1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from House 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Dowdy and I am back again with Ben Boland. Hey, Sarah, 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: thanks for having me back. Yeah, we have been talking 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: about McCarthyism. Ben is the host of Stuff they Don't 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: Want You to Know, and so that's all about conspiracy. 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: So we're focusing on a very famous conspiracy in American 8 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: politics today, the Red Scare Joseph McCarthy blacklisting in Hollywood. 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: And just to catch you guys up, if you if 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: you listen to the last episode a little while ago, 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: we talked about the post World War two fear of 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: communism abroad and at home in the US, and how 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: that in turn led to the creation of the House 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: on American Activities Committee, which Ben and I are abbreviating 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: as the h u a C. We in turn promoted 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: its investigations in part by focusing a lot on Hollywood 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: and a lot on celebrities. And we're finally going to 18 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: talk about that some more today. Um. But throughout the 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: government becoming kind of quote tough on Red's became really 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: important politically, and there was so much fear and paranoia 21 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: among people, it was easy for an enterprising politician to 22 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: capitalize on. And that's where we left off last time. 23 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: One such enterprising politician who had found the perfect way 24 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: to capitalize on that fear in paranoia. Yes, he was 25 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: Joseph McCarthy and Joe at this time, I'm going to 26 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: call him Joe. Joe at this time saw a tremendous opportunity, 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: uh in that he had the once in a lifetime 28 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: chance to take his senate career, which foundering, floundering, floundering 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: is a great word, was to take his floundering senatorial 30 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: career in to a new direction. And he delivered a 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: famous speech in February of nineteen fifty wherein he claimed 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: that not only were there real communist sympathizers and subversives 33 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: in the United States, but in fact there was a 34 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: conspiracy and there was a network of those. We've got 35 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: an excerpt from this speech, the mind if I read, okay, 36 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: I promise I won't do a weird voice with it. 37 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: And ladies and gentlemen, while I cannot take the time 38 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 1: to name all the men in the State Department who 39 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: have been named as active members of the Communist Party 40 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: and members of a spy ring. I have here in 41 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: my hand a list of two hundred and five a 42 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: list of names that were made known to the Secretary 43 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: of State as being members of the Communist Party and 44 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in that 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: State department. So strong words. And we talked last time 46 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: about stagecraft. I mean that point where he says, I 47 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: don't have time to list everybody, so I just have 48 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: this piece of paper. Take my word for it. I'm 49 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: holding this piece of paper in my hand with this 50 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: list of two hundred and five names. It is so 51 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: compelling if you were if you were going to see that, 52 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: to get caught up in the idea of oh my god, 53 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: he has a list he doesn't even have. There are 54 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: so many names, he doesn't even have time to mention 55 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: them during this speech. And in his defense, he did 56 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: have a real piece of paper. He did. And one 57 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: fascinating thing about this, to me, this would never happen today. 58 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: People still don't know what was on the piece of 59 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: paper because, as we said in our cliffhanger last time, 60 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: it was not a list of names, clearly, but nobody 61 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: knows if it was his grocery list. If it was 62 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: gibberish what it could have been today, you would have 63 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: gotten it zoomed in photo of it. If you had 64 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: a list and you were waving around, somebody would get 65 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: a picture of it today. And in two oh, here's 66 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: the thing, his his I don't want to call it 67 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: employ his speech works and he starts to get some attention. Now, 68 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: this is similar to the way that Richard Nixon was 69 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: able to get some attention through his uh, through his 70 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: work in the his espionage and pertry cases. At this point, um, 71 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: the Senate starts looking into some of his claims because 72 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: McCarthy's naming some uh, some fairly high level positions, or 73 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: at least insinuating insinuating he's not really naming because it's 74 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: not really uh, not so much a physical or actual list. 75 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: And and one thing to mention too, you know, wondering 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 1: where this list, not the physical list he was holding, 77 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: since we've established that was nothing, but where the idea 78 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: of this list came from. And it puffibly came from 79 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: a nineteen forty six loyalty screening of the State Department employees, 80 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: but that didn't really it doesn't matter that much where 81 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: it came from because you know, you mentioned two oh 82 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: five when you were when you were voting his speech. 