Speaker 1: Warning.
Speaker 2: Today's episode cad spoilers for the final season and the
Speaker 2: series finale of Stranger Things.
Speaker 3: You warned.
Speaker 1: O What Happy New Year.
Speaker 2: My name is Jason Concepcion And on Mersey.
Speaker 3: Night, We're back. We're back.
Speaker 2: It's the new year. Everything's great, everything is perfect.
Speaker 1: World is going on.
Speaker 2: And welcome back to kes revision of the podcast where
Speaker 2: we dive thee to your favorite shows, movies, comics of
Speaker 2: pop culture coming from my heart. We're bringing you three
Speaker 2: episodes week last News.
Speaker 3: In today's episode, Joel and Aaron are joining us to
Speaker 3: deep dive into the sensory deprivation tank to react to
Speaker 3: Stranger Things season five finale. Together, we'll talk through what worked,
Speaker 3: what didn't, the ambiguous ending, the cultural impact of the
Speaker 3: show over the last ten years, and how it looked
Speaker 3: in a fit, which is where I saw it. But
Speaker 3: first into the century deprivation type.
Speaker 2: We go in. Okay, let's bring in super producers Joe
Speaker 2: Ellen Aaron to discuss the long I was actually stunned
Speaker 2: when I realized how long this show has been crazy streaming.
Speaker 2: It's been a decade.
Speaker 3: A decade.
Speaker 2: We dive into the final season. Aaron Jowell, Welcome.
Speaker 3: How's he goesy?
Speaker 4: Excited to be here and to talk about our favorite
Speaker 4: upside down?
Speaker 5: Is this the only upside down?
Speaker 3: I guess it's the only one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the only?
Speaker 1: Well is this?
Speaker 2: I mean that's kind of my questions. Well, let's quickly discuss.
Speaker 2: I will say there were no I personally, here's my
Speaker 2: takeaway quick take. I have no issues that didn't exist
Speaker 2: in previous seasons with the season finale, and I liked it.
Speaker 2: I thought the finale worked well. I thought it probably
Speaker 2: I thought it worked the best for me than almost
Speaker 2: any episode of this season, probably almost any episode of
Speaker 2: the season. I'm a sucker for nostalgia.
Speaker 1: I liked it.
Speaker 2: Uh, what is everybody's quick take? Rosie start?
Speaker 3: I saw it in the movie theater at first. I
Speaker 3: saw it in the Egyptian and on New Year's Day,
Speaker 3: and I have to say, seeing it on the big screen,
Speaker 3: and we'll get into this later, was an extremely different
Speaker 3: experience and overall a very positive one. In that theater,
Speaker 3: it was very clear that this was like endgame for
Speaker 3: a lot of people, and also visually it looked so
Speaker 3: much better on the big screen than the finale looked
Speaker 3: on the TV. And that to me is a problem
Speaker 3: which we'll get into later, but generally I went in
Speaker 3: with lowish expectations and the spectacle of it all and
Speaker 3: the huge big screen and taking my friends who loved
Speaker 3: the show made me enjoy it a lot more, which
Speaker 3: was a nice way to end it. Aaron and Joel,
Speaker 3: how do you feel an act?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm basically exactly the same as you, Jason. Like
Speaker 4: anything that didn't work for me in the show before,
Speaker 4: this didn't change that. But this worked really well within
Speaker 4: the context of the show, and I thought, like Rosie,
Speaker 4: you know you brought up endgame. I kind of thought
Speaker 4: the final fight against Vecna the mind flare had hints
Speaker 4: of the first Avengers movie, where we have very different
Speaker 4: scopes of what everyone can do, but they all feel
Speaker 4: somewhat useful at some point in that fight, which I enjoy, and.
Speaker 3: They come together with that skills.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I was very happy with it.
Speaker 4: It was the perfect thing to sit down at like
Speaker 4: eleven am January first and watch.
Speaker 3: On the couch.
Speaker 5: I think, Joelle, what about you?
Speaker 1: I'm met at all of you. I think it's rude
Speaker 1: as hell. I like, I had a lot of issues.
Speaker 1: I was not having fun.
Speaker 6: I thought the length of a Finelle maybe want to scream.
Speaker 6: And I had just seen fire and and I was like,
Speaker 6: I've never met.
Speaker 1: A person who's like, make it shorter, thank me. To
Speaker 1: be sure. I love long pod. I'll listen to a
Speaker 1: three hour pod. I love an epically long movie.
Speaker 6: But these two experiences back to back was absolute torture.
Speaker 6: And then on top of that, y'all not giving me
Speaker 6: like answers. I'm just out here too, wondering if my
Speaker 6: main character is alive or not. I it's sense, and
Speaker 6: you brought brown people back to kill them.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're gonna talk about that, so let's okay, let's
Speaker 3: talk about that.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about some of the unanswered questions, because I
Speaker 2: think we got some nice closure. I quite enjoyed the
Speaker 2: extended coda, but let's talk about the un well.
Speaker 3: I want to no, no, no, I just want to
Speaker 3: quickly bring something up about the coda, because I also
Speaker 3: really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 3: I thought it was actually so good and I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: Lord of the Rings, blah blah blah. But then I
Speaker 3: went back and rewatched it when I got home to
Speaker 3: be like, okay, why do we leave everyone? And Erica
Speaker 3: isn't in it again. I think this is another issue
Speaker 3: about brown people in this show. And they're like, no,
Speaker 3: she was at the how they no, she's at the graduation,
Speaker 3: but she doesn't get like, what's happening next prologue And
Speaker 3: she also isn't in the next generation of kids playing
Speaker 3: D and D as their leader, so she basically just
Speaker 3: gets left out of what happens next. That's a big oversight.
Speaker 3: And then Duffer brothers were like, she's an independent woman.
Speaker 3: We can't tell her what to do. It's like, she's
Speaker 3: your character, what do you mean?
Speaker 2: Her and Murray disappearing essentially from the extended nothing on
Speaker 2: them is weird even keep in like I mean.
Speaker 3: Murray had no no.
Speaker 2: I agree Murray was weird to keep in, but if
Speaker 2: you keep him in. He threw the fucking touchdown pass
Speaker 2: with the grenade, like there's someone else did They could
Speaker 2: have done that, and they should have maybe done that,
Speaker 2: but like to have Murray involved to that level and
Speaker 2: then he's gone is weird. And I will say, Okay, generally,
Speaker 2: I think that I boil down to a lot of
Speaker 2: the ambiguousness, the unanswered questions, the unclosed loops down to
Speaker 2: a kind of core philosophy of Netflix, you know, with
Speaker 2: with other streamers, other studios, HBO for instance, there's a
Speaker 2: kind of ruthless ethos of you know, we're storytellers and
Speaker 2: that means stakes, and that means your loved ones. Your
Speaker 2: beloved ones will die occasionally, and maybe often Netflix is like,
Speaker 2: we're here, We're up the panacea, We're here to make
Speaker 2: you feel good. Like as a core philosophy, we're looking
Speaker 2: at numbers to see what the fans love, and if
Speaker 2: they love that, we want to give them more of it.
Speaker 1: And so I feel like.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of my enjoyment of the finale
Speaker 2: is that I knew going in maybe ain't nobody to die.
Speaker 2: It was weird, and they're gonna do some bullshit where
Speaker 2: it's like they bring back the sister you never knew
Speaker 2: about the sister of color that we have no like
Speaker 2: character building on, and she's gonna die and you're not
Speaker 2: gonna care about that because that's what we do here,
Speaker 2: That's what the numbers told us is gonna work. And
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it is lower is to
Speaker 2: an extent, lowered expects.
