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Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you, shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening past, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict.

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Speaker 2: Anything brought to you by first Light. When I'm hunting,

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Speaker 2: I need gear that won't quit. First light builds, no compromise,

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Speaker 2: gear that keeps me in the field longer, no shortcuts,

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Speaker 2: just gear that works. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 2: dot com. That's f I R S T l I

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Speaker 2: t E dot com. Join today by wildlife photographer extraordinaire

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Speaker 2: Ronan Donovan. If you ever I don't know, man, if

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Speaker 2: you ever look at National Geographic Right or stuff like that,

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Speaker 2: or some super like amazing wildlife images that pops up

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Speaker 2: and it makes its way all over the place, like,

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Speaker 2: for instance, if you're kind of into wildlife and you

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Speaker 2: have recently seen these extraordinary images of a beaver swimming

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Speaker 2: around under the ice doing his business, or the whitest

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Speaker 2: wolves you've ever seen ganging up and killing Musko's pictures

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Speaker 2: which we're everywhere for a while. That's this guy's wildlife

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Speaker 2: bile just turned photographer filmmaker did Kingdom of the White

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Speaker 2: Wolf for a nat GEOFILM series. He's a national geographic

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Speaker 2: explorer and storytelling fellow and describes himself as a conservation photographer.

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Speaker 3: Don got that right, Yeah, that sounds great.

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Speaker 2: And what we're talking about is who introed us was

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Speaker 2: one of our camera guys who's a vision who paints

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Speaker 2: his pictures of visual imagery. Rick Smith and I was

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Speaker 2: talking about how me and Rick getting a lot of fights.

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Speaker 2: One of the biggest fights I've gotten in about with

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Speaker 2: Rick Smith was about a white T shirt. We're filming

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Speaker 2: one time and we were in Hawaii and I had

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Speaker 2: on a white T shirt. Rick's like, you can't film

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Speaker 2: in a white T shirt? And I said, watch me,

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Speaker 2: and we got to fight about it. I wore the

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Speaker 2: white T shirt and to this day when I see

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Speaker 2: that footage, I'm like, Wow, you really can't wear a

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Speaker 2: white T shirt.

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Speaker 3: They can't do it. Yeah, Rick, generally everything that he

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Speaker 3: puts out is very well thought out.

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Speaker 2: Everything is not thought out. Sometimes Rick is wrong. Rick's

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Speaker 2: off and wrong, and then we have there's a thing

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Speaker 2: that will happen where.

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Speaker 3: Uh are are.

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Speaker 2: We have another guy, Seth, who comes on the show

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Speaker 2: all the time, and Seth and Rick aren't exactly aligned

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Speaker 2: on certain political issues. For instance, COVID respects. They had

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Speaker 2: very different views on what would be an appropriate response

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Speaker 2: to COVID. And my god that I get sick of

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Speaker 2: hearing about that. You'd be like out in the woods,

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Speaker 2: you know, camping or whatever, and just in the background

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Speaker 2: you just hear those two. Yeah, me and Rick Bout

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Speaker 2: came to blows over white T shirts. But he introduced us,

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Speaker 2: and here we are.

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Speaker 3: Here we are. We'll see how many fights we get

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Speaker 3: in something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, tell me, so we're not gonna We're not gonna

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Speaker 2: be together long enough. We have to go spend a

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Speaker 2: week or two together and then we'll get a fight.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about the the the beaver under the ice thing.

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Speaker 2: It never occurred to me. You don't see pictures of

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Speaker 2: beavers under the ice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's you know, that's like their

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Speaker 3: whole winter world. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm always explaining that. I was explaining that to a

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Speaker 2: guy the other day, where a guy had a problem

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Speaker 2: with beavers that plugged up his irrigation ditch. But then

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Speaker 2: they drained the ditch, and I was explaining, they make mistakes.

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Speaker 2: Like he thought he was cool and could build like

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Speaker 2: an under the ice environment here because he's planning on

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Speaker 2: for four months. Whatever he's planning on. He's trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out how can I live where I never go

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Speaker 2: into the open air, And then you drained.

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Speaker 3: His spot.

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Speaker 2: Now he's in a tough position. He's got to strike

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Speaker 2: off cross country.

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Speaker 3: Beaver and winter without his food, cash and a home.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's like he made a bad mistake. Probably

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Speaker 2: he's made a bad mistake and then he's gonna be

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Speaker 2: like get killed by a yard.

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Speaker 3: Doge, cougars whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, to tell about that a little bit,

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Speaker 2: like you wanted to someone said, hey, get a picture

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Speaker 2: of a beaver under the ice.

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Speaker 3: The assignment came through and it was. It was with

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Speaker 3: the writer Ben gold Farm. Yep, he was great.

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Speaker 2: We talked about having him on the show. He wrote

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Speaker 2: a book called Eager.

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Speaker 3: You should totally have him on. Really, he's really interesting.

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Speaker 3: He's presenting Bowsing a few times, great times. Communicator, funny,

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Speaker 3: easy going guy and very well researched on all things beaver.

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Speaker 3: And he's got a new book that was about the

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Speaker 3: Boss Roads, yeah, which is also another interesting but yeah, he.

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Speaker 2: Mark one of our colleagues, Mark Kenyon, had him on

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Speaker 2: the show. Yeah about the road stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen him present and he's great.

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Speaker 4: Oh there he is with Dan Flores.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I mean there's a picture of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure there are buds.

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Speaker 4: You can tell sounds like you're late to the he

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Speaker 4: needs a hair cut.

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Speaker 2: Let me see that.

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Speaker 4: All right, that's definitely Dan.

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Speaker 2: You can see that's Dan.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure they're good friends.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so go on.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, the story got pitched and it was you know,

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Speaker 3: it was kind of like a benefit of beaver's on

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Speaker 3: dry landscapes kind of the story to make it succinct,

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Speaker 3: and they wanted a lot of livestock out culture kind

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Speaker 3: of working lands with beaver's kind of images and some

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Speaker 3: natural history of beavers. And I pitched the idea of like, well,

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Speaker 3: I want to see what they do under the ice.

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Speaker 3: I want to I'm accessing there winter food cash. And

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Speaker 3: it took it took like three winters of trying.

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Speaker 2: I'm serious.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there's like there's some pictures that are of

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Speaker 3: the initial mistakes.

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Speaker 2: Let me, I just want to tell people, if you're

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Speaker 2: listening your you're screwed. No, we're gonna do our. Damn,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna do our.

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Speaker 4: It'll be a rich.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is mostly the vast majority of our audience

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Speaker 2: only listens. Okay, I'm sorry, and they'll still have We're

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Speaker 2: gonna show a lot of imagery that if you want

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Speaker 2: to check out and us talking about it, go to

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Speaker 2: watch the show on YouTube.

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Speaker 4: Yes, please do.

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Speaker 2: You'll see the imagery. You'll see the imagery. We will

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Speaker 2: do our best to try to tell you what's going on.

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Speaker 4: Your podcast network YouTube channel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, not the regular meat Eat.

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Speaker 2: Media podcast network. If not, I'll do my best to

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Speaker 2: say what you're seeing. Here is a beaver.

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Speaker 3: This a beaver underwater.

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Speaker 4: At the top of the screen. There's a bit of ice.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the first few attempts were like, essentially I started

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Speaker 3: too late one year, the first winter, tell me why, scheduling. Basically,

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Speaker 3: I started too late. Like the ice is mark, yeah, March,

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Speaker 3: so it's like a warm March, and it was everything

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Speaker 3: was starting to mountain, so you get run off, you

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Speaker 3: get sediment build up in the water column basically. And

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Speaker 3: I was at the site along the Rocky Mountain front

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Speaker 3: in Depou year, just this cool little ranch that's up

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Speaker 3: against public and was putting this system under the ice.

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Speaker 3: And it's this whole elaborate setup where it's like, I

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Speaker 3: gotta drill test holes, just a small little chainsaw hole

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Speaker 3: through the ice to put a GoPro under water with

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Speaker 3: a light to be able to just like to see

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Speaker 3: what's going on, Like where, what's the underwater world?

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Speaker 2: Like do you mind if I real quick tell people something?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 2: Uh, I realized we kind of left something a little

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Speaker 2: bit unsaid in the North. I'm gonna start with something.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna start with a different thing. If you take

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Speaker 2: beavers from the North and transplant them down south, you know,

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Speaker 2: it takes them a while to realize they don't need

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Speaker 2: to do all this. They're like, old, we got to

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Speaker 2: make a food cash. Yeah, the beaver's down south.

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Speaker 3: They no, you don't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you take a beer from the north

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Speaker 2: and turn down south, it'll be a while. So he

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Speaker 2: realizes he doesn't need to go through all this bullshit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like someone who grew up in the Great Depression.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, just stuff and its stuff and cash in their mattress.

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Speaker 2: Like why does my mom so a beaver? So this

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Speaker 2: is this is about the North.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: A beaver needs to have deep water. They like deep

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Speaker 2: water inis it's where they escape. But they need to

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Speaker 2: have deep water in the winter because everything's going to freeze.

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Speaker 2: So they'll have a lodge or a bank den with

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Speaker 2: a submarine entrance where they can come in a hole

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Speaker 2: underwater and then go up into a cavity that they

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Speaker 2: excavate out of a riverbank or the shore of a

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Speaker 2: lake or whatever. Or they create a dome shaped lodge

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Speaker 2: and they have a cavity in there that is somewhat

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Speaker 2: insulated and they can live up in there for food

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Speaker 2: because they can't get out of the ice until they

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Speaker 2: they're very good at busting up through the ice. But

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Speaker 2: when they can't get out of the ice, they start

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Speaker 2: collecting all kinds of twigs and small things, willow, whatever

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Speaker 2: they can get to they like, and they weigh it

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Speaker 2: down with big heavy logs so that it pins it

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Speaker 2: all down. And then throughout the winter they can just

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Speaker 2: go to this cash and then they usually have the

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Speaker 2: cash right in front of their lodge or right in

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Speaker 2: front of their bank den, and usually skirting in on

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Speaker 2: the left or right side. They have a runway and

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Speaker 2: the entrance up into their hut or bank den, and

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Speaker 2: that's their food pile. And a food pile can be

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Speaker 2: the size.

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Speaker 5: Of a parked truck, and it's visually it's like a

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Speaker 5: raft essentially that they're sinking to the bottom of the

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Speaker 5: stream bed or the river bed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a surface play like you can bottom yeah,

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Speaker 2: until you get a couple of feet of snow. You

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Speaker 2: can spot the food cash. But it's like an iceberg

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Speaker 2: for whatever's sticking up. How what's the formula with the iceberg,

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Speaker 2: like ten percent of it or something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thirty seventy something like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever sticking up that thing is probably packed with

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Speaker 2: feed all the way down to the bottom, and they

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Speaker 2: excavate all that mud out to keep it deep. And

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Speaker 2: if you jump, like if you're looking for a place

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Speaker 2: to dive in a pond, if you jump off a

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Speaker 2: beaver lodge, you might be hitting six eight feet of

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Speaker 2: water because they excavate all that mud out to build

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Speaker 2: that lodge and it creates this big deep pool and

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Speaker 2: that's their refuge if like under the ice where there

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Speaker 2: are cash is so trying to get a picture one

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Speaker 2: going about his business down there is what we're talking about, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: said state.

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Speaker 3: It's a good setup. Yeah, I think it is. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's it's like the one of the coolest things that

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Speaker 3: an animal does in the way of like casing food

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Speaker 3: for months and months. Like there aren't many other animals

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Speaker 3: that can do that, like you know a lot of

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Speaker 3: carnivorous cash, but they get discovered pretty quickly by birds

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Speaker 3: or other carnivores. But like the beavers have this thing

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Speaker 3: where they're able to just store yeah way north like

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Speaker 3: in Alaska or edge of the Arctic. I mean it's like, yeah,

222
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Speaker 3: six months plus of food that they need to cash

223
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Speaker 3: in this form of and it's just a cambium, Like

224
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Speaker 3: it's just this little tiny bit and they're mainly just

225
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Speaker 3: I think a lot of it's just maintenance, you know,

226
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Speaker 3: where they're just like feeding the micro gut biome in

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Speaker 3: their stomach enough to like five versus like I don't

228
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Speaker 3: know if they necessarily are gaining weight. It's just kind

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Speaker 3: of like a maintenance thing. And so these beavers that

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Speaker 3: I was focused on trying to get these pictures, like

231
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Speaker 3: the beginning, it was just murky water sediment you get

232
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Speaker 3: I was actually amazed. You get a little bit of runoff,

233
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Speaker 3: even if it's like teens temperature and you have sun,

234
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Speaker 3: you'd start to see in the water column just a

235
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Speaker 3: little waze coming in. Yeah, so the first one, like

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Speaker 3: the next couple of pictures here, Phil, there's so.

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Speaker 2: That's your setup.

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Speaker 3: That's the setup. Yeah, that's kind of the crazy lights

239
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Speaker 3: set up underwater, can camera, live feed to a laptop,

240
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Speaker 3: and you know, beavers are mainly nocturnal, and that was

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Speaker 3: what I was going on. So it's basically a lot

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Speaker 3: of cold nights doing that.

243
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Speaker 2: So here you are, you just laid out on the

244
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Speaker 2: ice with all this electronics.

245
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Speaker 3: It looks like ice fishing set up without the shanty to.

246
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Speaker 2: Keep you warm. Yeah, let me hit you with one

247
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:23,960
Speaker 2: thing about this, just because it's coming up right away.

248
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,079
Speaker 2: They're very like if you go in, if you're trapping

249
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Speaker 2: and you go in, set up a lodge and your

250
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,000
Speaker 2: axe and holes through the ice, and they're already pretty lethargic.

251
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Speaker 2: In the winter. You might not see activity three or

252
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Speaker 2: four days because they spook so bad. Were you finding

253
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Speaker 2: that they would take a while to get used to

254
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Speaker 2: all that change.

255
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Speaker 3: They were pretty curious even like they were. Yeah, the

256
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Speaker 3: first time I set up, like next picture, you can

257
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Speaker 3: see this like pea soup beaver coming by. That was

258
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Speaker 3: the first night really. Yeah, Yeah, because they they're basically

259
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Speaker 3: that's the.

260
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Speaker 2: First night, the first year. Yep, oh shit, I'd be

261
00:12:59,040 --> 00:12:59,560
Speaker 2: happy with that.

262
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,720
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, working on different.

263
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Speaker 3: But the pose is cool, Like I love that image.

264
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Speaker 3: It's the beaver with a stick in his mouth and

265
00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,040
Speaker 3: a curvetail, Like you can kind of tell it's a beaver,

266
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Speaker 3: but the people that are listening, it's just like a

267
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Speaker 3: You could just throw a whole bag of gravel and

268
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 3: sand and mud into the frame and you can kind

269
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Speaker 3: of see a beaver through it with the ice on

270
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Speaker 3: top of it.

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Speaker 4: It could also be a rat that had drowned, and.

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Speaker 2: Yea, it's clear.

273
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Speaker 3: If you think it couldn't be a rat or a beaver,

274
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Speaker 3: then my editors are gonna be like, that's not gonna work.

275
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Speaker 2: So they're like, so that's like a dead rat and

276
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Speaker 2: you're tough.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. You just made that up. You just created that.

278
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Speaker 3: The next picture was getting a little bit closer. This

279
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Speaker 3: is the same site you can see. So the other

280
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Speaker 3: thing about starting too late was they'd pretty much gone

281
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Speaker 3: through most of their food cash already and they were

282
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Speaker 3: already getting access out of the ice. Yeah, because the

283
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,880
Speaker 3: stuff was melting on the edges and they'll they will

284
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Speaker 3: come out during the winter if if they so choose

285
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Speaker 3: and there's access.

286
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Speaker 2: You know what, trappers will say, They'll say that the

287
00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,120
Speaker 2: feed pile sours okay, and they'll say that they don't

288
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,080
Speaker 2: like like after a couple of months, they really don't

289
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,440
Speaker 2: want the feed pile. And that's when they start doing

290
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,080
Speaker 2: like you know how that's always the ice is a

291
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 2: little thin along the damage. They'll start going and pressing

292
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,680
Speaker 2: up with their head and body to start trying to

293
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 2: find any way to bust out because they everybody says

294
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 2: they get sick of it.

295
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you can see this is all like

296
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,960
Speaker 3: sediments on top of the sticks. And I was so

297
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 3: this this was learning curve for me. It was like

298
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,320
Speaker 3: way too late. The beavers were already actually doing more

299
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 3: excavation up creek. So I would literally be there watching

300
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,760
Speaker 3: at night, get through all that set up, be freezing

301
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 3: my ass off, and then see like a brown wall

302
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,320
Speaker 3: come through the frame and realize that there was a

303
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,080
Speaker 3: beaver up creak just like excavating. Yeah, just doing a

304
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 3: bunch of stuff. And then it's done for the night.

305
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,320
Speaker 3: There's like no settling at all.

306
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,960
Speaker 2: And you see like all kinds of trout blasting by.

307
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,000
Speaker 3: You'd see some trouts this site had some really good

308
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,920
Speaker 3: brook trout. Next picture you can see the same kind

309
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 3: of site beaver coming by curious getting closer. So this

310
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Speaker 3: was the first year. Are you manually yeah, this is

311
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Speaker 3: all triggered.

312
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Speaker 4: You're like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

313
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Speaker 3: So I'm like seeing it coming. It's live live, but

314
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 3: it's like, no, it is, Yeah, it's a live feed.

315
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,480
Speaker 3: So it's not like a like a motion triggered camera

316
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,960
Speaker 3: system that are like camera traps that I use for

317
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 3: photographing wolves or other things bears, where you're not there

318
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 3: at all for those pictures. But for this, yeah, I'm there.

319
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Speaker 3: That laptop set up is I'm seeing what's happening. I

320
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 3: have ambient lights that are constant, that are low, so

321
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 3: I have I can see what's coming in the frame.

322
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,160
Speaker 3: I can see the beaver coming in, and then I

323
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Speaker 3: trigger the actual camera.

324
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Speaker 2: All these You're like, you're hit, You're like wham.

325
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:41,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

326
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Speaker 2: I just assumed when I saw the images, when when

327
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,720
Speaker 2: they came out, it was like, you know, I don't

328
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 2: know if in the wildlife photography world there was a little.

329
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Speaker 3: Splash nice yea.

330
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Speaker 2: I assumed it was all camera trap shit. I don't

331
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Speaker 2: know how that. I never thought how that would work underwater.

332
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 2: I guess it doesn't work underwater.

333
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we, I say we. There's some amazing

334
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,720
Speaker 3: photo engineers at National Geographic and some other companies that

335
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 3: contract and worked on the system. They did develop an

336
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 3: underwater camera trap system. I tried it out with this.

337
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 3: It just wasn't the right application. It was Maine for

338
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 3: doing like submerging, diving down maybe like fifty meters, having

339
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 3: a diver behind the system and then setting it up.

340
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 3: But it is like a self contained lights underwater housing

341
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,960
Speaker 3: has a computer model AI trained live feed video camera

342
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 3: that triggers based on what comes in front of it

343
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 3: and for my purposes. I tried it out, but it

344
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,760
Speaker 3: was like a total pain, Like I had to deploy

345
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 3: it down. I couldn't see any live feed do it

346
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,080
Speaker 3: didn't have any wiring coming up, so I couldn't really

347
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 3: control it from top side. So this was a whole

348
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,000
Speaker 3: system that developed with this guy Tom O'Brien at National

349
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:48,200
Speaker 3: Geographic Photo Engineering.

350
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Speaker 2: Will be the longest steakout you ever did.

351
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,600
Speaker 3: The first one was for this. It was like a

352
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:54,600
Speaker 3: week and a half straight.

353
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,840
Speaker 2: I mean how many hours, sorry, how many hours I

354
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:57,920
Speaker 2: would do like steak out?

355
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 3: I mean for the beaver one maybe like sixteen hours

356
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:07,360
Speaker 3: something like that single steakout. Yeah, yeah, it's long sit. Yeah.

357
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 3: I put up a tent for a few of them.

358
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 2: Serious, Yeah, you'd make a good ice Wisconsin deer on

359
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,200
Speaker 2: their neck is standing up for six or seven pictures,

360
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,920
Speaker 2: then you go back. He's wasting a lot of talent, yeah,

361
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,560
Speaker 2: because he could be a phenomenal ice fisher. How you

362
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:23,680
Speaker 2: been here sixteen hours?

363
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 3: I've never I think I've been ice fishing once. It's

364
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 3: all I needed. Yeah, that picture here, This was like

365
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,960
Speaker 3: the three point zero setup. So I had like a

366
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 3: little kind of like high tech hobo camp. Had a

367
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,320
Speaker 3: little bit of weather protection there.

368
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got uh this is two by fours. I

369
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,440
Speaker 2: see wall of aluminum beaver lodge. I see a ridge rest,

370
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 2: a tarp, tent. Yeah, tons of.

