WEBVTT - On Background: The Political Spender America Deserves 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:23.236 Pushkin. You might remember back in December twenty twenty two, 0:00:23.396 --> 0:00:26.076 right around the time crypto founder Sam Bankman Freed was 0:00:26.156 --> 0:00:29.956 arrested in the Bahamas. He was charged with various financial crimes, 0:00:30.236 --> 0:00:32.036 and we also saw a lot of headlines about his 0:00:32.116 --> 0:00:36.276 political donations, headlines with very large numbers attached to them. 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:41.716 CBS News reported one of those stories, the crypto entrepreneur 0:00:41.796 --> 0:00:45.196 made about forty million dollars in political donations in the 0:00:45.236 --> 0:00:48.196 twenty twenty two election cycle. So why do I care 0:00:48.196 --> 0:00:51.396 about this now? I spent an awful lot of time 0:00:51.436 --> 0:00:53.756 with Sam Bankman Freed, as I reported my next book, 0:00:53.756 --> 0:00:55.796 because he sits right in the middle of it. And 0:00:55.876 --> 0:00:58.476 whatever you think about how he made his money, his 0:00:58.556 --> 0:01:01.356 eagerness to give large chunks of it away was fascinating. 0:01:01.836 --> 0:01:05.356 But the contributions to political causes and candidates is turning 0:01:05.356 --> 0:01:08.236 out to be yet another area where he's now in trouble. 0:01:08.916 --> 0:01:12.636 And all those politicians he gave money to they might 0:01:12.716 --> 0:01:20.076 have to give it back from against the rules. This 0:01:20.276 --> 0:01:37.636 is on background. I'm Michael Lewis. In order to understand 0:01:37.716 --> 0:01:39.956 the mess that Sam Bankmanfreed is in, I need to 0:01:39.996 --> 0:01:42.596 know a lot more about the world of campaign finance 0:01:42.676 --> 0:01:47.596 law that world's changed in the last decade. In twenty ten, 0:01:47.636 --> 0:01:50.316 the Supreme Court made a controversial ruling in a case 0:01:50.396 --> 0:01:54.836 called Citizens United. Basically, the ruling said the corporations and 0:01:54.876 --> 0:01:56.836 other groups can spend as much money as they want 0:01:56.876 --> 0:02:00.836 to on elections. Citizens United also spawned the creation of 0:02:00.916 --> 0:02:05.796 powerful political action committees called super PACs and so called 0:02:06.396 --> 0:02:11.556 dart money nonprofits that don't disclose their donors. It's a 0:02:11.596 --> 0:02:16.076 tangled web, and I need a guide. That's where Jordan 0:02:16.156 --> 0:02:19.836 Libowitz comes in. He's communications director for the Center for 0:02:19.916 --> 0:02:24.436 Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a campaign finance watchdog group. 0:02:25.436 --> 0:02:28.236 When Sam Bankman Fried set up his own superpack, it 0:02:28.316 --> 0:02:30.996 was called protect Our Future. It quickly became one of 0:02:30.996 --> 0:02:34.716 the biggest political donors around, and Jordan Libowitz took notice. 0:02:35.636 --> 0:02:38.236 He's been watching Sam bagman Freed even longer than I have. 0:02:40.796 --> 0:02:43.076 When did he come on your radar screen? Like? When 0:02:43.116 --> 0:02:44.676 did you first stop paying attention to him? 0:02:44.996 --> 0:02:52.036 So there were articles midway through the twenty twenty cycle 0:02:52.636 --> 0:02:56.516 about this new donor who no one had ever heard of, 0:02:57.516 --> 0:03:00.196 spending huge amounts of money and pledging to be one 0:03:00.196 --> 0:03:04.956 of the biggest donors in the election. Anytime someone is 0:03:04.996 --> 0:03:10.516 spending huge amounts of money, that raises our eyebrows. But 0:03:10.596 --> 0:03:13.836 crypto was still very very new to us. Then. We 0:03:13.876 --> 0:03:18.516 didn't see crypto influence building for another couple of years. 