1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Three children shot, Mommy shot 2 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: as well. What evil doer would flag Mommy down then 3 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: unload a hail of bullets into the car? Crime Stories 4 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. On a late night in May nineteen 5 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: eighty three, Diane Downs arrives at McKenzie william At Hospital 6 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: in a blood splattered vehicle. In the backseat, her three 7 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: children have been shot. Seven year old Cheryl is dead, 8 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: three year old Danny and eight year old Christie are 9 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: barely alive, but doctors are able to save them. Danny 10 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: is paralyzed from the waist down. Christy has a stroke 11 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: resulting from her injuries, and she's unable for some time 12 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: to speak. Downs herself has been shot in the left forearm. 13 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: Your three children shot, one left paralyzed, one gets a 14 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: stroke and can't speak. A third child dies. Joining me 15 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: an all star panel, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of 16 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: Red Flags on Amazon and host of Today with Doctor 17 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: Wendy KCBQ San Diego with Me, Doctor Jory Crass and 18 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: police psychologist faculty Saint Leo University. Author of Operation s 19 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: o S Practical Recommendations to Stop Officers Suicide. Dan Corsantino, 20 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: joining US former police chief and sheriff, also formerly with 21 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: US Homeland Security, now at Dan Korsantino dot com. Private investigations. 22 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: Doctor Tim Gallagher the medical examiner for the entire state 23 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: of Florida. You can find him at PATHCAREMD dot com. 24 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: But joy me right now from crime online dot com. 25 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: Levi Page, Levi Page, the mom shot, the three children's shot. 26 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: She barely makes it to the emergency room. Who why, where? When? Why? 27 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: Where did this happen? Let's start with that. This is 28 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three, Springfield, Organ, and we're talking about Diane Down. 29 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,399 Speaker 1: She's twenty seven years old, a postal worker, a divorcee, 30 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: and she's driving down a road. She says that she's 31 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: speeding to the er in Springfield, Organ. Inside her car 32 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: it's blood soaked because she and her kids have been shot. 33 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: According you know, Wendy Patrick, I don't know if you 34 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: noticed it. When Levi Page is giving us the initial 35 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: facts of the shootings, mom and three children all shot 36 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: in the car, when he had to point out she's 37 00:02:54,480 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: a divorcee. Why why does that matter? Why is it 38 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: when women are described they're so often described as basically, 39 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, a tramp a divorce that it just kind 40 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: of like puts a slant on the whole thing. It 41 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: really does Nancy right from the beginning, and that it's 42 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: unfortunate that we describe people certain ways because we have 43 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: this hesitancy that we're almost afraid that there's going to 44 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: be a stigma attached to one's status, whether it's single, 45 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: whether it's divorced, whether it's you know, unmarried or widowed. 46 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: And the problem is when you're describing a crime that 47 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: some might think that has something to do with why 48 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: you've been victimized or why you might be a suspect. 49 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: And on the other hand, and Levi Page's defense, very 50 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: often when women and children are targeted, it's by the 51 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: male member of the family. I n ex husband, boyfriend, lover. 52 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: But I do find that very interesting, Levi Page. You 53 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: can put that in your pipe and smoke it for 54 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: a few moments. In the mean time, take a listen 55 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: to our friend Detective Doug Welsh. Diane was driving down 56 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: the road in this direction, she said, a stranger appeared 57 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: and flagged her down. She stopped her car, stepped out 58 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: with the door open, and said, what's the problem. He replied, 59 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: I want your car, she said, you've got to be kidding, 60 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: at which time she claims that he pushed her aside, 61 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: leaned in the vehicle, and shocked the children. She claims 62 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: to have fake throwing her car keys off in the field. 63 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: He fired the weapon and struck her in the left forearm. 64 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: She then pushed him away and jumped in her car, and, 65 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: according to her version, roared off down the road to 66 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: the hospital. To Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and author of 67 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: Red Flags, you know when we see a carjack case, 68 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: I've prosecuted any of them. I'm sure you have too. 69 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: What they want is the car. The perp wants the car. 70 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: It's very rare that we see a perp unleasha hell 71 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: of bullets on children. That's exactly right, Nancy. When you 72 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: look at the motive for committing a crime, it's usually 73 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: one or the other. If you're going to steal a car, 74 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: you need wheels. You don't need to leave victims in 75 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: your wake, especially not with ballistics that are very easily traceable. 