371
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 3: Tons of wires. I did two full nights here in

372
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 3: the sleeping bag and like falling asleep and waking up

373
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,320
Speaker 3: like it's tedious. And they didn't come out once at

374
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:03,120
Speaker 3: this site. And at nine am they had another lodge

375
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 3: up creek, and they would come to this one where

376
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 3: they had their food cash at like nine am. The

377
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,399
Speaker 3: two of them, they'd chatter they'd have a conversation and

378
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,600
Speaker 3: then they'd start doing their feeding rounds coming out to

379
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 3: the cash pile. So I didn't have to do any

380
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 3: nighttime work at this one anymore. And then you go

381
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,800
Speaker 3: back one photo and now you start to see like

382
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 3: the clarity coming in like totally different situations.

383
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 2: So you're moving to You're you're picking your beaver ponds

384
00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 2: based on.

385
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,439
Speaker 3: Clear clarity only that basically, And I realized too.

386
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 2: Like I need beaver's in a clear spot and.

387
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,440
Speaker 3: The pond, Like initially was like I'm gonna start a pond.

388
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 3: It's gonna be great. They're gonna be contained. I know

389
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 3: where they are. You can see the cash, but the pond,

390
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 3: the sediment of the pond is crazy, like it never

391
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,560
Speaker 3: settles and there's all these tannins. There's no water flow.

392
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,200
Speaker 3: Basically you think of like you know, Great Lakes area,

393
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 3: those ponds are brown tea water essent. Sure.

394
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 2: And then just the nature of a beaver pond, you

395
00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 2: could have like a crystal clear trout stream and then

396
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 2: you get into the dam like like dams have, beaver

397
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 2: ponds have a very short life cycle because they set,

398
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,440
Speaker 2: they load up with sediments so fast. They're like they're

399
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 2: a sediment trap. Yeah, you know what I mean. It's

400
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 2: like a picture I never thought about. You know, a

401
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,199
Speaker 2: lot of times you get you chop a hole and

402
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 2: you like put it around your eyes and you can

403
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 2: kind of see what's going on. Yeah, but yeah, I

404
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 2: could picture now that that would be an that even

405
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,320
Speaker 2: that though you're not happy with that, one would be

406
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,000
Speaker 2: an extraordinarily clear water.

407
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 3: This was extraordinary clear water. And this was a section

408
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,560
Speaker 3: where they have I mean, the Beebles will have multiple

409
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 3: you know, they have multiple dam structures, and so a

410
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,640
Speaker 3: lot of the times the upper dams will filter out

411
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 3: a lot of sediment to begin and so you get

412
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 3: this was like the perfect mix of a stream that

413
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 3: had the right amount of flow. So if there was disturbance,

414
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 3: you know, they do kick up dust or settment whenever they.

415
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 2: Go by, and in some ways you take that as

416
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 2: a bad sign. Like if you chop a hole and

417
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 2: look down in there and you can see the runs,

418
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 2: yeah have sediment, it's a sign.

419
00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 3: That they're in there. Yeah exactly. Yeah.

420
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if it's too clear, you might be like, oh.

421
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 3: Right, what's no beaver? No activity? Yeah, So this site

422
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 3: was great and that was the picture ended up being

423
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 3: the one that we selected, and yeah, god, that's awesome. Yeah,

424
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 3: just trying to show because every stick in this picture

425
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,920
Speaker 3: beaver's placed, and the idea that they engineered the landscape

426
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,439
Speaker 3: so profoundly that they create this, as you said, refugio

427
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 3: for themselves throughout the winter where they can stay safe

428
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 3: and fat and happy and warm. I mean, the structures

429
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 3: of lodges are basically like Adobe's. They mut them, they

430
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:33,400
Speaker 3: make them incredible.

431
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 2: And as he choose the as he choose the cambium off,

432
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 2: they'll sticks sink down.

433
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,199
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, they'll and they'll come back like the

434
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 3: ones under the beaver. Now in the picture, those are

435
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,639
Speaker 3: all discarded so that you can see they've been stripped

436
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 3: and then they just sink to the bottom.

437
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 2: So this beaver right here is he did you catch

438
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 2: him drawing? Is he drawing that off the feed pile

439
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,680
Speaker 2: or is he still working on the feed.

440
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 3: Pile drawing that off?

441
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 2: So the feed pile, so he's nabbing that.

442
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 3: His piles on the left side of the frame, kind

443
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 3: of in the back there, and then the darkness that

444
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 3: this beaver's headed into is the lodge entrance.

445
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 2: So he's taking that sucker up in there to take

446
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 2: it in for a snack, and then he'll boot it

447
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,959
Speaker 2: back out yep, exactly, and come and discard it. So

448
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 2: that that big pile below him of all those sticks

449
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 2: that have had the bark stripped off, that's all stuff

450
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 2: he's kicked out of his lodge. But he's going up

451
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 2: in there because he's got to get up into a

452
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 2: thing you don't think about. Yeah, he can't eat underwater, right,

453
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 2: he's got to drag that stick up in somewhere and

454
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: find a little pocket up in a bank down or

455
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: lodge to chew it. And then he wouldn't have any

456
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,640
Speaker 2: room in there if he never moved him back out,

457
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 2: So then he's got to clean it out and make

458
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: a little just like a little uh, I guess you'd

459
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 2: call it like a midden. Yep. Yeah, he's got like

460
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 2: a little trash midden outside his front.

461
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 3: Door, yeah exactly. And that's what piles up. I mean, like,

462
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 3: the amount of maintenance they have to do in their

463
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 3: territory is pretty impressive, not just the dams, but like

464
00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 3: everything around it.

465
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 2: What's cool too, is how if you catch one on

466
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 2: the land, you know, he's very vulnerable. Yeah, I mean

467
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 2: you can pick him up by the tail. I don't

468
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: recommend it, but seen it done, done, seen it done.

469
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 2: Don't recommend it, but I mean they're vulnerable. Like anything

470
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 2: can catch a beaver, any predator if he catches them

471
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: on land and gets between the water and the beaver,

472
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: the beaver's kind of his. But you look at that

473
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 2: sucker in the water. It looks like a porpoise. I

474
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: mean it's so graceful.

475
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean they just hat a straight line

476
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 4: on there.

477
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: It's just all curves.

478
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 3: And yeah, they swim fast, and you know human olympian

479
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 3: can swim underwater, and they just do it that little

480
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 3: flick at the tail. It was amazing how fast they

481
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,400
Speaker 3: would because they're they're pretty slow, like generally under the water,

482
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: they're not unless they're scared. They're just kind of like cruising.

483
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 3: And there's no previous picture where they're kind of like

484
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 3: torpedoing where it just kind of like do a little

485
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 3: tail flick and then just just talk. It just be

486
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: perfectly buoyant in the middle of the water column.

487
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 2: Let's see cut more cruise.

488
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 3: I think these all the yeah, those beaver ones, we

489
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 3: have some.

490
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: More of a I wanted to see more of your

491
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 2: like total keepers.

492
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,400
Speaker 3: I mean I just showed two.

493
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in the end, you you you don't have

494
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 2: like twenty that you're super happy with.

495
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 3: No, I mean I have like so basically there's like

496
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 3: four frames previous to this where you're getting like the

497
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 3: beaver coming in. So I'm like taking a series of

498
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 3: images beating up in and out. But I only had

499
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 3: like I don't know, five opportunities with this really water clarity.

500
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 2: And yeah, so how many hours total if you had

501
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 2: to just take a ballpark spent how many hours you

502
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: spend on the ice.

503
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 3: On the ice, it was probably probably over one hundred.

504
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: How many times did you punch through the ice and

505
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: get wet.

506
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 3: Less than one hundred, but not too far away.

507
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's see, that's that's like a deadly we should

508
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: do a public service announcement. Yes, beavers use their runs.

509
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 2: This is kind of this is kind of trippy. Beavers

510
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: use their runs so much. You can have eighteen inches

511
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: of ice on each side of a run and the

512
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: run has no ice or an inch of ice. They

513
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: use them so much. I think they have to. Yeah,

514
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: it's to the point where a lot of times you

515
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 2: can once you learn what you're looking at. You can

516
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 2: look at a frozen beaver pond and by the discolorations

517
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: in the ice, see the runs. And also they're exhaling underwater,

518
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: they're blowing bubbles, and all those bubbles freeze into the ice.

519
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: But often I will tell like I'll be out and

520
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 2: messing around with my kids, I'll be like, watch your

521
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 2: ass in front of that lodge, because there's gonna be

522
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: bad ice. Yeah, it is a day, and it's from

523
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 2: them just whirling around there, whirling around.

524
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 3: Just keeping it stirred up, just like a little agitation

525
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 3: in the water column that keeps it like that. Yeah,

526
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 3: I mean when you.

527
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: See you were punching your boots, you fall in like.

528
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 3: Up to your elbows like those times. And with chest

529
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 3: waiters that gets sketchy too, and yeah, but yeah, most

530
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 3: of the time I didn't lose any gear, thankfully, which

531
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 3: was the thing that I was kind of the most

532
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: worried about, even stuff like melting through the ice. During

533
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 3: that warmer section like that one that I was in

534
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 3: in March. I went into April too, and it was

535
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 3: like full on runoff. Was I was doomed.

536
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: Growing up the Great Lakes, like we spent a lot

537
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: of time on the ice. I would kind of categorize

538
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: my head when someone said they fell through the ice,

539
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 2: it would be did you get your hair wet? And

540
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: there's fell through the ice one time in my life

541
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 2: where I got my hair wet. A lot of times

542
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 2: it's like knees down, waist down. One time and it

543
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: was at a beaver lodge. Did I get my hair wet?

544
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: That's a big fall through. That's because most of them

545
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 2: are like in the end, you know, it's scary for

546
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: a minute, but then it's like fairly minor.

547
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, usually like your chest up is still out of

548
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 3: the water, like okay, I'm okay, but.

549
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: Complete and total collapse. That's great, man. So what uh,

550
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: let's talk about background bit? Oh where I heard it's

551
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,959
Speaker 2: in Krin's notes. You were like trouble maker when you're

552
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: a little kid. Yeah, I was a trouble maker.

553
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 3: How bad? I got a couple of felonies when I

554
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 3: was Yeah, when I was thirteen.

555
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 2: Is there such a thing?

556
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, they can charge you and then doesn't miss No.

557
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 2: Real bad troublemaker. Yeah.

558
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 3: It was thieves, Like I was just like stealing stuff.

559
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: Were you brought up poor?

560
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 3: Not poor? No?

561
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: No, we just a rebel.

562
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 3: We were probably I don't know, lower middle class when

563
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 3: my dad built a house I grew up in. My

564
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 3: parents were kind of like back of the Landers, but

565
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 3: not hippies. Mom had her master's in teaching and dad

566
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 3: was in Vietnam combat and then came home.

567
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: And yeah, so did he have a hard time coming

568
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: home and dealing with all that he did.

569
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 3: I mean he's he's very well adjusted with it now.

570
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 3: I think in a lot of ways, it's very open

571
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 3: and talked about anything. But for a long time, no,

572
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 3: he just bottled it up. I mean, he drank a

573
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: lot coming back. It was hard for him coming back.

574
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: You wouldn't say Francisco. He's driving cabs, kind of like

575
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 3: sleeping out of the cab and just a hard time

576
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 3: coming home. And people were just like they didn't want

577
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 3: to hear about it.

578
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 2: Man, I grew up around my dad was World War

579
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: two guy, But I grew up around so many Vietnam guys.

580
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: I don't know why there's such a I don't know.

581
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: Just like, but even if I just think about in

582
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: my area around our lake, like it'd be like Vietnam goy,

583
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 2: Vietnam got Vietnam and not knowing it now, not not

584
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: or sorry, not knowing it then, but thinking back now

585
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: and be like, oh yeah, man, there was a lot

586
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: of Like I was born, I was born in seventy four, dude,

587
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: there was a lot of tension about that shit when

588
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: I was a kid that you just you know, you kid,

589
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 2: you don't conceptualize everything. I even remember my dad saying

590
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: it's different for them. My dad'd be like, we came home,

591
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: we were heroes. If you wanted when I came home,

592
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 2: if you wanted a job, the right thing to do

593
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 2: was someone else would step aside to make a job

594
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: for you when you came home from World War Two.

595
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: He says, these guys, is not that way, and it

596
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: was alive and well you know at that time.

597
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think it's still it's still like a

598
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 3: palpable memory for that generation and those of us. Yeah,

599
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 3: raised by that. I mean, my dad's definitely I think

600
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 3: has pts.

601
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: What year were you born?

602
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 3: I was born in eighty three.

603
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he's like, it wasn't old, Like the war

604
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: wasn't old.

605
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I mean, and it wasn't something that

606
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 3: he didn't start talking about until he went back. Actually

607
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 3: he has like a beautiful relationship now with Vietnam, and

608
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 3: he's been back maybe like fifteen times.

609
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: Kid.

610
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 3: He has started an NGO or yeah, contribute to an

611
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: NGO and started his own branch of it to help

612
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: build homes like two thousand dollars homes for veterans in Vietnam,

613
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 3: specifically in the southern end where he was in the

614
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: Mekong Delta. Oh really, he was on those river patrol

615
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: boats like the apocalyst now boats.

616
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, my father in law was the worked on one

617
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 5: of the barges that serviced those boats, and he went

618
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 5: back like two years ago to the village where they

619
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 5: were anchored.

620
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, I went back with my dad for a

621
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: visit in two I was ten. There was a translator

622
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 3: ming that my dad worked with, who was this like

623
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: badass little dude who went on to work with the

624
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: seals after my dad left, and he was my dad

625
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: thought he was killed. He heard some story of the

626
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: Via Kong. Afterwards, I put him interm camp and then

627
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: got caught up to him afterwards in a bar or something,

628
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: and then he died. And then my dad was reading

629
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: a book and found out that he was still alive.

630
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 3: So really we went and met him, and yeah, it

631
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: was cool. The guy's great. He passed away just a

632
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 3: few years ago, and but my dad supports his family

633
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: a lot, and yeah, just a cool relationship that it

634
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: was very healing. It's been healing from my dad a

635
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: lot in that world to go back and have that relationship.

636
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: But you ran pretty wild, ran.

637
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 3: Pretty wild, and yeah, some of that 's probably like

638
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: a repercussion of maybe some of the trauma that my

639
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: dad brought home with him. He was gone a lot,

640
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 3: you know. The the impetus for what I was doing

641
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,479
Speaker 3: stealing stuff was all about like how to fit in,

642
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: like how to be cool, how to try to get friends.

643
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 3: And I just I was bigger than most kids when

644
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: I was younger, just tall, kind of fell into like

645
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: a bully roll and started to just like act out

646
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: as a way of getting attention. It was like a

647
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: negative feedback loop. And there was trouble at home. My

648
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 3: parents got divorced, you know, there was some abuse, and

649
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: I would act out in school and then like stealing

650
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 3: stuff just became like an easy progression. And my brother's older,

651
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 3: and so I kind of like would run a little

652
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: harder because I had him in front of me. And

653
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: it was literally just like a few months of realizing

654
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: you could steal stuff like people where I grew up.

655
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 3: I grew up in Roal, Vermont, and people don't lock

656
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: their car doors good. And it was like middle school

657
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 3: spring break, walking around the town near where I grew

658
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 3: up and just like stealing stuff and then started stealing

659
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: bigger things. The two felonies were I broke into a

660
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: truck and stole someone's shotgun. God at some guy's like antique.

661
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: It was like his grandfather's shotgun. Feel bad about that,

662
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: still he got it back. I treated it pretty well

663
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: for being thirteen and not knowing what I was doing.

664
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 3: And then another one was breaking entering into like a

665
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: golf course maintenance shed, like messing around stuff, and like

666
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 3: breaking entering is like an automatic automatic felony.

667
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, it feels like yeah yeah.

668
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: And so much of it was like this this idea around.

669
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: Stealing Brian harm and stuff, whatever, this.

670
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: Idea around like young men, like teenagers, we don't really

671
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 3: have like initiations anymore, like rights of passage, which is

672
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 3: a thing that seems to be kind of built into

673
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 3: the human psyche to have these stages of life that

674
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 3: we are accepted that we have to go through. And

675
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: testosterone is one of those things where like, if it's

676
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 3: not in service, it's like a big it's a big problem.

677
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: If like men aren't in service to creating and protecting

678
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: more life in communities, then it's just going to become

679
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: this dangerous thing. And I think that this was like

680
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 3: a in the absence of those initiations. I've come to

681
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 3: understand now that like men, especially boys will do rough

682
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: initiations themselves where they'll just like they'll build push the

683
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 3: boundaries because they're not given those guardrails necessarily. And so

684
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: I was thankfully my parents stepped in. My dad was

685
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: now a bound instructor for years, like an outdoor experiential

686
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 3: learning program, and was like, all right, we just got

687
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: to send run into the wild again. And I grew

688
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: up rural kid, you know, run around and we didn't

689
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 3: have grown up I didn't want to have guns around

690
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: the house. But we didn't eat meat either, and all

691
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 3: grow vegetarian. We had fished sometimes, but my parents sent

692
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: me out to Oregon to this like wilderness therapy camp.

693
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: This after you got in trouble is after I got

694
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: in trouble. We got the courts, like I had enough.

695
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: I had the four mister meters and two felonies, And

696
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 3: there's like a point system around if you, you know,

697
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 3: do a certain number of things, you can have to

698
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 3: go to jumail attention center. If you do a certain amount,

699
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: it could be the judge's discretion. And I was in

700
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 3: that judge's discretion realm God, and my parents didn't want

701
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: me to go to juvie, and so they found this camp.

702
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: It was like I was still in the court sys

703
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: judge satisfied. Was judge satisfied with that? We won't send

704
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 3: him a juvie, send him here and we'll reevalue when

705
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 3: he gets back. And so yeah, I went out when

706
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: I was thirteen. I had my fourteenth birthday under like

707
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 3: a tarp tent. Like it's kind of like a hoods

708
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 3: in the woods idea where you're stripped down of like

709
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 3: all your identifying possessions were wearing like fatigues, army surplus

710
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 3: store stuff, and you're sleeping under just like a tarp tent.

711
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: And I was the youngest kid. The rest were yeah, fifteen, sixteen,

712
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 3: eighteen year olds and a lot of like hard There

713
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: were some hard dudes, and there was co ed too.

714
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 3: There were some women too that were just from inner

715
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: city world and just like somehow found some way to

716
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: get to this camp. And it basically it was like

717
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: putting you through a series of trials. You do like

718
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: a week long physical intensive where there's fourteen of us

719
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: and we would carry like a we had two stretchers

720
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 3: of wilderness stretchers we had to carry that had like

721
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty pounds of our gear and water

722
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 3: and community supplies, and so seven of us would have

723
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 3: to carry one and the other seven would carry the other.

724
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 3: And you do I think the first day we did

725
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 3: like less than a mile in like flat prairie of

726
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: southern southeast Oregon, and then you know, kind of got

727
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 3: our stride a little bit and we could do like,

728
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 3: you know, six miles maybe in a day. And then

729
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 3: you did a week long solo.

730
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: What's the So I don't want to stay too long

731
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: at this camp here, but what do they what's the

732
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 2: repercussion if you don't move the stretcher? Like if you

733
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 2: got all these if you got all these kids that

734
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: are trying to like push against authority and you say,

735
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 2: hey move, move, go, go go, what why do they

736
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 2: why can they not say it? No?

737
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean a lot of that was part of it.

738
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 3: Like that happened the first day where people were just

739
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:36,720
Speaker 3: like we're not doing this, like this is dumb.

740
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: But then what happens when you don't.

741
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 3: Well there's like like your your food and your kind

742
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 3: of like the other group supplies are still ahead of

743
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: you as well, so like you do kind of need

744
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 3: there is a motivation there God, and then eventually the

745
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 3: other like the kind of peer pressure comes in where

746
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 3: like some of the kids are like just do it,

747
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 3: just let's just do this, pick it up, do it,

748
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: like so let's get it over with. And some kids

749
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 3: ran away and they yeah, they would basically just like

750
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: call the cops and be like, all right, this kid's

751
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: running and we all knew what the consequences were if

752
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: we ran all then you go to the next step.

753
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, and the next step up is like

754
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 3: they wanted their recommendation. I was there for a month

755
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: for kind of the main program, and then I was

756
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 3: there for an extended because I didn't they felt like

757
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 3: I didn't get the work done. I just kind of

758
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 3: like coasted through, and they recommended to go to like

759
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 3: the next step is these like private jails essentially for youth.

