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Speaker 1: This episode of Wrongful Conviction contains discussion of sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: Please listen with caution and care.

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Speaker 2: At five a m. On August third, nineteen eighty seven,

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Speaker 2: at the Good Times Tavern in Green Bay, Wisconsin, the

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Speaker 2: opening bartender discovered that the lights were still on, the

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Speaker 2: safe was open and empty, and the previous night's bartender,

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Speaker 2: Sandra Lyson, her car was still in the parking lot.

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Speaker 2: The following day, her body was discovered in a forest

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Speaker 2: about thirty miles north of Green Bay. She had been

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Speaker 2: fatally strangled, and seamen was collected in a rape kit.

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Speaker 2: Investigators interviewed people who had gone to the tavern that night,

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Speaker 2: including thirty one year old Bobby Bentz along with his

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Speaker 2: brother David. The case went cold for nearly twelve years

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Speaker 2: until David Bentz was in prison for an unrelated crime

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Speaker 2: and allegedly confessed to a cellmate that he'd killed Sandra

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Speaker 2: Lyson with his brother Bobby. This is wrongful Conviction. The

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Speaker 2: Fox Foundation is proud to support this episode of wrongful

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Speaker 2: Conviction and the work of After Innocence, a nonprofit that

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Speaker 2: helps hundreds of people nationwide rebuild their lives after wrongful

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Speaker 2: incarceration each year. Innocent people are released after spending years

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Speaker 2: behind bars for crimes they didn't commit. Nearly all of

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Speaker 2: them leave prison with nothing more than the clothes on

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Speaker 2: their backs, with no help or compensation from the state

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Speaker 2: as they face the steep challenges of rebuilding their lives

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Speaker 2: after wrongful imprisonment. After Innocence is changing that After Innocence

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Speaker 2: helps exoneries get and make good use of essential services

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Speaker 2: like health care, dental care, mental health support, legal aid,

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Speaker 2: financial counseling, and more. Since twenty sixteen, they've brought that

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Speaker 2: help to more than eight hundred exoneries across forty six states,

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Speaker 2: working tirelessly to ensure that no one released after wrongful

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Speaker 2: incarceration is left behind. Learn more at after dash innocence

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Speaker 2: dot org and join after Innocence to support exoneries as

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Speaker 2: they rebuild their lives. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. I'm

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Speaker 2: Lauren Bright Pacheco, and this story takes us to Green Bay, Wisconsin,

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Speaker 2: where a bartending mother of two was tragically taken from

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Speaker 2: her children, while another mother lost two of her boys

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Speaker 2: to the system. And today Bobby Bent joins us, thank

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Speaker 2: you for being here.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome.

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Speaker 2: We also have this attorney from the Great North Innocence Project,

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Speaker 2: Jim Mayer. Welcome, thank you very much, and later we

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Speaker 2: will speak to his brother David as well. Now, Bobby,

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Speaker 2: you guys grew up in Green Bay, which is a

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Speaker 2: big sports town. Were you and your brother into sports.

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Speaker 3: When we were We all got together and played to

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Speaker 3: the ball around, football, baseball when we were kids.

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Speaker 2: Were you too competitive with one another?

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Speaker 1: Well, we're pretty close together a.

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Speaker 2: Year apart, right, yeah. And who's the big brother.

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Speaker 3: I got old brother Eddie too, David the oldest brother

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Speaker 3: of me, Lauren.

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Speaker 4: I was going to mention one thing if you wanted

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Speaker 4: some more filled in detail about their childhood. They did

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Speaker 4: live together on a farm, a foster home kind of

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Speaker 4: during their high school years, where they did a lot

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Speaker 4: of work on a farm. Is kind of interesting.

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Speaker 3: We would clean all the pens out and the gutter

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Speaker 3: and it was a rough childhood.

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Speaker 2: From what we understand. There were substance abuse issues at

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Speaker 2: home that resulted in the boys moving to foster care.

