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Speaker 1: On July twenty first, nineteen ninety seven, a young man

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Speaker 1: was fatally shot while being driven past a building in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 1: New York. The driver, Carlos Bethune, told police that he

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Speaker 1: hadn't seen the shooter, but later named a resident of

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Speaker 1: that building, Jermaine Archer, who ran for his life from Bethune,

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Speaker 1: the victim's family, and the police. In retaliation, Jermaine's brother

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Speaker 1: was shot but survived. Soon tensions cooled when the family

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Speaker 1: figured out who the actual shooter was, but the police

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Speaker 1: stayed stuck on Jermaine and Carlos Bethune went along for

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Speaker 1: the ride. This is Wrongful Conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for

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Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing

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Speaker 1: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to Wrong for Conviction. Today's episode, well, let's just say

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Speaker 1: it features a man named Jermaine Archer, who I consider

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Speaker 1: a friend and a personal hero. And I'm so glad

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Speaker 1: to welcome you to the show, Jermaine, because this is

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Speaker 1: the story people need to hear. So first of all,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you're here.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for coming, thanks for inviting me to the show.

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Speaker 3: And I want to shout out my attorney, Peter Cross,

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Speaker 3: who's here with me, who's been with me through the fire.

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Speaker 3: When a bunch of other people walked away, attorneys included Peter,

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Speaker 3: didn't go nowhere.

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Speaker 2: Peter stood here, worked with me pro bono.

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Speaker 3: He believed in me, he believed in my innocence, and

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Speaker 3: eventually he helped me.

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Speaker 1: Prove it well. I was about to introduce Peter, but

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Speaker 1: you did a much better job than I could have

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Speaker 1: possibly done. So thank you for that, and Peter, thanks

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Speaker 1: for coming on the show. My pleasure. Let's go back

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Speaker 1: in time, Jermaine. You grew up in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 3: Brooklyn, New York, Massy Projects and then eventually Flatbush back it.

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Speaker 3: My childhood was great. I mean, we weren't rich by

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Speaker 3: any means. I'm the seventh of eleven or twelve, whoever

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Speaker 3: you want to believe. My father says eleven, my mother

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Speaker 3: says twelve. She said my father went and had another child.

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Speaker 3: We don't know about what. We were kind of separated

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Speaker 3: through the years. I grew up with five boys and

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Speaker 3: one girl living in my apartment, and I just always

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Speaker 3: felt protected, like I'm the seventh, the baby, and the

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Speaker 3: family on that side, and my mother went to work

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Speaker 3: at five in the morning. She didn't come home till

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Speaker 3: sometime nine o'clock at night. But we had everything we needed.

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Speaker 3: I might have didn't have the latest, most expensive sneakers

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Speaker 3: that I might have wanted, but it was nothing but love.

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Speaker 2: Growing up in.

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn and you were growing up in the nineties, which

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Speaker 1: was a crazy time, rife with street crime and police

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Speaker 1: violence and corruption and those go together sometimes unfortunately, and

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Speaker 1: of course the news media, any crime that happened, they

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Speaker 1: would amplify it as alt saying if it bleeds, it leads,

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Speaker 1: and then that would of course drive the pressure on

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Speaker 1: the police to make arrests and for ultimately people to

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Speaker 1: get convicted.

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Speaker 3: I would say because of the Giuliani Pataki tough on

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Speaker 3: crime era, I know personally fifteen people that were wrongly convicted.

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Speaker 3: It was five district attorneys across New York City that

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Speaker 3: were just prosecuting people. It didn't matter if they got

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Speaker 3: the right person for the crime. They were holding witnesses hostage,

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Speaker 3: they were holding witnesses in hotels, they were paying witnesses

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Speaker 3: and lying about it. They were using drug addicts to testify.

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Speaker 1: And when you lock up the wrong person, the right

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Speaker 1: person remains free. And everybody's endangerous.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't about making the streets safer. It was

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Speaker 3: about incarcerating as many black and brown bodies as they

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Speaker 3: could from poor communities.

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Speaker 2: Who was going to really complain?

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Speaker 1: And when this crime took place, it was the time.

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Speaker 1: For people who can remember this far back, it was

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Speaker 1: the same summer as Abner Louima.

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Speaker 3: First off, Abner Louima was violated by the same precinct

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Speaker 3: that investigating eventually charged me, in this case seven to

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Speaker 3: zero Precinct.

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Speaker 1: So for those who don't recall, Admir Luimo was scooped

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Speaker 1: up from the scene of a fight and was brought

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Speaker 1: back to the seventieth precinct where he was not only

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Speaker 1: brutally beaten by the police, but was also and brace yourself,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry I have to even say this, but he

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Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted with a broomstick. Thankfully, those officers were

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Speaker 1: charged and convicted. But this was the precinct where just

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Speaker 1: a few weeks before, in late July, there was some

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Speaker 1: friction between two groups Jermaine's family and friends at twenty

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Speaker 1: Westminster Road, and the victim Patrick Niles. His people, specifically

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Speaker 1: his older brother Ronaldo, and a guy named Carlos Bethune.

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Speaker 3: Carlos Betun was Ronaldo's right hand man, that was his friend.

