WEBVTT - China's Domination Playbook.  Robert Spalding Talks to Armstrong & Getty

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, we've all been talking about the US and

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<v Speaker 1>NATO VERSUS Russia, but we all know who the real

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<v Speaker 1>long term strategic enemy is. That's China. It's extra large

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<v Speaker 1>because four hours, simply enough, this is Armstrong and getty

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<v Speaker 1>extra large. The US Air Force Brigadier General retired Robert Spalding,

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<v Speaker 1>former White House National Security Council Senior Director for Strategic Planning,

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<v Speaker 1>serving senior positions of strategy and diplomacy within the Defense

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<v Speaker 1>and State Departments for more than twenty six years, is

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<v Speaker 1>out with a brand new book that could not be

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<v Speaker 1>more timely. War without Rules, China's playbook for global domination. Robert,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you, sir? I'm great. Thank you so much

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<v Speaker 1>for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure. Uh. War without

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<v Speaker 1>rules and without boundaries, um is China's strategy. We're so

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<v Speaker 1>interested in this, Jack and I personally the idea that

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<v Speaker 1>China views it's contest against the United States and the

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<v Speaker 1>Western world to be an whole of society effort. It

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<v Speaker 1>really is. And it's a different way of thinking about war.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I I trained to drop bombs from a

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<v Speaker 1>V two. This is about, you know, influencing the perceptions,

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<v Speaker 1>the intentions and behaviors of a population using the tools

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<v Speaker 1>the Silicon Valley built to make themselves, you know, fabiously wealthy.

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<v Speaker 1>So well, let's just start with the very basic. What

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<v Speaker 1>is the goal of China. Would they take over the

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<v Speaker 1>world if they could? Well, I mean, that's a very

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<v Speaker 1>good question. Their goal is to stay in power. But

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<v Speaker 1>in order to stay in power, democracies and what they represent,

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<v Speaker 1>this idea of individual freedom, rule of law, human rights,

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<v Speaker 1>has to go away because they fear if the if

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<v Speaker 1>the Chinese people ever ever got you know, these um

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<v Speaker 1>you know, uh principles, then they would overthrow them. And

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<v Speaker 1>so in order to preserve themselves protect themselves, think about

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<v Speaker 1>what we did after World War Two. You know, our

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<v Speaker 1>intention was to remake the world in our image using

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<v Speaker 1>international institutions. So we used the Marshall Plan, we built

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<v Speaker 1>the u N We rebuilt Japan and Korea. These are

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<v Speaker 1>the things that we did, and we did it because

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<v Speaker 1>we wanted to protect ourselves from you know, regimes life

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<v Speaker 1>China or the Soviet Union. The Chinese saw this, they

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<v Speaker 1>watched it. Now, unlike the Soviet Union, they realized that

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<v Speaker 1>the America didn't do this with weapons. They did it

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<v Speaker 1>with economics, they did it with the supply chain. These

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<v Speaker 1>are the things that China learned and they're they're turning

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<v Speaker 1>them around and using them now. So when you say,

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<v Speaker 1>do they want to take over the world, Yes, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're doing it, and that's in order to protect the

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<v Speaker 1>Communist Party's position and power. But can they make the

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<v Speaker 1>same sort of argument that we made. We could make

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<v Speaker 1>the argument to other countries, Look, you adopt our system,

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<v Speaker 1>your lives are gonna be better, You're gonna be your

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<v Speaker 1>people are gonna be happier, etcetera, etcetera. Can China make

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<v Speaker 1>that argument to the world. Oh? Not only can they,

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<v Speaker 1>they are and in fact, in emergency market economies for decades,

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<v Speaker 1>they have thought that China's model is better because China

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<v Speaker 1>is actually investing in them. You know, in Africa, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>China's biggest investment is in low value added manufacturings. So

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<v Speaker 1>they're actually bringing factories into Africa. And the reason they

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<v Speaker 1>can do that is because they've already built the roads,

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<v Speaker 1>the power of the rail, the water. They've created this

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<v Speaker 1>ability to be industrialized. Then they bring industrialization, then they

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<v Speaker 1>bring urbanization, all to create a market that's beholden to China.

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<v Speaker 1>So in much the same way we did the Marshall Plan.

