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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's being Josh and for this week's select,

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Speaker 1: I've chosen our Cleveland Torso Murders episode from May twenty one.

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Speaker 1: Once in a while we do some true crime episodes,

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Speaker 1: and in my opinion, this might be our best one ever.

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Speaker 1: It's a semi little known series of gruesome killings that

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Speaker 1: became an engrossing story with a lot to keep up with.

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Speaker 1: I should probably mention there's a lot of frank talk

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Speaker 1: about some really grizzly stuff in here, so be four warned.

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Speaker 1: Hope you enjoy it as much as one can enjoy

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Speaker 1: this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck

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Speaker 3: Jerry's out there.

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Speaker 1: Somewhere with a magnifying glass and toothpick. We don't know

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Speaker 1: what the toothpick's for, but this is stuff you should know.

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Speaker 4: Yes, content warning episode, everybody. This is one of our

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Speaker 4: it's about to say rare, they're fairly rare, but one

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Speaker 4: of our true crime episodes that is very grizzly, gruesome, gruesome,

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Speaker 4: but took place in the nineteen thirties, so there's something

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Speaker 4: about old and gruesome. That makes it a little more

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Speaker 4: palatable for me totally.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why, but you're absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Right time, I guess you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he heals all wounds, wounds the Torso murders.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it does well.

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Speaker 4: Heals all wounds except for some of the things that

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Speaker 4: happened in the Torso murders, because you can't come back

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Speaker 4: from that.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty crazy. You were familiar with the Torso murders already, right, I.

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Speaker 4: Had heard of these, and the more I read about them,

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Speaker 4: the more I was shocked that there wasn't a good

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Speaker 4: period movie about this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: But if you haven't heard of the Torso Killer, that's fine,

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Speaker 1: You're You're definitely not alone. A lot of people haven't,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of surprising because these are they are

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Speaker 1: unsolved murders. There were a lot of them, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they took place in the background of a city that

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Speaker 1: was like driven into a frenzy by this ghastly serial

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Speaker 1: murderer who was who continued their murders despite this extraordinarily large,

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Speaker 1: you know, manhunt to try to find them, an unsuccessful

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Speaker 1: man hunt still to this day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it has all the makings of a

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Speaker 2: good movie.

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Speaker 4: It's got a and we'll reveal who this person is.

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Speaker 4: We'll hang on to it for a second. But maybe

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Speaker 4: got a famous investigator.

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Speaker 1: Oh oh sorry, yes, and he definitely was the famous investigator.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh you thought I met who the murderer was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You've got some false starts.

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Speaker 4: You've got some Cohen Brothers esque whimsy with the dog discovery.

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Speaker 3: I thought you'd like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did like that.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, it has all the makings of a great

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Speaker 4: movie in a cool period setting, which was depression era

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Speaker 4: nineteen thirties Cleveland, Ohio.

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Speaker 1: Which is almost indistinguishable from current day twenty twenty one Cleveland.

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Speaker 2: Oh come on, we love Hey.

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Speaker 1: Man, I'm from Toledo. I can totally back in Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: That's tame Detroit.

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Speaker 3: I was. That's my birthright.

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Speaker 2: That is your birthright.

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Speaker 4: So let's go back to September of nineteen thirty four,

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Speaker 4: when a woman's torso is washed up on the shore

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Speaker 4: of Lake Erie. Her legs are amputated below the knee.

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Speaker 4: There is no head, which is why I said torso.

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Speaker 3: And it's a suspicious way to find a body.

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Speaker 4: The very suspicious way. She was never identified. They called

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Speaker 4: her the Lady of the Lake, and this was just

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Speaker 4: sort of the beginnings. Nothing was put together at this

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Speaker 4: point because it would be two years before any other

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Speaker 4: murders took place, and that they finally sort of put

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Speaker 4: together that the Lady of the Lake was perhaps Victim zero,

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Speaker 4: really victim one, but they called her Victim zero of

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Speaker 4: who had become known as the Torso murderer or the

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Speaker 4: Mad Butcher of Kingsbury.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Kingsbury Run.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, it'd be about two years before

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Speaker 1: they started to connect the dots. But in that time

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Speaker 1: between the time the Lady of the Lake was found

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Speaker 1: about a year past and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: two more bodies were found. And now all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: because two bodies were found together, this really started to

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Speaker 1: capture people's attention to the Lady of the Lake. It

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Speaker 1: was a weird thing. It was a terrible thing to find,

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Speaker 1: but it was singular. This was, you know, like by definition,

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Speaker 1: not singular, finding two bodies at once that were both dismembered,

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Speaker 1: and they were found in the area of Kingsbury Run,

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Speaker 1: which is where the Mad Butcher takes his name.

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Speaker 4: That's right, they were both men. In this case, they

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Speaker 4: were they were castrated. They were also decapitated, which would

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Speaker 4: become sort of a signature. The decapitation and any kind

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Speaker 4: of dismembering really would become the signature.

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Speaker 2: Hallmark of this murderer.

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Speaker 4: And it's interesting in that victim, one of these two men,

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Speaker 4: was actually one of the only ones that they got

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Speaker 4: a fairly positive id for, actually got some fingerprints and

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Speaker 4: it matched a man named Edward Andrassy. And he was

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Speaker 4: sort of a petty thief that had you know, the

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Speaker 4: police had brought in before.

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Speaker 2: So he was believed to be gay.

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Speaker 4: And this if he was, you know, which all accounts

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Speaker 4: should say that he was. This was at a time

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Speaker 4: when in the nineteen thirties, certainly it was still illegal,

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Speaker 4: and it was also listed as a mental disorder in

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Speaker 4: the what's it called, not the DMVM, DSM.

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Speaker 1: The DMV. The DMV didn't look too highly on it either.

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Speaker 2: No, that's right.

