1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: They will support people in power because they want access 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: to power. 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 2: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm brigitad and this is 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 2: there are no girls on the Internet. As much as 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: I wish I could kind of ignore it, Yes, election 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: season is upon us. We're about one hundred and thirty 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 2: days out from the November election, and as it approaches, 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: I'm actually really wondering whether or not we can expect 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 2: that same kind of empty horse race political coverage that 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 2: doesn't so much inform as it does treat elections as 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 2: a game, not something you know, foundational to our democracy, 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: with big consequences for all of us. It's one of 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: the reasons why I read Popular Information, a newsletter about 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: democracy for people who give a damn, And as all 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: of my election related anxieties are coming to a head, 17 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: I set down Popular Information's founder, jud Legum, about where 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: we're at and where we might be headed. So Popular Information, 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 2: I have to tell you, is one of my favorite newsletters. 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 2: The about page says you are not a spectator and 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 2: democracy is not a game, but so much of what 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: is written about politics treat you that way. 23 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 3: What do you mean by that, I just. 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: Think so much of the coverage of politics is premised 25 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: on the idea that citizens are sort of many political strategists, 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: and you should think about how, in sort of a 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: meadow way, of how your views might influence someone else's 28 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: views and the implications of that, rather than thinking about 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: what are the things that are important to me, what 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: do I believe in? What do I want to see 31 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: the future like, and what's the best path? You know, 32 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: we've abstracted politics so much that I think we've forgotten 33 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: what it's really about at its core. That's that's my 34 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: that's my fundamental belief. 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 3: That's such a good point. 36 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: I agree, But it's so sad, and I think you're 37 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: right that I see that in the way stories are 38 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: reported or covered over and over again, that sometimes when 39 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 2: I read them, I think, like, what are the values here? 40 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 3: Like? 41 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: Like, I do feel that we've sort of lost our 42 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: way a little bit in terms of how we are 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: trying to engage people in these larger stories about our 44 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: democracy and our country and our world and what their 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: role is in this right, Like, I'm just not invested 46 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: in these conversations about democracy and things that are so 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: important in these kind of gamified ways that are like, well, 48 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: this team said that, and so your reactive response should 49 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: be this, Like, I feel like it really minimizes what's 50 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: at stake here. 51 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And I think just for example, like 52 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: one of the big topics in the news is the 53 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: Trump's criminal trial, which has been going on for a 54 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: few weeks now, and so much of the coverage is 55 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: focused on, well, how are his supporters feeling about it, 56 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: how is it impacting the presidential race, and is it 57 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: If it's not impacting the presidential race, maybe it was 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: a mistake to bring the case, but there's very there's 59 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: much less coverage on what is the fundamental conducted issue 60 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: and should that be legal or illegal? And if it's illegal, 61 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: should it be punished. I mean, that's the core question, 62 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: and the politics of it are something that we're gonna 63 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: find out about in November. But we spend a lot 64 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: of the time, like so much of our time between 65 00:03:55,160 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: now and November will be spent just trying to predict 66 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: exactly what's going to happen in November, and most of 67 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: that will just be wrong and wasted time. I mean, 68 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: that's what we do before every election. 69 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 2: So true, I wonder have you ever have you seen 70 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: like polls that indicate that a lot of citizens aren't 71 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: really motivated by things like, oh, protecting democracy or fostering democracy. 72 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: That I wonder if we've sort of got if we're 73 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: sort of like giving people what they want in a 74 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: kind of way that's like, oh, people don't care about 75 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: you know, was this against the law or not? 76 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 3: Or is this threatening democracy or not? 77 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: They care about something else, and so these stories that 78 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: are reported in this particular kind of way are sort 79 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: of giving them that thing that they want, which is like, 80 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: they don't care about things like protecting democracy necessarily, that's 81 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: not a motivating thing for them. 82 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: I think that it is true that sometimes people, and 83 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: I think the polling reflects this, are less concerned about issues, 84 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: whether that's democracy or are precise policy on taxes or 85 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,679 Speaker 1: other important issues than they are on some of these 86 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: more cultural or personal questions. But I also think that 87 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: it's too much of a cop out to just say, well, 88 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: people are only interested in these things, and we're just 89 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: giving people what they want, Because what people are interested 90 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: in and what they think is important is dependent on 91 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: what they're reading and consuming and learning about and how 92 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: they're gaining an understanding of what's important and what's not important. 