760
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 3: They're called lockdowns. They're all over the country and they're

761
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 3: you know, they require certain level of affluence or money

762
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 3: to be able to go to these things because it's

763
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 3: basically a boarding school, but you're start at the lowest

764
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 3: level and you work way up based on behavior to

765
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: more freedom. And there's some of these programs that like

766
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 3: if you graduate from them, you can go to any

767
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 3: college in the US because it means that you've run

768
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 3: the gauntlet and you're like a very formed young person,

769
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 3: a teenager. So yeah, so I I was one of

770
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 3: the best things for me was just going to this and.

771
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 2: That fixed that fixed it.

772
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I didn't no more failing, went to

773
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 3: No More felonies. Yeah, and I went to like a

774
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: it was a reform school essentially, like a second chance

775
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 3: school in Northern Vermont. Afterwards, and like skip eighth grade

776
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: went there. There's one other kid in my freshman class

777
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 3: and my best friend there at the time. He had

778
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 3: stolen cars. He grew up kind inner city and he

779
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 3: was still in cars while we were there, and so

780
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: I had all these opportunities. There were kids doing heroin

781
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 3: in their rooms. It was stuff that I hadn't been

782
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 3: exposed to, and I yeah, that change of being in

783
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 3: the wild. Essentially, it was like realizing that I had

784
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 3: no freedom. I was sent to this place and I

785
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 3: was in trouble all the time, and all I wanted

786
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 3: was freedom. I was like a super rowdy kid, didn't

787
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 3: want to be indoors, didn't sit still, and so it

788
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: was like, yeah, just realizing that I had to conform

789
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: in some ways or at least like work within it

790
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 3: versus like just being held against my will, which is

791
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 3: how it was a lot of times. So yeah, that did.

792
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: That absolutely fixed me.

793
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 2: At what point you decide you're going to study biology?

794
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:00,919
Speaker 3: That was.

795
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

796
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: I went to college and decided I started out wildlife management.

797
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 3: I switched actually graduated a business degree in like a

798
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 3: minor and environmental conservation, and then went into wildlife biology

799
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 3: after that.

800
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: So what was your first gig in biology?

801
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 3: First gig was doing a spotted owl surveys in Yosemite

802
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: National Park. So there was a fire ecology study. Basically

803
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 3: it was like how well the owls do in areas

804
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 3: of burned versus unburned areas? Showed basically that there wasn't

805
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 3: much of a change that the owls or fire adapted.

806
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: But the actual work was amazing. I mean I grew

807
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 3: up in Vermont, didn't have experience really in like the West.

808
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 3: My dad brought me out to maybe a couple of

809
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: weeks I had in the Bear twos and then win Rivers,

810
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 3: which was amazing. So I knew, I knew what wildness

811
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 3: and like the idea of an intact ecosystem and old

812
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 3: growth forests and grizzlies and these places where wildness doesn't

813
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 3: exist in New England in that way, and so being

814
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 3: in Yosemite is like a it's a dream for that

815
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: you have giants to is you have huge, unbelievable landscapes,

816
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 3: and we were we would catch owls and ban them

817
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 3: and monitor them throughout the throughout the summer and basically

818
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 3: decide how many chicks they had. And that was kind

819
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 3: of like the scope of the work. And so it

820
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 3: would be out camping back back in for ten days

821
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: on four days off.

822
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: And were you into were you getting into photography at

823
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 2: that point?

824
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: That was when I bought a camera. Yeah. I bought

825
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 3: like a used like a film camera on eBay, like

826
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 3: a couple hundred bucks for everything, and had the idea

827
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 3: that I would be interested in photography. I took a

828
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 3: black and white class when I was in high school,

829
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 3: but didn't really take to it. And it was mainly

830
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 3: a vehicle to like photograph the wildlife and the landscapes

831
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 3: that I was like photographed the beauty like I would

832
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 3: if there was like a telephone pole or like a

833
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: person or a car, I'd be like, there's no picture

834
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,479
Speaker 3: Like that was that was like I was super strict

835
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 3: about it.

836
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: You didn't want any photos touched by man. No.

837
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 3: I just thought, Yeah, I got just enamored with with

838
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 3: these like the idea, and I think we all experienced it,

839
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 3: this idea of like being in a ecosystem. It's almost

840
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 3: like being around people that have a regulated nervous system,

841
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 3: like we have these you know, elders, I think basically

842
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 3: people who are like you can't flap them, like they're

843
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 3: just like solid. I think about, like, I don't know

844
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 3: any of these old timers you've been around, who've seen

845
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 3: the world and have been through hardships and are I

846
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 3: think of I mean some of these religious figures or

847
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 3: like elders that I've spent time with around Indian communities

848
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 3: around here where they're just they speak wisdom and that's

849
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 3: their role in life. And I think that people are

850
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: drawn to that, you know, you just like when you're

851
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: around that kind of a human that kind of a

852
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: nervous system, you're just you're at ease, you're curious, you

853
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 3: want to learn from them. And that's how I feel

854
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 3: around like ecosystems that are that are intact, that haven't

855
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: been changed. When I say intact, hasn't been changed by

856
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: like the modern expansion of yah capitalism and machines and

857
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 3: cutting and this idea, you know, these things where they've

858
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 3: existed in some sort of relationship for tens of thousands

859
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 3: of years, and that was what I wanted a photograph

860
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: that's where I wanted to be and spend time in Yosemite.

861
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: Was that that first introduction to that.

862
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 2: So what was the work you did with chimps?

863
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 3: Chimps? Yeah, there's picture we could pull up kind of

864
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 3: towards the end, but it's a canopy photo of chimps

865
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 3: in a in trees in Uganda.

866
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 2: So I had a radu in one lie because there's

867
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 2: a picture of some chimps outside of the house.

868
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the lie?

869
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 2: Because the man made Oh, well that was early.

870
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, early I was still experimenting. Yeah,

871
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,839
Speaker 3: I mean it showed you my high tech hobo camp. Yeah. Oh.

872
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,240
Speaker 3: My relationship to photography has changed a lot.

873
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: Around what is that?

874
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 3: That is a picture of chimps up in a canopy?

875
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 2: So what country were in here?

876
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: This is Uganda. So twenty eleven I had an opportunity

877
00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: to work as a field researcher for Kibali Chimpanzee Project

878
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 3: and they wanted me to use photography as the tool

879
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 3: of photo video to basically create imagery around behaviors and

880
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 3: so capturing from behaviors to create a catalog to better

881
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 3: understand chimp behavior.

882
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: And so we're looking here at a picture. We're kind

883
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 2: of up in the canopy over I can't tell if

884
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: we're in rainforest, but over a heavy forest. We're upping

885
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 2: the canopy and it's like a tree of very convoluted

886
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 2: crotches and limbs. And if you kind of look throughout

887
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: the tree, you're looking at not quite a dozen, but

888
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 2: a lot of chimps scattered around. What are they doing

889
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: up there? Grabbing something to eat?

890
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 3: Yeah? This is a cool tree. Is a big fig tree.

891
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 3: We're on the equator. It's temperate, but it's rainforest at

892
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 3: about a little over four thousand feet so it's a

893
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: beautiful one of the most productive forests in the world.

894
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: There's huge volcanic activity around here, and the soil is

895
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 3: unbelievably fertile.

896
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 2: And this tree, this fig tree, well, now that I'm looking,

897
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 2: I see it's just that.

898
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 4: Isn't that crazy?

899
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 3: This is a called Ficus capensus And for the listeners,

900
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: a lot of fig trees and fruiting trees. They'll grow

901
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 3: like kind of apple trees oranges, where the fruits are

902
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 3: at the end of the canopy, the extension of the

903
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 3: crown where the leaves are. This fig tree, the lea

904
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 3: figs grow in bunches like grapes like, and they're huge.

905
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 3: And so this tree would fruit for maybe three weeks

906
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: once or twice a year, and it would just be

907
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 3: mecca for this group of chimps. And this was part

908
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 3: of what I was asked to do, was climb the

909
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 3: trees and photograph them from the chimps with tree climbing gear.

910
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 3: Tree climbing gear. Yea, I had that pictures set not

911
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 3: in this deck, but it I was there, yeah physically there. Yeah,

912
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: So that was all. Yeah, so these chimps, well, that's

913
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 3: an incredible picture there. Yeah, what's that dude got in

914
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 3: his hand? This picture is of a group of female

915
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 3: chimps in the process of tearing apart the remains of

916
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 3: a call up his monkey God. So this is stepping

917
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 3: into some of the cool similarities that we share with

918
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 3: with chimps. Chimps are territorial social apes, just like we are.

919
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: We are territorial social apes, and we hunt and it's cultural,

920
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 3: so you know, we are. I like to think of

921
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 3: every human as born as a hunter, and it's just

922
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 3: a matter of how their nature is nurtured. Do we

923
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 3: get nurtured into hunting or not? And chimps are the

924
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 3: same way. So certain groups of chimps hunt a lot

925
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 3: and certain groups don't. This community that I was with,

926
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 3: they're habituated. They've been studied for thirty years, so I

927
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 3: could follow them. Your question earlier about them being easeful

928
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 3: in the canopy is because they're studied and most of

929
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 3: the chimps have been around humans pretty much their whole life.

930
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: So is what they're holding on to there that's a

931
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 2: dead monkey.

932
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 3: That's a dead monkey, and the part.

933
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: Of him that looks all gnawed on. Yeah, what's that part.

934
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 3: That's the part of the vertebrae poking through So it's

935
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: been broken.

936
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 2: Well, so you happen to just catch it where you

937
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: can't see where he's ripped apart.

938
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is this went on for maybe thirty minutes.

939
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 3: I saw the initial hunt they kill. It's it's super coordinated,

940
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 3: really interesting. So they'll be they will go hunting like

941
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 3: they will like me and Randall, you and Randall head.

942
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 3: Now I've heard you speak to it too, Like when

943
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 3: you're in the natural world, you like to speak quietly.

944
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 3: You like to move like we move, You move differently

945
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: when you're hunting. The chimps will do that too, so

946
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,720
Speaker 3: you'll suddenly realize that, like, oh, they're in hunting mode.

947
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 3: And they do that either to go hunt monkeys or

948
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 3: they do that when they go border patrolling to the

949
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 3: edge of their territory where they could bump into another community.

950
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 2: Border patrol quiet.

951
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 3: They border patrol quiet. Yeah, And they do stuff where

952
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 3: they you know, they knuckle walk and they walk on

953
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 3: the back pads of their feet and they'll be walking

954
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 3: and you'll see them do like the like pause where

955
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 3: like one foots up, one hands up where they're like, yeah,

956
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 3: were they listening, and the other chimps know like, oh,

957
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 3: I gotta listen. Yeah. It's just like a pointer where

958
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 3: they're trying to just basically like key into something and

959
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 3: pay attention and listen.

960
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: And so when they go, let's take the border patrol thing, Yeah,

961
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: it is a certain time a day. What's the cadence

962
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: to it?

963
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 3: It's not so the community that I was with they

964
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: I'd only been border patrolling with them a few times,

965
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 3: and one of the times was they were going to

966
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 3: their to their border, and this border was the border

967
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 3: with like the human world. It's the edge of their

968
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 3: National Park range where they live, this community of chimps

969
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 3: national park on three sides. There's a next picture here

970
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: that does show like the actual border, and we don't

971
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 3: have to talk to the bottom picture where we can

972
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 3: speak to the top picture there. So you see just

973
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 3: a very hard line between the So I'm with this

974
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 3: group of chimps and they're going out on this So.

975
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: What we're looking at is like a big block of

976
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 2: forest with a very hard line where it goes into

977
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: open cut.

978
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 4: Looks like you're flying over the Midwest.

979
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, looking at where the woodlot butts up to the hayfield. Yeah.

980
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 3: I have actually a picture of this that I just

981
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 3: made weeks ago in Wisconsin. That's like the same idea,

982
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: but it's the Monominee Indian reservation and agriculture next time

983
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: of it. This idea of these lines between like the

984
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 3: wild world and quote human dominated world. So they're going

985
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 3: to patrol that, they're going to the edge of that,

986
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: and they're going to the edge of that to look

987
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: for crops. They're going to crop rate. But it's the

988
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 3: same behavior where they don't want to be seen. They

989
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 3: know they're doing something kind of naughty God, and they

990
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 3: don't want to get seen by people. And so we're

991
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 3: going out. It's three males that I'm with. They were

992
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 3: all named It was Johnny, Big Brown and Stout. Stout

993
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 3: was like in his sixties. He was like this legendary

994
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 3: old in his sixties. Chimp's gonna live to be the

995
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 3: sixties in the wild. They can live to the eighties

996
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 3: in captivity. And so they're out moving. Johnny's up front

997
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 3: and they just run a trail and it's just me,

998
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 3: the only human with them, and they veer into the

999
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 3: thick brush and I'm confused why they're doing that, and

1000
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 3: I my job is to follow them to see what

1001
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 3: they're up to. So I'm on my hands and he's

1002
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 3: crawling in trying to get close to them and see

1003
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: what they're doing. I get up to them. The three

1004
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 3: of them are just sitting next to each other, just

1005
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 3: like just chilling. They're not doing anything, which is confusing.

1006
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 3: Like it's mid morning, and I sit with them. A

1007
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 3: couple minutes go by, and then I hear human voices.

1008
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: How close can you sit with them?

1009
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 3: Met you? What do you wear a little further, just

1010
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 3: like crappy clothes. I got out of market in town

1011
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 3: because they're gonna get torn up by vines and jungle,

1012
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: so I got pants and just like a long sleeve

1013
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 3: shirt and a backpack just like food and water.

1014
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 4: For that, they've like accepted you as yeah, I mean

1015
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 4: the presence in their.

1016
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, they've accepted me because they've been habituated by researchers

1017
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 3: for the thirty years prior.

1018
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 2: They ignore you or there they acknowledge you.

1019
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the interesting thing about this situation where

1020
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 3: I've only been there for like a month, and so

1021
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 3: they didn't really know me, but I came with people

1022
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 3: that they know, and they recognize faces better than we do.

1023
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 3: Like chimp facial recognition is it's better than our essentially,

1024
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 3: but you know, they that's because again territorial social animals,

1025
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 3: we need to be able to recognize very quickly friend

1026
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 3: or foe, and chims do that instantly too, and so

1027
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 3: they recognize human faces. And so they why I was cool,

1028
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 3: just because I came with the other guys who were cool,

1029
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 3: and so I'm with them, and I realized that they're

1030
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 3: hiding from these people. And now I'm also hiding from

1031
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 3: these people, not intentionally, but these chimps are essentially like, Okay,

1032
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 3: you're cool, but these guys we don't know. We don't

1033
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 3: know who these people are. And so I'm in the

1034
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 3: bushes and.

1035
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: They had heard them, they heard them before I did,

1036
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 2: and they're just waiting their more key out.

1037
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 3: There's waiting it out. And so these guys come into view.

1038
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 3: They have no idea where they're They passed by completely

1039
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 3: unaware the whole time, and I'm just sitting there next

1040
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 3: to the chimps.

1041
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 2: Do the chimps hold tight when they're hiding.

1042
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 3: Yep, they hold tight. They just watched they knew what

1043
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: they were doing.

1044
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: Yep, not turning their heads real fast or no.

1045
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 3: No, And they're chill about it, like they they know

1046
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 3: they can get up a tree and move if they

1047
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: needed to. God, oh yeah, that's a good point. But

1048
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 3: it was very much like they're on.

1049
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: It doesn't feel life or death to them.

1050
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 3: They they just rather go unnoticed. They just didn't want

1051
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 3: to like they want to carry on their day and

1052
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 3: not get scolded for potentially going the crop rating is

1053
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 3: what seemed like they were doing, so that that border

1054
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 3: patrol mentality, that was kind of what they were up to.

1055
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: And then they got to the edge of the floor

1056
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 3: forest looked out across mainly there's a tea plantation in

1057
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:04,439
Speaker 3: this photo that you can see, which is a big,

1058
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 3: kind of lighter green patch of cash crop that they use.

1059
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 3: And they walked along that border for maybe a quarter mile,

1060
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 3: realizing that it's not a food for them, and they

1061
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 3: went back into the forest.

1062
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 2: If you got in a fight war them, he's gonna

1063
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:16,919
Speaker 2: beat your ass.

1064
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 3: M oh Man, Yeah, I mean chimps. Roughly it's like

1065
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: five times our strength. Their bone density is roughly like

1066
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 3: twice as dense. Their skin is much tougher, so cool.

1067
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 3: In fact, we're the only apes that float.

1068
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 2: They'll sink.

1069
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 3: The rest of the apes flow sink, and so that

1070
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 3: tells you a lot about like density strength, muscle, fiber density,

1071
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 3: like all this. We traded kind of that robust ability

1072
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 3: to climb trees and be super burly for locomotion and

1073
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 3: so like one of these chimps people watched him. I

1074
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 3: wasn't there for it. He fell eighty feet to the

1075
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 3: deck out of a tree and like ran off into

1076
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 3: the woods and then came back a couple of days

1077
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 3: later and was like like a little limp or something,

1078
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 3: but was all right. Yeah, they would mess you up.

1079
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 3: There's there's stories I read about of like I don't

1080
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 3: on the twenties and gonna have these like weird like

1081
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 3: traveling shows side show things that would go to like

1082
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 3: county fairs and things, and they'd be like the pin

1083
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: the Chimp game. Oh yeah, and they have a chimp

1084
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 3: where they're like I think that they took they trim

1085
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 3: the clawsway down or like yeah, basically file them way

1086
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 3: off and then take the canines out.

1087
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: And then you got and they mix it up with him.

1088
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there'd be a dude I think they

1089
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 3: probably must. They probably have to take his all of

1090
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 3: his teeth out, because chimps their move is they they

1091
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 3: do they just take they glove you, they take your

1092
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 3: fingers off, and for men, they rip off your balls.

1093
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've seen footage of the uh, just let that

1094
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 5: one slide. I've seen footage of like a border patrol

1095
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 5: where they encounter another group of chimps and they rip

1096
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 5: they rip the males genitals off and they basically rip

1097
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 5: them limb from lim yeap, and it's like it's like

1098
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 5: something it's like a monster out of a movie. Like

1099
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 5: you think about the strength that would require to just

1100
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 5: pull the limb off of another animal of your same south,

1101
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 5: to pull the sack off a guy that.

1102
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 2: I mean, that would help us like you know, breaking

1103
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 2: down deer and stuff in the field.

1104
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 3: Like chip strength.

1105
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 2: So let's talk about when they set out to go hunt.

1106
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 2: They there's a there's a there's a there's a hunt

1107
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: leader I'm assuming, and he strikes off he knows where

1108
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: he's going.

1109
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it they will. So the group that I was with,

1110
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 3: they didn't hunt that much, maybe like once a month.

1111
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 3: There's and that's all based on like it's culturally based

1112
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 3: it's based, so it's a learned behavior that's passed down.

1113
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 3: It's not something that like all chimp groups don't necessarily

1114
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 3: hunt just because they can. And then it's around like energy,

1115
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 3: So how much fruit are they getting outside of their diet,

1116
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 3: because makes a lot of energy to hunt for the

1117
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,439
Speaker 3: meat takes a lot of like physical energy to move

1118
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 3: and to catch the monkeys that are fast. And so

1119
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 3: there's another community south of the one that I was

1120
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 3: spent most of my time in called in Gogo and

1121
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 3: it's this famous community. There's a documentary called Chimp Empire

1122
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 3: Fantastic on Netflix. It focuses on that site. These researchers

1123
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 3: have spent forty years studying that. And to your question

1124
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 3: around like hunt Leader, there was these like couple guys,

1125
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 3: a couple of chimps who are They just love to hunt.

1126
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 3: They like to go border but they like to hunt

1127
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 3: monkeys or chimps. That was like their deal. They didn't

1128
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 3: really care much about socializing in the hierarchy of other chimps.

1129
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 3: They were just like, when we get together, we're going

1130
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 3: to do some stuff. And they that community was the

1131
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,320
Speaker 3: biggest known chimp community.

1132
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: It was like and it could have been just driven

1133
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 2: by the personality of a couple of the animals.

1134
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 3: Personality a couple of animals built like abundance too. So

1135
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 3: there's a lot of monkeys in their home range. It's worthwhile,

1136
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 3: so it's worthwhile, and there's opportunity, and there's opportunity to learn,

1137
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 3: and so they they do these like coordinated hunts where yeah,

1138
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 3: you got the leader. They head out, they're going, they

1139
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 3: start to look up. They're trying to like listen, and

1140
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 3: the monkeys know, and so they'll they'll often get quiet,

1141
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 3: the monkeys will, but then they'll be they'll send up

1142
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 3: kind of these like beaters, let's call them. They're like

1143
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 3: little smaller chimps. Maybe they'll go up, younger chimps that

1144
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 3: still know what to do, and they'll kind of try

1145
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 3: to flush them. Some of the big males that go

1146
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 3: up too.

1147
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: So they hear they hear or see another monkey aet

1148
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 2: working in a tree yep. And not the big dudes,

1149
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 2: but some other dudes.

1150
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 3: Sometimes the big dudes will go up and they would.