83 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: There we mentioned in the last episode that the number 84 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: of people varied a lot. It clearly didn't come from 85 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: a concrete source because it fluctuated so much. Yeah, that's uh, 86 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: that's one dead giveaway there, the way that these so 87 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: called facts would sort of change to fit McCarthy's purposes. 88 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: And this is a technique that we're going to see grow, Right, 89 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: He's gonna grow and become more sophisticated with this. Now 90 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: he contrary to one of the popular beliefs, McCarthy is not, 91 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: nor was he ever a member of the I'm kidding 92 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: a member of h U a C. The House on 93 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: American Activities Committee. He wasn't set on a different committee 94 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: called the Committee on Government Operations. These folks, uh, this, 95 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: this committee itself didn't mess with Hollywood so much as 96 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: they did with the State Department and the Armed Forces. 97 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: And you might think, from you know, we've discussed already 98 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: his lackluster senatorial career already, you might think that with 99 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: his sudden fame with the public he got he was 100 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: given this chair of this committee as sort of a 101 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: reward like this is a real up and coming guy. 102 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: That's not the case at all. You're hinting of this earlier. 103 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: But the Senate wasn't convinced by this speech and by 104 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: the list and everything, and even investigating McCarthy's claims but 105 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: found them baseless. That didn't really get much play with 106 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 1: the media because it was not as compelling as a list. 107 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: But still the Senate wasn't looking to promote this guy 108 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: too much. And uh so he was given the chair 109 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: of a committee that hadn't had that much of a 110 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: presence in the past. It used to be about mainly 111 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: uncovering fraud in the government waste um, not about hunting 112 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: out communists. But once McCarthy had a staff and had 113 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: a budget, he really went with it. Yeah, he took 114 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 1: this to the next level. Uh the committee's power to 115 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: scrutinize government activity at all levels really gave his group 116 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: free reign to gave them enormous latitude to start investigating 117 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: or I guess carrying out the pretense of an investigation 118 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: on on numerous people, numerous positions. Now he begins to 119 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: have hearings to root out communist subversives. Three, he starts 120 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: these hearings um in in a very interesting way. They 121 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: have a little bit of of an m O to them. 122 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: Some commonalities. One is the way in which a person 123 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: is defined as being guilty right of being a communist subversive. 124 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: If you have been associated with the Communist Party in 125 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: the past in any way, then you are still a 126 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: communist today in in the McCarthy eyes. And we often 127 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: throw around the phrase McCarthy is um or a witch hunt, 128 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, calling back to the inquisitions, as a way 129 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: of using shorthand to refer to this. What we're concretely 130 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: saying is that this differs from a genuine legal investigation 131 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: because it's it's a crime of guilt by association. You're 132 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: presumed guilty before you even start, rather than as normal 133 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: when you're presumed innocent um. And the only way that 134 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: you can prove your loyalty you can't defend yourself because 135 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: defending yourself implicates you. The only way to really prove 136 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: your loyalty quote is to name names, name people who 137 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: might be associated with the Communist Party, name other people 138 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: who have some sort of connections. And that's really I 139 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: think the key of McCarthy is them. That's the only 140 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: way out is to make the list get bigger, sort 141 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: of this um pyramid scheme almost of naming other names. 142 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: What a great way to say it, because it's it's strange. 143 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: The only way that you can prove you're not a 144 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: part of McCarthy's conspiracy theory is by enlarging the scope 145 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: of his conspiracy theory. Yeah and um, this comes into 146 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: play even more when people begin to criticize his methods. 147 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: They criticize his lack of proof. Now keep in mind, 148 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: the entire time that this is occurring, the McCarthy star 149 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: power for lack of a better word, is building because 150 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: he is a righteous American preventing the spread of Soviet influence. 151 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: So it's becoming more and more dangerous to criticize this guy. Uh. 152 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: People who criticize his methods or say hey, maybe you 153 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: should have some proof occasionally um later coincidentally enough, UH 154 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: come under suspicion of being communists adversive. So if you 155 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: have a problem with way McCarthy conducts his investigations, then 156 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: clearly the only reason you would have that problem is 157 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: that you yourself are read. You had something to hide, 158 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: and he really did make sure to target a wide 159 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: class of people too, So it's not just if you 160 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: were in a particular industry you were under a threat. 