0:03:20.156 --> 0:03:23.076 But it was just here's this guy who got rich 0:03:23.236 --> 0:03:25.996 and he's spending a lot of money. You know, it's 0:03:26.036 --> 0:03:30.676 a name we recognize. It wasn't until FTX blew up 0:03:31.076 --> 0:03:33.396 that we really started paying attention to him. 0:03:33.796 --> 0:03:36.756 Do you notice any patterns in his giving? Like I'd 0:03:36.796 --> 0:03:39.596 love to hear kind of what campaigns he specifically gave to, 0:03:39.716 --> 0:03:42.756 but more generally, were there any patterns to the campaigns 0:03:42.796 --> 0:03:43.396 he was giving to. 0:03:43.876 --> 0:03:49.516 The first thing is that the giving was more ideological 0:03:49.596 --> 0:03:56.596 than political. These are helping pro crypto candidates or ones 0:03:56.676 --> 0:04:00.756 that could be beneficial to his business later on. The 0:04:00.836 --> 0:04:04.436 second thing is he seemed to concentrate much more in primaries. 0:04:05.036 --> 0:04:08.316 A lot of elections in this country, the general election 0:04:08.636 --> 0:04:13.396 is not particularly competitive, thanks in part to gerrymandering or 0:04:13.436 --> 0:04:16.916 to just the way states are. The actual election to 0:04:16.956 --> 0:04:20.436 decide is the primary. So when we talk about him 0:04:20.556 --> 0:04:26.276 as this massive democratic donor, most of his money was 0:04:26.316 --> 0:04:30.916 going to influence democratic primaries that we know about as 0:04:30.916 --> 0:04:35.476 opposed to helping Democrats be Republicans. 0:04:36.236 --> 0:04:39.956 And in those primaries, what was he looking for in candidates? 0:04:40.876 --> 0:04:44.716 So he had this idea of what the future should 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:49.476 look like. We know that regulation and laws around cryptocurrency 0:04:49.596 --> 0:04:53.556 are coming. Who is going to be voting on that, 0:04:53.596 --> 0:04:57.596 Who's going to be casting the deciding vote, finding people 0:04:57.716 --> 0:05:02.636 who are likely to be friendly, and then supporting them 0:05:02.756 --> 0:05:05.396 in primaries to make sure they are in Congress. 0:05:08.636 --> 0:05:11.956 You have a of how much money he poured into this. 0:05:14.396 --> 0:05:20.476 So the pack itself was twenty something million, I think 0:05:20.476 --> 0:05:23.796 twenty three million, and then he I think he did 0:05:23.796 --> 0:05:27.756 at least another ten million on top of that. But 0:05:27.876 --> 0:05:30.916 then if he was also doing just as much through 0:05:31.196 --> 0:05:36.396 dark money, we're talking about sixty seventy million, which puts 0:05:36.436 --> 0:05:40.956 him easily in the top three, four or five biggest 0:05:40.956 --> 0:05:45.516 spenders in the country, along with who names like George Soros, 0:05:45.916 --> 0:05:50.636 Seon Adelson, the u Lines, the Kochs, those are the 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:52.276 kind of the big families of money. 0:05:52.596 --> 0:05:56.036 So he was playing at that level. Yes, it's kind 0:05:56.036 --> 0:05:56.556 of amazing. 0:05:57.596 --> 0:06:02.516 What's really amazing is those other names I named decades 0:06:02.556 --> 0:06:06.916 in politics and decades in political spending. He came out of. 0:06:06.876 --> 0:06:09.356 Nowhere, Can we just back up a minute here, talk 0:06:09.436 --> 0:06:12.356 me through all these campaign finance terms like dark money 0:06:12.396 --> 0:06:17.076 and packs. I like a little campaign finance one oh one. 0:06:17.596 --> 0:06:23.036 So normally when you're giving to campaigns, there's a limit 0:06:23.076 --> 0:06:26.796 the FC sets the Federal Election Commission, and right now, 0:06:26.836 --> 0:06:30.356 that's thirty three hundred dollars per election. If you're giving 0:06:30.396 --> 0:06:34.956 to a candidate, more towards other organizations. 