93 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: So for me, as somebody who who writes and is 94 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: dependent on people thinking they are interested in what I 95 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: am writing about, I am of course interested in what 96 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: people are interested in it and what they think. But 97 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: I'm also equally interested in is there a topic that 98 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: I know people are probably not yet interested in, but 99 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: can I figure out a way to explain it and 100 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: to present it to them in a way which they 101 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: will become interested in it? And I think that, from 102 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: the perspective of the media is an important role that 103 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: gets overlooked too much about the process of shaping what 104 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: is important and what isn't important. Not in a hectori way, 105 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: but can you present a story that people might not 106 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: have been aware of, and if they are aware of it, 107 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: they would be interested in if you tell it in 108 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: a compelling way. 109 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: And I think that you do this in a very 110 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 2: particular kind of way, because there are so many stories 111 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 2: that come across my newsfeed or whatever about wrongdoing like 112 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 2: XYZ person, public figure, a elected official, whatever, has done 113 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: something bad or wrong, and something that you an angle 114 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: that you take that I really appreciate that is okay, Well, 115 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: this was a bad thing, whatever, whatever, But what are 116 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: the let's peel back the layers. What are the corporate 117 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: forces that are supporting this person and are they aligning 118 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: with their stated values or pledges or whatever that are 119 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: out in the world, Like, like, who are actually the 120 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: forces that are propping up this person to do XYZ 121 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: bad thing. That's something that I think that you do 122 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: better than almost anybody out there. And I wonder how 123 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: did you come to sort of seeing stories in this 124 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: way and taking that framing, well. 125 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: For better or for worse. I've been looking through campaign 126 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: finance reports since I was I think eighteen years old. 127 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm forty five now, so I've I've been doing. 128 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 3: It for something that you were into. 129 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: Well, I just want to My first jobs in politics 130 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: was in the research department at the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. 131 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: There were about five or six of us there and 132 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: we had one computer that we shared, but you could 133 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 1: print out, you know. One of the things you would 134 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: do at that time was create a book. And by 135 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: they still talk about books in the research world, but 136 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: they're no longer physical books. But at that time it 137 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: was a physical three whole punch book and you know, 138 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: whatever what you would do is just print out all 139 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: the campaign finance filings for that candidate and their opponent. 140 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: And you know, things have changed quite a bit, but 141 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: the role of corporate money over those decades has become 142 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: more and more important. And I also think that there 143 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: are especially the way in which we've sliced and diced 144 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: some of these congressional districts, and just the way demographs 145 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: have shaken out. There's people who are in districts where 146 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: they're never they're basically never going to lose, they're not competitive. 147 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: There's not that many competitive districts these days. There's not 148 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: that many competitive states these days. In the presidential election. 149 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: But everyone or almost everyone, to one extent or another, 150 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: requires kind of the buy in or relies on the 151 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: buy in from major corporations and other people who do 152 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: have a desire and a need to be viewed as 153 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: taking broadly acceptable social positions on social issues for the 154 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: rest of the world. And so that's a way to 155 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: bring a level or some semblance of accountability to those politicians, 156 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: or it should be. It's not not always, but at 157 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: the very least, I think the first step is understanding, 158 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, yes, there's this congressman Mike Collins, who is 159 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: you know, saying extremely racist things online and you know, 160 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: praising people who are engaged in the ugliest, most disgusting 161 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: and racial stereotypes you could possibly imagine if you were 162 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: trying to come up with, you know, the worst one 163 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: you could, you wouldn't go too far away. But he's 164 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: not just existing in a vacuum. He's backed by these 165 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, major corporations, American Airlines, Delta, all sorts of 166 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: folks who not only would you think reject this, but 167 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: really present themselves on a corporate level as being champions 168 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: of you know, equality and treating people fairly and equally 169 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: and in both their business as far as attracting customers, 170 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: and also they're recruiting, you know, bringing in the very 171 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: best employees, have have a real interest in being viewed 172 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: as somebody who welcomes you know, all sorts of people, 173 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: regardless of their race or anything else. And so yeah, 174 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: you can kind of I think it's useful for at 175 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: least at the start, for people to know what's going on, 176 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: where the money is flowing, and how that assists some 177 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: of these more radical forces that have taken a pretty 178 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: prominent role, you know, in our political system. 