1 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to PM mood, the no Talking Points, no Bullshit 2 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: podcast that takes you behind the curtain, off the red carpet, 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: and to the front lines of progress with change makers 4 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: and innovators that are doing the work to shift our 5 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: culture and expand our social impact. This week, I'm so 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: excited to welcome to PM mood author Katherine Stewart, who 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: has written the book that Scared Me to death. In 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: Catherine Stewart's book The Power Worshipers Inside the Dangerous Rise 9 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: of Religious Nationalism, she talks about how America has been 10 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: on this path of essentially annihilating the barriers between church 11 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: and state, and talks about terms like religious privilege and 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: how religious freedom is really a cloak to provide one 13 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: particular religion with the privilege that it wants and the 14 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: ability to use public funding in many ways to fund 15 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: religious organizations that are discriminating against whatever group they decide 16 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: doesn't agree with their principles. Catherine, thank you so much 17 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: for joining PM mood. Danielle, it's great to talk to you. 18 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me so talk to me 19 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: about the term power worshippers. What does that mean exactly? Well, 20 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 1: power worshippers as you know, as a title of my book, 21 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: and the main theme of the book is what pretends 22 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: to be a religious movement is in fact a political movement. 23 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: And I think nationalist religion is an apherently democratic and 24 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: tends towards athoritarianism. The people in this movement really adore 25 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: people in power, at least when they feel like they 26 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: are there people. So the book title is a bit 27 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: of a double band for the longest time, you know, 28 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: I tell people, I tell my listeners all the time. 29 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: I am not a religious person. I do not subscribe 30 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: to any one organized religion. I consider myself agnostic and 31 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: a person that believes that there is a higher power, 32 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: but I don't subscribe to any particular manual of operation 33 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: right around my faith. What has made me so very 34 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: terrified about the current movement that we see that has 35 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: formed itself around Trump is that they have made him, 36 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: have turned him into some type of profit, and you've 37 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: even heard some Republican leaders refer to him as the 38 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: chosen One. How is it that they have anointed Trump 39 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: in this way, a man that is a grifter in 40 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: many ways? How is it him that they've decided these 41 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: white evangelical Christians to hang their hat on that great question. 42 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,959 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people still can understand why 43 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: people who purport to care about values could support a 44 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: leader like Trump. Some people explain it in transactional terms. 45 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: They think that he's going to appoint judges that are 46 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: favorable to their concerns. To date, Trump has appointed over 47 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety two judges to the federal courts. 48 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: That's over twenty two percent of the federal judiciary. Others 49 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: think he's going to enact economic policies that are favorable 50 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: to the pocketbooks of the plutocratic funders of the Christian 51 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: nationalist movement. But what you said is really apt about 52 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: them comparing him to a biblical ruler. We can't overlook 53 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: something else that's really important. The support for Trump was 54 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: not entirely transactional, and the tenacity of the movement's loyalty 55 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: to Trump is really because there's something about his style 56 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: of politics that speak to this group. Not as a 57 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: tribal politics, it's an authoritarian politics. I mean, the movement 58 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: is profoundly anti democratic. They don't believe in pluralism or quality, 59 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: so they don't just want a seat at the table, 60 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, in the loud form of American democracy. They 61 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: really want to smash the table altogether and replace our 62 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: constitutional democracy with something different. And if you're looking for 63 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: someone who's really going to change the order, you don't 64 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: want a nice guy. You want the tough guy who's 65 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: gonna fight for you and for your tribe. You know, 66 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: one of the pieces that you have written outside of 67 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: your book, you write for The New York Times, and 68 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: I remember reading it at the end of last year 69 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: at the time William Barr and his presence as Attorney 70 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: General as we were moving through impeachment. The conversations that 71 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: he was saying publicly made eyes pop open and let 72 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: us all to believe what we had known from when 73 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: he had put together a memo that no one asked 74 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: for in order to audition for Attorney General, which is 75 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: that he believes that the executive should have expanded powers 76 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: where he was when Obama was president. No one knows. 