76 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: So when you look at what happened here, it doesn't 77 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: seem consistent with a carjacker to kill three children just 78 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: to steal a car. I could see him shooting mommy, 79 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: because every carjack case I've had and there was a 80 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: murder involved ended up being a felony murder. Although I 81 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: think it's a malice murder. But I could see him 82 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: shooting the mom the sheet, or and kicking the kids out, 83 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: or taking off with the children in the back seat, 84 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: sometimes but not gunning down that children, all of them, 85 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: many of them sustaining multiple gunshot wounds. Guys, take a 86 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,239 Speaker 1: listen to k e z I TV producer Shaun Choppy. 87 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: The side panels of the car were covered in blood. 88 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: There was a young girl in the front passenger seat, 89 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: another young girl and a small boy who they could 90 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: hear gasping for air in the back. All three were 91 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: soaked in blood. The girl in the back seat, Cheryl, 92 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: was dead. Would I see most of blood coming out 93 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: of Christie's mouth, because that's what I see. I can't 94 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: see Danny and I can't see sharing his lamb on 95 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: the floor. Medix quickly went to work on the other 96 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: two children, who were still alive, and then what doctors 97 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: call nothing short of a miracle. Both children were saved, 98 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: despite Christy having been shot in the chest and Danny 99 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: in the back. You know, shooting in the bat is 100 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: very difficult to take in. How did that happen with 101 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: the child in the back seat, We understand one child 102 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: out curled up in the front seat. To doctor Tim Gallagher, 103 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: how does a gunshot wound produce a stroke? Well, it's 104 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: very easy for a gunshot wound to cause a stroke. 105 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: If the gun if the bullet goes through a bone, 106 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: it can release some of the bone marrow that is 107 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: within the interior portion of that bone into the bloodstream. 108 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: That bone marrow can travel to the brain and block 109 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: one of the arteries. And if the artery to the 110 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: brain is blocked, that part of the brain dies, and 111 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: that is what we would perceive as being a stroke. 112 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: That part of the brain that functions would be disabled, 113 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: and that the speech or the motion that that part 114 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: of the brain contents that that part of the brain 115 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: provides will no longer be functioning. And that's what we 116 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: can perceive as a stroke. Because typically when you agree, 117 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher that a stroke and a child is 118 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: very unusual, a very unusual and a healthy child. Absolutely, 119 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: this child did not have a record of any coagulation 120 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: of problems in their blood. They did not have a 121 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: history of stroke in their path, so this would be 122 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: a direct result of the gunshot injury. So I've got 123 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: one child dead, one paralyzed, and one suffers a stroke. 124 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about 125 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 1: three children and Mommy gunned down on the side of 126 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: the road. Would be carjacker. Mommy tricks the carjacker and 127 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: takes off to the ear bleeding herself. Take a listen 128 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: to k e z I TV Sean choppy Danny is 129 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: just crying real, real soft, so that sound stays in 130 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: my mind. And the fact that Christie's choking down told 131 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: police a shaggy haired stranger had waved them down. He 132 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: pulled a gun on them, asked for the keys, and 133 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: when Downs refused to hand them over, opened fire on 134 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: all three children. The gun kept firing and firing and firing, 135 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: and it made it was monotonous. It just kept going. 136 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: It was like a slow motion picture. An emergency APB 137 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: was issued and the man hunt was on. APB issued 138 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: man hunt on, guys, how did these three children and 139 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: mommy and up riddled with bullets simply driving along in 140 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: a rural area. Back to you, Leavipage Crime online dot 141 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter, tell me about the area where this happened. Yes, So, 142 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: Diane had taken her children to a friend's house and 143 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: they were riding horses and seeing her friend's horse, and 144 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: she said that she was coming back home and she 145 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: was driving down a dark, herded country road and that's 146 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: when this bushy haired stranger came out in front of 147 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: a vehicle. She stopped, got out to see what he wanted, 148 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: and that's when he said, I want your car, and 149 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: he shot her and her kids, leaving one dead, two 150 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: of them clinging delights from the hospital with me. A 151 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: psychologist at Faculty Saint Leo University, doctor Joey craws In 152 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: Dodger Crawsen, I mean you got to want that car 153 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: a lot to gun down three kids and the mother. 