1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: As media. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's James here and I have an update 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 2: on Primrose and her daughter Kim. Primrose, if you do 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 2: not remember, was one of the people I met the 5 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: Darien Gap, whose story we shared in our dairy En podcasts, 6 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and we later updated people that she has arrived in 7 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 2: the United States. 8 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: Have an update. 9 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: From her lawyer here. I'm going to read that out now. 10 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: Primrose and Kim were detained by Ice approximately two weeks 11 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: ago and sent to a quote family detention center in Texas. Yes, 12 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: that's right. It's country put single mothers and children seeking 13 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: refuge in prisons due to a settlement agreement that's still 14 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: in place involving miners only being able to be detained 15 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: for twenty days. Primrose and Kim may have an opportunity 16 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 2: to be released. They are, however, in need of housing funds. 17 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: The lawyer has been raising funds for their legal fees, 18 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: but we'll gladly allocate some of these funds so that 19 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: she can at least have a place to stay for 20 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: the rest of July. The rest we will figure out later, 21 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 2: one day at a time. Thank you for your general Ross, 22 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: and Primose and Kim thank you as well. Obviously, I 23 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 2: would add that I thank you. It means so well 24 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: to me when people support these things, and you know, 25 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: we use our little podcast to help people. The address 26 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 2: to donate is gofund dot me slash d d A 27 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: zero to CC seven. That will of course also be 28 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 2: in the notes for this podcast. You can just click 29 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: it on your phone. Give a few bucks. It's vital 30 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 2: that she gets some money to make rents so she 31 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: can stay in the same place as the address that 32 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: she's given to the court. If you'd like to contribute, 33 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: that would mean a lot to all of us. 34 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: Thank you. Welcome to it could appen hear a podcast 35 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: about organizing. I am your host, Mia Wong, and in 36 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: a moment we'll be continuing our episode about how to 37 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: run a meeting, which is one of the fundamental tools 38 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: of building democracy and free societies. Here we go, okay, 39 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: so other roles. So we talked about that. That that 40 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: was a long digression about the concept of stack taker, 41 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: which is at a very simple level, you write the 42 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: names down, you call the names in order. Yep. Yeah, 43 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna move on to some of the other ones. 44 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: Those are like the two I don't know if most 45 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: important is the right word Funnily enough, stack takers, not 46 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: the one. I thought that digression was going to happen 47 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: on that was. I thought that was gonna be the 48 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: last one we're gonna get to. 49 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 3: But oh no, taker, Oh. 50 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is vibes checkers. 51 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 3: Oh shit, the vibes checker. Okay, but okay, okay, please continue. 52 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: Okay, let's do timekeeper. Timekeeper extremely important person you want 53 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: someone with like a watch or something, and the timekeeper's 54 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: job is to give people reminders of like how much 55 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: time things are taking. So you know, a thing you 56 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: can do is like, okay, so we know we have 57 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: this much time allocated for something, right, so we have 58 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: twenty minutes to talk about this, Okay, so like ten 59 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: minutes and you go, we have ten minutes left, we 60 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: have five minutes left, we have like fifteen minutes left. Yeah, 61 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: this is really important. And at the end of it, 62 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: the time keeper's job is to go like, hey, this 63 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: is our allotted time. Do we want to keep talking 64 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: about this and use more time or do we want 65 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: to move on? Yeah, And that's a really important role. 66 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: It's also kind of why you want to generally have 67 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: like an idea of how long you want to talk 68 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: about something in the agenda. It's also worth noting that 69 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,119 Speaker 1: like this is all guidelines, right, Like these are all. 70 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 3: MIA's guidelines of order. Is that what you're calling this? 71 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: Oh god, no, we'll take it. We'll take you on 72 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: more digression. Digression, which is that the anarchy symbol, the 73 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: A with the circle around it is from a per 74 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: Dawn phrase that's the circle is actually an o because 75 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: the original thing was anarchy. The original saying is anarchy 76 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: is the mother of order. Yeah, and that's that's where 77 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: that comes from. So I was gonna make it like 78 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: MEA's VIA's like procedure disorder whatever joke, but it's like, no, no, no, 79 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: this is actually like anarchy is order, baby. 80 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: I believe in an organized society. I just believe in 81 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: an organically organized society. That is from the to use 82 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: the Zapatista phrase from the bottom and the left yep okay. 83 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: So that that's timekeeper the note taker. Sometimes you need 84 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: to decide whether you want notes of your meeting. 