Speaker 1: Of course, we've all been talking about the US and
Speaker 1: NATO VERSUS Russia, but we all know who the real
Speaker 1: long term strategic enemy is. That's China. It's extra large
Speaker 1: because four hours, simply enough, this is Armstrong and getty
Speaker 1: extra large. The US Air Force Brigadier General retired Robert Spalding,
Speaker 1: former White House National Security Council Senior Director for Strategic Planning,
Speaker 1: serving senior positions of strategy and diplomacy within the Defense
Speaker 1: and State Departments for more than twenty six years, is
Speaker 1: out with a brand new book that could not be
Speaker 1: more timely. War without Rules, China's playbook for global domination. Robert,
Speaker 1: how are you, sir? I'm great. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure. Uh. War without
Speaker 1: rules and without boundaries, um is China's strategy. We're so
Speaker 1: interested in this, Jack and I personally the idea that
Speaker 1: China views it's contest against the United States and the
Speaker 1: Western world to be an whole of society effort. It
Speaker 1: really is. And it's a different way of thinking about war.
Speaker 1: You know, I I trained to drop bombs from a
Speaker 1: V two. This is about, you know, influencing the perceptions,
Speaker 1: the intentions and behaviors of a population using the tools
Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley built to make themselves, you know, fabiously wealthy.
Speaker 1: So well, let's just start with the very basic. What
Speaker 1: is the goal of China. Would they take over the
Speaker 1: world if they could? Well, I mean, that's a very
Speaker 1: good question. Their goal is to stay in power. But
Speaker 1: in order to stay in power, democracies and what they represent,
Speaker 1: this idea of individual freedom, rule of law, human rights,
Speaker 1: has to go away because they fear if the if
Speaker 1: the Chinese people ever ever got you know, these um
Speaker 1: you know, uh principles, then they would overthrow them. And
Speaker 1: so in order to preserve themselves protect themselves, think about
Speaker 1: what we did after World War Two. You know, our
Speaker 1: intention was to remake the world in our image using
Speaker 1: international institutions. So we used the Marshall Plan, we built
Speaker 1: the u N We rebuilt Japan and Korea. These are
Speaker 1: the things that we did, and we did it because
Speaker 1: we wanted to protect ourselves from you know, regimes life
Speaker 1: China or the Soviet Union. The Chinese saw this, they
Speaker 1: watched it. Now, unlike the Soviet Union, they realized that
Speaker 1: the America didn't do this with weapons. They did it
Speaker 1: with economics, they did it with the supply chain. These
Speaker 1: are the things that China learned and they're they're turning
Speaker 1: them around and using them now. So when you say,
Speaker 1: do they want to take over the world, Yes, and
Speaker 1: they're doing it, and that's in order to protect the
Speaker 1: Communist Party's position and power. But can they make the
Speaker 1: same sort of argument that we made. We could make
Speaker 1: the argument to other countries, Look, you adopt our system,
Speaker 1: your lives are gonna be better, You're gonna be your
Speaker 1: people are gonna be happier, etcetera, etcetera. Can China make
Speaker 1: that argument to the world. Oh? Not only can they,
Speaker 1: they are and in fact, in emergency market economies for decades,
Speaker 1: they have thought that China's model is better because China
Speaker 1: is actually investing in them. You know, in Africa, for example,
Speaker 1: China's biggest investment is in low value added manufacturings. So
Speaker 1: they're actually bringing factories into Africa. And the reason they
Speaker 1: can do that is because they've already built the roads,
Speaker 1: the power of the rail, the water. They've created this
Speaker 1: ability to be industrialized. Then they bring industrialization, then they
Speaker 1: bring urbanization, all to create a market that's beholden to China.
Speaker 1: So in much the same way we did the Marshall Plan.
Speaker 1: China is doing that with the Belt and Road initiative.
Speaker 1: So yes, And the answer is when you look around
Speaker 1: these countries at the U N and you say, who
Speaker 1: do you look to for Who's you know? Who do
Speaker 1: you trust in the economy, Who do you trust to
Speaker 1: have be a better, you know, business partner, They're all
Speaker 1: going to say China. And I heard this at the
Speaker 1: White House. You know, people would come to us from Korea,
Speaker 1: from Japan and say, hey, don't force us to choose
Speaker 1: between you and China. We want to be your security partner,
Speaker 1: but we want to be China's business partner. If you
Speaker 1: think about the Soviet Union, it was all about weapons.
