the Native American and Eric quotes they're
Speaker 4: standing on the side of the road and somebody drives
Speaker 4: behind and throws with McDonald's sack out in his feet,
Speaker 4: and he's dressed in full Native American regalia, and he
Speaker 4: turns and looks towards the Cameron.
Speaker 3: Was from sicily.
Speaker 6: Being rocked right now.
Speaker 2: I told you, are you going to start lettering now?
Speaker 2: He yes, because you've been fooled. Hey, what did you
Speaker 2: guys think about the Were you surprised Malaca?
Speaker 1: Let me ask you.
Speaker 2: Were you surprised when you heard the innered the inner
Speaker 2: workings of how the white supremacists were saying that the
Speaker 2: civil rights movement was the communists being fed by the Jews?
Speaker 1: Did you know that really?
Speaker 3: Yeah? That in school? Okay, Yeah.
Speaker 8: I think it goes back to what Ben said. It's
Speaker 8: I mean, this stuff is complex, you know the issues
Speaker 8: of race and south. It's really complex. And there's no
Speaker 8: there's no black and white. I think human beings wanted
Speaker 8: to be black and white, yes or no, and it's
Speaker 8: it's just not It's just not so. And I think
Speaker 8: also one thing that I was just thinking about Aesa
Speaker 8: and just his life. I think everybody comes to a
Speaker 8: position of like making a choice. I think he probably
Speaker 8: had a choice of of like wanting things deeper, or
Speaker 8: like turning his life around or trying to produce books
Speaker 8: and just like letting the KKK life go. And I
Speaker 8: think he just made a choice to not do it.
Speaker 8: I think towards the end of his life he probably
Speaker 8: looked back, he was got to mix in he's crazy
Speaker 8: and stuff like that. Looked back and thought, man, like
Speaker 8: I wasted my time, right, did this radio show and
Speaker 8: got kicked out right. I supported, you know, Governor Wallace,
Speaker 8: and then ran against him and lost. Right, Like his
Speaker 8: life is just a bunch of trying and trying and
Speaker 8: trying and failing. And then he just thought, man, maybe
Speaker 8: I should put my life towards something and he produced
Speaker 8: this like great book. So, I don't know, very interesting.
Speaker 10: Man.
Speaker 4: It was cool that he told that story. Somebody it
Speaker 4: was in the navy with him. He said they'd heard
Speaker 4: that story when he was young. Yeah, before he did
Speaker 4: all that other shit.
Speaker 1: He was eighteen years old. Yeah, he told that story.
Speaker 3: He told so that's been an him for a while.
Speaker 4: And it goes back to that thing I said on
Speaker 4: the last render, I think people are inherently good, because
Speaker 4: that's the only place a story like that comes from.
Speaker 3: And he just chose to be terrible person.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 3: I think that was I think everybody.
Speaker 4: I mean obviously that I say, obviously I'm not a
Speaker 4: doctor like most of the folks in here.
Speaker 10: Yeah, captain, captain, But I mean.
Speaker 4: It would seem that the guy had some kind of
Speaker 4: mental problems, but outside of that, he could have been
Speaker 4: a good guy, because that that story has got to
Speaker 4: come from a good place.
Speaker 6: To me, I've got a theory on gifting and and
Speaker 6: and it's based on a lot of a lot of
Speaker 6: different things. But I feel like sometimes people who are
Speaker 6: like extremely good at stuff, and you know, they talked
Speaker 6: about every single good speech are all the It was
Speaker 6: clear he was an excellent writer. He was excellent. And
Speaker 6: sometimes I feel like there's you're kind of teetering with
Speaker 6: like this balance in life between normal and gifting, and
Speaker 6: like the more the more gifted you are, and the
Speaker 6: more you go into that space and the more you
Speaker 6: perfect your craft, the less stable you become as a
Speaker 6: human being. That's kind of a pessimistic worldview, but that's
Speaker 6: been my experience.
Speaker 3: What you're saying.
Speaker 8: I mean, it made me think about as Carter made
Speaker 8: me think about Bill Gates. And there's a documentary documentary
Speaker 8: about Bill Gates and his wife is talking about Bill
Speaker 8: and how Bill is extremely smart, extremely smart, but Bill
Speaker 8: is not connected to his emotions right, connected to how
Speaker 8: he feels. And I think it kind of connects with
Speaker 8: what Misty says, like you can put so much energy
Speaker 8: in perfecting your craft and do these things with gifting,
Speaker 8: that you lose a sense of humanity, right, you lose
Speaker 8: a sense of connection and normalcy and enjoyment and you know,
Speaker 8: valuing people that you kind of you get warped. And
Speaker 8: I think you mix that with like you know, the
Speaker 8: deep racist, the deep. There was a there was a
Speaker 8: story in there where he talked about he got removed
Speaker 8: or he felled out of a class, and like that
Speaker 8: immediately he got resentful. So that like you mix all
Speaker 8: of that, like the system.