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Speaker 3: I only knew him as the short, chubby guy that's

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Speaker 3: always with Ronaldo. I didn't even know his name until

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Speaker 3: this case actually happened. I didn't know Ronaldo's name. We

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Speaker 3: called him Crocodile because he got a long face. Crocodile

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Speaker 3: is crocodile a Spanish, but cocodrillo, and that's his nickname.

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Speaker 3: We didn't give him that name. He was known for violence.

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Speaker 3: He was a street guy. I can't really say that

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Speaker 3: I've witnessed him do certain things that other people said

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Speaker 3: he did, but I know he was one not to

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Speaker 3: be played with.

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Speaker 2: I know that.

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Speaker 3: Looking back, I understand that they was just troubled young

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Speaker 3: people like me, and that was involved in some things

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Speaker 3: we probably had no business being involved in.

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Speaker 1: And that sets the stage for July twentieth, nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 3: July twentieth, nineteen ninety seven, I was walking down the

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Speaker 3: street with a friend of mine. We wanted to go

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Speaker 3: to the store, and there was a girl sitting on

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Speaker 3: a bike and she was talking to a couple of

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Speaker 3: people from the neighborhood that we knew.

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Speaker 2: I asked her if I could borrow her bike. She

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Speaker 2: looked hesitant.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I'm gonna give you back your bike,

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Speaker 3: and my friend offered her some money to hold. It

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Speaker 3: was like a lot of money. So the guy she

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Speaker 3: was talking to, Ronaldo he felt, showed up and he

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Speaker 3: snatched the bike and said, YO, don't ever disrespect me again.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, we cool, Like where's this coming from.

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Speaker 3: He had just given me a ride the other day

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Speaker 3: to my sister's house, so we grew up together.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know.

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Speaker 3: I found out later that his father died that night.

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Speaker 3: That's where the attitude was coming from. But I didn't know.

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Speaker 3: I was like, no problem, they ain't even worth it.

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Speaker 3: I went back in front of my building. I told

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Speaker 3: my brother Michael what happened, because they were the same age,

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Speaker 3: and he said, just stay in front of the building.

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Speaker 2: I'll talk to him in the morning. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: maybe he going through something.

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Speaker 3: A little while later, as I'm walking to the store,

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Speaker 3: he pulled up in the car and pulled out a gun.

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Speaker 3: The people that I was with ran except one. He said, Yo,

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Speaker 3: I know you went and got a gun. Don't make

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Speaker 3: me leave you. One brother's less, all this craziness, and

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Speaker 3: then he leaves again. I go back and tell my

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Speaker 3: brother again, and my brother tells me stay upstairs for

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Speaker 3: the night. The next day, I'm in the house the

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Speaker 3: entire day with my children's mother. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: go outside. I want my brother to be able to

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Speaker 3: talk to him. I don't know what he's going to do.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if he's going to send anybody. He's notorious.

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Speaker 3: People knows who he is.

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Speaker 1: So the kids who hung out in front of Jermaine's

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Speaker 1: building twenty Westminster Road, they were aware of the danger

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Speaker 1: from Ronaldo and his crew while doing what they normally did.

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Speaker 1: And the police, well, they were doing what they normally did.

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Speaker 2: Normally.

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Speaker 3: We were on the corner shooting dice, smoking weed, drinking beer,

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Speaker 3: talking to girls. It was literally like that was the hangout.

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Speaker 3: But that night I stood in front of the building.

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Speaker 3: This is those days of tough on crime. The police came.

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Speaker 3: They did this almost every night. They would search us

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Speaker 3: literally two or three times a night.

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Speaker 2: So they came.

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Speaker 3: They put us on a wall, even in front of

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Speaker 3: my building. They patted everybody down that was there, and

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Speaker 3: they drove off. When they drove off, I got up.

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Speaker 3: I went to the alley to piss. While I was

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Speaker 3: in the alley, I was talking to three girls in

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Speaker 3: the window and I'm joking with them like this is

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Speaker 3: kind of heavy because y'all hold this for me, wash

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Speaker 3: your hands. I'm having fun with these girls the things

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Speaker 3: we do in the neighborhood. And while we're all talking,

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Speaker 3: one of them stuck ahead back in the window. The

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Speaker 3: other two stood While we were talking. We heard three shots,

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Speaker 3: so they literally had eyes on me when the shots

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Speaker 3: were fired. After that, I'm trying to get my stuff

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Speaker 3: together because i don't know what's going on. I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: it's Ronaldo. He's back, he's shooting at us.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't Ronaldo. Out in front of the building,

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Speaker 1: Carlos Bethune had driven by and someone shot into the car,

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Speaker 1: killing Ronaldo's brother Patrick Niles.

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Speaker 2: I go up to my roof.

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Speaker 3: My best friend comes up to the roof and I'm

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Speaker 3: like why, and he's like, what are you asking me for?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, and so I'm thinking it's going to

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Speaker 3: be a problem. Because they notorious. They got guns. They gangsters.

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Speaker 3: Why would this guy do this in front of Like,

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Speaker 3: I'm upset at the time, I don't know what's going

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Speaker 3: on now.

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Speaker 1: The police came to investigate, and luckily a neighbor kid

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Speaker 1: named Kester Jones saw the whole thing and was interviewed. However,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't seem to have been memorialized.