Speaker 3: Well, I y, I kind of like what you're saying
Speaker 3: that too, because I do think that one of the
Speaker 3: most interesting things coming out of strange of things is
Speaker 3: gonna be like I mean, and there's gonna be books
Speaker 3: written on this. But the notion of like TV made
Speaker 3: via algorithm, and I think you touch on that because
Speaker 3: we don't know how Netflix gets their data, and the
Speaker 3: things that worked and that they see as working do
Speaker 3: come from like my taste space. So for example, a
Speaker 3: character I never usually like, right is Nancy. Don't have
Speaker 3: any interest in her. I think the love interest the
Speaker 3: love triangle is try like, never interested. I like that
Speaker 3: she was a journalist, but it was derivative Lois Lane,
Speaker 3: who cares no. In the finale on the big screen
Speaker 3: in the upside down dimet well not upside down in
Speaker 3: the dimension X planet, which many people have been rinsing
Speaker 3: them for looking like Lincoln Park. When you watch it
Speaker 3: on the Netflix, it looks like but not on the TV,
Speaker 3: it actually didn't look like that. And you know what
Speaker 3: worked really well for me is like Nancy in Eddie
Speaker 3: Munson's old Wig, basically confirmed it's the same wig from
Speaker 3: multiple shots at this point, her in that wig walking
Speaker 3: through this dusty dystopian kind of landscape with her big
Speaker 3: fucking gun just shooting people. That shit worked on the
Speaker 3: big screen. I was watching her thinking you could be
Speaker 3: in a Terminator movie. This is the nostalgia they learned
Speaker 3: from and worked within that worked for me. I think
Speaker 3: the problem is, as this is something we talked about
Speaker 3: the original too It movies, I think often nostalgia is
Speaker 3: a chore. Is also a chance for them to go, well,
Speaker 3: you know what didn't work back then inclusion, or you
Speaker 3: know what did work back then? Bringing back because look,
Speaker 3: the other thing about the Carly situation, which for me
Speaker 3: is a big issue because as we know, I'm one
Speaker 3: of it, it was the fact was it sucks. It sucks,
Speaker 3: and also not just that. I do not believe for
Speaker 3: a second that that was ever the plan. I think
Speaker 3: that they brought her back because everyone says, hey, why
Speaker 3: didn't you bring her back? Who is she? She's useless,
Speaker 3: and because people didn't like her, they killed her. I think,
Speaker 3: in its own way, this is another fan service, and
Speaker 3: I fucking hate that because actually, anything I think that's
Speaker 3: really good about Lost Sister originally is we do get
Speaker 3: the interior lives of all these different kids, and it's
Speaker 3: not just about them fighting the minds flair. You actually
Speaker 3: got to know who they were here. We know nothing
Speaker 3: about Carli. She's just a sage brown woman who's gonna
Speaker 3: kill herself for a white lady. And I think that
Speaker 3: filmmaking by algorithm and the idea of nostalgia can both
Speaker 3: push us forward into new cool versions of stuff, not
Speaker 3: saying Stranger Things did that, honestly, but it can also
Speaker 3: stick us in the old tropes. And I think the
Speaker 3: Karli Erica stuff for me felt like that. But Joelle,
Speaker 3: it was one thing that worked for you, and I
Speaker 3: do want to hear about it because I think you
Speaker 3: did a great job of laying out kind of how
Speaker 3: well they built in the easter eggs that did work
Speaker 3: and the long term stuff that came in from season
Speaker 3: one onwards.
Speaker 6: Yeah, So my holiday was spent mostly watching like Heated
Speaker 6: Rivalry and The Stranger Things finale and going on the internet.
Speaker 1: You want to talk nostalgia.
Speaker 6: I was like, we're back, baby, We're talking TV twenty
Speaker 6: four to seven, three sixty. I got new memes, I've
Speaker 6: got hidden Easter eggs, I've got three good jillion interviews
Speaker 6: to watch. It was an amazing time just to be
Speaker 6: online and loving TV. And while I didn't have a
Speaker 6: good time watching the andalely, rewatching it through the internet's
Speaker 6: eyes was more rewarding.
Speaker 1: Watching folks get excited. You know.
Speaker 6: The thing I think I picked up most was dustin
Speaker 6: graduation speech, which was kind of weird when you don't
Speaker 6: know how they ended high school. Really there's like a.
Speaker 5: Year and still graduated.
Speaker 6: She studied so hard in Okay, she was still conscious.
Speaker 1: She had all the time in the cave.
Speaker 2: Hard knocks.
Speaker 6: If she sat in classes when she was hanging out
Speaker 6: with the parents back in their high school days, she
Speaker 6: could easily graduate.
Speaker 1: I digress. His speech is pretty.
Speaker 6: Much forbade him what Eddie says he wished he would
Speaker 6: be able to do when he would graduate a couple
Speaker 6: of seasons ago. Uh, there were things like the clothing
Speaker 6: that they imagine. L we're talking about clothing, but the
Speaker 6: clothing elawares in that final scene, it's her same color
Speaker 6: theory as when she first appears in their light. So
Speaker 6: this idea of her innocence. And there's like a bunch
Speaker 6: of like little moments like that where if you're a
Speaker 6: deep fan and you've been watching regularly, like you, I
Speaker 6: think hearing from the fans and how rewarded they felt.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, it worked for the people it
Speaker 1: needed to work for.
Speaker 3: And that's how I felt about Five Nights of Freddy's too,
Speaker 3: Like my literal review for Five Nights of Freddy's two
Speaker 3: is like huge win for kids who watch YouTube blow videos,
Speaker 3: and that is the demographic. So it's like, this is
Speaker 3: why people love that movie. This is why people love
Speaker 3: the show. I love that the one that I thought
Speaker 3: was really funny that I'm not gonna lie my old head, Like,
Speaker 3: if I was gonna have an Adjason aka Stephen A
Speaker 3: Smith of X ray Vision Style BRANDT, mine would be
Speaker 3: about the Beckner's like Castle Slash, kind of like Giant
Speaker 3: Spider on the Dark Crystal POSTA bitch that one it is.
Speaker 3: But also if you actually look in season one, it's
Speaker 3: just the fucking dark Crystal poster.
Speaker 1: Guys.
Speaker 3: The Dark Crystal posters already always looked like that, and
Speaker 3: they just made something that looked like that.
Speaker 5: For anyone who doesn't know what Rosie's referring to.
Speaker 4: In season one, they have the Dark Crystal poster and
Speaker 4: people were showing screenshots of that saying, look, they planned
Speaker 4: it all along. They knew this was going to be
Speaker 4: in the final season and obviously not the case. It
Speaker 4: just they designed it to look like I.
Speaker 3: Love and I will say this is my defense of
Speaker 3: the ambiguous ending too. I do think something they understand
Speaker 3: about the show and why they can do stuff like
Speaker 3: that and utilize stuff that they've put in before and
Speaker 3: try and tie it together in a way that makes sense,
Speaker 3: which is kind of what you should be doing with
Speaker 3: the TV show. But you know, is just also because
Speaker 3: like the love and the fandom of the show will
Speaker 3: put those clues together, and I have to say that
Speaker 3: ambiguous ending for me, I did think and look, maybe
Speaker 3: this is because I'm someone who had to cover this
Speaker 3: show extensively in its first few seasons and we were
Speaker 3: up in the middle of the night our friend BJ.
Speaker 3: We love her.
Speaker 2: I love how you're discussing this like you were on
Speaker 2: like an Alaskan.
Speaker 3: It was like it was.
Speaker 4: Like three weeks time you were in the Russian covering
Speaker 4: with him the Stranger.
Speaker 3: Things, covering Stranger Things first three seasons. Bro, they will
Speaker 3: not send you a screen now, and I'm saying, we
Speaker 3: didn't get screeners for the see the guys, this is
Speaker 3: why we're doing it on New Year's Eve, some of
Speaker 3: our other incredible podcast colleagues got up on Christmas Day
Speaker 3: and podcasted in their pajamas. Stranger Things have been making
Speaker 3: it hard for journalists to do their job for a
Speaker 3: long fucking time. And back in the day, it was
Speaker 3: like we would have a team of twenty people and
Speaker 3: we would be there and each of us would be like, Okay,
Speaker 3: you watched this episode one in the morning, and you
Speaker 3: do this take, and da da da da. It was crazy,
Speaker 3: And I think that did help, and also all the
Speaker 3: fandom and everything that helped keep the show alive, and
Speaker 3: in a way, I did think it was nice to
Speaker 3: have Micis essentially and the show with a theory, like
Speaker 3: a theory like everyone else has done.
Speaker 2: When we come back, we're going to talk the open
Speaker 2: ended ending of Stranger Things, the finality, Okay, we're back here.
Speaker 2: In my mind are the biggest like kind of open
Speaker 2: questions of the season. One is Vecna's main plan. It's
Speaker 2: still kind of open ended to me, and in particular
Speaker 2: whether it's Vecna or the Mind Flayer who's actually the boss,
Speaker 2: because I think what we've I know and I think
Speaker 2: what we learned in the final kind of reveals of Arthur.
Speaker 2: Of mister Kreole's kind of biography is that it appears
Speaker 2: that it was the mind Flare all along and two
Speaker 2: and this is the big one. Eleven is she did,
Speaker 2: I think because it's Netflix, No no, and.
Speaker 3: She just signed six feel contract with them.
Speaker 2: She's she's not dead until she turns down the contract
Speaker 2: and then she and I'll be proud of her, and
Speaker 2: she does. But in your minds, in everybody's minds, where
Speaker 2: are we with that? And do you have any open
Speaker 2: ended questions that you would love answer?
Speaker 3: Rosie, I do want to start just with the notion
Speaker 3: of who was behind it all, because again at home
Speaker 3: absolutely did not understand and watched it twice at the
Speaker 3: Egyptian cinema on the big screen. There is a big
Speaker 3: focus on the moment when Will is connecting psychically with
Speaker 3: Henry and saying, hey, we are you going to help us?