77 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: But what was really interesting to me in your piece 78 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: was talking about the emergence of William Barr and how 79 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: we cannot be lacking in our conversation about his views 80 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: on the Constitution without discussing his religious views. Can you 81 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: speak to that and tell us a bit about that 82 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: particular piece and how William Barr is such a critical 83 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: figure in this rise of religious nationalism. The first point 84 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: about Bar is that's an excellent illustration of how in 85 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: the movement, denominations don't really matter as much as a 86 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: lot of people think. Many people characterize the movement as evangelical, 87 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: but it actually encompasses a variety of both Protestant and 88 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: non Protestant denominations, including sort of hyper conservative Catholicism. So 89 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: Barr is a Catholic, but what's important about him is 90 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: not his religion, but the sort of political vision to 91 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: which he is so committed. A second point to bring 92 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: up is that he stands for a kind of extraordinary 93 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: and extreme form of religion, and it brings up the 94 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: point that the people in the movement, largely speaking, are 95 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: extreme and not representative of their denominations that they pretend 96 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: to be promoting. The movement claims to be pursuing religious aims, 97 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: but in fact it's pursuing political aims. And I think 98 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: another point about Bill Barr is it gives us a 99 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: really good example of what's driving the movement overall, and 100 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: that is a profound hostility and paranoia to secularism or 101 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: to people who don't share that kind of extreme devotion 102 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: to an extreme or hypo servative forms of religion. Barr has, 103 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: in very speeches and writings, has definitively blamed nonbelievers for 104 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: every problem in society. He says that, you know, secularists 105 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: are out there ransacking everything that's wholly and good, and 106 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: he blames this on the rise of divorce and all 107 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: these other problems which you know most of us could 108 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: look at, rising rates of economic inequality, in many other 109 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: factors in some of these problems that we're facing, he 110 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: has said, I mean, I just want to point out 111 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: in the piece that you co authored, in his speech 112 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: at Notre Dame, he had said, we live in an 113 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: increasingly militant secular age. And this is from a speech 114 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: that you pulled out. I think it was in an 115 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: article that he wrote in nineteen ninety five where he 116 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: is talking about the wreckage of the family, record levels 117 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: of depression and mental illness, drug addiction and subscribing that 118 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: to a loss of strict interpretation of the Christian religion. 119 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: That's true. I mean, he not only blames people who 120 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: are non religious, he suggests that they're profoundly malevolent beings. 121 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: And this is a central part of the movement today, 122 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: which has no interest, of course, and the social science 123 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: of poverty or the social science of changes to the family. 124 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: And I think it also speaks to kind of a 125 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: profound hostility to various forms of sciences that the movement 126 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: has long held. You know, while PM Mood, you know, 127 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: I am using this podcast as a way to talk 128 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: with innovators, activists, authors, you know, about how they use 129 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: their platform for the social good. And to me, your book, 130 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: The Power Worshipers is a social good because you're opening 131 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: our eyes to the reality that we have slowly seen 132 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: seep into our everyday lives. We have slowly seen over 133 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,479 Speaker 1: the past three and a half years how this administration 134 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: has literally turned back the clock on rights for marginalized 135 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: groups in favor of religious institutions. We are watching the 136 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: rollback of a woman's right to choose LGBTQ equality at 137 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: targeting of the Muslim community, and it's playing out right 138 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: in front of us, and no one is calling attention 139 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: to the link between the religious zealots and the Trump administration. 140 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: That's right, Danielle, I mean this is happening in large 141 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: part out in the open. This movement is using the 142 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: tools of democracy to dismantle democracy. It's not really that 143 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: they're trying to deceive us, it's really that we're not listening. 144 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: So that's why I wrote my book. It's a sort 145 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: of deep dive into the inner workings and leading personalities 146 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: of this movement that's using religion and turning it into 147 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: a tool for political power. I mean, it really scares 148 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: me that Mitch McConnell is rewriting the judicial map and 149 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: is placing forty year old right wing judges on lifetime appointments. 150 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: I am a black queer woman, child of immigrants, and 151 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: the fact that we have often times had to use 152 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: the courts as a way to push society forward when 153 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: there were not policies being created by our government to 154 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: protect those most marginalized and vulnerable groups. We went to 155 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: the courts because justice was supposed to be blind. Mitch 156 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: McConnell has rewritten that map. Yeah, you know, you're right 157 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: about that, Daniel. The movement understands that a lot of 158 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: its aims can be achieved in the courts, and I 159 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: think that a lot of the strategic direction over the 160 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: years has been provided by some of the legal advocacy 161 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: groups of the religious right. I'm thinking about groups like 162 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: Deliance Defending Freedom, which has an annual budget of over 163 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: fifty million dollars a year, and thinking about groups like 164 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: the Federalist Society, which plays an outsized role in grooming 165 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: and promoting judges for the federal courts and Supreme courts. 