0:06:34.236 --> 0:06:35.996 And where does that and where does that amount come from? 0:06:36.036 --> 0:06:39.156 It's kind of arbitrary. Why can't I just give anything 0:06:39.156 --> 0:06:39.796 I want? 0:06:40.356 --> 0:06:43.196 So they set a fairly low limit, and then it's 0:06:43.236 --> 0:06:46.356 index to inflation. So there's actually a big boost for 0:06:46.436 --> 0:06:49.556 this cycle of I think four hundred dollars per election, 0:06:50.156 --> 0:06:54.116 But generally it's to limit the idea of you being 0:06:54.156 --> 0:06:58.236 able to just go out and buy an election. But 0:06:58.396 --> 0:07:04.396 then we get these decisions starting with Citizens United and 0:07:04.756 --> 0:07:10.676 Speech now versus the FFC, which essentially say book freedom 0:07:10.716 --> 0:07:16.676 of speech prohibits the government from limiting how money can 0:07:16.716 --> 0:07:22.196 be spent to influence elections and opened up corporations and 0:07:22.556 --> 0:07:27.156 unions and nonprofits to give money or to spend money, 0:07:27.516 --> 0:07:30.636 you have a put up collection committee or a pack 0:07:30.796 --> 0:07:33.236 which has a higher limit, it's five thousand dollars a 0:07:33.316 --> 0:07:39.036 year and has more regulations. Then you have what's now 0:07:39.116 --> 0:07:42.556 known as a super pack, which you can give an 0:07:42.676 --> 0:07:48.716 unlimited amount to with the two limits being that the 0:07:48.796 --> 0:07:52.596 super pack can't give that money then directly to a candidate, 0:07:53.116 --> 0:07:56.516 and it can't coordinate it spending with a candidate. 0:07:56.916 --> 0:08:00.836 So there's still limits on direct giving by corporations and 0:08:00.876 --> 0:08:04.916 individuals directly to the campaign exactly, but there's no limit 0:08:05.356 --> 0:08:07.596 on doing whatever you want with money to help the 0:08:07.636 --> 0:08:09.356 campaign without colluding it. 0:08:10.396 --> 0:08:14.756 Right now, it's going to get murkier. After Citizens United 0:08:15.156 --> 0:08:20.196 allowed nonprofit organizations to spend unlimited you have five oh 0:08:20.236 --> 0:08:24.996 one c four groups which are known as social wealth organizations. 0:08:25.716 --> 0:08:28.636 They're allowed to spend money on politics as long as 0:08:28.636 --> 0:08:30.916 it's not their primary purpose, so as long as it's 0:08:30.996 --> 0:08:35.116 less than fifty percent of their budget. Unlike all the 0:08:35.116 --> 0:08:38.476 political groups are just named, they don't have to actually 0:08:38.516 --> 0:08:43.036 disclose anything to the FEC. So the money coming in 0:08:43.556 --> 0:08:45.956 is a complete mystery where it's from. 0:08:46.756 --> 0:08:49.396 And it can do it can it do everything that 0:08:49.436 --> 0:08:52.236 a super pac can do right exactly. 0:08:52.436 --> 0:08:53.556 It doesn't have limits. 0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:56.156 Sold Why would anybody have a superpack if they were 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:58.676 trying to disguise what they were doing exactly. 0:08:58.756 --> 0:09:00.836 Well, you're not supposed to be disguiseding what you're doing. 0:09:02.476 --> 0:09:05.716 All of this is done more or less with a 0:09:05.716 --> 0:09:09.396 wink and a nudge. You don't say that I'm giving 0:09:09.436 --> 0:09:11.916 you this money for the election, because that would make 0:09:11.956 --> 0:09:14.756 it a political donation, and they can't take political donations. 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:19.876 What they can do is give money to politics. So 0:09:20.476 --> 0:09:24.596 let's say I want to help your campaign for Senate 0:09:25.076 --> 0:09:27.396 and I want to spend millions of dollars to do so. 0:09:28.516 --> 0:09:31.276 I'm going to write a check for two million dollars 0:09:31.756 --> 0:09:34.476 to a dark money group and tell them, you know 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:36.996 this is because I support your mission, go out into 0:09:37.156 --> 0:09:39.436 what you want with it. They can then spend that 0:09:39.476 --> 0:09:42.436 two million dollars on ads that will help you. But 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:45.356 as long as I am not saying, hey, I want 0:09:45.396 --> 0:09:49.316 you to spend this money to help him, then we're 0:09:49.356 --> 0:09:51.276 in the clear. And that's a problem. 