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah, and he's like, you don't understand. It
Speaker 3: was the mind Flayer and I was just a young kid,
Speaker 3: but now we are one, and I think, like, because
Speaker 3: his name is one. But I also think the implication
Speaker 3: is at some point he chose to be part of
Speaker 3: the mind flayer and so but it's it's like, but
Speaker 3: also the thing to me is like that I really
Speaker 3: want to know about And I understand that this is,
Speaker 3: you know, explained in the play, and there are many
Speaker 3: articles where you can write it, and a lot of
Speaker 3: people had seen the play or read about the plane
Speaker 3: knew that the particles in the suitcase were part of
Speaker 3: the play. But I'm sorry, guys, there's only so much
Speaker 3: mcguffining that you can do. And in my opinion, the
Speaker 3: idea that all of this happened because a kid found
Speaker 3: a suitcase in a cave. You didn't think that was
Speaker 3: a supercase of mind that had just come from alien Like, No,
Speaker 3: that's silly. I'm sorry. You would have been better off.
Speaker 3: There was so much interesting stuff that could have been
Speaker 3: done with the notion of like the kids and the
Speaker 3: pied piper of it all and why he was you know,
Speaker 3: but this notion of like kids' brains all week. But
Speaker 3: it's like, but your brain wasn't weak when you were
Speaker 3: a kid, because you were able to control the mind players,
Speaker 3: So like, why did you get that? I did? Like,
Speaker 3: that's the mind players mentality, Like it doesn't really make sense.
Speaker 3: I so I but I do think, I do think
Speaker 3: it's meant to be that the at one point he
Speaker 3: chose to be part of it and so he could
Speaker 3: never get out.
Speaker 6: This is my main sticking point with this. The entire
Speaker 6: finale really.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 6: If they had to boil it down to, like what
Speaker 6: is the issue, Like, what's the problem with how this ends?
Speaker 1: Why don't you enjoy it? It's this. I'm a person
Speaker 1: who I love an open ended stories.
Speaker 6: I was thinking about, Uh, what's that? Amy Adams HBO
Speaker 6: show is based off a novel. She thinks her mom's
Speaker 6: like an awful person, but it's her sister.
Speaker 1: Sharp Objects, Thank you, Carmen. So Sharp Objects gives you both.
Speaker 6: A definitive answer and a good jillion question, And it's
Speaker 6: satisfactory because the main question has been answered and it
Speaker 6: opens up a lot more questions. That's what an ambiguous
Speaker 6: open ending does. And you're like, oh, I never thought
Speaker 6: it could end that way?
Speaker 1: What does that mean? For everything I've seen? Let me
Speaker 1: go back and rewatch.
Speaker 6: It is compelling and very interesting. I don't still know
Speaker 6: next to nothing about Vecna. We saw his high school
Speaker 6: classmate chop his head off, and there's no recognition between
Speaker 6: him being like, wait, it's me or her being like.
Speaker 1: Holy shit, it's you.
Speaker 6: Like there's just there's so much threads they've built up
Speaker 6: into a story that gives you no kind of catharsis
Speaker 6: or conclusion or even a revelation about the person. And
Speaker 6: because there's none of these like growth spaces for you
Speaker 6: the viewer.
Speaker 1: It lands like a thud. You're like, what are we?
Speaker 1: Why did any of this just happen? Why does he
Speaker 1: eat all?
Speaker 6: That's a lot of kids t wrangle. What was the
Speaker 6: point of all of them? And I just if the
Speaker 6: whole thing is about, like it's confronting their trauma and
Speaker 6: trying to figure out like who you are through your trauma,
Speaker 6: I think retraumatizing the kids right exactly by losing their friend,
Speaker 6: does it give us any kind and then not giving
Speaker 6: us any kind of actual growth or confrontation of that.
Speaker 6: But maybe it was this just I just felt so
Speaker 6: like Bereft, I was like, I don't think these kids
Speaker 6: are gonna be okay. I think we're just throwing them
Speaker 6: back into the world with more trauma.
Speaker 1: I would say.
Speaker 3: I also, I also do think as much as I
Speaker 3: love the epilogue and I'm a lord of the Rings
Speaker 3: epilogue defender. I would also say, like, have a bit
Speaker 3: of imagination, guys like your ending is that they get married,
Speaker 3: and then the ending for another one is like he
Speaker 3: writes a book based on this, Like, come on, we
Speaker 3: knew that.
Speaker 1: Guys like stand by me. Okay, see they don't have
Speaker 1: to be nostalgia.
Speaker 2: I have a lot more to say about that particular piece,
Speaker 2: but Aaron, in terms of the open end and ending,
Speaker 2: the unanswered questions, anything in particular sticking your craw on
Speaker 2: how did it hit you?
Speaker 4: I liked it a lot. I particularly love the way
Speaker 4: that they tied again. I am someone who loves D
Speaker 4: and D. I love that they sort of ham fisted
Speaker 4: their way back into D and D at the end.
Speaker 4: They really I have so many complaints, whether it be
Speaker 4: he's not a sorcerer, because the sorcerer was not a
Speaker 4: true class in D and D at this time in
Speaker 4: the eighties, unless one of them is a time traveler.
Speaker 5: So also he's probably more like a warlock if anything.
Speaker 4: But all of that aside, I like this idea that yeah,
Speaker 4: we're telling stories this whole time, and for the ending,
Speaker 4: I'm going to come up with something. This is as
Speaker 4: a DM that I think may have happened here, and
Speaker 4: I'm going to use it in the D and D game.
Speaker 4: I thought that worked so well. Now do I care
Speaker 4: if Eleven's alive or not?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: Actually, like the story's over, I'm fine there not knowing
Speaker 4: which side.
Speaker 2: Is your heart can stop your heart to say.
Speaker 4: My heart says that she is alive and that she's
Speaker 4: walking by those two waterfalls, But I don't really that's
Speaker 4: for me. What was there a third Okay, okay, so yeah,
Speaker 4: the third waterfa but I don't really that's not changing
Speaker 4: how I was impacted by the rest of the epilogue
Speaker 4: by that end, because regardless she's making a sacrifice. It
Speaker 4: doesn't matter if her sacrifice is she's actually dying or
Speaker 4: she's choosing to just never be able to see her
Speaker 4: friends and family again.
Speaker 5: It's a sacrifice way.
Speaker 2: Which is why like that? Why do that?
Speaker 3: Can I just does she need to do that?
Speaker 4: Because because she needs to avoid the military? Who I mean,
Speaker 4: sure they couldn't find her the previous year when she
Speaker 4: was hiding in the military zone, and they did so
Speaker 4: well getting in and out of doors all season. They
Speaker 4: were really the best at that. Let me tell you that, No,
Speaker 4: I mean they just needed something. I don't know, I'm
Speaker 4: not that concerned.
Speaker 2: I am kind of with you in that I didn't
Speaker 2: just kind of reiterate I didn't have these like high
Speaker 2: expectations of the story telling, execution. I'm sure your things
Speaker 2: before this. So I was not like feeling as if
Speaker 2: the stakes were ever gonna be there fully, that they
Speaker 2: were ever going to have the guts to kill somebody
Speaker 2: that we had spent multiple seasons with, you know, like
Speaker 2: and Eddie Munson is as far as they'd ever go. Yes,
Speaker 2: you get to know him over a season, then we
Speaker 2: off the guy and you love it too, But we're
Speaker 2: never gonna give you a multi season core character death.
Speaker 2: It's never not for real, like not in a way
Speaker 2: that's explicit. And so I am kind of with you,
Speaker 2: although rationally I agree with everything. Joelle is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think go ahead.
Speaker 3: Objectively, you're right, Joelle, I was gonna say, interestingly, the finale,
Speaker 3: specifically the reveal that Owl was alive, people were like, ah, like,
Speaker 3: but the one that people went crazy for, like the
Speaker 3: moments that actually I feel like paid off in the
Speaker 3: cinema Lest the Future, Steve is a sex teacher, people
Speaker 3: love that and obviously they love that he's his coach
Speaker 3: and everything, but also it was really ironically it was
Speaker 3: a Steve moment. And I think again, this shows they
Speaker 3: knew some of what fans want, but they didn't lean
Speaker 3: into the biggest things they want, which is, you know,
Speaker 3: family and friendship and community. There wasn't a lot of that.
Speaker 3: But like, dude, when Steve fell off the big tower, yeah,
Speaker 3: and then Jonathan saved him and it went black on
Speaker 3: the screen. When it came back and he was alive
Speaker 3: and it was Jonathan, people stood up and cheered like
Speaker 3: they cared. That's the thing that's funny is like the
Speaker 3: moments that were the huge moments, I don't even think
Speaker 3: the Duffer brothers fully realized them because that was people
Speaker 3: were more excited than that about Eleven. You know, the
Speaker 3: people did like it when Eleven said I'm not Sarah
Speaker 3: and gave back the bracelet, people were like, oh.
Speaker 2: That was another thing that kind of pissed me off,
Speaker 2: was like, why is this Why is this guy's entire motivation,
Speaker 2: this character that we've never met, Like can you can
Speaker 2: we can we build in something with people that existed
Speaker 2: the fucking story I'm.