85 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it depends on how crime you are. 86 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. I hear this all the time from people making 87 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: jokes about the scene for the wire that I've never 88 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: seen the Wire, but everyone's making jokes as the scene 89 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: for the Wire, Right, guy, guys, are you taking notes 90 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: of their criminal continracy? So okay, are you going to 91 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: have a note taker? And then secondly like, okay, the 92 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: note taker takes notes on what's being talked about. I 93 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: actually this is also mea going into a little bit 94 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: more advanced stuff. I actually like the practice of kind 95 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: of rotating this throughout the meeting because the problem with 96 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: being the note taker. So if you're the timekeeper, right, 97 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: you can be involved in the conversation. Stack taker is 98 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: also hard to But the thing about the note taker 99 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: and it's you know, if you get good enough at this, 100 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: you can rotate all of these roles during the meeting 101 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: so that everyone has a chance to participate. So you 102 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: don't just have a group of people who perpetually can't 103 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: be in the meeting. And so note taker is a 104 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: thing that you can pretty easily just like pass to 105 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: someone else and be like, hey, you're not the note taker, 106 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: so the person who's being the note taker can like say. 107 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 3: Things yeah, although okay, so there's two weird funny things 108 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: about this one. Sometimes people who tend not to want 109 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 3: to talk much in a meeting, but also maybe have 110 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 3: an attention span where they would prefer to be doing 111 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 3: something at all times, prefer to be note taker. 112 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 113 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: But famously, the International Workingmen's Association or whatever, the the 114 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 3: First International was a organization of a lot of different 115 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 3: stripes of leftists. And someone went to someone's friend's apartment. 116 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 3: This anarchists went to this anarchist friend's apartment and was like, Hey, 117 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 3: I want to invite my friend to this meeting. And 118 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: this guy answers the door and his name's Carl Marx 119 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 3: and he's like, oh, well so and says not here, 120 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 3: and he's like, all right, well you can come too. 121 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: So an anarchist invites Marx to the International. I don't 122 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 3: have my notes in front of me, don't at me. 123 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 3: But then Marx goes and he becomes the note taker, 124 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 3: and by means of that takes a minority position which 125 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 3: within the group and makes it the major already position 126 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 3: by controlling the way that a lot of the media 127 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 3: and expression and stuff around this was because Marx was 128 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 3: a good writer. Yeah, and for better or worse, I 129 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: have my opinion about whether it's for better or worse, 130 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 3: and so there's a power within note taker that actually 131 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 3: is a reason to rotate this task. 132 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 133 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 3: On the other hand, if you're like not worried about that, 134 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 3: you can just have a person who's like, I just 135 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 3: really want to be the one who takes notes. It 136 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 3: really depends on everything's going to be contextual. I just 137 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,559 Speaker 3: wanted to tell that story about Marx. 138 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: No, like this is this is the story of how 139 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: Marx became Marx by taking a note taking job and 140 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: then becoming the person who would write the declarations for 141 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: the organization. Yeah, we should note like this is also 142 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: kind of how Stalin took power was by being the 143 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: person in the back of the room. He didn't say 144 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: anything and keeping track of what everyone was doing and saying, 145 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: and you being able to manipulate like the inner workings 146 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,239 Speaker 1: of these sort of parliamentary procedures that the Bolsheviks were using. 147 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: That's what the Robert not of the rules of order, 148 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 3: but of the behind the bassards was saying about, Oh, 149 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 3: the Cambodia man, the horror Bolga man and killed everyone 150 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: pullpop pot. It was that he he was the quiet 151 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 3: guy at the back. 152 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: Yep, same kind of guy can be extremely dangerous. The 153 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: guy who says everything all the time can be dangerous. 154 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: Quiet person also can be very dangerous. 155 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, just never trust anyone, that's the answer. 156 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: Wait, no, hold on, hopefully we're not producing pulepot in 157 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: these meetings. Okay. So the last like official role that 158 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: I want to talk about, and there's a lot, there's 159 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: like a million other roles that people use. I want 160 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: to talk about the vibes checker. So this is the 161 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: one that's kind of not obvious from like the name, 162 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: but the vibes checker is someone who actually has a 163 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,239 Speaker 1: really really important role, and your role is to figure 164 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: out like, is everyone in the group okay, does this 165 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: meeting feel okay? 166 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 3: Yeah? 167 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: And is just something we need to do about it? 168 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: And some of this is like okay, everyone is clearly 169 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: really tired, let's go get lunch. And that's like a 170 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: pretty easy sort of vibes checker thing. But then also 171 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: like I don't know, this is partially a facilitation job, 172 00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: Like I don't know, if someone says something racist in 173 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: me in a bunch of people are uncomfortable, it's like 174 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: now you're suddenly glad you have the person whose job 175 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: it is to be like, hey, what the fuck? Like 176 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: and that's also that's like obviously, like that's a blatant 177 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: enough thing that everyone can be like hold on, hold on, 178 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: like don't like say a slur or whatever. But like, 179 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, the vibe checker's job is if there's a 180 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: lot of people who are uncomfortable with something, or if 181 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: something like they're kind of there or something is going wrong, 182 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: or if people are checked out, or if like stuff's happening. 