WEBVTT - Forensic Dentistry 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.920 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:13.320 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.239 Chuck and Jerry's not here, but she's here in spirit. 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.880 We're all flashing our pearly whites because we're in a 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.759 lineup and this is stuff I. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.759 Tried, or my case, front four of my pearly off whites, 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:30.800 because when they made me my new set of four 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.000 teeth to go upfront to replace my four teeth, they 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.839 were too white and they looked weird. Oh really, And 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:38.760 they said we can send them back and have them 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.240 staining them just a bit more, and I went, yeah, 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:42.280 we're gonna have to do that. 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:45.520 Like Matt Dylan, and there's something about Mary. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:51.760 They weren't quite chick lit white, but they were enough 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:53.840 to where they looked a little different than the others. 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:55.600 And the others are just gonna, you know, as teeth 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:58.240 do continue to stay in a bit. So yeah, it's like, yeah, 0:00:58.280 --> 0:00:59.880 why don't we go ahead and knock it down? 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:02.880 And you should have just smoked a bunch of cigarettes, right, 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:04.559 done it yourself, saved some money. 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.080 I don't think these implants will. That's the problem is 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:09.679 they don't stain, while the others are. 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.240 Oh okay, well then yeah, you definitely need to hand 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:15.119 those off for staining in the lab. 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.080 Yeah, I'm like, well, I was just smoked eighties cigarettes, 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.280 so today another and I thought we were done with forensics, 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.559 But who knew that lurking out there was the topic 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:30.240 of forensic dentistry, which we will learn very quickly as 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.320 in right now kind of can be divided up into 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:40.240 two things, which is identification of deceased people or peoples 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.520 from dental records, like when you hear like you know, 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:45.280 they perished in the fire, but they were able to 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:51.400 identify the body, and the much more controversial bite mark 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:56.720 analysis that had been widely used in court and is 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:01.120 now generally thought of by most dentists and people in 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:02.600 this line of work as junk science. 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.960 Yeah, it's I mean, just from researching this, it's like, 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.359 what kind of judge is still allowing this in as evidence? 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:10.119 It's crazy. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:11.680 Yeah. 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:13.720 Yeah, So I guess I just revealed my take on 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:18.040 forensic dentistry or bitemark analysis specifically, because the other version 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:24.680 you said identifying deceased people is really no, it's not. 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:28.959 It's pretty much set. Most I didn't read anybody who 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.160 was challenging it or it's legitimacy, And apparently it's been 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:36.120 really useful over the years because the teeth are the 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.760 strongest part of the body. They can survive fire, they 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.440 can survive exposure to chemicals that could just get rid 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:47.200 of the rest of the body. They can survive explosions 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.120 up to I think two thousand degrees fahrenheit. They can 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.079 take heat up to that as anyone who's made it 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.920 far enough in breaking bad nose that eventually, if it 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.160 gets hot enough, they'll pop like popcorn. But most of 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.800 the time, if a dead person who's unidentifiable comes into 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.800 a medical examiner's office, they have not been exposed to 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:06.680 that level of heat. 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.200 Yeah, and even if the teeth themselves are struggling to 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.919 hang in there, tooth pulp or dental tissue on the 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:19.200 inside of that tooth is very resistant to environmental attacks 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:23.920 like incineration, immersion, like you can be underwater for well, 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.880 I was about to say a million years, but that's 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:32.079 probably not true, but immersion, trauma, decomposition, So extracting DNA 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:34.639 from the inside of a tooth is a pretty viable thing. 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.240 But before nineteen seventy four, all you really had going 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:45.000 was identifying victims of a disaster, usually a natural disaster 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:48.760 or human cause disaster. They did not really get into 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.200 crime scene stuff. Because in nineteen seventy five is when 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.320 that first became permissible in court, where a murder victim 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.680 had a bite on her nose and three forensic dentists 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.160 came along and said, hey, it's pretty clear this bite 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:09.720 came from this person. It should be maybe the exception 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.800 to the rule, but we should allow it in court 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:12.280 this time. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.120 Yes, And that was a very fateful decision because as 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:19.760 that case made its way through appeals and a final 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:24.920 appellate court upheld it, that also simultaneously not only convicted 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:29.960 the killer, it also it said, this is legitimate. Bitemark 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.960 analysis is admissible in court. It's set a precedent, and 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.440 that exception that those three forensic dentists in their defense, 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.560 you know, went to batfor for use in this particular case, 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.880 became the rule. And there was no longer like, hey, 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.680 this is not actually that great of an idea. It was, hey, 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.400 we've got this new way of prosecuting scumbags. Let's use 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.160 it to the max. And there was a really famous 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.280 case within just a couple of years of it becoming 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.839 widely used in American court sorts. That's still celebrated today. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:06.240 Is one of the great successes of bitemark analysis because 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:10.360 it's not like every single case is worse than the last. Yeah, 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.480 but there's enough bad cases and enough people who've been 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:17.360 wrongly convicted and later exonerated based on bite mark evidence 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.120 that it should not It's not it should not be allowed. 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.600 You just go figure out who did it some other way. 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.240 Stop using bite mark analysis. 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:30.840 Yeah, dozens of people, according to the Innocence Project. And 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:35.280 we should point out from nineteen seventy five until just recently, 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.240 like twenty sixteen is when they finally made affirm decision, 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:42.200 which you know, we'll hold onto that one, but that's 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.159 really when things changed. But I think the case that 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:49.120 you were talking about is I've forgotten Ted Bundy. In 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.640 nineteen seventy eight, a notorious serial killer Ted Bundy would 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.919 sort of wind up his serial killing career by wandering 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.560 into the Kyomegas already house at Florida State University and 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:08.240 bludgeoning and killing for students at sorority sisters there, including 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.120 one victim where he bit her and left very clear 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.320 bite marks. And those bite marks were instrumental in Ted 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:17.120 Bundy's conviction. 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:21.400 Yeah, the two Kyomega women were who were who died 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.359 who did not manage to live with Lisa Levy and 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.400 Margaret Bowman. But he did some pretty terrible damage to 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.960 some the other the other two, I guess. But that 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:36.440 bitte mark apparently Ted Bundy had extremely crooked front teeth, 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:39.440 so much so and the bite mark was clear enough 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.599 that they used that bitemark analysis in part to convict 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.960 him for those murders. Those were he apparently admitted to 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.480 killing thirty women, possibly killed as many as one hundred 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.120 and so one of the one of the cases he 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.000 was prosecuted for were the Kyo Omega murders. 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:00.960 Yeah, that's right. So that's a good setup. We should 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.080 just mention sort of as far as the identification, the 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:09.520 non controversial part. Adults usually have thirty two teeth, foreign sizers, 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:12.640 four canines, eight pre molars, twelve molars, and four wisdom 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.520 depending on if you still have those. And when you 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.760 go to the dentist, they you know, we've been to 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.200 the dentist, and they do a lot of notating. They 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.040 notate your teeth variations in your teeth changes in your teeth, 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.960 if you chip a tooth, any dental work you've gotten, 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.600 like crowns or fillings or bridges, or in my case 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:37.160 for implants, periodontal disease, receding gums. There are x rays 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:39.840 and there are just the tooth charts. And these are 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.320 the dental records that we speak of when they say, 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.560 you know, a body was identified, you know via dental records. 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.440 It's because of all this work that you get over 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.600 the years at the dentist. I guess if you, well, 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:55.800 this doesn't have so much to do with bitemark analysis, 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.200 I guess it could, but the records that seem like 0:07:58.240 --> 0:07:59.800 are mainly about identification. 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.280 Yeah, and also by laws, I think every state requires 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:08.160 dentists to keep dental charts on their patients, and then 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.320 they also have to retain them for set number of years, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.360 depending on which state demands what. So they do come 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:18.040 in handy just the charts alone. Well, like, there's not 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.240 going to be x raysed with them necessarily, there's not 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.400 going to be any photographs just from the charts, and 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:29.000 the the coding systems that they've worked out to codify 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:35.040 teeth can conceivably give you enough information that you could 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.439 use it in some form of forensic dentistry. That's how 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:39.760 accurate the charts are meant to be. 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:42.800 Yeah, for sure. So you know, we mentioned all the 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:47.400 ways teeth can hang in there and stay you know, 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:49.440 a part of your skull, and when other parts of 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:54.640 your body have deteriorated, teeth can shrink, they can become fragile, 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:59.200 but if you handle them gently and with care, you 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:03.000 can preserve them and lacquer. And what will happen if 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.920 you need to identify corpse usually is a dentist will 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.560 go to the morgue. They will surgically expose the jaw 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.920 and examine things. That's if you have, like you know, 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:18.000 a pretty recent dead body that hasn't decomposed too much. 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.000 If all you've got is a handful of teeth, that 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.400 still maybe enough due to those X rays and charts. 