154 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: I guess in the heat of the moment, people lose 155 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: control and panic and start shooting all for a car 156 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: and it's not even a new car. Yeah, that really 157 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: made no sense whatsoever, you know, to like a logical 158 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: thinking person like you say you want the car, You're 159 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: just not going to shoot the children. Your most lineous 160 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: threat would be the driver, the mother, the adult. That's 161 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: the one that you would shoot to kill the children 162 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: you could put out alongside the road and drive off 163 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: with the car. Oh. Absolutely, And this happened in a 164 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: very rural area in Springfield, Oregon. And when I say rural, 165 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: no stop signs, no red lights, no street lights, it's 166 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: a city in Lane County, Oregon, near in the southern 167 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: Williamette Valley. It's off Interstate five. Now, when you look 168 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: at a crime like this to Wendy Patrick, when I 169 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 1: say it's off an interstate, even though it itself is 170 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 1: a rural area, the interstate will play a role in this. 171 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: Let me point out Shasta and Dylan Gronee, who lived 172 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: in a very rural area with their mom and her 173 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: boyfriend in Cord Delane, Idaho. If you fly over their 174 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: home in a helicopter, you see nothing but green, but 175 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: an interstate was nearby, and a killer drove by happened 176 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: to glance over and in the distance though the trees 177 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: saw Shasta at an above ground pool, pulls in kills 178 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: the whole family to kidnap and molest Shasta and Dylan, 179 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: ultimately killing Dal and Shasta survived. So rural doesn't mean 180 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: safety like it used to me. Wendy Patrick. Oh, that's 181 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: absolutely true. You know, rural sometimes, especially as you mentioned, 182 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: if it's close to an interstate, that's an escape route. 183 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: That is a place that a criminal can go and 184 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: find a remote area without a lot of witnesses, which 185 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: is also one of the things that could make a 186 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: rural area dangerous. Commit a crime and then get right 187 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: back on the industry and escape into oblivion. You know, 188 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: that is one of the reasons. Sadly, as you and 189 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: I know that some criminals choose rural areas close to interstates, 190 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: is this an easy way to commit a crime not 191 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: get caught because of the lack of witnesses. According to 192 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: the last census, there were only fifty nine thousand people 193 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: living there. Now it's interesting too. Dan Corsentino, former police 194 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: chief and sheriff, also formerly with Homeland Security, now PI 195 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: at Dan Coorsentino dot com. Dan, when you think of 196 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: a rural area, you think of low crime rate, and 197 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: typically that is true. Typically that is true, and you're 198 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: also thinking open space, you're thinking isolation, and you're thinking 199 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: that you would be away from any populated area. So 200 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: that gives the individual who is the suspect in this case, 201 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: an opportunity to commit the crime. Take a listen to 202 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: our friend tie or hunt at crime online dot com. 203 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: Diane Downs claims she was carjacked on a rural road 204 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: in Springfield, Oregon. She tells police she and her children 205 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: were out sight seeing, just driving around. Down says as 206 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: the children became sleepy, she turned on an unfamiliar country road. There, 207 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: she was flagged down by a strange man standing in 208 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: the middle of the road. Down says she was pulled 209 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: over and got out. That's when the shaggy haired man 210 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: and demanded her car at gunpoint. Down said she refused, 211 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: and the man pointed the gun into the car and 212 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: shot her children. Downs tells police that she fakes throwing 213 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: her car keys into a field and gets into a 214 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: brief struggle with the shaggy haired man. She manages to 215 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: get away and drive to the emergency room. Okay, I 216 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: know it may sound crazy. Um, let me go to 217 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: doctor Jerry Cross And doctor Jorry do you have children? Yes? 218 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: Have you ever just taken them out driving me too? 219 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: Some nights, you know, after dinner and uh, we've watched 220 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: every single episode of every show that they like, and 221 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: they've done their homework and it's still just you know, 222 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: seven five, especially friends. As at Christmas, we'll go driving 223 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: around for an hour and a half looking at Christmas lights, 224 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: or we'll drive around and end up at the frozen 225 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: custard or the frozen yogurt place, just to change it up. 226 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: So and we've always done that ever since they were little, 227 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, let the windows down and drive around, and 228 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: they love it. We play music. They love that. So 229 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: that does not seem out of the unusual to me, 230 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: doctor Jory, that she's out driving around quote sightseeing, No, 231 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: not at all. And you know, for that rural area, 232 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: like she said, she got lost and then encountered this. Man, 233 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: I mean it all fits up to that point, you know. 234 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: I mean, that's very feasible that that scenario could have 235 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: happened and transpired. So while the driving around sight seeing 236 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: makes sense, somehow fragments of facts start adding up to 237 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: where it doesn't exactly make sense anymore. Take a listen 238 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: again to our friend at k e z IV, this 239 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: is sean choppy and we would have a motive to 240 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: do this, or if it is just some total stranger. 