1151
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: Like, how would do you have any idea how they

1152
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,879
Speaker 2: how to be conveyed? Like, hey, you go up there?

1153
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's just I think it's just instinctual.

1154
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 3: I think it's like I think it's lost on us,

1155
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 3: and I think that there's I think it's like in

1156
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 3: those moments where when you're working in group, like there

1157
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: is some of that intuition that comes through where you're like, oh,

1158
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 3: this is I'm going to take this lead on this

1159
00:53:58,239 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 3: situation here.

1160
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 2: So you're never able to detect a decision. You wouldn't

1161
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 2: know what to look for.

1162
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:07,959
Speaker 3: Decisions get made. I mean they look to each other,

1163
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 3: you know, it's kind of like like they gaze fall,

1164
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 3: they look to each other, they look up. If one's

1165
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 3: looking up, they'll look too. Like think of like dogs

1166
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 3: that look to you really quickly to make a decision.

1167
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 3: That happens. I've seen it in all social mammals where

1168
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 3: it's like they look quickly to the more experienced ones

1169
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 3: and they make a decision. In trouble with wolves, seen

1170
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 3: it with chimps with gorillas, And in this situation, you know,

1171
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 3: it gets pretty crazy quick where you have chimps going

1172
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 3: up the trees. You have monkeys screaming and running and

1173
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 3: through the trees that break neck speed, and they often

1174
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 3: try to get to like the ends of the branch

1175
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 3: that are thinner you have you have chimps that are

1176
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 3: breaking and lunging. I mean it's like these guys are

1177
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,479
Speaker 3: chimps are unbelievable athletes of course, and they can jump

1178
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 3: and fly through the trees in a way that is

1179
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 3: just kind of terrifying to watch.

1180
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 2: And sometimes those little monkeys would know get out where

1181
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 2: there's they'll try on something that they can support.

1182
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 3: But the chimps will even just jump jump and like

1183
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 3: jump these big gaps. And a lot of times I

1184
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 3: saw where the chimps would grab a monkey and then

1185
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 3: chuck them down and then there'd be other chimps below,

1186
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 3: and then it's like then they would they would deal

1187
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 3: with them then, and really, yeah, so they would like

1188
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 3: because the monkeys are formidable, you know, like they have

1189
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 3: pretty big teeth of males, and they'll defend females as

1190
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 3: well the male yep, throw them down. Yep. Yeah, I

1191
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: love this so much.

1192
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 2: The primate guy, big ape guy guy, Oh yeah, never

1193
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 2: told me that it can't be that big ape guy.

1194
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 3: Well, it just doesn't come up with you.

1195
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: Listen, if you were a big ape guy. I'd heard

1196
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: about it.

1197
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 3: Phil, I I can support Phil.

1198
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: Had dinner with Phil, Had dinner with hit Listen. Here's

1199
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: what I know.

1200
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 3: You're lying.

1201
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 2: I heard you guys had lunch, yes so I come

1202
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 2: to Phil yesterday. Uh huh, I said, Phil, what'd you

1203
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 2: guys talk about lunch? Guess what he said wasn't apes? Said,

1204
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 2: you guys talked about the TV program we did about

1205
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 2: chairs the chair company.

1206
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 3: Just check it out.

1207
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 2: So apes didn't come up during yesterday's lunch, Steve.

1208
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 3: But they have come up multiple I can show you.

1209
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 4: I can show you tons of ape images on my phone.

1210
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 5: Big granitang guy, Big gorilla guy, big chimp guy, give

1211
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 5: me not so much?

1212
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 2: Monkeys rint you were? I don't know if i'd heard that.

1213
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 4: I've got pictures. They're buying glass of course, but real

1214
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,439
Speaker 4: big ape guy. Yeah, no, I love this guy, Ape guy,

1215
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 4: steak guy.

1216
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 5: One of my dreams, Guy, one of my dreams is

1217
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 5: to go watch apes in the wild. One of my

1218
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 5: wildest dreams. You're sitting next to the right guys.

1219
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 4: I know, I know that's what I'm saying. I'm I'm

1220
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 4: all fired up about this. I love it. Okay, amazing

1221
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 4: Chimp Vmpire, Chimp crazy.

1222
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, you see so good.

1223
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 2: You've got a shirt with a big monkey on it.

1224
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 2: Rantal or a big.

1225
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 4: Monkeys have tails. Sorry, I have several sits like.

1226
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 2: Entry level ape information.

1227
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have several shirts.

1228
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 5: I have one with a big male orangutan, I have

1229
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 5: one with a juvenile orangutan, and then I have another

1230
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 5: one that's a gorilla.

1231
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,320
Speaker 4: But it's more cartoonish. It's less photorealistic than my rangutan shirts.

1232
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 2: Sound like an ape, Yeah, sounds like he's the biggest

1233
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 2: state sale guy.

1234
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 3: Okay, renaissance man. Some people say.

1235
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 2: Dogs the state sales and apes.

1236
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 4: Life is meant to be enjoyed.

1237
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 5: Why shy away from your childish and you know, impulses

1238
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 5: and attractions.

1239
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 4: I think apes are fascinating.

1240
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 2: I want to get to white wolves and muskox's. Let's

1241
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 2: talk them about the chimps when they catch it. Well,

1242
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 2: here's another question I got about this. Is it partially

1243
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 2: competition the desire for them to kill the monkeys, Like

1244
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 2: you know how wolves they run into coyot. If they

1245
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 2: can get them, they're going to get them, because why

1246
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 2: have him running around, you know, like, why have another

1247
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 2: guy out there killing stuff?

1248
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 3: I think it's I think it's taste, Like I think

1249
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 3: it is both like the taste for meat and also

1250
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 3: they go for like the intestines and the undigested plant matter,

1251
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 3: like kind of like neon green plant matter.

1252
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 2: So they kind of relish it.

1253
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 3: I think they Yeah, I think that they seek it out.

1254
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 3: I think it is like a preference thing.

1255
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: I think, now, how to what degree do they do

1256
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: they eat it?

1257
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 3: Because like the competition thing, just to button that up.

1258
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 3: I think it's like there's so much food, Like equatorial

1259
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 3: jungle monkeys eat leaves and also fruits, but it's like

1260
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 3: chimps can dominate the fruiting tree all day long. God,

1261
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 3: and like that tree that I was in in the

1262
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 3: previous picture, almost no monkeys came to it. Like a

1263
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 3: few they.

1264
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: Want it, they get it, they get it.

1265
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, And I think it's kind of like maybe

1266
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 3: you can think of it as like grizzly bears around

1267
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 3: here versus brown bears up in coastal Alaska, where it's

1268
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 3: like they don't fight too much about territory. There's so

1269
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 3: much abundance. I think it was so I think the

1270
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 3: hunting that to do is mostly around preference for meat.

1271
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 3: And I mean it is obviously a great source of

1272
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 3: nutrients and protein and fats, and so the breakdown of

1273
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 3: like the animal you're asking, like what they do.

1274
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 2: So they'll really just bone.

1275
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 3: No, they'll they'll kind of be scraps, like hide scraps.

1276
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 3: That that female monkey that was in the picture, she

1277
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 3: was pretty well cleaned up. And so this is the

1278
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 3: female chimps that got this. Afterwards, and the males they

1279
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 3: go for the choice meets the organs, they'll go for

1280
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 3: the intestines like I mentioned, lungs, liver, brain, to they'll

1281
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 3: crack open the skull.

1282
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 2: How did they get into that school? They just they

1283
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 2: can bite their way into it.

1284
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, So like that's the cool thing about chimps,

1285
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 3: like human evolution. I don't know. There's a book called

1286
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 3: Catching Fire. Richard Rangan, who's the man that I was

1287
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 3: doing this research for. He was at Harvard for his career.

1288
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 3: He studied energy and goodall. He has a great book

1289
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 3: called Catching Fire that is about like how cooking made

1290
00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 3: us that work, yeah, and that the softness of our

1291
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 3: food now allows us to we gave up all this

1292
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 3: bite force basically. So like chimps, a lot of predators,

1293
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,439
Speaker 3: you know, have like sagital crest that you know, ridge

1294
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 3: on the top of their skull that muscles attached to

1295
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 3: so they can have a massive bite force. Chimps have that.

1296
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 3: A lot of apes have that. We don't. Our jaw

1297
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 3: muscles go up just kind of like around our temple

1298
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 3: if you just like clench your jaw, you can just

1299
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 3: feel it abovey temple. Chimps john amost to go up

1300
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 3: top so they can just like, yeah, they can mau

1301
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 3: a skull if they need to go and chewing for

1302
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 3: you know, six hours a day or something like that.

1303
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 3: And so they will pull out organs and you know,

1304
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 3: monkeys are alive for a lot of it. Not a

1305
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 3: lot of it, but like the beginning to be a

1306
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 3: couple of minutes in and this scene was. I photographed

1307
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 3: a bunch of images leading up to this, but this

1308
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 3: is the one that kind of shows a lot about

1309
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 3: the behavior and the intensity of it.

1310
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 2: Now that they use that image because you can't see

1311
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 2: that he's all ripped up.

1312
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 3: No, this was in like a wild Lifetography the year

1313
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 3: competition that it won one of the commended awards a

1314
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 3: few years ago.

1315
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 4: This is a surreal image and.

1316
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 3: No, I think it's like the other images are kind

1317
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 3: of it's a group of chimps sitting around. There's a

1318
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 3: monkey in the middle, and it's like a little more

1319
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 3: like quieter of a scene. This one has some of

1320
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 3: that energy. There's a motion, there's obviously like hands touching

1321
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 3: the monkey hands in a way. That female on the

1322
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 3: right is obviously warning and having a conversation with the

1323
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 3: chimp on the other side there. So I think that

1324
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 3: this image to me, just brings a lot of the

1325
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 3: energy to the scene in a way that some of

1326
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 3: the other images didn't necessarily.

1327
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 4: The canines on that oh yeah, the chimps.

1328
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1329
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:42,439
Speaker 2: So is that that monkey's tail sticking out?

1330
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's flapping down almost like it's just like it's

1331
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 3: sighing it together, and they tore it apart after this,

1332
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 3: like it was in two pieces pretty quickly.

1333
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 5: Is the bottom right like guts or a prolapsed anus?

1334
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1335
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 3: On the female yeah, and the she's in a swelling state,

1336
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 3: so she's like an estuous. I think it's like a

1337
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 3: little it's not not part of that perfect, not part

1338
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 3: of that. No, No, that's just they get a visual sign.

1339
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 3: A lot of apes get a visual sign and primates

1340
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 3: in general of when females are in estrous.

1341
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 2: Did you ever hear that argument? This is a good one.

1342
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 3: Man.

1343
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 2: Did you ever hear the argument that one of the

1344
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 2: things that leads to human monogamy and permanent occupation between

1345
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 2: a breeding male and female human is that there's no

1346
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:39,920
Speaker 2: outward display. There's no outward display, so you have to

1347
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 2: always be around interesting. You can't time a male can't

1348
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 2: time is comings and goings like you got to stick around,

1349
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 2: be there, present. There's no outward display. Other and other

1350
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 2: males can't wouldn't look and know they can't look at

1351
01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 2: a human female and know that she's an estress. Does

1352
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 2: it make you uncomfortably talked about like a beast? No? Okay, good,

1353
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 2: those things don't bother me, you know me.

1354
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 4: Like a beast.

1355
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 3: That's a good book, Sex at Dawn that just analyzes

1356
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 3: like the human sexual relationship.

1357
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 2: From like why that's a favorite Rick. We talked about

1358
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 2: Rick Smith earlier. Remember one day we were talking about

1359
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 2: all this and Rick Smith said human, he was he

1360
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 2: was talking about humans. Rick Alay likes talking about humans

1361
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 2: like he's describing a wild animal. And he said, we're

1362
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 2: monogamous mostly, we're a monogamous species mostly. Yeah, we strive

1363
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 2: toward it. There's a strong pull toward it. Yeah, you know, yeah,

1364
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 2: I think with chimps. I mean it's like they're not

1365
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 2: at all.

1366
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 3: I mean most not monogamous. No, most apes aren't, and

1367
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 3: most primates aren't, but they will do they'll do these

1368
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 3: things called like concertships where they're like male hiring fe

1369
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 3: male not even always hiring, but he'll try to like

1370
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 3: build a relationship with a female and then when she's

1371
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 3: at her peak cycle esteris, they'll like move out and

1372
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 3: go kind of like hide for a couple of weeks, huh,

1373
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 3: and just be gone from the rest of the group.

1374
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 3: And then the rest of the males kind of lose

1375
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 3: their mind and try to find them. But most of

1376
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 3: the times you do, yeah, yep, they'll go on patrol.

1377
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 2: And why do they want to find.

1378
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 3: Him because they want to breathe, they want to read her. Yeah,

1379
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 3: I mean the females, they want to be with every

1380
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 3: male possible, like a.

1381
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 2: Oh home, I got mixed up. I thought you said

1382
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 2: the male takes off.

1383
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 3: Yes, he'll take off with the female.

1384
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, and head out throwing me off. He splits

1385
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 2: and leaves the female.

1386
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 3: No, No, he'll he'll convince her coercor either by her

1387
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 3: will or sometimes not necessarily, to like go off and

1388
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 3: be just with him for how far off a mile

1389
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 3: or something like that, like Jim Homemane is not that big.

1390
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 3: But that's that's rare. Most of the time, it's like, yeah,

1391
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 3: it's the top males, but they'll share. It's not like

1392
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 3: the male will dominated the reading.

1393
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 2: So they don't have a lot of certainty about parentage.

1394
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 3: They have no known paternity. Okay, yeah, yeah.

1395
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 2: This so this picture, which is stunning. You did not

1396
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 2: take this as a professional photographer. You took this as

1397
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 2: a researcher.

1398
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:24,000
Speaker 3: Yes, correct.

1399
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 2: And then when you finished this, did you say, I'm

1400
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 2: not a researcher, I'm now a photographer.

1401
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 3: No, I I I mean I always had aspiration to

1402
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 3: be a photographer.

1403
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 2: You did, Okay, yeah, so you at this time you

1404
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 2: recognized photography as a thing.

1405
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did. I want it, and I didn't know

1406
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 3: I didn't know what my like, I didn't know how

1407
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 3: to tell stories like I would just go for like

1408
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 3: one off pictures. You know. I got obsessed with obsessed

1409
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 3: with photograph and waterfowl and build like a floating blind

1410
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 3: and like get at their level and just photograph all

1411
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 3: kinds of cool waterfowl around Montana. But didn't ever do

1412
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 3: anything with those images and with this after this project,

1413
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 3: the research that I was working for Richard Rangham, he

1414
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 3: knew a photographer named Tim Layman who was also a

1415
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 3: researcher turned photographer. He also did canopy work. He worked

1416
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 3: for National Geographic and sent Tim some of these pictures

1417
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 3: and Tim was like, yeah, you should show these National Geographic.

1418
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 3: Here's the name of the editor, Kathy Moran. Here's an email,

1419
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 3: here's like two sentences attached to pictures, and then a

1420
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 3: gallery linked to maybe like thirty images. And then wait,

1421
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 3: so that was yeah, that was like twenty eleven. And

1422
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 3: so when I spent the year living in Uganda photographing

1423
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 3: the chimps for research, and then there was a couple

1424
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 3: of years in between. I worked for like a production

1425
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 3: company out of the Midwest with a guy named Jeff

1426
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 3: Simpson who's like a he was like a white tail

1427
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 3: hunter for a long time, like a Sitka athlete whatever

1428
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 3: whatever they call them, and.

1429
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 2: You took pictures of deer.

1430
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 3: I did like such like sponsored content videos with like

1431
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:57,920
Speaker 3: Corey Jacobson and like Jim Old Junior and Jonathan Hart

1432
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 3: who was one of the co founders of Sitka, and

1433
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 3: so just go and film. It was like big game archery,

1434
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 3: hunts god, and that was my first like actual paid

1435
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 3: kind of like film wildlife job. It was both to

1436
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 3: learn huntings. I didn't grow up with it and I

1437
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:12,400
Speaker 3: was curious, and then it was also to kind of

1438
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 3: hone my chops with So that was after this, after this, Yeah,

1439
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 3: they had to seem pretty like pretty tame the people.

1440
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 2: No, I mean just the whole get up after coming

1441
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 2: out of Uganda a year and Uganda, yeah, chasing shimps.

1442
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was hard to come home in a lot

1443
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 3: of ways. Like the life there was pretty it was

1444
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 3: pretty amazing. I mean I lived in a research camp.

1445
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 3: You hear elephants at night. Then you would just put

1446
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 3: on your backpack and go out for the day and

1447
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 3: like follow chimps and see new things every day. I'm

1448
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 3: super into birds, and it's just like a magical place

1449
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 3: for birds and reptiles, amphibians, you know, like see these

1450
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 3: cool snakes. And it was amazing. Yeah, I loved it.

1451
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the the Arctic stuff, Phil, you jump

1452
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 2: us to the Arctic stuff. Yeah, running word is that

1453
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 2: at the beginning of.

1454
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 3: The end here, Yeah, towards the end, we could do

1455
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,000
Speaker 3: maybe that like silhouetted wolfbox.

1456
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 2: Oh scene, So where are we at here? What's going on?

1457
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 2: Like where are we at in your career? And where

1458
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 2: are we at and on the earth?

1459
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 4: I mean, first of all, visually, we could be in

1460
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 4: the in the Paleolithic.

1461
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:18,840
Speaker 2: Because that could be a mammoth. Yeah, the way that

1462
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 2: horn sticking out, it could be a mammoth.

1463
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 4: I mean it's just striking im.

1464
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 5: It's like this could be anywhere across thousands of years

1465
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 5: of time.

1466
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:32,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're looking at is three canine figures, silhouetted. There's

1467
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 2: heavy cloud cover that's black, the earth is black. Sandwich

1468
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:41,599
Speaker 2: between the black of the cloud cover and the black

1469
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 2: of the earth is a narrow band occupied by three

1470
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:51,440
Speaker 2: black canine figures and a very wooly tusky horny looking.

1471
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:53,679
Speaker 3: Uh not that kind.

1472
01:08:55,040 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 2: Horned shape, nondescript shape of hair and horn. That was

1473
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 2: some great descriptive narration there. I think the audio only

1474
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:06,679
Speaker 2: listeners will be please.

1475
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, they might be getting the better end of the deal.

1476
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 2: I made it sound better.

1477
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 3: So we are. We're at eighty degrees north. We are

1478
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 3: on the furthest northern land mass in Canada. It's called Elosmere.

1479
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 3: Island and this photos from twenty eighteen, So this is, yeah,

1480
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 3: a couple of years into my career. I think I

1481
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 3: officially started working for National Geographic in twenty fourteen on

1482
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:39,320
Speaker 3: the Yellowstone Project. And this place, as Randall mentioned, it

1483
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:42,000
Speaker 3: is it is like stuck in time, like you can

1484
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:45,679
Speaker 3: go there and it's the closest feeling that I've ever

1485
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 3: had to like being on a place of scene, landscape,

1486
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 3: place that hasn't changed very much at all since the

1487
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:57,520
Speaker 3: glacier is receded. And the draw to this place, and

1488
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 3: it was covered National Geographic in the late eighties by

1489
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 3: photographer Jim Brandenberg and researcher David Meach And so cover

1490
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 3: image of National Geographic is a like a white wolf

1491
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,439
Speaker 3: kind of jumping between two ice floes that was in

1492
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 3: the eighties if you remember that one, and there are a

1493
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 3: couple other articles on it. And the draw of this

1494
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 3: place is that it is stepping back into that relationship

1495
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 3: where wolves aren't scared of people. And the allowance for

1496
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 3: that is basically like the same principle that I there

1497
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 3: habituated not necessarily because they're habituated there is they do

1498
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 3: see human settlement. There's like a weather station nearby that

1499
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 3: they can go visit if they decide to and like

1500
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 3: peon stuff, and it's kind of just like a recreational

1501
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:39,599
Speaker 3: outing for the wolves to go there. But it's mostly

1502
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:45,440
Speaker 3: kind of the My understanding of the wolf world from

1503
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,800
Speaker 3: time here and reading is is like this is how

1504
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 3: wolves were even around here, Like they were curious. I

1505
01:10:52,360 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 3: mean Lewis and Clark journals and Autumn journals that Dan

1506
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 3: Flores talked about it and his podcast.

1507
01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 2: He Died for You, Louis Clark the killed one with

1508
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:00,040
Speaker 2: a stick.

1509
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, Clark Bay and edited one. They would just be

1510
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 3: like laying on the sandbars when they're going up the

1511
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 3: river and like, bitch, be curious. They'd be around camp

1512
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 3: all the time and be curious. And here it's that

1513
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:12,559
Speaker 3: same deal where they were just like come up, they'll

1514
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 3: sniff your boots. They want to steal stuff. That's like

1515
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 3: their main really, that's their main deal is they want

1516
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,960
Speaker 3: to play keep away with you, like straight up, they

1517
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 3: like come in hot, they want to steal something. If

1518
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 3: there's anything on the ground that they can pick up

1519
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 3: it's gone, they're.