Speaker 6: Being against you and you feel like this isn't fair
Speaker 6: and it kind of twisted.
Speaker 3: You and it's not be my fault. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 3: gotta blame somebody looking for an enemy.
Speaker 6: I think working with with kids a lot, you see
Speaker 6: parents come in when kids are really young and they
Speaker 6: want you to perceive their kids as gifted and really unique,
Speaker 6: and it's like, I think you should really be shooting
Speaker 6: for average here. There's a lot of value and having
Speaker 6: an average kid. There's a lot of I'm joking, but
Speaker 6: I'm also dead.
Speaker 2: Seriously, and it's it's something that we've done with our kids.
Speaker 2: I think is that we've gifting is being gifted at something.
Speaker 2: It doesn't it Almos's almost like it doesn't come by
Speaker 2: merit in a way. And so there's things that you
Speaker 2: we we have honored character over gifting with our kids.
Speaker 2: That's the most simple way to say it. Because gifting
Speaker 2: will take care of itself. There's certain things that your
Speaker 2: kids you are going to be able to do that
Speaker 2: nobody else can do that you.
Speaker 1: Didn't work for.
Speaker 2: You just kind of got it. Yeah, you know, like
Speaker 2: Brent and his beard and overalls and.
Speaker 1: By the way, so you just see what I'm saying.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and if you put too much of an emphasis
Speaker 6: on that, and if.
Speaker 1: You go emphasis on the gifting, it will kind of
Speaker 1: pollute them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think that there's a lot to be
Speaker 6: said for restraint just saying hey, I can go to
Speaker 6: like real extreme places with this thing. And you you
Speaker 6: see this a lot with artists with and they.
Speaker 2: Get weird artist musicians, Yeah, they just say it's like.
Speaker 6: But you you you see this a lot with artists
Speaker 6: where they just go down these extreme tunnels, they take
Speaker 6: on different identities, they become different people, and it's like,
Speaker 6: I bet it'd be good for the world if you
Speaker 6: were just like pretty darn good at your art and
Speaker 6: a really good person.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you, guys, something, do you I had
Speaker 2: a lot of people comment to me that they they
Speaker 2: were maybe not surprised, but they that's what they said,
Speaker 2: that we could tackle this kind of issue on this platform.
Speaker 2: What do y'all think? You are just kind of like, well,
Speaker 2: of course we're going to talk about this. What do
Speaker 2: you think, Malca?
Speaker 8: I mean, I wouldn't say surprised. I think it needs
Speaker 8: to be like when I when I think about like
Speaker 8: the Bear Grease podcast, I think about like taking you
Speaker 8: to the wild, and it's uncomfortable, right, and I think
Speaker 8: it's okay to navigate and the things that are uncomfortable,
Speaker 8: And I just think race in the South and you know,
Speaker 8: hunting and Indians and you know, everything that's included. It's uncomfortable.
Speaker 8: It's not as black and white. Yeah, and you know
Speaker 8: you navigated with with wisdom, but I think you do
Speaker 8: got to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's all just really interesting to me. I had,
Speaker 2: I had one negative review.
Speaker 3: One star.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, he said, I love the podcast, I love
Speaker 2: all you guys, but this has nothing to do with hunting.
Speaker 2: This is an outdoor podcast. This is a waste of time.
Speaker 2: He just Lambassis like saying like, why are you even
Speaker 2: talking about it? And I don't take much. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is not we never said it was a hunting podcast.
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, if I'm interested in it and there's
Speaker 2: any connection to the natural world and this book, the
Speaker 2: Education of Little Tree, was the gateway into into this story,
Speaker 2: you know, and I appreciate that that we can talk
Speaker 2: about this stuff. Yeah, not be not be afraid of it,
Speaker 2: saying that, let's close on this one.
Speaker 1: What do you think about me reading the Unibar Manifesto.
Speaker 6: We talk about this, but that feels a little bit.
Speaker 1: Like, No.
Speaker 2: Brunella is the one who who had to read the
Speaker 2: Unibarber Manifesto in the same class that he read The
Speaker 2: Education of Little Tree. And so the Unibomber Manifesto was
Speaker 2: in the New York Times and the Washington Post in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five. So it's not like it's not like
Speaker 2: this is bank contraband material. This literally was published in
Speaker 2: these places, and it didn't take me long to find
Speaker 2: that section. And I wasn't looking for that section. I
Speaker 2: was just looking for a section that I could pull
Speaker 2: out that would have some relevance and a whole lot
Speaker 2: of what he said, a whole lot of humans in
Speaker 2: America would agree with.
Speaker 4: Well, that's how all those kind of people get followers, exactly,
Speaker 4: looking for somebody there, looking to identify with somebody, and
Speaker 4: if they're an orator, like to comfort or whatever high
Speaker 4: we can. Yeah, however we decided to say it. That's
Speaker 4: how he got this folks following him. He was able
Speaker 4: to get his message out. Oh, identify with that guy.