183 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: Sometimes this is behind the scene things. Sometimes this is 184 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: like explicit, like you make it, you bring it to 185 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: the group to be like, hey, this is okay, we 186 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: need to address this. Yeah kind of thing. I don't know. 187 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: It's a hard role to sort of like explain it's fuzzy. 188 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, but it's it's in the name. How 189 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 3: are the vibes? And vibe is a fuzzy word, and 190 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 3: you know it's a the word that people are going 191 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: to interpret in different ways. 192 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and like I as a very sort of materialist, 193 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: godless atheist, I it's like, okay, this is how people 194 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: are feeling. 195 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: Right. 196 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: People also take this in sort of when new agy directions. 197 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: People take it and like but like you know, like 198 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: the important thing about this is right you can feel 199 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: in a meeting when it's really tense or when things 200 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: are like just weird. Everything feels off. Everyone is like 201 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: pissed off or tired or like just grossed out or 202 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: like you know, and that's this person's job. This is 203 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: why I'm putting it in here because it's it's one 204 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: of these roles that like, idally, I guess this person 205 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: doesn't do anything for a whole meeting, but they're just 206 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: they're sort of watching it. I mean, like it's it 207 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: can't be good at the interviewing, but it's especially important 208 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: if something is going wrong in ways the group isn't addressing. 209 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 3: Totally this, it is good to have someone who's ready 210 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: to step up and say, yeah, this is this is 211 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: what's going on. Can I make a pitch for another role? 212 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't. 213 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 3: Have a name for this role. The very first activist 214 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 3: meeting I went to when the world was young, during 215 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: the alt globalization movement. I went into a meeting for 216 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: New York City indie media and I had no idea 217 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 3: what was happening, but it was a public, open meeting, 218 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 3: and I was a young activist anarchist or whatever, and 219 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 3: I went to this thing and someone sat next to me, 220 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 3: knew that I was new, and sat next to me 221 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 3: and explained what the fuck was happening. 222 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: That's a good role. 223 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 3: And I don't know if I would have become an 224 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 3: activist if that person hadn't done that, because I went 225 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: in and it was the middle of a contentious meeting 226 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 3: about people talking about some stuff that was pretty important, 227 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: and I had no idea what was happening, and someone 228 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 3: explained it to me. I think it is very important 229 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 3: to have someone know who is new and help them 230 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 3: feel comfortable. You could call it like an usher if 231 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: I was going to have a word, But it's like, 232 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 3: because I'm really into this idea that our movements don't 233 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 3: need gatekeepers, we need ushers. We need people to help 234 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 3: people figure out find their seats and figure out how 235 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 3: to plug in onboarding. But then the other thing I 236 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: want to say is that with roles, the larger and 237 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 3: more normal a meeting, the more likely you need these 238 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: to be formalized roles. But I also think that these 239 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 3: as generalized skills can be dispersed through Like I think 240 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 3: that a lot of groups, especially if they're kind of 241 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 3: comfortable with each other, you maybe have a rotating facilitator. 242 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 3: You maybe have a stack taker and you maybe are like, 243 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 3: who's taking notes right now? But stuff like timekeeper and 244 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 3: vibes check might be a thing that everyone feels empowered 245 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: to do. I think that understanding these as roles is 246 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 3: different than saying at the top of the meeting, this 247 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: is the way it is done. You must assign these things. 248 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 3: It is always contextual based on the meeting. 249 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, the range inside of the meeting structure of like 250 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: how formal and informal it is changes a lot. And 251 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: that yeah, that changes you know, that changes the roles, 252 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: That changes how all of this stuff works totally. And 253 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: that's one of the most important things about this is 254 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: like being flexible, because the point of a meeting is 255 00:11:54,600 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: not everyone followed the exact parliamentary procedures. The point of 256 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: a meeting is we did the thing we came there 257 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: to do, or sometimes we did we did a different thing, right, 258 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: But it's like we all did something together and that 259 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: thing happened, but we figured out how to make that 260 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: thing happen. And that's the actual important part. The content 261 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: of the meeting is what's important. Not all of the 262 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: structure is to enable the content. It's not the other 263 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: way around it totally, right, totally and like, yeah, I 264 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: don't know, like if you have a timekeeper and someone 265 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: else they're doing time stuff too, right, Like that's a 266 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: significantly better result. Then. Yeah, we just kept talking, So. 267 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 3: Okay, can I make one more pitch about the thing 268 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 3: that's important at a meeting? 269 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? 