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Speaker 4: So he, i think was one of only two that

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Speaker 4: was ever even positively identified of what would end up

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Speaker 4: being probably thirteen, maybe twelve murders.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and again these guys were found together, not together,

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Speaker 1: like they were within you know, a very short distance

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Speaker 1: of one another, so that they were found virtually at

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Speaker 1: the same time. And whenever you find, you know, a

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Speaker 1: body missing its head, that that is a tension grabbing

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Speaker 1: And when you find two bodies both missing their heads,

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Speaker 1: that really starts to get the presses juices running. And

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Speaker 1: like we said, these were found around Kingsbury Run, and

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Speaker 1: Kingsbury Run is basically like an old river bed that

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Speaker 1: cuts through I believe the west side of Cleveland. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry that, I think the east side of Cleveland

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Speaker 1: down to the Coyohoga River, and it was basically like

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Speaker 1: the place where all of the oil companies and all

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Speaker 1: of the heavy industry along the river and along the

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Speaker 1: lake would dump all of their waste. The city put

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Speaker 1: a sewer in there. It was just meant to be

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Speaker 1: kind of like a wasteland, like a literal wasteland, and

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Speaker 1: it kind of stayed that way until the depression hit.

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Speaker 1: And by the time the depression hit, things were so

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Speaker 1: bad that people were looking to basically live wherever they

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Speaker 1: could for free, and they started taking up residents in

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Speaker 1: Kingsbury Run. So by the time the Kingsbury Run murders,

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Speaker 1: the Torso murders started, this was like a full fledged,

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Speaker 1: full swing chanty town. Basically a Great Depression era Hoover

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Speaker 1: Town is what they call.

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Speaker 4: Them, Yeah, exactly, So it was a gram scene down

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Speaker 4: there anyway, certainly the fringes of society. During the course

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Speaker 4: of the investigation, there were accusations of the press that

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Speaker 4: they weren't working as hard as they needed to because

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Speaker 4: these were people on the fringes of society and sort

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Speaker 4: of forgotten about. And I think one of the other

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Speaker 4: people identified was a few months later, in January nineteen

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Speaker 4: thirty six, when they found the body of Flow Pilillo.

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Speaker 4: Florence Pililo was a waitress and bartender and a sex

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Speaker 4: worker who was discovered once again dismembered, wrapped a newspaper

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Speaker 4: and a couple of bushel baskets, and then about a

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Speaker 4: week and a half later found other parts of her body.

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Speaker 2: So she was sort of.

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Speaker 4: Found in it's very grizzly, but found in pieces over

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Speaker 4: the course of a week and a half in different places.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, so far as far as anybody can tell,

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Speaker 1: we're up to three and possibly four victims if you

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Speaker 1: include the Lady of the Lake. But it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: the following June, about six months after Flow Palillo was

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Speaker 1: discovered because again, remember these people were they actually lived

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Speaker 1: on the fringe of society. So just like today, just

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Speaker 1: like Robert Picton, the pig farmer from Vancouver, so many

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Speaker 1: other serial killers find their victims in like the just

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Speaker 1: I guess, the lowest stations of society because they're the

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Speaker 1: most vulnerable, they have the least protection. And that's kind

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Speaker 1: of what was going on. That's why it took so

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Speaker 1: many victims for the press to finally be like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: there's something really going on here. And finally in June,

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Speaker 1: I believe of nineteen thirty six, victim number four as

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Speaker 1: far as canonical victims go, but possibly the fifth victim

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Speaker 1: was discovered. His head was found first by two boys

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Speaker 1: who were playing hooky and fishing along the Cya Hoga.

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Speaker 1: Can imagine that man, No, I can't, because they found

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Speaker 1: like a bald up pair of trousers and I guess

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Speaker 1: grabbed them and found that there's something in it. When

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Speaker 1: they opened it up, it was the head of a

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Speaker 1: man in his twenties. But I've never been identified like

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Speaker 1: so many of these victims.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and not to trivialize any of this, but again,

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Speaker 4: that stuff is very ripe for movie making.

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Speaker 3: Totally.

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Speaker 1: This whole thing is and it really is surprising that

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Speaker 1: no one's done this.

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Speaker 4: Yet, Like you wouldn't you know, you would write something

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Speaker 4: like that in a screenplay, and this actually happened.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't see I haven't read it. But there's

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Speaker 1: a graphic novel and maybe it's a series called Torso

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Speaker 1: that is about all this, and I'm guessing that would

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Speaker 1: probably be a pretty good basis for the movie.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so Victim four, they were making great to find

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Speaker 4: out who this man was. So they actually the police

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Speaker 4: circulated a photo of his face and made a death mask.

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Speaker 4: If you don't know what a death mask is, I

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Speaker 4: encourage you to go listen to our episode on death masks.

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Speaker 4: It's basically what you would think. It's a recreation of

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Speaker 4: this man's head. And they put this thing along with

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Speaker 4: a tattoo map. He had tattoos all over himself, an

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Speaker 4: illustrated map of his tattoos in this death mask on

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Speaker 4: display at the Great Lakes Exposition of nineteen thirty six,

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Speaker 4: where you know, one hundred thousand people could walk. I

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Speaker 4: mean it was a smart idea in one way, because

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Speaker 4: they had a you know, could blast it out in

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Speaker 4: the best way possible to try and identify who this

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Speaker 4: person was. But it was also again like something from

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Speaker 4: a movie. These people going to an exposition all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden are walking behy these this tattoo map and

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Speaker 4: the death mask of this man. And I'm sure the

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Speaker 4: question came up, like, well, why is it? Where's the

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Speaker 4: rest of his place? Why didn't they just show pictures

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Speaker 4: of the tattoos.

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Speaker 1: They're like, stop asking questions, do you know the guy

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Speaker 1: or not? No, go get some ice cream, exactly, move along.

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Speaker 1: Nothing to see here. But yeah, despite that, you know,

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Speaker 1: very public search for an identification, he was never still

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Speaker 1: has never been identified, and his tattoos were really he

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Speaker 1: had people's names tattooed on him. He had a cartoon

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Speaker 1: character named Jigs tattooed on him. So this guy, you know,

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Speaker 1: you could see his face, they had all those tattoos.

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Speaker 3: And he still has never been identified.

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Speaker 1: But his discovery and I think the very public, like

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Speaker 1: the cops circulated a photo of his head on a

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Speaker 1: gurney in the morgue at first before they made the

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Speaker 1: death mass, among other police agencies around the area, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure to the press as well, so it was

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Speaker 1: kind of public even though It was kind of quiet,

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Speaker 1: but it got the press's attention, and the press started

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Speaker 1: to connect the dots, and all of a sudden, we

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Speaker 1: now were connecting the Lady of the Lake to this

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Speaker 1: latest guy and all the other ones as well, and

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Speaker 1: it became very clear that there was what they call

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Speaker 1: the Mad Butcher of Kingsbury run on the loose in Cleveland,

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Speaker 1: and no one had any idea who it was or

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Speaker 1: when or if they were ever going to stop.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think there were seven more victims over the next

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Speaker 4: two years. Victim eight were skeletal remains, but they did

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Speaker 4: think they identified this person as Rose Wallace, woman in

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Speaker 4: her forties. She had gone missing about a year earlier,

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Speaker 4: and there was quicklime used to decompose this body, and

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Speaker 4: this one, interestingly had evidence of more of a clumsy dismemberment.

