WEBVTT - 7. The Caves 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.240 Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:11.000 not be suitable for all listeners. From iHeartRadio and Neon 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:15.000 thirty three, I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona, 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:18.560 the story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:21.400 his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:25.320 escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting, 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:33.360 Robert Fisher, and I need your help. What got me 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.640 about this case? Where the caves, people often pitch me 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:41.080 story ideas. Many are good, few are great. It's extremely 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.960 rare to find one that warrants two years of exhaustive 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.280 investigative labor. There has to be an X factor. A 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.360 man kills his family, blows up their house, and flees 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.000 into the wilderness. Go on, then escapes or dies in 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:58.920 a cave. Okay, sold? I picture a goony style skeleton 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:02.560 in an underground cave in the Arizona Mountains, A romantic, 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.200 morbid Western adventure. Of course, I want to search the 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:09.240 caves myself, but first I need to find them. And 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.160 let me tell you, the Arizona caving community is the 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.440 most secretive group I have ever encountered. More than anyone 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:17.560 I met while reporting on the Mafia or nine to 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.360 eleven or anything. Really, no one will tell me the 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.320 location of these caves, and they're not on a map, 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:25.760 but I know that they're very close to where police 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.640 found Mary Fisher's forerunner, Find the suv, find the caves. 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.440 For months, I examine every piece of data for clues, 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.920 every news report, every police record. I'm proud to say 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.480 in the end my best final guess is within a 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.720 quarter mile of the actual spot. But that's not good enough. 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.520 These aren't Hollywood caves. They're holes in the forest floor, 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.360 tiny dark doors into a subterranean world. They're easy to 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.960 miss in a vast wilderness. I need the exact spot. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.480 I need help. This is where I introduce you to 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.840 Paul Gemperline. Hey, y'all, Paul is a fan of Season 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.920 one Missing in Alaska. Of the thousands of people who 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.080 contacted me, he's been the most helpful when I choose 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:09.960 this case. I email Paul, hoping to loop him in 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:14.680 as an amateur researcher and satellite imagery analyst. Unsurprisingly, he 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:19.160 says yes. Surprisingly, he tells me he's also a recreational caver, 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:25.040 an intelligent tech savvy caving superfan a perfect fit the plan. 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.720 Our producer Chris and I will go into the woods 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.560 with Scott Steal Detective TJ Juran trying to find the 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.079 forerunner spot. Based on my research and TJ's memories, I 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.000 all video the woods and from his headquarters in Kentucky, 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.480 Paul will try to pinpoint exactly where the SUV was abandoned, 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:44.120 like literally the tree was parked against. So one pleasant 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.760 Phoenix morning, Chris and I meet up with TJ and 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.200 drive into the mountains. A twist here, A turn there. 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:52.480 Okay, so this is Young Road. 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.799 Turn right now, So. 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.280 Now we're going to start heading down to. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.200 We descend from the top of the muggy on rem 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.120 that jagged strip of cliffs extending across Arizona. Young Road 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:17.360 is paved for a bit. Then Bumpy, look at my 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:21.560 fucking back windshield. Oh fuck, So you used to have 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.639 a Bronco. Yeah. 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:28.280 I actually bought it in ninety four, early the year 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.600 he was arrested. And I go to the Ford dealship 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.360 and there's a white Bronco and I told the guy 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.240 I don't want to fucking white. So he shows me 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:40.960 all these different colors and I picked one that was 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.960 turquoise green, but it had, you know, the white top. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.000 It had the turquoise top, and it looked stupid. So 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:49.960 he goes, we're here, come around back. Let me show 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:53.040 you what else we got, and he takes me around back. 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.280 There's like fifteen white Broncos lined up. I'm like, I 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.400 told you, I don't want to know J Bronco. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.720 We're driving down this dirt road faster than OJ on 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.120 an LA Highway when. 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.160 Your destination is ahead on the left. 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:08.200 We're here where. 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:11.760 There should be a little road that we can turn 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:16.240 left onto it. No, holy shit, that's it. 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.039 That's it. Yeah, huh shit. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.240 We turn onto a raggedy side road and park. 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:24.480 It should be right generally in this direction. 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:25.479 Do you want to walk? 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:25.800 Yep. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:36.760 An eerie silence forms the soundtrack of the forest, interrupted 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:49.480 only by our footsteps in the wind. I pull out 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.440 my phone so I don't have cell service, but I 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.640 have GPS, so since the map is loaded, if we 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.080 start walking, we'll see okay, well we're here. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.280 And then we'll get right to that spot. 