161 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: We're talking about politicians and professors and journalists of course, 162 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: which all help with the control. And I mean you 163 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: even have some specific names. There are so many, but 164 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: you could give you out that are real, real important 165 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: for the history of this. Yes, so a professor like 166 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: Owen Lattimore would come under fire. Um. Now we know 167 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: historically that when this sort of panic has set in, Uh, 168 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: the academics are some of the first people to come 169 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: under suspicion. Journalists, of course, it makes sense that a 170 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 1: journalist like Drew Pearson would be implicated for criticizing McCarthy 171 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: because this was in some ways a media driven power play. Yeah. 172 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: Media had gotten him where he was by promoting this 173 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: this speech in front of the women's group and the 174 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: list and everything, and if the media started to doubt 175 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: his methods and whether there was any evidence, it seems 176 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: like his his whole kingdom could crumble pretty quickly. So 177 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: you want to certainly have the media concerned about their 178 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: their own jobs. And then he starts swinging a little 179 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: bit above his weight class too, because one of the 180 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: things he does is we we mentioned that he has 181 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: also called into question politicians no one would be William Benton. 182 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: But also he's made uh some let's say some in 183 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: your windows about the Eisenhower administration, members of that administration, 184 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: and he also starts to investigate higher level members of 185 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: the military. Now, of course we know Eisenhower served in 186 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: the military before he became president, so this is at 187 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: the very least ambitious his territory. It's Eisenhower's territory for sure. 188 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: And before we we that's hinting certainly yet and Marthy's 189 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: downfall getting in a little over his head. But we 190 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: should talk to more about how he runs the runs 191 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 1: a show almost and maybe even play a clip of that. 192 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: But um, just to to give an example of how 193 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: small a world this became. After the three Democrats on 194 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: his committee resign over some unilateral staff hiring issues, you know, 195 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: not consulting with the committee before hiring the staff, a 196 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 1: lot the Republican senators on the committee stopped showing up too, 197 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: because McCarthy will call these hearings suddenly, it'll be a 198 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: very short notice, it will be an inconvenient location, and 199 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: so people sort of stopped coming and it it really 200 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: does become McCarthy's show. McCarthy his his lead counsel, and um, 201 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: let's play a clip of one of these interrogations. I 202 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: will not give those names to them. When they said 203 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: that our function and coming back on the committee is 204 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: not to expose and prosecute Tomas. So he would you 205 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: like to hear this it's about you? But the effects 206 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: say our functions not to expose. I've always I want 207 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: when you asked me, and I'd say that that's what 208 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna face this and you don't have to have everyone. 209 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: I don't ask you all the time. They're talking now 210 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: from the clip we just played, there are a couple 211 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: of things that are parents. Um. There there's a very specific, 212 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: almost bullying style. I mean, let's take out the almost 213 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: there and there's there's a bullying style to this. Now, 214 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: anyone who has seen congressional hearings before knows that there's 215 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: certainly not the most merry and amiable places, you know, 216 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: our conversations. Uh. But as as McCarthy's power grows, the 217 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: public wants to see more of this and what more 218 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: access to this? Uh, this McCarthy investigation reality television what 219 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: you know what that is? Such an accurate thing to say. 220 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: In April of nineteen McCarthy's latest hearing has become broadcast 221 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: on national television, and the American public gets the chance 222 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: to observe firsthand the senators way of speaking, the method 223 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: to his madness. Right, what is this guy like in action? 224 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: What does he consider evidence? Uh? What does he listen for? 225 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: How does he react? What to him is, if anything, 226 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: proof of innocence? And the public does not like it. No, 227 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't look very good. And unfortunately for McCarthy, he 228 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: had kind of already caused himself a little bit of 229 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: trouble shortly before this. One of his aids had used 230 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: the McCarthy connection to get himself a good position when 231 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: he was drafted into the army. Kind of an ironic 232 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: situation when you are taking on the army. And so 233 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: in April nineteen fifty four, when McCarthy and and his 234 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: his company started questioning members of the Armed services about 235 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: their alleged involvement with the Communist Party or the Soviet government, 236 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: his tactics really did start to look sort of unsavory. 