Speaker 1: We were all about business. Since the end of the
Speaker 1: Cold War, we become all about weapons and let the
Speaker 1: Chinese take over the business. So a great place to
Speaker 1: ask this question because the bulk of your career took
Speaker 1: place during that period where China was trying to convince
Speaker 1: the United States and the Western world that hey, we're
Speaker 1: not rivals and we're not enemies. We're not trying to
Speaker 1: subvert it or take over anything. We want to cooperate.
Speaker 1: We want to liberalize we want to do business with you,
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. When you know, more recent discoveries
Speaker 1: have made it clear that all along they were playing
Speaker 1: the uh, you know, the the innocent neighbor that just
Speaker 1: wants what's good for you, But indeed they were plotting,
Speaker 1: you know, something like world supremacy. When did you come
Speaker 1: to the realization that Chinese goals were not quite as
Speaker 1: benign as they were trying to pass off. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I had m I had lived in China for two
Speaker 1: years as a young major in the Air Force. I
Speaker 1: went to university in Shanghai called it was Chomji Universities,
Speaker 1: actually built by the Germans, and I loved it, and
Speaker 1: I thought it was fantastic, and I really believed that
Speaker 1: China was a great you know, partner for the US.
Speaker 1: In fact, you know, I remember leaving in two thousand
Speaker 1: and four telling my wife, I want to come back
Speaker 1: and and do business in China. And it was when
Speaker 1: I it was in two thousand and fourteen when I
Speaker 1: got to the Pentagon and I was working for the
Speaker 1: Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and you know, he had
Speaker 1: me working on the China problem. And I got this
Speaker 1: presentation from a friend that had invested in China New York,
Speaker 1: and the presentation just showed how many of our companies
Speaker 1: China was going after and attacking, and it reminded me
Speaker 1: of what I did with B two is in in bombs,
Speaker 1: you know, they were doing with economics. And it was
Speaker 1: that point when I began to really recognize that we
Speaker 1: were in a competition that I didn't I was never
Speaker 1: trained to deal with as a military officer, So I know,
Speaker 1: I assume a lot of your goal is just to
Speaker 1: wake people up to the you know, the reality of
Speaker 1: what China is and what their goals are. It's inevitable,
Speaker 1: isn't it that Nike no longer is making their shoes
Speaker 1: in China and iPhones aren't mate in China. Isn't that inevitable? Well,
Speaker 1: it's not inevitable as long as they think that they
Speaker 1: can get away with it. And what you see in Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. On every single day UH is US corporations
Speaker 1: and US financial institutions making the argument to Washington DC
Speaker 1: that we need to continue to do business with China.
Speaker 1: And so were people like me that are focused on
Speaker 1: national security and the erosion of our industrial base, the
Speaker 1: erosion of our freedoms with this linkage with China and
Speaker 1: their corporations with our operations. You know, on the corporation side,
Speaker 1: they are incentivized financially to basically feed the Chinese Communist
Speaker 1: Party line in the Congress and the White House, and
Speaker 1: so you know, it's not it's counterintuitive, but unfortunately, we
Speaker 1: don't have a corporate sector or a financial sector that
Speaker 1: really has national security at heart. They have, you know,
Speaker 1: their own their financial well being. And that's how China
Speaker 1: has been able to essentially upend the US leadership around
Speaker 1: the world. Hollywood no longer listens to American values. They
Speaker 1: listened to Chinese Communist Party values because they're the ones
Speaker 1: with the wallet. I'd love to hear you expand on
Speaker 1: something you mentioned briefly, and that's how China's exploited Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley and American technology UM to do the economic war
Speaker 1: against us. What do you mean by that, Well, so, um,
Speaker 1: what Silicon Valley created was the ability to take data
Speaker 1: about you, and this is when the iPhone came out
Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, two thousand nine, we started building
Speaker 1: these four G networks, really created the opportunity for the
Speaker 1: mobile economy, and that's when if you go back to
Speaker 1: that day two thousand seven when the iPhone came out
Speaker 1: and look at the companies that were leading in the
Speaker 1: United States A T and T, J and Electric, Microsoft
Speaker 1: x on Mobile Shell and ten years later it's Face, Amazon, Apple, Netflix,
Speaker 1: and Google. And what they did, what Silicon Valley did,
Speaker 1: was take all that data that was coming off of
Speaker 1: your device and figure out how to understand your perceptions
Speaker 1: and intentions and then begin to slowly change those perceptions
Speaker 1: and intentions to make you a better consumer. And so
Speaker 1: this tool of using data that's collected about you and
Speaker 1: then changing your perceptions is exactly the tool that China
Speaker 1: sought to harness and seeks to harness now through it.