166 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: And you know the reason why they are winning elections 167 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: even though I think people who Republicans are minority in 168 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: this country in terms of sheer numbers, but they're disproportionately 169 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: unified organized. Their leaders use data tools, media and messaging 170 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: to sort of get people on the same page to 171 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: turn out the vote, and they've also trained their rank 172 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: and file to vote on the issue of judges. In 173 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: researching the book, I attended all these right wing conferences 174 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: and strategy meetings and attended events that are in the 175 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: forums that movement leaders share, and they'll often stand up 176 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: and say, you know, this election is about judges, judges judges, 177 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: and I think people who are sort of liberal, left, 178 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: progressive whatever don't often think about that. We often are 179 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: more focused on the personalities of their candidates than is 180 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: this someone you want to go to lunch with or 181 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: have a beer with, or is this someone who has 182 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: a detail of a healthcare plan that you care about? 183 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: And I think that we can start to win elections 184 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: two if we start looking beyond these sort of low 185 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: hanging fruit and start looking more on the issue of Okay, 186 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: who are they going to point to the run the cabinet? 187 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: What judges are they going to point? I mean again, 188 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: Trump has appointed now one hundred and ninety two judges 189 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: to the federal courts. That's an unbelievable number. They stonewalled, 190 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: as you know, they prevented Obama from filling a number 191 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: of feats, and then as soon as Trump came in, 192 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: they just sort of swooped in and people weren't focused 193 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: on that in twenty sixteen. But why, I just don't understand. 194 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: Is it that Democrats believe in the goodness of all 195 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: people and things will just work out well because we 196 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: all subscribe to the same political and social norms. Is 197 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: that it because we are realizing if there's nothing else 198 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: that this administration has shown us, is that political norms, 199 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: essentially our entire democracy is basically a handshake, right, It's 200 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: basically a handshake deal we're thinking that things that we 201 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: believe to be cemented in law, cemented in our constitution, 202 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: we're actually just up for consideration, right, I know. I mean, 203 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: I think in a country where forty to fifty percent 204 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: of the people don't vote, you don't need a majority 205 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: to win. You just need a really committed minority. And 206 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: a system is politically fragmented as ours, even small groups 207 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: can dominate if they are united. So emphasizing unity is 208 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: really really important at this point. I just don't see 209 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: how we come together knowing what is being done to 210 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: our constitution is being done to our rights. If this group, right, 211 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: these power worshippers, they haven't been planning for this this 212 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: moment for decades, that is absolutely right. I mean, I 213 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: think the thing that they've been really successful in doing 214 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: is taking kind of long term view of this. Part 215 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: of the movement coalesced, you know, decades ago, when a 216 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: group of folks that call themselves the New Right realized that, 217 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: you know, the culture was going in the direction that 218 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: they didn't like. They were really animated. One thing that 219 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: really drew them together was what they saw as unfair 220 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: tax treatment in their view of these racist academies which 221 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: were all through the South. They were really upset that 222 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: the IRS was starting to look at institutions like Bob 223 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: Jones all his racist academies and say, well, why are 224 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: we giving you tax exemptions if you're racially segregated. They 225 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: were calling into question the tax treatment of these segregated academies, 226 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: and the move it was really outraged by this. They 227 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: were committed to segregation, many of them. Bob Jones was, 228 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: as you know, an art and segregationist. But they realized 229 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: that this wasn't really an issue that was going to 230 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: unite the movement. They needed something with a sort of 231 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: a nicer and more acceptable public face. So you know, 232 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: they kind of went down the list and they considered 233 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: a number of issues that they could use to unite 234 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: their movement. One of the issues they considered was a 235 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: women's rights movement the era, but that was already not 236 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: doing terribly well, and there were some other issues on 237 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: the list. They crossed them off, and finally they realized 238 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: they settled on the issue of abortion as an issue 239 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: that could unite their movement. Now, remember at this point, 240 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: abortion was an issue that a lot of Republican Protestants 241 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: supported when it passed Rovie Wade was passed. The Southern 242 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: Baptist Conventional published an op ed and one of their 243 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: publications hailing the decision. Billy Graham himself at the time said, 244 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: I believe in planned parenthood. It was considered, you know, 245 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: his mind and those of many others a Catholic issues 246 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: that I had to disagree with a Catholic stance. And 247 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan signed the most liberal abortion bill into law, 248 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: I believe it was in nineteen sixty seven. But over 249 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: time leaders of the movement they were really extremist, and 250 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: they really wanted to roll back a lot of the 251 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: gains in civil rights inequality. Remember this is an anti 252 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: pluralistic movement that doesn't believe in equality in many aspects 253 