179 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: So I got in touch with Judd after a pretty 180 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: upsetting moment earlier this summer. You might remember it. On 181 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 2: the campus of University of Mississippi sometimes called Ole Miss, 182 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: a group of thirty to sixty pro Palestinian student protesters gather. 183 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: The group is multiracial, and a group of counter protesters, 184 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: who are mostly white men, two of whom are wearing red, 185 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 2: white and blue American flag overalls with no shirt, are 186 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: taunting the pro Palestinian students. The whites students encircle a 187 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: black woman. It's journalism student Jayleen R. 188 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: Smith. 189 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: They make monkey noises at her and scratch their under 190 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: arms while chanting like an ape. One calls her Lizzo. 191 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: They shout lock her up. It's heartbreaking, and as a 192 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: black woman who came of age protesting for lefty causes 193 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: like ending the war in Iraq in the heart of 194 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: the Deep South, North Carolina, I was Jayleen, and those 195 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 2: white Southern frat boys taunting and jeering at her, well, 196 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: I knew them too. It's like it's been twenty years 197 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: and nothing has changed. And that video actually harkened back 198 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 2: even further for me to the days of civil rights 199 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: sit ins and bus boycotts across the South. Two male 200 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: students were kicked out of their frat by Delta Data, 201 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: and a lot of people rightly denounce their behavior, but 202 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: not Georgia Congressman Republican Mike Collins. Mike Collins tweeted the 203 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: video of the protesters making monkey noises at Jalen, saying 204 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: ole miss is taken care of business. That business being 205 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: pretty obvious racism toward. 206 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 3: A black woman. 207 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 2: He tweeted that in May, and it is still up today, 208 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: and Collins didn't really even seem that bent out of 209 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: shape when he got pushed back when people called out 210 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 2: the fact that the young men in the video that 211 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: he reposted glorifying their behavior, are being blatantly racist toward 212 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: a black woman, Collins put out kind of a tepid statement, saying, quote, Frankly, 213 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: I did not believe that to be the focal point 214 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: of the video shared at the time, but I recognize 215 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: that there certainly seems to be some potentially inappropriate behavior 216 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: that none of us should see to glorify. 217 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 3: And that was kind of it. 218 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: Collins is not in danger of losing his seat in 219 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 2: Congress anytime soon, and it was like that was that 220 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: you know, little chance of any kind. 221 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 3: Of electoral repercussions. 222 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 2: It kind of felt like the media just moved on 223 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: and didn't know what else they could possibly say about 224 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 2: this incident except jud for popular information. Judd looked into 225 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: what corporations and businesses donate money to Collins's campaign, and 226 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: he found that a lot of them had made these big, 227 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: flashy public pledges not to use their money to fund 228 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: divisive candidates, and a lot of them talked big public, 229 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: flashy games about things like diversity and inclusion. 230 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: So would they be pulling their funding from Congressman Collins? 231 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: Not so much so talking about Collins? 232 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: You know, I have to say, like the videos and 233 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: the imagery coming out of Old Miss, it hit me 234 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: on a really kind of visceral level. Like I was thinking, like, oh, 235 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: we're gonna see these images and history books or something 236 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: like like. That's the level that I felt those those 237 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: images and videos elicited. I don't, but you know, when 238 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: you know all already they're put out by this guy 239 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: who himself has written for like white supremacist media outlets. 240 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: Then Mike Collins is like, oh, oh, Miss is really 241 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: taking care of business. What was the reaction after Collins tweeted. 242 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: This, well, I mean, I guess it depends on which 243 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: in what group. I think that there were some people 244 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: who were online who were certainly outraged by it. You said, 245 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: you said, you you you think that you might see 246 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: these images in a history book. It was almost as 247 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: if we were watching a history books. Like you felt 248 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: like you were watching something from the fifties or something 249 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: like that. Like it's hard to believe that it's this 250 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: is a this is a scene of life in a 251 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: college campus of any sword in twenty twenty four as 252 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: opposed to you know, nineteen forty four. But I think, 253 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: and again this goes back to where we started, the 254 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: discussion of how so much political coverage is driven by 255 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: what might be the implication in a future election. So 256 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: the fact that Mike Collins has a very red seat 257 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: and oftentimes I think doesn't even attract a I mean, 258 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: he is in