WEBVTT - What's the Best Way to Sit? (And Other Important Questions about Work) 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.519 You're listening to Part Time Genius, a production of Kaleidoscope, 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:12.480 and iHeartRadio. Guess what Will? 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:13.360 What's that? Mango? 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.080 So I had a big writing assignment last week, and 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.279 I was not nearly as productive as I should have been. 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:24.040 I procrastinated, I got distracted, and I kind of pushed 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.120 off the assignment for way too long. 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.120 I like that you're leaving out one key fact that 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.600 you were actually supposed to be on vacation last week. 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.239 I know, but I'd set aside a few hours so 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:36.919 that I could keep some projects on track. And then 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.360 I missed my deadline. So I started doing what I 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.159 always do when i'm behind. I looked up tricks for 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.720 how to work better, and I stumbled into this old 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.120 chestnut about how Victor Hugo used to make sure he 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.199 didn't procrastinate. Basically, whenever he got writer's block, he'd have 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.400 his servant take all his clothes away and leave him 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.280 with only a pen and paper, so we had nothing 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.000 to do but write in the nude, which I guess 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:04.720 is how he hit all his deadlines. 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.120 And also sounds a little bit extreme if you ask me. 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.199 Yeah, But one thing I've been wondering about is whether 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:11.800 it was the fact that he was stuck in his 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:14.240 house without clothes that made him write, or whether it 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.880 was actually being nude that put him in the mood 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.680 to do the writing and inspired him. Like Hemingway wrote 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.360 Nude at a standing desk. Ben Franklin famously took airbats 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.040 where you'd wake up early, you know, sit by a 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.880 drafty window and feel invigorated to journal before going back 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.760 to bed for sort of a wonderful sleep. Churchill Agatha 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:36.960 Christie both worked from the back. So there are a 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:37.840 lot of these folks. 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.080 Wow. But for all our listeners, just to know you 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:41.880 you are not only working right now, but you are 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.360 fully closed as we record. So I'm thankful for that. 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.679 Yeah. Well, you know, I'm too Victorian to work in 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.440 the nude, even in my own house. But hearing those 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.040 facts made me wonder what are the best ways to work? 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.880 So that's what this episode is all about. Let's dive in. 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:19.760 Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.240 Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.359 friend Mangesh hot Ticketter and sitting behind that big booth 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.600 manning the mixing board, doing it like none other and 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.880 actually today he's truly doing it like none other. I 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.600 think he's on a Nordic track. Is that what that is? 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.079 Yeah? I guess some people work from standing desks and 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.320 some people use treadmill dust, but Dylan has decided he's 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:43.880 most productive when he's cross country skiings. 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.280 Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know what, there's sometimes I 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.639 question what Dylan's doing, but this actually feels on brand 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.000 for him. It seems to makes sense for him. But anyway, mego. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.160 You and our researcher Mary Phillip Sandy came up with 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.320 the topic for this week's episode, and it's all about 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.240 what are the best ways to work? So let's talk 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:02.600 about that. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.120 Yeah, and today's episode is kind of a jumble of things. 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.520 Mary and I were brainstorming big questions we could answer 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.600 for the show, and she was like, there are so 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.960 many little things I don't know, Like I sit all 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.480 day and I don't know what's the best way to sit. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.040 And of course, you know, at the time, I was 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.079 crossed like it on my bed, and you know, I 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:24.079 had a cramped neck from hunching forward. So of course 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:25.760 that's one of the things I wanted to know. But 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.359 we thought with so many people working from home now, 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.720 it might be helpful to hear about everything from some 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.800 productivity tips to how to sit to how far you 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.720 need to place your laptop screen from your Nordic track 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:39.880 for ultimate comfort. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.520 Glad we're going to be giving that tip. So all right, 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:44.160 let's figure out where where do we want to start 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:44.600 here today? 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.000 How about with ergonomics, which is such a clunky and 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.640 weird word. But what do you think when you hear 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:54.160 the word ergonomics. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:56.920 You know, as soon as you said it, I kind 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.720 of pictured those wavy keyboards that people started using in nineties, 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.840 or an office full of yoga ball chairs, like we 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.600 saw so many of these, how quickly these took over 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.160 actually our office for a while back in Mental Fluss. 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.280 It was like overnight. It was like an epidemic, Like 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.640 suddenly everyone was either at a standing desk or a 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:17.480 yoga ball and I just kept sitting at a normal 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:19.600 desk with a swivel chair, just like a rube. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:20.640 But it's embarrassing. 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.880 I was thinking about those giant mouse rollerballs that you know, 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:27.880 I don't even know if you remember these, but they 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.719 were like red arcade ball like controllers almost, and they'd 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.159 sit in the middle of something that kind of looked 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.920 like a tiny Tesla truck. But I was also thinking 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.520 about like the first time I'd seen it in my lifetime. 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.799 I remember that my dad brought home this Swedish ergonomic 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.360 chair for our computer in the eighties. It had no 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.000 back and you kind of kneel into it, and every 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.240 single kid who came to my house commented on how 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.200 weird it was. But the whole idea was it was 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.120 supposed to make you sit straight and be better for 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.960 your posture. So, you know, obviously ergonomics has been a 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.240 thing in our lifetime, but I actually had no idea 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:01.640 how old the discipline is. 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.960 And because I have no idea, I think you're baiting 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.280 me into asking you this question. But how old are 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:07.120 we talking about here? 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.520 Yeah? I like how you picked off on my queue there. 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:12.799 Yeah, thank you man. We really work well together. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.440 Mary pulled this research for me from the Berkeley School 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.680 of Public Health website, and apparently ergonomics states back to 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.680 four hundred BCE, all the way back to the ancient Greeks, 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.360 so just a little before the nineteen eighties when my 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.120 dad was Swedish kneeling at his tandy or whatever. But 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.760 According to the site quote, archaeologists have found drawings and 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.000 paintings of chairs with contrad backs and hand tools that 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.359 resemble designs we still use today, which you know is 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:42.760 really remarkable. Yeah. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:44.640 I mean, it's funny to think about, like a stone 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.200 bench with an indentation for your butt to be considered ergonomics, 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.320 but I guess it makes sense, right, Like if you're 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.719 gonna sit comfortably, it makes sense to kind of contour 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:53.600 it more to your body. 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.000 Yeah, And apparently Hippocrates got into the action as well. 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.920 He wrote about how to arrange surgeons to for optimal 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.440 workflow during surgery. So really we've been thinking about how 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.799 best to do our work for a very long time, 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.920 but for our stories purposes. The real study of work 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.640 begins in the seventeenth century, and this is when an 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.800 Italian doctor named Bernardino Ramazzini, which you know is a 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:23.279 great name. For the first time, perhaps he begins to 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:27.440 notice patterns that certain types of work brings certain pains, right, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.200 and he begins looking at why workers are suffering from 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.240 various ailments. He starts by visiting their workplaces, observing how 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.560 they work, and then he does all these interviews to 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.000 understand how their work is affecting their bodies, and this 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.560 is in seventeen hundred. He publishes his observations in a 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.760 book called The Diseases of the Workers. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.479 So if this was seventeen hundred, like, what type of 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:50.640 work is he studying here? 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.160 He studies over one hundred professions and it's everything from 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:59.480 bakers and miller's to fishermen, to stonecutters to glassmakers. He's 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:04.160 also in including athletes and singers. It is surprisingly comprehensive, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.280 and he starts to notice how various violent motions or 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.160 irregular motions, and also waits that these workers are carrying 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.960 daily how that's taking a toll across various classes of workers. 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.520 So would he be considered like the father of ergonomics. 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.440 Then he's more considered the father of occupational medicine. And 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.480 his contribution is mostly in linking repetitive work to pains 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.400 and disorders, but it is interesting he also notes the 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.560 mental stresses on people who are doing things like accounting work. 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.040 These people have to get the numbers right to keep 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.160 their jobs, and so there's immense pressure on them. And 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.600 he's also looking at things like environmental conditions, so he 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.440 notices the breathing difficulties that millers get and the asthma 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.840 that they get from all these like powders and things 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.600 in the air. And he's quoted as saying it's far 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.200 better to prevent than to cure. So he's really. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:55.760 Ahead of his time. 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:57.880 Yeah, no kidding. But to your question. 