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: of civil rights law. And so over time they realized 254 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: that this was an issue that they could use to 255 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: unite conservative Protestants and conservative Catholics and bring in a 256 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: number of what one of their members called our our 257 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: fringe friends. You know. They recognized it would get these 258 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: really fringe extremists excited, and so over time they purged 259 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: the Republican Party of pro choice voices, and finally they 260 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: created what has essentially we see today. It's a kind 261 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: of pro life religion and leaders to the movement are 262 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: really not dumb. I think people underestimate them a lot. 263 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: They understand that, you know, if you can get people 264 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: to vote on one or two issues, you can get 265 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: their vote. And so they work really hard to persuade 266 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: the rank and file to all of these messaging strategies 267 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: and media strategies, and through pastors in particular, they get 268 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: people to think that, you know, you need to vote 269 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: your biblical values, and the number one biblical value is life, 270 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, or what they know, what they call life, 271 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: sort of anti abortion extremism exactly. And so they get 272 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: them to vote on those single issues and they get 273 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: their vote, and that's how they win. You know, another 274 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: piece that you wrote that was incredibly eye opening, don't 275 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: let Trump pay back evangelicals like this new rules that 276 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: his administration to help advance religious freedom. The reason why 277 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: this piece in particular, in the ways that this administration 278 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: wants to make it okay for organizations receiving taxpayer money 279 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: to be exempt from antidiscrimination laws is really troubling to 280 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: me as a black queer woman. Right and there is 281 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: a case right now that is going to be heard 282 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: by the Supreme Court Fulton v. City of Philadelphia, where 283 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: a Catholic adoption agency does not want to allow same 284 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: sex couples to be able to adopt, and so as 285 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: part of their biblical stance, they don't believe in homosexuality, 286 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: and so they are not going to allow those adoptions 287 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: to take place through their agency, and they're being sued 288 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: because they're not following the law of Philadelphia, which is 289 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: not to discriminate. So now the Supreme Court is going 290 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: to get ready to hear this case, and we already 291 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: know who's on the Supreme Court. I don't even need 292 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: to wait to figure out how this is going to 293 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: be decided. I'm more concerned with the ramifications of what 294 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: now happens to gay people across this country once this 295 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: becomes president. This kind of idea of religious liberty is 296 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: antithetical to what religious liberty really is. It privileges certain 297 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: religious views over others. So if your commitment to equality 298 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: and equal treatment under the law is rooted in your 299 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: own sincerely held conscience and religious beliefs, there's no liberty 300 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: in this kind of religious liberty for you. It's basically 301 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: the idea that conservative Christians should be permitted to discriminate 302 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: against anyone who's characteristics or very being offense. They're so 303 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: called sincerely held religious beliefs. This idea of religious liberty 304 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: basically throws a civil rights law on its head, really does, 305 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: true religious liberty is really a freedom of thought and 306 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: of conscience and worship if you hold religion, or a 307 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: freedom from religion if you don't happen to have a 308 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: particular religious create, a freedom from having to fund other 309 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: people's religions with your tax dollars. But in the hands 310 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: of these religious nationalists, the term religious liberty has come 311 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: to me and it's opposite. It's really an Orwellian term 312 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: that means religious privilege. It really is a reliant I 313 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: mean my God. And I think it's also, as you 314 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: alluded to, Danielle, I think it's also an effort to 315 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: obtain public money to subsidies and tax ductions and grants 316 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: and these other schemes that they already have, like religions 317 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: already have all kinds of privileges, are privileged in our 318 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: tax code because they get special subsidies and things other 319 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: benefits that other non religious nonprofits don't get. They already 320 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: don't have to adhere to nonsc anti discrimination law that 321 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: other non religious nonprofits have to adhere to, but they 322 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: want to increase that slow of funds. And I think 323 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: this is incredibly obvious in the field of public education. 324 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: Let's just look at that an example where religiously motivated 325 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: factor advocates say that if they don't get public funding 326 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: of religious schools, then that's a discrimination against their religion. 327 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: But you know, it goes even further than that. Eight 328 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: federal agencies have now proposed changes to rules that govern 329 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: how they work with religious organizations, and they propose to 330 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: allow these organizations to receive federal funds without themselves complying 331 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: with antidiscrimination law. And in some instances, these organizations may 332 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: proselytize or require participation in religious services. So this is 333 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: clearly a bid for, you know, to turn on the 334 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: tap of public money in their direction. You know, the 335 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: idea that treating religious groups on the same basis when 336 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: it comes to government funding without having to give up 337 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: their special privileges in other areas as a violation of 338 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: their religious liberty. It's like a clear means of funding religion, 339 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: of establishing religion. Let's not forget that the establishment clause, 340 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: you know, which offers the best piece of real estate 341 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: in our constitution. It is the first clause of the 342 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: first Amendment of our Constitution, and it is just antithetical 343 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: to everything that we were intended to be as a country. 