0:09:51.836 --> 0:09:58.876 Okay, So so since twenty ten, if I, if I billionaire, 0:09:59.516 --> 0:10:01.956 want to go try to buy a Senate seat for 0:10:02.036 --> 0:10:06.836 someone without any letting anybody know, without anybody able to 0:10:06.836 --> 0:10:12.116 see my money, give it to you dark money group 0:10:12.956 --> 0:10:16.236 with a wink and a NOD and you go and 0:10:16.276 --> 0:10:18.516 buy as much litical ads or whatever as you as 0:10:18.516 --> 0:10:21.476 you want with that, and nobody will know where your 0:10:21.556 --> 0:10:24.516 money came from. That's good, right. 0:10:24.716 --> 0:10:27.716 The five oh one C four group needs to disclose 0:10:27.756 --> 0:10:34.156 its donors to the IRS, yep, But there's not a 0:10:34.756 --> 0:10:36.596 there's not that overlap between the I R S and 0:10:37.716 --> 0:10:38.956 the FC and. 0:10:38.916 --> 0:10:41.276 The IRS not could disclose it publicly. 0:10:41.156 --> 0:10:46.516 Right, And because you're just writing this check for general purposes, 0:10:47.076 --> 0:10:50.396 you're in the clear. And it gets even more of 0:10:50.396 --> 0:10:54.316 an issue in that to make a political donation, you 0:10:54.356 --> 0:10:57.076 can't be a foreign national writing a check from another country, 0:10:57.716 --> 0:11:00.116 but a dark money group can take that legally. 0:11:00.796 --> 0:11:03.476 The Saudis could put a billion dollars into a dark 0:11:03.476 --> 0:11:06.116 money fund and without as long as they didn't tell 0:11:06.156 --> 0:11:07.836 them what to do with it, and the dark money 0:11:07.836 --> 0:11:08.956 fund can go and buy election. 0:11:09.276 --> 0:11:12.676 So they're not supposed to spend any foreign money on elections. 0:11:13.516 --> 0:11:14.556 But could it be happening. 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:18.436 Absolutely, that would be that. But that would be illegal, Oh, 0:11:18.556 --> 0:11:23.436 incredibly illegal. Sure, But what's done legally is what's amazing. 0:11:23.836 --> 0:11:26.316 I mean, my two thoughts now that you've explained this 0:11:26.356 --> 0:11:30.636 to me that pop to mind is that one if 0:11:30.636 --> 0:11:33.076 this is true that I can get the same results 0:11:33.196 --> 0:11:36.036 from a dark money group as I can from a 0:11:36.036 --> 0:11:40.316 superpack with my money. The only reason I'd go with 0:11:40.316 --> 0:11:42.556 the superpack is if I wanted everybody to know that 0:11:42.596 --> 0:11:46.556 I was giving the money exactly Otherwise I would and 0:11:46.596 --> 0:11:48.956 maybe I would Maybe I'd want like the Senator who 0:11:49.036 --> 0:11:50.756 I get elected to know it was my money. 0:11:51.036 --> 0:11:53.636 So so, but it would be it would be positively 0:11:53.716 --> 0:11:56.396 advertising the fact. But otherwise I just wouldn't do that. 0:11:56.876 --> 0:12:00.076 I would go with this, this other entity. The second 0:12:00.076 --> 0:12:02.676 thing that like this, this is this has bewildered me 0:12:02.716 --> 0:12:04.916 for a long time since the citizens in the United 0:12:04.956 --> 0:12:10.676 decision is given how easy it is to get money 0:12:10.716 --> 0:12:15.596 into politics, unlimited sums of money into politics to influence 0:12:15.636 --> 0:12:19.956 elections without anybody knowing where the money came from. It's 0:12:19.996 --> 0:12:23.916 amazing how little money there is in politics. If you'd 0:12:24.036 --> 0:12:27.676 told me in two thousand and five that these laws 0:12:27.716 --> 0:12:32.076 we're going to change, i'd a thought in a presidential 0:12:32.116 --> 0:12:36.956 election cycle, one hundred billion dollars would be spent on 0:12:37.116 --> 0:12:40.516 Senate on congressional seats in the presidential election. But it's 0:12:40.556 --> 0:12:44.756 nothing like that. Is that a weird reaction or do 0:12:44.796 --> 0:12:46.076 you do you agree with that. 0:12:46.636 --> 0:12:51.676 The big, big cost is TV ads. There's a limit 0:12:51.716 --> 0:12:55.236 to the number of ads you can run, right, But 0:12:56.596 --> 0:13:01.596 generally the very very rich do not necessarily want to 0:13:01.596 --> 0:13:03.276 spend all their money on one election. 