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Speaker 4: Kester thinks he was interviewed. I don't know if it

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Speaker 4: was in fact by the police. He had been playing

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Speaker 4: basketball at the park down the street. His apartment was

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Speaker 4: all the way at the end of the block, and

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Speaker 4: so as he was walking home, he happened to be

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Speaker 4: there when this happened. He saw the guys outside Germaine's

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Speaker 4: apartment building, and he didn't want to walk by there

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Speaker 4: because you know, he didn't want to get haressed. So

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Speaker 4: he was trying to get over to the other side

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Speaker 4: of the street, and that's how he was right there

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Speaker 4: behind it when he saw exactly what happened.

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Speaker 3: He said he saw a car stop near the first building,

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Speaker 3: which was ten, then he saw another cost by twenty,

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Speaker 3: which was my building, and then he saw someone run

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Speaker 3: into the street and shoot at the car from behind

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Speaker 3: it As he was driving down the block. It went

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Speaker 3: through the back passenger window. It struck a victim behind

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Speaker 3: his right ear and went from right to left. According

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Speaker 3: to the medical examiner, So Carlos Bethune went to the

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Speaker 3: precinct that night and he said, I don't know what happened.

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Speaker 3: I was driving down the block. I heard three shots.

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Speaker 3: I took off. My friend got shot in the head.

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Speaker 3: That must have been true. Three days later he went

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Speaker 3: back to the precinct and said, I lied to y'all.

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Speaker 2: Jermaine did it? Bang did it? They called me Bang,

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Speaker 2: Bang did it? Now?

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Speaker 3: The story he gave couldn't have been true because one,

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Speaker 3: he's the driver of the car, So the only way

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Speaker 3: you could see somebody shoot your friend in the back

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Speaker 3: of the head is if you're driving looking backwards. But

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Speaker 3: he said Bang came and jumped in front of the car,

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Speaker 3: The car stopped, ran to the side, and shot the

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Speaker 3: passenger in the head. The medical examine a proof that

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Speaker 3: couldn't have happened that way because there was no stippling,

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Speaker 3: There was no gunpowder residue on the person's head. The

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Speaker 3: crime scene invests to get it said it couldn't happen

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Speaker 3: that way because the bullet didn't come through the passenger window.

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Speaker 3: It came through the back window, so none of the

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Speaker 3: stuff he said lined up, But he said I did it.

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Speaker 3: We found out later Ronaldo convinced Carlos to implicate me

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Speaker 3: so that they could track me down.

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Speaker 1: So Ronaldo believed Jermaine had done it, even though the

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Speaker 1: folks at twenty Westminster knew otherwise. And now, as the result,

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Speaker 1: Jermaine was in real danger.

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Speaker 3: So I'm not trying to get shot for something I

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Speaker 3: didn't do, and I'm not trying to get arrested for

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Speaker 3: something I didn't do. So I ended up leaving. I

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Speaker 3: went through New Jersey, I came back up state, and

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Speaker 3: I went to Pennsylvania, and eventually I just dropped off

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Speaker 3: my children's mother and my children, and then I just

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Speaker 3: was like living on the road. I was just I

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Speaker 3: had a car. I was just driving back and forth

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Speaker 3: from state to state. I wasn't staying in any place

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Speaker 3: too long because I figured, over time the police realized

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Speaker 3: I didn't do it, and I'll be able to figure

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Speaker 3: out what comes next.

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Speaker 1: So while Jermaine was out of town, Rinaldo tried something

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Speaker 1: else to try to smoke him out.

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Speaker 3: About three weeks after that, I'm not sure the exact date,

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Speaker 3: but it was August nineteen ninety seven. My brother was

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Speaker 3: at his house in Queen's and Ronaldo pulled up. We're

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00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 3: still unsure how he found that way he lived or

242
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,600
Speaker 3: Ronaldo pulled up on him. He was with his daughter

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Speaker 3: and they just shot him up.

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Speaker 1: And Carlos Bethune was allegedly the driver. Now, miraculously Jermaine's

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Speaker 1: brother lived, and now this attempted murder with a surviving

246
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Speaker 1: witness was looming over them. Meanwhile, about seven months rolled

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Speaker 1: by before the police caught up with Jermaine and Allentown, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: where he was arrested and sent back to New York.

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Speaker 3: When they arrested me, they say, you're gonna tell us

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Speaker 3: who did it, or we're gonna lock you up. And

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Speaker 3: I was like, I didn't see the crime. I'm being honest,

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Speaker 3: like I said, I was in the alley, so that

253
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Speaker 3: was part of the problem.

254
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Speaker 2: I didn't see the crime. Well who did it?

255
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Speaker 3: And I said, you can't put this on me. I

256
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,280
Speaker 3: remember telling office to that and he said, I'm gonna

257
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Speaker 3: tell you what's gonna happen.

258
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Speaker 2: I'm gonna lock you up.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna go in the lineup and you're gonna get

260
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Speaker 3: picked out and then you'll take your chances at trial,

261
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Speaker 3: or you could just tell me who did it right now.

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Speaker 3: And I remember saying something slick like, did jacket don't fit?