344 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: You know what it is is that I don't know 345 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: how we move forward if democrats and progressives in general 346 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: are not as organized and as thoughtful and as strategic 347 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: as the power worshipers. I don't know how we make 348 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: the type of progress and change that is necessary to 349 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: have a more inclusive democracy if when we have the 350 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: reigns of power, when we're holding them, that we're not 351 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: using them to their fullest extent. That Obama didn't use 352 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: to the extent that he should have rolled over Mitch 353 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: McConnell and been able to appoint judges and take him 354 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: to court to get what was done. I don't know 355 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: how we continue to make incremental change when we get power, 356 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: but they literally rewrite the map when they do. I 357 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: actually think that there's no cause for despair right now, 358 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: because I'm seeing those changes taking place already. I mean, 359 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: I think we're seeing so much more activism today than 360 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: we saw five or six years ago. And certainly ten 361 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: years ago when I started writing on these topics, younger 362 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: people in particular were pretty politically you know, there were 363 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: obviously many exceptions, but overall, there was much less awareness, 364 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: much less activism than there is today. And look, you know, 365 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: here's another issue. I think we can't begin to meet 366 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: our challenges until people understand what we're actually facing. And 367 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: I think that that awareness is growing. The awareness is 368 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: growing that we're not just dealing with a culture war, 369 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: we're dealing with the political war. We're actually dealing with 370 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: a political movement. And that makes all this incredibly helpful. So, 371 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, while it's also true that a sector of 372 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: the media has been enlisted in a propagad a campaign, 373 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: working with far right platforms and acting as mouthpieces for 374 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: disinformation and hate, there are so many other journalists that 375 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: are bringing and you folks who are running different media 376 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: platforms like you, who are working hard now to bring 377 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: the truth to light. And I think that you know, 378 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: there's work to be done, but we're free to do it. 379 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: And religious nationalists have identified the tools of democracy that 380 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: they need us to dismantle democracy, but those tools are 381 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: freely available to us to use in order to restore 382 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: our democracy and to restore our country to the idea 383 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: of a pluralistic country rooted inequality and constitutional principles as 384 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: it was intended. I would be remiss if I did 385 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: not bring up, Katherine, the current global pandemic that we 386 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: are dealing with with the coronavirus. And I bring this 387 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: up because the actions by this president, or I should 388 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: say in action by this president to me also seem 389 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: to be rooted in some type of religious zealot thinking, 390 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: where this is some type of rapture that is coming 391 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 1: to clear the field, and we should do nothing to 392 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: stop it. We should do nothing to prevent it. This 393 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: is God's will. We had Republicans getting on the news 394 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: either moving from one place of this being a hoax 395 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: to another place being well, you know, those that are vulnerable, 396 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: those that are old, they need to sacrifice for the 397 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: rest of us, sacrifice their lives. Literally. Yeah, so much 398 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: for the right to life, so much for the sort 399 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: of idea that this is the pro life movement. But 400 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: I think you're right. There are a number of ways 401 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: in which this movement there's some responsibility for the current 402 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: incompetence in our national response to the pandemic. I can 403 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: think of like three ways. So let's start first with 404 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: the fact that Trump is beholden to a movement that 405 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: has for decades derided science and from a kind of 406 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: anti science culture, derided critical thinking, rejecting expertise, and that's 407 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: obviously contributed to our inability to address the crisis in 408 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: an evidence based fashion. And if you look at some 409 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: of the misinformation promoted by Trump and his cronies, this 410 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: is already rife in conservative, hyper conservative religious communities that 411 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: we're all in for Trump. Secondly, I think this is 412 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: a really important thing to note. We have a poorly 413 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: developed collective infrastructure, and that is a consequence of decades 414 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: of right wing economic policy, and this movement of power worshipers. 415 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: The Christian nationalist movement is implicated in that too. They've 416 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 1: completely allied themselves for a very long time with a libertarian, 417 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: pro corporate conservative wing of the Republican Party. So they've 418 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: supported politicians and policies that have led to the privatization 419 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: of the health care system and undermine government everywhere. They're 420 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: constantly demonizing government and seeking to tear down the social 421 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: safety net, even going so far to call it unbiblical. 