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Speaker 2: But by the time of this crime, Bobby was thirty

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Speaker 2: one years old and despite suffering from intellectual disabilities, both

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Speaker 2: Bobby and David were doing well.

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Speaker 3: I was an East Side of Green Bay, and I

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Speaker 3: worked at a grocery store. I'm a driver, legad my

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Speaker 3: own car. I always went to work. I was a

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Speaker 3: meat wrapper clerk. I cleaned the meat room up really good,

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Speaker 3: and my boss really enjoyed my work. I had to

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Speaker 3: adopt for ten years.

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Speaker 2: And what was David doing at the time.

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Speaker 3: Dave had a house on State Tree in Green Bay,

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Speaker 3: and he had a garage who worked on cars self employee.

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Speaker 3: He had an auto salvage business. I helped him to

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Speaker 3: pull motors out and put other motors in, clean them

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Speaker 3: out and junk them. And you sell cars to it.

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Speaker 3: I helped them all once a while.

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Speaker 2: So you guys both like cars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh cars.

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Speaker 2: Now, the night that this happened, you guys had been

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Speaker 2: to the bar, which was called the Good Times Tavern

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Speaker 2: to buy beer.

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Speaker 3: I went and had a soda, and then I bought

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Speaker 3: a case of beer. I went back to David's Houston.

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Speaker 3: Then after that he went home.

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Speaker 2: And you were upset because you realized you may have

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Speaker 2: been overcharged for the beer.

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Speaker 1: Davi was upset.

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Speaker 2: David believed that the bar's price for a case of

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Speaker 2: beer should have aligned more closely with that of a

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Speaker 2: typical retailer, so we called the Good Times Tavern to

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Speaker 2: voice his outrage, but nothing further. According to the other bargoers,

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Speaker 2: the closing bartender, Sandra Lison, kicked everyone out by about

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Speaker 2: two am. They also mentioned a stranger in a flannel's

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Speaker 2: shirt which seemed off due to the balmy August weather,

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Speaker 2: and then around five AM, a Good Times Tavern employee

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Speaker 2: named Robert Miller came in to get the day started.

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Speaker 4: The man who came in to clean the Good Times

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Speaker 4: Tavern in the morning noticed that something was wrong. The

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Speaker 4: Sunday night bartender Sandra Lyson. Her pack of cigarettes was

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Speaker 4: sitting on the bar, her car was still in the

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Speaker 4: parking lot. The tavern had not been locked and the

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Speaker 4: safe was opened, so clearly something had gone wrong, and

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Speaker 4: Sandra Lyson was nowhere to be seen, so he called the.

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Speaker 2: Police and then her body was found.

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Speaker 4: The body was found about forty eight hours later in

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Speaker 4: a wooded area in a state forest about thirty miles

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Speaker 4: or so north of Green Bay.

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Speaker 2: Curiously, the first responders reported not seeing any drag marks,

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Speaker 2: so perhaps the attack occurred somewhere else. Additionally, she was clothed,

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Speaker 2: but there were leaves and other debris inside her undergarments.

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Speaker 4: The medical examiner actually came out to investigate and examine

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Speaker 4: the body formed the conclusion that the victim had likely

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Speaker 4: been beaten and sexually assaulted and the cause of death

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Speaker 4: was strangulation. So a rape kit was performed. They took

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Speaker 4: samples and they did detect the presence of seamen, which

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Speaker 4: was recovered from the victim's leg and underclothing and dress,

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Speaker 4: and also from a vaginal swab.

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Speaker 2: Now I know that Bobby, you mentioned that David had

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Speaker 2: been upset about the cost of the beer from the

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Speaker 2: night before. So when did the police question you?

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Speaker 3: A couple of days later? This is where you at

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Speaker 3: the bar of the night you a mission. I remember

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Speaker 3: seeing her and the bar I've seen man, but I

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Speaker 3: remember seeing her.

