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Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may

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Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. From iHeartRadio and Neon

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Speaker 1: thirty three, I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona,

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Speaker 1: the story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing

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Speaker 1: his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and

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Speaker 1: escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting,

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Speaker 1: Robert Fisher, and I need your help. What got me

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Speaker 1: about this case? Where the caves, people often pitch me

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Speaker 1: story ideas. Many are good, few are great. It's extremely

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Speaker 1: rare to find one that warrants two years of exhaustive

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Speaker 1: investigative labor. There has to be an X factor. A

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Speaker 1: man kills his family, blows up their house, and flees

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Speaker 1: into the wilderness. Go on, then escapes or dies in

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Speaker 1: a cave. Okay, sold? I picture a goony style skeleton

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Speaker 1: in an underground cave in the Arizona Mountains, A romantic,

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Speaker 1: morbid Western adventure. Of course, I want to search the

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Speaker 1: caves myself, but first I need to find them. And

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Speaker 1: let me tell you, the Arizona caving community is the

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Speaker 1: most secretive group I have ever encountered. More than anyone

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Speaker 1: I met while reporting on the Mafia or nine to

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Speaker 1: eleven or anything. Really, no one will tell me the

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Speaker 1: location of these caves, and they're not on a map,

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Speaker 1: but I know that they're very close to where police

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Speaker 1: found Mary Fisher's forerunner, Find the suv, find the caves.

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Speaker 1: For months, I examine every piece of data for clues,

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Speaker 1: every news report, every police record. I'm proud to say

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Speaker 1: in the end my best final guess is within a

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Speaker 1: quarter mile of the actual spot. But that's not good enough.

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Speaker 1: These aren't Hollywood caves. They're holes in the forest floor,

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Speaker 1: tiny dark doors into a subterranean world. They're easy to

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Speaker 1: miss in a vast wilderness. I need the exact spot.

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Speaker 1: I need help. This is where I introduce you to

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Speaker 1: Paul Gemperline. Hey, y'all, Paul is a fan of Season

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Speaker 1: one Missing in Alaska. Of the thousands of people who

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Speaker 1: contacted me, he's been the most helpful when I choose

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Speaker 1: this case. I email Paul, hoping to loop him in

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Speaker 1: as an amateur researcher and satellite imagery analyst. Unsurprisingly, he

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Speaker 1: says yes. Surprisingly, he tells me he's also a recreational caver,

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Speaker 1: an intelligent tech savvy caving superfan a perfect fit the plan.

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Speaker 1: Our producer Chris and I will go into the woods

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Speaker 1: with Scott Steal Detective TJ Juran trying to find the

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Speaker 1: forerunner spot. Based on my research and TJ's memories, I

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Speaker 1: all video the woods and from his headquarters in Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: Paul will try to pinpoint exactly where the SUV was abandoned,

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Speaker 1: like literally the tree was parked against. So one pleasant

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Speaker 1: Phoenix morning, Chris and I meet up with TJ and

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Speaker 1: drive into the mountains. A twist here, A turn there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this is Young Road.

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Speaker 3: Turn right now, So.

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Speaker 4: Now we're going to start heading down to.

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Speaker 1: We descend from the top of the muggy on rem

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Speaker 1: that jagged strip of cliffs extending across Arizona. Young Road

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Speaker 1: is paved for a bit. Then Bumpy, look at my

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Speaker 1: fucking back windshield. Oh fuck, So you used to have

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Speaker 1: a Bronco. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I actually bought it in ninety four, early the year

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Speaker 2: he was arrested. And I go to the Ford dealship

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Speaker 2: and there's a white Bronco and I told the guy

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Speaker 2: I don't want to fucking white. So he shows me

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Speaker 2: all these different colors and I picked one that was

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Speaker 2: turquoise green, but it had, you know, the white top.

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Speaker 5: It had the turquoise top, and it looked stupid. So

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Speaker 5: he goes, we're here, come around back. Let me show

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Speaker 5: you what else we got, and he takes me around back.

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Speaker 5: There's like fifteen white Broncos lined up. I'm like, I

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Speaker 5: told you, I don't want to know J Bronco.

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Speaker 1: We're driving down this dirt road faster than OJ on

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Speaker 1: an LA Highway when.

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Speaker 5: Your destination is ahead on the left.

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Speaker 1: We're here where.

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Speaker 2: There should be a little road that we can turn

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Speaker 2: left onto it. No, holy shit, that's it.

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Speaker 6: That's it. Yeah, huh shit.

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Speaker 1: We turn onto a raggedy side road and park.

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Speaker 2: It should be right generally in this direction.

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Speaker 6: Do you want to walk?

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 1: An eerie silence forms the soundtrack of the forest, interrupted

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Speaker 1: only by our footsteps in the wind. I pull out

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Speaker 1: my phone so I don't have cell service, but I

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Speaker 1: have GPS, so since the map is loaded, if we

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Speaker 1: start walking, we'll see okay, well we're here.

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Speaker 6: And then we'll get right to that spot.

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Speaker 1: So we walk.

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Speaker 5: Watch where you walk, rattlesnakes and bears.

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Speaker 1: TJ and I head in different directions. Memory guides him.

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Speaker 1: GPS guides me.

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Speaker 6: Do you mind if I walk to finish the coordinate?

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Speaker 1: TJ yells at me to follow him. I can tell

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Speaker 1: he's kind of pissed. I ignore him and speed walk away.

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Speaker 1: We've made it so far. I'm not stopping until I

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Speaker 1: reach these coordinates. I think this is it. Our producer

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Speaker 1: Chris is stranded in the middle, unsure who to follow

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Speaker 1: me or TJ. TJ, the cave's over here. I found it.

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Speaker 1: TJ walks over.

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Speaker 4: That's it. That's the cave, the cave.

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Speaker 1: That shall not be named. I know its name, but

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Speaker 1: I've been asked by cavers not to publicize it. They're

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Speaker 1: worried a name will help people find and vandalize it,

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Speaker 1: which means I get to rename it Apex Simple, the

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Speaker 1: name of my high school. Winding through the forest, I

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Speaker 1: spot a sinkhole maybe thirty feet wide thirty feet long.

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Speaker 1: A wash or seasonal creek bed flows right into it. Today,

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Speaker 1: there's no water, one hundred percent dry. The sink is

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Speaker 1: filled with branches and leaves and dirt. A fallen tree

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Speaker 1: crosses from one side to the other. A precarious bridge

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Speaker 1: peering down maybe twenty feet at the bottom between craggy rocks.

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Speaker 1: There it is the cave entrance. I know the Forerunner

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Speaker 1: was parked near here, within one hundred and fifty feet.

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Speaker 1: The problem is it all looks the same trees, bushes, rocks.

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Speaker 1: This will take more detective work, so I video it

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Speaker 1: than TJ. Chris and I walk back to the car.