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.560 But if it's mass casualties, a dentist is gonna and 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.720 these are forensic dentists, by the way, it's a specialty. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.000 They get a list of possible victims and then you know, 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.720 you start comparing different records of the different people to 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:39.920 try and sort out who is who. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.080 Yeah, Yeah, it takes a special kind of dentist to 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.440 do this kind of work, because by the time the cadaver, 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.240 the corpse has made it to the forensic dentist, everybody 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:56.199 else upstream has said, like, no, they don't have fingerprints, 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.200 their face is unrecognizable. It just keeps going on and 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.599 on and on until finally your last chance of identifying 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.199 the person is forensic dentistry. And they'll often, i mean, 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.679 like if it's a mass casualty, you know, you know 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.160 who is on the plane. Apparently that's when it comes 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.760 in handy a lot for plane crashes. You know, all 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.600 the passengers on the plane, You go get their dental records, 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.040 You hand them over to the forensic dentists and say, 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.400 good luck, can you match any of these teeth with 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.720 these charts? And they're they're i mean, they're a huge 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:29.319 part of a forensic team in like mass casualty events. 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.959 They're they're really important because again they're like the last 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.920 hope of some families getting closure, being able to like 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.440 give their loved one a funeral or something like that. 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.120 Like that's the role that they're they're playing. They're not 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.160 doing this because they like just playing with dead people's 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.800 teeth or anything like that. Like they are helping other 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:53.600 humans with their work by identifying disaster victims. I'm not 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.520 extending that to bitemark analysis. 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.960 Yeah, yeah, for sure. There's a lot of things you 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.280 can sort of glean from looking at a person's teeth 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:06.000 about that person. It's not the most exact science, but 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.000 we know generally how fast teeth grow, about four micro 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.839 meats per day, So you can estimate someone's age based 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:14.480 on their teeth. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.960 Well, not only that, you can also like when your 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.680 teeth develop as a human, it follows a set pattern. Yeah, 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.560 so you can go and look at somebody's development, especially 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.520 if they're underage, I think twenty something or thirty five, 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.320 and say, well, they have they've developed this tooth, but 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:36.640 they haven't developed this tooth, so they're yeah, probably eighteenish. 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:39.439 Yeah, exactly. They can get it in a wheelhouse. Sometimes 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.319 you can learn a little bit about someone's ethnicity because 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.240 you know, some ethnicities have teeth that are a little different. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:51.319 Apparently some Native Americans and some Asian people have incisors 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:56.400 that have scooped out backs. You can determine sometimes some 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:00.480 socioeconomic background. If there's you know a lot of really 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.560 expensive restoration work, that'll tell you that they probably had 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.880 a lot of money or you know, at least money 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:09.560 to afford that. Also, the methods that are used are 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:11.720 used in some parts of the world and not in others, 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:17.240 like some geographic areas. Person's lifestyle, like if they were 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.760 a smoker, this is kind of fun. If you're a 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.560 pipe smoker, man, if you play the play the bagpipes, Yeah, 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.559 you have a very distinctive wear pattern on your teeth. 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.120 Did you see any pictures of a skull with a 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:32.800 with a where from pipe smoking? Yeah, it's crazy. It's 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:37.480 like the person's teeth like curve up at some point, 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:39.360 like I'm basically I think it was the right side 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.240 of their face just from holding a pipe in their 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:43.720 teeth for years and years and years. 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.800 Yeah, and then just sort of the obvious stuff like 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.880 a family member saying like, no, they were definitely missing 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.880 that tooth or that that you know, that distinctive crown 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:59.640 with the diamond CWB for Charles W. Chuck Bryant, I know, 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.640 I can't believe you got that. Still that was definitely 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:07.160 their mouth or that tooth was broken. So beyond just 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:09.960 dental records, like family members can sometimes help out. 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.600 I also saw another lifestyle. One was something called a 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.960 tailor's notch. This is pretty arcane, but if you find 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.480 a tailor's notch, there's a chance that this was a dressmaker, 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.800 a tailor or something like that, because they hold pins 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.120 in their mouths. 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:25.560 Oh yeah, as part of their. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.680 Profession, usually in their teeth, and when you do that 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.240 enough times, it actually wears a little indentation in the 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.840 tooth that you normally hold the the sewing needle in. So, 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.000 do you want to talk about the Black Death or 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:38.800 just keep moving on. 