270 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 3: Food. I think that it's not always going to be 271 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 3: appropriate in every specific situation, and there's a lot of 272 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 3: things around dietary restrictions and all of these things, but 273 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 3: making the meeting feel like a place that is worth 274 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 3: going to and the thing that like, I think food 275 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 3: is basically like hosting and good hospitality and these sort 276 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 3: of again invisibilized. Yeah, feminine labor things goes a really 277 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 3: long way towards making everyone feel comfortable. It also helps 278 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 3: people's attention spans and blood sugar, like whether every meeting's 279 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 3: a pot luck or whether everyone just brings snacks, or 280 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 3: whether it's at someone's house and they're like, fucking I'm hosting, 281 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 3: I'm gonna make a bunch of food and you know 282 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 3: whatever it is. 283 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been theorizing this for a while that like 284 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: we need because like obviously a lot of this technology 285 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: has been worked out already, but also we have so 286 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: much further to go in order to like be able 287 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: to make decisions together in a free society, And like, 288 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: I think we need to just have an initiative of, 289 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: like how do we make meetings fucking rip. One of 290 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: my ideas has always been, like, you have a meeting 291 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: that's just like the standing barbecue meeting that happens like 292 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: every like it's like the endless meeting, and it's like, okay, 293 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: you have it at like yeah, this time, and there's 294 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: just like a barbecue and everyone one does barbecue stuff. 295 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 3: And yes, a standing thing where if you want to 296 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: come and like and then okay, just to keep talking 297 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 3: about some of the stuff childcare. Childcare, you think when 298 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 3: you mentioned at the beginning being like making sure that 299 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 3: the space is accessible to everyone. And there's a lot 300 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 3: of stuff that gets forgotten about. In particular, I would 301 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: say that single parents are often forgotten about. And I 302 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: think that having or parents in general, or children in 303 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: general are often forgotten about. And I think that having 304 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 3: a plan in place for accessibility of all kinds of 305 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 3: different people often includes childcare. 306 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: I used to do this. Oh that's cool, Yeah, that's 307 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: like one of the things that I did for some meetings, 308 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: and like, yeah, there are like meetings that happened. They're 309 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: like tens meetings that happened because like people stayed and 310 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: played with everyone's kids. It was a good time. 311 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 3: And yeah, there's also this idea where sometimes meetings people 312 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 3: can come in and out of the society that I 313 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 3: want to live in has neighborhood assemblies that then move 314 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 3: up to larger structures and make decisions right and in 315 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 3: those there's also this thing where it's like you don't 316 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: always have to go to meetings. There's a thing that 317 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 3: about democracy that people don't quite always get, which is 318 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: that sometimes the most beautiful thing we can do for 319 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 3: each other is give our agency freely to other people 320 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 3: to make decisions for us that we trust. Working groups 321 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: are actually a good, big part of this where I'm like, 322 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: I don't actually want to have a say in every 323 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 3: single decision that affects me. I want to be able 324 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: to have a say in every single decision that affects me. Anyway, 325 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: I'm again going kind of meta on this. 326 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: Sorry, no, no, well this is important, right, you know. 327 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: And also like doing the childcare was part of that 328 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: because like, yeah, it meant like, you know, I was 329 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: kind of I was like trusting my people in the 330 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: group to like do the meeting without me while I 331 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: was just sort of like taking care of like just 332 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: taking care of kids. And that was a really beautiful 333 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: thing and it worked really well. It fucking ripped. 334 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can build multi generational movements, which are 335 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: the only movements that accomplish That's not true. Sudden movements 336 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: also accomplish things. But when I look at some of 337 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 3: the real high water marks from the bottom and the 338 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 3: left organizing around the world, you're talking about people who 339 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 3: are drawn from hundreds of years of radical legacies, or 340 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: at least a couple of generations. 341 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of generations, I don't know. I don't have 342 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: a good pivot into this, but okay, so we've been 343 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: talking a lot of about a lot of the technology 344 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: that's been used for meetings. I want to talk about 345 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: a couple of other kinds of meetings that you can have. 346 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: When I originally was writing this, I was like, oh, 347 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: I could fit this whole, this whole section how to 348 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: run a meeting. This will be like this will be 349 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: like twenty minutes. Then I can have twenty minutes about 350 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: like the spokes councils of twenty minutes about general assemblies, 351 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: and we're not like an hour, we're not this is 352 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: like this episode, Margret, and we have not even started talking. 353 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: So okay, that's going to be another the general assembly 354 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: episode is going to be another episode completely in and 355 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: of itself. But I do want to talk about spokes 356 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: councils because this is the thing that I've been finding 357 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: really really useful that I think people just don't know 358 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: about anymore. And because people have lost the knowledge of this, 359 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: a really valuable organizational tactic has been lost. So Okay, 360 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: the thing that a meeting is there to do is 361 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: so a group of people can come together and make decisions. 