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. Johnny made me fucking sweat.

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Speaker 1: TJ and I laugh about bolting in different directions, yelling at.

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Speaker 7: Each other, and then some poor sap caught in the middle.

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Speaker 1: Well, sorry, guys, but we made it. Back in Phoenix,

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Speaker 1: I send my video to Paul Gemperline. I often joke

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Speaker 1: that these stories turned me into John Nash or Carrie

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Speaker 1: Matheson or Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, a

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Speaker 1: crazed person surrounded by maps and charts and sticky notes.

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Speaker 1: Paul puts me to shame. I see his computer monitors.

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Speaker 1: They're playing a dozen videos simultaneously. He's comparing old footage

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Speaker 1: of the Forerunner recovery, every archived angle to video. I

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Speaker 1: took in the woods. Here a tree, there a bush,

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Speaker 1: Here's some rocks. They are a shadow. Can we narrow

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Speaker 1: it down? Can we find the exact spot where Robert

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Speaker 1: left Mary's forerunner.

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Speaker 8: I think I've figured it out, when a little bit

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Speaker 8: crazy in the process.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this genius man found it.

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Speaker 8: I've identified those double trees. I've identified this dead tree.

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Speaker 8: I've identified this leaning tree, this tree here, I've identified

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Speaker 8: the dead one there.

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Speaker 1: VOILA. Thank you, Paul. So at this point we found

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Speaker 1: the cave and the fore runner spot, which allows Paul

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Speaker 1: to search old satellite imagery for any photos taken between

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Speaker 1: April tenth and April twentieth, two thousand and one. Why

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Speaker 1: let's say we find an image from I don't know,

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Speaker 1: April sixteenth. Can we see the fore runner. If so,

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Speaker 1: we can narrow down how long it was in the woods.

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Speaker 1: Tighten the timeline. Paul starts to rule out or in

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Speaker 1: dozens of satellites. It's a taxing, months long chore with

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Speaker 1: no payoff until one day.

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Speaker 6: Hmmm.

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Speaker 1: An email from Paul.

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Speaker 8: The good ish news is that the spot for satellite

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Speaker 8: took two ten meter resolution photos of the Toyota location

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Speaker 8: on April sixteenth, two thousand and one. We got lucky

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Speaker 8: with this because there is zero percent cloud cover and

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Speaker 8: the bit of overlap between satellite images happened to work

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Speaker 8: out that the location was photographed twice. We're even more

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Speaker 8: lucky because there's also a fifteen meter resolution Landsat image

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Speaker 8: of the area taken on April fifteenth, two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: Paul strikes again. He finds images of the fore runner

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Speaker 1: spot taken by two different satellites during the correct period. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: that's where the good news ends.

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Speaker 8: Only about four percent of a fifteen meter pixel would

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Speaker 8: be filled by a toyota. Additionally, it would be under

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Speaker 8: tree cover and also possibly split across as many as

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Speaker 8: four pixels.

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Speaker 1: So if you zoom in down to the pixel on

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Speaker 1: a fifteen meter resolution SAT image, a four runner would

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Speaker 1: cover only four percent of that pixel. Tantalizingly close, but

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Speaker 1: useless for us. We need high resolution photos. It's frustrating

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Speaker 1: to stare at my screen at this wide swath of

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Speaker 1: Arizona from the right time frame, knowing the fore Runner

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Speaker 1: is likely down there somewhere. I zoom into the spot

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Speaker 1: where Greg the camper found it. This is the part

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Speaker 1: of CSI when I'd say enhance and the image would

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Speaker 1: resolve to finer detail, but in reality it doesn't work

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Speaker 1: that way. Blurry blurrier, blurry, IST one pixel no detail.

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Speaker 1: We've now ruled out all but three satellites our last

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Speaker 1: hope IRS one, c IRS one D, and Arrows A.

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Speaker 1: The first two were operated by the Space Agency of India,

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Speaker 1: the third by an Israeli company. As Paul digs around online,

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Speaker 1: I email the Indian and Israeli embassies in DC. Paul

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Speaker 1: soon determines there's no way the Indian satellites capture the

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Speaker 1: photos we need. The final final hope is aeros A,

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Speaker 1: which would give us two meter images detailed enough to

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Speaker 1: see the fore Runner. In August twenty twenty three, I

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Speaker 1: get an email from the Israeli embassy saying they'll check

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Speaker 1: on it. Six weeks later, Hamas attacks Israel war breaks out.

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Speaker 1: I never hear back from them again. We still haven't

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Speaker 1: determined whether or not Aerosa captured imagery of the fore

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Speaker 1: Runner spot in April two thousand and one. If you

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Speaker 1: can help, please contact us. Okay, so we found the

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Speaker 1: four Runner spot and a cave. What about other caves

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Speaker 1: in the area. My hope is that someone will give

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Speaker 1: us a list, or better yet, a map. That's dashed

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Speaker 1: immediately when I realized that the Arizona caving community is

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Speaker 1: something of a secret society. They do not like outsiders,

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Speaker 1: especially reporters.

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Speaker 3: The joke in the caving community is say, hey, I'm

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Speaker 3: going caving in Arizona, and the joke is there's no

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Speaker 3: caves in Arizona.

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Speaker 1: Ken Bailey a caver in Kentucky, and.

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Speaker 7: We all have a big laugh because no one is

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Speaker 7: going to tell you a location of a cave in Arizona.

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Speaker 7: It's just not going to happen.

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Speaker 4: You'll find two modes of thought in the caving community.

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Speaker 1: Dave Decker a caver in New Mexico.

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Speaker 3: Arizona is kind of like on the far side of that,

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Speaker 3: which is, we don't have any caves, so don't come

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Speaker 3: here looking for caves. And the reason that they want

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Speaker 3: to keep things secret, and I'm more along these lines myself,

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Speaker 3: is that you've got this group in the general public

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Speaker 3: that they don't care about the caves, they don't care

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Speaker 3: about the wildlife, they don't care about the archaeological history

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Speaker 3: that may be associated with it, and they just want

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Speaker 3: to go in there and party, throw beer cans around,

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Speaker 3: knock down the stalactites, and spray paint the walls.

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Speaker 1: This is critical to understand. The caving community is secretive

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Speaker 1: because they've been burned repeatedly. Vandals routinely desecrate pristine caves,

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Speaker 1: destroying irreplaceable features of beauty that took thousands of years

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Speaker 1: to form. It's not that these cavers are asocial. They

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Speaker 1: can be friendly. It just pains them to see something

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Speaker 1: so elegant, something they love deeply defiled, so they turn inward.