Speaker 3: A hopper hater. I think it's a terrible character. I
Speaker 3: wish he died. I think he should have died. I
Speaker 3: don't know. I only the only reason that he should
Speaker 3: have died he should have died.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, his big his big epilogue thing
Speaker 2: is like, I can't wait to be a cop, maybe
Speaker 2: in a new city where they save me more.
Speaker 3: Also, can I just say we got to talk. I
Speaker 3: want to talk more about that moment too, but I
Speaker 3: think we'll talk about it during our theory consideration. But
Speaker 3: but yeah, I mean, I just thought that was incredibly disappointing.
Speaker 3: I also think again the show not understanding think about
Speaker 3: this right back in the first two seasons, the biggest
Speaker 3: straw to that show were win On a writer obviously,
Speaker 3: and David Harbor. He kind of became the breakout star.
Speaker 3: Now people just about the kids. We don't care about them.
Speaker 3: Her chopping off the head and saying, don't fuck with you,
Speaker 3: fucked with the wrong family. It was so like Harry Potter,
Speaker 3: like not my daughter, bitch coded, like it wasn't even
Speaker 3: didn't have a power of its own moment. I think
Speaker 3: that I could have done without the adults at all.
Speaker 3: And I actually ironically think that the l stuff would
Speaker 3: have been so much better if it was just her
Speaker 3: and Carly. Hopper is the reason Carli is dead. Hopper
Speaker 3: could have picked Cary up and put her on his
Speaker 3: other shoulder, and he didn't. He just left her behind.
Speaker 2: No, he went running to find bandages or whatever.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go look for else back. Yeah, right, bro.
Speaker 4: I did think emotional scene wise, I really liked Dustin
Speaker 4: and Steve on the stairwell when Dustin is like I
Speaker 4: can't afford to lose someone else. That really hit for
Speaker 4: me in a way that I had been kind of
Speaker 4: annoyed with Dustin early in the season, like going off
Speaker 4: on his own and going to the graveyard, so that
Speaker 4: I thought worked really really well, and especially because it
Speaker 4: was in opposition to Nancy and Jonathan's proposal in the
Speaker 4: melting Room that I just kind of thought didn't work
Speaker 4: for me.
Speaker 5: But I thought Dustin was crazy.
Speaker 3: Okay, I did any emotional moment hit for you? Was
Speaker 3: there one that worked?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 5: The credit and I got to change.
Speaker 1: Okay, here's the thing. Their last game of D and D.
Speaker 6: As somebody who regularly plays D and D hit stupid hard.
Speaker 1: And they were like, oh, so we're just done.
Speaker 6: I was like, there's always another way, boys, I know
Speaker 6: you got like dig deep. I loved how excited Max
Speaker 6: was and it feels like her first time playing and
Speaker 6: it was really sweet. And I just thought they got
Speaker 6: the chemistry. But it's when they put those books on
Speaker 6: the shelves. We keep all of our books at my
Speaker 6: friend's house, so all of our notes are together, all
Speaker 6: of our figurines are together, they're on display. I was like,
Speaker 6: this is accurate, this is right, this is real friendship,
Speaker 6: and it's what it about.
Speaker 1: It got to me.
Speaker 6: I like the Dustin h moment on the stairs I
Speaker 6: thought was good. I even thought, even though I found
Speaker 6: it a little confusing, the unproposal worked pretty well. I
Speaker 6: thought it was like some of the best writing in
Speaker 6: these last couple of episodes.
Speaker 3: I think it did set up one of the only
Speaker 3: good choices, like one of the only I think, like
Speaker 3: actually progressive choices that people can look back at this
Speaker 3: show and say, hey, they did that, which sounds crazy
Speaker 3: because it's not that crazy, but it's very fucking rare
Speaker 3: in a YA show to have a love triangle and
Speaker 3: end it with the women being able to just have
Speaker 3: a life and not choose one of them that never happens.
Speaker 3: That is actually pretty vanical. And I think that the
Speaker 3: unproposal and the realization, and I really like the conversation
Speaker 3: of Stephen Jonathan in the car where they were both like,
Speaker 3: this isn't gonna work, Like, this is not gonna work
Speaker 3: for us, this is not so like we just Nancy
Speaker 3: just gets to go and live her own life. You know,
Speaker 3: she's not our win, our prize.
Speaker 2: That conversation was the one I listened a lot of
Speaker 2: these let's have our final character resolution conversation moments felt
Speaker 2: like a checklist, but most of them felt good for me.
Speaker 2: The Jonathan that one Jonathan Steve, it felt a little
Speaker 2: bit like guilding the lily.
Speaker 5: To me, like a little bit too fast.
Speaker 2: Fat guys, Yes, guys that have been rivals that long.
Speaker 2: Like I loved their rivalry. It was very fun. I
Speaker 2: think you could have it was a little bit too
Speaker 2: like therapy speak, like let's put our cards on the
Speaker 2: table for what felt like the previous kind of established
Speaker 2: characters that those guys were. I like going to talk
Speaker 2: about it that much.
Speaker 3: But I also think this part of another problem that
Speaker 3: we've talked about with Stranger Things, because the characters look
Speaker 3: so old and are so old you kind of have
Speaker 3: Jonathan and Steve. Those actors are like they're in their thirties,
Speaker 3: you know they and they want to they.
Speaker 2: Want to they're brushing that hair forward or brushing do
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, they've been doing that. It's that.
Speaker 3: It's that one really incredible tweet that somebody did and
Speaker 3: it was like, I love Stranger Things, that young cast
Speaker 3: and the retired Japanese detective who hangs around with them,
Speaker 3: and it's just Jonathan.
Speaker 1: It's like, yes, But.
Speaker 3: Like I think that when the characters are older than
Speaker 3: like that and they've actually aged up throughout, I bet
Speaker 3: both of those guys were like, we're having this fucking conversation, Duffers,
Speaker 3: like you're not having us out here as thirty year olds,
Speaker 3: like oh, fight you for her? Like I think that
Speaker 3: the whole aging out changes how the conversations have to
Speaker 3: do as well. But yeah, okay, so I will say
Speaker 3: and obviously you know I was. I was at this
Speaker 3: with one of my nephews and one of my best
Speaker 3: friends and we were we were there and having great time.
Speaker 3: Nick was also there because he you know, and he
Speaker 3: does not get stranger things. And we were talking about
Speaker 3: the jis room and I just want to say I
Speaker 3: have to say, and this is funny because Nick is
Speaker 3: not like a he's not like a conspiracy theory person.
Speaker 3: He's not like an online person particularly. But it was
Speaker 3: so funny because watching the show with him anyway is hilarious.
Speaker 3: Watching that finale, he had not seen the middle two episodes,
Speaker 3: so he did not know about them, right, So he's
Speaker 3: literally sitting next to he was two seats away from me,
Speaker 3: and then he was looking at me and at the
Speaker 3: end he was like, Okay, so now you're telling me
Speaker 3: there's a room made of jizz and the kids are
Speaker 3: having these phallic things pulled out of their mouths. He's like,
Speaker 3: what are they doing to these kids? Why is it?
Speaker 3: Why are they sexualizing the kids? Why does the thing
Speaker 3: have to go in the mouth, Why can't they go
Speaker 3: in the belly butt? And why is there a jiz room?
Speaker 3: And I was like, you know what, You're not wrong.
Speaker 3: I was like, actually, these are all weird questions. The
Speaker 3: weird choice too.
Speaker 6: Hide on the side sounds that were coming with the
Speaker 6: little two things. I just think we could have gone
Speaker 6: belly button, forehead, back.
Speaker 1: Of the head. We have a lot of, like a
Speaker 1: lot of options. I thought mouth was a weird choice.
Speaker 3: There, especially with the kids staying it's always the like
Speaker 3: eleven twelve year old babies.
Speaker 4: It's And then on top of that, I think the
Speaker 4: just with his hand as he does to eleven, as
Speaker 4: he does to Will, he doesn't need to be attached
Speaker 4: to them.
Speaker 1: It's weird.
Speaker 6: And then too, I think, you know, contextually within this show,
Speaker 6: like Murray being there was strange. It's even weirder when
Speaker 6: he starts making like so many sex jokes around literally children.
Speaker 1: I'm like, wariy, this girl supposed to be twelve years old.
Speaker 1: Why are we making dick jokes. It's weird.
Speaker 3: Long here again, I didn't.
Speaker 1: Age and totally what we were going for.
Speaker 6: And maybe, you know, Jason, you mentioned in the group
Speaker 6: chat that like, perhaps the audience has outgrown the show,
Speaker 6: and the show made a very strong choice to say
Speaker 6: we're not going to do a time jump. They wanted
Speaker 6: to end like at the end of the eighties, so
Speaker 6: they literally couldn't do a time jump and keep their
Speaker 6: time frame.
Speaker 1: And I think it messed with a lot of like
Speaker 1: contextually and thematically with the show overall, I don't feel
Speaker 1: quite right at the end.