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:00.640 So we walk. 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.760 Watch where you walk, rattlesnakes and bears. 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.680 TJ and I head in different directions. Memory guides him. 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:10.159 GPS guides me. 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.920 Do you mind if I walk to finish the coordinate? 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.520 TJ yells at me to follow him. I can tell 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.919 he's kind of pissed. I ignore him and speed walk away. 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.120 We've made it so far. I'm not stopping until I 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:33.359 reach these coordinates. I think this is it. Our producer 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.240 Chris is stranded in the middle, unsure who to follow 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:43.960 me or TJ. TJ, the cave's over here. I found it. 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:45.360 TJ walks over. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.919 That's it. That's the cave, the cave. 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.359 That shall not be named. I know its name, but 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.120 I've been asked by cavers not to publicize it. They're 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.839 worried a name will help people find and vandalize it, 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:01.160 which means I get to rename it Apex Simple, the 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.520 name of my high school. Winding through the forest, I 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.119 spot a sinkhole maybe thirty feet wide thirty feet long. 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.000 A wash or seasonal creek bed flows right into it. Today, 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.599 there's no water, one hundred percent dry. The sink is 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.200 filled with branches and leaves and dirt. A fallen tree 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.720 crosses from one side to the other. A precarious bridge 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.120 peering down maybe twenty feet at the bottom between craggy rocks. 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.800 There it is the cave entrance. I know the Forerunner 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.400 was parked near here, within one hundred and fifty feet. 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.240 The problem is it all looks the same trees, bushes, rocks. 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.760 This will take more detective work, so I video it 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.320 than TJ. Chris and I walk back to the car. 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.760 Jesus Christ. Johnny made me fucking sweat. 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.280 TJ and I laugh about bolting in different directions, yelling at. 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.000 Each other, and then some poor sap caught in the middle. 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:59.120 Well, sorry, guys, but we made it. Back in Phoenix, 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.360 I send my video to Paul Gemperline. I often joke 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.119 that these stories turned me into John Nash or Carrie 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.279 Matheson or Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, a 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.360 crazed person surrounded by maps and charts and sticky notes. 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.920 Paul puts me to shame. I see his computer monitors. 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:19.440 They're playing a dozen videos simultaneously. He's comparing old footage 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.920 of the Forerunner recovery, every archived angle to video. I 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.680 took in the woods. Here a tree, there a bush, 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.680 Here's some rocks. They are a shadow. Can we narrow 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.520 it down? Can we find the exact spot where Robert 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:32.760 left Mary's forerunner. 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.160 I think I've figured it out, when a little bit 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:37.320 crazy in the process. 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:39.600 Yes, this genius man found it. 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.520 I've identified those double trees. I've identified this dead tree. 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.280 I've identified this leaning tree, this tree here, I've identified 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:48.080 the dead one there. 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:52.080 VOILA. Thank you, Paul. So at this point we found 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.960 the cave and the fore runner spot, which allows Paul 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.320 to search old satellite imagery for any photos taken between 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.560 April tenth and April twentieth, two thousand and one. Why 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.160 let's say we find an image from I don't know, 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.600 April sixteenth. Can we see the fore runner. If so, 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.320 we can narrow down how long it was in the woods. 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.680 Tighten the timeline. Paul starts to rule out or in 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.040 dozens of satellites. It's a taxing, months long chore with 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:19.760 no payoff until one day. 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:20.720 Hmmm. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:22.200 An email from Paul. 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.240 The good ish news is that the spot for satellite 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.920 took two ten meter resolution photos of the Toyota location 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:31.760 on April sixteenth, two thousand and one. We got lucky 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.280 with this because there is zero percent cloud cover and 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.360 the bit of overlap between satellite images happened to work 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.440 out that the location was photographed twice. We're even more 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.520 lucky because there's also a fifteen meter resolution Landsat image 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.160 of the area taken on April fifteenth, two thousand and one. 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.360 Paul strikes again. He finds images of the fore runner 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.720 spot taken by two different satellites during the correct period. Unfortunately, 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:55.360 that's where the good news ends. 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:59.200 Only about four percent of a fifteen meter pixel would 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.000 be filled by a toyota. Additionally, it would be under 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.120 tree cover and also possibly split across as many as 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:06.079 four pixels. 