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Speaker 1: They're suspicious of outsiders. They have a code. Don't speak

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Speaker 1: to outsiders, especially not a podcaster looking for the body

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Speaker 1: of a killer. Beyond vandals, even people who mean well

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Speaker 1: can unintentionally do irreparable harm. One big concern is white

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Speaker 1: nose syndrome, a fungal disease that kills bats more than

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Speaker 1: six millions since two thousand and six. Humans can spread

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Speaker 1: it to unaffected caves where bats hibernate. There's more, but

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Speaker 1: you get the idea early on. I try to build trust.

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Speaker 1: I tell cavers that I worked for years at a

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Speaker 1: biodiversity research and in stad I care about nature. I

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Speaker 1: love nature. That doesn't work silence, I fail to be frank.

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Speaker 1: It kind of pisses me off. I have ten million

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Speaker 1: things to do. I'm trying to report this story responsibly

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Speaker 1: and no one will help me. Meanwhile, YouTubers who just

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Speaker 1: don't care are recklessly going into many of these caves anyway. Slowly, though,

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Speaker 1: I earned some trust. More so, several cavers help me

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Speaker 1: off the record because I learn information independently, and now

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Speaker 1: they need me because they don't want certain things publicized,

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Speaker 1: like the name of the cave one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: feet from where police found Mary's forerunner. Keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: I already committed to not publishing coordinates or directions or

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Speaker 1: anything like that, but the name, not even the name.

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Speaker 1: I think this desire for secrecy will backfire, but I'm

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Speaker 1: honoring their wishes. To this day, I still don't know

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Speaker 1: exactly how many caves are within a mile of the

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Speaker 1: forerunner spot, at least four, including Apex, again only one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty feet from where police find the fore runner.

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Speaker 1: Our producer Chris and I do a little test. We

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Speaker 1: park a Subaru cross track at that exact spot. We

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Speaker 1: walk to Apex and can still easily see the cross truck.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense why police thought Robert Fisher was hiding here.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't enter it in two thousand and one, the

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Speaker 1: entrance was too tight. Instead, they called a plumber who

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Speaker 1: snaked in a drain camera. No sign of Fisher. Forty

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Speaker 1: one club. Forty one club is on tribal land the

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Speaker 1: Ford Apache Indian Reservation. Police teargased it in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one. No sign of Fisher. Pishee Burrow, pishibo ro

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Speaker 1: though I've seen alternate spellings. It's unclear if police attempted

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Speaker 1: to search it and Redman Redman is locally famous. Police

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Speaker 1: tried to search it. No sign of Fisher. There's something

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Speaker 1: you should know about Redman. Another reason for all the secrecy. Caves,

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Speaker 1: even popular ones like Redmen, can be deadly. You have

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Speaker 1: to worry about sliding into a crevasse. You have to

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Speaker 1: worry about rocks breaking off and bashing in your skull.

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Speaker 1: You have to worry about bad air decaying or antiicmatter

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Speaker 1: creates pockets of air saturated with carbon dioxide. It can

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Speaker 1: kill you. You have to worry about critters, snakes, mountain lions, bears.

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Speaker 1: You have to worry about hypothermia. You even have to

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Speaker 1: worry about the rapture and extreme anxiety that you need

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Speaker 1: to get the out now. Inexperienced people can easily die

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Speaker 1: in caves. In fact, one died in Redman. His name

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Speaker 1: was Aaron's Standage. On February twenty fourth, two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: only six weeks before the Fisher murders, Standage and a

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Speaker 1: friend descended into Redmen and traversed it until they reached

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Speaker 1: a flooded sump or passage at the back of the cave.

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Speaker 1: The friends squeezed through a three foot pole and swam

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Speaker 1: ten feet underwater, surfacing in a cavern with only six

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Speaker 1: inches of air between water and the rocky ceiling above.

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Speaker 1: Standards swam into the same cramped space according to the

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Speaker 1: pacin roundup, bobbing in the water breathing scarce air. They

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Speaker 1: debated what to do. The friend turned around. When Standage

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Speaker 1: didn't follow, the friends sought help. A rescue diver entered

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Speaker 1: the flooded swamp through the three foot hole feet first,

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Speaker 1: pulling an air tank behind him. Navigating underwater, he bumped

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Speaker 1: into a body. Using his legs. The diver pulled the

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Speaker 1: body out of a crevice slowly through the sump to

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Speaker 1: the surface. Neither Standage nor his friend, a certified diver,

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Speaker 1: took any safety precautions. According to the Heela County Sheriff's

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Speaker 1: Office quote, they were strictly diving in, holding their breath,

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Speaker 1: swimming underwater, and hoping they had air in the next cavern.

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Speaker 1: My goal here is not to scare you off from caves.

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Speaker 1: They can be places of discovery and adventure, of camaraderie

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Speaker 1: or solitude. With experience or guides, They're typically safe, but

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Speaker 1: you need to exercise caution. Caves are unpredictable. Even profession

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Speaker 1: oles die. The most famous death occurred ninety nine years ago.

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Speaker 1: A man named Floyd Collins got stuck in a cave

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Speaker 1: in Kentucky, pinned in place by fawn rocks for weeks.

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Speaker 1: Dozens of men tried to save him. The rescue became

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Speaker 1: a national spectacle. Millions followed updates via radio. Tens of

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Speaker 1: thousands showed up in person. Vendors sold everything from balloons

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Speaker 1: to hamburgers. According to The Daily Beast, Bread and Circus,

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Speaker 1: a newspaper reporter, William Burke Miller, only five foot five,

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Speaker 1: even managed to crawl to Collins and interview him. Miller

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Speaker 1: won a pulitzer. Collins died for years. His body was

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Speaker 1: a tourist attraction, displayed in a glass covered tasket. Pay

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Speaker 1: a dollar enter a cave, see a corpse. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty nine, someone stole the body. It was recovered minus

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Speaker 1: a leg. Finally, in nineteen eighty nine, Collins got a

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Speaker 1: proper burial. Since the Collins spectacle, caves have popped up

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Speaker 1: repeatedly in mass media. In nineteen seventy three, Cormack McCall

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Speaker 1: the published Child of God, a novel in which spoiler alert,

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Speaker 1: a man kills a woman, burns down her house, and

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Speaker 1: flees to a cave. In two thousand and five alone,

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Speaker 1: Hollywood gave us the Cavern Spolunker's Fall, Prey to a

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Speaker 1: supernatural force in Russian caves six percent, on Rotten Tomatoes,

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Speaker 1: The Cave Monsters Huntsplunkers in Romanian caves twelve percent, and

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Speaker 1: The Descent, set in western North Carolina, eighty seven percent.

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Speaker 1: I love that film. I saw The Descent in a

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Speaker 1: theater a week before moving to Asheville, North Carolina for college.