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Speaker 4: To me, this one stands out a little bit is

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Speaker 4: one that possibly might not be a victim and could

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Speaker 4: have been misattributed to the Mad Butcher. That's just my

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Speaker 4: personal feeling. I don't know if anyone else is saying this,

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Speaker 4: but it's the one that stands out to me as

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Speaker 4: being slightly different.

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Speaker 3: Same as same to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the killer clearly lacked a dismemberment plan in that case, is.

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Speaker 2: That a ban Yeah? Are they good?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? They were really good. They were maybe mathrock.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think they were at the very least they

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Speaker 1: were alternative.

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Speaker 4: Victim nine was had his heart removed, Victim ten had

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Speaker 4: morphine in her system. And I think they're not quite

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Speaker 4: sure how they all died. I think at one point

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Speaker 4: they thought most of them died by the decapitation, but

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Speaker 4: some were found with their blood completely drained from their body.

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Speaker 4: Like I said, this, one woman had morphine in her system,

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Speaker 4: which could make sense. We'll get to something else later

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Speaker 4: on of a potential victim that never happened, where drugs

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Speaker 4: might have been a factor.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it's it's sort of all.

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Speaker 4: You know, there were men, there were women, there were

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Speaker 4: black people, there were white people. There wasn't any real

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Speaker 4: rhyme or reason, it seemed like, aside from the fact

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Speaker 4: that they were probably culled from this area of Ohio.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and the fact that you know, the first two

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Speaker 1: men were emasculated, that there were women involved too, that

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Speaker 1: somebody's heart had been ripped out like there was there

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Speaker 1: was clearly a sexual element of the whole thing, which

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Speaker 1: made the idea that they were men and woman victims

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Speaker 1: very confounding. You just don't normally see that in a

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Speaker 1: sex killer. You see one or the other, and it's

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Speaker 1: usually the sex that the person is oriented to are

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Speaker 1: the victims. And then you know, just to kind of

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Speaker 1: to cap that point off, the killer left victims eleven

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Speaker 1: and twelve within a few yards of one another on

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Speaker 1: a dump like a trash dump, and one was a woman,

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Speaker 1: Victim eleven was a woman, and victim twelve was a man.

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Speaker 2: Should we take a break?

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Speaker 1: We should because Cleveland doesn't know it at the time,

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Speaker 1: but those of us looking through the looking backward through

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Speaker 1: history can tell you that this was the last canonical

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Speaker 1: victims in August of nineteen thirty eight. So the killer,

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Speaker 1: as far as anybody knows, is done.

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Speaker 4: That's right, and most of the grizzly stuff is out

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Speaker 4: of the way, and we'll be back to reveal the

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Speaker 4: famous investigator right after this. How's that for a tease?

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Speaker 3: It was I can't take it anymore, Chuck, please please?

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Speaker 3: Who is it?

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Speaker 2: It's my favorite thing when you play koy.

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Speaker 4: It was mister Elliott Ness that's very famous for being

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Speaker 4: the head of the untouchables for putting al Capone behind bars.

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Speaker 3: Good friend of Sean Connery's.

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Speaker 2: Very good friend.

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Speaker 3: Oh that was great.

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Speaker 2: That wasn't very good, because bring your.

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Speaker 3: Knife to a gunfight? You bring a gun, you dummy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that was the line. If you go

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Speaker 2: on to do Connery, well you got to have an

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Speaker 2: esh in there, right, But there.

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Speaker 3: Was no didn't I I thought that was I thought

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Speaker 3: I nailed it.

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Speaker 2: There aren't no ssays in that sentence.

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Speaker 3: Right, they're implied. And I would have done that had

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Speaker 3: there been.

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Speaker 2: Don't bring a knife to a gun dunch. How's that right?

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Speaker 3: You bring a gun? You're John Mary?

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Speaker 2: All right? Back to the serious stuff. Elliottness was the

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Speaker 2: after that work in what was that? Chicago? I think, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was.

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Speaker 4: He became the alcohol investigator in charge of the alcohol

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Speaker 4: tax unit for Northern Ohio in August of thirty four,

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Speaker 4: and then the Republican mayoral canon that Harold Burton, who

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Speaker 4: had gone to win, said you know what, Ness, you're

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Speaker 4: a famous guy.

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Speaker 2: I like the cut of your jib. Let me make you.

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Speaker 4: In December nineteen thirty five, the safety director for Cleveland,

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Speaker 4: and let me nudge you towards this outstanding case that

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Speaker 4: we have.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, when he was hired, the case wasn't quite

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Speaker 1: clear that it was a big old case. He came

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Speaker 1: in just after, like a couple of months after victims

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Speaker 1: one and two were found, and just a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks before flow Polillo was found, so it wasn't evident

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Speaker 1: that there was a serial murderer on the loose. But

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Speaker 1: that also means that Elliott Ness came in right at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of this thing. So he was the public

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Speaker 1: safety director for it. He became the face of the

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Speaker 1: frustrated police effort to capture the Torso killer.

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Speaker 4: Right although the lead investigator, what was that guy's name,

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Speaker 4: Peter Marillo.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. He was.

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Speaker 4: I don't know about obsess, but it became sort of

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Speaker 4: his main focus of work was to tirelessly find out

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Speaker 4: who this murderer was. And I assume that it's weird

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Speaker 4: because I really don't know what a safety director was.

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Speaker 2: I don't think is that even still a thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there is a public safety director position still.

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Speaker 1: They basically are in charge of the police department, the

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Speaker 1: fire department.

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Speaker 3: Okay, all that stuff. They're the head of that.

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Speaker 1: They're like they probably the liaison between the mayor and

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Speaker 1: those services.

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Speaker 2: But not the Guardian angels because they do what they

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Speaker 2: want to do.

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Speaker 3: Hey man, they're staying on their road too.