his first term, but that particular district 259 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: doesn't always even attract a democratic challenger because people don't 260 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: want to waste their time. Uh, then therefore we're not 261 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: really going to spend time scrutinizing. My view is, no, 262 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: this is this is something that's you know, outrageous, and 263 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: let's look into it, and let's look into who this 264 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: guy is and who's backing him, because the implications are 265 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: much greater than one congressional seat. Meaning, if if this becomes, 266 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, an acceptable level of discourse, you know that 267 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: things things full. I don't think things are going to 268 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: go in a good direction from there. I can't imagine 269 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: how that would things would end up going in a 270 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: good direction. So that's that's really what's motivating. That's really 271 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: what's motivating me. But I think the the overall reaction, 272 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, from sort of a media perspective, is relatively muted. 273 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: I would say, I would say it's it's you know, 274 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: relative to what's happening. 275 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm being naive and listeners are going to be like, wow, 276 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: what a Pollyanna. But I was genuinely surprised how it 277 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: does seem like this story kind of petered out, and 278 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 2: I think it is exactly what you're saying. That part 279 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: of it is just like, well, there's no real implications 280 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: for a future election here, so. 281 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: Like what else? 282 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: What else is there that we could possibly talk about? 283 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 2: If that's the case. And I was genuinely surprised to 284 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: see how little traction it got, which is one of 285 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 2: the reasons I'm making this episode because I don't think 286 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: that's appropriate. But yeah, I think it goes back to 287 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 2: what you were saying, how when we have this dynamic 288 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 2: that treats politics and democracy as if it is a game, 289 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 2: and if the stakes are one way, there's not even 290 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: really any point of even engaging on some of these 291 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: issues that really go back to like right and wrong 292 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: and what kind of discourse do we want to have 293 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 2: from our elected officials and what kind of discourse is unacceptable. 294 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: We're not even really having those conversations in a lot 295 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 2: of cases. 296 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the other part of it that 297 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: I think about sometimes is that it's a very shortsighted 298 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: view of the political discourse, Meaning, yeah, there might not 299 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: be implications in Mike College congressional district right now, but 300 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: politics can change pretty rapidly. You know. It wasn't that 301 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: long ago two thousand and eight when all of the 302 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: major Democratic candidates, all of them opposed same sex marriage. 303 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Barack Obama, you know, and you 304 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: almost forget that that happened, and you couldn't imagine it 305 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: happening today, like you couldn't have a Democratic presidential candidate 306 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: who opposed the same sex marriage. People would be like, 307 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: what are what are you talking about? Like this is 308 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: some sort of bizarro land, But it was really, you know, 309 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago that that was not only something that 310 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: could happen, but it was essentially table stakes because people 311 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: thought that anything else was too radical. Not all people, 312 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: but the people who were running for president at that 313 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: time thought it was too radical. So yeah, Mike Collins 314 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: might be able to get away with this today. He 315 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: can pretty much say whatever he wants. But we don't 316 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: know what the future holds, and I don't think that 317 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: that should be an excuse if there is something that's 318 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: worth you know, exploring and unpacking and worth people's attention 319 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: from covering it. So that's that's kind of the I'm 320 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: less concerned about, you know, what are the immediate implications 321 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: of this story, and more about what's important what's not important, 322 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: and let's just start there. And you know, things will 323 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: shake out in ways that are are unpredictable, not always 324 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: in a in a great direction. You know, it'll be 325 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: things go in both directions. We've seen that. We've seen 326 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: that too. I think I think one when Obama was 327 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: was elected in two thousand and eight, there were a 328 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: lot of people saying, you know, the demographics of the 329 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,479 Speaker 1: country are changing, and you know, Republicans are never going 330 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,479 Speaker 1: to be competitive and presidential elections and et cetera, et cetera, 331 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: and you know that's clearly, you know, not the case. 332 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: So it's not that it's not that things are always 333 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: just going to get improved, but things are always changing 334 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: and changing in ways that we don't we can't always predict. 335 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: I think it really behooves us to take a long 336 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 2: view of the landscape. I feel like we're so at 337 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: least for me, I feel like having a very short term, 338 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: narrow view of things is encouraged and just in the 339 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: new cycle that we're in, social media moves so quickly, 340 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 2: and it can really do who of us to step 341 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: back and take a kind of a longer view of 342 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 2: all of this sometimes. 