0:13:04.116 --> 0:13:06.596 Right. So the limiting factor isn't the money. The limiting 0:13:06.676 --> 0:13:11.676 factor is the effect that money can have. Given that 0:13:11.916 --> 0:13:18.916 it's so easy to legally hide your campaign contributions and 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:24.196 give unlimited sums of money to help the candidates of 0:13:24.196 --> 0:13:27.156 your choice, how is it even possible to break the 0:13:27.236 --> 0:13:29.556 law or why would anybody break the law? 0:13:30.716 --> 0:13:36.676 Sloppiness, It's very easy to hide these things and to 0:13:36.796 --> 0:13:42.316 get away with it. You have a designated group that 0:13:43.116 --> 0:13:45.636 is run by someone you know who is going to 0:13:45.636 --> 0:13:47.636 spend the money the way you want it, and you 0:13:47.756 --> 0:13:51.796 give them the money and they do it, and your 0:13:51.836 --> 0:13:55.396 hands are clean. What you don't do is say the 0:13:55.476 --> 0:13:58.556 quiet part out loud. You don't say I am doing 0:13:58.556 --> 0:14:00.876 this and I am breaking the law. 0:14:03.716 --> 0:14:06.916 I'm laughing, because, as we'll hear after the break, Sam 0:14:06.916 --> 0:14:09.916 bagmanfree did say the quiet part out loud, of course 0:14:09.956 --> 0:14:23.076 he did. On background. We'll be right back. I'm back 0:14:23.076 --> 0:14:26.476 with Jordan Livewitz of the Center for Responsibility and Ethics 0:14:26.516 --> 0:14:30.636 in Washington. All right, so let's talk about Sam Beckman Freed, 0:14:30.756 --> 0:14:33.596 who is among the seven hundred and forty two things 0:14:33.596 --> 0:14:37.196 he's accused of is making illegal campaign contributions. What do 0:14:37.276 --> 0:14:39.196 we know about them? I actually, even though I've been 0:14:39.196 --> 0:14:41.876 marinating in this world for eighteen months, I haven't paid 0:14:41.876 --> 0:14:44.636 that much attention to his political life. So you're probably 0:14:44.676 --> 0:14:45.516 going to educate me. 0:14:45.916 --> 0:14:51.196 So there are actually two kinds of illegal political activity 0:14:51.676 --> 0:14:55.436 with Sam Beakmanfried. So the first one is something called 0:14:55.756 --> 0:14:59.716 contributions in the name of another. When you give money, 0:15:00.356 --> 0:15:03.916 there's one really really important rule, and that is it 0:15:03.956 --> 0:15:08.876 has to be your money. So what he is accused 0:15:08.876 --> 0:15:13.036 of knowing is taking money that just people had put 0:15:13.076 --> 0:15:14.516 in their accounts in the business. 0:15:14.636 --> 0:15:16.876 So it's it's it's messy, and it looks like you 0:15:16.916 --> 0:15:20.236 can accuse him of of using other people's money to 0:15:20.236 --> 0:15:24.116 make campaign contributions. Does that happen? How often have you seen. 0:15:23.916 --> 0:15:27.556 That, like taking money out of a business to do that. 0:15:27.636 --> 0:15:29.556 There's pretty much effort. This was a new one for me. 0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:32.796 So this is a new one. But I'm just this 0:15:32.836 --> 0:15:34.916 is what about the general idea of like, I don't know, 0:15:35.036 --> 0:15:37.276 rating your grandmother's bank account and stealing it and giving 0:15:37.316 --> 0:15:39.756 you a politician. Does anybody as any has anybody ever 0:15:39.796 --> 0:15:42.276 been put in jail for taking other people's money and 0:15:42.316 --> 0:15:43.396 giving it to politicians. 