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.880 Let's take a break. Okay, all right, we'll take a 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.559 break and we'll talk about the Black Death and then 0:13:45.920 --> 0:14:12.920 dive into the more controversial bitemark analysis. 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.800 So we promised talk about the Black Death. Apparently one 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:23.720 of the high profile I guess forensic dentistry cases recently 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:28.160 was a study that looked at the teeth of or 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.840 I think it extracted DNA from the pulp of the 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:35.160 teeth of medieval villagers who died from the plague. And 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.800 I guess they were able to exclude the plague in 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.840 some cases, like people had died and it was falsely 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:46.120 attributed to death from the plague. That seems almost inconsequential 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:47.840 to me because the other thing that they did was 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:52.640 definitively prove that you're seeing a pestis, which is a 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:57.520 bacteria I think, a bacteria that's carried by fleas typically, 0:14:58.080 --> 0:14:59.880 So the rats came to town, the fleas around the 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.000 so the bacteria was on the fleas, and that's what 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.120 spread the black death, that's what they've long said. And 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.840 they extracted that from the DNA of the pulp of 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.920 teeth of medieval people who died from the plague definitely 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.840 died from the plague, and said, yep, here's your smoking gun. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:21.320 There's your problem, right, Yeah, And it was something this old. 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:25.520 A DNA isn't readily available. M DNA mitochondrial DNA can 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:26.560 also be very useful. 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.960 And I also saw the oldest tooth that they successfully 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.200 sequenced a genome from by extracting DNA from the pulp 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.480 was six thousand years old, from about four thousand BCE. 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.720 Back in two thousand and five. They managed to do that, 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.720 and you know, those people are still talking about, like 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.240 I did I ever tell you about the four thousand 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.480 BCE tooth we extracted DNA from? 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:53.680 Yeah, oh boy, the smell of that toothbulp O Oh good. 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.280 God, that was awful. I was not expecting that. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:57.800 All right. So now this is where things get a 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.240 little hinky, because we're going to talk about the other 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.760 aspect of forensic dentistry, which is the very controversial, very 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:09.440 complex bite mark analysis, which and we'll get to the 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.320 admissibility of it now in a bit. But they still 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.560 do collect the evidence, which you know you should do. 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.000 I don't think anyone's saying, like, hey, stop even doing 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.360 this as far as evidence collection goes. But here's how 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.840 they do that. If you see a bite mark or 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.200 anything you think is a bitemark in a like a 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.200 murder case, Let's say you call in that forensic dentist 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.360 who's just sitting around like so happy. They don't have 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.240 their hands in a live human being's mouth at the time, right, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.480 And they got to do it quick because time is 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:42.800 of the essence, because bite marks can change a lot 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.880 pretty quickly, and especially if a body has been deteriorating 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:50.840 for a few days, like the location of that bite 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:54.080 may be entirely different because the skin is slipping and shrinking. 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:59.440 Yeah, that's a big one. Also, bruising and lividity can 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.240 also obscure a bite mark or change it or alter it, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.399 so they often have to wait for the bruise to 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.399 heal if the humans still alive, or wait for the 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.120 lividity the pooling of blood to just kind of come 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.480 and go before they really examine it. 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.920 Yeah, they're going to take pictures with a ruler next 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:20.840 to it. You've probably seen that in some movies I have. 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:22.720 I saw in Silence of the Lambs. 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.840 Right, oh, yeah, that's right. Bite photography is very specific 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.560 and very precise, or at least it should be, and 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.560 then you can magnify those photos and stuff. But while 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.159 they're doing this, the first thing that they're going to 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.080 identify is like was it a human bite or not? 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.280 And seems like a no brainer, like I could even 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.600 tell sure, But you found a study from twenty fifteen 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:46.040 that doesn't quite hold up. I mean, that's about animals 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:47.280 and human differences, right. 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.080 Yeah, there was a twenty fifteen study that found they 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:57.800 used thirty nine experts. These were Board certified Forensic odontologists 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:02.760 or members of the American Board of Forensic Odeontologists, the 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.639 crediting body. I don't know why I went into that 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.200 much detail, but there you have it. The official people 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.879 in this study with this thirty nine experts. They showed 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.639 one hundred photographs of bite marks and said, okay, we 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.639 want some information about this. Are these Let's just start 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.920 with is this a human bitemark or an animal bitemark? 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.399 The easiest thing in the world. Was this a dog 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.040 or an adult human biting this person? 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:31.080 Exactly? And only eight percent of the photographs, so eight 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.480 of one hundred photographs. I just did that, meth and 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.280 I'm quite confident it's correct. 