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Speaker 1: There is, of course, so much more caves in literature

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Speaker 1: and song and lore, from Plato to Mumford and Sons

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Speaker 1: to the Lord of the Rings. Seijin Pang lived in

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Speaker 1: a cave for seven years. A cave in Kenya gave

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Speaker 1: us Ebola a cave in Greece gave us Armageddon. John

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Speaker 1: of Patmos had apocalyptic visions and recorded the Book of

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Speaker 1: Revelation in that cave. I once hiked Devil's Courthouse, a

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Speaker 1: mountain in North Carolina with a cave that, according to

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Speaker 1: Cherokee legend, is home to a plant eyed giant named Judhicola.

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Speaker 1: Judahicola controls wind, rain, thunder, and lightning. We rarely see

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Speaker 1: caves in a positive light. They're usually scenes of fear, horror, death, isolation.

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Speaker 1: That's what we project onto them. But extricated from human narratives,

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Speaker 1: they're undeniably sublime, exquisite quirks of nature. They form in

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Speaker 1: many ways. The ones near the Forerunners spot where police

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Speaker 1: thought Robert Fisher was hiding, are called solution caves.

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Speaker 7: They have been carved out over the course of hundreds

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Speaker 7: of thousands of years by the action of running water

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Speaker 7: dissolving away the limestone.

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Speaker 1: Frank Kimbler is a geologist and associate professor of Earth

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Speaker 1: Science at New Mexico Military Institute. He lived in Arizona

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Speaker 1: from the late eighties until two thousand and nine, working

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Speaker 1: as an engineer for the state Department of Minds and

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Speaker 1: Mineral Resources. He explored the caves near the Forerunners spot

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Speaker 1: in the nineties. The first thing he tells me is that.

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Speaker 7: The caving community is very, very secretive, and they won't

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Speaker 7: tell you anything because people trash things out really bad

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Speaker 7: and they leave cans. There's this caving thing that says,

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Speaker 7: leave nothing behind and kill nothing but time, and take

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Speaker 7: nothing but pictures.

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Speaker 1: Frank has been in two of the four caves near

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Speaker 1: the four Runner spot, forty one Club and Pishie Burrow,

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Speaker 1: where in nineteen ninety two he almost died on the

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Speaker 1: way out.

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Speaker 7: I was really tired. My arms were cramping up, and

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Speaker 7: I miscalculated the stride length. You need to have enough

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Speaker 7: space to reach up and grab the top ledge to

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Speaker 7: pull yourself out. And what happened was on the way

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Speaker 7: out with my arms cramping up and I was dead tired.

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Speaker 7: I get to the top and I was about a

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Speaker 7: foot short. I'm going, oh my god, I messed up

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Speaker 7: the stride length. So I'm dangling in there and I'm going,

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Speaker 7: all right, I'm too tired to go back down and

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Speaker 7: redo and then come back up. So I was the

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Speaker 7: last person out and my friend Wayne was at the

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Speaker 7: very top waiting for me, and I tried to reach

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Speaker 7: him and I couldn't reach. He reached down and I

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Speaker 7: stretched with all my might. He caught my fingertips and

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Speaker 7: literally pulled me out. I was scared to death. I

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Speaker 7: thought it was going to die dangling in Pisheborough Cave.

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Speaker 7: But he pulled me out, and when I got to

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Speaker 7: the top, I just laid down. I says, thank you, Wayne,

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Speaker 7: this is the second time you've saved my life. He says,

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Speaker 7: don't worry about It's what friends are for.

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Speaker 1: Pcburrow was much harder to access than other caves like

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Speaker 1: forty one Club or Redman. First, you had to descend

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Speaker 1: into a deep sinkhole.

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Speaker 7: You would absolutely have to repel to get down into Picyboro.

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Speaker 7: No other way to get in there, and that's about

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Speaker 7: forty to sixty feet to get to the bottom.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety two, right after Frank's near death experience,

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Speaker 1: the Picheboro sinkhole collapsed. Now there's only one way in.

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Speaker 7: The flat metal plate goes in through what's called the

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Speaker 7: filopium tubes, aptly named I wouldn't be able to fit

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Speaker 7: through it. You probably would because you look like you're

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Speaker 7: a pretty slender dude, So fillopium tubes is horrible to

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Speaker 7: get through with fancy names like Restricter one and Restrict two.

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Speaker 1: And you're telling me that it's so tight that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm five eight hundred and thirty five pounds, so I

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Speaker 1: could probably do it, but you're not. You could do it,

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Speaker 1: You're not that big of a guy, but it's tight

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Speaker 1: enough that you don't think you would be able to

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Speaker 1: get in there.

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Speaker 7: I know when I was younger, I weighed one sixty

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Speaker 7: five and I could have done it. It would have

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Speaker 7: been a little bit of a stretch, but I was

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Speaker 7: used to that. But now that I'm one hundred and

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Speaker 7: eighty nine pounds, I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: By chance, Frank is within one pound of Robert Fisher's

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Speaker 1: weight one hundred and ninety pounds when he disappeared.

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Speaker 7: I think the chubb around I think that the good

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Speaker 7: life from my wife's cooking, I would have been stopped

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Speaker 7: at probably Restrict one because they have different diameters on them.

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Speaker 7: That's the reason why they named them Restrict one and

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Speaker 7: Restrictor two, and hence the name. I mean fallopium tubes

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Speaker 7: that describes all tight.

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Speaker 1: That is, if I went in there, am I just

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00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: in an extraordinarily claustrophobic tube for a long period of

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Speaker 1: time until it open.

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Speaker 7: It would be you would be. That's a guarantee. And

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Speaker 7: I've been in tight places like that before. You would

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Speaker 7: have been probably more than one hundred feet of ultra

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Speaker 7: tighte we're talking about. Got to have your hands directly

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Speaker 7: in front of you, not by your sides, and you've

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Speaker 7: got to push with your feet and pull with your

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Speaker 7: hands to get through it. No way to turn around,

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Speaker 7: no way to do anything. You can't back out. You

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Speaker 7: just once you get started, you got to keep going.

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Speaker 1: When I spoke to a coworker of Robert Fishers from

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Speaker 1: the early nineties, she was the first person to confirm

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Speaker 1: to me that he had been in at least one

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Speaker 1: cave in that area, and she did not remember the

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Speaker 1: name of the cave, but what she said is that

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Speaker 1: they went biking with some coworkers and that Fisher and

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Speaker 1: some of his coworkers went into a cave and then

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Speaker 1: came out another entrance. As far as I could tell,

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Speaker 1: the only one in that area that fits that description

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Speaker 1: is PC Burrow. Are there any other caves in that

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Speaker 1: area that you know of that you can enter one way?

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Speaker 1: And exit another.

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Speaker 7: I gotta think about this. You can't do it in

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Speaker 7: forty one Club, as far as I can remember PC

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00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 7: Burrow before the sinkle entrance collapse. If you knew the

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Speaker 7: way around inside that cave and knew it well, yes,

430
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 7: you could go in one side and come out the other,

431
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 7: although coming out the filopium tubes would be an absolute bitch.