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.720 About ergonomics, the word ergonomics gets coin in the eighteen 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.520 fifties and this is by a Polish author and it 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.520 kind of means the science of work or laws of work, 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.800 and it isn't really until about one hundred years later 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.040 that it takes on its current meaning of fitting a 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.080 job to a person or a body. But before we 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:17.040 get into that, I want to talk briefly about the 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.880 concept of business management, which arose in the late eighteen hundreds, 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.640 and it is really fascinating to me. So this is 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.960 during the Industrial Revolution, or at least impacted by it, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.840 when industrialization becomes synonymous with work. And just stay with 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.800 me here because it feels like a tangent, but it's not. 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:39.000 Industrials were interested in the idea of efficiency, right, but 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.960 it wasn't like they wanted to protect workers from these 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.440 repetitive stress injuries. As businessmen, their goal was really to 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.280 extract as much value as possible from workers and kind 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.640 of treating their bodies like machines, making the most of 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.760 their bodies. And one consultant who helps figure out how 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.600 to do this is a guy named Frederick W. Taylor, 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.920 who basically believed that workers can always be made to 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.520 produce more and less time with less motion. 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:06.760 Wow, always be made to So he's kind of a 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:07.560 nightmare boss. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.199 Yeah. His work is basically going to take any remaining 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.480 power out of the worker's hands and place it in 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.959 the hands of the bosses. At the time, they call 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.160 it quote scientific management, right, that's the term for it, 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.720 and later they refer to this practice as tailorism. But basically, 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.720 these efficiency engineers, as they were called, we're trying to 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.160 figure out the one best way to do every task 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.640 the quickest and the way they studied this is really incredible. 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.839 This comes from an article in Jacobin magazine and goes 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.719 quote it's hard to overstate how far efficiency engineers went 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.520 to measure and survey of workers' bodies. They used stopwatches, 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.320 photographed and film workers, and tied light bulbs to workers 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:50.840 fingers in order to trace hand movements across long exposure photographs. 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.720 One engineer, Frank Gilbert, disaggregated each finger, shoulder, and foot, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:00.280 plotting individual movements in units in the thousandth of a minute. 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.760 So yeah, I mean, the observation is intense, and they're 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.400 collecting amen's data, and they are analyzing every part of 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:09.319 every single mechanical task. 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:11.520 That is wild. And so what do they do with 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.199 all this data? 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.199 Basically, they're getting paid to make a company more profitable, right, 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.440 So they walk the employees through these studies and point 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.120 out their inefficiencies and show them how to work faster. Basically, 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.600 they fire anyone who refuses or can't keep up. But 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.560 because these are upper class men, they're also trying to 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.840 temp down any class conflicts or resentments that could arise, 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.360 and they're trying to ease this transition into getting people 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.320 to work harder. So they push for pay bonuses based 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.800 on worker efficiency, and workers are incentivized to work faster, 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.400 and that way the workers are at least a little 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.760 happier and managers get more product, which they see as 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:49.720 a win win, I. 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.040 Mean, I guess so. But obviously these bonuses aren't so 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.360 big that anybody's getting rich here, right, The workers can do. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:57.199 A little better, but their bodies are going to take 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.800 a toll for it. And there's an interesting side note here, 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:03.240 a bunch of the more skilled workers start to push back. 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.479 As the Jacobin article points out, quote the diversion experiences 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.840 of machinists and shovelers was pretty illustrative. So the shovelers 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.760 were less organized and easier to replace, and they were 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.520 really pushed to the limit by the efficiency experts. One 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.520 study from the time actually showed that they ended up 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:24.120 heaving two hundred and seventy percent more tonnage than before 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:28.360 the consultants arrived. Wow, so they're working their tails off. 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.760 It is brutal and its backbreaking work. And meanwhile, the 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.240 machinists actually have some leverage. They kind of hold their 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.760 trade secrets close to them and they unionize their response 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.559 and this ends up protecting them because when managers try 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:46.520 to control them, they act collectively and can better dictate terms. Anyway, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.600 this all leads back to ergonomics. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.120 I'm glad you say that, because I was just about 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:51.560 to ask that. 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:56.720 Yeah. So, as tailorism and this mechanization of the human 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.920 body was taking place, workers want to avoid being fit 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.240 leagued all the time, and they want to protect their health. 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.839 So in the nineteen twenties, researchers start making the case 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:09.479 for more humane work and not burning out your workforce. 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.719 There's this conference in Russia, but this movement takes off 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.240 all over and you know, this more humane work is 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:20.920 called ergology, which later becomes ergonomics, which you know later 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.079 translates into offices that are wall to wall with yoga 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:24.800 ball chairs. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.439 Finally we got there. That was that was worth it though, Manga. 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:30.960 That was actually very interesting, and I know there's more 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.439 story to get to, but I also know we're talking 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.959 about the best ways to work, and one thing that 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.920 people definitely want to know is some definitive answer on 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.000 how to sit and not destroy their bodies because you 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.200 hear so much about the damage that it does to 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:45.160 sit for so long. 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:47.800 Yeah, so I'm glad you took this on because I'm 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:49.720 very curious about this. So tell me. 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:51.880 Well, one of the first places to go to if 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.480 you thinking about anything health related is the Mayo Clinic. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:56.319 So I decided to go to the website and look 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:58.920 at the guidelines there. Now, before you start working, you'll 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:02.199 want to pull out a tape measure and possibly a protractor. 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.400 If you don't know what a right angle is, or 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.880 if you've got those ready, I'll continue here. One your 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.480 knees should be about level with the hips when you 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.320 are seated, with your thighs parallel to the floor, So 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.760 clearly sitting on a high stool or a bean bag 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.680 is not ideal. Two your hands should be at or 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.679 below elbow level with the wrist straight. Three. If your 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.240 desk has a hard edge, you should pad the edge 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.040 to protect your wrist from the contact stress. So this 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.960 includes laptops, Like if you're resting your wrist on a 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.600 hard laptop, you'll want padding there. And four, if you're 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.120 using a monitor, that should be no closer to you 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.880 than twenty inches and no further away than forty inches, 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:43.920 and you'll want the top of the screen to be 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.800 at or slightly below eye level. Now I have to admit, 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.200 when I read many of these things, I violated almost 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:52.840 every single one of them. 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.120 I also have no idea how far my computer screen 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:57.360 is for me any time. 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.080 Yeah, on that at air inches. I don't know about you. 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:01.760 Like on a table, I can do it, but air 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:03.479 inches is not my specialty. 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.360 I also feel like I assume it must be like 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.480 twenty to forty inches from my face at all times, 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:11.720 but except when I don't have my glasses on and 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:16.240 then it's pressed up against my face. Is that distance 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.000 for your eyesight or is it for neck I posture reasons? 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.840 Why is that distance so important? It actually prevents both 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.080 eyestrain and next strain. Though, if you're looking to protect 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.240 your eyes, the other thing you're supposed to do is 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.440 follow the twenty twenty twenty rules. So this is where 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.080 every twenty minutes you're supposed to take a twenty second 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.840 break to look at an object twenty feet away. This 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:42.200 rule was developed by an optometrist from California name Jeffrey Anshell, 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:44.920 and this was a way to help people avoid headaches 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.920 and eyestrain. But you can also close your eyes for 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.440 twenty seconds and that has a similar kind of effect. 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.600 Twenty seconds doesn't feel like long enough, Like, yeah, that's 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.520 almost teasing my brain into thinking it's taking a nap. 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.440 We've covered angle you should say at and how far 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.000 your screen should be from your face, But what about 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.640 the whole like sitting standing treadmill desk argument, Like what's 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:09.640 the optimal way to work on that front? 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.320 You know, the ideal seems to be alternating between sitting 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.320 and standing, because sitting for too long or being sedentary 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.800 increases your risk for a whole host of different diseases. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.560 I mean everything from Parkinson's two strokes, to cancers, two 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.640 diabetes to Alzheimer's. Like, it's really as interesting looking at 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.160 the list and terrifying at this list of you know, 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:30.280 sort of tied back to this. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.320 It's so scary like that sitting for long periods can 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.200 increase your chances of getting six. So how much do 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.240 I have to alternate for this? 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.440 You'll need to turn to the International Ergonomics and Human 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.560 Factors Association, which I don't think you knew a whole 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.720 lot about before this episode, and they recommend sitting for 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.040 ten minutes, then standing up for five, and then repeating 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.280 that throughout the day. So not too bad. 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.520 First of all, please don't make any assumptions, because that 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:57.000 is my homepage. I could. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.840 Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have assumed. 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:02.960 But I also don't know how you're supposed to remember 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:04.640 to do that like all the time. Like I feel 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:06.240 like the only way I can remember is if my 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.720 desk automatically lifted and lowered like every five and ten minutes. 