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Speaker 2: Did you think anything else of it? No, we're not

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Speaker 2: sure what happened to any other leads that the police

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Speaker 2: were following, but the case went cold for about four years,

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Speaker 2: at which time sandra license purse was discovered in the

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Speaker 2: woods about ten miles south of Green Bay, so in

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Speaker 2: the opposite direction of where the body was discovered, and

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Speaker 2: who even knows when the purse was deposited there. And

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Speaker 2: then another seven years passed during which time David Bentce

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Speaker 2: was convicted of an unrelated crime and his cellmate Gary

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Speaker 2: Swinby alleged that David Bentce was saying disturbing things in

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Speaker 2: his sleep like quote, killed the bitch Bob unquote.

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Speaker 4: As you mentioned, this cellmate of David's came forward and

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Speaker 4: claimed that he'd been saying things in his sleep. The

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Speaker 4: staff at the prison encouraged the cellmate to engage David

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Speaker 4: in conversation when he woke up. This all leads to

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Speaker 4: the cellmate making a statement to and authorities indicating that

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Speaker 4: he says David had confessed to the crime and implicated

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Speaker 4: his brother Bobby as well. I think people who have

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Speaker 4: prior convictions are always an easier target for a wrongful conviction,

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Speaker 4: as are people who may have particular psychological or intellectual vulnerabilities.

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Speaker 4: You know, those people sometimes get preyed upon. They're not

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Speaker 4: able to defend themselves adequately, and they're at much greater

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Speaker 4: risk of a false confession, of a wrongful conviction, of

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Speaker 4: all kinds of bad outcomes in the criminal legal system.

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Speaker 2: David agreed to speak with us about his unrecorded interrogation

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Speaker 2: in which investigators confronted him with what his cellmate had

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Speaker 2: alleged this guy.

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Speaker 5: I think he thought he could get something out of it.

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Speaker 1: What staff.

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Speaker 5: I never talked to my sleep, never have. When a

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Speaker 5: tectives came and questioned me, as you said I could

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Speaker 5: get up any time of water, they said, I can

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Speaker 5: get up any time of wan. And I know I

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Speaker 5: was alive because they were going to be going till

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Speaker 5: they got a confession. I was in it room for

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Speaker 5: seven hours.

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Speaker 2: You know, we know that best practic this is no

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Speaker 2: more than four hours should somebody be interrogated. And after

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Speaker 2: six hours the incidences of false confessions skyrocket.

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Speaker 5: They won't let me go.

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Speaker 1: So we know you did it. We know you did it.

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Speaker 5: So I said anything to get out of her.

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Speaker 4: We don't know one hundred percent because this was an

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Speaker 4: unrecorded interrogation. This was, from all accounts, an aggressive interrogation,

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Speaker 4: one that was designed to secure a confession to try

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Speaker 4: to solve this cold case. David says several times that

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Speaker 4: he was at home on the night Desander license disappears

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Speaker 4: that he didn't know what happened to her, But at

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Speaker 4: the same time, when they would confront him with the

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Speaker 4: statement from the cellmate, he would say things like you've

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Speaker 4: got it right there. It's in black and white. And

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Speaker 4: so it was sort of a conversation that started going

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Speaker 4: in circles.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't a clearer confession that would.

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Speaker 4: Be putting it generously, but they made the decision that

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Speaker 4: that was close enough to a confession to focus once

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Speaker 4: again on the Vince brothers.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember, Bobby, when you heard that your brother

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Speaker 2: had been accused of talking in his sleep and it

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Speaker 2: named you.

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Speaker 3: I remember people talking about it, but he never talks

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Speaker 3: in his sleep.

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Speaker 2: But now they have a false confession from David, and

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Speaker 2: then they go to you, Bobby, and say you're under arrest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They rested me at my apartment. They said you're under

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Speaker 3: arrest for the murder of Sandral License. And I had

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Speaker 3: my girlfriend in my house too with me, and she's, honey,

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Speaker 3: no go, I said I have to, So you put

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Speaker 3: the couch on me.