0:15:43.876 --> 0:15:47.996 So I remember there was one some years ago where 0:15:49.916 --> 0:15:52.596 basically a guy used his wife's money and tried to 0:15:52.636 --> 0:15:55.996 hide it so she wouldn't know, and he just admitted 0:15:56.036 --> 0:16:01.316 it paid a fine. There's things like that, like contribution 0:16:01.396 --> 0:16:04.356 in the name of another is sometimes you know, I'm 0:16:04.436 --> 0:16:08.596 going to give a bunch of people money to make donations, 0:16:10.116 --> 0:16:12.356 and then you know, all my family and then all 0:16:12.396 --> 0:16:15.316 your family gave maximum donations, but it was really my 0:16:15.436 --> 0:16:18.036 money to begin with. This is the opposite of that. 0:16:18.596 --> 0:16:21.356 This is what you're saying is it's such a rare thing, 0:16:21.676 --> 0:16:26.036 and probably because people never care enough about a politician 0:16:26.076 --> 0:16:27.756 to steal money from others for them. 0:16:28.876 --> 0:16:31.516 Yeah, It's definitely not something we see every day. 0:16:31.956 --> 0:16:33.316 Yeah, right. 0:16:33.956 --> 0:16:38.876 So, he in an interview talked about how while he 0:16:38.916 --> 0:16:43.036 had given thirty some odd million to Democrats, he gave 0:16:43.116 --> 0:16:47.916 pretty much the same thing through dark money donations to Republicans. 0:16:48.756 --> 0:16:51.636 To hide that he was giving Democrats and republicans, he 0:16:51.676 --> 0:16:54.556 wanted to be seen just as the Democrat guy, but 0:16:54.636 --> 0:16:57.796 he was doing these hidden dark money donations to hide 0:16:57.836 --> 0:17:00.676 that was coming from him. And the two rules again 0:17:01.156 --> 0:17:06.276 are that you can't do it explicitly tagged for the politics, 0:17:06.516 --> 0:17:09.716 and you can't do it to hide the decay from you. 0:17:10.236 --> 0:17:12.716 And he just went out and said that, yeah, I 0:17:12.756 --> 0:17:13.796 did both of those things. 0:17:14.876 --> 0:17:16.996 So his crime is confessing it. 0:17:18.116 --> 0:17:21.876 The crime is doing it. But yes, he would have 0:17:21.916 --> 0:17:26.036 gotten away with it hypothetically pretty easily. I mean, there's 0:17:26.036 --> 0:17:29.396 a decent chance that it could come out in the 0:17:29.556 --> 0:17:36.596 course for prosecution as we see where money went. But yeah, 0:17:36.916 --> 0:17:39.036 essentially we would have not known about this kind of 0:17:39.076 --> 0:17:41.276 thing if he did not say it to the press 0:17:41.316 --> 0:17:42.156 that he was doing it. 0:17:42.836 --> 0:17:48.596 How often do people go to jail for campaign finance contributions, 0:17:48.916 --> 0:17:53.196 not taking campaign finance money and like using it for 0:17:53.316 --> 0:17:56.516 other purposes, But how often do donors go to jail 0:17:56.596 --> 0:17:59.636 for how they've given the money? 0:17:59.756 --> 0:18:03.876 Very rarely. It's not something the DOJ tends to bring 0:18:04.076 --> 0:18:04.956 just on its own. 0:18:06.156 --> 0:18:09.756 They use it to season the dish, to make yeah, 0:18:10.116 --> 0:18:12.156 just to make it look like there's more things this 0:18:12.196 --> 0:18:12.796 person did. 0:18:13.476 --> 0:18:18.396 The prosecutions we tend to see are usually for the 0:18:18.516 --> 0:18:22.436 misuse of money after it's been given. 0:18:23.716 --> 0:18:36.396 On background. We'll be right back. I'm back with Jordan Libowitz. 0:18:37.996 --> 0:18:40.556 We're now in this situation where people running the bankruptcy 0:18:40.556 --> 0:18:44.876 at FTX are making the case that you just made 0:18:44.876 --> 0:18:47.396 a little earlier. The money he gave away wasn't his money, 0:18:47.436 --> 0:18:51.556 it was the customer's money, and so the candidates who 0:18:51.596 --> 0:18:55.196 receive this money need to give it back. And first, 0:18:55.196 --> 0:18:58.716 have you ever seen that situation where campaign contributions get 0:18:58.756 --> 0:18:59.356 clawed back? 0:19:00.196 --> 0:19:04.076 So claude back is something we don't see very often 0:19:04.196 --> 0:19:06.596 at all, but is a thing they's likely going to 0:19:06.596 --> 0:19:09.436 happen in this case if it is in a legal 0:19:09.436 --> 0:19:14.116 contribution and found to be one. I believe the VC 0:19:14.276 --> 0:19:16.836 rules already have thirty days to give it back or 0:19:16.876 --> 0:19:18.596 to try to get it to the original person. 