1520
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 2: Just curious what it is, if it's edible, whatever.

1521
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 3: Mostly like they picked up a camera, like one of

1522
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 3: the first meetings, so not even something smells good now,

1523
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 3: it smells like me, Like one of the first meetings

1524
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 3: was for me with this pack. I call them the

1525
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 3: Polygon Pack because of these cool polygon tundra formations that

1526
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 3: are that far north and they're den was close to

1527
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 3: that and has a camera on the ground. The wolves

1528
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:49,639
Speaker 3: they do the surrounding thing, which is what freaks people out,

1529
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 3: and they're just catching scent. They're just being curious. So

1530
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 3: they're just like there's three wolves just satelliting me at

1531
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 3: like twenty feet and I'm photographing them. And I'd been

1532
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:03,479
Speaker 3: there before and kind of knew a little bit about

1533
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 3: what was up with the wolves and had an understanding

1534
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 3: of it. And this one female darts in and grabs

1535
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 3: one of my other cameras. It's like a big, big

1536
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 3: bodied camera, it's like a ten thousand dollars thing and

1537
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 3: grabs it. How just grab the handle with her teeth

1538
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,760
Speaker 3: like the with the grip and just goes so it's

1539
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 3: just like a little rubber kind of handles the cannon.

1540
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,600
Speaker 2: One kind of sneak attack like in and out, just darts.

1541
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 3: In quick and it's and gone, And I find myself

1542
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 3: foolishly like running after it, like as if I'm gonna

1543
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 3: catch wolf, and I got big boots on, and it's like

1544
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:33,560
Speaker 3: on the tundra, it's all hummocky, and and then the

1545
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 3: other wolves start kind of running with me because they're like, oh,

1546
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 3: this is like, this is it. We're playing the game.

1547
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 3: And I realized quickly we've all played keep Away with

1548
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 3: dogs probably or with kids at some point, and realize

1549
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 3: it's only fun while you're chasing. And so I stop,

1550
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 3: do the kind of like walk away, look over the shoulder,

1551
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 3: and she starts following me. I let her get maybe

1552
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:54,840
Speaker 3: like five feet away, and then I like turn around,

1553
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 3: jump and clap and yell and she startles and drops

1554
01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 3: the camera and come back. Then you understand what that

1555
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:01,599
Speaker 3: relationship is.

1556
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, this place is so you don't need to

1557
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:05,560
Speaker 2: go look for him because they'll come find you.

1558
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:07,799
Speaker 3: They'll come find Yeah. Yeah, you basically like set camp

1559
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:09,720
Speaker 3: there and they'll come check you out.

1560
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1561
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:12,719
Speaker 2: You don't place a bait for him.

1562
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 3: There's no bait. There's no lure.

1563
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 2: I mean as part of the work. You don't like

1564
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be that you'd place a bait.

1565
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,320
Speaker 3: No, And there's no need, you know, it's like this

1566
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:23,679
Speaker 3: basically the wolves. It's kind of like the chimp world

1567
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 3: where you're like, I can follow them we when I'm

1568
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:29,480
Speaker 3: up there. So I've been up there for like productions.

1569
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 3: This was during that series Kingdom of the White Wolf

1570
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,719
Speaker 3: that you mentioned early on film from that geo also

1571
01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 3: an assignment from the magazine in that same time, and

1572
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 3: you're you're bringing up a ton of stuff. It's expedition style.

1573
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 3: It's like four wheelers. So you're following the wolves. So

1574
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 3: once you start down the road of like I want

1575
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:48,800
Speaker 3: to be in a place where I can have a

1576
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 3: camera and be in front of wolves at close proximity

1577
01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:55,640
Speaker 3: every day for three months, then you then behind that,

1578
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 3: once you've made that decision, then behind that comes like

1579
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 3: ten thousand pounds of stuff. I see of food. I'm

1580
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 3: up there with a couple of people, we have a

1581
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:05,599
Speaker 3: base camp, you have five pounds of fuel, you have

1582
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:10,839
Speaker 3: four wheelers. It's daylight all summer until like August thirtieth,

1583
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 3: then you get the first little dip of sunset, and

1584
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:17,720
Speaker 3: so you're just you're doing sometimes twenty thirty forty hour

1585
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 3: days and you're just following the wolves.

1586
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 2: Following them hunting, setting up camp or always coming back

1587
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 2: to base camp.

1588
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:24,800
Speaker 3: So the first time went up there was with a

1589
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 3: team that they had a base camp all the time

1590
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,800
Speaker 3: and these little dinky like two fifty ATVs, and I

1591
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 3: just saw that there was this amazing opportunity where like

1592
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 3: you bring up bigger ATVs five hundreds or seven hundreds, and

1593
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:39,200
Speaker 3: you camp off your ATVs for extented period of time

1594
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 3: and then you can follow the wolves like.

1595
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 2: Have to do big round trips.

1596
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:44,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I have do big round trips, and like

1597
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 3: they go hunting and they can do like sixty miles

1598
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:47,720
Speaker 3: over the course of two days.

1599
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:48,799
Speaker 2: You're gonna miss stuff.

1600
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 3: That's what I wanted. I want to I mean, I

1601
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 3: want to see all of their life. You don't want

1602
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 3: to miss anything. But the hunting is like, that's the

1603
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 3: behavior that made wolves essentially what they are is they

1604
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 3: had to solve that problem of how do we as

1605
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 3: a smaller predator take down bigger things. We have to

1606
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:07,639
Speaker 3: do it together. We have to defend territory from other wolves,

1607
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:08,759
Speaker 3: and we have to hunt together.

1608
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:15,760
Speaker 2: How many wolves are on Elsmere in how many muskogs?

1609
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 3: There was an estimate maybe fifteen years ago or So

1610
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:23,679
Speaker 3: that was two hundred Arctic wolves for the entire Canadian

1611
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 3: Arctic for the entire Arctic period, which I think is.

1612
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,879
Speaker 2: Low two hundred white phase wolves.

1613
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they're all through none of it. They're in greenland.

1614
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 3: This is not this is a Yellowstone wolf. But yeah,

1615
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 3: there you get a view of.

1616
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, look at that place.

1617
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:46,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a cool landscape. This is a this is

1618
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:47,200
Speaker 3: a story.

1619
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:49,040
Speaker 2: So here we're like, we're just looking at an Arctic

1620
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:52,479
Speaker 2: landscape and there's one wolf in the foreground and another

1621
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 2: half dozens scooting along. Kind of dirty white. It almost

1622
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 2: looks like blood on got blood on his foot.

1623
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, its kind of breaks territory. Does remind me of

1624
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:04,640
Speaker 3: some of that bad lands. You know, it's very well eroded.

1625
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:06,559
Speaker 2: What an incredible picture.

1626
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:13,599
Speaker 3: He's wet, he's gone through, yeah, a little creek earlier,

1627
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 3: but he's got a little bit on him. He's got

1628
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:17,600
Speaker 3: a little blood from a hare, Arctic hare that he

1629
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,439
Speaker 3: had hunted earlier. They coordinated try to hunt this big.

1630
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 3: The hairs up there will group in like groups of

1631
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 3: one hundred, like pure white hairs. Pretty cool to see

1632
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 3: on the landscape. But yeah, this scene was one where

1633
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:33,760
Speaker 3: you know, I was up there with teams for multiple years,

1634
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 3: film for Planet or three, a couple other productions over

1635
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:38,679
Speaker 3: the years, and then was up there with a research

1636
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:41,200
Speaker 3: team that was researching we'll get into this, but this

1637
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 3: disease that's affecting muscos and big die offs in the

1638
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:47,800
Speaker 3: north climate change related. And I went up and spent

1639
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 3: two weeks just by myself with the wolves and no

1640
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:53,720
Speaker 3: ATV is just on foot and set up a little

1641
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:58,840
Speaker 3: spike camp and wasn't producing anything. Was just up there

1642
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 3: to walk around with them as much as I could,

1643
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 3: which didn't think of me very much, but ended up

1644
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 3: being every day it's been with them. They had their

1645
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 3: pups nearby the rendezvous site, and there were fourteen adults

1646
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 3: and five pups, and there was this one kind of

1647
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 3: midnight I got woken up light was getting good, woken

1648
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:15,320
Speaker 3: up by some fox kits, and I see the wolves

1649
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:17,559
Speaker 3: are starting to get ready. They were a mile down

1650
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 3: and they're starting to get ready to kind of go

1651
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 3: out to go hunt. And I saw some Muskox herds

1652
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:23,599
Speaker 3: in the distance, and so I went down to the wolves,

1653
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 3: and then I went straight to the muskos and was

1654
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,240
Speaker 3: trying to like run between and fill the gap and

1655
01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:31,519
Speaker 3: get there before the wolves did. And this wolf I've

1656
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:33,560
Speaker 3: known for years called him Gray Mane. He's got the

1657
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 3: little gray coat. This is when he's a yearling. And

1658
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 3: I'm running ahead of them, and gray Maine's leading. He

1659
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 3: was kind of the alpha at this time. And I

1660
01:17:43,400 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 3: look behind me. He's common and the other wolves are coming

1661
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 3: behind him. And I realized that this one day is

1662
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 3: that Gray Mane and he's running next to me. We're

1663
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:54,639
Speaker 3: both running towards Muskox. And it was this very quick

1664
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:57,720
Speaker 3: realization of like, oh, this is what we've done for

1665
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:01,760
Speaker 3: a long time. This is how this would have started domestication.

1666
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 3: You'd have wolves that were curious, unafraid of humans. You'd

1667
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:06,639
Speaker 3: be out hunting the same exact animals and you'd bump

1668
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:08,879
Speaker 3: into them like this, and you build a relationship. Probably

1669
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 3: and the wolves realized quickly that, oh, these guys throw

1670
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:16,320
Speaker 3: projectiles because intu it still that they hunt muscos in

1671
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 3: like that. They'll use dogs, bay up, get a whole

1672
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 3: group of muscos into rosette, just create that defensive circle,

1673
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 3: and then they'll just lob projectiles in to the herd

1674
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 3: and get food. And the wolves would realize quickly that

1675
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:30,480
Speaker 3: was an amazing relationship.

1676
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 2: So well, how is how is this island? How is

1677
01:18:33,320 --> 01:18:34,560
Speaker 2: the island administered?

1678
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 3: It is a mix, so like the colonial Canadian government

1679
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:46,240
Speaker 3: controls and own some of it. There's also like Intuit

1680
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:51,680
Speaker 3: the province of nunav which is self governed.

1681
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 2: As part of Elsmere.

1682
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:55,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they like technically it's all within nune

1683
01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 3: of it, but the Canadian government still like there's a

1684
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:00,040
Speaker 3: military base in the north, there's a weather station, and

1685
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 3: there's one habitation on the southern end that's maybe like

1686
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty people called Greece. Fior Is the

1687
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:11,880
Speaker 3: furthest habitation in Canada. But they were moved through a

1688
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:15,720
Speaker 3: colonial imperialism idea of having like people being born on

1689
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:20,640
Speaker 3: all your sovereign lands or whatever they call it by colonialism.

1690
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 3: So they brought people from mainland Quebec and just like

1691
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 3: drop them off on this pretty rough part of the

1692
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:30,479
Speaker 3: island on the southern end, and basically we're like good

1693
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,760
Speaker 3: like good luck. Didn't tell them how long they were

1694
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 3: going to be there, and it's kind of like a

1695
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 3: nightmare scene. But they've survived and some people went back

1696
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:41,519
Speaker 3: home maybe years later. They were given the opportunity, but

1697
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 3: a lot of people stayed, so they were initially like

1698
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:49,559
Speaker 3: caribou mainland hunters there. Now kind of there's some caribou

1699
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 3: up there, but the caribon population subspecies of periy cariboo

1700
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:57,240
Speaker 3: is like totally tanked in the north and in Nune

1701
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:00,080
Speaker 3: of it, and muscock's in and marine mammals to what

1702
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 3: they hunt now, But those guys don't make forays up

1703
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:06,320
Speaker 3: here to hunt. There's a nine dollars bounty on wolves

1704
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:06,800
Speaker 3: and none of it.

1705
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 2: They hunt wolves down where they're at.

1706
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, got it, Yeah, got it?

1707
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 4: Oh wow.

1708
01:20:12,280 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. So now we're looking at a very distressed young muskos,

1709
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:25,880
Speaker 2: his nose tipped up to the sky. He's bleeding out

1710
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:30,040
Speaker 2: of his mouth or his mouth's been mauled up, and

1711
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 2: he's got uh, i don't know, three four wolves ripping

1712
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:34,840
Speaker 2: them all, kind of tearing them up.

1713
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, these are what an image?

1714
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:41,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, feel bad for watching stuff get killed like that.

1715
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:43,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't feel good. Yeah, I mean I feel

1716
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:46,200
Speaker 3: bad for anything that doesn't die quickly.

1717
01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:54,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, even animals that I've got, they don't the wolves, Yeah.

1718
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,800
Speaker 3: Why would you? I mean it's like I've been haveing

1719
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 3: professional hunters and it takes two hours for animals to die. Yea,

1720
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 3: So it's yeah, it's it's usually twenty minutes for wolves

1721
01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:07,120
Speaker 3: from when they engage, even if it's a big adult.

1722
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:08,799
Speaker 3: Sometimes a little longer with the adults.

1723
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:14,280
Speaker 2: But you know in in uh the Wood Buffalo National Park,

1724
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 2: I think that they they did. They did the study

1725
01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:19,559
Speaker 2: is a long time ago. How long it takes them

1726
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:23,160
Speaker 2: to bring one down. It was about six hours for

1727
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:23,719
Speaker 2: a buffalo.

1728
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:24,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

1729
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 2: But it's a whole dance.

1730
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,040
Speaker 3: It's a dance, and it's a lot of like preamble,

1731
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 3: it's motion. It's not all like melee.

1732
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 2: No, not a lot of like sitting watch and seeing

1733
01:21:35,120 --> 01:21:36,800
Speaker 2: what's going. And that's how isolating.

1734
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:39,320
Speaker 3: That's how these unfold too. Okay, you could technically be

1735
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 3: hunting for I've seen six to ten hour hunts, but

1736
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:45,120
Speaker 3: they're sleeping for half of that and then just see

1737
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:49,559
Speaker 3: and watch up. They'll pressure them, disengage, pressure, disengage, and

1738
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 3: do that whole deal because they selecting who they want,

1739
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:54,960
Speaker 3: they need them to They either need to startle them

1740
01:21:55,080 --> 01:21:57,160
Speaker 3: and get them to scatter, so they'll hunt the wind

1741
01:21:57,200 --> 01:21:59,559
Speaker 3: a lot and hunt. Like one of the first times

1742
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:02,280
Speaker 3: I saw it was I with the wolves traveling I'm

1743
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,240
Speaker 3: on the four wheeler. They're heading off. They're in hunt mode,

1744
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:08,760
Speaker 3: and they suddenly I can see the landscape in front

1745
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 3: of me, but it is it's kind of like Central

1746
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 3: Montana breaks. There's little dips and swells and koolies, and

1747
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:17,880
Speaker 3: suddenly the wolves are at full tilt and I can't

1748
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:20,280
Speaker 3: see anything ahead of them. And then we get over

1749
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:23,760
Speaker 3: this little depression and then there's like a muskox in there.

1750
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:26,559
Speaker 3: They yeah, there are two balls in there. So they

1751
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:30,360
Speaker 3: were hitting speed to try to create chaos first, but

1752
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 3: the bulls are too big and nothing. They didn't.

1753
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 2: So if they pull up on those bulls, yeah, do

1754
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:40,840
Speaker 2: they see it and see what they're dealing with, like

1755
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 2: in terms of demographics so to speak, and just call

1756
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:46,439
Speaker 2: it off or do they still go kind of tests?

1757
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:47,080
Speaker 3: They test?

1758
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, they want they want to anybody injure what's going on.

1759
01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 3: They want to see them move, so like he's playing

1760
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:54,400
Speaker 3: on a bad ankle, you know, totally. Yeah, Yeah, you'll

1761
01:22:54,439 --> 01:22:57,519
Speaker 3: get up to them. They'll be like laying down. Let's

1762
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 3: say there's like a bull that's ruminating, laying down, and

1763
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:02,880
Speaker 3: they'll get them to stand up, okay, and get them.

1764
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 2: To whirl if they want to see what they want

1765
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:05,040
Speaker 2: to get them.

1766
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 3: To see, because they I mean they they catalog I mean,

1767
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 3: I'm sure they have like this landscape map and based

1768
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:13,559
Speaker 3: on prey as well, and they'll know if there's an

1769
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:17,160
Speaker 3: old bowl that's like on his last got.

1770
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:18,760
Speaker 2: It and and they like that that image we looked

1771
01:23:18,760 --> 01:23:20,200
Speaker 2: at they're on a calf.

1772
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:24,160
Speaker 3: Yep, that's their preferred Okay, that's their I mean, it's they.

1773
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:26,519
Speaker 3: So they're trying to siphon them off. They they want

1774
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:29,400
Speaker 3: the muskos and to stampede. I've never seen buffalo do

1775
01:23:29,439 --> 01:23:32,640
Speaker 3: it a little bit, you know, Kate Buffalo do it

1776
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:37,439
Speaker 3: where they actually stand their ground against lions. Buffalo a

1777
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 3: little bit with wolves here where they gather up the

1778
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:42,200
Speaker 3: group together. But the muskos in are real good at that.

1779
01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 3: I mean, that's their move is not breaking the group,

1780
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:46,519
Speaker 3: not breaking the group. If they can hold it, then

1781
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:48,639
Speaker 3: like the wolves can't do it. They basically can't do anything.

1782
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 3: And especially yeah, especially this time of year. You can

1783
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 3: see there's little bit of foliage change, a little bit

1784
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:56,799
Speaker 3: of orange on the ground. That's the Arctic willow that's changing.

1785
01:23:57,400 --> 01:23:59,600
Speaker 3: And this is the breeding season, the running season for

1786
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 3: the muscles, like August and so you'll have a herd

1787
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:07,040
Speaker 3: of let's say, you know, ten cows and calf pairs,

1788
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 3: and then you have a herd bowl with them, and

1789
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:12,639
Speaker 3: so the cow calf pairs group up in the rosette,

1790
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:14,960
Speaker 3: and then the herd bull is just he's just throwing

1791
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:17,559
Speaker 3: wolves if need be. But the wolves can't do anything,

1792
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 3: and they can't do anything against him, but they want

1793
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 3: to get them to move. They want to get the

1794
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 3: back end exposed and they can pull on a calf

1795
01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:24,760
Speaker 3: and then get to them.

1796
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:26,840
Speaker 2: When you're staking out with these guys and hanging out

1797
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:34,679
Speaker 2: with these wolves, how how how many days pass between

1798
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 2: an event like this? Between like from successful hunt to

1799
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:39,720
Speaker 2: successful hunt?

1800
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:41,080
Speaker 3: How much time goes by and you get three or

1801
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:44,320
Speaker 3: four days depending on like how big the animals did

1802
01:24:44,320 --> 01:24:46,879
Speaker 3: they take down? I mean once they killed this animal,

1803
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:53,599
Speaker 3: it was basically like hide in twelve hours with there

1804
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:56,360
Speaker 3: were six adult wolves, but then they chilled for four pups.

1805
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:58,920
Speaker 3: They'll still go on walkabouts, but yeah, they chilled. They

1806
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 3: chilled for except for like fifteen hours they chilled out,

1807
01:25:02,439 --> 01:25:04,240
Speaker 3: but then they go on, like they go walk around

1808
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:05,639
Speaker 3: for fun. They'll do border patrols too.

1809
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:10,559
Speaker 2: H m hmm. Yeah, So here we got a pop

1810
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:13,800
Speaker 2: and I'm assuming a female.

1811
01:25:14,160 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 3: That's that's Gray Maine still when he was a yearling. Yeah,

1812
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 3: just big brother.

1813
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:20,880
Speaker 5: And he's he's got his paws and his nose resting

1814
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:21,920
Speaker 5: on a hoof.

1815
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:23,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, muscock's leg.

1816
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:25,880
Speaker 4: Like the way that my dog will do to my

1817
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:26,960
Speaker 4: crocs at home.

1818
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 3: Yep, exactly. Yeah, just these scenes that and I'm there.

1819
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:32,439
Speaker 2: I'm just like, how close are you there?

1820
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:34,600
Speaker 3: Closer to than med to you like half of the

1821
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:36,439
Speaker 3: stream media. There's like a wide angle lens.

1822
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 2: I don't care.