Speaker 2: Here, let's talk about the part of the epilogue. I
Speaker 2: think that kind of hit the hardest and really is
Speaker 2: like the meat of the thing, which is Mike's last
Speaker 2: Dungeon Master campaign with the core group everybody in tears,
Speaker 2: says he's revealing what happened, and then you discover he's
Speaker 2: going to be a writer, and then we bring in
Speaker 2: the spinoff kids for you know, for a story to
Speaker 2: be told later. I found this to be a really
Speaker 2: interesting framing and one that listen, I'm going to ignore
Speaker 2: the fact that with so many open ended kind of
Speaker 2: untied not like and strings that are just like left dangling,
Speaker 2: I think including this Mike the writer piece opens the doorway,
Speaker 2: I think to an interesting, slash confusing, slash, muddy and
Speaker 2: potentially like unsatisfying perspective, which is, what if it was
Speaker 2: in the mind Flare all along. What if it's Mike
Speaker 2: all along and we are actually understanding this story through
Speaker 2: Mike's gains, at which I think is clear they're kind
Speaker 2: of going through.
Speaker 3: I think that's the implication. But the important thing, the
Speaker 3: important thing is to recognize the difference between us watching
Speaker 3: what Mike's version was and then the argument that people
Speaker 3: have been making online that because of the lighting you
Speaker 3: couldn't see Nancy Wheeler's next cause the whole thing was
Speaker 3: just an imaginary game and they were at the end
Speaker 3: of it, and I was like, no.
Speaker 1: It's not that. It's not that.
Speaker 3: But my I think seeing Mike's version, yes.
Speaker 1: And that's exactly right.
Speaker 2: I think what we're seeing is Mike recounting this crazy
Speaker 2: thing that happened when he was a kid to his
Speaker 2: friends as part of a story that he's telling, whether
Speaker 2: in the context of the D and D campaign or
Speaker 2: he's written a book.
Speaker 3: I can confirm yes, okay, because at the end of
Speaker 3: the movie released version, you had to wait till all
Speaker 3: the This may be the same in Netflix you make
Speaker 3: you had to wait till all the credits were over.
Speaker 3: There is a Stranger Things D and D handbook that
Speaker 3: just says Stranger Things, and it says by Mike Wheeler.
Speaker 3: So the implication is he wrote some kind of D
Speaker 3: and D handbook, And I think, also, my guess I so, so,
Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought up.
Speaker 2: There's licensing issues.
Speaker 1: There.
Speaker 3: Licensing issues works, but you know what it is. It
Speaker 3: just says Stranger Things. It doesn't say D and D.
Speaker 3: It's like a role playing game, you know. But but
Speaker 3: I would also say, like, I think this brings up
Speaker 3: a good conversation point, which is what is the spinoff?
Speaker 3: Because obviously the kids feel like the spin off, but
Speaker 3: the Guffer Brothers have said the spin off is gonna
Speaker 3: deal deal with the particles in the suitcase and also
Speaker 3: but also it's also going to be new characters that
Speaker 3: we haven't met. So I love the idea. This is
Speaker 3: my my high concept theory. I don't think this is
Speaker 3: what it is. I would love the idea that we
Speaker 3: get kids in like the zeros playing the Stranger Things
Speaker 3: game who live in Hawkins and start to put together
Speaker 3: that this is actually based on real stuff that happened
Speaker 3: in Hawkins. I think that's a cool I think that's
Speaker 3: going to be the idea. But this is my current
Speaker 3: even though the stuff of others have said it's about
Speaker 3: the suitcase. My current theory is I don't think, unfortunately
Speaker 3: that they set up the town of mon Talk and
Speaker 3: win Owner and David Harbor going there for no reason.
Speaker 3: The show was originally called The mon Talk Projects it's
Speaker 3: in mont Talk. There is all this rumors about because
Speaker 3: there's an old government space out there. It's very mk
Speaker 3: ultra coded.
Speaker 2: Also, let me there's Farm Island Disease Research Center that
Speaker 2: is off the coast of Long Island and Montalk, and
Speaker 2: many believe well Sumble there is an active conspiracy theory
Speaker 2: that that's where lined.
Speaker 3: Is eased in front and many other kind of things.
Speaker 3: And also interestingly, the reason I felt like this was
Speaker 3: very brazen is because if you have kept up with
Speaker 3: the Stranger Things, and this is not me mid taking
Speaker 3: either side, because me and Jason have talked about this extensively.
Speaker 3: Many people have many different ideas. But there is a
Speaker 3: guy who sued the Duffer brothers who said he presented
Speaker 3: them a deck called Montalk that was essentially Stranger Things,
Speaker 3: and then they basically later pitched it to Netflix. Right
Speaker 3: the original pitch deck says Montalk. I think that this
Speaker 3: is them saying, hey, what if we went to the
Speaker 3: Sauce instead of Hawkins, instead of this pretend version. This
Speaker 3: was so popular, we could do a version in Montalk.
Speaker 3: Mont looks beautiful. There's lots of interesting class issues there
Speaker 3: because it's like this part of Long island that super
Speaker 3: boujiem loads of people who have rich lived there and
Speaker 3: holiday there, but also these people who still live there
Speaker 3: and work in the places. It could be really interesting.
Speaker 3: I just don't want to see David Harbot. I don't
Speaker 3: want to see I love Way out of Ryda. You
Speaker 3: can be in it, but like, I don't need to
Speaker 3: see the adult story. But I do think the mon
Speaker 3: Talk thing is my most realistic version. And then they'll
Speaker 3: find out, oh, the particles came from the Montalk lab,
Speaker 3: like lime disease or whatever. That's my boring. I think
Speaker 3: it's gonna happen. Theory, Aaron, you have one of my
Speaker 3: favorite theories, so please just yeah.
Speaker 4: So originally they were saying, you know, we will have
Speaker 4: a scene that hints at what the spinoff is going
Speaker 4: to be. And when they sat down to play that
Speaker 4: final game of D and D and they're playing what
Speaker 4: I assume is Curse of Strade, which is a campaign
Speaker 4: where you're fighting about this legendary vampire, I was like,
Speaker 4: oh my god, they're going to do a spinoff where
Speaker 4: it's like vampiric creatures from the upside down, And I
Speaker 4: think I love love that, And then you know, like.
Speaker 6: On the planet, we didn't see any of the Okay.
Speaker 3: Well, Joe, we're going to talk about that.
Speaker 1: Aaron.
Speaker 3: Let me quickly ask you then, I love this. I've
Speaker 3: played a little bit of supernatural kind of coded D U,
Speaker 3: D and D. Why you are more in that vampireic
Speaker 3: space and there's like blood oaths and stuff. As somebody
Speaker 3: who's actually played a lot of D and D and
Speaker 3: that got you excited. What could we expect law wise
Speaker 3: and world wise if they were going to pursue that
Speaker 3: in a D and D space.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't even want to go into it because
Speaker 4: I think I just know I'm wrong because.
Speaker 5: Of them talking so much about the briefcase.
Speaker 4: I know, I know it would be amazing, and I think, hey,
Speaker 4: it would explore a lot of really interesting things like
Speaker 4: also they had you know, one of the biggest things
Speaker 4: I think with any kind of like video game or
Speaker 4: role playing game whatever with vampires is when a character
Speaker 4: that is in your party is turned and you lose,
Speaker 4: you lose someone to the enemy, And I think that
Speaker 4: would be a really interesting thing for them to have
Speaker 4: been able to sort of explore again, because they do
Speaker 4: that a little with Will, but not quite Vampire would.
Speaker 2: I really like Rosie's theory that it's going to be
Speaker 2: about a new cast of kids who follow the breadcrumbs
Speaker 2: in Mike's book or Mike's D and D campaign, licensing
Speaker 2: issues aside, and uncover this mystery of this crazy thing
Speaker 2: that happened that probably mirrors their own experiences. They contact
Speaker 2: Mike or you know, adult and adult characters, and they
Speaker 2: start unraveling the mystery. I like that idea. I will
Speaker 2: say that one thing that I loved when the new
Speaker 2: kids came in. I'm corny like that. Okay, he too works? Wow, perfect, perfect,
Speaker 2: you know, spin off, jumping off point. If they decide
Speaker 2: to use one of these kids and I don't believe
Speaker 2: anything the Duffer brothers say, no, me not going to
Speaker 2: be this or it's going to be that, I will say,
Speaker 2: here's an issue I have though when they brought the
Speaker 2: kids in. This show is so much about trauma and
Speaker 2: how people grapple with it, how it can empower you,
Speaker 2: but also how it's baggage if you don't figure out
Speaker 2: how to put it down at some point, and I
Speaker 2: think it's a little thematically now I'm gonna get like
Speaker 2: to very licred and nerdy. I think it's weird thematically
Speaker 2: this that as I'm watching these kids come in for
Speaker 2: this new campaign, I'm not I felt no dread. Story Wise,
Speaker 2: this should be like, oh no, see what happened.