432
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 7: Going in that way as an absolute bitch. Forty one

433
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 7: Club I heard somebody say something that there was another

434
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 7: inference to that. I don't know, and I don't remember,

435
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 7: but I do know that pshew Borrow had two ways

436
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 7: in and two ways out at one time. Now I

437
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 7: think it only has one unless somebody made some discoveries

438
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 7: since I was there.

439
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to determine which cave Robert Ashley

440
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: and their coworkers entered in the nineties p she Burro

441
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: seems unlikely they would have had to either repel down

442
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,959
Speaker 1: into a sinkhole or crawl through fillopian tubes, neither matches

443
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 1: Ashley's account, but I'm unaware of any other cave in

444
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 1: the area through which Fisher could enter one way and

445
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: exit another. Frank and I are kindred spirits adventurous souls.

446
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: I suspect you are too past caves. We chat about

447
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: lost minds and treasures and UFOs. Sorry UAPs. I once

448
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: hunted for Forest Fenn's treasure. So did Frank. Fenn was

449
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: an art dealer who hit a million dollar treasure chest

450
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: somewhere in the Mountain West. He wrote a poem with

451
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: nine clues to find it. This is what I wanted

452
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: to do for Missing Season two, spend my days in

453
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: the wilderness treasure hunting. Instead, someone found the chest, Fenn died,

454
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: and I ended up in New York at the height

455
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: of COVID, sifting through nine to eleven photos. Frank tells

456
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: me intriguing stories, including one about people he knows who

457
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: found treasure in the Oregon Mountains organ in New Mexico.

458
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 7: They found a partially concealed mine in the Oregon Mountains,

459
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 7: and once they unsealed it and went back into the

460
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 7: back end of it, there was a stacked up silver

461
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 7: bars and Spanish armor in the back.

462
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: Frank zoom background is the site where a UFO allegedly

463
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: crashed near Roswell in nineteen forty seven. Did you ever

464
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: find any piece of it?

465
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 7: I have got probably thirty or four fragments of metal

466
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 7: that have come from out there. Some of it's been

467
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 7: analyzed and it comes back as being anomalous.

468
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: I tell Frank that these shows missing in Alaska, a

469
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: nine to eleven in Arizona are Gothic treasure hunts. A

470
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: plane carrying two congressmen, a doctor who vanished in New

471
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: York the night before nine to eleven, A familicidal fugitive.

472
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: What drives Frank, what drives.

473
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 7: Me, It's that innate curiosity that is in almost everybody.

474
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 7: What's at the top of the mountain. Well, we climb

475
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 7: Everest because we want to go to the top of it.

476
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 7: We explore space, We go to the moon. It's in

477
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 7: our nature to look for things. It's just there to.

478
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: Explore, including caves, which feel like a final refuge from

479
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: our digital age voids. To explore blank space is to

480
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: give us some meaning, any meaning, in a day and

481
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: age where it feels like there isn't a lot of

482
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: exploration to do. It's something that is a little bit

483
00:26:55,359 --> 00:27:00,239
Speaker 1: of a pioneer spirit, because even when we're saturated with

484
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: satellites and cameras and drones and maps and tobo this

485
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: and Tobo that, and history and photos. There are caves

486
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: that are undiscovered, and it's got to be absolutely exhilarating

487
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: to discover something new that you're either the first person

488
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: or the first person in a very long time to

489
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: go into.

490
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 7: There are undiscovered caves. There are many things that need

491
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 7: to be explored. The exploration days are not over yet.

492
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: As our interview winds down, Frank hou's a surprise. He

493
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: tells me about another cave near the fore Runner spot

494
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: number five Columbine. I get excited, but.

495
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 7: It's full of water. There's no way that you could

496
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 7: even camp out in that thing. We were water up

497
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 7: to our armpits and that thing. I kept thinking we

498
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 7: were going to drown, but no, and it was ice cold.

499
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: Not habitable, a dead end. If you like this show,

500
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: please download our first two seasons, Missing in Alaska and

501
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: Missing on nine to eleven. For updates, visit Neon thirty

502
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: three dot com or follow me on Twitter at John

503
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: waalzac Jo n Wa l Czak. Thanks for listening. My

504
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: initial plan is to search the Fisher caves using autonomous

505
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: aerial drones. Then I have trouble finding the caves. I

506
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: don't want to damage them. There are legal issues that

507
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: technology isn't there yet, and regardless, it's expensive, and we are,

508
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: as I've said before, but a humble podcast. There are

509
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: so many hurdles.

510
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 9: It's dog dusty, narrow, all kinds of geometry, and you

511
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 9: have to figure out where do I go, how do

512
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 9: I stay safe?

513
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 6: And do all of this with all.

514
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: The human Sebastian Chaer is an associate professor at Carnegie

515
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: Mellon University's Robotics Institute. He was part of a team

516
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: that participated in something called the DARPAT Subterranean Challenge, sponsored

517
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: by the US Defense Department.

518
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 9: The goal was to explore underground spaces and find objects

519
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 9: in those spaces, such as people and so. The ideas

520
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 9: that before you send any first responders in, can you

521
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 9: see what you have ahead of you in a safe way.

522
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: One day in the near future, police might unleash a

523
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: swarm of drones into a cave to search for a

524
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: fugitive or a missing splunker. Yet for now, nothing beats

525
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: in old fashioned boots on the ground approach. So let

526
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: me reintroduce you to.

527
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 4: Hi, Dave Decker.

528
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: I'm the owner and principal geologist at Southwest Geophysical Consulting

529
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: out of Albuquerque, New Mexico.

530
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: And Hi.

531
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 10: My name is ger Jorgensen Olage. I've been working for

532
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 10: a Southwest Geophysical since twenty eighteen.

533
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: We hired Dave and Garrett to help us search two caves,

534
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: Apex and Redman. Part of this is just for fun.

535
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: What an absurd job I have. I tell friends, I'll

536
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 1: be off the grid in Arizona in a cave hunting

537
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: for the bones of a killer. However, it is also

538
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: a legitimate search for clues. We're hunting for guns, bullets, tobacco, tins, keys.

539
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: Our plan is not only to search the caves, but

540
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: also to map them with widar, scan for other caves

541
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: using a drone and metal detect around the fore Runners spot.

542
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: So in November twenty twenty three, I fly back to Phoenix,

543
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: as do the Polls, Paul Deckett, our executive producer, and

544
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: Paul Kemberlin, our fan turned researcher. The Pauls and I

545
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: meet Dave and Garrett at the fore Runner spot. I

546
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: tell Dave he looks like Gary Sinise. He seems mildly offended,

547
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: which I don't get. The next day he explains he

548
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: thought I was talking about Gary Busey. This is our plan.

549
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: Day one explore and map APEX and Redman. Day two

550
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: metal detect and fly the drone. To start, we get

551
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: a safety briefing.