362 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: But how do you make decisions between groups or And 363 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: this is also often more important less than having like 364 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: cause you know, a lot of spos counsuls aren't usually 365 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: supposed to be like we're all making like we're all 366 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: sort of like this is like a binding decision handed 367 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 1: down by like spost council, right. This is also a 368 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: really useful coordinating tool. Yeah, and this is what it's 369 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: you know, what it's like actually designed for is how 370 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: do you get groups to sort of talk to each 371 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: other and work with each other in a way that 372 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: also lets them continue to be like their own groups 373 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: and not you know, a sort of. 374 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 3: Like subservient to the larger coalition. Yeah. 375 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, the answer to this turns out 376 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: as a technology that was developed. Actually don't know the 377 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: history of the post council. I mean it's been around 378 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: for like a long time. 379 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 3: I've done either like at. 380 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: Least like thirty forty years in anarchist circles, but it 381 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: hasn't really made it out of them. And so spokes 382 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: council is a meeting of groups. And so it's it's 383 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: a meeting of spokespeople. Right, So your group sends like 384 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: one or two people to a thing. You send like 385 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: a couple of people, and all of the other groups 386 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: send some people and you come talk about a thing. 387 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 3: Yep. 388 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: And this is really useful for a number of reasons. One, 389 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: it's a way for different kinds of groups to interface 390 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: with each other in ways that they usually don't. So 391 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: this can be anything from like an affinity group to 392 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: like an NGO, to like a union. It can scale 393 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: between different kinds of things. It can theoretically you can 394 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: do this with like you you're like fucking spokes council 395 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: could theoretically send a person to another spokes council totally, right, 396 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: And this is you know, we'll get more to this 397 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: a second, right, but like, like like this is a 398 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: way for a bunch of different types of organizations to 399 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: come together and do something. And it's a way for 400 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: them to coordinate with each other. It's a way from 401 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: other share information, it's a way for them to and 402 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: this is like one of the sort of secrets of 403 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: organizing is that like actual organizing is built through personal 404 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: relationships with people knowing each other. Yeah, and so this 405 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: is a way for like people to like meet each 406 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: other and get to do things. There are different kinds 407 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: of these. A traditional one is like, Okay, there's like 408 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: a thing happening right, Like there was a there was 409 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: a giant protest, and like a bunch of people who 410 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: are going to be a bunch of the different groups 411 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: and organizations, infinity groups and whatever we're going to be 412 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: at this thing come together and they're like, Okay, how 413 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: what are we doing? How are we going to sort 414 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: of do this and how do we coordinate this with 415 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: each other? 416 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 3: Yeah? 417 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: And yeah, Mark I assume you've been in like a 418 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: million of these, you. 419 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: Know, I have been in a lot of spokes council meetings. 420 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 3: I've been in a fewer of them, and I think 421 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 3: you're right, there's been a bit of a drop off. Yeah, 422 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 3: it's funny. When you were talking earlier, I was like, oh, 423 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 3: I haven't done this in a while. I actually do go 424 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 3: to meetings every week, but I like, but I used 425 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 3: to go to meetings specifically for direct action protests, and 426 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: that is a thing that I used to have more 427 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 3: direct experience with. Yeah, and so I don't want to 428 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 3: be like, all people stop doing it because I don't 429 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 3: totally know, because I'm not totally plugged in. But I 430 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 3: do think the altigl mobilization movement of like nineteen ninety 431 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 3: nine to two thousand and three or so is where 432 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 3: a lot of modern protest tactics and stuff were developed, 433 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 3: or rather it came to a head. The tactics had 434 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 3: been developed for decades by various different groups, and actually 435 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 3: a lot of the technologies around spokes councils and stuff 436 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 3: they come from a lot of different sources, including I 437 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 3: think anarchists in the Spanish Civil War. But I'm not 438 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 3: one hundred percent certain about that. But a lot of 439 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 3: the alter globalization movement stuff comes from the Zapatisas in Chiapas. 440 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 3: I know you didn't ask for history lesson, and I'll 441 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 3: speed run it. 442 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, this is good though. 443 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 3: You know, the folks in Chiapas and the Zapatisas have 444 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 3: developed a lot of different ideas about how to have 445 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: bottom up democracy, and they've been moving through different ones. 446 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 3: They actually moved to a more decentralized model than they 447 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 3: were doing about two years ago, in twenty twenty three. 448 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: But they went around the world and built organizations by 449 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 3: saying everyone, send your people. Were getting together, the People's 450 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 3: Global Alliance, like all of these like you know, Global South. 