Speaker 3: I don't want these kids.
Speaker 2: I don't want these kids to go through this again.
Speaker 1: It should be that like the.
Speaker 3: No no, no, no, yes.
Speaker 2: But instead I'm like, and I was questioning it, I
Speaker 2: was like, but instead I'm like, oh, a new adventure.
Speaker 2: I shouldn't feel.
Speaker 4: That like picking up some random piece. They should have
Speaker 4: picked up the demo Gorgon and like, yeah, the mind
Speaker 4: and he looks back and is like, oh, you know what,
Speaker 4: We're not going to let you play with that one
Speaker 4: that don't use that.
Speaker 3: I think it.
Speaker 2: I think it goes back to the fact that like
Speaker 2: everybody lived sadly. Yes, what should have happened is like,
Speaker 2: tell me how any character significantly changed meaningfully from it's
Speaker 2: the time that it's only it really is only Steve.
Speaker 5: Nobody Will.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean Will came to terms with something. Yes,
Speaker 2: I think Will sure Well, he was still gay.
Speaker 6: He was as a cry baby, like Will evolved as
Speaker 6: a human being. That best Will has figured out a
Speaker 6: way to talk to his friends honestly, which is, you.
Speaker 1: Know, maybe a difficult thing we all have to learn
Speaker 1: how to do, but it.
Speaker 6: Doesn't give oh my gosh, like look at the person
Speaker 6: he's grown into.
Speaker 4: You know, Robin's girlfriend went from just being a candy
Speaker 4: striper to being a full on doctor part way through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, graduated without going to say the education system is
Speaker 2: fun up, we go out.
Speaker 3: As somebody who you know, we want so much TV,
Speaker 3: so many movies, that's what we do. And obviously, as
Speaker 3: everyone knows in who listens to this podcast, who makes
Speaker 3: this kind of stuff, there's just so much TV out there,
Speaker 3: So obviously you were not the biggest lover of Stranger Things.
Speaker 3: But what would they have to do after this to
Speaker 3: get you excited? Like what is the trailer or the
Speaker 3: concept where you're like, okay, wait, I thought I was out,
Speaker 3: but they got me back in like that.
Speaker 6: It's a max of three years later because I barely
Speaker 6: remember it enough to like carry on through this. You
Speaker 6: cannot give five six years of delay time.
Speaker 1: We need to go. It's led by.
Speaker 5: Story wise or actually release date wise.
Speaker 1: Release date wise, it needs to be within the next
Speaker 1: three years. Dipshit.
Speaker 6: Derek needs to be at the forefront of whatever you're doing.
Speaker 6: That kid is astorable.
Speaker 3: Derek when he first appeared and now she loves him
Speaker 3: Aaron Texas After the first group of episodes, he was like,
Speaker 3: I love this kid, He's amazing.
Speaker 6: Was like, what are you talking about? He's so annoying,
Speaker 6: Like why do you care? But by the end I
Speaker 6: was like, I would die for him.
Speaker 1: He's perfect.
Speaker 4: And when they're trying the scene when they're leaving the
Speaker 4: upside Down and and what's his name is? With Levin
Speaker 4: and Derek is waving at him from across the.
Speaker 1: Love, my heart is so warm. I love them. Yeah.
Speaker 6: So if it's Derek at the forefront and you put
Speaker 6: Derek in a position where I'm like, oh no, oh
Speaker 6: my god, don't bring back the military this time. I
Speaker 6: have no idea why they were here at all except
Speaker 6: to appear to be obstructions but not actually obstruct anything.
Speaker 1: They're so annoying.
Speaker 6: No military, just make it Mindflare and Derek, I'm back in.
Speaker 3: Otherwise, Bro, Derek would terrorize him. It would just be
Speaker 3: like you know that meme of the symptoms where it's
Speaker 3: like my kidnapper throwing me away, and it's Ralph coming
Speaker 3: back into the house. Yes, it's like after you talked
Speaker 3: for three hours, that would be like five minutes of
Speaker 3: Derek being with Vecna. Okay, I want to ask you guys,
Speaker 3: what's your random MVP? Because I do have one that
Speaker 3: I have had basic my random view MVP. Bro, it's
Speaker 3: Holly's costume in Vecna Palace. Every time I saw her,
Speaker 3: I was like, show me this fucking movie, like, I
Speaker 3: want to be in this Camtoss, I want to be
Speaker 3: put this girl in Legend, make a remake like she
Speaker 3: looks like a magical, fantastical girl who can also kill
Speaker 3: a bad guy with a knife.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 3: I just thought that costuming was so much better than
Speaker 3: ninety percent of the costuming and the show and on
Speaker 3: the big screen two. I was like, yes, Holly, you
Speaker 3: are a leading character in that costume. So that was mine. Jason,
Speaker 3: what's your random MVP?
Speaker 2: My random MVP? He is the nostalgia montages. I must
Speaker 2: sucker for those, and I thought they worked. I thought that,
Speaker 2: you know, the editing style seemed aimed at the like
Speaker 2: TikTok fan editor to just be able to like rip
Speaker 2: the montage directly from Netflix and put it on social media.
Speaker 2: And I must. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: I think, in absence of meaningful character evolution and progress,
Speaker 2: the the simple esthetic physical evolution of seeing the characters
Speaker 2: grow up over time on screen. Yeah, was a hit
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 1: It got me.
Speaker 2: That got me to like to be like these forget
Speaker 2: about the bat, These actual people spent ten years of
Speaker 2: their lives doing this and we were all there, which,
Speaker 2: by the way, and just let me just soft launch
Speaker 2: another theory I have, and it's like, why does media
Speaker 2: literacy kind of suck? Like? What is storytelling about in
Speaker 2: the twenty twenties? And I think a lot of it
Speaker 2: can be explained by Stranger Things. It's not about a
Speaker 2: greater story arc development, plot movement anymore. It's about creating
Speaker 2: a feeling of we all were there and watch this
Speaker 2: thing happen, whether artificially or not. You know, Like there's
Speaker 2: been a lot of talk about whether you know, monoculture
Speaker 2: exists anymore, and it kind of doesn't.
Speaker 1: But it's a lot of.
Speaker 2: Storytelling following the Internet is about understanding what is going
Speaker 2: on in a particular Internet conversation space, and I think
Speaker 2: Stranger Things has managed to harness that in a way
Speaker 2: that is really interesting and it probably tells us where
Speaker 2: things are going, because it's significantly about capturing the conversation,
Speaker 2: understanding what the fans are talking about, letting the fans
Speaker 2: feel like we're all around the TV watching this thing,
Speaker 2: talking about it, whether it sucks, whether it's good, whether
Speaker 2: it's not, and it's let and it's about the journey
Speaker 2: we take as an audience and less about who lives,
Speaker 2: he dies, who made it.
Speaker 3: I think you make a really great point in there.
Speaker 3: I also think that the confluence of Stranger Things and
Speaker 3: Game of Ferns coming out alongside each other really brought
Speaker 3: back that notion of a shared viewing. I would also say,
Speaker 3: I think that you are onto something very important it Jason,
Speaker 3: and I also think this is part of the issue
Speaker 3: with the rollout of the show, is that, yeah, that
Speaker 3: is what it was, and it was an event for
Speaker 3: many many people. I mean, I don't know if you
Speaker 3: guys know, but the way that the movie was rolled
Speaker 3: out is it was an RSVP event and you could
Speaker 3: not buy a ticket to see the movie. You could
Speaker 3: only buy a twenty dollar concessions ticket to see it
Speaker 3: in theaters. You had to buy the concessions because Netflix
Speaker 3: was not allowed to make money they had to pay
Speaker 3: the theaters to put it in those concession vouchers. They
Speaker 3: saw twenty five million dollars in concessions only, and that's
Speaker 3: the numbers that the cinema gave us. This was a
Speaker 3: huge event, and I will tell you guys from seeing
Speaker 3: it on the cinema, it was optimized to be seen
Speaker 3: in the cinema to be a monoculture moment, and Netflix
Speaker 3: did not commit to it, and I think that is
Speaker 3: ultimately going to see be seen as the biggest issue.
Speaker 3: I think there's a version where if Netflix had had
Speaker 3: better relationships with the cinema, not something they've ever been
Speaker 3: interested in, but if they had done that, I think
Speaker 3: there's a world where this rolls out and is a
Speaker 3: five hundred million dollar release on the finale, if you
Speaker 3: roll it out properly and it is seen as the
Speaker 3: crossover that could have made TV film a thing. I
Speaker 3: don't think Netflix cares about that, and I think that
Speaker 3: is ultimately the issue is there is a monoculture, there
Speaker 3: is a people wanting to be involved. Netflix just assumed
Speaker 3: that doing it in the same space they'd been doing
Speaker 3: it and for ten years with what even then it
Speaker 3: had outgrown in my opinion the streaming space.