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Speaker 4: The coroner, Aj Peerce of the case, I think he

346
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Speaker 4: was the first corner on the first case, said you

347
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Speaker 4: know what we need to do. We need to get together.

348
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Speaker 4: We need to have a little summit and start sharing information.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to call it the Torso Clinic, which was interesting.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if he did or the press did.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, either way, because the press was very much involved

352
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Speaker 4: in this whole obviously. But at this conference is where

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Speaker 4: he first put forward a profile, which was this is

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Speaker 4: someone who would not stand out in Kingsbury one, someone

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Speaker 4: who knew the area could blend in somebody.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: We think it's a man who is a powerful man

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Speaker 4: because they need to be able to you know, it

359
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,920
Speaker 4: takes a lot of work to dismember a body and

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Speaker 4: to haul these bodies around and drop them off in

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Speaker 4: different places. And we think he also might have some

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Speaker 4: anatomical knowledge, not saying that he's necessarily a doctor or

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Speaker 4: a surgeon, kind of like the Jack the Ripper thing,

364
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Speaker 4: but this person clearly clearly knows their way around a

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Speaker 4: knife and a scalpel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, if you really closely examine a

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Speaker 1: body and like look at the places where you know

368
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Speaker 1: the body was separated with the knife, you can find

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Speaker 1: hesitancy marks, you can find the hacking. There's all sorts

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Speaker 1: of clues and telltale signs. And apparently this guy had

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Speaker 1: a lot of confidence and had a lot of skill

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Speaker 1: or knowledge about anatomy. So, like you said, maybe not

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Speaker 1: a doctor, but at the very least a very skilled

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Speaker 1: butcher who had studied human anatomy before. But eventually they

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Speaker 1: finally were like, this is probably some sort of doctor.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think they eventually learned that most of

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Speaker 4: the victims died within a few day a few days

378
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Speaker 4: of being discovered, and most were moved, except for victim five,

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Speaker 4: where they found a blood bath. You know that was

380
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Speaker 4: this didn't happen at the other crime scenes. It was

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Speaker 4: virtually no blood to be found. In fact, I think

382
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Speaker 4: one was completely drained of blood anywhere.

383
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Speaker 2: Oh really, so that yeah.

384
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Speaker 4: I mean that takes I don't know if that happened

385
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Speaker 4: naturally just because of the nature of dismemberment, or if

386
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Speaker 4: it was a purposeful thing. But only one body was

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Speaker 4: found kind of clearly murdered there.

388
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Speaker 1: Right, So yeah, I think the fact that the blood

389
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Speaker 1: wasn't on the scene and it wasn't in the body

390
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Speaker 1: any longer means they had go somewhere. So that the

391
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Speaker 1: fact that they were dismembered and the and packaged, I mean,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of them are found, you know, the

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Speaker 1: one I unidentified tattooed man, his head was wrapped in trousers,

394
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Speaker 1: but other peoples were wrapped in newspaper or brown paper

395
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Speaker 1: like they were meat. Someone was put in a makeshift box.

396
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Speaker 1: There was there was a lot of time dedicated to

397
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Speaker 1: the dismemberment of these bodies, and that that leaves a

398
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Speaker 1: lot of evidence, and you need a place where you're

399
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Speaker 1: not going to be interrupted, and yeah, that's not easy

400
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 1: to come by. So that became a really like big

401
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: point is you know, we were pretty sure that this

402
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 1: person is snatching victims from the from the Kingsbury Run area,

403
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: but where are they committing these acts? And they tried

404
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: to find that place as much as they tried to

405
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Speaker 1: find the killer.

406
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that would be a big clue if

407
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Speaker 4: they had some murder room dexter style.

408
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 3: Sure, which is a giveaway every time.

409
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Speaker 2: That's coming back. By the way, I don't know if

410
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 2: you ever watched Dexter.

411
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 3: What do you mean it's coming back.

412
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: They're bringing Dexter back man.

413
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 3: With the original like Michael C. Hall.

414
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 4: No, yes, they are, indeed, and I mixed feelings because

415
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 4: we love that show for a long time.

416
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 3: But it is the end.

417
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 2: It is one of the shark jump of your shows

418
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: of all time.

419
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 3: It's crazy. It's like the shark itself jumped up.

420
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, It's insane.

421
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 3: It's amazing.

422
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I love Michael C.

423
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 4: Hall though we're just now finishing Six feet Under again,

424
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 4: so yeah, I'm always happy to see him again.

425
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,440
Speaker 2: But I'll give it again. You see Cold in July,

426
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: m No, what is that.

427
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: It's a little bit like a straw Dogs type story,

428
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,879
Speaker 1: but he's like having to battle Don Johnson. It's just

429
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 1: really like, if you want I know, it's weird casting,

430
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: but if you want to just experience like a constant,

431
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: you know, mid to low level dread for two hours, like,

432
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and watch that's well done in that respect, or.

433
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 2: Watch The Lighthouse. It's probably better.

434
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 3: God, it's so good.

435
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: Let's just stop talking about this and talking about the

436
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 1: lighthouse for the rest of the time.

437
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: All Right.

438
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 4: So Peter Morillo, who, like we said, was a lead detective,

439
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 4: he's sort of obsessed with this thing. He starts not

440
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 4: only focusing on this land down by the river, but

441
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 4: I didn't mean that, but that's what it was. But

442
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 4: he started focusing on the rail roads and these these hobos.

443
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 2: The railroads. Oh, okay, you know where trains run on sure.

444
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just never heard it pronounce the way you do,

445
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: the first railroad, the rail roads.

446
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: It was hilarious.

447
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: I got to lighten this up somehow. We're talking about

448
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: this membered tourist.

449
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 2: I know exactly.

450
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: So he started looking in these box cars and I

451
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 4: don't I mean his hobo an offensive word.

452
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 2: Can you still say that?

453
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: Don't think so. I think it's a point of pride,

454
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: a term of pride.

455
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 4: Of for people who still ride the rails. Okay, So

456
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 4: he's still out there doing his thing. At this press conference,

457
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 4: Elliottness ends up holding a meeting with the head of

458
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 4: Scientific Investigation Bureau. His name was David Cowells and an

459
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 4: editor of the Cleveland Press. So this is a big deal.

460
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 4: They're actually getting the press involved at this point.