241 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: As the night wore on, though investigators and hospital staff 242 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: were stunned, by down demeanor. She was not hysterical, not crying. 243 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: She even left the hospital to show investigators the location 244 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: of the shooting. He did not take time to point 245 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: the gun and shoot me, obviously, because he would have 246 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: shot me the same way he did the kids. When 247 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: he was swinging in the direction of the keys, firing 248 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: the gun, he hit my arm. Everybody says, you sure 249 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: we're lucky. Well, I don't feel very lucky. I couldn't 250 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: tie my damn shoes for about two months. Okay, just 251 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: let that sink in for a moment. It's like a 252 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: fine wine. You just want to breathe it in, swish 253 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: it around for a moment. I couldn't tie my damn 254 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: shoes for two months. Did I hear that? I did hear? 255 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: Jackie confirms what we did. Hear that her child is dead, 256 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: one's paralyzed, once had a stroke, and she can't tie 257 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: her shoes. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I 258 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: can just go ahead get the arrest warrant right now. 259 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: But there's a pescue little thing called evidence. I don't 260 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: feel lucky. I couldn't tie my shoes for nearly two months. 261 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: I tried to say it again, I just keep saying 262 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: it and saying it and listening. It's almost like when 263 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: Jody Airy is saying, oh Holy night. You just can't 264 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: get past that moment. I can't really even describe what 265 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: it is. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking 266 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: about the cold hearted shootings of three little children, ages eight, seven, 267 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: and three. The seven year old Cheryl Lynn died and 268 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: mommy is complaining she couldn't tie her shoes for too much. Okay, 269 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: right there, Well, we got to investigate mommy. You know 270 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: it's so interesting, isn't it interesting to you, Dan Corsentino, 271 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: that one utterance, one sentence can turn an investigation totally around. Absolutely, 272 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: that was a tipping point in this case as to 273 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: what her articulation was, if you will. At that point 274 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: in time, also, I was deeply troubled by the fact 275 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: that she didn't even cradle her children. There was no 276 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: attempt to show affection. There was a coolness that existed, 277 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: and there would have been at that time with the 278 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: shooting that took place by the stranger in the road, 279 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: not only an effort for my professional opinion, to go 280 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: to her children to hold them to cradle, which in 281 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: term would have had a blood transfer to her garments 282 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: and her clothing. She didn't do any of those things, 283 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: you know. Wendy Patrick, prosecutor, author Red Flags, host of 284 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: Today with Doctor Wendy KCBQ, San Diego. Doctor Wendy, I 285 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: often rail against the fact that women are held to 286 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: a higher standard than men. I mean, I didn't hear 287 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: Leavi Page on any case we've ever covered, say he's 288 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: a divorce I've never heard that, but he said it 289 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: today about this woman. So I gave him a little 290 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: h E double L. But on the other hand, if 291 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: a mother doesn't even try to hold her child or 292 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: comfort her child, it's just been shot. I mean, I 293 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: don't think this is stereotype. There's something wrong with that, Wendy. 294 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: There is something way wrong with that. It is exactly 295 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: the opposite of what you would expect an maternal instinct 296 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: to look for. It is the opposite of what we 297 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: expect every mother to feel is deep love for her 298 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: three children. So to behave in the exact opposite fashion 299 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: is in and of itself highly suspicious. Now, as we know, 300 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: you need more than that, you need evidence. But that 301 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: red flag that's waved is so strong that it vary 302 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: at the very least should draw suspicion onto her. You know, 303 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: Levi rightly points out that if someone's divorced, you think, well, 304 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: maybe there's a motive for the X to come after 305 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: the victim. But if a mother doesn't behave like a mother, 306 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: then you obviously are going to say she may be 307 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: more of a descendant, a suspect than a victim. Man, 308 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: you're not kidding. Let's circle back to our friend tile 309 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: our hunt at crime online, when Mommy complained she couldn't 310 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: tire her she is. Cops get wise and they start 311 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: investigating mommy. Listen. As police began investigating Diane Downs, they 312 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: uncovered her journals filled with details of her affair with 313 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: a married man, Robert Knickerbocker. That man, she wrote, did 314 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: not want children. Prosecutors say that made Downs view her 315 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: children as a burden. Wow, is this Susan Smith all 316 