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<v Speaker 1>China is doing that with the Belt and Road initiative.

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<v Speaker 1>So yes, And the answer is when you look around

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<v Speaker 1>these countries at the U N and you say, who

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<v Speaker 1>do you look to for Who's you know? Who do

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<v Speaker 1>you trust in the economy, Who do you trust to

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<v Speaker 1>have be a better, you know, business partner, They're all

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<v Speaker 1>going to say China. And I heard this at the

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<v Speaker 1>White House. You know, people would come to us from Korea,

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<v Speaker 1>from Japan and say, hey, don't force us to choose

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<v Speaker 1>between you and China. We want to be your security partner,

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<v Speaker 1>but we want to be China's business partner. If you

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<v Speaker 1>think about the Soviet Union, it was all about weapons.

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<v Speaker 1>We were all about business. Since the end of the

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<v Speaker 1>Cold War, we become all about weapons and let the

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<v Speaker 1>Chinese take over the business. So a great place to

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<v Speaker 1>ask this question because the bulk of your career took

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<v Speaker 1>place during that period where China was trying to convince

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<v Speaker 1>the United States and the Western world that hey, we're

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<v Speaker 1>not rivals and we're not enemies. We're not trying to

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<v Speaker 1>subvert it or take over anything. We want to cooperate.

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<v Speaker 1>We want to liberalize we want to do business with you,

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of thing. When you know, more recent discoveries

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<v Speaker 1>have made it clear that all along they were playing

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<v Speaker 1>the uh, you know, the the innocent neighbor that just

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<v Speaker 1>wants what's good for you, But indeed they were plotting,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, something like world supremacy. When did you come

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<v Speaker 1>to the realization that Chinese goals were not quite as

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<v Speaker 1>benign as they were trying to pass off. Well, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I had m I had lived in China for two

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<v Speaker 1>years as a young major in the Air Force. I

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<v Speaker 1>went to university in Shanghai called it was Chomji Universities,

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<v Speaker 1>actually built by the Germans, and I loved it, and

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<v Speaker 1>I thought it was fantastic, and I really believed that

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<v Speaker 1>China was a great you know, partner for the US.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, you know, I remember leaving in two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and four telling my wife, I want to come back

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<v Speaker 1>and and do business in China. And it was when

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<v Speaker 1>I it was in two thousand and fourteen when I

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<v Speaker 1>got to the Pentagon and I was working for the

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<v Speaker 1>Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and you know, he had

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<v Speaker 1>me working on the China problem. And I got this

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<v Speaker 1>presentation from a friend that had invested in China New York,

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<v Speaker 1>and the presentation just showed how many of our companies

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<v Speaker 1>China was going after and attacking, and it reminded me

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<v Speaker 1>of what I did with B two is in in bombs,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, they were doing with economics. And it was

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<v Speaker 1>that point when I began to really recognize that we

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<v Speaker 1>were in a competition that I didn't I was never

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<v Speaker 1>trained to deal with as a military officer, So I know,

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<v Speaker 1>I assume a lot of your goal is just to

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<v Speaker 1>wake people up to the you know, the reality of

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<v Speaker 1>what China is and what their goals are. It's inevitable,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it that Nike no longer is making their shoes

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<v Speaker 1>in China and iPhones aren't mate in China. Isn't that inevitable? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not inevitable as long as they think that they

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<v Speaker 1>can get away with it. And what you see in Washington,

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<v Speaker 1>d C. On every single day UH is US corporations

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<v Speaker 1>and US financial institutions making the argument to Washington DC

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<v Speaker 1>that we need to continue to do business with China.

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<v Speaker 1>And so were people like me that are focused on

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<v Speaker 1>national security and the erosion of our industrial base, the

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<v Speaker 1>erosion of our freedoms with this linkage with China and

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<v Speaker 1>their corporations with our operations. You know, on the corporation side,

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<v Speaker 1>they are incentivized financially to basically feed the Chinese Communist

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<v Speaker 1>Party line in the Congress and the White House, and

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, it's not it's counterintuitive, but unfortunately, we

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<v Speaker 1>don't have a corporate sector or a financial sector that

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<v Speaker 1>really has national security at heart. They have, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>their own their financial well being. And that's how China