Speaker 2: Just a quick thing. I think my conspiracy theory on
Speaker 2: that is Netflix is you know, kind of like a
Speaker 2: C student who gets a comment on their report card,
Speaker 2: like has potential, just needs a try harder. I think
Speaker 2: Netflix is very happy to present to theaters and the
Speaker 2: entertainment industry at large. Hey, look what we could do
Speaker 2: if we wanted to.
Speaker 3: So real.
Speaker 5: Deck mode they're going to.
Speaker 3: We could do this.
Speaker 2: If we wanted, and so play ball with us, because
Speaker 2: we could if we.
Speaker 4: Want real Speaking of locations like movie theaters, my MVP
Speaker 4: Jimmy fast Hands, the fact that he ran before everything started,
Speaker 4: gave up the radio station, gave our entire crew a
Speaker 4: place to hang out. I guess it built in a
Speaker 4: secret room already that just like existed there in the passages.
Speaker 4: Jimmy fast Hands A plus, you were the best part
Speaker 4: in that group project because you left and then came
Speaker 4: back and then let Robin do the radio show and
Speaker 4: you didn't even show up that day. We never meet
Speaker 4: Jimmy fast Hands. It doesn't matter MVP.
Speaker 6: That like, because my MVP is Ted Wheeler. He said,
Speaker 6: I'm done with all of them, but family don't love me.
Speaker 6: I don't get no bacon. I can't even hit these
Speaker 6: golf balls in peace.
Speaker 1: I'm get here.
Speaker 2: I haven't three years.
Speaker 3: Like sexy teenagers.
Speaker 5: Like what did they tell Ted?
Speaker 4: Because she got up in the middle of the hospital,
Speaker 4: he we assume is still in the hospital. And then
Speaker 4: at the end, like everyone comes back, he's at graduation.
Speaker 5: What did they tell him anything? Did he ask? Does
Speaker 5: he care? Yeah? Earthquake?
Speaker 2: What did they tell anybody? But you know what they
Speaker 2: tell What did they tell the families of the five
Speaker 2: hundred soldiers who were getting down brutally in the letters?
Speaker 1: Are they getting.
Speaker 3: From from guys? What about the fucking Derek's family who
Speaker 3: got kidnapped? Does Ian points out? Like what did not
Speaker 3: have to do with the earth quake? Also, how about
Speaker 3: the women? This is another thing like and I'm the
Speaker 3: pregnant women who are just dead. But like, to me,
Speaker 3: it's so funny too, because I'm just like guys, like
Speaker 3: you made these problems for yourself. That's the funniest thing
Speaker 3: is like you added every single thing. Here is TV.
Speaker 4: Who killed more people? Vena or Hopper and Nancy combined.
Speaker 2: Well on screen? Hopper and well, I think well, I
Speaker 2: think Vecna theoretically, you you would expect that he killed
Speaker 2: more and we didn't see it.
Speaker 3: They just haven't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like on screen, Harbor and Nancy are drenched an.
Speaker 3: My favorite thing is like, then Nancy just like goes
Speaker 3: and vis a journalist and she's like, yeah, I was
Speaker 3: a child soldier for fifty years, but don't worry now,
Speaker 3: I'm just the journalist, a journalist.
Speaker 6: Who doesn't feel she needs an education to do that job.
Speaker 6: She's like, look, I want school paper.
Speaker 1: Good enough, guys.
Speaker 3: I gotta say, look, as somebody who also did not
Speaker 3: get a journalism degree, I'm on Nancy side for this one. Okay, guys.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it just happens. Sometimes you just fall into it.
Speaker 3: Sometimes you don't get a degree. Sometimes you get beaten
Speaker 3: up by the demo dogs. Could Joelle, actually, before we
Speaker 3: get to your final MVP, ask your question which did
Speaker 3: not at any point come into my head when I
Speaker 3: watched it on the big screen and was all I
Speaker 3: could think about on TV? Who was missing in the
Speaker 3: final battle, Joel? Which characters that have been like a
Speaker 3: major antagonist throughout this entire thing, and we're able to
Speaker 3: show up at every point otherwise in the film and show,
Speaker 3: but which is not able.
Speaker 6: Hit I have no idea like why the military like
Speaker 6: was just not a part of Like we have no
Speaker 6: final standoff with them. Really, the demo Gorgans are gone,
Speaker 6: which is confusing. We're in the we're in their planet,
Speaker 6: this is their whole where.
Speaker 2: Is why aren't there five hundred of them swarming the
Speaker 2: radio tower?
Speaker 3: Where send them off? Ones like listen.
Speaker 6: In D and D not that long ago if you
Speaker 6: don't know, giant multi headed dragon legendary, the minions that
Speaker 6: we had to get through to get to Tiamat, like
Speaker 6: it was a really a flog.
Speaker 1: Just to try to get there.
Speaker 6: The fact that it's just Vecna being like wo like
Speaker 6: just ship out his little fingers with his little castle,
Speaker 6: like I was just incensed. And then on top of like,
Speaker 6: this is what listen to have a failure of both
Speaker 6: of your villains, both the military not a strong enough
Speaker 6: for with a leader that we know nothing about and care.
Speaker 2: About the best Yeah less said about doctor k that
Speaker 2: was a ridiculous who cares? Who fucking cares?
Speaker 1: Awful?
Speaker 6: But then but then also to have the Demogorgans who
Speaker 6: have been you know, really the last time we say
Speaker 6: the Demogorghans is in the hospital when they're chasing down
Speaker 6: Max and Lucas when they suddenly go dumb and they're like,
Speaker 6: can't follow a sound for some reason, Like I was incensed.
Speaker 1: I was like they.
Speaker 3: Did. I would also say one of the things that
Speaker 3: I want to know, guys, how would you feel if
Speaker 3: you were the parents of one of the people that
Speaker 3: Eddie Munson is still thought to have been a serial
Speaker 3: killer of? And then a guy got up on stage
Speaker 3: and did a speech in the style of the person
Speaker 3: who killed your child and then took off a shirt
Speaker 3: with the cult name that you think was in charge
Speaker 3: of kill and everyone cheered that I would I would
Speaker 3: not know what was going on there. I'd need to
Speaker 3: know more. I feel like the whole never get never
Speaker 3: letting people know Eddie wasn't a serial killer is one
Speaker 3: of the craziest problems of the show. Also, who who
Speaker 3: believes an earthquake did all of this? We gotta do
Speaker 3: at least like a nuclear power upon Like that's why
Speaker 3: you saw weird things. The power plant structure.
Speaker 1: Earthquake happens in a matter of like a minute.
Speaker 3: Max, like, like, why was the military taking over your
Speaker 3: like neighborhood because of an earthquake. I live in California.
Speaker 3: That never happens. Stupid.
Speaker 2: All right, let's take a quick break and then we
Speaker 2: will leave you with our final straight thoughts, but the
Speaker 2: final season question mark of straight quick and we're back, okay,
Speaker 2: straight thoughts. Leftover thoughts such as, like what was the
Speaker 2: deal with doctor K. I was like, don't even care.
Speaker 1: About Yeah, I don't care about Doctor K.
Speaker 2: I don't care about it.
Speaker 1: Didn't give enough.
Speaker 3: I don't understand why they bought one of the most
Speaker 3: iconic action actors of all time, Linda Hamilton in had
Speaker 3: Nancy essentially just take on her role from Terminator Too
Speaker 3: and never have them like team up or fight or battle.
Speaker 3: Like it was so obvious that the parallels are that
Speaker 3: they didn't know what to do with doctor K. They
Speaker 3: obviously cost Linda and didn't know what to do with
Speaker 3: her character. But it's a real shame, Like I thought,
Speaker 3: what if she was like the original, Like she's also
Speaker 3: a psychic and she was one of the earlies so
Speaker 3: many ways, Like there were so many things that felt
Speaker 3: like it could I never understood how motivation was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that they at My theory is they
Speaker 2: got like data back. That's like people don't care about
Speaker 2: doctor k so they just never pursued it.
Speaker 3: That's what else like to.
Speaker 6: Me, the whole show feels like cut her from the
Speaker 6: show with respect.
Speaker 1: I think it would have better for her and for us.
Speaker 1: What A was also talking.
Speaker 6: About spending money and not knowing what to do. Why
Speaker 6: did you buy Prince's music?
Speaker 5: And yes, this is all right, have a cool.
Speaker 1: Damn it too cool? Mont?
Speaker 2: It was that it was a feature.
Speaker 4: I couldn't let them get away with the one but
Speaker 4: using purple rain like that?
Speaker 5: Which one? Offensive? Using purple which one? There in her
Speaker 5: Goodbye kiss?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was horrible and like I wrote down, just
Speaker 4: because you can get the rights to a song doesn't
Speaker 4: mean you're using it right.
Speaker 5: They did not.