461
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: Right, But secretly. This wasn't a press conference. This is

462
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: like a secret meeting.

463
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 4: Oh no, no, not a press conference at all. This was

464
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 4: very much in secret. But he's involving the press, and

465
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 4: they said, here's what we're going to do. Ness says,

466
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 4: let's you go and pick out eight tough guys that

467
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 4: can go undercover, that know a lot of bad guys

468
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 4: in Cleveland and have all those connections. We'll give them

469
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 4: the police support they need, and we'll fund them. How

470
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 4: did they fund them with the press is money? What

471
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 4: does that even mean?

472
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: I don't know.

473
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: I think that like maybe the owners of the newspapers

474
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: chipped in, like the wealthy owners chipped in quietly interest

475
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: stuff off of the books.

476
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 3: That's my of what this is.

477
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 2: And you ever chipped in the mostcut to break the story,

478
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: I wonder.

479
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: But well no, I think at the same time, it

480
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: was a technique for bringing the press into the fold

481
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: so that there weren't outsiders drumming up trouble for.

482
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 3: The cops anymore.

483
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: Because, gotcha, the Cleveland press really made the They didn't

484
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: make the police look bad. They pointed out just how

485
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: badly the police were handling this or ineffectively, which is

486
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: not to say that the police were not trying really

487
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: really hard. Supposedly. I saw a figure of ten thousand

488
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: suspects were interviewed over four years during the course of

489
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: this investigation. They just couldn't find the guy. They could

490
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 1: not find this killer, and the press kind of almost

491
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: gleefully kept pointing that out.

492
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 4: Right, So this is in a way attempt to assuage

493
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 4: them and bring them into the inner circle.

494
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 3: A bit, right, That was my impression.

495
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, So the police are, They've got these

496
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 4: undercover guys working. They're scene, They're checking cars randomly at

497
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 4: all hours. They're canvassing lawe andromats and places where you

498
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 4: wash your clothes, so you know, if there are people

499
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 4: like trying to get bloodstains out of something, they're kind

500
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 4: of doing everything they can at this point. And this

501
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 4: is where the Coen Brothers sort of moment comes in,

502
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 4: which is in San Dusky a dog and Sandusky is

503
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 4: about now, it's about an hour or ten minutes away

504
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 4: by car. I don't know what it would have been

505
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 4: back then, but probably less than two hours, I would say,

506
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 4: even in an old timey car. A dog shows up

507
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 4: in Sandusky with a human leg in its mouth. I

508
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 4: want to say that literally happened in a Cohen Brothers movie.

509
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 4: It might have just been a bone of a body,

510
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 4: but I can't think of which one it might be.

511
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: Will someone will write in and tell us, But.

512
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 3: It sounds like a Barton Fink kind of thing.

513
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 2: It is, but it's not.

514
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 4: Or I might be thinking of the kids who riped

515
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 4: the two pay off the guy in Miller's Crossing in

516
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 4: that away.

517
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: I don't remember that part, although I remember one of

518
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: the neighbors lost his two pay in the verbs and

519
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: they thought it was evidently murder.

520
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 4: There's definitely a movie, it might not have been Coen

521
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 4: Brothers where dog shows up with the body part in

522
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 4: its mouth.

523
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 2: Probably more than one movie.

524
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 4: But the dog shows up in its mouth and Morello

525
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 4: goes to Sandusky and it turns out that the leg

526
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 4: was actually surgically removed during during a real surgery, not

527
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 4: a not a serial killer surgery, and just didn't get

528
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 4: disposed of right, ended up in the lake, ended up

529
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 4: in the dog's mouth, right.

530
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: But the police were so hyped up, Oh, I'm sure

531
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: England at the time that they traveled Sandusky. Tod chase

532
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: down this lead, which, like all the other ones went

533
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: absolutely nowhere, and so there was there was again, like

534
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: just a tremendous amount of public pressure, including something you

535
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier too, a lot of allegations and accusations that

536
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 1: the police weren't doing enough because these people were not wealthy,

537
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: were not well thought of, they were, you know.

538
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 3: Very poor.

539
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: The poorest of the poor during the Great Depression were

540
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: the ones who were having who were suffering this the

541
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: serial killer. And so there was a tremendous amount of pressure.

542
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: And I think my impression is is that that pressure

543
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: is one of the I guess the thing that drove

544
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: Elliott Ness to do something really terrible. Because the killer

545
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: was picking from the shanty towns of Kingsbury Run. Elliot

546
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: Nes got it in his head that if you did

547
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: away with Kingsbury Run, you'd do away with the killings. Yeah,

548
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: and so we raided the homeless camps at Kingsbury Run

549
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: and roused it everybody and then ordered the place burn

550
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: to the ground.

551
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

552
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 4: And I'm sure he thought this was a great idea

553
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 4: at the time, but he really didn't think it through

554
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 4: because the people of Cleveland did not take kindly to that.

555
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 4: They hated him for what he did and this was

556
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 4: during the depression and everyone was struggling basically, or not everyone,

557
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 4: but most people were struggling at this point unemployment rate

558
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 4: of twenty percent in Cleveland, and so the idea of

559
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 4: this big shot Chicago g man comeing in and basically

560
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 4: running these homeless people out of their only option and

561
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 4: burning it to the ground was not a good look

562
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 4: at all. However, there were no more murders after.

563
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: That, I know it.

564
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: Strangely, it seemed to have worked, and it depends. We'll

565
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: talk more about. You know, a lot of different views

566
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: of whether the murder stopped or not, but as far

567
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: as canonical victims go, yeah, this he burned the place

568
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: to the ground two days after victims eleven and twelve

569
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: were found, and after that there were no more victims.

570
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: So it didn't solve the murders by any stretch of

571
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: the imagination, but it seemed to have put an end

572
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: to him.

573
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 4: Weirdly, Yeah, I think before we take a break, we

574
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 4: should mention there was one and get into the who

575
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 4: we think is probably the real suspect. There was one

576
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 4: suspect in Cuyahoga County that the sheriff brought in name.

577
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 4: He's a brick layer named Frank dole Ziel, who did confess.

578
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 4: He was brought in for the murder of Flow Palillo,

579
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 4: originally because he'd lived with her for a little while,

580
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 4: but supposedly he knew Rose Wallace and Edward Andressy as well.