237 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: They did look like bullying. It looked, uh, it didn't 238 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: look like what people were imagining. This sort of crusader 239 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: to to to be and um his his opposing side 240 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: of the Special Counsel for the Army, Joseph nigh Welch, 241 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: was really great at out maneuvering him too. He was 242 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: able to call out the lack of evidence and the 243 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: style of his delivery as being inappropriate and quite famously 244 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: says quote, have you no sense of decency? Sir? At 245 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: long last? Have you left no sense of decency? That's 246 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: really the point when the public turns on McCarthy. They're 247 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: all watching rapidly at home, these these hearings. But what's 248 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: so interesting to me. It's a little hard to imagine, 249 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: isn't it that people would all be watching something like 250 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: this now. But television plays such a huge role in 251 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: the downfall of McCarthy because we've we've just discussed his 252 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: taking on the army, getting in a little over his head. 253 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: But he also goes after the wrong newsman eventually, Yeah, 254 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: he goes after the worst possible newsman for him to target. Uh, McCarthy, 255 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: has you know a heart? I very rarely use the 256 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: word epic, Sarah, because I think that that word like awesomer, brilliant, 257 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: has kind of been watered down. So in the classical sense, 258 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: this is an epic confrontation that that evolves when McCarthy 259 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: and Edward Murrow start butting heads. Now, at this time, 260 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: Edward Murrow has a show called See It Now, And 261 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: we should say to this is slightly before the army 262 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: hearing this is, yeah, and the chronology is slightly before 263 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: the army units. So at this time Murrow and his 264 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: co workers, his team, they are like any other members 265 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: of the media establishment. They do not want to be blacklisted, 266 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: They do not want to be targeted as possible communists abversives. 267 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 1: So they do the whole nine the people of this time, 268 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: do they take the loyalty oath? They publicly, and I 269 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: won't say gratuitously, but they publicly and emphatically pronounced their 270 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: loyalties to the American way of life, uh, the you know, 271 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: the West, the western side of the Cold War, you know. Uh. 272 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: But Edward Murrow and his his group begin an investigation 273 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: of McCarthy. Now, when they first start doing this, they're 274 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: not confronting him with it. So the so so for 275 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: a very long time before McCarthy Murrow publicly butt heads, 276 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: Murrow is gathering evidence. He's he's picking up and this 277 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: is so clever. He's picking up contradictory statements that McCarthy 278 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: is making and and facts that have changed to suit, um, 279 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: McCarthy's purpose at the time, and he's just storing it. 280 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: He's biding his time and he's waiting, which I think 281 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,239 Speaker 1: is a masterful, pretty genius well. And the other thing 282 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: that I consider really masterful is he doesn't debut it 283 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: in an attack on McCarthy. He he debuts the suggestion 284 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: that he might be up to something by covering a 285 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: case of an Air Force lieutenant who has been dismissed 286 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: over his mother and sisters communist ties. Just a good story, 287 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: you know. And uh, not too long after that program 288 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: aired on see it now, Uh, the lieutenant was reinstated. 289 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: So at that point, clearly Murrow is a target of McCarthy. 290 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: But because Murrow has been working so carefully all along, um, 291 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, preparing for winter by gathering information, he's ready 292 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: to go already, he's got the information he needs and 293 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: he's ready to put out a show that's not just 294 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: about a lieutenant who's been affected by um this this 295 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: whole situation. Uh. Um. But McCarthy himself, yes, he's going after. 296 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: The biggest fish of McCarthy is um the man himself. 297 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: And now this may seem predictable. McCarthy's initial response to 298 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: Murrow's to Murrow's evisceration really on See It Now is 299 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: U two in a in a sort of I'm just 300 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: saying way. He kind of points out a few few 301 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: choice passages from something Murrow had written earlier, and ultimately 302 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: applies that perhaps Murrow himself as a communist, because otherwise, 303 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: you know, of course, why else would you have a 304 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: problem with it unless you're unless you yourself are a 305 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: red um. It doesn't work, no, And Murrow and his 306 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: network do, of course allow McCarthy to appear on the 307 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: show and offer some sort of rebuttal and uh, that 308 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: doesn't do McCarthy any favors either, because you were talking 309 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: about Morrow's See It Now program on McCarthy being an asseration. 