451 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 3: I'm putting air quotes here. We're getting together and we're 452 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 3: building direct action movements together. And that is where the 453 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 3: ultra globalization movement comes from, at least as much as 454 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: anything else. And some of that is that technology of saying, 455 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 3: send your representatives and do this thing. But it's interesting 456 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 3: because in some ways it's actually just an upside down 457 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 3: version of parliamentary democracy, where theoretically we elect a politician 458 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 3: and they go speak for us. They don't that is 459 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 3: the concept behind a democracy. And so theoretically you can 460 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 3: send a delegate, and there's two ways of doing it. 461 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 3: There's a decision making larger body and there's a coordinating 462 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 3: larger body. And if you want to maintain every group's autonomy, 463 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 3: it is a coordinating body. You get together and at 464 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 3: the spokes council you say, the ten people I represent 465 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 3: who will remain nameless, are all willing to get arrested tomorrow, 466 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 3: and we're all willing to lock ourselves down. And someone 467 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 3: else will say, we don't want to get arrested. The 468 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 3: fourteen people that I'm representing kind of want to break 469 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 3: And then other people will be like, the fifteen people 470 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 3: that I represent kind of which y'all wouldn't break shit. 471 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 3: And you can get together and coordinate, and then the 472 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 3: breakshit people can be like, oh, okay, well we'll make 473 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: sure we break shit somewhere else than where you are, 474 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 3: and all of this stuff. And whereas a decision making 475 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 3: body would get together and your spoke would have a 476 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 3: mandate from your group, they would be empowered to make 477 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 3: decisions for everyone, knowing that the decision has to be 478 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 3: within a certain framework. And then basically when they're done, 479 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 3: you'd be like, Okay, you did or didn't succeed at 480 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 3: your mandate, We're gonna send someone else next time, or whatever. 481 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: So there's two different ways of doing spokes Council meetings. 482 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 3: I think one of the reasons that they fell out 483 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 3: of favor is that by and large, open organizing of 484 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 3: direct action has diminished in the movement because it may 485 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 3: or may not be legal to show up somewhere and say, well, 486 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 3: the fifteen people I represent want to break shit, or 487 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 3: even the fifteen people that I represent want to lock 488 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 3: ourselves down into big puppets with lock boxes, right and 489 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 3: disrupt global trade. Because of the ramping up of repression, 490 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 3: people have backed off of certain types of open organizing. Yeah, 491 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 3: I have opinions about that, but that's kind of I'm 492 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 3: actually not trying to tell anyone what to do about it. 493 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 3: But so I think that that's part of why the 494 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 3: spokes Council has a little bit diminished. And I actually 495 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 3: think that we just need to adapt the spokes Council 496 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: to the modern context. And I'm sure people do still 497 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 3: do them. 498 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: So this is where we're getting this is this is 499 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: what I'm calling them bea technology which is there have 500 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 1: been spokes councils recently that are not like that are 501 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: not this, that are using the idea of the spokes 502 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: council but are kind of a different thing. Okay, because 503 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: there's another thing that you can do with this organizational form, 504 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: right of everyone sends their delegates together or whatever, like 505 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,959 Speaker 1: everyone sends their like spokespeople. Yeah, but everyone meets each other. 506 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: You can also do this for like not planning a 507 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: direct action. 508 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. 509 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: And you can do this as a way to get 510 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: all of the different organizations of like affinity groups and 511 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: shit in a city talking to each other. Yeah. And 512 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: this turns out to be extremely useful. 513 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 514 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: I've seen this a lot recently in sort of transorganizing, 515 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: where like all the trans different groups of the city 516 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: will be like, fuck it, we're showing up to a thing. Yeah, 517 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: this is a different thing that we will be talking 518 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: hopefully to some people who run this soon. This was 519 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: originally supposed to be part of this episode before I 520 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: realized that it was impossible to fit this into this episode, 521 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: which is that two episodes. But there's a really really 522 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: cool thing in Portland that was called the trans General 523 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: Assembly where they people were just like, fuck it, we're 524 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: running a general assembly for like all of the trans 525 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: people come. You can say things and everyone meets at 526 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: the end, and that was awesome. But you can do 527 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: this on a very, very on a targeted level with 528 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: like Okay, I know a bunch of different orgs that like, 529 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: for example, okay, we need to we need to coordinate 530 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: a response to like the situation of trans people in 531 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: the US. So you can go through all of your networks. 532 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: You can be like, okay, I know this person who 533 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: is in this org that does this thing right, and 534 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: you can bring all of those resources together and then 535 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: you can turn that into a spokes council. That's not 536 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: quite the same thing exactly as as the kind of 537 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: like direct action spokes councils that have been organized. 538 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 3: Right, it is closer to a general assembly maybe, but 539 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: maybe that's a pedantic difference or semantic difference. 540 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of is, but it's well, so okay. 541 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: So the way I've been conceiving of it is like, 542 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: if you're specifically getting people together who are there as organizations, 543 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: it's a spokes council. 544 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. 545 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: If they're there as themselves, it's a general assembly. Oh 546 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: that makes sense even if they are sort of like 547 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: representing a thing. But like, yeah, like like the scopes 548 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: and who shows up to them were very different, I think. 