263
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Speaker 3: Everyone knew me I was a petty drug dealer at

264
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Speaker 3: the time, the jacket don't fit, And as if we

265
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Speaker 3: had both seen the same movie, he spit right back,

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Speaker 3: I know a good tale. So when Carlos implicated me

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Speaker 3: and the police arrested me, he came to the lineup

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Speaker 3: and said, I'm not really sure, and then he made

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Speaker 3: a phone call, and somebody on the phone call, according

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Speaker 3: to the detective, was trying to convince him not to

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Speaker 3: identify me. My belief was that they wanted to get

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Speaker 3: me back in New York and then let me walk

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Speaker 3: out of the precint where they knew I would be unarmed.

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Speaker 3: Thedn't gonna be down That's what I'm thinking, Like, you're

275
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Speaker 3: coming out the precinct, you definitely can't defend yourself, and

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Speaker 3: they're gonna be down there.

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Speaker 2: But they didn't realize I had a probation violation.

278
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Speaker 1: Which sent him to Rikers Island while the police arrested

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Speaker 1: his child's mother's brother.

280
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Speaker 3: They got him for some drugs and they said, we

281
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Speaker 3: don't even want you. You just got to save what

282
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,480
Speaker 3: we need you to save for bang And he said

283
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Speaker 3: that he didn't see who shot, but that I went

284
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Speaker 3: to his house and he had a bunch of guns

285
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Speaker 3: in his house, and I put a bunch of guns

286
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Speaker 3: in a book bag and came downstairs and started handing

287
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Speaker 3: him out, which was a cold bloody line.

288
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Speaker 1: And so he was indicted, but Carlos Bethune had still

289
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,280
Speaker 1: not identified him.

290
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Speaker 3: When they didn't identify me in a lineup, I was thinking,

291
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Speaker 3: either they're gonna try to work this out or they're

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Speaker 3: going to try the exact street revenge. Rinaldo ended up

293
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Speaker 3: tracking down my brother said I thought he shot my

294
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Speaker 3: brother my bag, so I knew by then they knew

295
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Speaker 3: I didn't do it. So I wasn't really concerned we're

296
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Speaker 3: going to trial because I didn't think they was going

297
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,400
Speaker 3: to testify against me. And I found out later that

298
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Speaker 3: the district attorney and the police Prussian Carlos. It would

299
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Speaker 3: reach a certain point where he was also hiding from Ronaldo.

300
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Speaker 3: That's in those transcripts too. He was hiding from Ronaldo

301
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Speaker 3: because he said According to him, he thought Ronaldo wanted

302
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Speaker 3: to kill him.

303
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Speaker 1: It appears Carlos was willing to cooperate, which conflicted with

304
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Speaker 1: Ronaldo's plan to avoid his own charges see King Michael's

305
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 1: forgiven for the attempted murder by not helping the prosecutors

306
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 1: close his brother's murder case with Jermaine, who it appears

307
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,040
Speaker 1: they knew was the wrong person, and Jermaine's attorney, Jesse Young,

308
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,079
Speaker 1: was trying to expose whether or not Carlos had accepted

309
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Speaker 1: a deal.

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Speaker 3: There was back and forth whether they let Carlos off

311
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Speaker 3: the hook in my brother's shooting. He brought his paperwork

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Speaker 3: to the court and the judge went through his file

313
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,000
Speaker 3: and they said they couldn't find anything. We knew there

314
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 3: was a deal made. We just wasn't sure where the

315
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 3: deal was made. We thought it was in Queen's but

316
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Speaker 3: it wasn't. It was actually in King's County.

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Speaker 1: Jermaine's attorney tried to admit Michael Archer as a witness

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Speaker 1: as to why Carlos might have had a reason to testify.

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Speaker 3: They wouldn't let my brother testify because he was not

320
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Speaker 3: a witness to the crime that I was being charged with.

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Speaker 3: What happened on July twenty first, nineteen ninety seven, in

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Speaker 3: front of twenty Westminster Road. If you have nothing to

323
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Speaker 3: say about that, we're not going to let you come

324
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,960
Speaker 3: in and testify. So they took me to trial. Carlos

325
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:54,800
Speaker 3: said what he said.

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Speaker 1: Carlos testified about the confrontations and the lead up to

327
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 1: the shooting, and then his alleged EXPERI parents that night,

328
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Speaker 1: stopping his car near twenty Westminster Road to let a

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00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,080
Speaker 1: disabled person across the street. Well, such an upstanding guy, right,

330
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Speaker 1: and then Jermaine allegedly emerged from the minivan, firing into

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Speaker 1: the vehicle. Carlos was cross examined with how that differed

332
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Speaker 1: from his original statement and how he'd said that he

333
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 1: hadn't seen the shooter.

334
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,640
Speaker 3: I had no concerns whatsoever, Like, there's no way they're

335
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,480
Speaker 3: going to convict me on it because I didn't do it,

336
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,720
Speaker 3: and also because he don't flip the story a couple

337
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,440
Speaker 3: of times, and because there's people that saw it that's

338
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 3: willing to come and testify. For my children's mother, her sister,

339
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 3: and my best friend all came and said it wasn't Bang.

340
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 3: Bang was in an alley when it shots fired my

341
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,240
Speaker 3: children's mother was on the street, so she's seen it.