1823
01:25:38,600 --> 01:25:40,240
Speaker 3: Spend a month with them. I mean the beginn took

1824
01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 3: It takes time, like the beginning. I was interesting that

1825
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:45,800
Speaker 3: the pups were actually the most scared of the group,

1826
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:48,639
Speaker 3: all the six adults in this pack. During this time,

1827
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:51,080
Speaker 3: all the six adults were fine. There was the three

1828
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 3: that came up when I stole my camera. The other

1829
01:25:53,320 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 3: three adults are back with the pops. They were giving

1830
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:59,360
Speaker 3: zero sign of fear about me. But the pups were like,

1831
01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 3: we got it, this is we gotta get out of here.

1832
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 2: Would they draw the line at you touching them?

1833
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,160
Speaker 3: So I would set boundaries like I would bop them

1834
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:12,000
Speaker 3: like nose, like hey, you gotta give some space. You know,

1835
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:15,479
Speaker 3: I'd stand up and walk towards them or push them

1836
01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 3: a few times like this the previous photo here, there's

1837
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:22,680
Speaker 3: another hunt scene where this is in the dark. I

1838
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 3: had a little flash trying to light it. But they

1839
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:26,360
Speaker 3: have another calf as a separate hunt scene. Three of

1840
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 3: the wolves working this calf, and one of the wolves

1841
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:33,160
Speaker 3: I've known for a long time, Bright Eyes. I'm again

1842
01:26:33,280 --> 01:26:34,719
Speaker 3: just kind of me to you to this whole actual,

1843
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:37,719
Speaker 3: the whole thing happening, them hunting and killing, and they're

1844
01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:41,160
Speaker 3: obviously not worried. But one time in that melee, the

1845
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:44,960
Speaker 3: Musko's calf bucked, Bright Eyes, and I'm kneeling down and

1846
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:47,519
Speaker 3: she comes and she just falls on my lap. She's

1847
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:49,880
Speaker 3: just like fully in my lap and I just push

1848
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:52,200
Speaker 3: her back in. She didn't even bother look back. She

1849
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 3: just like went back in the system and started to

1850
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:54,800
Speaker 3: hunt again.

1851
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:56,839
Speaker 2: You ever grab any that meat and eat it yourself?

1852
01:26:57,880 --> 01:26:59,560
Speaker 3: This one I did. It was the only time I

1853
01:26:59,600 --> 01:27:02,240
Speaker 3: did it. Yeah, I cut off some backstrap. They were away,

1854
01:27:02,400 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 3: the wolves, the other three members and the pups were

1855
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 3: just over the hill and they were howling after they

1856
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 3: killed a muskox calf, So they were gone. I didn't

1857
01:27:11,160 --> 01:27:13,160
Speaker 3: really want to have them see me taking it. I

1858
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 3: felt like there was some like, yeah, some like betrayal

1859
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:20,160
Speaker 3: around dynamic. Yeah, but yeah it was a yeah, pretty

1860
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:24,879
Speaker 3: pretty beautiful scene to be able to have some easy meat.

1861
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:26,760
Speaker 2: Man.

1862
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:28,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, these are just incredible photos. Man.

1863
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 2: And then how much time total with the body work

1864
01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:35,160
Speaker 2: we're looking at, how much time total did you spend

1865
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:35,679
Speaker 2: in this spot.

1866
01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:41,280
Speaker 3: I've been there, like it spans ten years basically of time,

1867
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:45,200
Speaker 3: and then I've been there for like a year cumulative

1868
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:46,840
Speaker 3: like three month trips.

1869
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:51,120
Speaker 2: You know, And how often is a photographer trailing after

1870
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:51,799
Speaker 2: these wolves?

1871
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,519
Speaker 3: So now, and some of this is because of the

1872
01:27:56,640 --> 01:27:59,280
Speaker 3: work that I've done, Like there are people that are

1873
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:02,439
Speaker 3: starting to go up there and do like tours. I've

1874
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 3: been asked a bunch and don't really have any desire.

1875
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:07,599
Speaker 2: To do that, like because people want to go camp

1876
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 2: and just check it out.

1877
01:28:08,520 --> 01:28:12,200
Speaker 3: They want to photography tours get close to wolves. And

1878
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:15,920
Speaker 3: and then there's film crews that go up there. And

1879
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:18,560
Speaker 3: so then like there was a crew up there just

1880
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:22,519
Speaker 3: this past year, the big like Disney project, and so

1881
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:25,280
Speaker 3: there's yeah, there's still people that go there.

1882
01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 2: So it's kind of will get it'll get like a

1883
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:29,639
Speaker 2: little yellow stony where it's just like people hanging out

1884
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:30,439
Speaker 2: film and stuff.

1885
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:32,680
Speaker 3: It's so expensive to get there. That's the thing that

1886
01:28:33,040 --> 01:28:37,640
Speaker 3: prevents human presence is it's just like you know, it's astronomical,

1887
01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:39,439
Speaker 3: and so it just becomes a thing where people just

1888
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 3: don't got it.

1889
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:41,679
Speaker 2: Logistically tough.

1890
01:28:41,760 --> 01:28:44,240
Speaker 3: Logistically tough, Yeah, you gotta be really Yeah, it's just

1891
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:46,800
Speaker 3: a place that thankfully you can't drive to.

1892
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:50,559
Speaker 2: So if you're a professional wildlife photographer and it takes

1893
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:55,080
Speaker 2: so long to get the good images, like, walk me

1894
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:59,559
Speaker 2: through the economics? What is it? Also new? Like click

1895
01:28:59,640 --> 01:29:02,640
Speaker 2: the show and it's there's the money do you? I

1896
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:05,920
Speaker 2: mean like how like what do you how do you

1897
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:06,360
Speaker 2: get paid?

1898
01:29:07,360 --> 01:29:12,360
Speaker 3: Yeah? So pretty much all my work is either assignment based.

1899
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:15,960
Speaker 3: So that's a national geographic magazine assignment.

1900
01:29:16,160 --> 01:29:19,080
Speaker 2: But it's not a day rate. They want an image.

1901
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:21,240
Speaker 3: No, it's it's gonna be a day rate. Yeah. Yeah,

1902
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:22,880
Speaker 3: so it can be. It'll be like a budget. They'll

1903
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 3: be like all right, Like the Beaver story is like, okay,

1904
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:28,960
Speaker 3: we have like fifty thousand dollars. Here's kind of our

1905
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:33,640
Speaker 3: rough timeline. Fifty thousand dollars is like you choose.

1906
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:35,240
Speaker 2: I'm on and you give exact figures.

1907
01:29:35,280 --> 01:29:36,800
Speaker 3: You don't need to do that, Oh I don't mind

1908
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:38,920
Speaker 3: doing that, okay, and that you can just do it.

1909
01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:41,080
Speaker 2: All as one hundred dollars for all care go ahead.

1910
01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:44,400
Speaker 3: So that includes like all your expenses. I mean, that's

1911
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 3: that's stretched out over three years. It's not like a

1912
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:50,479
Speaker 3: full time job for that period of time. So it's

1913
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:53,519
Speaker 3: like a week here, a week here, day rates including that,

1914
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 3: if you have an assistant, if you have travel, if

1915
01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:57,960
Speaker 3: you have expenses, all that's including that. That's just like

1916
01:29:58,240 --> 01:30:02,680
Speaker 3: that's a fee let's say for the whole story and

1917
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:04,880
Speaker 3: then the other story. The other way I do things

1918
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:05,519
Speaker 3: is through great.

1919
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:07,640
Speaker 2: But the problem, here's what I don't get about it.

1920
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 2: If we hire a camera guy and we're going to

1921
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:15,599
Speaker 2: do something, we know there will be footage, yes, right,

1922
01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:18,880
Speaker 2: So if you're doing something that like the beaver thing,

1923
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:25,800
Speaker 2: they're they're rolling the dice, yeah, because you could come

1924
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:28,200
Speaker 2: back and say it's all mucky.

1925
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:30,360
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, got it.

1926
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:33,440
Speaker 4: That's why I won't ever get an assignment for National Geographic.

1927
01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:36,880
Speaker 2: You need a body of work, right, So you're like,

1928
01:30:37,520 --> 01:30:39,320
Speaker 2: that's what I'm saying, Like when you click the shutter,

1929
01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:41,720
Speaker 2: it's not like there's the money, Like you might make

1930
01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:44,960
Speaker 2: an arrangement where you're saying, I'm gonna spend blank days

1931
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:47,920
Speaker 2: and you're gonna get what you get and I'm gonna

1932
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:49,760
Speaker 2: try my hardest and if I don't deliver, then I

1933
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:50,960
Speaker 2: don't get work in the future.

1934
01:30:51,040 --> 01:30:53,320
Speaker 3: But that's the that's the cooker with it is it's

1935
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:55,280
Speaker 3: like you have to deliver. You have to deliver, and

1936
01:30:55,400 --> 01:30:59,160
Speaker 3: it's kind of like there's that notion of I'm a freelancer,

1937
01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:01,720
Speaker 3: I'm not an employees so it's kind of like you're

1938
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:04,439
Speaker 3: only as good as your last story kind of idea.

1939
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:08,320
Speaker 3: If you bomb multiple stories, it's like, yeah, though.

1940
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 2: You don't g Yeah, you know, you're not the guy

1941
01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 2: that gets it.

1942
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:12,479
Speaker 3: And for a while, it's like being a hunting guide.

1943
01:31:13,160 --> 01:31:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you charge X for your your heart, charge X for.

1944
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:19,560
Speaker 5: Your hunt, and whatever sort of nice or shitty accommodations

1945
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:22,160
Speaker 5: you put together for the clients comes out of that money.

1946
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:25,519
Speaker 5: And then if you don't kill you know, animals with

1947
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:27,439
Speaker 5: your clients, eventually stuff getting clients.

1948
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1949
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:30,880
Speaker 2: Do you get easy assignments?

1950
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:36,200
Speaker 3: Uh? Yeah, I mean some some ways, Like the beaver

1951
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:38,519
Speaker 3: assignment in a way was easier in the sense that

1952
01:31:38,680 --> 01:31:42,000
Speaker 3: like beavers aren't hard to find. It's not like I

1953
01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:45,880
Speaker 3: have to go someplace like Uganda and try to find

1954
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:49,240
Speaker 3: a bird or go to Lsmere it's hard to get to.

1955
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:52,120
Speaker 3: So it's kind of like there was a mix where

1956
01:31:52,160 --> 01:31:54,640
Speaker 3: it was pretty easy. Yeah, I've had like one of

1957
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 3: the easy assignments I had was it was like a

1958
01:31:57,320 --> 01:32:01,400
Speaker 3: commercial assignment for a cell phone company and Kenya Safari

1959
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:05,160
Speaker 3: Cam and they wanted a series of wildlife images of

1960
01:32:05,439 --> 01:32:09,640
Speaker 3: like a danger species in Kenya and also like a

1961
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:13,080
Speaker 3: video compilation to go with it, and so they came

1962
01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:15,519
Speaker 3: to me with it. I hired a good friend named

1963
01:32:15,520 --> 01:32:17,400
Speaker 3: Bob Poole who grew up in Kenya, was one of

1964
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:20,120
Speaker 3: the premiere wildlife cameramen in the world, does a lot

1965
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:22,640
Speaker 3: of work in East Africa. And it's basically Bob and

1966
01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:25,720
Speaker 3: I cruising around to these amazing spots in Kenya in

1967
01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:29,360
Speaker 3: this like amazing film land rover platform that he designed,

1968
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:33,320
Speaker 3: and it was awesome and there was no pressure, no pressure.

1969
01:32:33,360 --> 01:32:34,640
Speaker 3: It was just like knew we were going to get

1970
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:38,880
Speaker 3: amazing things, get to see everything that you'd be excited about.

1971
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:41,519
Speaker 3: Saw my first wild dog hanging out with Cheata, hanging

1972
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:46,719
Speaker 3: out with them with hyenas. It was like socializing with hyenas.

1973
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,240
Speaker 3: This lone female wild dog I sent At the research

1974
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:51,800
Speaker 3: They're like, we don't ever see this. That was just

1975
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:53,799
Speaker 3: a fun assignment because there's not any pressure.

1976
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:58,000
Speaker 2: And do you ever get a call where you'd say,

1977
01:32:58,280 --> 01:33:02,240
Speaker 2: I'm gonna save us both the trouble and no, because

1978
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:03,920
Speaker 2: it's just not You're not gonna be happy with it.

1979
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:05,479
Speaker 4: The sasquatch photos aren't.

1980
01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the sas squatch photos where we want a snow leopard.

1981
01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know I had one. I had one that

1982
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:16,320
Speaker 3: was I did say yes to. It was learning. It

1983
01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:19,479
Speaker 3: was like my first assignment with Audubon magazine and a

1984
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:22,880
Speaker 3: writer pitched it. And you know, writers have the luxury

1985
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 3: if they can write about things that happened one time,

1986
01:33:25,720 --> 01:33:27,840
Speaker 3: or they can write about it don't don't happen. They

1987
01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 3: can write about it. I tried to like, but they

1988
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:33,280
Speaker 3: can write about tall tales. Yeah, they can write about

1989
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:35,200
Speaker 3: like yeah, myth and all these things. So this writer

1990
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:37,680
Speaker 3: pitched the story about It's basically like a like a

1991
01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:41,880
Speaker 3: beaver keystone species story around beavers in Gradi els In area,

1992
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 3: and it hings around this guy named Billy Burton, who

1993
01:33:47,600 --> 01:33:51,200
Speaker 3: the writer thoughts swam with beavers, Like Billy told him

1994
01:33:51,200 --> 01:33:52,599
Speaker 3: a story from when he was a kid one time.

1995
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 3: This is what came out afterwards, that like he checked

1996
01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:55,680
Speaker 3: out a beaver lodge when he was a kid, just

1997
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:57,160
Speaker 3: kind of like swam up into it and like checked

1998
01:33:57,160 --> 01:33:59,599
Speaker 3: out the beaver to buddies with just you just like looked.

1999
01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:01,080
Speaker 3: I think it was like maybe one or two times

2000
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:04,760
Speaker 3: it happened when he was a kid, and Billy's an

2001
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:07,479
Speaker 3: adult and maybe relaying the story to this guy in

2002
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:08,479
Speaker 3: a social setting, and.

2003
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:11,800
Speaker 2: The writer pitches it, and so the man who swam

2004
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:12,360
Speaker 2: with beavers.

2005
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:15,439
Speaker 3: The editors like, I want opening spread double page Billy

2006
01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 3: swimming with beavers, And I was like, okay, cool, Like cool,

2007
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 3: there's a guy outside of Bozman and swims with beavers,

2008
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:24,599
Speaker 3: Like I didn't know about that, but he's got habituated beavers.

2009
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:27,840
Speaker 3: I'll go check it out. So show up. Billy showed

2010
01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:29,560
Speaker 3: me around with the writer walking around. He showed me

2011
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 3: where the beavers are and all this stuff. The writer

2012
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:33,559
Speaker 3: leaves and I'm kind of just casual. I'm like, so, Billy,

2013
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:37,000
Speaker 3: when do you swim with the beavers? Let me know

2014
01:34:37,040 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 3: what to get to my camera, and he yeah, he

2015
01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:42,040
Speaker 3: looks at me and it's just like, well, what are

2016
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:44,400
Speaker 3: you talking about? Like, we don't. I don't swim with beavers.

2017
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:46,720
Speaker 3: They're wild animals, Like they're they're scared of me, Like

2018
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:50,000
Speaker 3: what do you mean? I was like wow, the writer said,

2019
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,560
Speaker 3: he's like, oh, maybe I told him that when I

2020
01:34:51,680 --> 01:34:53,800
Speaker 3: was younger, I did a thing. So then I had

2021
01:34:53,840 --> 01:34:56,400
Speaker 3: this whole kind of afternoon of like what do I do?

2022
01:34:56,560 --> 01:34:58,639
Speaker 3: I gotta tell the editor this story is not possible.

2023
01:34:58,760 --> 01:35:02,920
Speaker 3: And Billy became a dear friend and I it just

2024
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:06,599
Speaker 3: talked to him yesterday and I actually used his late

2025
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:09,760
Speaker 3: father's bo to hunt my first archery elk this year,

2026
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 3: And so Billy's he's a good friend. Yeah, he's a

2027
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:14,360
Speaker 3: really interesting guy. He's a lot of habitat restoration and

2028
01:35:15,439 --> 01:35:18,240
Speaker 3: huge ranches around the West, and he's a very interesting guy.

2029
01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:20,679
Speaker 3: Like him a lot. But yeah, that was a funny

2030
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:23,439
Speaker 3: assignment where I had a call and actually told the editor.

2031
01:35:23,479 --> 01:35:25,760
Speaker 3: I was like that this thing isn't true at all.

2032
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:28,880
Speaker 4: That's not really on you though it wasn't on me.

2033
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:32,120
Speaker 3: No, But I took the burden of like can I'm yeah, yeah,

2034
01:35:32,400 --> 01:35:34,400
Speaker 3: can I make this a story? Can I salvage it.

2035
01:35:34,880 --> 01:35:36,880
Speaker 3: But yeah, I've had some other projects where it'll be

2036
01:35:37,000 --> 01:35:40,040
Speaker 3: like a you know, fashion something they'll want me to do.

2037
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. So for years I traveled with photographers for magazine

2038
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:48,080
Speaker 2: features as always a strange relationship we got along.

2039
01:35:48,400 --> 01:35:50,200
Speaker 3: H Yeah, Yeah, it was rather i'd be in the

2040
01:35:50,240 --> 01:35:53,280
Speaker 3: field phtographer. I did amazing three weeks with David Kwalman

2041
01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:58,360
Speaker 3: wrote the history on human chimp collision in Uganda and

2042
01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 3: he wrote the story on that and we did three

2043
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:01,840
Speaker 3: weeks in the field together. It was a dream.

2044
01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, what kind of wild stuff you got coming up?

2045
01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:07,920
Speaker 2: Like for what kind of pictures you're trying to get?

2046
01:36:07,960 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 4: Now?

2047
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:11,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've shifted a bit in kind of the relationship

2048
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:15,679
Speaker 3: of how I'm working And what does that mean. Well,

2049
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:18,720
Speaker 3: it means like I've stopped going to the Arctic in

2050
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 3: ways that I don't enjoy, like going on the kind

2051
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:25,920
Speaker 3: of the drive of you're there to do one thing

2052
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:30,320
Speaker 3: and it's to like film. And I've started to try

2053
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:33,120
Speaker 3: to understand more about like the reason I get in

2054
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:35,519
Speaker 3: this was around conservation. The reason is to try to

2055
01:36:36,080 --> 01:36:39,720
Speaker 3: educate people about wild spaces and to hopefully have them

2056
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:42,920
Speaker 3: be around for generations to come. And a lot of

2057
01:36:43,000 --> 01:36:44,360
Speaker 3: what I realize now is so much of it is

2058
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:47,599
Speaker 3: just around like human health, Like how well are humans

2059
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:50,760
Speaker 3: in an area, whether it's adjacent to national parks or

2060
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:54,280
Speaker 3: even like in a country, Like how connected are we

2061
01:36:54,680 --> 01:36:57,680
Speaker 3: as an American nation to the natural world in a

2062
01:36:57,720 --> 01:37:01,760
Speaker 3: way that allows it to sustain itself for a long time?

2063
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:04,320
Speaker 3: So what that looks like to me is like being

2064
01:37:04,479 --> 01:37:08,680
Speaker 3: more on the land with people being more around, Like yeah,

2065
01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:12,439
Speaker 3: reconnecting nature in a relational way in like a sacred way,

2066
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:16,400
Speaker 3: like what is sacred to humans now in the natural setting?

2067
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:17,800
Speaker 3: A lot of that is I think it's kind of

2068
01:37:17,880 --> 01:37:20,360
Speaker 3: lost in a way, but people are trying to rekindle it.

2069
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,479
Speaker 3: There's cool work going on by like Bill Plockingh as

2070
01:37:23,479 --> 01:37:27,200
Speaker 3: an author Martine Precto is kind of this interesting thinker

2071
01:37:27,320 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 3: around like how do we rekindle our innate relationship natural

2072
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:35,200
Speaker 3: worlds as like the human animal, like our psyches are

2073
01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:39,600
Speaker 3: totally honed for it to be to learn from Like

2074
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:42,479
Speaker 3: essentially animism. Every culture in the world came from like

2075
01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:45,599
Speaker 3: an animism relationship. I must try to explain animism my kids,

2076
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:48,840
Speaker 3: are you try to explain how do you approach it?

2077
01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:49,800
Speaker 2: What's that?

2078
01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:51,360
Speaker 3: How do you approach it Like what do you say.

2079
01:37:52,280 --> 01:37:54,720
Speaker 2: Well, we we it's hard to get there because we

2080
01:37:54,800 --> 01:37:57,719
Speaker 2: get there from a Judeo Christian understanding and then try.

2081
01:37:57,600 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 3: To walk backwards.