0:19:18.876 --> 0:19:22.796 So he could only give a few thousand dollars directly 0:19:22.836 --> 0:19:25.796 to the candidate, right, So the big money was, you know, 0:19:25.916 --> 0:19:29.076 in a dark money entity that the candidate theoretically had 0:19:29.116 --> 0:19:31.476 nothing to do with, that was helping the candidate without 0:19:31.516 --> 0:19:32.756 the candidate knowing how. 0:19:33.356 --> 0:19:36.996 Or to the packs or that gave funds to packs. 0:19:37.356 --> 0:19:40.236 But those super packs presumably can like vanish overnight and 0:19:40.236 --> 0:19:44.436 reappear as something else. I mean, those seems. It seems 0:19:44.476 --> 0:19:46.316 to me like if I had a super pac that 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:48.756 had spent ten million dollars of Sam bankmun Freed's money 0:19:49.116 --> 0:19:51.156 and it looked like I was going to now have 0:19:51.236 --> 0:19:53.356 to give it back, I might just close the superpack. 0:19:54.036 --> 0:19:58.996 Yeah, that is a real problem that we have. It's 0:19:59.076 --> 0:20:01.716 kind of playing whack a mole that we will find. 0:20:03.316 --> 0:20:06.196 We'll find a dark money group that has violated the law, 0:20:06.596 --> 0:20:10.116 file a complaint, and then they've already you know, spend 0:20:10.116 --> 0:20:12.156 all their money. They've shut down shop. They've said we 0:20:12.236 --> 0:20:14.876 no longer exist, we are no longer an entity, and 0:20:14.916 --> 0:20:16.796 they'll go start up another one in another state, do 0:20:16.836 --> 0:20:19.476 it again. By the time you know, we can find them, 0:20:19.516 --> 0:20:21.716 they've shut down, keep moving right. 0:20:22.036 --> 0:20:24.396 So it seems it just seems highly unlikely to me 0:20:24.476 --> 0:20:25.676 that this money is going to come. 0:20:25.516 --> 0:20:29.356 Back if he gave it to I know, he made 0:20:29.396 --> 0:20:35.516 major donations to the potal action committees that back Democrats 0:20:35.876 --> 0:20:39.636 in the House and Senate. Yep, those are not going anywhere. 0:20:40.396 --> 0:20:43.156 Those are not the fly by night organizations. Those are 0:20:43.316 --> 0:20:46.196 the big players. So they're going to be on the hook. 0:20:46.876 --> 0:20:51.996 Oh that's interesting. So they they're stuck right your organization crew, Yeah, 0:20:52.356 --> 0:20:56.516 file an FEC complaint against SBF in late November. Can 0:20:56.556 --> 0:20:59.436 you explain that, like why and what response you've gotten 0:20:59.476 --> 0:21:00.356 and where it might lead. 0:21:01.116 --> 0:21:04.996 Right, So, our complaint was about the dark money. That 0:21:05.116 --> 0:21:06.836 he said that he had given this, that he had 0:21:06.876 --> 0:21:10.756 directed it specifically for certain Bublicans, and that he did 0:21:10.796 --> 0:21:14.476 it to hide his name, which is really silly. 0:21:14.476 --> 0:21:16.756 If he's going to go tell everyone, tell everybody that 0:21:16.836 --> 0:21:20.036 he's done it, why it doesn't really make it doesn't 0:21:20.036 --> 0:21:22.036 really scan this crime. 0:21:23.636 --> 0:21:27.636 Right, So we're asking the FEC to investigate. We haven't 0:21:27.636 --> 0:21:30.956 really heard anything, but the FEC moves at glacial pace, 0:21:31.796 --> 0:21:34.156 so we won't for a while. They have to investigate 0:21:34.196 --> 0:21:37.236 it in their votes and they're more investigations, so it'll 0:21:37.276 --> 0:21:41.076 take a while. But basically two things can come out 0:21:41.076 --> 0:21:44.756 of it. One finds of some sort obviously will not 0:21:44.876 --> 0:21:47.396 be to the level of, you know, the money he 0:21:47.476 --> 0:21:51.636 was playing with, but also being able to see a 0:21:51.756 --> 0:21:54.916 full accounting of how much money this was and where 0:21:54.916 --> 0:21:57.236 it went. The way to fight dark money is to 0:21:57.236 --> 0:21:59.996 bring it out into the open. The whole idea is 0:22:00.116 --> 0:22:04.316 hiding it, so being able to say, hey, he actually 0:22:04.356 --> 0:22:07.716 spent this much money through these groups to help these people. 