310 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: But it's not as though Murrow we're editorializing on subject, 311 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: not at all. He very much allowed McCarthy's own words 312 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: to speak for themselves, using clips of McCarthy, pictures of them, 313 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: quotes from him, and then of course giving him the 314 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: second hour or I don't know, however, long the show 315 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: was Yeah, to to speak for himself again, Um, it 316 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: didn't put McCarthy in a favorable light. That happened in 317 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: March nineteen fifty four. He responded a month later, of course, 318 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: April nineteen fifty four. Also, when all of these televised 319 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: Army hearings are going on. It's just the perfect storm 320 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: of bad media coverage for McCarthy, live, national, whatever it 321 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: may be. He doesn't look good. No, he does not 322 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: look good. And his colleagues in the Senate are catching 323 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: wind of this as well. Now, remember he wasn't everybody's 324 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: favorite person in the big getting. And it's strange that 325 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: this is such a brief period of time. It's you know, 326 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: it's pretty four years. Yeah, and as his as his 327 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: star is fading or maybe plummeting um. In December of 328 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, the Senate votes to censure him, or 329 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: they basically they vote to publicly rebuke him. And although 330 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: he will remain in the Senate for more than two 331 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: years after this, his reputation is ruined. And uh, he 332 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: is no longer um, no longer even commands a fraction 333 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: of the public attention he once held. No, he does, 334 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: of course continue to speak out against communism. But he 335 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: doesn't even live much longer than this. He died in 336 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven at a fairly young age of complications 337 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 1: from alcoholism. UM. So yeah, you really can look at 338 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: this in nineteen fifty four and date to his work 339 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: related to well, certainly McCarthy ism since AMPARs his name. 340 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: But but the second wave of the Red scare. That's 341 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: not to say though, that it ended when he was censured, 342 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: when he was eventually voted out when he died. Of course, 343 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: numerous academics and entertainers, government officials, um. People found that 344 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: these accusations had permanently damaged their careers. It wasn't something 345 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: that you could just everybody agreed, well, McCarthy, what we 346 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: were we thinking there for a few years, do you 347 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: want to come back and get your old job again? 348 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: Of course it's not going to work like that and happened. No, 349 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: Unfortunately that was not the case. Association with those hearings 350 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: or was someone involved could still be enough to have 351 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: an impact on one's career, and as we know, the 352 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: h u a C continued its investigations. Uh then did 353 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: not need McCarthy's public image or help because again they 354 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: weren't really associated exactly the h v C hearings could 355 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: have exactly that same effect of permanently damaging your career. 356 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit in the last episode 357 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: about how the h a C initially focused on Hollywood 358 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: and especially on celebrities to really promote their their cause 359 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: and and get some media attention behind it. And while 360 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: some of the early hearings were with these friendly witnesses, 361 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: others were about making people name names. And after that 362 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: first round of big stars that they called in UM, 363 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: there came a batch of writers, directors, and a producer 364 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: who were called the Hollywood Ten, and UM, instead of 365 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: participating in these hearings, the Hollywood Ten didn't think that 366 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: the committee had the right to question them and challenge 367 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: the committee's authority to do so, and eventually spent a 368 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: year in federal prison for contempt of court. Um. The 369 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: h a C really kept going in Hollywood until nineteen 370 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: fifty two, but ultimately more than three people were blacklisted, 371 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: and those blacklists did last. They lasted. Some people consider 372 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: that they lasted until the early sixties when there was 373 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: finally a lawsuit, but it was of course made worse 374 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: too by the nineteen fifty publication of the pamphlet Red Channels, 375 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: and that had some really famous names in it, and 376 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: Red Channels. This, this pamphlet pretty much existed to tell 377 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: the readers that other people were communists. So this Red 378 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: Channels refers to the channels through which the Reds communicate 379 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: to secretly overthrow the US government via Hollywood. All right, 380 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: I mean it's not necessarily Hollywood. Uh, not necessarily only celebrities, 381 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: all kinds of the entertainer. I mean, we can list 382 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: a few of them here. Leonard Bernston, Orson Welles, we 383 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: to Horn, Alan Lomax, burl Ives Um Burl i'ves I 384 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: read a little bit more about him because I was thinking, 385 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, he's the snowman on Rudolph Trendner's Ranger. Um. 386 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: He was able to maintain a career through the fifties 387 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: because he was willing to to talk to the talk 388 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 1: to people, you know, um name names. But I found 389 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: this story by an actress named Marcia Hunt really compelling. 