343 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: For sure, for sure, And I you know, honestly, that's 344 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I like writing a newsletter 345 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: as opposed to before when I was editing a blog. 346 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: And it's just because I write one newsletter a day, 347 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: so that means that there's a whole bunch of stories 348 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: that occur during the day. Then I know people will 349 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: probably be interested in, but they'll either already know about 350 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 1: or will sort of just be old news by the 351 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: next morning. So you have to try to pick something. 352 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not exactly long term think as opposed to, 353 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: you know, spending five years reading a book, but it's 354 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: a little bit better. You know that you have to 355 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: think of something that does this have a you know, 356 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: is this still going to be worth thinking about and 357 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,959 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, in the morning. 358 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 4: Uh. 359 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: And I think that's a I appreciate at least having 360 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: that that perspective in that check on myself because I 361 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: think it is it is tempting to think about, well, 362 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: what's going to a people's interest in that moment, and 363 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: that that is what drives a lot of our a 364 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: lot of the discourse. 365 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at our back. 366 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: This is something I feel viscerally because I make this podcast. 367 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: Sometimes there really is this pressure to just be reacting constantly, 368 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: just putting something into the feed that responds to the 369 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: thing that everybody is talking about, you know, just adding 370 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,719 Speaker 2: your take into a sea of however many takes are 371 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 2: already out there. It's tempting, but does it really make 372 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: us any. 373 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 3: Smarter or more informed? 374 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: You know, I think there's got to be a better 375 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 2: way and judge us too. I really appreciate that, you know, 376 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: as somebody who makes a podcast. Our show comes out 377 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: twice a week, and so many of the stories from 378 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 2: on the beginning of the week, I'm like, oh, everybody's 379 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 2: talking about this. By the time I'm ready to put 380 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 2: an episode out about it, it just feels like more chatter, 381 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: like everybody has already got their takes out, And I 382 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: guess I think there's a temptation to add to the 383 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 2: chatter of like, everybody's talking about this, let me do 384 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: an episode about it. But then you don't get to 385 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: give these stories a little bit of breathing room and 386 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 2: be like, well, what's going to be the story that 387 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: really does have longer term implications. It's so easy to 388 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 2: just crank out reactions and content, but it is harder 389 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 2: and I think more valuable to really spend some time 390 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: being like, well, if people have one story that they're 391 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 2: going to pour over today, what story should that be 392 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: and why? Like, I think you're really doing some of 393 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 2: that foundational work of nourishing people via media, which I 394 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 2: think is so important and done less and less these days. 395 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's an interest. It's difficult, but it's to 396 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: try to think about that, like, what are something that 397 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: is not getting a lot of attention that might get 398 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: attention if people just knew about it. But the reality 399 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: is there are so many stories, so many important stories 400 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: that are untold today. Because you've had with you know, 401 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: Google and Facebook and others sweeping up all the local 402 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: advertising revenue, you've had a really hollowing out of local journalism, 403 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: which used to be you know, there might have been 404 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: ten people covering a state house, you know, in Maryland 405 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 1: or wherever from Maryland. So that's what I bring it up. 406 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: But you know, it's a similar story at every state. 407 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: You might have had ten people and now you have one, 408 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: or you might have had fifty people and now you 409 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: have five. And that just means there's so many things 410 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: that are going on that people don't know about. So 411 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: it is important when you can to try to in 412 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: my view, or at least what I try to do, 413 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: is to try to find things that I think are 414 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: flying on to the radar a bit because I think 415 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: more and more that's what's happening and and this, and 416 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: the desire to kind of pile on or it's safer 417 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: to write about you know, it's it's safer to write 418 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: about Trump, for instance, you know, because because everyone's interested 419 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: in it, and there's nothing wrong. I mean, he maybe 420 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: our next president. It's not there's nothing wrong with that, 421 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: and it's appropriate to be interested in who's the next president. 422 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: But you know that there's going to be kind of 423 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: a baseline level of interest. You also know that it 424 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: is going to be difficult to break new ground because 425 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: there's so much that's already been said. So I think 426 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: that there may be more opportunities in down the ballot, 427 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,719 Speaker 1: in localities, in states where really important things that are 428 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: happening that impact people's lives but are not getting that 429 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: same level of attention just because of where we are. 430 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: The dynamics of political media. 