342
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,000
Speaker 3: They all testified that it wasn't me.

343
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Speaker 1: And they even named the person who they'd all seen shoot,

344
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Speaker 1: Patrick Niles. However, being Jermaine's friends and family appears to

345
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,840
Speaker 1: have hurt their credibility. But what about the other guy,

346
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 1: Kester Jones.

347
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 3: Kester wanted to testify, He was in court To this day,

348
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,840
Speaker 3: I have no idea why he didn't testify. Kester even

349
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 3: recently he brought it up. He said he went to

350
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,080
Speaker 3: court ready to testify, and someone came and told him,

351
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Speaker 3: we don't need you.

352
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 1: But they needed everything they had because Carlos Pethune and

353
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,440
Speaker 1: the prosecutor strategy appear to have been enough for the jury.

354
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 3: It's off the record, but one of the jurors reached

355
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,280
Speaker 3: out to my brother after the trial, not sure how

356
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 3: she found them, and said it couldn't get over the

357
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 3: nickname Bang.

358
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Speaker 4: Yeah, not helpful.

359
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 2: Wasn't helpful.

360
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 3: But my mother named me after Bang Bang Morales. It

361
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,360
Speaker 3: was a boxer in the seventies, so she nicknamed me

362
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,720
Speaker 3: after him. But the prosecutor, if you go through the transcripts,

363
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 3: she doesn't call me archer, she doesn't call me Jermaine

364
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 3: and Bang did this, and Bang did that, and she

365
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 3: was emphasizing it. Most people cursed the lawyer out when

366
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,360
Speaker 3: they get convicted, and I remember just telling him, thank

367
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,400
Speaker 3: you man, you tried. And I remember my mother telling

368
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,000
Speaker 3: me that she was hysterical and crying and everything. But

369
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 3: to judge Michael Duval actually saw her in the hallway

370
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 3: and said, your son should have took a bench trial. Basically,

371
00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:58,640
Speaker 3: if I had took a bench trial, I would have

372
00:16:58,640 --> 00:16:59,400
Speaker 3: beat the case of trial.

373
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,320
Speaker 1: Following the verdict, Jermaine's attorney filed the motion to vacate

374
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 1: and set aside the verdict, questioning whether the preclusion of

375
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,920
Speaker 1: Michael Archer had denied jermaine affair trial. Additionally, Jermaine's brothers

376
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,200
Speaker 1: had secretly recorded alleged confessions from the actual shooter. They

377
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,040
Speaker 1: had a hearing, but the recordings were difficult to hear. Meanwhile,

378
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 1: Ronaldo was trying to avoid his own trial.

379
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,720
Speaker 3: After I got convicted. He sent word through a family friend.

380
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,720
Speaker 3: He said, let's do what we can to make it right.

381
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,719
Speaker 3: If you don't press charges against me, I'll make this

382
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,200
Speaker 3: guy recant the story against your brother. And then Rinaldo

383
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 3: convinced Carlos to recant his testimony, which was the second

384
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 3: time he changed the story. He turned around and said,

385
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,359
Speaker 3: I'm not sure it was him. They saying it was

386
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 3: this guy I heard they look alike. I don't want

387
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,480
Speaker 3: to send an acent man in prison. So then he

388
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,680
Speaker 3: changed the story and then they overturned the conviction.

389
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 1: At this point, Jermaine was released pending a new trial.

390
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,160
Speaker 3: And then I don't know if specifics of that deal,

391
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,040
Speaker 3: I'm not going to give here say. I just know

392
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,439
Speaker 3: that deal fell apart at three four months after that,

393
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 3: they changed the story again. It was like, you know what,

394
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 3: on second thought, it wasn't. I heard the judge tell Peggy,

395
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 3: and this is Assistant District Attorney Peggy Hoffman, you're over

396
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,879
Speaker 3: trying this case. He's clearly not an angel, but it

397
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,360
Speaker 3: doesn't look like he did this. The judge told her

398
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 3: that it was in an off the record, you know, sidebar,

399
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,680
Speaker 3: but I heard her and she said, I'm just following

400
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 3: instructions from up top your eye. So basically Charles Hines

401
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,480
Speaker 3: or whoever he delegated, they were saying, we're gonna fight

402
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,399
Speaker 3: this case all the way through, and they put me

403
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 3: back in prison behind.

404
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:48,480
Speaker 5: Them after I got convicted.

405
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 2: You know, my children's mother, she had to move on.

406
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,679
Speaker 3: I don't have the best relationship with my three biological

407
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 3: children because they didn't bring them up to visit me.

408
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 2: She had to move on.

409
00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,760
Speaker 3: She got into another relationship, had another child, and.

410
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 2: She had to focus on that. So I suffered from that.

411
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,199
Speaker 2: I watched my mother grow old in prison.

412
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,640
Speaker 3: My health suffered, my mother's health suffer because she knew

413
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 3: I didn't do it.

414
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 2: Not to say it would have been okay if she

415
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,800
Speaker 2: knew I did it, but it hurt on more.

416
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,919
Speaker 3: That her baby was in prison for something he didn't do,

417
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 3: and she couldn't do anything to help me out, to

418
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 3: get me out.