390 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: She was at the height of her career in nineteen fifty. 391 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: She had been in movies throughout the forties, and she 392 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: was on the brink of television deal. She had offers 393 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: from three networks she was just waiting to hear in 394 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty and then her name is published in Red 395 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 1: Channels and UM with six citations of of suspicious things 396 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: she had done and UM. She she talked about how 397 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: those were all things it wasn't it up. They were 398 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: all things she had done and things that she did 399 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: believe in, but things that she never would have considered 400 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: subversive in any way. Oh, that's exactly what she said. 401 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: She said, quote I was amazed to learn that they 402 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: were considered subversive in some way. And UM. She also 403 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: gave a great example of how hard it was to 404 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: clear your name with with cases like this and UM 405 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: or not even cases, just the suspense, just your name 406 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: is published and suddenly all your network deals disappear. She 407 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: talked about how there was just nothing she could do. 408 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: She tried writing letters to the networks, explaining that she 409 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: didn't know about communism, she didn't care for communism, she 410 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: had tried to serve her country in the best way 411 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: she could during World War Two. Never heard back from 412 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: any of them, because the possibly their response could have 413 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: been something suddenly you have a subversive connection then um. 414 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: But of course, a bunch of creative people unable to 415 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: to work look for other places. I think the theater 416 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: was apparently not as not affected, or at least Marcia 417 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: Hunt mentioned that she was able to continue working in 418 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: the theater um. But of course, to the theme of 419 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: witch hunts gets into entertainment too, into plays people right 420 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: into movies that people make. It's a it's a captivating theme. Yes, 421 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: it's a captivating theme, and it's one that resonates clearly 422 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: resonates with the creative community at the time, but it 423 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: also resonates with the national consciousness at this point. And uh, 424 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, one of the most famous examples of that 425 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: would be Arthur Miller's The Crucible ostensibly about which trials 426 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, I should have said, sensibly about the 427 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: Salem witch trials um and also on level clearly about 428 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: the h U a C investigations that the need to 429 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: as we say, name names. Now Marcia Hunt serves as 430 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: a great example of how this actually happened. One thing 431 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: that this situation makes us do is is play a 432 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: little bit of a what if game. What if Marcia 433 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: Hunt had gotten a television show? You know, what would 434 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: have happened? What what would our opinion of her be today. Unfortunately, 435 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: we'll never know because her career was cut short, and 436 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: it was cut short because of this panic. And I 437 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: guess at this time I should put in a disclaimer 438 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: for everyone listening, because this is such a recent event 439 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: over the span of history. And it reminds me that 440 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: William Faulkner quote quotation where he notes that the past 441 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: hasn't really even passed yet, um, by which he means 442 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: and I am paraphrasing, Sorry, I don't know I sent 443 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: you bad mail about that, but send them to Ben. 444 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 1: Your podcast email is please, please do send them to me. 445 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: And the point that Faulkner makes in there is that 446 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: it's it's difficult for us to see the long term 447 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: consequences or ripple effects of some events. Now, the second 448 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: Red Scare, if we look at this from our very 449 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: recent retrospective stance, then we can see that the Red 450 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: Scare was what people call a moral panic. Now, a 451 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: moral panic is different from something like a panic over 452 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: microbes in the water, for instance. You know that's a 453 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: discernible thing and can take concrete steps to prevent public 454 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: health problem. But a moral panic is a widespread public 455 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: anxiety or an alarm because there's a threat that seems 456 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: to to uh endanger our moral fabric are values, uh, 457 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: the American way, the apple pie, the mom with the 458 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: april in the whole nine, and these things are not 459 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: You are neither unique to our culture nor unique to 460 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: this period in time. Um. Of course, the national atmosphere 461 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: of the time is uh sort of ripe for the 462 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: conspiracies of the international atmosphere. Absolutely absolutely, because this is 463 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: a global this is a global battle, a global ideological battle. 