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<v Speaker 1>has been able to essentially upend the US leadership around

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<v Speaker 1>the world. Hollywood no longer listens to American values. They

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<v Speaker 1>listened to Chinese Communist Party values because they're the ones

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<v Speaker 1>with the wallet. I'd love to hear you expand on

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<v Speaker 1>something you mentioned briefly, and that's how China's exploited Silicon

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<v Speaker 1>Valley and American technology UM to do the economic war

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<v Speaker 1>against us. What do you mean by that, Well, so, um,

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<v Speaker 1>what Silicon Valley created was the ability to take data

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<v Speaker 1>about you, and this is when the iPhone came out

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand seven, two thousand nine, we started building

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<v Speaker 1>these four G networks, really created the opportunity for the

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<v Speaker 1>mobile economy, and that's when if you go back to

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<v Speaker 1>that day two thousand seven when the iPhone came out

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<v Speaker 1>and look at the companies that were leading in the

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<v Speaker 1>United States A T and T, J and Electric, Microsoft

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<v Speaker 1>x on Mobile Shell and ten years later it's Face, Amazon, Apple, Netflix,

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<v Speaker 1>and Google. And what they did, what Silicon Valley did,

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<v Speaker 1>was take all that data that was coming off of

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<v Speaker 1>your device and figure out how to understand your perceptions

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<v Speaker 1>and intentions and then begin to slowly change those perceptions

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<v Speaker 1>and intentions to make you a better consumer. And so

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<v Speaker 1>this tool of using data that's collected about you and

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<v Speaker 1>then changing your perceptions is exactly the tool that China

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<v Speaker 1>sought to harness and seeks to harness now through it.

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<v Speaker 1>In other words, they get the data from your phone

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<v Speaker 1>and then they figure out what you like and then

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<v Speaker 1>they start to feed you message. But they're not just

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<v Speaker 1>about selling you things. It's also about, you know, how

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<v Speaker 1>do we convince you that your social and political beliefs

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<v Speaker 1>may not be what you think they are. And so

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<v Speaker 1>that's what they do for their own population. But what

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<v Speaker 1>we gave them, what Silicon Valley gave them, is the

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<v Speaker 1>ability to do that on a global stage. This is

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<v Speaker 1>unprecedented in warfare, You've never been able to go after

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<v Speaker 1>the population because you've always had borders in the government

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<v Speaker 1>that protected the population from outside influence. Now we can

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<v Speaker 1>go right to the individual when you can begin to

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<v Speaker 1>road their faith and confidence in their own governing systems,

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<v Speaker 1>and you see that happening on a daily basis. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's essentially when you say, what is war without rules?

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<v Speaker 1>It's about using the Internet and globalization to undermine the

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<v Speaker 1>international order and the domestic social cohesion of free societies

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<v Speaker 1>around the world. Speaking of international order, what do you

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<v Speaker 1>think she and the I mean, his party's view is

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<v Speaker 1>of what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Are they happy

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<v Speaker 1>about this or is it getting in their way? No?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean so, uh. Putin came to China to get

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<v Speaker 1>approval from She for the invasion of the Ukraine. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>all she said is don't do it until the Olympics

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<v Speaker 1>are over. What she wanted out of that was to

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<v Speaker 1>watch how we the West reacted to Russia. And the

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<v Speaker 1>reason he wanted that to happen is because he was

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<v Speaker 1>worried about when he invades Taiwan. He wants to know

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<v Speaker 1>how we're going to react. So now he because we've

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<v Speaker 1>gone all In on this Russia Ukraine thing. Now China

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<v Speaker 1>is going through the steps to make sure that everything

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<v Speaker 1>that we did to the Russians will not be effective

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to their invasion of Taiwan. So they

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<v Speaker 1>got to run a real life test simulation of what

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<v Speaker 1>our reaction would be. And I also noticed you said

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<v Speaker 1>when they invade Taiwan and not if yes, that's happening,

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<v Speaker 1>it's She has already said that it's it's not. He's

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<v Speaker 1>not going to leave it to the next generation. So

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<v Speaker 1>what they wanted to make sure is that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>anything that we were hiding hiding in our pockets, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the Russians believed, actually believed that they had you prevented