431 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 3: Don't even get me started, you know. 432 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: Not that long ago, I was working for an advocacy organization, 433 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: and when Trump is in the White House, we definitely 434 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: leaned on that when we would send emails out to 435 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,719 Speaker 2: our list, because every subject line got to be like, 436 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: what's Trump done? 437 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 4: Now? 438 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:24,479 Speaker 3: Trump is terrible? 439 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 2: Trump is doing this and that and rightly, so, like 440 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: all of that stuff was true, but when Trump left office, 441 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: it was so we had like leaned on that so 442 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 2: hard that it was like we had trouble engaging people 443 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: or getting them interested when we didn't have Trump as 444 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 2: this like singular bad guy figure to use. And it 445 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: kind of made me think, like we really sort of 446 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 2: lost the plot here if we can only talk to 447 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 2: our community, our people when we are pointing to something 448 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: horrible that Trump has done legitimately, so, but like, there's 449 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 2: got to be a better way to engage people politically 450 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 2: than that that like actually speaks to their values or 451 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 2: you know, a shared future we want to see together. 452 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 3: That's not just like you know, pointing to him as 453 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 3: a bad guy. 454 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: It's something that I really think that some of us 455 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,239 Speaker 2: might have used as a crutch for a bit. And 456 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: now we're sort of like, oh, well, the media legacy 457 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: or the media landscape that that has given us is 458 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 2: really not so great. 459 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, And at some point, you know, Trump will go away. 460 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure when that point will be, but at 461 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: some point that will happen. But that doesn't that won't 462 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: be the end of his style of politics. And he 463 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: wasn't the beginning of his style of politics. Either you know, 464 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: we had over many years the development of the Tea Party, 465 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: and one, you know, what Trump does very kind of 466 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: effectively a lot of the time at least is degrade 467 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: confidence and trust in institutions. I mean, that's that's that's 468 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: the whole game ultimately, you know, whether it's saying Barack 469 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: Obama was really born in Africa or saying the election 470 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: was actually stolen or saying all the prosecutors who are 471 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: going after him are corrupt. I mean, it's about undermining institutions. 472 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: But that process did not start with Trump. I mean, 473 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: this is something that has been funded at a very 474 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: high level with the Tea Party and with with other groups. 475 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: And once Trump, you know, kind of exit stage left, 476 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: it will continue. It will continue, and there may be 477 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: people who are who are were even more effective at 478 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: a kind of rallying support around some of these these topics. 479 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: So I do think it is a mistake to present 480 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: the problem as one of a specific personality. Uh and 481 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: what what other thing that I'll just sence I'm on 482 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: a little rant here. One other thing that I'll say 483 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: is I also think it's a problem that what is 484 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:16,479 Speaker 1: now considered a moderate Pundit is actually some of the 485 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: most conservative people on pretty much every issue who don't 486 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: happen to like Trump stylistically and his style of politics. 487 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: So they're anti Trump, which is fine, but politically they 488 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: are not moderate. And if we come out of this, 489 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: if we come out of this in the example is 490 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: you know that Bill Crystal or whoever, you know, all 491 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: these folks who have kind of you know, are very 492 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: or you know that some people become anti Trump and 493 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: then they come back and they're pro Trump again. 494 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 3: But there are a. 495 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: Group of people who are pretty consistently pro Trump. But 496 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: that does not make them moderate in any way. It 497 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: just means that they happen not to like Trump. 498 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 2: It is so true, and it really in me it 499 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: goes back to what we were talking about earlier of 500 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 2: like I don't know when I think about where I 501 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: was politically and the political landscape and like two thousand 502 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 2: and seven, two thousand and eight, some of the people 503 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: that I feel like I'm being told like, oh, well, 504 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: that's a moderate voice. 