464 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: So McCarthy of course was able to take advantage of 465 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: that situation. Though by presenting a very intimidating front, he 466 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: had this influence. He had had a real ability to 467 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: ruin somebody's career, really disrupt their life, because a lot 468 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: of the sources that would normally fact check or criticize 469 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: his investigations and allegations were too intimidated to speak up. 470 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: We talked about how he was going after journalists too. 471 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: We talked about how Murrow's coverage was such a huge deal. 472 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: It's kind of amazing nobody does anything like that before 473 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: nine if this has gone on for four years, UM. 474 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: But protesting the McCarthy methods, protesting against McCarthy himself too 475 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: loud lately could be interpreted as communist sympathies, which is 476 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: why Edward Murrow had to be so very meticulous and 477 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: principled in his analysis. Now, of course this was criticism, 478 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: but to have pursued this any other way would have 479 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: very likely put his career in danger. Today, Joseph McCarthy 480 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: m most people remember him as an opportunistic, perhaps power 481 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: hungry individual who clung to this conspiracy theory, maybe for 482 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: the attention, maybe because he really believed it. And now 483 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: McCarthy ism has become synonymous with inquisitions, which Hunt's bullying, 484 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: even though it was not initially a negative term. No, 485 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: it was it was something about being principled and determined 486 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: to root out something that you strongly did not believe in. Right, Yeah, 487 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: that's such a great point. This wasn't always a pejorative. 488 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: So there's a continuing debate today about Joseph McCarthy and 489 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: his role. You'll hear some people who support McCarthy saying 490 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: that perhaps he had access to documents that were classified 491 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: that the American public wouldn't know about out and maybe 492 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: that's why it seemed as though there were no proof Um, 493 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: there is storians who will also say that some of 494 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: not all by any means, but some of the people 495 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: investigated did have relationship with the Soviet government. There are 496 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: some people who say that he is a flawed hero 497 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: and that he's been swindled by history. Those arguments, those 498 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: last arguments especially, are largely considered revisionist arguments. Although it 499 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: is true, um, that we did learn more about this 500 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: situation in recent years, it only makes it more complicated. 501 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: And I really think we're interesting. But um, before we 502 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: we wrap up on McCarthy, I want to get into 503 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: the conspiracy theory again and and get your analysis on 504 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: what did what did he do wrong? Okay? Yes, okay? 505 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: What makes him a What makes him a conspiracy theorist? Okay, yes? 506 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: What makes him a conspira is se theorists. What makes 507 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 1: makes me throw him in with some of the other crazy, 508 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: crazier folks is that he practiced a sort of confirmation bias. Primarily, 509 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,800 Speaker 1: he looked for things that conformed to his pre existing idea, 510 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: ignoring the rest, Yes, and ignoring the rest today we'll 511 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: call it cherry pickings. So in in the investigations, you 512 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: can see that he takes quotes out of context, or 513 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: even an event out of context, you can see that 514 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: he believes in guilt by association. Uh. The Air Force 515 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: member that we mentioned earlier was guilty by association only 516 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: because of his wife, right, his mother, and his mother 517 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: and his sister, And that didn't have really much to 518 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: do with him except that he knew them. UM. And then, 519 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: perhaps most importantly, he did not substantiate his claims. Now again, 520 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: people who fend Joseph McCarthy will say that some of 521 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: his claims have been substantiated in later declassified documents like 522 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: the Venona papers. However, UM, as far as taking quotes 523 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: out of context, confirmation bias, believing in guilt, guilt by association, 524 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: in those terms, this is a conspiracy theory, and he 525 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: was not going to let a couple of things like 526 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: facts interfere with that. UM. Interestingly enough, we can see 527 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: some of we can see some of those practices in 528 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: some world governments today. In North Korea, for example, Guilt 529 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: by association is is practiced UM on a generational level. 