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Speaker 2: What went through your head? Did you think that this

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Speaker 2: was some big mistake?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I was.

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Speaker 1: I was scared and upset.

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Speaker 2: And sometime between as a rest and trial, the state

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Speaker 2: found someone who was willing to claim they'd heard Bobby

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Speaker 2: confess as well.

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Speaker 1: That was Joan Andrews.

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Speaker 4: So this witness told the court in Bobby's trial that

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Speaker 4: she had been giving him a ride to go and

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Speaker 4: visit his mother up north in the direction of the

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Speaker 4: Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and that during that ride he

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Speaker 4: had somehow confessed to being involved in Sandra License murder.

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Speaker 4: Of course, what also came out at the trial, though

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Speaker 4: it didn't end up making any difference, was the fact

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Speaker 4: that his mother had never lived up in that area,

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Speaker 4: in fact, lived south of Green Bay.

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Speaker 2: If I'm not mistaken, yep, okay, So can you tell me,

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Speaker 2: Jim about the DNA evidence that they were aware of

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Speaker 2: before the brothers even were put on trial.

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Speaker 4: Well, as you can recall, in nineteen eighty seven, at

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Speaker 4: the time that the murder happened and the body was recovered,

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Speaker 4: DNA testing was not quite as advanced and widespread. And

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Speaker 4: then if we fast forward the twelve years to and

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Speaker 4: they are thinking about charging the Vince brothers, they realize

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Speaker 4: we've got this rich source of DNA from the crime scene.

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Speaker 4: They get a search warrant to take samples from Bobby

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Speaker 4: and David to compare against the profile from the semen

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Speaker 4: left at the crime scene. And when they did that comparison,

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Speaker 4: both brothers were excluded as the source of the semen.

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Speaker 2: So of course they called off the trial and let

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Speaker 2: the brothers.

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Speaker 4: Go right, No, that we wouldn't be here if that

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Speaker 4: had happened. But of course they were at a crossroads.

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Speaker 4: Do we go with the physical evidence, which we know

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Speaker 4: is strongly indicative of a sexual assault and strongly suggesting

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Speaker 4: that the person whose bodily fluids are at the crime

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Speaker 4: scene is the person responsible. Or do they abandon that

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Speaker 4: and go after these two guys who have no connection

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Speaker 4: to the crime based on the physical evidence, and they

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Speaker 4: chose the latter. They chose to go after Bobby and David.

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Speaker 4: The state very strongly argued at both trials, this is

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Speaker 4: obviously not a sexual assault. This is simply a robbery

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Speaker 4: and a murder. Any previous thoughts that this may be

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Speaker 4: a sexual assault were pure speculation and not true.

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Speaker 2: Remember, the body was discovered clothed, but with leaves and

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Speaker 2: other debris in the undergarments, suggesting that the body was

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Speaker 2: likely unclothed outdoors. Then there was semen collected from her leg,

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Speaker 2: clothing and inside her body. So the theory was that

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Speaker 2: the sperm came from consensual sex that occurred prior to

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Speaker 2: her fourteen hour bartending shift, and that she simply let

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Speaker 2: the seamen just live on her leg and clothing. And

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Speaker 2: then they called experts to the stand to corroborate that theory.