422 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: So that's an enormous reason why we're unprepared for this crisis. 423 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: And then you know, we've also seen in the Trump 424 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,479 Speaker 1: years a breakdown of formal expertise and instead we see 425 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: that he's putting people into positions of a huge amount 426 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: of power based on their political loyalty and their willingness 427 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: to conform to this extreme religious ideology. So that's you know, 428 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: you've got folks up there who really are there not 429 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: because they're experts in their fields, but because they're guided 430 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: by religious ideology in pursuit of power, and they're willing 431 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: to sort of praise the president for you know, I 432 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: don't know, hiccupping and burping or whatever. And they have 433 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: very little interest in serving the wider public interest. So 434 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: I think these all of these factors really contribute to 435 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: the mismanagement of this crisis. I mean, you've got folks 436 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: like people in the scientific community who have been talking 437 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: about this coming crisis for a really long time. Why 438 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: didn't folks in our federal government start planning for possible 439 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: equipment shortages and the creation of masks and other protective 440 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: equipment and a kind of infrastructure we need to treat 441 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: the sick. Why weren't they planning for that months ago 442 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: when other folks were sounding the alarm because they were 443 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: too busy calling it a hoax. Exactly, they were too 444 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: busy wasting time and costing Americans their lives. That's true. 445 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: I mean, the Republican Party, in part because of this 446 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: sort of influence of the Christian nationalist movement, now takes 447 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: an all spin, all politics view of the world. Everything 448 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: is spun for political gains. So as soon as there's 449 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: any bad news that might have an impact on our 450 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: financial future, you and all these folks like Jerry Falwell 451 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: Junior coming up and calling this a hoax and kind 452 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: of trying to downplay the consequences of the movement. And 453 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: there's a person I don't even remember her name, Trishregan, 454 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: knows that she's on Fox News and she's you cast 455 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: us as an attack on Trump? Are you kidding me? 456 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: I mean, the sad thing about this is this is 457 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: a pandemic. This is like a real thing. It's going 458 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: to kill people. It's already killing people all over the world. 459 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: You know, Usually the consequences of this type of misinformation 460 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: and political spin don't show up for a while. But 461 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: in the case of a global pandemic. You can see 462 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: the consequences. They are a life or death and they're 463 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: happening right now. And they're happening right now. Catherine Stewart, 464 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: your book The Power Worshippers Inside of the Dangerous Rise 465 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: of Religious Nationalism is a must read. Thank you so much, Danielle. Absolutely. 466 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: The question that I always end with is how do 467 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: you get in the PM mood to change the world? 468 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: Get in the mood to change the world. Yes, well, 469 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: how do you do there? Well, you'll give me hope, 470 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: your listeners give me a hope. I mean, there are 471 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people who really care about our democracy, 472 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: who really want to turn back this sort of tide 473 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: of religious nationalism and affirm quality for people of all 474 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: faiths and no faith for people of different walks of life. 475 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: And people are becoming more active than ever before, and 476 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: that is what gives me hope. Writers like you, who 477 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: I know, put themselves potentially in danger because the people 478 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: that you write about, that you investigate, in my opinion, 479 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: are dangerous right they have. These are people that think 480 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: that it's okay to assault pregnant women seeking an abortion. 481 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: These are people that you really don't care about all life. 482 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: They only care about one type of life, and so 483 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: they don't mind taking another life. I thank you so 484 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: much for the work that you do for your investigation 485 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: into what I think is a critical issue that we 486 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: should be paying attention to. The rise of the religious right. 487 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: The rise of religious nationalism is a problem, is a 488 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: threat to everyone, and the sooner that we all wake 489 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: up and pay attention to it, the better off we are. 490 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: So Catherine, thank you so much for your work, for 491 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: your continued writing. The book, Folks is the power worshippers 492 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: inside the dangerous rise of religious nationalism. You can get 493 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: it everywhere. Thank you, Katherine. Oh, thank you so much. Danielle, 494 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,479 Speaker 1: thanks for listening to PM mood as always. You can 495 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: hear episodes every week for free, and my daily political podcast, 496 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: Woke a F Daily, is on Patreon for just five 497 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: dollars a month at patreon dot com slash woke a F. 498 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: That's five dollars a month for five shows a week, 499 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: so check it out if you're in the mood for 500 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: more of me, Danielle Moody follow me on Twitter and 501 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: Instagram at D two cents d E E T W 502 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: O c E N T S and as always, stay 503 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: in the PM mood to change the world.