552
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: Okay, so always want a good quality helmet with the

553
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: chin strap. Don't wear a construction helmet with rubber band.

554
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 3: Not going to work if a rock falls off the

555
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 3: ceiling and hit your head because the first rock's going

556
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 3: to knock the helmet off, the second rock's going to

557
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: crush your skull once you're around the cave entrance. The

558
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: cave entrance tends to be the location where most rock

559
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 3: fall actually does occur, so try to be pretty careful

560
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 3: when you're at the cave entrance. That's also where most

561
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 3: critters hang out, so snakes, coyotes, rentail, cats, raccoons, any

562
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: number of wild animals use cave entrances and the first

563
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 3: inner room of a cave as shelter, so that's where

564
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 3: you're most likely going to run into them. So just

565
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: be aware of that and kind of be expecting it,

566
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: so when the raccoon comes flying out at you or

567
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: the owl comes flying out at you, you don't get startled,

568
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: step backwards and.

569
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 4: Fall off a cliff.

570
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: One time in a cave entrance. Garrett came face to

571
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: face with a bear.

572
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: Start to crawl in.

573
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 10: Look up and it's about as close as we are.

574
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 6: Just looking at me there.

575
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh shit.

576
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 10: I start to back out and then I stand up

577
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 10: and I hear it bolt, so I think, a fuck,

578
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 10: it's coming. It's charging me. So it's the cave entrances

579
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 10: backed up against the cliff face. I don't remember climbing

580
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 10: into about twelve feet high. I just remember the next

581
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 10: thing I was up on top of it, scaled the rock,

582
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 10: and then from there I did jog to my group.

583
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 10: At that point, I'm like, Okay, it probably can't get

584
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 10: to me up that sheer rock.

585
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: It might get tight in the cave. Dave says, it

586
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: feels like mother's giving you a hug.

587
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: If you're into that kind of thing. I am like it.

588
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 3: I like the feeling of being in a rock chamber.

589
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: It's surrounded by rock on all sides. But some people

590
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: don't like that and they start to panic.

591
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 10: Remain calm in case someone does get injured. The first

592
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 10: risk is going to be hypothermia. Not moving around forty

593
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 10: degree environment becomes very cold, very fast.

594
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: It's important to bring.

595
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 10: Extra water, extra food, extra light, redundancy. It's just good

596
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 10: to emphasize how isolated the environment is. It may seem obvious,

597
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 10: but we're becoming more dependent on these technologies that just

598
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 10: don't work underground. No Google maps, no satellite, no GPS,

599
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 10: no radio, no cell signal. What you have on your

600
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 10: person and what your teammates have is all you got

601
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 10: down there, and there's no way to get in contact

602
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 10: with the surface.

603
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: Treat critters, snakes, spiders, bats respectfully. It's their home. Don't

604
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: break off decorations, stalactites and stalagmites. Be careful with any

605
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: sign of human activity.

606
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 3: The footprints that you see in there could be one

607
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 3: thousand years old. The charcoal that you see along the

608
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: path might actually be from the Native Americans that were

609
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 3: exploring the cave.

610
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: And with that, the descent we climb down in the

611
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: sink to the entrance into Apex, a small hole in

612
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: the ground, a jagged cavity in the earth that even

613
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: light struggles to enter.

614
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 4: There's blood on the rock in here.

615
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 3: O human, No, No, I'm sure it's just a gameing

616
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 3: like something killed something and.

617
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 4: Dragged in there.

618
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 6: Oh okay, so scary, but it does go.

619
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 4: So it goes into a small room right over here.

620
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 4: It's big enough to turn around in.

621
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 6: Can tell how fresh the blood is?

622
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 4: No, I can't tell it.

623
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 6: To a good start.

624
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: Garrett goes first, then Paul Gemberline, then me. I slither forward,

625
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: constricted dirt below rock above. It's very, very tight. This

626
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: is the first cave I've ever been in. Had to

627
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: crawl on our stomachs just to get into the entrance.

628
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: And then you drop down, and it's very tight. The

629
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: front room is barely big enough for two people. Paul

630
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: Gemperline and I crouched down. Garrett is ahead somewhere, scoping

631
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: a route. To go any further, I have to drop

632
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: into a cramped hole, crawl forward, double back, drop down again.

633
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: And this is just the start. Remember police thought this

634
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: cave was so tight and treacherous they didn't even attempt

635
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: to enter it. We've already made it further than the

636
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: SWAT team. I debate moving on. I want to push myself.

637
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: I want color for the show, but I don't want

638
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: to navigate the winding, hermetic belly of this rock beast.

639
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: I feel suffocated only ten feet in. I choose not

640
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: to proceed. Unlike me, Paul Gemperline isn't phased. Another day,

641
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: another cave. I give him my recorder.

642
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 11: Yeah, I'm not gonna mess with the settings. And I

643
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 11: clicked it and it's got a red light and it's recording.

644
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 11: I'm pretty sure.

645
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 6: So, and you need to just shum in your pocket

646
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 6: or whatever. Yeah, I'll try to not destroy it.

647
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: I exit. Dave enters, Hey, Paul, I'm coming in right

648
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: by it, all right, Paul Deckt and I stand in

649
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: the sink.

650
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 4: Dave made off in comment.

651
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: He said, unless Fisher was an experienced cave or I

652
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 3: doubt he would have gone in here.

653
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's extremely tight.

654
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: So yes, he is known to have gone into caves occasionally,

655
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: but he definitely wasn't a professional. So we are with

656
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: two people who do this professionally and somebody who's done

657
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: it extensively recreationally. Paul and I have never been in

658
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: a cave before. I've now been in a cave about

659
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,479
Speaker 1: ten feet in. This is extremely tight. The idea that

660
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: you would crawl in here with like a big packful

661
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: of supplies and survive for weeks in a labyrinth of tunnels,

662
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: I mean maybe somewhere else, but the only reason you

663
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: would crawl into this cave is either to explore it

664
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: for fun or to die, not to hide out here.

665
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: It's very clausophobic. It's very tight. I doubt he was

666
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: ever in it before. It's not one that people really

667
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 1: know widely. My nerves are a little up, even from

668
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: crawling on my stomach through the entrance. The entrance itself,

669
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: that's the first cave I've ever been in a my

670
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: life is very tight. Think, even if you want to

671
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: die by suicide, you're not gonna be like I want

672
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: to call into this miserably claustrophobic little cave. We're in

673
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: a beautiful forest, Paw and I are down in the sink,

674
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: but you look up top and it's very pretty, and

675
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: we're looking up at the trees and it's still sunny,

676
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: and it's burning like the entrance of a dark little hole.

677
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: Here for a while, we hear voices grow weaker than vanish.

678
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 11: Hey, Garrett, can you hear me? Yeah, I'm coming through

679
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 11: this triangle part?