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: over again? I mean, think about it. Susan Smith at 317 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: a rural intersection claims the guy comes up to her 318 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: car carjackcit with her children strapped in the backseat or 319 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: two little boys, then ends up driving it into a 320 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: lake and she makes a very convincing public plea. Now 321 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: you've got this woman, Diane Downs, just twenty seven years old. 322 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: The similarities are incredible. Take a listen to our cut 323 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: seven Inside Edition. Detective Doug Welsh was the original investigator 324 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: on the case. He has concluded that Diane, although consistently pregnant, 325 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: was a disinterested mother. Here was a woman who was 326 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: completely ampathetic about the welfare her kids. She was just 327 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: emotionally flat hand preoccupied with something else where. Once she 328 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: had the kids, you know, there was another story. You know, Well, 329 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: she pleads them like crap, you know, and she didn't 330 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: treat them. She really didn't treat them very good. So 331 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: now we're finding out that this affect towards her children 332 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: existed before she starts the affair with nicker Bocker. What 333 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: is that? Let me go to psychologist doctor Jerry Crawls 334 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: in I heard several issues hot spots that jumped down 335 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: at me during that from Tyler Hunt at Crime Online 336 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: from Inside Edition, that she was perpetually pregnant and that 337 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: she developed a flat affect and uncaring attitude towards her children. 338 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: There's got to be some sort of a mental defect, 339 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: arcassistic and it's all about her. I mean, you know, 340 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: even when she was waiting on trial. Remember, she went 341 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: and got pregnant by somebody on her mail route that 342 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: she didn't even know, so she was pregnant during the trial. 343 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: So it all becomes about her, even to the point 344 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: where she's got a problem. The children are the problem. 345 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: The easiest way to solve it with her personality is 346 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: to kill them. The shoot them, eliminate them. You know, 347 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: it's amazing to me that that was her idea of 348 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: an alternative. But I also hear straight out to you, 349 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: Dean Corsentina Foreimer, police Chief. I hear the theory that 350 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: was also consistent with the Susan Smith murders, that she 351 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: had a new lover and the lover did not want 352 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: to be saddled down with additional children, and therefore she 353 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: had to get rid of them. In this case, this 354 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: new lover, mister Knickerbocker, was the individual who made a 355 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: very clear to that he wanted to have no children 356 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: and have no anchor to any children. So she had 357 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: a choice to make and it was either her lover 358 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: or the kids. And with that she started her plan. 359 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: She started to make a decision on how she was 360 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: going to solve this issue, and the only option that 361 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: she came up with was to eliminate her children. Poor Christie, 362 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: Cheryl and Danny became the victims of the mother's greediness. 363 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: Very tragic situation. Earlier you were hearing from our friends 364 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: at Female Killers and now take a listen to our 365 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: cut number ten. This is Madison Glassman k e Zi 366 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: May nineteen eighty three. Diane Down speeds into an emergency 367 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: room at Mackenzie will lamb At Hospital with the bizarre 368 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: story to tell. She took a dtour off of Marcola 369 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: Road to do some sight seeing when a bushy haired 370 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: stranger fla turned down and shot her and her children. 371 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: A story that was nothing but lies. Diane is being 372 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: a mother and doing what she did. She has a 373 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: special place in bizarre murder cases in Lane County. Doug 374 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: Welch's career was never the same after he was assigned 375 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: to be the lead investigator of the case that same night. 376 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: At the time, he had only been a detective for 377 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: less than three months and had never seen anything like 378 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: this and hasn't since. Nothing of this magnitude where you've 379 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: got her mother shooting her kids. You know, it always 380 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: sticks in everyone's mind. Wendy Patrick when a mother kills 381 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: her children, and we all have the names, for instance, 382 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: Andrea Yates at the tip of our tongues. Why is 383 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: it that we never forget murder moms. Oh, we never 384 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: forget Nancy because it goes contrary to everything that we 385 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: expect from parents in society. It's I mean, a mother's 386 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: bond with her child, as you know, just something that 387 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: is second to none. So to think that a mother 388 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: can actually commit the most unspeakable act against her own 389 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: flesh and blood is something that chilled us to the 390 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: phone and remains with us for a long time, to 391 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: the point, as you mentioned, we even remember the names 392 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: of women that didn't. Yeah, Susan Smith, Andreas Dane Lacy 393 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: goes on and on the names that stick in our minds, 394 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: and the stories, crime stories. With Nancy Grace, we are 395 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: talking about three children riddled with bullets in the back seat. 396 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: Is mommy drives by a quote shaggy haired stranger that 397 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: flags Mommy down in the night on a detour off 398 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: a country road. The facts, seemingly abnormal start to stack 399 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: up until shocked by Mommy's lack of affect towards her children, 400 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: they begin investigating Mommy like Susan Smith. Mommy is arrested. 