Speaker 1: In other words, they get the data from your phone
Speaker 1: and then they figure out what you like and then
Speaker 1: they start to feed you message. But they're not just
Speaker 1: about selling you things. It's also about, you know, how
Speaker 1: do we convince you that your social and political beliefs
Speaker 1: may not be what you think they are. And so
Speaker 1: that's what they do for their own population. But what
Speaker 1: we gave them, what Silicon Valley gave them, is the
Speaker 1: ability to do that on a global stage. This is
Speaker 1: unprecedented in warfare, You've never been able to go after
Speaker 1: the population because you've always had borders in the government
Speaker 1: that protected the population from outside influence. Now we can
Speaker 1: go right to the individual when you can begin to
Speaker 1: road their faith and confidence in their own governing systems,
Speaker 1: and you see that happening on a daily basis. So
Speaker 1: that's essentially when you say, what is war without rules?
Speaker 1: It's about using the Internet and globalization to undermine the
Speaker 1: international order and the domestic social cohesion of free societies
Speaker 1: around the world. Speaking of international order, what do you
Speaker 1: think she and the I mean, his party's view is
Speaker 1: of what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Are they happy
Speaker 1: about this or is it getting in their way? No?
Speaker 1: I mean so, uh. Putin came to China to get
Speaker 1: approval from She for the invasion of the Ukraine. Now,
Speaker 1: all she said is don't do it until the Olympics
Speaker 1: are over. What she wanted out of that was to
Speaker 1: watch how we the West reacted to Russia. And the
Speaker 1: reason he wanted that to happen is because he was
Speaker 1: worried about when he invades Taiwan. He wants to know
Speaker 1: how we're going to react. So now he because we've
Speaker 1: gone all In on this Russia Ukraine thing. Now China
Speaker 1: is going through the steps to make sure that everything
Speaker 1: that we did to the Russians will not be effective
Speaker 1: when it comes to their invasion of Taiwan. So they
Speaker 1: got to run a real life test simulation of what
Speaker 1: our reaction would be. And I also noticed you said
Speaker 1: when they invade Taiwan and not if yes, that's happening,
Speaker 1: it's She has already said that it's it's not. He's
Speaker 1: not going to leave it to the next generation. So
Speaker 1: what they wanted to make sure is that you know,
Speaker 1: anything that we were hiding hiding in our pockets, you know,
Speaker 1: the Russians believed, actually believed that they had you prevented
Speaker 1: themselves from being really you know, able to be attacked
Speaker 1: through the international financial system and the global economy. Well
Speaker 1: we attacked them, right, and we put them in a box.
Speaker 1: It's really strangling them. This was news to Putin, but
Speaker 1: it was also news to she, And so the good
Speaker 1: thing about she getting to watch it happen to Putin
Speaker 1: is now he has the ability to put in place
Speaker 1: the measures to ensure it won't happen him. Man, that's
Speaker 1: fascinating stuff. Yeah, and as long as we're discussing gigantic
Speaker 1: news stories that have changed depending lives, can you talk
Speaker 1: to us about your point of view on how China
Speaker 1: handled COVID from the beginning to the present day. Well, um,
Speaker 1: the so first let me say that, Um, I don't
Speaker 1: know how COVID, you know, you know, got into the wild,
Speaker 1: whether it was in the market and a lab, whether
Speaker 1: it was intentional, whether it was accidental. But what I
Speaker 1: can tell you is what the Chinese Communist Party does,
Speaker 1: and if they're faced with a crisis, they are silent.
Speaker 1: They watch what's going on, and then they think about
Speaker 1: how they take advantage of the situation for their benefits.
Speaker 1: So what they realized is that they could create enormous
Speaker 1: fear about this virus and in doing so, you know,
Speaker 1: really get other nations, other economies to shut down. Well
Speaker 1: what did that do? That enabled them to have even
Speaker 1: further control on the global economy, further control on the
Speaker 1: global supply Chaine. So how do we know that they
Speaker 1: did this? Well, the the epidemiology model that was used
Speaker 1: by the West to justify Locktan came from the Imperial
Speaker 1: College of London. Now people don't know that the Imperial
Speaker 1: College of London has been getting tens of millions of
Speaker 1: dollars from the Chinese Communist Party, and in fact, in
Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen, Shi Jumping himself visited that school,
Speaker 1: and then you have the videos coming out of Wuhan,
Speaker 1: and so what you have is essentially be once they
Speaker 1: figured it out what they were gonna do, they started
Speaker 1: to hype the fear, and then bosts on social media
Speaker 1: began to you know, share that um that epidemiology model
Speaker 1: that began to share those videos, and we created an
Speaker 1: even today, that fear still resonans to resonates throughout the world.