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<v Speaker 1>themselves from being really you know, able to be attacked

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<v Speaker 1>through the international financial system and the global economy. Well

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<v Speaker 1>we attacked them, right, and we put them in a box.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really strangling them. This was news to Putin, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was also news to she, And so the good

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<v Speaker 1>thing about she getting to watch it happen to Putin

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<v Speaker 1>is now he has the ability to put in place

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<v Speaker 1>the measures to ensure it won't happen him. Man, that's

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating stuff. Yeah, and as long as we're discussing gigantic

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<v Speaker 1>news stories that have changed depending lives, can you talk

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<v Speaker 1>to us about your point of view on how China

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<v Speaker 1>handled COVID from the beginning to the present day. Well, um,

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<v Speaker 1>the so first let me say that, Um, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know how COVID, you know, you know, got into the wild,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it was in the market and a lab, whether

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<v Speaker 1>it was intentional, whether it was accidental. But what I

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<v Speaker 1>can tell you is what the Chinese Communist Party does,

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<v Speaker 1>and if they're faced with a crisis, they are silent.

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<v Speaker 1>They watch what's going on, and then they think about

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<v Speaker 1>how they take advantage of the situation for their benefits.

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<v Speaker 1>So what they realized is that they could create enormous

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<v Speaker 1>fear about this virus and in doing so, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>really get other nations, other economies to shut down. Well

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<v Speaker 1>what did that do? That enabled them to have even

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<v Speaker 1>further control on the global economy, further control on the

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<v Speaker 1>global supply Chaine. So how do we know that they

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<v Speaker 1>did this? Well, the the epidemiology model that was used

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<v Speaker 1>by the West to justify Locktan came from the Imperial

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<v Speaker 1>College of London. Now people don't know that the Imperial

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<v Speaker 1>College of London has been getting tens of millions of

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<v Speaker 1>dollars from the Chinese Communist Party, and in fact, in

0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:16.120
<v Speaker 1>two thousand and fifteen, Shi Jumping himself visited that school,

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.520
<v Speaker 1>and then you have the videos coming out of Wuhan,

0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.480
<v Speaker 1>and so what you have is essentially be once they

0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.160
<v Speaker 1>figured it out what they were gonna do, they started

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.240
<v Speaker 1>to hype the fear, and then bosts on social media

0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:31.880
<v Speaker 1>began to you know, share that um that epidemiology model

0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.520
<v Speaker 1>that began to share those videos, and we created an

0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:40.079
<v Speaker 1>even today, that fear still resonans to resonates throughout the world.

0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.000
<v Speaker 1>And if you think about unrestricted warfare, what they were

0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.160
<v Speaker 1>trying to do is show, hey, create fear and then

0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.800
<v Speaker 1>you can begin to take advantage of that fear. We

0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.000
<v Speaker 1>adopted policies that had never been part of any pandemic

0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.920
<v Speaker 1>um you know plans in the past. Lockdowns were never

0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.760
<v Speaker 1>never a part of any of the CDC lands or

0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:04.080
<v Speaker 1>the World Health Organization plans. All of a sudden, within

0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:08.640
<v Speaker 1>weeks of China implementing lockdowns, the World Health Organization comes

0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.959
<v Speaker 1>out and says, this is fantastic. They've stopped the virus

0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 1>and its tracks. And in fact, today, China still reports

0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.319
<v Speaker 1>that they've only had forty six hundred people die a

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:22.160
<v Speaker 1>coronavirus that's been reported by the media. So this is

0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 1>the this is how they use a coronavirus, you know,

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.920
<v Speaker 1>as an advantageous way to further strengthen their hold over

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:35.360
<v Speaker 1>the global economy and global medical health policy. Do the

0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 1>final question, I know your time is limited. Do you

0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.080
<v Speaker 1>feel like, whether it's the American people are in the

0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.160
<v Speaker 1>halls of power, people have woken up that China is

0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:48.640
<v Speaker 1>not our buddy, is not our benign business partner. I

0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:53.600
<v Speaker 1>see it happening every single day. But as you know, um,

0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:58.360
<v Speaker 1>we are a very fickle society. And unfortunately, what you

0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.120
<v Speaker 1>see with and what you've over the last two years

0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 1>is we are so willing to give up our freedoms