2082
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in there still, Like yeah, they would they

2083
01:38:04,360 --> 01:38:05,800
Speaker 2: would tell you if you ask them, does your dad

2084
01:38:06,040 --> 01:38:07,000
Speaker 2: lecture you buy animism?

2085
01:38:07,040 --> 01:38:10,720
Speaker 3: And they would say, yes, he does. That's great. I

2086
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:12,640
Speaker 3: mean I think it is, like I think that is

2087
01:38:14,960 --> 01:38:17,840
Speaker 3: like one of the pass forward for like sustaining long

2088
01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:20,360
Speaker 3: term this idea of conservation, which is kind of just

2089
01:38:20,439 --> 01:38:23,720
Speaker 3: a yeah, what people understand around saving wild places and

2090
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:24,479
Speaker 3: wild things, you.

2091
01:38:24,479 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 2: Know, a good way to get into animism. It's not

2092
01:38:26,439 --> 01:38:28,320
Speaker 2: really it's it's a roundabout way to get into it.

2093
01:38:28,360 --> 01:38:32,360
Speaker 2: But you formiar with this idea. Imagine that you imagine

2094
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:36,640
Speaker 2: the earth. You imagine the earth as an organism in

2095
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:42,280
Speaker 2: the river's arts, arteries. The atmosphere is its lungs. You

2096
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:44,960
Speaker 2: follow me, yes, and then you can kind of get

2097
01:38:45,040 --> 01:38:47,360
Speaker 2: to through that, you can get to an idea like well,

2098
01:38:47,439 --> 01:38:52,000
Speaker 2: let's say we imagine like that the mountains. The mountains alive.

2099
01:38:53,080 --> 01:38:57,000
Speaker 2: You know, it's got heat, it's alive, it's got it's

2100
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:00,280
Speaker 2: got things living on it, parasitic things live on it.

2101
01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:00,560
Speaker 2: You know.

2102
01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:03,760
Speaker 4: I mean there's all sorts of functional relationships.

2103
01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:07,880
Speaker 2: It's got things going on, makes weather, harvests the weather.

2104
01:39:08,439 --> 01:39:10,880
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, that's stuff like that. Yeah. And then and

2105
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:14,439
Speaker 3: then that that is like there's a relationship there that's

2106
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:17,519
Speaker 3: essentially always waiting for humans to step into. Like the

2107
01:39:17,560 --> 01:39:22,360
Speaker 3: book Bringing Sweetcraft speaks to that. Every indigenous land based

2108
01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:25,160
Speaker 3: community that I spent time with, that is how it works.

2109
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:28,639
Speaker 3: And oftentimes that looks like you go on to land

2110
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:35,080
Speaker 3: you fast. You do these experiences where you're actually in conversation,

2111
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:37,760
Speaker 3: you're listening, you're asking, you're speaking things things that we

2112
01:39:37,800 --> 01:39:38,640
Speaker 3: can't speak to each other.

2113
01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:38,880
Speaker 2: You know.

2114
01:39:38,920 --> 01:39:42,680
Speaker 3: We talk about modern day therapy and it's wonderful that

2115
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:45,240
Speaker 3: it's available and that people are accessing it, and it's

2116
01:39:45,240 --> 01:39:47,680
Speaker 3: a conversation that has had in time Like when my

2117
01:39:47,720 --> 01:39:51,479
Speaker 3: dad grew up, it wasn't even available. But there's also

2118
01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:54,800
Speaker 3: things that people don't speak to other people about ever,

2119
01:39:54,920 --> 01:39:56,559
Speaker 3: but you can speak to the natural world about.

2120
01:39:57,320 --> 01:40:00,240
Speaker 2: So where is the work in this for you? I mean,

2121
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:02,920
Speaker 2: this seems like this seems like retirement thing.

2122
01:40:04,080 --> 01:40:06,680
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, ultimately it's like the thing that I

2123
01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 3: am most excited about now is this idea of like

2124
01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:12,600
Speaker 3: how do you reconnect people to the human animals that

2125
01:40:12,720 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 3: we all are in like a holistic way, Like I

2126
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:18,800
Speaker 3: think the modern wellness movement is just tapping into all

2127
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:21,240
Speaker 3: these things that makes a healthy animal, like get a

2128
01:40:21,280 --> 01:40:24,400
Speaker 3: lot of sleep, eat whole foods, exercise, don't have chemicals,

2129
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 3: don't spend a lot of time sitting around, socialize. Like

2130
01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:30,720
Speaker 3: this is just like if you break down the human animals,

2131
01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:34,760
Speaker 3: those are things that feed us. Like there's the psychologist

2132
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:37,200
Speaker 3: Francis Weller who talks about that you have primary versus

2133
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:41,479
Speaker 3: secondary satisfactions related to the human psyche. Primary satisfactions are

2134
01:40:42,200 --> 01:40:49,240
Speaker 3: like storytelling, ceremony, ritual connection to food, dance, song, like

2135
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:53,880
Speaker 3: the creative expression of humans, and those feed communities and

2136
01:40:54,000 --> 01:40:55,560
Speaker 3: have for tens of thousand of years. And then you

2137
01:40:55,600 --> 01:40:59,599
Speaker 3: have secondary satisfactions, which is what a lot of modern

2138
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:04,599
Speaker 3: behavior is stuck in where it's like ambition, materialism, these

2139
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 3: things that are not rooted in like long term human

2140
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:13,240
Speaker 3: health of like communities and societies. And for me, it's

2141
01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:15,080
Speaker 3: like again like getting back to like the reason I

2142
01:41:15,120 --> 01:41:17,120
Speaker 3: got in this work was a trigenerate change some way

2143
01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:21,599
Speaker 3: towards like healthy futures for everybody, for all life essentially

2144
01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:25,280
Speaker 3: and the work in this For me, a lot of

2145
01:41:25,320 --> 01:41:27,680
Speaker 3: it is like personal, like trying to understand what that

2146
01:41:28,120 --> 01:41:30,960
Speaker 3: my relationship is the natural world, going on the land

2147
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 3: and doing doing a four day fast in a wild

2148
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:37,320
Speaker 3: place and being in one place doing essentially like a

2149
01:41:37,479 --> 01:41:41,120
Speaker 3: vigil and seeing what comes out of that. Like our

2150
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:44,360
Speaker 3: brain shifts into a different way of being. You start

2151
01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:48,439
Speaker 3: to think differently, experience differently. Sensory experience becomes differently, going

2152
01:41:48,479 --> 01:41:52,680
Speaker 3: into katosis where burning fat instead of ingesting calories, and

2153
01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:56,360
Speaker 3: then spending time with being invited into communities, going to

2154
01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:59,040
Speaker 3: Sundance for the first time last year with the crow

2155
01:42:00,640 --> 01:42:05,400
Speaker 3: being part of sweats where you're like the whole idea

2156
01:42:05,439 --> 01:42:07,439
Speaker 3: around ceremony. For me, I didn't I wasn't engaged in

2157
01:42:07,479 --> 01:42:08,720
Speaker 3: that at all. As a kid, we didn't have any

2158
01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:12,760
Speaker 3: form of organized religion or spirituality other than like being

2159
01:42:12,800 --> 01:42:15,160
Speaker 3: a naturalist, like being outside, being curious.

2160
01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:15,680
Speaker 2: Mom.

2161
01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:18,439
Speaker 3: We would do like nature journals or we would draw again.

2162
01:42:18,479 --> 01:42:20,200
Speaker 3: There was no hunting. I was curious about it. I

2163
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:23,080
Speaker 3: would I would kill things. I would borrow buy Buddy's

2164
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:25,040
Speaker 3: BB gun and shoot things. But I was like out

2165
01:42:25,080 --> 01:42:27,960
Speaker 3: of curiosity without having like an actual guidance around it.

2166
01:42:28,479 --> 01:42:30,840
Speaker 3: And then as an adult, I've always kind of thought

2167
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:33,080
Speaker 3: about like ceremony is like taboo is a bad thing,

2168
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:35,160
Speaker 3: Like the idea of like religion is this thing that's

2169
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:37,640
Speaker 3: done wrong to the world. That was kind of like

2170
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:39,599
Speaker 3: an idea. And again I don't come from an organized

2171
01:42:39,640 --> 01:42:42,879
Speaker 3: religion background, but animism is this thing that's like available

2172
01:42:42,920 --> 01:42:45,880
Speaker 3: to all humans, Like it is like a kind of

2173
01:42:45,920 --> 01:42:48,240
Speaker 3: like a human right, and I think ceremony is as well,

2174
01:42:49,080 --> 01:42:51,640
Speaker 3: And like now is this time where I'm trying to

2175
01:42:51,640 --> 01:42:54,840
Speaker 3: bring that into life in a way that with hunting

2176
01:42:54,880 --> 01:42:57,280
Speaker 3: this year, for the first time, I hunted an animal

2177
01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:00,479
Speaker 3: in a way that was new to me and saying

2178
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:03,640
Speaker 3: to him while he died, decorated him, adorned him, and

2179
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:06,880
Speaker 3: then went through a practice of yeah, in a way

2180
01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:09,880
Speaker 3: of trying to honor him in that way versus yeah,

2181
01:43:10,320 --> 01:43:12,320
Speaker 3: the last four years of learning to hunt and doing

2182
01:43:12,360 --> 01:43:16,679
Speaker 3: it just kind of however it came. And like there's

2183
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:20,320
Speaker 3: this idea around yeah. Robin rol Kimer has a quote

2184
01:43:20,320 --> 01:43:25,879
Speaker 3: around ceremonies, how we remember to remember, how we remember

2185
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:28,800
Speaker 3: the important things in life, and whether it can be anything,

2186
01:43:28,840 --> 01:43:32,760
Speaker 3: it can be these like yeah, marking graduation or a

2187
01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:34,519
Speaker 3: step into a different place. It's like, how do we

2188
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 3: spend some more time with it to make it like

2189
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:40,200
Speaker 3: an actual life changing event to our to our community

2190
01:43:40,240 --> 01:43:40,960
Speaker 3: and to ourselves.

2191
01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:46,400
Speaker 2: You know, you're still gonna take.

2192
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:49,080
Speaker 3: Pictures, Still take yeah, still taking pictures.

2193
01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:50,599
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2194
01:43:50,600 --> 01:43:52,160
Speaker 3: I mean I was just on the Monomine Reservation a

2195
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:54,640
Speaker 3: couple weeks ago, and they're doing some cool stuff with

2196
01:43:54,760 --> 01:43:57,919
Speaker 3: getting buffalo back on the land. Call it homecoming.

2197
01:43:58,960 --> 01:44:00,479
Speaker 2: So that kind of ties in the what you talking about,

2198
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:02,519
Speaker 2: though it exactly what I'm talking about, So it's you

2199
01:44:02,760 --> 01:44:04,200
Speaker 2: kind of That's when I said the work of it,

2200
01:44:04,320 --> 01:44:07,439
Speaker 2: meaning like you can photo document. Yeah, I think places

2201
01:44:07,479 --> 01:44:10,320
Speaker 2: where this is happening in interesting ways, or places where

2202
01:44:10,400 --> 01:44:14,639
Speaker 2: humans are re engaging or continuing to engage around wild

2203
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:16,560
Speaker 2: wild spaces and wildlife.

2204
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:19,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I think like these places, these like very

2205
01:44:19,200 --> 01:44:22,760
Speaker 3: far off wild places are like they hold again that

2206
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:25,439
Speaker 3: idea of like a regulated nervous system landscape, the idea

2207
01:44:25,479 --> 01:44:28,280
Speaker 3: of going back in time. It's amazing to be able

2208
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:30,800
Speaker 3: to walk around with wolves in a place that you

2209
01:44:30,880 --> 01:44:32,639
Speaker 3: don't have to worry about it, Like I I can't

2210
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:34,559
Speaker 3: do that in Yellowstone anywhere around here. I wouldn't want

2211
01:44:34,560 --> 01:44:36,599
Speaker 3: to do it. Ethically because those wolves will get hammered

2212
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:40,400
Speaker 3: during hunting season and they do around Yellowstone every year,

2213
01:44:40,439 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 3: these wolves that kind of get a little used to

2214
01:44:41,920 --> 01:44:48,320
Speaker 3: people get shot. And ultimately it's like coming back to, Yeah,

2215
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:50,320
Speaker 3: how do I use the skills that I have and

2216
01:44:50,400 --> 01:44:54,560
Speaker 3: I've created through photography and storytelling to like elevate some

2217
01:44:54,640 --> 01:44:57,120
Speaker 3: of these interesting stories. And yeah, the Monomine story is amazing.

2218
01:44:58,040 --> 01:45:01,000
Speaker 3: There's a group called Medicine Fish there. It's will nonprofit

2219
01:45:01,160 --> 01:45:06,639
Speaker 3: that uses youth work and empowerment basically like rekindling their

2220
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:11,120
Speaker 3: animism relationship to the natural world through song and ceremony

2221
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:13,800
Speaker 3: and a buffalo heard now that they have from the

2222
01:45:13,880 --> 01:45:16,519
Speaker 3: Nature Conservancy and I was there to help them film.

2223
01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:19,519
Speaker 3: They invited me on to help film that and yeah, beautiful.

2224
01:45:19,640 --> 01:45:22,160
Speaker 3: Hundreds of people show up and it's like that's what's like,

2225
01:45:22,560 --> 01:45:24,000
Speaker 3: that's it to me in a lot of ways, what's

2226
01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:27,840
Speaker 3: happening where it's like there's this feeling now in the

2227
01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:32,400
Speaker 3: modern world that I certainly get caught up in where

2228
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:36,840
Speaker 3: we're like rushing away from this past that none of

2229
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:40,400
Speaker 3: us fully understand, like we never lived what it would

2230
01:45:40,439 --> 01:45:43,879
Speaker 3: be like to you know, be on on the planes

2231
01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:46,840
Speaker 3: here inanimate relationship. You know, we can read about it.

2232
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:50,559
Speaker 3: And I brought some books for y'all that maybe you've

2233
01:45:50,640 --> 01:45:53,040
Speaker 3: heard of them or read them, but like Pretty Shield

2234
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:56,400
Speaker 3: and Ego Voice Remembers. There are these ethnographic interviews with

2235
01:45:56,600 --> 01:45:57,639
Speaker 3: elders in the nineteenths.

2236
01:45:57,680 --> 01:45:58,880
Speaker 2: We've read a lot of those, but I haven't read

2237
01:45:58,920 --> 01:45:59,280
Speaker 2: those ones.

2238
01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:01,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're great, and it's just the stories of like

2239
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:04,960
Speaker 3: pre contact. You know, I liked in Hide Hunters how

2240
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:08,840
Speaker 3: you touched on like you painted the picture for the

2241
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:12,840
Speaker 3: listener around like what the buffalo meant to the planes people,

2242
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:15,400
Speaker 3: and so so like we're rushing away from that in

2243
01:46:15,439 --> 01:46:18,240
Speaker 3: a lot of ways as a collective, modern dominant culture.

2244
01:46:19,080 --> 01:46:22,240
Speaker 3: This idea of like that was primitive. There was you know,

2245
01:46:22,360 --> 01:46:26,679
Speaker 3: there's a negative connotation around this older ways of living,

2246
01:46:26,760 --> 01:46:29,160
Speaker 3: that it was dangerous, that it was unpredictable, that it

2247
01:46:29,280 --> 01:46:33,439
Speaker 3: was you know, unhealthy, And so then we're rushing towards

2248
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:35,840
Speaker 3: like the technological world. You know that like none of

2249
01:46:35,920 --> 01:46:38,320
Speaker 3: us know what's going to happen, but that's it.

2250
01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:43,240
Speaker 2: But in some ways that is humanity. You can't find

2251
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:46,640
Speaker 2: that many experience. You can't find that many case examples,

2252
01:46:46,760 --> 01:46:54,520
Speaker 2: case studies where people are held out advancement and rejected.

2253
01:46:54,640 --> 01:47:00,400
Speaker 2: There are some yeah, like Sentinel Island, there are some Yeah.

2254
01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:03,840
Speaker 2: Typically people accept it.

2255
01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:04,320
Speaker 3: They want it.

2256
01:47:05,720 --> 01:47:09,320
Speaker 2: It's like to go and say to go and say it.

2257
01:47:09,479 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 2: Somehow we become we've become like that. It's a shame

2258
01:47:15,360 --> 01:47:17,840
Speaker 2: that we walked away from these things when again and

2259
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:21,400
Speaker 2: again and again, cultures all around the world, you say

2260
01:47:21,479 --> 01:47:26,240
Speaker 2: to them, would you like food is like a guaranteed

2261
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:30,160
Speaker 2: food supply, yes, we would. Would you like cellular service,

2262
01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:32,599
Speaker 2: yes we would. Would you like I remember reading this thing,

2263
01:47:32,640 --> 01:47:36,120
Speaker 2: even from the seventies. I was looking at cash expenditures

2264
01:47:36,200 --> 01:47:40,560
Speaker 2: and into it communities, those white gas, white gas. So

2265
01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:45,080
Speaker 2: I think number two cash expensures, canned food. Right, it's

2266
01:47:45,120 --> 01:47:48,679
Speaker 2: just people. I don't think you can go and look.

2267
01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:52,360
Speaker 2: It's just people again and again and again want the stuff.

2268
01:47:53,240 --> 01:47:55,320
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, you can make my life easier. You

2269
01:47:55,360 --> 01:47:57,200
Speaker 2: can make it more likely that I'll live to be

2270
01:47:57,240 --> 01:47:59,760
Speaker 2: in my seventies or eighties. You can make it less

2271
01:47:59,880 --> 01:48:04,519
Speaker 2: likely that my baby will die. I'm in yeah. Always Yeah,

2272
01:48:05,120 --> 01:48:06,720
Speaker 2: it's a little bit like like I get it, and

2273
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:09,200
Speaker 2: I spend a lot of time existing, and I spent

2274
01:48:09,280 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 2: a lot of time exploring skill sets and and exploring

2275
01:48:14,200 --> 01:48:16,560
Speaker 2: things in the past. But I always remind myself that

2276
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:22,320
Speaker 2: it was a very very deliberate decision around the world

2277
01:48:22,760 --> 01:48:26,760
Speaker 2: to move away from that lifestyle. It was imposed here

2278
01:48:26,800 --> 01:48:31,200
Speaker 2: and there, but typically people wanted it. It typically wanted it,

2279
01:48:32,720 --> 01:48:35,519
Speaker 2: and they will continue to typically want it.

2280
01:48:36,479 --> 01:48:38,320
Speaker 3: I think I think a lot of times it was

2281
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:40,679
Speaker 3: it was forced. Like I don't think they were necessarily

2282
01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:41,280
Speaker 3: a choice.

2283
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:45,120
Speaker 2: Man, if we'd have to do whole the show, I'll

2284
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:46,800
Speaker 2: take you, I'll take you on on that one.

2285
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:47,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2286
01:48:47,920 --> 01:48:50,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of times there was a

2287
01:48:50,520 --> 01:48:54,680
Speaker 2: little bit of a bait and switch. But typically you

2288
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:58,320
Speaker 2: can show up on the shore and you can lay

2289
01:48:58,360 --> 01:49:02,599
Speaker 2: out the goods and initially people come.

2290
01:49:02,920 --> 01:49:05,920
Speaker 3: But but I also think what you're saying, I think

2291
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:08,160
Speaker 3: we're kind of sitting in a way, like they're interested

2292
01:49:08,200 --> 01:49:11,200
Speaker 3: in the tools. Yeah, yeah, they want to maintain the material.

2293
01:49:11,240 --> 01:49:13,360
Speaker 3: They want to Yeah, they want to maintain their their

2294
01:49:13,400 --> 01:49:16,920
Speaker 3: way of life. Perhaps well in a way, yeah, but

2295
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:18,400
Speaker 3: I think they want yeah, they want guns.

2296
01:49:18,479 --> 01:49:21,320
Speaker 2: They don't foresee they want at the beginning of they

2297
01:49:21,400 --> 01:49:22,200
Speaker 2: want metal.

2298
01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:24,519
Speaker 3: Right, I don't. I don't think that they see it initially.

2299
01:49:24,680 --> 01:49:26,080
Speaker 3: I think it is like a natural thing, like and

2300
01:49:26,200 --> 01:49:29,680
Speaker 3: we see that anything. You see like someone with a

2301
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:33,120
Speaker 3: cool system or whatever, they got some cool new tool

2302
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:35,120
Speaker 3: that they are using to do the thing that we

2303
01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:37,680
Speaker 3: also like doing. And it's like instantly, you can't forget that.

2304
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:40,519
Speaker 3: You can't know that there's a better way of doing

2305
01:49:40,560 --> 01:49:42,160
Speaker 3: it in a way or a more quote efficient way

2306
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:44,560
Speaker 3: of doing something, and forget that. I think that is

2307
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:46,960
Speaker 3: like human nature, Like we do want that. But I

2308
01:49:47,040 --> 01:49:49,000
Speaker 3: think I think I'm.