419
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 2: So this case just destroyed so many people's lives, not

420
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:20,920
Speaker 2: just mine.

421
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 3: I realized my time was the same, whether I was

422
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 3: in prison or not, be doesn't matter when I hit

423
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 3: that grave, that tombstone, that dash, all of this time count.

424
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 3: These twenty two years are gonna go by, and I'm

425
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 3: gonna have a twenty two year gap in my resume.

426
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,920
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be twenty two years older, so I can't

427
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 3: do the construction work and all the stuff that I

428
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 3: may have been inclined to do. I'm gonna be competing

429
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 3: with people that never been in prison in the job

430
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 3: market and don't have felonies, and a lot younger and

431
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,840
Speaker 3: probably better looking at me. So I knew I had

432
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 3: to do the best I could. While I was in there.

433
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,159
Speaker 3: I got my parer legal certification, and I earned a

434
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,399
Speaker 3: master's degree. I was asleep bachelor's and associates. I joined

435
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 3: Carnegie Hall and learned how to play the piano. I

436
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 3: taught classes on ag V and AIDS, aggression replacement training,

437
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,119
Speaker 3: on alternatives to violence, on parenting, on healthy relationships. I

438
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 3: would have taken classes on marbles if they offered it.

439
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 3: It didn't matter. Whatever was there that was therapeutic, educational, academic.

440
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,399
Speaker 3: I was a part of it, which made my parole

441
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,160
Speaker 3: packet over four hundred pages. But I felt like, I'm

442
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,120
Speaker 3: going to get all of these tools in my tool

443
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 3: belt and when I go home, I'll figure out what

444
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 3: I can apply.

445
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,120
Speaker 2: But I didn't turn down anything.

446
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean not to mention reading, writing, and speaking Spanish,

447
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,600
Speaker 1: French and German, and creating a Chinese Mandarin language course,

448
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 1: the only one ever to be taught inside of New

449
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: York State Prison. And I think the one thing we must.

450
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 2: Talk about is voices from within.

451
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 1: Voices from within, That's what we got to talk about.

452
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I was going there next. So it was

453
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 3: me and ten other guys and some of us wrongly convicted,

454
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 3: some of us not. It doesn't matter. Some of us

455
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 3: were out there doing some things. We weren't living the

456
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 3: best life. How can we pay our debt to society?

457
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,479
Speaker 3: How can we make a better community, How can we

458
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 3: come together and just be assets even from the inside.

459
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 3: It started out as advocacy lobbying. We were bringing senators

460
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,679
Speaker 3: and legislators and judges and community activists into the prison,

461
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,360
Speaker 3: hosting town halls, and eventually we specialized in preventing youth

462
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,880
Speaker 3: gun violence because we realized who better to deter them

463
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 3: from that behavior than people that was either a victim

464
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 3: of it that were perpetrators of it. So we created workshops,

465
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 3: We created a curriculum choices, choose a healthier options and

466
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 3: confront in every situation. And we were doing exercises play

467
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 3: back theater where a young person to come in and

468
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 3: explain how they had got in trouble and then they

469
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 3: get to pick people to re enact that and they

470
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,640
Speaker 3: would see it play out in front of their eyes

471
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 3: and then they could see where they could have made

472
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 3: a different decision instead of us just saying that was wrong,

473
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 3: Maybe you should have did this.

474
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 2: And there were other exercises that we did.

475
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 3: We were able to get people that's incarcerated to have

476
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 3: more time with their non incarcerated youth in their life.

477
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 3: I believe that was one of the most impactful programs

478
00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 3: that I was a part of. I'm glad to have

479
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,919
Speaker 3: created it, and I feel like we also created a

480
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 3: fraternity through that program all of us are still close

481
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 3: to this day. I think Voices from Within has the

482
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 3: power to really change young people's trajectory because it's not

483
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 3: those typical listen I did thirty years.

484
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 2: Let me tell you what it is. It's caring. They

485
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:19,919
Speaker 2: don't care how much you know.

486
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 3: They want to know how much you care, and we

487
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: actually showed them that we care about you.

488
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: Jermaine kept himself very busy in prison, including with a

489
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: program that was very important to other former guests on

490
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction podcast. It was actually recently featured Get This

491
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: in the OSCAR nominated film Sing Sing, And of course

492
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 1: I'm talking about a theater program called Rehabilitation through the

493
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 1: Arts or RTA.

494
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 3: I have to say one, I'm the executive director now,

495
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 3: but two, rehabilitation due to OZ gave me a childhood

496
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 3: that I never had really as a teenager, I felt

497
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 3: like I was grown when I got to rehabilitation, to

498
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: to Oars, I was able to do goofy things.

499
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: Again. I was too cool to do that in high school.

500
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not doing that, I'm not doing foolishness.

501
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,479
Speaker 3: But we rolled around the floor, we danced, We created

502
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,880
Speaker 3: safe spaces in there and the arts heals. So many

503
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 3: people went through rehabilitation and either ended up going to

504
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 3: college or they ended up creating their own programs, and

505
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 3: I have to put that front and center. We created

506
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,959
Speaker 3: voices from within. I was already a member of rehabilitation

507
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 3: through the arts. We took some of the exercises to

508
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 3: incorporate it, tweaked it to fit out purposes, But a

509
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 3: lot of that came from rehabilitation to the arts. Because

510
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 3: people on RTA knew my name. I wasn't a cell number,

511
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 3: I wasn't a department identification number.