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:08.800 So if you zoom in down to the pixel on 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:12.080 a fifteen meter resolution SAT image, a four runner would 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:16.000 cover only four percent of that pixel. Tantalizingly close, but 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:20.800 useless for us. We need high resolution photos. It's frustrating 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.360 to stare at my screen at this wide swath of 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.400 Arizona from the right time frame, knowing the fore Runner 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.319 is likely down there somewhere. I zoom into the spot 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.000 where Greg the camper found it. This is the part 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.960 of CSI when I'd say enhance and the image would 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.160 resolve to finer detail, but in reality it doesn't work 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:43.480 that way. Blurry blurrier, blurry, IST one pixel no detail. 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.960 We've now ruled out all but three satellites our last 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:52.280 hope IRS one, c IRS one D, and Arrows A. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.000 The first two were operated by the Space Agency of India, 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.959 the third by an Israeli company. As Paul digs around online, 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.760 I email the Indian and Israeli embassies in DC. Paul 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.000 soon determines there's no way the Indian satellites capture the 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.480 photos we need. The final final hope is aeros A, 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.800 which would give us two meter images detailed enough to 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.560 see the fore Runner. In August twenty twenty three, I 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.280 get an email from the Israeli embassy saying they'll check 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.800 on it. Six weeks later, Hamas attacks Israel war breaks out. 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.400 I never hear back from them again. We still haven't 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.800 determined whether or not Aerosa captured imagery of the fore 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.440 Runner spot in April two thousand and one. If you 0:10:33.480 --> 0:11:00.600 can help, please contact us. Okay, so we found the 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.760 four Runner spot and a cave. What about other caves 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.199 in the area. My hope is that someone will give 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.240 us a list, or better yet, a map. That's dashed 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.600 immediately when I realized that the Arizona caving community is 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.280 something of a secret society. They do not like outsiders, 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:17.880 especially reporters. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.000 The joke in the caving community is say, hey, I'm 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.440 going caving in Arizona, and the joke is there's no 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:23.439 caves in Arizona. 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.720 Ken Bailey a caver in Kentucky, and. 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:27.480 We all have a big laugh because no one is 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:29.560 going to tell you a location of a cave in Arizona. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:30.679 It's just not going to happen. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.040 You'll find two modes of thought in the caving community. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.240 Dave Decker a caver in New Mexico. 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.040 Arizona is kind of like on the far side of that, 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.280 which is, we don't have any caves, so don't come 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.240 here looking for caves. And the reason that they want 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.520 to keep things secret, and I'm more along these lines myself, 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.280 is that you've got this group in the general public 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:50.600 that they don't care about the caves, they don't care 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.600 about the wildlife, they don't care about the archaeological history 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.839 that may be associated with it, and they just want 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:57.960 to go in there and party, throw beer cans around, 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.760 knock down the stalactites, and spray paint the walls. 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.160 This is critical to understand. The caving community is secretive 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:10.600 because they've been burned repeatedly. Vandals routinely desecrate pristine caves, 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.520 destroying irreplaceable features of beauty that took thousands of years 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.040 to form. It's not that these cavers are asocial. They 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.080 can be friendly. It just pains them to see something 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:25.920 so elegant, something they love deeply defiled, so they turn inward. 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.840 They're suspicious of outsiders. They have a code. Don't speak 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.680 to outsiders, especially not a podcaster looking for the body 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.720 of a killer. Beyond vandals, even people who mean well 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:42.000 can unintentionally do irreparable harm. One big concern is white 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.319 nose syndrome, a fungal disease that kills bats more than 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.600 six millions since two thousand and six. Humans can spread 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.160 it to unaffected caves where bats hibernate. There's more, but 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.600 you get the idea early on. I try to build trust. 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.400 I tell cavers that I worked for years at a 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.120 biodiversity research and in stad I care about nature. I 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:08.680 love nature. That doesn't work silence, I fail to be frank. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.040 It kind of pisses me off. I have ten million 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.640 things to do. I'm trying to report this story responsibly 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.080 and no one will help me. Meanwhile, YouTubers who just 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:22.720 don't care are recklessly going into many of these caves anyway. Slowly, though, 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.040 I earned some trust. More so, several cavers help me 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.680 off the record because I learn information independently, and now 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.040 they need me because they don't want certain things publicized, 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.559 like the name of the cave one hundred and fifty 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.680 feet from where police found Mary's forerunner. Keep in mind, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.080 I already committed to not publishing coordinates or directions or 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.240 anything like that, but the name, not even the name. 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.800 I think this desire for secrecy will backfire, but I'm 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.120 honoring their wishes. To this day, I still don't know 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.680 exactly how many caves are within a mile of the 0:13:54.679 --> 0:14:00.720 forerunner spot, at least four, including Apex, again only one 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.360 hundred and fifty feet from where police find the fore runner. 