401 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: Listen to what happens. Doctors took the stand and told 402 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: stories of a woman who showed up to the hospital 403 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: with a dead daughter and two other kids clinging to life, 404 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: yet who shed nary a tear. Jurors were taken to 405 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: the scene of the crime. A model of the car 406 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: was brought in. The blood splatters on the outside of 407 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: the car showing Down shot Shuttle. Outside of the car, 408 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: we saw pictures of this so called spatter. It's drops 409 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: when they took the kids. They took Chris and Share 410 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: out of the driver's side of the car and it's 411 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: blood droplets. The children's bloody clothes were shown. But the 412 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: most dramatic and probably most damning evidence came when Christie Downs, 413 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: now eight years old, took the stand. Down's own daughter 414 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: testified against her. Christie Downs was asked by prosecutor Fred Huge, 415 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: do you know who shot Cheryl? Christie said quietly yes. 416 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: The prosecutor struggled to keep his own composure. Who the 417 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: young girl sobbed? My mom? Well, that is why perhaps 418 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: very often kill witnesses, because they can point the finger 419 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: very accurately in front of a jury straight out to 420 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of red Flags, what do 421 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: you make of what you just heard? That's from our 422 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: friends at k e z I. I can only imagine 423 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: the juror's reaction to seeing that dynamic in the quote room. 424 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: You know there were no cameras allowed in there, but 425 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: you can only picture this young girl, this precious young girl, 426 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: taking the stand and being asked that question. The whole 427 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: trial probably hinged on that testimony and her answering it. Truthfully, 428 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: that had to be one of the most tear jerking 429 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: points of that trial for every single man and woman 430 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: in that jerry box to see her take the stand 431 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: in bravely have to say that Leavi page the case, 432 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: it goes to trial, what happens at trial? Who takes 433 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: the stand other than the children? So Nancy police officers 434 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: testify it. One of the biggest aspects of the prosecution's 435 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: case was that Diane Downs changed her story multiple times. 436 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: She said that one shaggy haired man came out into 437 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: the road, then she said that there were multiple men 438 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: that came out into the road, and at one time 439 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,959 Speaker 1: she was even blaming corrupt police officers for these killings 440 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: for the killing of her daughter, so she changed her 441 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: story multiple times. We also heard about the murder weapon, 442 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: a point twenty two caliber handgun. She said she did 443 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: not own one. However, there was evidence that contradicted that 444 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: they were unable to find the actual murder weapon. They 445 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: found unfired casings in her homes with ex tractor markings 446 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: from a point twenty two caliber handgun, and her ex husband, 447 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: Steve Downs to police she did own a point twenty 448 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: two caliber handgun, as well as Robert Knickerbucker, the man 449 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: that she had an affair with. You know do, doctor 450 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner for the State of Florida. 451 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: Doctor Gallagher, you have handled so many gunshot wound autopsies. 452 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: A twenty two caliber is very often described as a 453 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: woman's gun because it's small. It's a very small easily 454 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: held in a small hand, and consequently the bullets are 455 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: small as well. But they can kill well. They sure 456 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: can Nancy, and the twenty two caliber gun is considered 457 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: to be a woman's gun because their recoil or the 458 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: kickback on it, it's almost negligible, so it's very easy 459 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: to fire, is very easy to aim. The problem is 460 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: that the bullets don't have a lot of impact, so 461 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: it is very easy to survive a gunshot wound of 462 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: the twenty two caliber variety. Then it would be say 463 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: a nine millimeter or a thirty eight a special or 464 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: forty caliber gun. So it's not surprising that the children 465 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: did survive their gunshot wound. You know another thing that 466 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: we heard earlier, le Vi, I think you may have 467 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: reported it is that the blood spatter on the outside 468 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: of the car showed that mommy was outside of the 469 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: car when she shot in. Is that correct? You're correct, Nancy. 