512
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 2: I was Jermane Like. It actually restored humanity as so

513
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 2: many of us.

514
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: In addition is staying busy with programs. Jermaine also continued

515
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: to fight his case. He was denied on his direct appeal,

516
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,719
Speaker 1: and then in two thousand and three he found out

517
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 1: about a recording that Ronaldo had made of conversations with

518
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: Carlos Bethune, which may have been missed by his attorney

519
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: during his motion to vacate the verdict.

520
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 3: Somehow, my mother ran into a private investigator, Kevin Hinkson.

521
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 3: He turned over all the files in the case. I

522
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 3: didn't read realized that there was a recorded transcript between

523
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 3: Ronaldo and Carlos Bethune. When I took my time and

524
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 3: started going to the little library and reading it, I

525
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 3: realized Carlos admitted that they gave him three thousand dollars

526
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 3: to move. That's what he said on the tape. So

527
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 3: now I'm trying to figure out how can I prove this.

528
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 3: I don't know a lot about law, but I know

529
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 3: that they denied giving him anything. There has to be

530
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 3: something illegal or unconstitutional about that. So I filed the

531
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 3: freedom of information request. They didn't answer it. They didn't

532
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 3: answer it. Eventually I peeled it and then they answered

533
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 3: it with a certification that says they never gave him anything.

534
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 3: There's no records to prove it. They don't have anything

535
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 3: in the King's County District Attorney office that says they

536
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 3: ever had an agreement with him. So, okay, I know

537
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 3: what happened, I can't prove it.

538
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: And without the proof, he moved forward with post conviction motions,

539
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: citing ineffective assistance of trial council, saying that his attorney

540
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: should have called Kester, Jones and other alibi witnesses, and

541
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: again they were denied. Meanwhile, Ken Thompson was elected Brooklyn

542
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: District Attorney and before and died too young in twenty sixteen,

543
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: he formed a conviction review unit and at this point

544
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: Peter took on Jermaine's case.

545
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 4: So, fortunately for us, before Ken Thompson passed away, we

546
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 4: had gone pretty far down the road with the reinvestigation

547
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 4: of the case by the conviction review Unit. The assistant

548
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 4: district attorney was a really nice person, very ethical, right.

549
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 4: We signed a cooperation agreement where we agreed that we

550
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 4: would turn over to them whatever evidence we had, and

551
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 4: they agreed they would turn over all the evidence that

552
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 4: they had, and in that agreement they also said they

553
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 4: would give us witness statements at some point. But I

554
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 4: signed the agreement. My client signed the agreement. We never

555
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 4: got a sign copy of the agreement back from them,

556
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 4: but they were operating under the agreement.

557
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 3: And Peter asked her, is there anything that shows whatever

558
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 3: you may have given benefits to any of the witnesses.

559
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 3: We left it broad on purpose. She turned over three

560
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 3: sheets of paper that shows, according to that summer, he

561
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 3: was thirteen hundred dollars or something like that.

562
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 2: That was the start. I said, Peter, get that, and

563
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: I got it, and I got it.

564
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 3: I said, get anything else she got, so she went

565
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 3: back to look for more. They transferred off the case

566
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 3: as soon as they found out she gave us that documentation.

567
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 3: She was no longer working the case.

568
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 2: She was gone.

569
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 4: The good thing is we discovered that the only alleged

570
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 4: eyewitness had a cooperation agreement. He got housing and other

571
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 4: compensation from them his testimony, and they never disclosed that.

572
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: In addition to this Brady violation, both the ADA and

573
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: Carlos Bethune denied the deal existed a trial, and at

574
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: this point the Conviction Review Unit went unresponsive. Meanwhile, Jermaine

575
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 1: paroled out in twenty twenty from prison.

576
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 3: I married a beautiful woman and helped raise her children,

577
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 3: and their father was murdered, so I got to raise

578
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: two children from prison. I walked out of prison on

579
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 3: November thirty of twenty twenty. My wife, my children, my mother,

580
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: my brothers, like everyone was waiting on me.

581
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 2: There was a film crew waiting on me. I couldn't

582
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: believe I was out.

583
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 3: I wanted to jump in the car goal I wanted

584
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: to pinch myself make sure I wasn't sleeping. They asked

585
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 3: me what I wanted to do first. I said McDonald's

586
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: and they told me order whatever I want. And I

587
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 3: went up to the register and no one paid me

588
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 3: any mind. Of course, I'm not going to make a scene.

589
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 3: I was in prison twenty minutes ago. So I'll wait patiently,

590
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 3: and eventually one of the clerks. So one of the

591
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 3: cashiers told me, you got to order on the kiosks.