2309
01:49:48,840 --> 01:49:50,640
Speaker 2: Trying to counter what you're saying. I'm just saying this

2310
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:54,240
Speaker 2: is something I've wrestled with. Definitely, I've intellectually wrestled with

2311
01:49:54,360 --> 01:49:54,920
Speaker 2: this whole bunch.

2312
01:49:55,040 --> 01:49:56,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the tools specifically, but I think like

2313
01:49:57,080 --> 01:49:59,960
Speaker 3: the way of life, I don't necessarily think that everybody

2314
01:50:00,160 --> 01:50:01,880
Speaker 3: wants like if they.

2315
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:04,040
Speaker 2: There's probably a baked there's a baked in. Let's say

2316
01:50:04,080 --> 01:50:07,280
Speaker 2: there was a baked in nostalgia. But later you're like, man,

2317
01:50:07,360 --> 01:50:08,040
Speaker 2: should we have done that?

2318
01:50:08,400 --> 01:50:11,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're also not necessarily talking about material culture. You're

2319
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:16,439
Speaker 5: talking about in that transformation or transition, you're talking about

2320
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:23,160
Speaker 5: losing intangible, intangible things. And it's not that you like

2321
01:50:23,560 --> 01:50:27,559
Speaker 5: are working to go back the other way along this arc.

2322
01:50:27,680 --> 01:50:31,040
Speaker 5: But look over your shoulder and remember some of the

2323
01:50:31,360 --> 01:50:37,639
Speaker 5: core like human experiences and that that that have been

2324
01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:38,719
Speaker 5: lost in some ways.

2325
01:50:38,920 --> 01:50:40,840
Speaker 2: But even if even if the product we're getting so

2326
01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:44,759
Speaker 2: far out, even if the product is religion, people initially

2327
01:50:44,800 --> 01:50:48,800
Speaker 2: are curious. They're initially curious just it happens again and

2328
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:51,000
Speaker 2: again and again all around the world. They're initially curious.

2329
01:50:51,439 --> 01:50:56,920
Speaker 2: Everybody was animist, virtually everyone was animistic. They became they

2330
01:50:57,000 --> 01:51:02,080
Speaker 2: became monotheistic. We'll say this for the next show. I

2331
01:51:02,160 --> 01:51:05,439
Speaker 2: got one last question for you. It's a business question.

2332
01:51:06,280 --> 01:51:08,720
Speaker 2: If we look at this is this is going to

2333
01:51:08,760 --> 01:51:10,719
Speaker 2: sound insulting, but it comes from me being a writer.

2334
01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:15,479
Speaker 2: Like oftentimes the way that it moves is is like

2335
01:51:15,640 --> 01:51:18,759
Speaker 2: it moves a that there's sort of like a writer

2336
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:22,440
Speaker 2: is going to do a thing, let's find a photographer

2337
01:51:24,120 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 2: to go along with it. Do you get to Are

2338
01:51:26,720 --> 01:51:30,400
Speaker 2: you at a point in your career where the where

2339
01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:32,519
Speaker 2: you're the dog and the writer's the tail.

2340
01:51:34,439 --> 01:51:35,040
Speaker 3: Do you follow me?

2341
01:51:35,160 --> 01:51:37,519
Speaker 2: Can you do you have do you wield that power

2342
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:41,320
Speaker 2: as sort of like a premier wildlife photographer where you

2343
01:51:41,360 --> 01:51:43,559
Speaker 2: could say, there's an image I'd like to get, it's

2344
01:51:43,640 --> 01:51:44,960
Speaker 2: so good you ought to find a writer.

2345
01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:48,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that happens. I don't claim to be

2346
01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:53,000
Speaker 3: to be anything of that, like powis prowess or level.

2347
01:51:54,200 --> 01:51:57,559
Speaker 3: But I think that like the not geo stories, all

2348
01:51:58,360 --> 01:52:00,280
Speaker 3: pitch something in an they'll sign a writer. I'll come

2349
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:00,679
Speaker 3: with the writer.

2350
01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:05,120
Speaker 2: So what will be that the image leads.

2351
01:52:05,120 --> 01:52:07,120
Speaker 3: I mean National Graphic is I mean, it's definitely an

2352
01:52:07,120 --> 01:52:09,840
Speaker 3: image magazine. I say, it's like they like, you hook

2353
01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:12,360
Speaker 3: people with the cover. If they don't say on the

2354
01:52:12,360 --> 01:52:14,920
Speaker 3: newstands anymore, but if you hook people to cover, they'll

2355
01:52:15,040 --> 01:52:16,720
Speaker 3: they'll go through it. This is what they you know,

2356
01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:18,599
Speaker 3: that's what they say. People do with it, like look

2357
01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:20,360
Speaker 3: at the pictures and the picture interesting, then they'll read

2358
01:52:20,360 --> 01:52:23,320
Speaker 3: the article more. That's kind of how they speak to Yeah.

2359
01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:25,800
Speaker 2: It's like, uh, yeah, the photographer is the dog, the

2360
01:52:25,880 --> 01:52:28,559
Speaker 2: writer's the tale, because I would always imagine the writer

2361
01:52:28,680 --> 01:52:30,600
Speaker 2: as the dog and the photographer is the tale, and

2362
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:31,200
Speaker 2: you need both.

2363
01:52:31,240 --> 01:52:32,880
Speaker 3: I mean it's like you need both.

2364
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:34,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. I don't think it should

2365
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:36,120
Speaker 2: be the way it was when I was doing that.

2366
01:52:36,200 --> 01:52:38,920
Speaker 2: I think that in some ways, like looking at the

2367
01:52:39,360 --> 01:52:41,680
Speaker 2: wolf stuff, if someone said to me, hey, you can

2368
01:52:41,720 --> 01:52:43,800
Speaker 2: look at these pictures or you can read what this

2369
01:52:43,880 --> 01:52:45,840
Speaker 2: guy wrote, I'm like, I'll go with the pictures please,

2370
01:52:46,560 --> 01:52:47,240
Speaker 2: like on that ship.

2371
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:49,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you could take an eighth grade essay and

2372
01:52:49,479 --> 01:52:51,479
Speaker 5: attach it to that and somebody be like, the best

2373
01:52:51,520 --> 01:52:52,160
Speaker 5: thing I ever read.

2374
01:52:53,200 --> 01:52:54,639
Speaker 4: It's a transformative piece.

2375
01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. If I was an editor and someone came and said, look, man,

2376
01:52:59,360 --> 01:53:01,639
Speaker 2: I don't get all these photos of all this crazy stuff,

2377
01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:03,560
Speaker 2: I'd be like, we should probably find a rider to

2378
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:03,760
Speaker 2: go with.

2379
01:53:05,760 --> 01:53:07,320
Speaker 3: I mean, definitely has changed a lot, I think in

2380
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:10,599
Speaker 3: that way. But yeah, I mean I we would need both.

2381
01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:12,960
Speaker 3: I mean need the dog in the tail, you need

2382
01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:15,040
Speaker 3: it all. No, but who gets to be the tail?

2383
01:53:15,920 --> 01:53:17,760
Speaker 2: And it gets to be the dog? Who gets to

2384
01:53:17,840 --> 01:53:18,360
Speaker 2: be the tail?

2385
01:53:18,479 --> 01:53:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, so I likes.

2386
01:53:19,880 --> 01:53:23,000
Speaker 2: I got one last question. If okay, I think of

2387
01:53:23,080 --> 01:53:26,160
Speaker 2: the whole world, the depths, of the oceans, whatever, the

2388
01:53:26,200 --> 01:53:30,519
Speaker 2: whole world. If you could get a picture of one

2389
01:53:30,720 --> 01:53:34,760
Speaker 2: thing that you know to be a thing that happens right,

2390
01:53:35,360 --> 01:53:39,559
Speaker 2: like a sperm whale grabbing a giant squid, Like one

2391
01:53:39,680 --> 01:53:41,840
Speaker 2: thing that you know occurs, what would you get the

2392
01:53:41,840 --> 01:53:42,360
Speaker 2: picture next?

2393
01:53:42,400 --> 01:53:43,320
Speaker 4: Beaver under the ice?

2394
01:53:43,880 --> 01:53:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2395
01:53:48,439 --> 01:53:50,200
Speaker 3: What comes to mind. I was yels In just a

2396
01:53:50,200 --> 01:53:55,559
Speaker 3: couple weeks ago and read through the scene like found

2397
01:53:55,560 --> 01:54:00,320
Speaker 3: a big bowl carcass of elk with some research out

2398
01:54:00,320 --> 01:54:02,160
Speaker 3: they knew was there, the tom Mountain had been feeding

2399
01:54:02,200 --> 01:54:06,360
Speaker 3: on it, collared one they knew was there, and I

2400
01:54:06,479 --> 01:54:11,680
Speaker 3: ended up like tracing back the whole scene. And I

2401
01:54:11,720 --> 01:54:13,840
Speaker 3: would love just to get a cool, like a good

2402
01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:18,320
Speaker 3: image of like a mountain lion ambush, like coming in

2403
01:54:18,439 --> 01:54:21,519
Speaker 3: from the tree, jumping on the back of a bull

2404
01:54:21,920 --> 01:54:23,679
Speaker 3: elk and going through that world.

2405
01:54:23,880 --> 01:54:25,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a tough one.

2406
01:54:25,600 --> 01:54:27,920
Speaker 3: That'd be a tough one to get, but it's not impossible.

2407
01:54:28,800 --> 01:54:31,920
Speaker 3: This morning, the first hunge in this deck, we didn't

2408
01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:34,040
Speaker 3: get to it yet. I saw a family of cougars

2409
01:54:34,080 --> 01:54:36,880
Speaker 3: this morning on a walk are six miles from here.

2410
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:39,720
Speaker 3: They just killed a mule deer.

2411
01:54:40,320 --> 01:54:43,520
Speaker 2: Uh, my neighbor's kid. They got a bull and when

2412
01:54:43,520 --> 01:54:45,960
Speaker 2: they went back up to get they left some meat

2413
01:54:46,000 --> 01:54:48,480
Speaker 2: hanging in a tree. Yeah, And they got up there

2414
01:54:48,520 --> 01:54:50,320
Speaker 2: and there's a lion sitting there nowing on it. They

2415
01:54:50,360 --> 01:54:52,720
Speaker 2: got a bunch of pictures of it. Yeah. Then they

2416
01:54:52,760 --> 01:54:54,200
Speaker 2: had to go in there and get their meat, spook

2417
01:54:54,240 --> 01:54:56,000
Speaker 2: it off, but had the gut pile.

2418
01:54:56,200 --> 01:55:00,240
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, that's when I walked in on. Initially it

2419
01:55:00,360 --> 01:55:02,560
Speaker 3: was confused and there was a raven that had been calling.

2420
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:04,680
Speaker 3: She's a little bed there on the on the right.

2421
01:55:04,720 --> 01:55:05,800
Speaker 3: There they had just been there.

2422
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:08,160
Speaker 2: And then well that's where the lions have been laying.

2423
01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:09,360
Speaker 3: Yeah that's cool. Wow.

2424
01:55:09,520 --> 01:55:10,800
Speaker 2: Oh there you go, the poor thing.

2425
01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:11,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2426
01:55:13,160 --> 01:55:14,680
Speaker 2: God, you take nice pictures.

2427
01:55:14,360 --> 01:55:18,160
Speaker 3: All the time. There are cell phone images. You can

2428
01:55:18,240 --> 01:55:21,280
Speaker 3: hear mom just in the back there there they are.

2429
01:55:21,560 --> 01:55:24,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, excellent, man.

2430
01:55:24,400 --> 01:55:26,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, don't tell you honest where that was.

2431
01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:29,720
Speaker 2: No, he won't mess with them, kind he won't mess them.

2432
01:55:29,800 --> 01:55:30,120
Speaker 2: He did.

2433
01:55:30,160 --> 01:55:30,800
Speaker 3: He just let him go.

2434
01:55:32,120 --> 01:55:34,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, like everyone's going to be growing up.

2435
01:55:35,560 --> 01:55:38,400
Speaker 2: I tell you what. I was cutting Christmas trees. We

2436
01:55:38,440 --> 01:55:44,040
Speaker 2: were hunting trees in my family on Sunday, hunting trees.

2437
01:55:44,480 --> 01:55:46,040
Speaker 2: I'm sitting her with my kids. I'm not kidding, man,

2438
01:55:46,240 --> 01:55:50,000
Speaker 2: like park my daughter broke her foot, so she waits.

2439
01:55:50,040 --> 01:55:51,720
Speaker 2: She I was like, you gotta wait the truck. She's

2440
01:55:51,720 --> 01:55:53,640
Speaker 2: got a broken foot. My wife said, I'm not gonna

2441
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:55,120
Speaker 2: leave from the truck, so I'll just sit in the

2442
01:55:55,120 --> 01:55:57,360
Speaker 2: truck with her two. So me and the boys strike

2443
01:55:57,440 --> 01:55:59,080
Speaker 2: off up the hill. We don't go one hundred yards.

2444
01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:01,480
Speaker 2: And I could get into how it was terrible Christmas

2445
01:56:01,520 --> 01:56:03,720
Speaker 2: tree hunting, but you can see it right there. All

2446
01:56:03,760 --> 01:56:07,360
Speaker 2: that frozen ice and snow makes Christmas tree hunting impossible.

2447
01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:10,280
Speaker 2: To every tree. You gotta tell the boys, get some

2448
01:56:10,360 --> 01:56:14,240
Speaker 2: sticks and whoop the tree. You can't judge them, you

2449
01:56:14,360 --> 01:56:16,640
Speaker 2: can't feel judge, like looking at a deer from the back.

2450
01:56:16,760 --> 01:56:18,280
Speaker 4: They all look, you know how it looks.

2451
01:56:18,360 --> 01:56:20,880
Speaker 2: So we had to beat we like beat three trees clean,

2452
01:56:20,960 --> 01:56:22,160
Speaker 2: and we were just sick of it, and we just

2453
01:56:22,200 --> 01:56:25,920
Speaker 2: decided to take one. Anyway. I look at one point,

2454
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:28,640
Speaker 2: I look at the ground and our dogs running all over. Hell.

2455
01:56:28,720 --> 01:56:31,320
Speaker 2: I look at the ground and there's the brand newest,

2456
01:56:32,200 --> 01:56:35,920
Speaker 2: cleanest lion track, and I realized we kicked that sucker

2457
01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:40,440
Speaker 2: out of this little cluster of Christmas trees, beautiful track,

2458
01:56:40,480 --> 01:56:43,200
Speaker 2: and our dogs like all our dog doesn't notice anything,

2459
01:56:43,240 --> 01:56:50,560
Speaker 2: you know, but not even not even like like any

2460
01:56:50,840 --> 01:56:55,000
Speaker 2: sort of acknowledgment whatsoever that this has happened. Like never

2461
01:56:55,080 --> 01:56:58,320
Speaker 2: sticks or nose in the track, just nothing, not even there.

2462
01:56:58,440 --> 01:57:01,680
Speaker 2: It just doesn't register. It doesn't register that dog. If

2463
01:57:01,680 --> 01:57:05,640
Speaker 2: we weren't there, that dog probably not alive. Be a

2464
01:57:05,720 --> 01:57:08,280
Speaker 2: cat snack at coming on the show man.

2465
01:57:08,480 --> 01:57:10,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate you having me on fascinating world.

2466
01:57:10,720 --> 01:57:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't take a picture, dude. I took black

2467
01:57:14,800 --> 01:57:16,920
Speaker 2: and white photography one and to college.

2468
01:57:18,560 --> 01:57:19,000
Speaker 3: That's good thing.

2469
01:57:19,200 --> 01:57:20,839
Speaker 4: You can see he's more formally trained.

2470
01:57:21,240 --> 01:57:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I realized all I had to do was take

2471
01:57:27,360 --> 01:57:29,600
Speaker 2: black and white photography. Wanted to to realize that was

2472
01:57:29,640 --> 01:57:30,600
Speaker 2: not a visual artist.

2473
01:57:30,920 --> 01:57:33,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't have it. You don't have it.

2474
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:34,200
Speaker 4: You don't have it.

2475
01:57:35,120 --> 01:57:37,480
Speaker 3: I mean, you've done. I should just get the audio

2476
01:57:37,560 --> 01:57:42,480
Speaker 3: from my captions next time for this. Yeah.

2477
01:57:43,040 --> 01:57:46,720
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, your stuff's gorgeous, man, and and I love

2478
01:57:46,760 --> 01:57:48,840
Speaker 2: seeing it. And I got so excited about that beaver stuff.

2479
01:57:48,880 --> 01:57:51,160
Speaker 3: That was cool. Nice. Yeah, cool, I'm glad you called

2480
01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:51,360
Speaker 3: me in.

2481
01:57:51,960 --> 01:57:54,120
Speaker 2: So tell people how people want to go kind of

2482
01:57:54,200 --> 01:57:55,920
Speaker 2: what's the best way to go. If people want to

2483
01:57:56,000 --> 01:57:57,600
Speaker 2: just go see a lot of your work, where do

2484
01:57:57,680 --> 01:57:57,880
Speaker 2: they go?

2485
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:02,640
Speaker 3: You can see it on my website running Donovan dot com, Instagrams,

2486
01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:05,200
Speaker 3: on other place I have a lot of presents. But yeah,

2487
01:58:05,280 --> 01:58:09,120
Speaker 3: also check out the Animus Valley Institute. Oh not my work,

2488
01:58:09,160 --> 01:58:12,520
Speaker 3: but oh not okay, But people that want to rewild

2489
01:58:12,560 --> 01:58:15,600
Speaker 3: themselves and rekindle that relationship to the animate world God,

2490
01:58:15,800 --> 01:58:17,520
Speaker 3: they offer experiences.

2491
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:19,720
Speaker 2: And but on your website they can just go peruse

2492
01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:20,280
Speaker 2: all these.

2493
01:58:20,200 --> 01:58:22,360
Speaker 3: Years to crew's images and all that.

2494
01:58:22,480 --> 01:58:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do stuff we talked about today. They'd find

2495
01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:25,600
Speaker 2: on there some.

2496
01:58:25,680 --> 01:58:28,520
Speaker 3: Of it, some of it I haven't really showed people, Yeah,

2497
01:58:28,640 --> 01:58:30,640
Speaker 3: but some of it's available. Yeah. I have a museum

2498
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:31,800
Speaker 3: exhibit that's traveling around.

2499
01:58:32,240 --> 01:58:34,440
Speaker 2: That was the country I forgot to ask, but one

2500
01:58:34,520 --> 01:58:35,080
Speaker 2: to ask about that.

2501
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:37,960
Speaker 3: Oh that's right, Yeah, yeah, thanks, it's it'll be in

2502
01:58:38,560 --> 01:58:43,320
Speaker 3: Saint Petersburg, Florida next opens up in late March early April.

2503
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:45,640
Speaker 3: But going down for the program for that, it was

2504
01:58:45,640 --> 01:58:48,960
Speaker 3: an Mmarillo, Texas just a couple of months ago in

2505
01:58:49,040 --> 01:58:50,600
Speaker 3: San Diego and after the museum.

2506
01:58:50,440 --> 01:58:51,720
Speaker 2: And what's the what's the called?

2507
01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:56,880
Speaker 3: Well, it's called wolves. It's comparison especially images of Yellowstone

2508
01:58:56,960 --> 01:59:02,160
Speaker 3: and Arctic wolves. God. Yeah, big, big of it. And yeah,

2509
01:59:02,240 --> 01:59:05,120
Speaker 3: lots of text with it as well, there is, yeah, yeah,

2510
01:59:05,480 --> 01:59:07,160
Speaker 3: lots of maps and some because.

2511
01:59:06,960 --> 01:59:07,640
Speaker 2: They had the image.

2512
01:59:08,080 --> 01:59:10,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had the images. Yeah, need some texts to

2513
01:59:10,240 --> 01:59:12,360
Speaker 3: go with it. Yeah. Yeah. It'll come through museum and

2514
01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:15,160
Speaker 3: the Rockies maybe in a couple of years, yeah, which

2515
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:15,880
Speaker 3: I'm excited about.

2516
01:59:15,960 --> 01:59:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, Yeah, that'd be real popular around here.

2517
01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:19,680
Speaker 3: I'm excited for it. Yeah. I want to go to

2518
01:59:19,760 --> 01:59:20,360
Speaker 3: Colorado too.

2519
01:59:20,880 --> 01:59:22,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you do some work.

2520
01:59:21,960 --> 01:59:25,040
Speaker 3: Down there with wolves, some help. Yeah. All right man, Well,

2521
01:59:25,080 --> 01:59:27,120
Speaker 3: thank you very much, Thanks Steve, thank you, thank you all.

2522
01:59:27,240 --> 01:59:27,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.