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Speaker 4: They present a testimony from a couple of different experts

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Speaker 4: about when the semen would have been deposited based on

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Speaker 4: the condition they found it in, and what the medical

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00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,120
Speaker 4: examiner said on the witness stand was this most likely

253
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Speaker 4: was deposited either after the death up to twenty four

254
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Speaker 4: hours after the death, most likely recent and what the

255
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Speaker 4: specific words were, seventy five percent likelihood that the sperm

256
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 4: was left there within twenty four hours of the death,

257
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Speaker 4: which makes it very implausible that this was a consensual

258
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,679
Speaker 4: sexual encounter because she was working a twelve to fourteen

259
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Speaker 4: hour bartending shift right before this event. You know, she

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Speaker 4: got up in the morning, she went to a bartending shift,

261
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,080
Speaker 4: and it was implausible enough that she would have had

262
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,840
Speaker 4: this sexual encounter and not cleaned up or anything. But still,

263
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,320
Speaker 4: even so, in the closing argument, the prosecutor twisted those

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00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,760
Speaker 4: words around and said it was most likely between twenty

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Speaker 4: four and forty eight hours when it was deposited. At

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Speaker 4: least that's what he said at Bobby's trial, and so

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Speaker 4: I read that transcript and I just get angry. I

268
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,080
Speaker 4: don't know that that made the difference, but it makes

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Speaker 4: you think that sometimes this is a game of inches

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Speaker 4: and prosecutors and everyone involved in the system needs to

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Speaker 4: be scrupulously honest when they're talking about the evidence.

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Speaker 2: Bobby, tell me about the trial from your perspective.

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Speaker 3: Well, when I went to court, I was really upset.

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Speaker 3: And the guy that said David talking and sleep, his

275
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Speaker 3: name was Gary Swenbee.

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Speaker 1: He got out.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't cross examine him because he got killed in

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Speaker 3: a car accident a month before my trial. I couldn't

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Speaker 3: cross examine a piece of paper, you know. So I

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00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 3: didn't get a fair trial in Green Bay at all.

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Speaker 2: All right, So take me to the moment of the

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Speaker 2: verdict guilty.

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Speaker 3: The judge said, I send you to the prison the

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Speaker 3: rest of your natural life. I just broke down in tears.

285
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Speaker 3: I just broke down, and the daughter stood up in court.

286
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Speaker 3: I said, I'm sorry for what happened, but I said,

287
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 3: I did not kill your mom. Well, it's really nasty

288
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,120
Speaker 3: in there, and it's filthy, and the medical hsu A

289
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,320
Speaker 3: health department is terrible. I went to the hospital almost

290
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Speaker 3: every week by resis squad from the prison.

291
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Speaker 1: I got asthma real bad.

292
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Speaker 2: Were you guys held anywhere near one another?

293
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,440
Speaker 3: We're at Green Bay together for a few years. I

294
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,640
Speaker 3: was in a dorm with Dave. You're so glad to

295
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 3: see me when I came in.

296
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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, a lot of people form relationships

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00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 2: like brothers when they're serving time together. But was it

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00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,920
Speaker 2: somewhat of a comfort that you guys were in the

299
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 2: same place even though you were both living the same nightmare?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

301
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 2: Did you guys think that it was just a matter

302
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 2: of time before they realized they had made a mistake?

303
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it took a few.

304
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Speaker 2: Years, fortunately for both of them. David's case was picked

305
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,560
Speaker 2: up by the Wisconsin Innocence Project. After all, despite his

306
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 2: previous conviction, he too had been wrongfully convicted of this crime,

307
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 2: and there was biological evidence that could exonerate him and

308
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 2: his brother. They secured additional DNA testing in two thousand

309
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:07,359
Speaker 2: and six.

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Speaker 4: Additional testing had shown that there was male blood on

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Speaker 4: the victim's dress, and the person who deposited the blood

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00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,440
Speaker 4: on the victim's dress was the same person who deposited

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00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,480
Speaker 4: the semen. So that really strongly supported the initial conclusion

314
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,479
Speaker 4: that this was a sexual assault and that the person.

315
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Speaker 4: It sounds crazy that I even have to say it,

316
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,119
Speaker 4: that most likely the man whose blood and semen was

317
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,119
Speaker 4: on the crime scene was responsible for the crime. So

318
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 4: the Wisconsin Innocence Projects sought post conviction relief for David.