592
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: So I go to this little black looking thing. I've

593
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 3: been in prison twenty two years. I don't know how

594
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 3: to turn it on. I don't know about touchscreen or

595
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 3: any of that stuff. At the time, my family got

596
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 3: a good kick out of that. That was my introduction

597
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: to technology and how far I had been behind. I

598
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 3: didn't even know how to order food at McDonald's on

599
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 3: the Kiosk, and then they took me home, had a

600
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 3: nice little reception and family and friends and supporters, and

601
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 3: I got a job at the Legal Aid Society of

602
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 3: Westchester five weeks later, and Peter and I were discussing, like,

603
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 3: when do we file the motion, because we wanted to

604
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 3: wait till I came home. I wanted to be in

605
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: the courtroom. I didn't want them to deal with a

606
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 3: paper motion like all the other ones that had got denied.

607
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 3: I wanted them to have to deal with a human being.

608
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 3: We waited until September of twenty twenty one to file

609
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: the motion.

610
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: During these proceedings, they tried to compel the DA to

611
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: share whatever evidence they had that had dried up when

612
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 1: the Conviction Review Unit went unresponsive. After all, they had

613
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: this twenty fourteen cooperation agreement.

614
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 4: When we tried to get them to turn over the

615
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 4: witness statements, they said, oh, this is an unsigned agreement.

616
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 4: The court to my chagrin, and said, yeah, there's no

617
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 4: evidence there was in fact disagreement, and obviously there was

618
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 4: because we were cooperating under the agreement both sides.

619
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: Because they never provided us with a signed copy of

620
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 3: the agreement. Like the gamesmanship, I lost my cool a

621
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: couple of times, and they Peter calmed me down because

622
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: it was at a point where y'are.

623
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 2: Playing games with my life.

624
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: And the judge ordered them to turn over whatever else

625
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 3: there was in relation to this cooperation agreement. They turned

626
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 3: over eight more pages, so now we have eleven sheets

627
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 3: of paper that put the whole thing together. We ended

628
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: up getting granted a hearing, but official hearings started twenty

629
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 3: twenty three, blasted about six different court dates, and they

630
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: had given us mission to pursue actual innocence. Under actual innocence,

631
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 3: you can bring up things outside of the record.

632
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: When I got on.

633
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: A stand, the district attorney brought up things that I

634
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 3: was accused of fifth grade.

635
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: Like it was just chaos.

636
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 3: We weren't talking about the murder I was in prison for.

637
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: We were talking about things that I was never accused of,

638
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 3: never convicted, I've never charged with, and it was wearing

639
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 3: me out. I ended up in the hospital that night.

640
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 3: I ended up back on my medication, and after a

641
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: good long, lengthy discussion of our attorney, I went back

642
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: in the courtroom told the judge were withdrawing that we're

643
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: just going to deal with the Brady violation, which is

644
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: the fact that you paid someone and you lied about it.

645
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: They didn't want to talk about Brady violation. They had

646
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: four hundred pages and when the judge said you have

647
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: to talk about the Brady violation, she said no further questions, John,

648
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 3: because they couldn't talk about that. They were just going

649
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 3: to try to smear me in front of the court.

650
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 3: We know when it started. It started the day before trial.

651
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: And when my lawyer, Jesse Young, intimated that she may

652
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: have made a deal with him, she said, I just

653
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: want to point out for the record, no one from

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00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: my own if this has promised him anything. You had

655
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: just promised him at the date before, and we got

656
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 3: the paperwork to prove it. And as the hearing went

657
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 3: on it became obvious there was a deal made, you're

658
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 3: lying about it. You're still lying about it. And the

659
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 3: judged overturned the conviction based on the Brady violation.

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00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: And importantly a material violation that this would have caused

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00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: a different verdict at trial. So the conviction was overturned.

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00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: And we wish you all the luck in the world

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00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: in civil litigation as well as at your new job

664
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: working for rehabilitation through the arts, this time though from

665
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: outside the walls. And for anyone who wants to get

666
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: involved or donate, we're going to link to the places

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00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: you can go in the episode description and with that

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00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: we're going to go to closing arguments. First of all,

669
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: I thank each of you from the bottom of my heart,

670
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: and now I'm just going to kick back in my chair,

671
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: close my eyes, and leave my headphones on and listen

672
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: to anything else you guys feel has been left unset.

673
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: So Peter you go first, and then and the microphone

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00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: off to Jermaine and he'll take us off into the sunset.

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00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 4: I think we said it all.

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00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: I have a final thought.

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00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 3: Anybody that's a resident of Kings County, anybody with connection

678
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: to the King's County District Attorney office, reach out prove

679
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 3: me wrong.

680
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: I'm telling everybody I didn't do this crime.

681
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 3: Contact the District attorney and ask them where's the evidence

682
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: that I did this crime? Contact them and ask them

683
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: why are they still wasting tax payer money or something

684
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 3: that is obvious how to can do?

685
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: Reach out and.

686
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 3: Find out if you can find any evidence other than

687
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: the liar that I did this crime. Then hey, now

688
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: we're talking. But otherwise this is just political theater.

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00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: This is just a.

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00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: Lot of waste of taxpayer money, people getting paid to

691
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 3: uphold something that can't be held up. It's ridiculous. Yes,

692
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: he's supposed to be a progressive prosecutor. Find out why

693
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: he has me in the scope and why he won't

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00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: do the right thing.

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00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

696
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

697
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

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00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

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00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

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00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber.

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00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time

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00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

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00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

704
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

705
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

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00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.

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00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

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00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed

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00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: by the individuals featured in this show are their own

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00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good