549 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 3: Oh, and there's also fishbowls. 550 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: Well, what's a fishbowl? I actually I've heard this one before. 551 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 3: A fish ball is a spokes council where everyone can 552 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 3: come and only the spoke can speak. Hmmm, so you 553 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 3: can look in on the fish. Oh that's what that's called. 554 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: Interesting? 555 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, anyway, which is a way to do it. 556 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 3: It maintains transparency. It's a way to have a still 557 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 3: open meeting, but only but if only one person from 558 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 3: the group is empowered to speak, then it's not a 559 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 3: nightmare of trying to have six thousand people in a 560 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 3: room talk. 561 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: The basic beating technology, all of these things can be 562 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: used for a whole bunch of different things in a 563 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: whole bunch of different ways that we haven't thought of yet. 564 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 3: You could arrange trash pick up in a neighborhood. You 565 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: can make the government obsolete. Yeah, with meetings and spokes 566 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 3: councils and general assemblies and federations and all of these 567 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 3: levels of bottom up organizing. And there are places in 568 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 3: the world where people have done this. 569 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, if we want to close on 570 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: sort of like this is the political angle of this, right, 571 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: Like a free society is one that is structured like this, 572 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: where a bunch of where things happen by people coming 573 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: together to do them. 574 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. Right. 575 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: And you can take the sort of like I don't know, 576 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: I guess you'd call it the workerrist angle of like 577 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, we need to run a waste treatment plant, 578 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: yeah right. So the way the brace treatment plant is 579 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: run is that the people who do waste treatment have 580 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: their own like workers counselor or whatever, right, and they 581 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: decide how they're going to do it, and they go 582 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: do it. Right. 583 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 3: Almost every I would say, every real revolution and revolutionary 584 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: movement in history is doing a version of this. You 585 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 3: can even look at the Soviet concept. The Soviet was 586 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 3: the decision making body, it was the assembly yep, and 587 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: all power to the Soviets with this slogan that literally 588 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 3: was inverted by the Bolsheviks, where the entire idea was 589 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 3: a democratic but revolutionary movement. And this happens constantly even 590 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 3: when societies break down on some level naturally, and a 591 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: ton not all, a ton of indigenous societies this is 592 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 3: the default model. And so you know, in Chiapas with 593 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 3: the Zapatistas, what happened was is that you had this 594 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 3: like Marxist Leninist army and they were like, oh, we're 595 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 3: going to do this, think this way. And the indigenous 596 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 3: people who lived in Shapas were like, that's not how 597 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 3: we do things. And they're like, this is how we 598 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 3: do things. And then those Appatistas, who are good people, 599 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 3: were like, you're right, that's how we do things, you know, 600 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 3: and they like built up this model. And you have 601 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 3: a similar thing happening with the area called Rojeva in 602 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 3: north east Syria, where like basically people are like, actually, 603 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 3: the indigenous Kurdish model of doing things is much more 604 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 3: this egalitarian method and democratic method and then okay, and 605 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 3: the other thing is you can do it in the 606 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 3: worker's model, but there's also people who've messed around with 607 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 3: it and done things like you know what, maybe the 608 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 3: school isn't run by the teachers. Maybe the school is 609 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 3: run by the teachers, the parents and the students, And 610 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 3: maybe the food distribution center is a combination of the 611 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 3: workers of the food distribution center and the people who 612 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 3: make use of it. So maybe the trash pickup is 613 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 3: both the workers and the people who need the services. 614 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 3: But the specifics almost they do matter, and we can 615 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 3: but we don't know, we don't know the actual formulation. 616 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 3: But this is the core of bottom left organizing and 617 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: it is a full thing. And it is funny how 618 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 3: it all comes down to meetings and making sure that 619 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 3: there's food and childcare and not one person taking up 620 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 3: all the time, which is really hard when you podcast 621 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 3: for a living. 622 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: I will tell you that, yeah, but I mean this 623 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: is like, you know, I have had to learn to 624 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: shut the fuck up in meetings. Yeah, need to, and 625 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: but doing it has made meetings better. It's great you 626 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: can learn to shut the fuck up someone else says 627 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: the thing and you don't have to say yeah. But 628 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: then also, I do want to put this out right, 629 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: the things that we're describing here, right, it's okay, Like 630 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: how do you need a beach or you need food, 631 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: you need child care, you need structure that make sure 632 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: one person isn't running the thing. Yeah, this is the 633 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: entire political situation of the modern United States. Right. We 634 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: are trying to get food, we are trying to get childcare, 635 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: we are trying to have a place to do our thing, 636 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: and we're trying to have to not be ruled by 637 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: like a fucking king Yeah, totally. Again, this all seems 638 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: like very very basic like shit, right, But if you 639 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: don't have this, and this is a problem that the 640 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: US has constantly your purtuse movements, It's like most Americans 641 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: don't have a democratic tradition, right, and so when sh 642 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: happens and there's suddenly riots and they're suddenly like mass protests, 643 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: we've just break out. Right, people don't know how to 644 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: make democratic decisions, so they don't, right, and that means 645 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: that nobody's talking to each other. That means that everyone 646 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: is locked in these very small circles of extremely violent paranoia. 