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Speaker 4: They tried to get his conviction tossed out, get him

320
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 4: a new trial. The state opposed relief for David. This

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00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,119
Speaker 4: is just speculation to say that this man's blood and

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00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 4: semen on the victim are indicative of sexual assault. And

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00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,680
Speaker 4: the court unfortunately agreed with the state, denied the motion

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Speaker 4: that was affirmed on appeal and the bench Brothers would

325
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Speaker 4: spend another fifteen years in prison after that decision was made.

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Speaker 2: That decision seems completely divorced from reality, and this was

327
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 2: obviously a major setback. How do you come up with

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00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,639
Speaker 2: more convincing evidence than that, Well, that's what the Great

329
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,680
Speaker 2: North Innocence Projects set out to do in twenty eighteen, and.

330
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Speaker 4: So we set out to test every piece of physical

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Speaker 4: evidence remaining at that crime scene, every bloodstain, every hair,

332
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 4: everything we could get a profile from, and nothing from

333
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,639
Speaker 4: that crime scene of this supposedly very intimate physical crime.

334
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,399
Speaker 4: Nothing from that scene connected either Bobby or David Bince

335
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,879
Speaker 4: to the murder, but what we did see was the

336
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,680
Speaker 4: same unknown male profile that kept coming up.

337
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 2: Since the unknown male profile cannot be identified in CODIS,

338
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 2: they tried another path. The lab was able to develop

339
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,560
Speaker 2: a special kind of DNA profile, which can be used

340
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 2: to trace ancestry through public genealogical databases. They worked with

341
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,920
Speaker 2: a genealogist going through birth, death and other public records

342
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,840
Speaker 2: to close in on the origin of this profile. It

343
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,159
Speaker 2: took almost five years.

344
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,199
Speaker 4: After a long, long stretch of doing that work and

345
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 4: almost giving up, we finally were able to narrow the

346
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 4: search to one family that had three male children who

347
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 4: were all of suitable age and living in the Green

348
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,639
Speaker 4: Bay area at the time of the crime. One of

349
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,880
Speaker 4: those three was William Hendrix, and he immediately stood out

350
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,400
Speaker 4: because of his past. He had prior convictions for sexual assault.

351
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 4: Their victim in that case said that he had threatened

352
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Speaker 4: to strangle her at some point, which, of course was

353
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,520
Speaker 4: sandra License cause of death. He had just been released

354
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Speaker 4: from prison less than a year before Sandra Lyson was abducted.

355
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Speaker 4: We also know that he previously lived about thirty to

356
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,400
Speaker 4: forty miles north of Green Bay, so that he would

357
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Speaker 4: have driven by that state forest where the body was

358
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 4: found many many times as he went back and forth

359
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,400
Speaker 4: between that old place where he lived and Green Bay.

360
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 4: And at the time of the abduction, he lived in

361
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Speaker 4: the neighborhood of the Good Times Tavern.

362
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 2: But once they'd made this potential match, they needed to

363
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 2: compare the DNA profile with a sample from William Hendrix himself. However,

364
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 2: Hendrix had died in April of two thousand.

365
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 4: After securing a court order to exhume the body, it

366
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 4: was transported to the Brown County Medical Examiner's office and

367
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 4: samples were taken and then sent off to the lab

368
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,199
Speaker 4: for DNA analysis.

369
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 2: And when they came back.

370
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 4: I'll never forget the day that they came back with

371
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 4: the results testing the femur that was taken from the

372
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 4: body and comparing it to the crime scene evidence, and

373
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 4: the number that was given to us by the Wisconsin

374
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 4: State Crime Lab was that this was a match with

375
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,160
Speaker 4: a likelihood of one in three hundred and twenty nine trillion.

376
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 2: Beyond a doubt. How did you share the news with Bobby?