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.240 Our producer Chris and I do a little test. We 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.600 park a Subaru cross track at that exact spot. We 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.160 walk to Apex and can still easily see the cross truck. 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.640 It makes sense why police thought Robert Fisher was hiding here. 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.240 They couldn't enter it in two thousand and one, the 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.600 entrance was too tight. Instead, they called a plumber who 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.280 snaked in a drain camera. No sign of Fisher. Forty 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.840 one club. Forty one club is on tribal land the 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.560 Ford Apache Indian Reservation. Police teargased it in two thousand 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:41.280 and one. No sign of Fisher. Pishee Burrow, pishibo ro 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.640 though I've seen alternate spellings. It's unclear if police attempted 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:51.320 to search it and Redman Redman is locally famous. Police 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:55.280 tried to search it. No sign of Fisher. There's something 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:59.600 you should know about Redman. Another reason for all the secrecy. Caves, 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.760 even popular ones like Redmen, can be deadly. You have 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.800 to worry about sliding into a crevasse. You have to 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.680 worry about rocks breaking off and bashing in your skull. 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.440 You have to worry about bad air decaying or antiicmatter 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.280 creates pockets of air saturated with carbon dioxide. It can 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.800 kill you. You have to worry about critters, snakes, mountain lions, bears. 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.240 You have to worry about hypothermia. You even have to 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.720 worry about the rapture and extreme anxiety that you need 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:32.400 to get the out now. Inexperienced people can easily die 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.760 in caves. In fact, one died in Redman. His name 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.560 was Aaron's Standage. On February twenty fourth, two thousand and one, 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.120 only six weeks before the Fisher murders, Standage and a 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.400 friend descended into Redmen and traversed it until they reached 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.360 a flooded sump or passage at the back of the cave. 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.880 The friends squeezed through a three foot pole and swam 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.680 ten feet underwater, surfacing in a cavern with only six 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.960 inches of air between water and the rocky ceiling above. 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.640 Standards swam into the same cramped space according to the 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.560 pacin roundup, bobbing in the water breathing scarce air. They 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.480 debated what to do. The friend turned around. When Standage 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.160 didn't follow, the friends sought help. A rescue diver entered 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.000 the flooded swamp through the three foot hole feet first, 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:22.000 pulling an air tank behind him. Navigating underwater, he bumped 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.160 into a body. Using his legs. The diver pulled the 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.120 body out of a crevice slowly through the sump to 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:32.440 the surface. Neither Standage nor his friend, a certified diver, 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.080 took any safety precautions. According to the Heela County Sheriff's 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:40.200 Office quote, they were strictly diving in, holding their breath, 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.640 swimming underwater, and hoping they had air in the next cavern. 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.160 My goal here is not to scare you off from caves. 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.920 They can be places of discovery and adventure, of camaraderie 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:55.560 or solitude. With experience or guides, They're typically safe, but 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.960 you need to exercise caution. Caves are unpredictable. Even profession 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.840 oles die. The most famous death occurred ninety nine years ago. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.520 A man named Floyd Collins got stuck in a cave 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.120 in Kentucky, pinned in place by fawn rocks for weeks. 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.200 Dozens of men tried to save him. The rescue became 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.600 a national spectacle. Millions followed updates via radio. Tens of 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.560 thousands showed up in person. Vendors sold everything from balloons 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.560 to hamburgers. According to The Daily Beast, Bread and Circus, 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.960 a newspaper reporter, William Burke Miller, only five foot five, 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.399 even managed to crawl to Collins and interview him. Miller 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.639 won a pulitzer. Collins died for years. His body was 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.280 a tourist attraction, displayed in a glass covered tasket. Pay 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.520 a dollar enter a cave, see a corpse. In nineteen 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.119 twenty nine, someone stole the body. It was recovered minus 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.800 a leg. Finally, in nineteen eighty nine, Collins got a 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:56.239 proper burial. Since the Collins spectacle, caves have popped up 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:00.000 repeatedly in mass media. In nineteen seventy three, Cormack McCall 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.639 the published Child of God, a novel in which spoiler alert, 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.320 a man kills a woman, burns down her house, and 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.160 flees to a cave. In two thousand and five alone, 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.720 Hollywood gave us the Cavern Spolunker's Fall, Prey to a 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:16.800 supernatural force in Russian caves six percent, on Rotten Tomatoes, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:22.320 The Cave Monsters Huntsplunkers in Romanian caves twelve percent, and 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.159 The Descent, set in western North Carolina, eighty seven percent. 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.080 I love that film. I saw The Descent in a 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:32.520 theater a week before moving to Asheville, North Carolina for college. 