Speaker 4: I'm going to start following him. Let's go do some
Speaker 4: stuff together. Burn a barn.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: Well, okay, I guess it's all right. And then it
Speaker 4: just magnifies them there. But that's how they get those
Speaker 4: folks to follow them.
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's almost like extremism is about the application and
Speaker 9: the solution to the problem.
Speaker 5: But they start out talking about the problem.
Speaker 9: That a lot of people might agree with, and then
Speaker 9: they just get more and more extreme.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it goes back to that thing.
Speaker 4: Everybody always, regardless of what the issue is, somebody all
Speaker 4: do something about that. Well, finally some guy says, I'll
Speaker 4: tell you what, I'll do something about it if you'll
Speaker 4: go with me. Well, I don't know, joshould be like,
Speaker 4: I gotta ask my wife safe.
Speaker 1: Well it was, uh.
Speaker 2: It My point in reading that was to show I
Speaker 2: was qualifying what Steve said when he said he would
Speaker 2: have believed that if the Unibomber had wrote The Education
Speaker 2: of Little Tree.
Speaker 1: I was qualifying that statement.
Speaker 2: But the point that I the thing that I also
Speaker 2: saw was that a lot of times being crazy comes
Speaker 2: with a lot of can come with some reasonable ideas,
Speaker 2: can come you know it can it could come cloaked
Speaker 2: in something that seems seems insightful, seems like well yeah,
Speaker 2: and uh and obviously the UNI Bomber was a bad dude, clearly,
Speaker 2: But there's a whole lot of that manifesto that's really interesting.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Well, any closing thoughts, what was it?
Speaker 2: What was the most shocking part of the thing or
Speaker 2: your favorite part of the something that really stood out
Speaker 2: to you.
Speaker 8: My favorite part was the church story and that guy
Speaker 8: about you know him fighting for everything. I think that
Speaker 8: was in the first one coon Jack and Coon Jack.
Speaker 8: I got the difference right here under my under my shirt.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wasn't that good. That's that's good writing. I mean,
Speaker 2: surely he just made that up, like I don't think
Speaker 2: that happened.
Speaker 6: It kind of reminded me a little a little bit
Speaker 6: of Jerry Klower.
Speaker 1: What's his name, Jerry Klower?
Speaker 6: Jerry Klower? That story about the guy. Do you remember
Speaker 6: when you did the podcast on him? Any the story
Speaker 6: about the it actually sounds a lot like stuff that
Speaker 6: does happen in small, small churches. I mean, he really does.
Speaker 6: When I read, I thought, man, he saw that happen. Yeah,
Speaker 6: the chandelier story running Jerry Clower chandel.
Speaker 7: The circumstances around his death were pretty fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we didn't we didn't get into it.
Speaker 3: Well that was a.
Speaker 1: Cliff Yeah, yeah, I felt.
Speaker 2: So you can get you can read the book Unmasking
Speaker 2: the Clans and my Dante Carter and I actually I
Speaker 2: did that interview before the book came out. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 2: so the detail and and and I had to respect
Speaker 2: Dan and I understood he just get he laid out everything,
Speaker 2: you know, he hid nothing, and he wrote this book
Speaker 2: and he's the world's expert in ASA Carter, and so
Speaker 2: when he didn't want to tell me how he died,
Speaker 2: I respected that and I didn't go like look it up.
Speaker 1: So we don't really know how he died.
Speaker 5: So can you tell us here?
Speaker 3: We'll keep it a secret.
Speaker 1: I still don't know. The book came out in April,
Speaker 1: like it's barely out.
Speaker 6: So we can all go. Look, I think we should
Speaker 6: respect we should respect him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll go.
Speaker 6: I'm I'm super curious, especially because he kept calling it biblical.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Interesting, yea mm hmm, like maybe he had a worse
Speaker 7: brother that killed him.
Speaker 1: Maybe.
Speaker 6: Wow, I'm concerned about this family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2: Well, we'll be moving on to greener pastures on bear
Speaker 2: Grease after this one. Next next episode is going to
Speaker 2: be really good. I can't tell you what it's about,
Speaker 2: but I.
Speaker 7: Cam I'll call Dan Carter and ask him the country.
Speaker 4: Life DM men, I'll tell you what it is.
Speaker 1: Well, thank all you guys for coming much appreciated.
Speaker 3: Go see yeah two yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: Hey, Josh, you know, I tell you you said something
Speaker 4: about my beard every table, what my grandpa said about.
Speaker 3: The first beard I grew.
Speaker 4: He said that looks ridiculous, I said, why, he said,
Speaker 4: I would not cultivate on my face, what grows wild
Speaker 4: on my behind?
Speaker 7: My gosh, I broke out my passport from nineteen ninety
Speaker 7: four and showing, showing these guys my little pencil mustache
Speaker 7: that I was really proud of back then, because that's
Speaker 7: all I could all I could grow, was like seventeen
Speaker 7: hairs on each side, like.
Speaker 3: A hen turkey with a beer.
Speaker 1: Yeah,