377
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 4: We called Bobby that day, and I'm looking at him

378
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 4: because I'm sure he remembers that phone call. He's smiling,

379
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 4: so blessed and we finally got the truth. And I

380
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 4: was really emotion on the phone. I chears in my

381
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 4: eyes and just emotional. I could hardly talk. We said,

382
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 4: we knew this was gonna be happen, but now it

383
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 4: finally has. You're gonna be able to go home soon.

384
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,119
Speaker 3: It would just say happy, said feeling, But it's a

385
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 3: good feeling. I told the guys just keep your head

386
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 3: up and keep the faith. And one guy, she let

387
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 3: me give you a hug. And I know you're not

388
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 3: a gilt I told you from the get go. I

389
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 3: wouldn't hurt him fly, I would never kill anybody. Backed

390
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 3: myself and left everything behind and just grow up my

391
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 3: paperwork and all that stuff. And boy was I blessed

392
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 3: to have good attorneys out of Teat like you and

393
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: Chris Well.

394
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,879
Speaker 4: There's no better days than the day that someone like

395
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 4: Bobby walks out of prison and you can be there

396
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 4: to enjoy it with him. And so it was, you know,

397
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 4: I think he said it best. It was happy, sad.

398
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 4: You're so pleased to see him free. You're so happy

399
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 4: to see him on the outside, but you're also struck

400
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 4: by the enormity of the loss and the suffering and

401
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 4: the years that he can never get back. So it's

402
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 4: it's bittersweet. But it was a really, really a wonderful

403
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 4: day and it was great to drive Bobby away from

404
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 4: that prison. While he was eating his barbecue chips, drinking

405
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 4: his son what was it coke?

406
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and having served out his sentence for his prior conviction,

407
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 2: David was now also free from his wrongful conviction.

408
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 5: When I was walking on I didn't know that the

409
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 5: Innocent Project was coming to pick me up.

410
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 6: And I walk outside there was an Innocent Project, Rachel

411
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 6: and Zoe and mister Keuneham. There was like three carfuls

412
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 6: of people out there.

413
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: Take your time.

414
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 6: I was emotional. My mom just pushed it over the

415
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 6: edge when she had two sons locked up for a

416
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 6: GRAM and they commit and she was here to see this.

417
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 6: You never got a takeod by her.

418
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 3: Not my mom said before she passed away. My sister

419
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 3: brought her up to visit me and she says that

420
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 3: I hope you out some day, asked Mom, today I

421
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 3: get out of Printon, You'll be Dan for joy in

422
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 3: heaven and I lost my niece to my sister's daughter

423
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 3: horrible drunk driver car act. Horrible car accident, and I

424
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 3: was in there for my niece and every birthday's and

425
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 3: visit them like I used to.

426
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 2: Now, I want to talk to you guys about that,

427
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: and I'll ask you Jim first. You know, we've been

428
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 2: asking people a lot about the concept of accountability. I

429
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 2: know that you know there's a monetary aspect, but that

430
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 2: doesn't buy back time. I think of twenty five years

431
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: for each of you for something that you were innocent

432
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: of the entire time. But it also seems in this

433
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: case that that was known even before they set foot

434
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 2: and trial. When you look at a case like this, Jim,

435
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 2: where do you point blame?

436
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 4: That's a really difficult question. I guess I would have

437
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 4: to start by saying where I don't point blame and

438
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 4: where I want to give credit. There's the current Brown

439
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 4: County District Attorney. They weren't involved in the original prosecution.

440
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 4: This guy was not involved in David's previous petition for

441
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 4: post conviction relief. So when we came forward and we

442
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 4: said we wanted to do more testing in this case,

443
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 4: the current Brown County District Attorney said, go ahead, test

444
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 4: whatever you want. I won't oppose it. I'll stipulate to it.

445
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 4: And he could have opposed us, he could have stood.

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00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: In our way.