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.120 There is, of course, so much more caves in literature 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.479 and song and lore, from Plato to Mumford and Sons 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.919 to the Lord of the Rings. Seijin Pang lived in 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.080 a cave for seven years. A cave in Kenya gave 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.560 us Ebola a cave in Greece gave us Armageddon. John 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.600 of Patmos had apocalyptic visions and recorded the Book of 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.720 Revelation in that cave. I once hiked Devil's Courthouse, a 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.240 mountain in North Carolina with a cave that, according to 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:02.160 Cherokee legend, is home to a plant eyed giant named Judhicola. 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:07.280 Judahicola controls wind, rain, thunder, and lightning. We rarely see 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:12.840 caves in a positive light. They're usually scenes of fear, horror, death, isolation. 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:17.480 That's what we project onto them. But extricated from human narratives, 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:22.359 they're undeniably sublime, exquisite quirks of nature. They form in 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.679 many ways. The ones near the Forerunners spot where police 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:29.000 thought Robert Fisher was hiding, are called solution caves. 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.760 They have been carved out over the course of hundreds 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.800 of thousands of years by the action of running water 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.200 dissolving away the limestone. 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.640 Frank Kimbler is a geologist and associate professor of Earth 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.600 Science at New Mexico Military Institute. He lived in Arizona 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.280 from the late eighties until two thousand and nine, working 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:49.679 as an engineer for the state Department of Minds and 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.320 Mineral Resources. He explored the caves near the Forerunners spot 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.360 in the nineties. The first thing he tells me is that. 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.320 The caving community is very, very secretive, and they won't 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:04.560 tell you anything because people trash things out really bad 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.959 and they leave cans. There's this caving thing that says, 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.600 leave nothing behind and kill nothing but time, and take 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:12.560 nothing but pictures. 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.000 Frank has been in two of the four caves near 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.120 the four Runner spot, forty one Club and Pishie Burrow, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.399 where in nineteen ninety two he almost died on the 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:22.040 way out. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.119 I was really tired. My arms were cramping up, and 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.680 I miscalculated the stride length. You need to have enough 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.920 space to reach up and grab the top ledge to 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:35.840 pull yourself out. And what happened was on the way 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.320 out with my arms cramping up and I was dead tired. 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:41.000 I get to the top and I was about a 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:43.760 foot short. I'm going, oh my god, I messed up 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.640 the stride length. So I'm dangling in there and I'm going, 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.320 all right, I'm too tired to go back down and 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.720 redo and then come back up. So I was the 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:57.760 last person out and my friend Wayne was at the 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:00.640 very top waiting for me, and I tried to reach 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.240 him and I couldn't reach. He reached down and I 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.600 stretched with all my might. He caught my fingertips and 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.159 literally pulled me out. I was scared to death. I 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.960 thought it was going to die dangling in Pisheborough Cave. 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:14.280 But he pulled me out, and when I got to 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.920 the top, I just laid down. I says, thank you, Wayne, 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.880 this is the second time you've saved my life. He says, 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:21.560 don't worry about It's what friends are for. 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.359 Pcburrow was much harder to access than other caves like 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.520 forty one Club or Redman. First, you had to descend 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:29.720 into a deep sinkhole. 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.119 You would absolutely have to repel to get down into Picyboro. 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.320 No other way to get in there, and that's about 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:37.320 forty to sixty feet to get to the bottom. 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:40.719 In nineteen ninety two, right after Frank's near death experience, 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.440 the Picheboro sinkhole collapsed. Now there's only one way in. 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:48.080 The flat metal plate goes in through what's called the 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.280 filopium tubes, aptly named I wouldn't be able to fit 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.520 through it. You probably would because you look like you're 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.159 a pretty slender dude, So fillopium tubes is horrible to 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.400 get through with fancy names like Restricter one and Restrict two. 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.680 And you're telling me that it's so tight that. I mean, 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.920 I'm five eight hundred and thirty five pounds, so I 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:08.959 could probably do it, but you're not. You could do it, 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:10.600 You're not that big of a guy, but it's tight 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:12.919 enough that you don't think you would be able to 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:13.400 get in there. 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.200 I know when I was younger, I weighed one sixty 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:19.760 five and I could have done it. It would have 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:21.560 been a little bit of a stretch, but I was 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:23.880 used to that. But now that I'm one hundred and 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:26.040 eighty nine pounds, I don't think so. 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:29.680 By chance, Frank is within one pound of Robert Fisher's 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.320 weight one hundred and ninety pounds when he disappeared. 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:35.640 I think the chubb around I think that the good 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:39.040 life from my wife's cooking, I would have been stopped 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:43.240 at probably Restrict one because they have different diameters on them. 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:45.960 That's the reason why they named them Restrict one and 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.000 Restrictor two, and hence the name. I mean fallopium tubes 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:50.120