581
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 4: But then they looked into it, and by all accounts

582
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 4: that confession was not just induced, but in the days

583
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 4: where you would literally beat a victim into confessing.

584
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the murder him in his cell after he

585
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: recanted his confession.

586
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: So was he murdered.

587
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, he hung himself, but he hung himself from

588
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: a hook that was shorter than he was, which I mean,

589
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: I guess if you really really want to die, you might,

590
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: you could do that, you could overcome the urge to

591
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: stand up this inclination towards self harm. I guess you'd

592
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: put it. But his friends at the time seemed to

593
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: be like, no, he was murdered. So it's at the

594
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: very least his confession was beaten out of him, and

595
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: no serious scholar of the crime believes that Frank Doziel

596
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: was the killer.

597
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 3: He didn't have.

598
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: Any there was no evidence whatsoever any kind of surgical knowledge.

599
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 3: There was like a lot of boxes. He just didn't check.

600
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: It was basically, he knew Flow, and he may have

601
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: known Edward and Rossi, and he may have known Rose Wallace,

602
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: and the sheriff basically ran him in very publicly.

603
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 4: Right, all right, So let's take that break and then

604
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 4: we'll come back and talk a little bit more about

605
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 4: the investigation and who people now believe committed.

606
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: These horrible murders.

607
00:31:30,160 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 4: Right after this, all right, So Elliott Ness has run

608
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 4: everyone out of the Kingsbury run camps. Did not go

609
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 4: over well. He then says, here's what we'll do. Let's

610
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 4: skirt the warrant rules so we don't have to require warrants,

611
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: and let's get together. Since I'm the safety director and

612
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 4: I control the fire department too, let's go around and

613
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 4: start searching for quote, fire code violations end quote. Basically,

614
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 4: so they don't have to get any kind of warrants

615
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 4: and they can just basically go into people's.

616
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: Houses and.

617
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 4: Just at will and search and do whatever they want

618
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 4: to under the guise of searching for fire code violations.

619
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: He was desperate, He was very desperate.

620
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: And again they were looking not just for the killer,

621
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: but really, more than anything, they were looking for that

622
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: grizzly workshop, as the Cleveland plain Dealer had put it

623
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: a place where he was draining the victims of their

624
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: blood and dismembering their bodies. They didn't turn anything up,

625
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: but it really kind of goes to show like just

626
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: what lengths elliot Ness, who was considered like this squeaky

627
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: clean law man was willing to go to this is

628
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: extraordinarily unconstitutional and underhanded, and he went. He went to

629
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: that degree and well beyond it turned out actually too

630
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: very much.

631
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 4: And I think we're at the point now where we

632
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 4: can talk about this mystery person, right.

633
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is this is why I said.

634
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: He went way beyond you know, unlawful search of homes.

635
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,239
Speaker 1: He actually engaged in what amounts to kidnapping of a

636
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: private citizen who he thought was the killer.

637
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he kept it very secret. He even used

638
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 4: a pseudonym for this person. He called this person this

639
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 4: gentleman gay lord Sundheim, pretty good name, the good hotel

640
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 4: check in name.

641
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

642
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 4: And privately he you know, word gets around a little

643
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 4: bit what's going on. But privately he would describe this

644
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 4: person as an alcoholic, maybe bisexual, a doctor who came

645
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 4: from a wealthy family and who had a relative in

646
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 4: Congress who was protecting this person and took this man

647
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 4: under the dark of night to a hotel room in Cleveland,

648
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 4: held there without charging him for two weeks, where they

649
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 4: interrogated this person.

650
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: Yes, and apparently the guy who this gay lord Sundheim

651
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: was in the middle of a bender when he was

652
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 1: picked up, and he had he was so profoundly drunk

653
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: that it took him three days to become sober again.

654
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: I don't buy that, I know, but when he did,

655
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: I know. But you got to add those two. Sure,

656
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: thank you for keeping it, keeping it even keel though.

657
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 4: I mean I've had nights they were a little rough,

658
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 4: and you're always okay the next day.

659
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about. It's so weird,

660
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: Like alcohol effects us so differently. Man, I can have

661
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: like a drink and a half these days, and I'm

662
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: like hating life the next time.

663
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 4: No, no, I'm not talking about a hangover. But you're not

664
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 4: still drunk the next day. Oh gotch or in two

665
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 4: days or three days.

666
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: I think that's what they were saying, is that this

667
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: guy was he had like a hangover stupor by That

668
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 1: was my impression, not that he was still just flying high.

669
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: But that hating it all.

670
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: Right, that should.

671
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 1: But regardless, they kept him whether he was sober as

672
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: a judge or you know, drunk as a skunk when

673
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: they picked him up. They held him in this hotel

674
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: room without charge and outside of the legal system for

675
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: two weeks and interrogated him from up to eight hours

676
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: a day.

677
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think he did it, so who cares.

678
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: That's exactly how Elliott Ness was approaching this. And again

679
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: everybody thought he was this squeaky clean lawman and he's

680
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: engaged in kidnapping. But the thing is, he brought in

681
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: the guy who was one of the early inventors of

682
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: the polygraph. He invented the Keeler polygraph, and it was

683
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: called that because his name was Leonard Keeler, and he

684
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: I think he brought him from Chicago and Leonard key

685
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: Tailor administered a couple of different polygraph tests to this

686
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: Gaylord Sondheim and said, if this isn't your man, I

687
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: might as well throw my machine out the window if

688
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: I say anything else, because that guy, that's the guy.

689
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: It's definitely the guy. You gotta take that with a

690
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: grain of salt, because especially today polygraphs are just total

691
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: junk science, but it certainly confirmed Nessa's suspicions that much more.

692
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 4: At the time, I think that polygraph Back then there

693
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 4: wasn't even machine Keeler would just sit there and look

694
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 4: for a beat of sweat to break out on the

695
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 4: forehead and then punch the.

696
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 2: Guy if it did.

697
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 3: That's right exactly.

698
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 4: So the case was never solved. Nessa's reputation obviously took

699
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 4: a big hit. He eventually got out of Cleveland after

700
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 4: a drunk driving hit and run accident that he was

701
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 4: involved with and tried to cover up.

702
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: So he left in great shame. But back to this

703
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: gaylord Sunheim.

704
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 4: Later on, many years later, there were crime investigators and

705
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 4: writers who put two and two together and basically identified

706
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 4: and in fact, in one case, crime writer Marilyn Bardsley

707
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 4: came out and said, yeah, this is who this person was.