680
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: Did you do you do? Headfirst? Okay?

681
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 11: This is like a hands and knees crawl.

682
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 12: Uh, I'm talking into the just to myself here.

683
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 4: Sorry.

684
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 11: It's like a long tunnel, kind of like a you know,

685
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 11: almost like what a drug gunner would use or something

686
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 11: like a drug grounder tunnel.

687
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: Oh, this is.

688
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 6: It's cool.

689
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 7: Oh yeah that opened up.

690
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 11: Yeah you do you have a camera on you on

691
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 11: my phone.

692
00:36:59,160 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 4: Yeah.

693
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 12: We had a tunnel that was pretty long, like I

694
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 12: don't know fifty how long you think that tunnel was, Garrett,

695
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 12: I'm bad at that one hundred and fifty two hundred

696
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 12: feet tunnel. And now it has opened up to a

697
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 12: room that you could fit a small like a like

698
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 12: a business jet. You could fit a business jet in

699
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 12: here if you could get it down here. It's not flat,

700
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 12: but uh, it's you know, very rocky, and there's some

701
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 12: kind of like rock in the center of it. But

702
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 12: it is big and open for sure. You just walk

703
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 12: this kind of ridge here. Yeah, okay, does look pretty vertical.

704
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

705
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, that goes down forty fifty feet or something.

706
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 5: Yeah.

707
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: Very Now Dave has to turn around.

708
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think just as bad as far as

709
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go. My shoulders are starting to bug me.

710
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: Garrett and Paul press On.

711
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 11: Hey, since it's the two of us, if somebody, well,

712
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 11: you know what to do, but if you fall, should

713
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 11: I what immediately?

714
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 6: Go to the surface or.

715
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: Okay, forty five minutes later, Hello.

716
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 11: Yep, we're coming out here in this a couple of minutes.

717
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: Paul and Garrett made it one thousand feet into the

718
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: cave one hundred feet below the surface. Apex is much

719
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: bigger than we anticipated, including a chamber maybe.

720
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 10: Thirty wide, twenty high and eighty long, so enough to

721
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 10: fit like a like a bus in but not not flat,

722
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 10: but a decent size. You know, it's a regularly shape,

723
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 10: so it's a little hard to give estimates, but.

724
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: Wow, that's huge compared to what you would imagine.

725
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 7: Wow.

726
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 10: And yeah, the registers in this room and it says welcome.

727
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 1: The last time anyone signed the register a scrap of

728
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: paper coiled into a piece of PVC pipe was February eighth,

729
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, ten months earlier.

730
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 10: By judging at the register people quit their times in

731
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 10: and sign up time when the register people would spend

732
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 10: anywhere from two to six hours beyond that point. So

733
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 10: I'm going to guess that's just the start of the cave.

734
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 10: It's pretty sizable.

735
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: Neither Garrett nor Paul saw any sign of fissure, or

736
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: anyone for that matter, save for the register. By now

737
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: it's late afternoon, the sun sinks, the forest dims. We

738
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 1: navigate south through the woods to Redmond Cave. At first

739
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 1: we can't find it. We reach a barbed wire fence,

740
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: a boundary between the Tanto National Forest and the Ford

741
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 1: Apache Indian Reservation, and turn around as twilight soaks the forest. Okay,

742
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: this looks a little bit, a little bit more inviting.

743
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: I spot something fifty feet from the cave. There's what

744
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: looks to be a headstone. It's very old, so I mean,

745
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: it's not modern, it's not recent. We try to read

746
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: its weathered letters. J Redman, I don't know who Jay

747
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: Redmond is, but this is his cave and this is

748
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: his grave. Something says not haunted like entering a little

749
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: cave near a grave in the woods. Cave near the grave, Okay,

750
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: John focus, lingering is a luxury we can't afford. It's

751
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: not the sun that matters. We are, after all, descending

752
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 1: into darkness with headlamps and flashlights. But we have call

753
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: out times. If our loved ones and producers don't hear

754
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: from us, they're supposed to call the police. So chop chop.

755
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 6: It's five fifteen pm. The sun's going down and I'm

756
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 6: standing in the entrance of a cave.

757
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: Belt to crawl underground on my knees through a little

758
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: gate into the cave. Redman is immediately more inviting than Apex,

759
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: but I still have to slither in.

760
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is very different.

761
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: I squeeze through a metal gate.

762
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 4: This is not bad.

763
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 11: Yeah, it was.

764
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 12: Actually it has an opening at the top.

765
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 7: See, so.

766
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 1: Paul, it's up to you.

767
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 6: You don't.

768
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: Don't feel obligated. Okay, well it's it's not too bad.

769
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: I'm okay with it. But it's a little tight. You'll

770
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: have to get on your stomach. It's not nearly as

771
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: bad as the other one though, and then it's walking

772
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:11,479
Speaker 1: past that, so it's pretty easy.

773
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:11,959
Speaker 4: Over here.

774
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 6: Wow, this is so cool.

775
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: Redman opens up into walkable tunnels maybe seven feet tall,

776
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: four feet wide.

777
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 6: Okay, this is I feel better. This is cozy, all right.

778
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 3: So the reason I'm stopped here, and what I want

779
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 3: to show you guys is you had asked me a

780
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 3: questions on how caves form, and this particular cave is

781
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 3: actually a really good example. So look in the ceiling

782
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: right here. You see this crack yep, you'll see that

783
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 3: it goes all the way down.

784
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 6: Uh huh.

785
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 3: So that was the original crack that this cave formed along,

786
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 3: So water was seeping through here, so it actually started

787
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 3: to dissolve the rock at this location.

788
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: Onward this spider.

789
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 4: There's some crickets, right, Okay.

790
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 6: So there's spiders.

791
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: I signed the register again. Garrett is ahead of us.

792
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: He finds the sump, the flooded passage at the back

793
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: of the cave. Only problem, it's down a forty foot drop. Garrett,

794
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: you know that somebody died in the sump.

795
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, somebody drowned in the sump. Yeah, in two thousand and.

796
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: One, four hundred feet in. We pause briefly.

797
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 12: Look like a cozy place to hide out as a fugitive.

798
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 6: Honestly, yes, I like this cave way more than the

799
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 6: other one.

800
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: Sadly, though, this is the end. For us to proceed,

801
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: we'd need climbing gear and more experience time to go.

802
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: On the way out, Dave points.

803
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 6: To that Scott. Okay, so this is probably one of

804
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 6: the roosts. Okay, I'm calling out.

805
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: We exit into night, a black forest, hike tower cars,

806
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: drive to Paysin in our west, check into hotels, grab dinner.

807
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 1: The next morning we return back to the woods. It's

808
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: sunny and cool. We've been sent good weather. Praise be.

809
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: Garrett shows us the light our scan he took of

810
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: Redman last night. After we exited. He scurried around like

811
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: a hobbit, crouched over with fancy equipment, building a three

812
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: D model. It's colorful and fascinating.