0:22:08.676 --> 0:22:11.596 It's about transparency and that's what we're working for here. 0:22:12.596 --> 0:22:14.196 But it's not going to change the system. 0:22:14.436 --> 0:22:16.476 No, we need Congress to change the system. 0:22:16.356 --> 0:22:18.556 Because the system still is that the laws are still 0:22:18.596 --> 0:22:20.436 in place to if you're just more a little more 0:22:20.436 --> 0:22:23.196 clever about it, you do this and no one will 0:22:23.196 --> 0:22:25.836 ever know. It's this interesting thing about the game, sort 0:22:25.876 --> 0:22:28.916 of like what the game is now with dark money, 0:22:29.436 --> 0:22:32.476 like who or let's assume that Democrats get as smart 0:22:32.956 --> 0:22:37.876 at using it as Republicans. Okay, they're there now, so 0:22:38.716 --> 0:22:42.876 but then it may become it may become something that 0:22:42.956 --> 0:22:45.836 incumbents like more than challengers. 0:22:46.756 --> 0:22:50.276 You know that that is the problem of having incumbents 0:22:50.316 --> 0:22:54.476 be the ones who who rate the laws, because this 0:22:54.596 --> 0:22:56.276 definitely benefits incumbents. 0:22:56.996 --> 0:22:57.276 Right. 0:22:57.596 --> 0:23:01.956 What we're seeing a lot of bipartisan outrage is there's 0:23:01.996 --> 0:23:07.076 been a lot of dark money campaigning around Supreme Court nominations, 0:23:08.796 --> 0:23:13.836 and for the first time, when Biden announced his pick, 0:23:14.356 --> 0:23:17.196 there was a dark money operation ready to back it, 0:23:18.716 --> 0:23:22.276 and there were a lot of outrage Republicans. Now, there 0:23:22.356 --> 0:23:24.396 was the same kind of thing on the other side 0:23:24.556 --> 0:23:29.796 a couple of years earlier, but no one really likes 0:23:29.836 --> 0:23:33.076 it when there are tens and hundreds of millions of 0:23:33.076 --> 0:23:36.636 dollars being spent against what you want. Yeah, So the 0:23:36.676 --> 0:23:41.476 hope is that, you know, we can find a happy 0:23:41.516 --> 0:23:46.236 medium where enough members of Congress are just done with 0:23:46.276 --> 0:23:50.396 this and want this influence out of politics. 0:23:50.876 --> 0:23:54.436 Okay, how do you feel This is a very wily 0:23:54.556 --> 0:23:57.356 minded question, but how do you feel about Sam Bangmin 0:23:57.396 --> 0:24:00.116 free You've seen You've been sitting in this world of 0:24:00.396 --> 0:24:04.116 people doing kind of nefarious things with dollars in politics. 0:24:05.756 --> 0:24:08.876 Like on your outrage meter, what does he score? 0:24:09.356 --> 0:24:11.236 Oh? I love him. I want them all to be 0:24:11.396 --> 0:24:14.836 like him and be that sloppy and that outrageous that 0:24:14.996 --> 0:24:18.356 everyone is angry at him and he just admits to things. 0:24:18.756 --> 0:24:22.916 Please more, Sam Bankman freeze less people that are running 0:24:22.916 --> 0:24:28.956 it through you know, complex webs of LLCs and five 0:24:28.996 --> 0:24:31.436 oh one c four groups and just moving the money 0:24:31.476 --> 0:24:34.596 between them in ways that it makes you know, you 0:24:34.636 --> 0:24:39.116 need a forensic anthropologist to like figure out just where 0:24:39.116 --> 0:24:41.276 the money is coming from and going to give me 0:24:41.356 --> 0:24:42.956 a guy who's like, yeah, I'm spending a bunch of 0:24:42.996 --> 0:24:44.676 money and I'm also doing some of it illegally. 0:24:45.956 --> 0:24:48.956 He's kind of parodying the system. 0:24:49.716 --> 0:24:52.196 Yeah, and that's because the system as it exists is 0:24:52.356 --> 0:24:58.756 fairly ridiculous. You know, he is the the he is 0:24:58.796 --> 0:25:04.516 the political spender America deserves after putting this system into place. 0:25:04.916 --> 0:25:09.236 But also because he's so outrageous, people get angry about. 0:25:09.676 --> 0:25:11.516