530 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: And McCarthy, over all of those points you just named, 531 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 1: there's the gloss of his his bullying, or that's how 532 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 1: most people describe it his his presentation of all of this. Um. 533 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: I one of the first things when you suggest at 534 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: this topic I thought of was, Uh, Julia Child's husband, 535 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: Paul Child and um our producer Lizzie and I have 536 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: been talking recently about Julia Child's great memoir, My Life 537 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: in France, and I remember that there is a part 538 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: where her husband is is implicated, UM because he's a 539 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: he works in the Foreign Service, and he's called back 540 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: to Washington for questioning and everything. UM. But Julia Child 541 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: refers to to McCarthy and to um his disciples sort 542 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: of and and describes them as bully boys, these these younger, 543 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: younger McCarthy guys who come to Paris and are investigating 544 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 1: the Foreign Service. There really just such a straightforward description. 545 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: I think it gets everything across. Everybody knows what a 546 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: bully is and how a bully acts, and I think 547 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: that that's really what makes all of this possible, because 548 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: if you just take quotes out of context or believe 549 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: in guilt by association and that don't have the personality, 550 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 1: the bullying personality, that right, you're not going to get 551 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: any any airtime. Yes, that's such a good point, the bullying, 552 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: especially because who would listen to this if they did 553 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: not feel compelled to. Now, as as we said, this 554 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: event did happen so recently in history that it is 555 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: it is possible, if not plausible, it is possible that 556 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: perhaps later some sort of declassified document from the KGB 557 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: era will show up that completely vindicates Okay, and and 558 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: and I'm not saying it's probable or even plausible, but 559 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: it is is just not quite impossible that maybe some 560 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: document will come out and it will turn out that 561 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 1: his conspiracy theory was true. However, based on the way 562 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: he handled it, it seems as though, uh, this clearly 563 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: was not the case. In regardless of whether the conspiracy 564 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: theory proved to be true, so many people who clearly 565 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with any of this foster livelihoods 566 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,959 Speaker 1: and had their lives shaken up absolutely. Which is why, 567 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: especially if you're going to be conducting an investigation like this, 568 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: it's it's probably better to not be quite as bombastic. 569 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: But power is a crazy thing, and access to power, 570 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: the opportunity to garner more power, will make some people 571 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: do some very very odd stuff. Thank you so much 572 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: for leamy be on your show, Thank you for joining 573 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: me and I certainly want to recommend that folks check 574 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: out other weird Cold War conspiracies on your show, then 575 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. I'm sure you 576 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: guys have covered lots of bizarre things. Oh gosh, yeah, 577 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: we have. We we have lots of bizarre stuff. We 578 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: have a couple of we have a couple of episodes 579 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: that will touch on Cold War things. UM, and the 580 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: KGB we're always is interested to hear more so, if 581 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: you have any suggestions for topics which should cover, please 582 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: let us know. This was a lot of fun, the 583 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 1: McCarthy uh stuff, by the way it was. And if 584 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,280 Speaker 1: you have suggestions for the History podcast, you can email 585 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: us at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're on 586 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 1: Twitter at Myston History, and we are on Facebook. And 587 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: I just thought it would be fun to wrap up 588 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: with more upbeat fact um. Not too long ago, the 589 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: Writers Guild eventually corrected the credits on many films that 590 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: they were re released or that were being re released 591 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:40,439 Speaker 1: UM that had had blacklisted professionals listed under pseudonyms. Because 592 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: some of these people they needed to work, they couldn't 593 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,280 Speaker 1: leave the country or something, UM, so they continued to work. 594 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 1: But they wrote under different names, and some of these 595 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: are finally being corrected and restored to the uh you know, 596 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: it can be on their IMDb page now. Um. I 597 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: think that's a nice esture for something like this. It 598 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: certainly can't make up for a career that's dramatically affected. 599 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: But to get your credit, or to have the families 600 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: be able to see their family member if they've already 601 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: passed on, see their name restored to something they have 602 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: worked on, I think is really cool. What a wonderful 603 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: thing that is, a little bit of sunlight through the 604 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: clouds it is. If you don't want sunlight, though, you 605 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: can go read the article on how McCarthy isum works 606 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: get right back into it how You can find that 607 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: on our home page at that www. Dot how stuff 608 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 609 00:41:41,320 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.