Speaker 3: I did look into this because I was like, how
Speaker 3: the funk did they get the pretty right? And I know,
Speaker 3: but it was no But it was Kate. It was
Speaker 3: Kate Bush. Apparently Kate Bush was the one who encouraged
Speaker 3: the Prince estate and was like, hey, this show was
Speaker 3: great for me and look streaming money for me.
Speaker 2: Like it's like, yeah, I got I got my castle
Speaker 2: re roofed exactly.
Speaker 3: She was like, bro, get some I'm like Prince you
Speaker 3: have enough money the family. I do think this show
Speaker 3: is okay.
Speaker 4: For a show that like really revitalized Kate Bush's song
Speaker 4: and Master of Puppets like had these huge boosts from
Speaker 4: the show. I think they were really trying to get
Speaker 4: another moment like that in the season and it raising
Speaker 4: really Worriver.
Speaker 3: Also as well. The difference between like this is not
Speaker 3: to insult Kate Bush an icon in England where I
Speaker 3: grew up, very famous pop star. Right, a lot of
Speaker 3: kids had never heard of her, had never heard that song, bitch,
Speaker 3: everyone knows Prince. That's the difference, Like you've actually play
Speaker 3: a Prince song and be like it's purple Rain. And
Speaker 3: also when Doves Cry, like two of the most famous songs.
Speaker 3: When Doves cryes very famously in Romeo and Juliet too,
Speaker 3: so like a lot of people know different versions of it.
Speaker 3: Like I just don't think they should have done like
Speaker 3: they should have even if they just had like nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety nine when something had gone right and they'd all
Speaker 3: celebrate it. I don't know. I just feel like other
Speaker 3: other songs, a lot of it is correct.
Speaker 1: That was a crazy song.
Speaker 3: How dare You crazy?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Straight straighty Final thoughts about Yeah.
Speaker 3: I'm upset that they didn't do the meme where somebody said, well,
Speaker 3: we've seen stranger things. I think at this point, just
Speaker 3: do it. Just say it, like man Isaiah was saying
Speaker 3: that the whole time, and just like fucking somebody say it,
Speaker 3: say stranger things.
Speaker 6: If you do a kid relaunch, let's keep the kid
Speaker 6: the focus of the show on the new group of kids.
Speaker 1: I think eighty seven new characters in the final season
Speaker 1: was a choice. Enough time. I needed more Max.
Speaker 6: And eleven times they were my favorite. I love seeing
Speaker 6: the season three Hang, I thought it was super cute.
Speaker 6: I needed more Justin always, just because I love Dustin.
Speaker 6: I just felt like we didn't get enough of this
Speaker 6: core group of kids at the end, all of their
Speaker 6: various like connections, and it was really a problem. So
Speaker 6: if we if we do this again, and I we're
Speaker 6: gonna do it again, let's take the focus on the kids.
Speaker 6: I think that's where the magic is.
Speaker 3: I think you're right. I also think for me, like
Speaker 3: I want them to stick to the character stuff that
Speaker 3: works and building on it instead of always new, new,
Speaker 3: new expansion. I think like they forget that what made
Speaker 3: the show so popular in the first place was four
Speaker 3: kids on bikes, very et very intimate, Like you can
Speaker 3: have a big story, but you need the heart of it.
Speaker 3: And I agree with you, Joelle. Other than Holly, I
Speaker 3: didn't need any of the other kids. It could have
Speaker 3: just been Holly. He didn't need twelve Holley like, you're fine,
Speaker 3: like whatever, Like I think stuff like that. I also
Speaker 3: would say for me, I think if you're gonna go
Speaker 3: fan service, full fan service. I don't see why when
Speaker 3: they went to Dimension X or the upside Down, we
Speaker 3: couldn't have seen, you know, Billy come back and try
Speaker 3: and help Max a little bit, or fucking you know
Speaker 3: people that they'd killed off in the upside Down. I'm like,
Speaker 3: if you're gonna do full fan service, like where's Eddie Mounch,
Speaker 3: we gonna make the market. Yeah, they're the montage, but
Speaker 3: I want to see the power. Jason, I'm now learning
Speaker 3: that you love a montage. This is great. I'm gonna
Speaker 3: be everything that I said to you.
Speaker 2: Now let me say, first of all, difference, I don't
Speaker 2: always love a montage. Here, let me preview it. Let
Speaker 2: me preview a take that I think is going to
Speaker 2: be divisive. Uh well, PENELTI whether I think it's either
Speaker 2: the penultimate or the season finale of Heared Rivalry Montage
Speaker 2: Too Long. We went through like the entire song along
Speaker 2: with the montage to jump ahead for years. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: like it was identical pacing. It was like each identical
Speaker 2: constituent piece of each year in the montage, give us
Speaker 2: you one, give us your one, and then speed through
Speaker 2: two and three. It doesn't need to be the exactly
Speaker 2: any one anyway, But I thought, listen, the nostalgia is
Speaker 2: what works the best in strength the month, and so
Speaker 2: the montages work. I think my straight thought and is
Speaker 2: whether or not Eleven is alive and safe in the
Speaker 2: place with the three waterfalls. I believe she is. I
Speaker 2: believe that they don't have any idea what the three
Speaker 2: waterfall location is. That they just were like, give us
Speaker 2: a place, and they just did put that in there.
Speaker 2: Maybe we get more of that in a in the
Speaker 2: spin off. But my question is like, why did why
Speaker 2: did Eleven go up that way? Now she has to
Speaker 2: go like ten miles around this.
Speaker 1: Huge to get to the fucking place. Why did she
Speaker 1: go that way?
Speaker 2: Go towards the.
Speaker 7: Village, go towards the buildings, go up the side where
Speaker 7: the buildings are. Why did you it be like I
Speaker 7: want to go to the Like it'd be like you
Speaker 7: have to go to a place on the other side
Speaker 7: of the Grain Canyon, and you go from the other
Speaker 7: side of the Grand Canyon and go look across at it.
Speaker 3: Now you have to go across, like find a way across.
Speaker 3: I would also say, let's think about this, right if
Speaker 3: you think about like how we've seen eleven evolve over
Speaker 3: the years. This girl only just learned how to speak
Speaker 3: in like full sentences, and she's like sixteen. I imagine
Speaker 3: she's going to roll into that finish town and be like,
Speaker 3: where's my where's my where's the coulp? Can he be
Speaker 3: my dad? Like she doesn't know how to like live
Speaker 3: in normal we can't outside. Well, so I'm like very interested.
Speaker 2: Can I get Can I get a waterfall count?
Speaker 3: Really quick?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: That is?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I wonder Aaron.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I thought leading up to
Speaker 4: the finale is, you know, Rosie talked about the original
Speaker 4: pitch of the show Montak where it was going to
Speaker 4: be an anthology, and after season one, people loved the
Speaker 4: characters so much they kept them and they just decided
Speaker 4: to do a show with all these characters, and leading
Speaker 4: into the finale episode, I was like, you know, I
Speaker 4: kind of would have loved if they had done an
Speaker 4: anthology like we have seen White Lotus do it on TV.
Speaker 4: We can do an anthology series that people will love.
Speaker 4: But kind of like Jason, when those montages hit and
Speaker 4: I saw all the little kids meeting eleven and I
Speaker 4: saw them in the basement and I saw them like,
Speaker 4: you know, she has to go change in the bathroom.
Speaker 4: But once the door opened, I was like, you're right,
Speaker 4: it was good that you kept these characters.
Speaker 5: I like these characters, so that's my life.
Speaker 4: Like I still would love a Stranger Things anthology where
Speaker 4: they fight vampires or dragons or other classic D and
Speaker 4: D villains.
Speaker 5: I would love that. But this worked. I think you.
Speaker 1: Felt like, yeah, mmm wow.
Speaker 6: You know Max and Lucas the actors that play them,
Speaker 6: Justine and we got a lot of good crid actors
Speaker 6: out of this. He really helped the next generation of
Speaker 6: American actors, which you know is always a struggle for us.
Speaker 6: The Brits come over here take our jobs.
Speaker 3: The Australia, it's all the countries where there is universal
Speaker 3: healthcast so people can.
Speaker 1: Like focus on the.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why does Iceland have so much good music?
Speaker 6: What it's It's a priority over there, It's not over here.
Speaker 6: So thank you Duffer Brothers and Netflix for giving us
Speaker 6: some American actors to.
Speaker 1: Look forward to.
Speaker 3: Yes, I like that, Joel.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, stranger things, let's put the pin in it
Speaker 2: for now.
Speaker 3: Clearly we're gonna will know.
Speaker 2: But it's been wonderful to spend this time in the
Speaker 2: upside down with you. On the next episode of Extra Vision,
Speaker 2: We're diving to fall Out two four. This episode of
Speaker 2: Thanks for Listening, Bye Bye x ray Vision is hosted
Speaker 2: by Jason SEPs Young and Rosie Knight and is a
Speaker 2: production of iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kolefman.
Speaker 2: Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Speaker 3: Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wack.
Speaker 2: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme
Speaker 2: songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and
Speaker 3: Heidi our discord moderator.