Speaker 1: And if you think about unrestricted warfare, what they were
Speaker 1: trying to do is show, hey, create fear and then
Speaker 1: you can begin to take advantage of that fear. We
Speaker 1: adopted policies that had never been part of any pandemic
Speaker 1: um you know plans in the past. Lockdowns were never
Speaker 1: never a part of any of the CDC lands or
Speaker 1: the World Health Organization plans. All of a sudden, within
Speaker 1: weeks of China implementing lockdowns, the World Health Organization comes
Speaker 1: out and says, this is fantastic. They've stopped the virus
Speaker 1: and its tracks. And in fact, today, China still reports
Speaker 1: that they've only had forty six hundred people die a
Speaker 1: coronavirus that's been reported by the media. So this is
Speaker 1: the this is how they use a coronavirus, you know,
Speaker 1: as an advantageous way to further strengthen their hold over
Speaker 1: the global economy and global medical health policy. Do the
Speaker 1: final question, I know your time is limited. Do you
Speaker 1: feel like, whether it's the American people are in the
Speaker 1: halls of power, people have woken up that China is
Speaker 1: not our buddy, is not our benign business partner. I
Speaker 1: see it happening every single day. But as you know, um,
Speaker 1: we are a very fickle society. And unfortunately, what you
Speaker 1: see with and what you've over the last two years
Speaker 1: is we are so willing to give up our freedoms
Speaker 1: for security today that I would say that the population
Speaker 1: is un would be unrecognizable to our founding fathers. I
Speaker 1: would agree with that have lost the lust for liberty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh and uh are willingness to give up all
Speaker 1: kinds of things for cheap crap, cheap shoes, cheap underwear,
Speaker 1: cheap iPhones. Yeah, amen to that. The book is We're
Speaker 1: without rules. Go ahead, Robert no absolutely. I mean we
Speaker 1: would we would easily give up our freedoms or you know,
Speaker 1: even sacrifice our own principles if we can get something
Speaker 1: for cheaper, were without rules, China's Playbook for Global domination.
Speaker 1: Robert Spaulding. Robert really enjoyed the chat. I hope we
Speaker 1: can do it again sometime, Thank you so much. Man
Speaker 1: had some interesting stuff about they funded the group that
Speaker 1: laid out the plans for shutdowns in the world. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Imperial College in London. I remember those, uh, those frameworks
Speaker 1: being quoted in the media constantly, and then it came
Speaker 1: out that they're a ridiculous and be the w h
Speaker 1: o uh. The c d C, every responsible organization that
Speaker 1: deals with this sort of thing had rejected the idea
Speaker 1: of shutdowns for years and years and years. They've been
Speaker 1: talking about this stuff forever, but then all of a
Speaker 1: sudden it was the go to. And the fact that
Speaker 1: they're running a real life simulation of what it looks
Speaker 1: like when the United States and NATO goes to war
Speaker 1: over a country invading another country is something that what's
Speaker 1: a focus group? It's like when a TV show puts
Speaker 1: together a focus group and plays the episode for him
Speaker 1: to see if people laugh or not. They get to
Speaker 1: do a focus group on this sort of an invasion
Speaker 1: and see how the world reacts so they can come
Speaker 1: up with their strategies to get around the reaction. And
Speaker 1: the other thing General is involved with that we didn't
Speaker 1: get a chance to chat with him about is he's
Speaker 1: the founder and current CEO of a pity that I
Speaker 1: think it's pronounced semper um, but it's the Simpered micro
Speaker 1: Data Center ensures access to data anytime, anywhere, even in
Speaker 1: catastrophic conditions, by offering high performance edge computing and diverse
Speaker 1: secure communications, including five G all in a Tampa resistant
Speaker 1: e MP hardened enclosure. And the reason I'm so interested
Speaker 1: in that is conversations I've had with various people in
Speaker 1: the military who talk about the first thing you do
Speaker 1: is disrupt your enemies communications. And given our dependence on
Speaker 1: satellite driven UH communication systems in the Internet and the
Speaker 1: rest of it, we I know, DARPA and other you know,
Speaker 1: you know, parts of the military have been working very hard.
Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about this for obvious reasons.
Speaker 1: It's highly classified. But what platform do we use and
Speaker 1: when that one goes down, which one do we move?
Speaker 1: To and then what channel and what frequency, and then
Speaker 1: what's next and what's next after that so we can
Speaker 1: continue to be in communication. And again he probably couldn't
Speaker 1: say a lot about it, but that is a field
Speaker 1: that I have a feeling is going to be uh
Speaker 1: top of mind if the Pooh ever hits the fan
Speaker 1: Wake Up extra large