708
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: It was a former World War.

709
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 4: One Army medic who was discharged for mental instability following

710
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 4: head trauma, which was big warning lights going off. And

711
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 4: he was an alcoholic, another big warning light. And his

712
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 4: name was Francis Edward Sweeney, who also happens to have

713
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 4: a relative in Congress.

714
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: Right A guy named Representative Martin Sweeney, who was a

715
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: huge critic of the Burton administration of which elliot and

716
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: Ness was a major part, And he was just the

717
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: kind of guy who was a political opponent to the

718
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: degree that I'm sure Elliotts thought if he tried to

719
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: arrest Clarence or Francis Sweeney, he would he would he

720
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: would be obstructed, you know, from up on high by

721
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: this congress person. Whether he would have or not, I

722
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: don't know. I saw some references to the idea that

723
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: Martin Sweeney was well aware that elliot Ness was looking

724
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: at his cousin for this and was already getting in

725
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: the way, But I only saw that on one place,

726
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: so I'm not sure if that's the case or not.

727
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: Either way, his presence in his connection to Francis Sweeney

728
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: was enough that Elliott Ness never charged Francis Sweeney, despite

729
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: apparently going to his grave believing that doctor Francis Edward

730
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: Sweeney was the Cleveland Torso murderer.

731
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 4: Have you seen a picture of the guy, dude, he

732
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: looks like the definition of a Torsow murderer.

733
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: If you, if you like, seriously, you have to be

734
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: careful with that stuff. Can you ever end up a juror,

735
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: you can't be like you look like a killer, but

736
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: this guy looks like.

737
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: A Torso murderer. You're exactly right.

738
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: The quick sidebar. Not sure if I ever mentioned it

739
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: on this show.

740
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 4: I know I've talked about on a movie Crush, But

741
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 4: I want to recommend this great, great documentary And forgive

742
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 4: me if I'm repeating myself here, but it's called Crazy

743
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 4: not Insane. It's an HB documentary about this doctor, doctor

744
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 4: Dorothy Ott no Lewis, who basically spent her life trying

745
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 4: to understand serial killers and one of the main she

746
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 4: was kind of one of the first people to really

747
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 4: try and understand what's actually going on, and she put

748
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 4: together I think like three very common common commonalities among

749
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 4: serial killers. But one of them is is head trauma.

750
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 4: And that's why this really stands out of me about

751
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 4: Francis Edward Sweeney, was that he was discharged from the

752
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 4: army because of head trauma leading to mental instability. It's

753
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 4: a commonality in most serial killers, is some sort of

754
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: head trauma, especially when you're younger.

755
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: Wow, that's interesting. I did not know that.

756
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the I may have thought I talked about

757
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 4: on this, but it was the uh who was the

758
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 4: guy in la that that also just had a great

759
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 4: docuseries on the night Stalker Richard Ramirez. He suffered multiple

760
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 4: head traumas when he was younger as well. So I

761
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 4: think it's it's I can't remember the three when it's

762
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 4: head trauma, some sort of physical and even sexual abuse

763
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 4: as a child, and then there was like one more

764
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 4: thing and those are like that's just a recipe for

765
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 4: ending up some sort of sociopath or serial killer.

766
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: I think the third one is disappointing birthday presence.

767
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:15,959
Speaker 2: Yeah.

768
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 4: Maybe so it's a warned it's a great you'd really

769
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 4: love It's a really good documentary.

770
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll check that out for sure. It sounds like

771
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: it's totally at my alley. I'm actually a dog that

772
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: I've not heard of it.

773
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 2: Don't be a dog.

774
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 3: I'm a little dog.

775
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: All right, come back.

776
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: So, like you said, Marilyn Bardsley confirmed from one of

777
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: the investigators that Francis Sweeney was gay Lord Sondheim. But

778
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: that does not mean that Francis Sweeney was the Torso murderer. True,

779
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: although again, like you were saying, if you look at

780
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: a picture of Francis Sweeney.

781
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 3: That's totally the Torso murderer.

782
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 4: Well, and other stuff, you know, the head trauma, the

783
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 4: medical training. He was a surgeon in residence at Saint

784
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 4: Alexis Hospital. His career deteriorated because of his drink.

785
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: Right around the time the first murderer victims started showing

786
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: up too.

787
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, he also had a deal apparently with a local

788
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 4: mortuary where they would give him bodies to practice surgery on,

789
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 4: which would explain maybe the kill room or the dismemberment room.

790
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 4: He would have a place to go and dispose of

791
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 4: these bodies without you know, there being a big blood trail,

792
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:24,919
Speaker 4: you know.

793
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, this is a place where it wouldn't

794
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: seem weird that somebody was decapitating a body or draining

795
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: the body of all of its blood. Like that's exactly

796
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: the kind of place. And that didn't turn up until

797
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: years later, And it was thanks to a guy named

798
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: James Badall who's written some books on it, on the

799
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 1: Torso murderers, and he interviewed one of the early investigators

800
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 1: and found out that he had privileges at that funeral home.

801
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 3: And sorry to put two and two together.

802
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was one a couple of other things. He

803
00:41:55,719 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 4: did send taunting letters to Elliott nests for years. Some

804
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 4: one of them was signed F. E. Sweeney paranoidal Nemesis.

805
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 4: But was this after he had been kidnapped by Ness?

806
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: Yes, so he knew Ness by this time. And he

807
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: also didn't say like I did it, you didn't catch

808
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: me anything like that. I get the impression it was

809
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: more like, you didn't catch the guy. You're terrible at this,

810
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: everybody hates you. But still taunting stuff. But yes, this

811
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: would have been after he was kidnapped, because this was

812
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: up into like the forties.

813
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.

814
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 4: And then I think to me, one of the biggest

815
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 4: red flags pointing in the direction of Sweeney is I

816
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 4: mentioned a near victim earlier in the episode. This was

817
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 4: a transient. His name was Emil Fronick, and he was

818
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 4: living in Cleveland in thirty four and one day he

819
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 4: was lured into a doctor's office on the second floor

820
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 4: along Broadway Avenue and the doctor said, here, I'll give

821
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 4: you some shoes and a meal if you come up here.

822
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 4: Fronic goes up, eats a little bit of the meal,

823
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 4: starts to feel lightheaded, and bolts and makes it to

824
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 4: a train car and basically passes out for three days.