470 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: You know it's amazing to me to Dean Corsentina, former 471 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: police chaf what you can tell from ballistics whether the 472 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: shooter was firing, for instance, from the front seat back. 473 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: So this would have to mean that mommy got out 474 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,479 Speaker 1: of the car and had the windows down and started 475 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: her shooting her children from outside the car. Can you 476 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: imagine what those children were imagining at the time mommy 477 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: unloads bullets into the backseat. No, I think the kids 478 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: were just in total shock. I mean, at that age, 479 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: there had to be surprised. There had to be a 480 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: complete emotion that their mother would be harming them in 481 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: this way. The thought process that she is in at 482 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: this point certainly was probably from my experience, she was 483 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: in the state of she had tunnel vision in a sense, 484 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: and she was focusing on trying to solve her problem 485 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: so that she could be with her lover. This was 486 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,239 Speaker 1: her answer, and she found this lonely road to do 487 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: it on, and these poor children once again were victimized. 488 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: I bet I know one thing, Minny Patrick. I bet 489 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: they lover her nothing seen of him but elbows and tailhole. 490 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: Because if he owned a twenty two and these children 491 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: were shot with a twenty two, I bet he was 492 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: ready to point the finger in about thirty seconds flat. 493 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: Oh can you imagine? Yeah, that's the worst nightmare is 494 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: somebody accidentally gets fingered in a crime because somebody steals 495 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: the weapon from you, or take something that belongs to you, 496 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: or facts matchup when there's actually no connection in reality. Yeah, 497 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: you can only imagine what ran through his mind at 498 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: the time, that's for sure. And you're not kidding. So 499 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: leave my page. After all of this evidence and testimony, 500 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: what was the jury's decision? So they convicted her, Nancy 501 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: of murderer and attempted murder, and she was sentenced to 502 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: a wife in prison plus fifty years. So it wasn't 503 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: the shaggy here man after all. Take a listen to 504 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: our friends at Inside Edition that locate murder mom Diane 505 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: Downs behind bars. We interviewed the real Diane Downs in 506 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: the New Jersey prison she now calls home. She contends 507 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: her conviction is wrong. I wouldn't walk in there and 508 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: say this weird person came about an nowhere and thought 509 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: us for no reason and just left. I mean, that's 510 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: not a believable story. I could if I had done it, 511 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: I could have come up with a believable story. It 512 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: really happened. The horrid tale is that Diane had divorced 513 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: her husband and taken on another lover, Robert Knickerbocker, who 514 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: promised to divorce his wife and Mary Diane. The hurdle, 515 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 1: as Diane saw it, was that Robert didn't like or 516 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: wan children. The believer of the courts is that Diane 517 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,439 Speaker 1: took her kids out on a lonely road one night 518 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: and shot them and then herself. She says a man 519 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 1: who stopped her car on the road shot her kids. 520 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: The gun and the man were never found. And you 521 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: can't discount the fact that the little daughter takes a 522 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: stand and tells it. You read Mommy shot me, Diane 523 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: Downs and murder mom in such infamy her story even 524 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: becomes a movie. Take a listen to this. Millions of 525 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: a mar Americans watch Farah Fawcett portray the sociopathic mother 526 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: Diane Downs in the TV mini series Small Sacrifices. It 527 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: is the story of a mother who heard her own children. 528 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: It is a story that has riveted the nation for 529 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: more than six years. In the movie version of the case, 530 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: as in real life, Diane downs ten year old daughter 531 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: was the key witness against her mother. Some cases you 532 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: never forget. Listen to mass and Glassman k z I. 533 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: It was here on this quiet country road near Springfield 534 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: where Diane Downs pulled over shot her three children, killing one. 535 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 1: Thirty six years later, Well says this case will always 536 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: be a part of his life. The first murder case 537 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: you worked. There's there are things that are just burned 538 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: into your brain that you don't tend to forget. Welts 539 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: worked on this case for fifteen months, so a lot 540 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: of us were attached in one way or the other. 541 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: I certainly was probably closer to an obsession in that time, 542 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: Welch's wife, tamrous Is the story pulled her into consuming 543 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: their lives. In the midst of the investigation, Diane really 544 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: became the fifth member of our household. Douglas, as he said, 545 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: very involved, even to the point of being obsessed. That 546 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: obsession fueled by a murderer who was motivated by love, 547 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: and nothing could stand in her way, not even her 548 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: own children. We see that justice has unfall diean down 549 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: still behind bars. Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off good 550 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: Bye Friend.