0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.960
<v Speaker 1>for security today that I would say that the population

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.960
<v Speaker 1>is un would be unrecognizable to our founding fathers. I

0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 1>would agree with that have lost the lust for liberty. Yeah,

0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.360
<v Speaker 1>and uh and uh are willingness to give up all

0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:24.360
<v Speaker 1>kinds of things for cheap crap, cheap shoes, cheap underwear,

0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.600
<v Speaker 1>cheap iPhones. Yeah, amen to that. The book is We're

0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:32.360
<v Speaker 1>without rules. Go ahead, Robert no absolutely. I mean we

0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.760
<v Speaker 1>would we would easily give up our freedoms or you know,

0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 1>even sacrifice our own principles if we can get something

0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 1>for cheaper, were without rules, China's Playbook for Global domination.

0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.320
<v Speaker 1>Robert Spaulding. Robert really enjoyed the chat. I hope we

0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.440
<v Speaker 1>can do it again sometime, Thank you so much. Man

0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:57.520
<v Speaker 1>had some interesting stuff about they funded the group that

0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.080
<v Speaker 1>laid out the plans for shutdowns in the world. Oh yeah,

0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.800
<v Speaker 1>Imperial College in London. I remember those, uh, those frameworks

0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.080
<v Speaker 1>being quoted in the media constantly, and then it came

0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.160
<v Speaker 1>out that they're a ridiculous and be the w h

0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 1>o uh. The c d C, every responsible organization that

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.880
<v Speaker 1>deals with this sort of thing had rejected the idea

0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:19.800
<v Speaker 1>of shutdowns for years and years and years. They've been

0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.080
<v Speaker 1>talking about this stuff forever, but then all of a

0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:27.840
<v Speaker 1>sudden it was the go to. And the fact that

0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.880
<v Speaker 1>they're running a real life simulation of what it looks

0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.000
<v Speaker 1>like when the United States and NATO goes to war

0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:39.560
<v Speaker 1>over a country invading another country is something that what's

0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.560
<v Speaker 1>a focus group? It's like when a TV show puts

0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.040
<v Speaker 1>together a focus group and plays the episode for him

0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.000
<v Speaker 1>to see if people laugh or not. They get to

0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:47.960
<v Speaker 1>do a focus group on this sort of an invasion

0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.880
<v Speaker 1>and see how the world reacts so they can come

0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 1>up with their strategies to get around the reaction. And

0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 1>the other thing General is involved with that we didn't

0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.280
<v Speaker 1>get a chance to chat with him about is he's

0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:00.520
<v Speaker 1>the founder and current CEO of a pity that I

0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 1>think it's pronounced semper um, but it's the Simpered micro

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.359
<v Speaker 1>Data Center ensures access to data anytime, anywhere, even in

0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.159
<v Speaker 1>catastrophic conditions, by offering high performance edge computing and diverse

0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.600
<v Speaker 1>secure communications, including five G all in a Tampa resistant

0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.800
<v Speaker 1>e MP hardened enclosure. And the reason I'm so interested

0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:21.960
<v Speaker 1>in that is conversations I've had with various people in

0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.399
<v Speaker 1>the military who talk about the first thing you do

0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:31.520
<v Speaker 1>is disrupt your enemies communications. And given our dependence on

0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.280
<v Speaker 1>satellite driven UH communication systems in the Internet and the

0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.879
<v Speaker 1>rest of it, we I know, DARPA and other you know,

0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, parts of the military have been working very hard.

0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.560
<v Speaker 1>I don't know a lot about this for obvious reasons.

0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.960
<v Speaker 1>It's highly classified. But what platform do we use and

0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:49.600
<v Speaker 1>when that one goes down, which one do we move?

0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.640
<v Speaker 1>To and then what channel and what frequency, and then

0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.880
<v Speaker 1>what's next and what's next after that so we can

0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.919
<v Speaker 1>continue to be in communication. And again he probably couldn't

0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:59.879
<v Speaker 1>say a lot about it, but that is a field

0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.840
<v Speaker 1>that I have a feeling is going to be uh

0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.240
<v Speaker 1>top of mind if the Pooh ever hits the fan

0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.240
<v Speaker 1>Wake Up extra large