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:36.240 Yeah, you nailed it. 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.399 Could ninety percent of those experts. I don't know what 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:43.960 ninety percent of thirty nine is come to consensus that yes, 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.119 this is definitely human or yes this is definitely animal. 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.800 They did not believe. Yeah, they did not agree on 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.320 the other ninety two photographs. 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.119 Yeah, I would think human and animal would be pretty 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.879 easy to tell the difference of you know, apparently not. 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:03.160 Yeah, actually if the animals wearing human dentures at the time, right, 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.439 good point. Yeah, like that. You know that cartoon wolf 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:13.439 from the old timey nineteen thirties cartoon. I don't think 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.639 I know that, Oh, sure you do. He was always 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:17.640 like his eyes would pop out of his head and like. 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:19.640 He was oh yeah, you know, like uh yeah, yeah, 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:20.240 I gotcha. 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:22.240 So what else, Chuck? 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.000 Well, this is a pretty disturbing but I guess helpful 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.679 thing that I never knew. After they inspect the body 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.960 for the bite marks and all that stuff, they will 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:37.280 actually cut out the bike mark and preserve it. 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:39.040 They're like, can I take this home? 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:41.840 Yeah, So they will cut the bipe mark from the skin, 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.000 preserve it and formaldehyde, and then make a silicone cast 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.800 of the bite mark, which makes total sense. I just 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.119 never thought about how gross that would seem. 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.520 Yeah, it is pretty gross. I mean, the whole process 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:56.160 from starting to finish is fairly gross. 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:58.800 In that case, what kind of bite marks though they 0:19:58.840 --> 0:19:59.320 can they make? 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:03.800 Well, I'm based on the kind of transfer pattern is 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.119 what they call it. And it's not just specific to 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.920 forensic idontology transfer patterns or what you're looking at when 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:14.000 you look at the rifling on a bullet to try 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.680 to identify what gun it came out of, which also 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.359 apparently is junk science fingerprints. You're transferring your fingerprints, so 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.840 it leaves a transfer pattern. Same thing with forensic idontology, 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.840 and the different kinds of forensic patterns are based on 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.159 the damage that the bites do. So if it scrapes, 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.200 like if you're I don't need to put it any 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.840 other way. That's considered an abrasian bite. 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:36.600 Yeah. 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:41.520 And artifact is when, yeah, when there's an actual part 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.280 of the body missing from because of the bite. It's 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.760 not just a bite mark, there's actually tissue or something missing, 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:51.200 like an ear lobe. I think is like Evander Holyfield's 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:52.160 ear lobe. 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.720 Yeah, I was, I'd say mac Tyson bite. 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:56.360 So he's got a fight on Friday. 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.560 Oh is he fighting that guy Friday on Netflix? Shoot, 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:02.960 I'm not even gonna be here. I want to see that. 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.000 I'll tape it for you on the VCR. 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.000 You take it all right to me the tape. We 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.879 also have evulsions, that is when just some of the 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.879 skin is removed, and I guess not an entire piece 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.040 of the body. You have contusions, which is of course 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.760 a bruise. If it's profusely bleeding, it's a hemorrhage. If 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:23.720 it's a nice clean neat wound, then you have a 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.560 very precise spider and they call that an incision. And 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:28.600 then a puncture wound is a laceration. 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:34.119 Yes, And then there's also the different like depths or 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:38.320 the obviousness of the bite mark is another category that 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.720 they use, and it starts from lowest to highest. It 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.119 took me a minute to figure this out because I 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:46.920 don't think the wording they used is really good. Agree, 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.159 a clear impression means that there was significant pressure used. 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:55.560 That's the lowest of the three categories. Yes, an obvious 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.840 one signifies medium pressure, which that to me just just 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.840 like shows that this is not accurate science. Medium is 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:08.280 a type of fry order, French fry order, not the 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.600 you know, depth of a bite mark, like medium is 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:15.199 so subjective, right, Yeah, all three of these are and 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:17.879 then noticeable. That seems to me like that would be 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:22.600 the least of the three. That's the most, the most 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:26.080 pronounced bite mark of all, because the biter used violent 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:27.120 pressure to bite down. 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:35.840 Yeah, it should be obvious. Oh my god, and holy crap, 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.240 for the love of god, what was this person doing? 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:43.280 Yeah, for sure. There's also some some other things that 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:49.040 the bier can do during the biting, if they you know, 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:51.679 if they like use their jaw a bunch. It's not 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:53.720 just like one bite where they clamp down. If they 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.440