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.000 It just feels kind of impractical. Plus you've got to 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.680 close your eyes or look twenty feet away every twenty minutes, 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.360 so like none of those numbers really line up. 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.400 Yeah, yeah, it's it's uh, it's interesting. I mean, if 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.760 you can't pull off the ten minutes sitting, five minutes 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.720 standing routine, there's an alternative that can help your workflow. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.520 You can work for twenty minutes, take a two minute 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.440 active break. That's like second best option here. But when 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.400 you do that, you can also close your eyes for 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:40.040 the first twenty seconds or just naturally look around. But 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.640 hopefully you're not taking this active break and closing your 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.280 eyes for the first twenty seconds, because that seems dangerous 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:46.720 as well. 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:49.960 I also like that you've ranked these like, I guess 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.280 I've got a whole list, right, I'm gonna go with 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.840 option too, But is there a third place? The truth is, like, 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.800 if you're writing or researching, I feel like you get 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:00.560 in a flow and then you just forget time. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.240 Yeah, I mean, it actually would be good to make 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.280 time for that two minute break, just because it's helpful 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.840 for anyone with a history of diabetes in the family. 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.800 And I know you have some in the family as well, 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.800 and according to the site, getting up more frequently can 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.920 quote lower your post prandial glucose and insulin levels, which 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.480 means that avoiding sitting for long periods of time can 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.199 actually be an effective way of reducing the risk of 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:25.439 type two diabetes. 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.960 That's amazing and I wonder you know, as people start 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:32.240 adapting more to this information, if it's like during the SATs, 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.480 we'll see kids just standing up in the middle of 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.000 a section and running in place to keep their diabetes away. 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:38.600 It kind of makes sense. 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.800 Well, there's one other suggestion if you can't keep standing 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.760 at work or take frequent breaks, and that's the stop, 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:46.280 drop and flop. 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.680 I go. I love the branding. What's the stop, drop 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:51.200 and flop? 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.040 So it's exactly what it sounds like. After you send 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:56.600 an email or finish a task, you stop what you're doing, 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.000 let your shoulders drop, flop, your hands down by your side, 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.639 and give yourself a little bit of a stretch break. 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.439 But actually, let's talk a little bit more about sitting, 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.600 because we all know we do this a lot, or 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:09.560 many of us do this a lot as we're working. 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:12.840 So let's talk about how to best sit for optimal help. 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.800 Yeah, I'm guessing sitting cross legged on stools and chairs 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.160 with my laptop on my lap probably isn't the best way. Yeah. 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.120 I actually don't see anybody advocating for that, and I'm 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.159 guilty of it as well. I mean, the bottom line 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.720 is that chairs are complicated. So I was looking at 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:32.240 self dot com. They interviewed a board certified physical therapist 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.760 and an orthopedic specialist about this very topic. And there 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.679 are just a lot of components here, but mostly you 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.679 want a firm, flat cushion chair, good Lombard support, Like 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.680 a lot of really nice cushiony chairs have that seat 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.160 tilted upward in the front, and that actually puts stress 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:53.360 on your spine and tilts your pelvis backwards, which isn't 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:53.800 that kind. 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.800 Of like how we all drive. I guess that's bad 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:56.920 for long periods of time. 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.200 Yeah, it's straining the wrong parts. Like basically, you want 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:02.679 to be sitting upright with a straight back, so not 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.880 leaning forwards or backwards, because tilting either way puts pressure 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.199 on your shoulders and on your neck. And according to 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.840 this same piece, you also want to scoot your bottom 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:14.920 all the way to the back of the chair, because, 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.080 as the article says, otherwise you will be sitting on 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.080 your sacram and stressing your back. 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.120 So how do you know if you're sitting right? 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.400 Well, basically, if you're upright, your feet are on the floor, 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.399 your hips are square, and you're not tilting forward, then 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:30.280 you're doing it. 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:34.120 Right, which sounds like sticking a perfect landing and gymnastics 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.680 or something. It feels like exactly chair setting should be 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.040 its own sport. But I feel like we've been chatting 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.439 for a bit and I am overdue for my stop, 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:43.440 drop and flop, which I do all the time now, 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:45.600 So why don't we take a two minute break and 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.879 we'll be back with more part Time Genius after these commercials. 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.640