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00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 4: We would have had to bring a motion in court,

448
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 4: and we very well may have lost that motion. The

449
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 4: testing never would have happened, and Bobby and David would

450
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 4: still be in prison. But he didn't. He said go

451
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 4: ahead and test. I won't stand in your way. And

452
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 4: then finally when we came to them with the results

453
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 4: of the testing and the genealogy and the lead of

454
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 4: William Hendrix, they agreed with us that this was significant,

455
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,959
Speaker 4: that the case needed to be reopened and reinvestigated. And

456
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 4: then once we confirmed it didn't happen as quickly as

457
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 4: I had hoped that. Once we confirmed that William Hendrix

458
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 4: was the one, they agreed with us and stipulated to

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00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 4: vacating the conviction and freeing. These men want to give

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00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 4: credit where credit is due. I appreciate their approach to

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00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 4: the case.

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00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 2: It is inspiring to know that there are people in

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00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: positions of power who are ready and willing to acknowledge

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00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: that mistakes happen, even though they didn't necessarily happen on

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00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: their watch.

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00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 4: We need more of that. We need more of that

467
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 4: among prosecutors. We need them to take their role as

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00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 4: a minister of justice seriously and not simply as being

469
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 4: someone whose job is to convict convict. We need prosecutors

470
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 4: who are willing to look at the evidence and do

471
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 4: the right thing in every case. And we need an

472
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 4: informed public who makes electoral decisions for these offices based

473
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 4: on that, not simply based on who can say their

474
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: toughest on crime.

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00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: Amen to that. And so now I'd like to ask

476
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: for what you want people to take away from this story.

477
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 4: When I think about what happened to them when they

478
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 4: were initially convicted and then again when they sought post

479
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 4: conviction relief over fifteen years ago, I just think about

480
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 4: the fact that the state is asking everyone to believe

481
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 4: something that's really unbelievable. That you've got a crime scene

482
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 4: with the victim whose clothing is partially removed, where you've

483
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 4: got blood and semen from a man on that crime scene,

484
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 4: and you've got debris underneath the victim's underclothing.

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00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: You know what happened.

486
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 4: If we had known who that person was at the time,

487
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 4: that person would have been prosecuted, but we didn't know

488
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 4: who that person was, and somebody had to pay. And

489
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 4: that is the kind of thinking that we need to

490
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 4: get away from the idea that it's more important that

491
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 4: someone pay than that we get the right person. We

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00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 4: talk a lot in this country about the expression it's

493
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 4: better to let ten guilty people go free than to

494
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 4: put one innocent person in prison. But if you actually

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00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 4: do a poll in the United States, many people really

496
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 4: don't believe that to be true. In fact, most people

497
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 4: think it's just as bad to allow a guilty person

498
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 4: go free as it is to allow an innocent person

499
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 4: to be imprisoned, and a substantial number of people even

500
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 4: think that it's worse to let a guilty person go

501
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 4: free than it is to imprison an innocent person. Forgetting,

502
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 4: of course, that every time an innocent person is imprisoned,

503
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 4: that means, by definition, the guilty person has gone free.

504
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 4: It's important for everyone in the system, including the jurors,

505
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 4: to take their oaths and their duties very seriously. We

506
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 4: have these burdens for a reason is to protect people's rights.

507
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 3: I want people to believe that I'm not guilty, that

508
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 3: I'm really innocent of this I want people who believe

509
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 3: that they see the truth. Because wrongful convictions are terrible

510
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 3: Wisconsin and the justice system is terrible. I want people

511
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: who believe that I'm a good person.

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00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

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00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: to this and all Lava for Good podcasts one week

514
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: early and add free by subscribing to Lava for Good

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00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 2: Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'd like to thank our production team,

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00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as executive producers

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00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: Jason Vlahm, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clyburn. The

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00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR

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00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across

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00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at

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00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at

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00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: Lauren Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava

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00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.

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00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

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00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed

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00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: by the individuals featured in this show are their own

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00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: and do not necessarily reflect those of lava for good,