647 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: And that sucks. And we can avoid that by knowing 648 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: how to do democracy, because that's fundamentally what running and 649 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: meeting is. This is what democracy looks like. Yeah, And 650 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: I also want to say one more thing. This is 651 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: a podcast that would probably could I could have used 652 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: the facilitator, especially on my end right now, because unmedicated 653 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: mia is a fucking trip. But like you know, when 654 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: we talk about sort of are how do you apply 655 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: this to your sort of broad vision of society, right, 656 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: and it's like, Okay, anarchist, how do you run USAID? Right? 657 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: Because like, yeah, like the destructure of USAID is going 658 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: to kill an unbelievable number of people because people are 659 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: getting ach of v vaccians right right. And the way 660 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,479 Speaker 1: you run that is the way that you run a meeting. Right. 661 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: The workers who pre deuce yeah to act, who are 662 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: the people who actually figure out how to make an 663 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: HIV vaccine? Distribute it, distribute information about it. Those people 664 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: form fucking form fucking councils, and they form fucking meeting groups. 665 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: They and they work in collaboration with the people who 666 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: need them, and that is how you build society, right. 667 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: It's like David Graeber's thing was was like the ultimate 668 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: hidden truth of this world is that it is something 669 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: we make, and we could just as easily make differently. 670 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: And when he says something we make, he was talking 671 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: about in a more abstract sense, but like we do 672 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: literally make it. Like all of this stuff is the 673 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: product of stuff that we did, right, Like we all 674 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: physically built every aspect of this world, right, Everything, everything 675 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: that you see and touch and hear right now are 676 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: things that we designed and engineered and built and we 677 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: don't lose the capacity when we cease to be ruled. 678 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: We can still do that. And as long as we 679 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: have the ability to do democracy right and we have 680 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: the ability to make decisions with each other, we can 681 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: fucking do those things. And we can do them for 682 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, and not for a king. Yeah. 683 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: It's like people ask how would you make a distribute 684 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 3: insulin in anarchist society or an anti capitalist society or 685 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 3: a bottom up society, and you're like, well, we know 686 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 3: how to make and distribute insulin, and we just need 687 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 3: to change some of the social technologies that are doing it. 688 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 3: And I think we could probably do it better because 689 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 3: it's currently not working great, you know. And my other 690 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 3: like go to quote I love the graver quote is 691 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 3: the Derudi quote, anarchist general in Spanish of war. Probably 692 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 3: didn't actually say this, It was probably a journalist put 693 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 3: these words in his mouth, but we're not actually certain. 694 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 3: And he says, like the boot I'm paraphrasing, the bourgeoisie 695 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 3: can blast and ruin the world on their way out 696 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 3: of history. That's fine. Yeah, we the workers built all 697 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 3: of these cities. We can build We know how to 698 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 3: do that. 699 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: The part of that I always stuck with me is 700 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: like I think the exact quote that I got was, 701 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: we are not in the least afraid of ruins. Yeah, 702 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: built this world and we'll do it again. Yeah and yeah. 703 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: So I don't know. 704 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 3: I don't know these meding these episodes are gonna be called. 705 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 3: But if they're called, the answer is meetings. Comma. 706 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: Sorry, I think, Okay, I don't know who's gonna end 707 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: up me. The provisional title right now is the most 708 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: important organizing skill. You don't know, because unfortunately we do 709 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: need people to click on this and they won't if 710 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: it's a meeting. 711 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 3: Things of the answer is into this, Well, then that's 712 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 3: the monster at the end of the book. 713 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: Is that. 714 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 3: Uh, it's meetings all the way down. 715 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, Margaret, thanks for thanks for talking with me about 716 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: the actual fundamental building blocks and tools of democratic life. 717 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 718 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 3: Thanks thanks for having me, Thanks for talking about that stuff. 719 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this this has been it can happen here. 720 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: You can go out in your community and you can 721 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: do these things. You can force pokes, councils, you can 722 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: form assemblies, you can go work with the people around 723 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: you to do things, and you can use structures to 724 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: do it and you can change the world. 725 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 3: The secret is to really begin. 726 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: Hell Yeah, it could Happen Here is a production of 727 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 728 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out 729 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,439 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 730 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could 731 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.