813
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 10: Here's that final bend that it does, ninety degrees. And

814
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 10: then we stopped up here where it started dropping down

815
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 10: into the lower level, pointed it over it so you

816
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 10: can see the floor of that, and then from there

817
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 10: the sump would be like right here, it takes another

818
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 10: ninety degree bend.

819
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: Today is all about technology. We want to use a

820
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: drone mounted thermal camera to scan for hidden caves in

821
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,760
Speaker 1: cold weather. Cave entrances vent insulated air to the surface,

822
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: contrasting visually on screens with the land around them. Sadly,

823
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: though it's too warm, we're limited to an eye's only search.

824
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: As Garrett pilot's the drone. We're going to the four

825
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: runner spot with the metal detector and we're going to

826
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: work our way out and see what we find towards

827
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: the road and then also towards the cave. A metal

828
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: detector might seem basic, but I think it's the most

829
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: promising technology we have. To my knowledge, no one ever

830
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: metal detected the fore Runner spot. We could find keys,

831
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: or a pistol, or a pot of gold.

832
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:08,720
Speaker 6: How deep can it detect?

833
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 4: This one? About eighteen inches?

834
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: By golly, miss Molly, we got a hit.

835
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 4: It was detecting my steel.

836
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: To dude, we find any gold who lays ownership?

837
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 4: Uh for service? It's like, I was like, man, this

838
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 4: is all over the place.

839
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: We went like six inches and we're getting results.

840
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 4: Not keys. Got it?

841
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: Bullet point two right where the driver's side door of

842
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: the fore Runner would have been.

843
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: That's a fired bullet. It's hit something. It's mushroomed out.

844
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 6: Wow, okay, it's very interesting for that to be right where.

845
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 8: Yeah.

846
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 3: He's like, hey, let's put it in the sun so

847
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 3: you can see it literally the.

848
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 4: Place his foot would have.

849
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 6: Stepped getting out of the car.

850
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: Don't get too excited.

851
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 4: Looks like another bullet. Case it's exploded. Bbbbe another bullet.

852
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 1: Here, here a bullet. They're a bullet everywhere a bullet.

853
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: This is the forest, after all, this is America, after all. Basically,

854
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: what I've learned is all the forests land, and it's

855
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: just littered with bullets everywhere everywhere. Yeah, even areas that

856
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: look pristine, you know, looking at the surface, there's there's

857
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 1: not garbage or trash or litter here.

858
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 6: It's pretty prisceine and clean.

859
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 11: Well, it's not like this is random location, though we

860
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 11: do there is.

861
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 12: There is a fire, There is a cave, especially the cave,

862
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 12: because there's like.

863
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 6: A million other campsites.

864
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: But well, I think the point is more like in

865
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: your proscene, natural area that looks clean right below the

866
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: surface is littered with bullets everywhere. We find so many

867
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: twenty two's.

868
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 6: We're jaded at this point.

869
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: Bullets, bullets everywhere, and not a clue. Paul went from

870
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 1: like videotape this flags it's a clue to like gang.

871
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 3: Oh it sounds a little better, a little bigger, a

872
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:23,959
Speaker 3: little better.

873
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 6: Any idea I'm going to ask you every time, but

874
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 6: any idea?

875
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 4: Eight?

876
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 6: Really, So that's the gun that's missing.

877
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: First someone was the twenty two, But the gun for

878
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: sure that we know was missing of his was a

879
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: thirty eight.

880
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 11: Very it was like, no, got it, what do you

881
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 11: got here?

882
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 4: Thirty eight?

883
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 3: So it's been fired because it's not in its casing,

884
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 3: or it's been taken out of its casing.

885
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 4: It did not hit anything before it fell to earth.

886
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 6: So this was fired and just fell.

887
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 4: Yep, didn't hit anything any good shape.

888
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, So that one you could get forensics

889
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 3: off of this, So that the rifle, the rifling inside

890
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 3: a barrel, you could get info off that one.

891
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: We find it in the drywash, the seasonal creek bed,

892
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: not far from the fore runner spot. What are the

893
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: odds it's Robert Fisher's zero point zero zero one percent.

894
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 1: Regardless on the off chances of forensic value, I'm happy

895
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: to turn it over to law enforcement. Moving on, we

896
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,959
Speaker 1: find rusty cans, barbed wire, a wrench only fifteen feet

897
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: from the fore runner spot, and of course bullets.

898
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 12: Which is no longer of interest to me, and dead inside.

899
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 11: And a bolt, which is somehow the more interesting thing

900
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 11: these days.

901
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 1: A bolt bolt, an exhilarating bolt. Make it stop, please

902
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: no more. We were finding so many twenty two casings

903
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: and what was the other one, Dave seven casings that

904
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: we actually got tired of finding them with our limited

905
00:47:58,480 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: time and resources.

906
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 6: Moved on.

907
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: As Dave and the Pauls poke around, I wander out

908
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: far into the woods alone. This is the real joy,

909
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: to disconnect and adventure A soundtrack of wind Peace. A

910
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: few hours later, Dave and Garrett have to leave, but

911
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 1: first one final beep under a bush next to where

912
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: the Forerunner was parked, And now they really have to go.

913
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: They have to drive back to Albuquerque. Dave gives us

914
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: a crowbar. This is our final hope. So we clawed

915
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: the dirt maniacally with the crowbar and our bare hands.

916
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: Sorry about life, Dig dig dig, find nothing, continue diggig big.

917
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: A judgment called a splend to stop diggig.

918
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 6: I'm burnout and exhausted. I just guess they have to

919
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 6: stop digging.

920
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: Next time. I'm missing in Arizona. It's interesting to think

921
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: that he could have another family. He absolutely could and

922
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: probably does. To be honest, you can reach us by

923
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: phone at one eight three three new tips that's one

924
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,760
Speaker 1: eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven,

925
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 1: by email at tips at iHeartMedia dot com, tips at

926
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com, online at neon thirty three dot com,

927
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: or on Twitter at John wallzac j O n w A. L. Czak.

928
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: Paul Decan is our executive producer. Chris Brown is our

929
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: supervising producer, Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemperlin

930
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: is our researcher, Ben Bowen is a consulting producer, and

931
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: I'm Your Host and executive producer John Waalzac Special thanks

932
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: to Wolfgamefink. Additional production support provided by Ben Hackett. Cover

933
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: art by Pam Peacock, Neon thirty three. Logo designed by

934
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: Derek Rudy. Our intro song is Utopia by ruby Cube.

935
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: Please download the first two seasons of our show, Missing

936
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven, and if

937
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 1: you're so inclined, give us a five star rating. Missing

938
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,919
Speaker 1: in Arizona is a co production of iHeartRadio and Neon

939
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: thirty three