825
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 4: And then later on I think in nineteen thirty eight,

826
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 4: was being interviewed after the cops here about this.

827
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: Old Morello goes to pick him up.

828
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 4: And they narrow down the area to fifty to fifty

829
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 4: fifth Streets along Broadway, where Sweeney had a doctor's office.

830
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, he couldn't specifically say that was the place where

831
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: it happened, right, And that author James Biddall says that

832
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: he thinks he came in the back way rather than

833
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: the front way where they were showing him. But he

834
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: did say that's he had an office right there, right

835
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 1: around that area. So and he was there at the time.

836
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: So I mean, that's some pretty serious, circumstantial stuff.

837
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: I think.

838
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 3: So.

839
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: But the thing is, there's no smoking gun, there's no

840
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: anything that says definitively, and we probably will never have

841
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: anything definitively it says it's Francis Sweeney. So we've kind

842
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: of reached this point, this plateau where it's like you

843
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: just basically choose society either you know it's Francis Sweeney

844
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: or it wasn't. And some people who say no, I

845
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: don't think it was Francis Sweeney make some pretty good cases.

846
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: There were other similar murders in the area starting in

847
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: the twenties and going into the fifties, that that really

848
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: bore a lot of resemblance to the Torso murders. And

849
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: then other people say, Okay, I feel the opposite of that,

850
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: where there's like, I don't think Rose Wallace was one

851
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: of the victims. I think there were multiple killers doing

852
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: similarish stuff, maybe copycats even, and that it wasn't all

853
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: just one person. There's there's, there is, and there's probably

854
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: always going to be a lot of competing theories about what,

855
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: you know, who is responsible.

856
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

857
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 4: The one theory that it wasn't him that I don't buy.

858
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 4: Did you say where he was living in Sandusky?

859
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: No?

860
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 3: Huh?

861
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 4: All right, so here's the deal. He Francis Sweeney was

862
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 4: a apparently enrolled or checked into the Soldiers and Sailors

863
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 4: Home in Sandusky, which I guess is an old like

864
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 4: a veteran's home.

865
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, I think yes, So.

866
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: That's what it seems like.

867
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 4: So he was checked in there, and one of the

868
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 4: reasons that people say he didn't do it was because

869
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 4: he was checked in in this place in Sandusky, like

870
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 4: a couple hours away, and I just don't buy that.

871
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 4: They later came out and said, you know, they could

872
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 4: come and go as they please. He could easily have

873
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 4: if he didn't want to get caught be committing these

874
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 4: murders in Cleveland and then going back to Sandusky as.

875
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: Well, right, Yeah, because he was there voluntarily, so he

876
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: would not have been watched or monitored, or they wouldn't

877
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: have kept tabs on him. And when they figured this out,

878
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 1: it was years later, so no one would have been

879
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: able to recall where he was or wasn't on a

880
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: certain day.

881
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, I think it's Sweeney, I think, and

882
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 2: not because of his picture.

883
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: Too, But there's so there were other murders in the

884
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: area that you know, it could have still been Sweeney too.

885
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: Some people can the Black Dollia murder to it because

886
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: there was a taunting note that the cops got in

887
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight that said the cops can rest easy

888
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: because the killers moved to sunny California. But if you

889
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 1: look at the Black Dollia murder, there's really not a

890
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: lot of resemblance between the two. The mos are really

891
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: rather different, so that's probably not the case agreed. Well,

892
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: if you want to know more about the Cleveland Torso murders,

893
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: there's a whole rabbit hole on the internet and in books,

894
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 1: including one by James Biddall and another by Marilyn Bardsley,

895
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: that you can follow. And if you do, good luck

896
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: with that. Since I said good luck with that, it's

897
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 1: time for listener mail.

898
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 4: I'm going to call this. We did not help out this, gentleman. Okay, hey, guys,

899
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 4: love the podcast. I've been listening for the past several years.

900
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 4: I've almost gotten through. The whole library has some left

901
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: from twenty eighteen.

902
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: Apparently.

903
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 4: I work as a musical instrument repair technician a local

904
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 4: university and independently in Greensboro.

905
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 2: North Carolina.

906
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 4: So I usually listened while I work on repatting clarinet's

907
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 4: and cleaning Tubaits nice cool job. Anyway, I was listening

908
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 4: to your show this evening on Korean fan death.

909
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: Remember that we talked about it. I don't think it

910
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 2: was all about that, but it was.

911
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 3: A short stuff about it.

912
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: Was it?

913
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 3: Mm hmm?

914
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: Okay, I remember that being like a top ten or something.

915
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 4: Anyway, I immediately thought, finally a way that I can

916
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 4: find some legit reason for getting rid of the fan

917
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 4: in our room. My fiance Abby loves having a fan

918
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 4: and that noise when you go to sleep. It's something

919
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 4: I can deal with, but honestly I do.

920
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 2: Not care for it.

921
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 4: So when I finally got home, I told Abbi, hey,

922
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: we got a serious episode.

923
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: Stuff you should know we should listen to.

924
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 4: I started the episode without pre screening and trusted you

925
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 4: guys would pull through for me. Needless to say, an

926
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 4: interesting episode, but I did not get the confirmation bias

927
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 4: I was looking for. Instead, we had a good laugh

928
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 4: and a great evening, looking forward to getting the book,

929
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 4: which you guys are best, and looking forward to many more.

930
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 4: And that is from John Goodman.

931
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: Holy cow, John Goodman, we love you and the Coen

932
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: Brothers stuff.

933
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: His name is John Goodman. I'm gonna plug his business.

934
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 2: Goodman custom would wins.

935
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 4: If you're in the Greensboro, North Carolina area and you

936
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 4: need that clarinet repadded, go to John Goodman.

937
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,919
Speaker 1: For sure, And even if you're not, it's probably worth

938
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: the drive, right.

939
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 2: I mean, where else are you gonna do it? Charlotte?

940
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, come on, Connick note, Well thanks a lot,

941
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: John Goodman. We appreciate that. Sorry we couldn't help you.

942
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: Output at least you enjoyed the episode and ultimately in

943
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 1: that what counts.

944
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: Yes.

945
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: If you want to get in touch with this, like

946
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: John Goodman did, you can send us an email too.

947
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

948
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

949
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

950
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.