505 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 4: I like this. 506 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 2: I just can't believe where the ships have fallen, and 507 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 2: like where we are in terms of political discourse in 508 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: this country right now. 509 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 3: It really terrifies me. 510 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: And yeah, I just I don't I when I think 511 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 2: about where we will be in the future, I genuinely 512 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: don't know. 513 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 3: I think it's it's. 514 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: Really wild how some of the most extreme voices and 515 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 2: names out there we kind of are meant to be like, oh, well, 516 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: they're not a Trumper, so they're kind of on the 517 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: right track, and it's like, no, they really aren't. 518 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 3: Like, well, like what has happened to our landscape here? 519 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see how that how 520 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: that shakes out. 521 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 4: Uh. 522 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: You know, we're either five years away or a few 523 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: months away from the from the end of Trump. I 524 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: don't think he'll have another run in him after this 525 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: if he were to lose another time. But you know, 526 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: either way, you know they'll be there'll be a new 527 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: uh dynamic, And to be honest, I'm looking forward to 528 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: it because I think it as somebody you know, I 529 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: mentioned that, you know, I've been sort of involved in 530 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: politics in one way or the other for for most 531 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: of my adult life, and I think that the moment 532 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: we're in now is is definitely one of the most 533 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: exhausting moments because I just feel like the dynamics have 534 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: not changed for so long, Like what what's what's interesting 535 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: in in kind of invigorating is when you get sort 536 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: of new dynamics, new figures on the scene, new issues 537 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: at play, new kinds of debates. But today, you know, 538 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: we're engaged in a lot of the old kinds of debates. 539 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: So it can become a little exhausting, but it doesn't 540 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: make it. Of course, the stakes are still just as important. 541 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: So you kind of sold your own. But if things 542 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: do change one day soon, I won't be too upset about. 543 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 3: It, you and me both. 544 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: More. 545 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 4: After a quick break, let's get right back into it. 546 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 2: Given the kind of reporting that you do, what role 547 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 2: do you see corporate money and corporate funding and corporate 548 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 2: support having in where we are today, Like when it 549 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: comes to Collins, Like what brands and corporate dentities are 550 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: some of some of the folks who are supporting him 551 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 2: right now? 552 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: Well, I think when you when you look at it, 553 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: a lot of his supporters are major corporations UH that 554 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: are based in Georgia, which is not so you have 555 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: folks UH like Delta Delta Airlines. You have folks like 556 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: Coca Cola UH, and then some of the other UH 557 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: national big national groups are who are based elsewhere at 558 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: and T Verizon. UH. One thing I thought was really 559 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: interesting about Coca Cola, and this of course goes back 560 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: to its kind of history and in Georgia specifically, which 561 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: is one of the you know, central UH, places where 562 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement kind of was played out, and 563 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: Coca Cola has always had kind of a forward looking 564 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: perspective on those issues. And I think, really, you know, 565 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: for a whole variety of reasons that's based in Georgia. 566 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: I think it wants to make sure that it could 567 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 1: attract you know, the best black talent, the best talent overall, 568 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: but particularly a lot of the talent are going to 569 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: be black people, and so they've been pretty forward looking, 570 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 1: and they actually in twenty twenty one pledged and said, 571 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: we are not going to give any money to people 572 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: who are making these kind of outrageous comments on racial issues. 573 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: Like that is our pledge. And it fits in with 574 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: a lot of the other stuff they've done. And you 575 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,439 Speaker 1: don't want to I don't want to diminish the fact 576 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: that they probably have done a lot of you know, 577 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: important work in this regard. But the thing that I 578 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: find disturbingly cynical is that Coca Cola and the other 579 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: corporations too never really want to be held accountable or 580 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: follow through on pledges like that. They are they want 581 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: the sort of pr win and they definitely want that reputation, 582 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: but they also want to stay on good terms with 583 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: somebody who is a congressman from their state who they 584 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: may need to get a meeting with, or you know, 585 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: might want to be able to bend a zier a 586 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: bit on an important issue. So you know, that's that's 587 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: where I see a much larger role if corporations are 588 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: really serious about this. I mean, that's the whole thing 589 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: with you know, whether you want to call it ESG 590 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: or DEI or whatever acronym you want to call it 591 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: around corporate social responsibility is there's a lot of criticism 592 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: from the right, but the reality is most of this 593 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: is just talk that many corporations are saying a lot 594 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: of stuff. They have a whole fancy website about, you know, 595 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: what they're going to be doing on climate in twenty 596 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: forty five, but they're not doing anything now, you know, 597 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,720 Speaker 1: and now they're going in the wrong direction. So that's 598 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: I think a very you know, we'll have to see 599 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: how that that how that plays out that there's a 600 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: reason why it's a political battlefield right now is because 601 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: it's important and the right has has come back and 602 00:36:54,880 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: is trying to make it politically unpalatable for corporations take 603 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: any kind of position on political or social issues. 604 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, given all that, like given that, we're 605 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 2: seeing things like DEI and like conclusion efforts, even the mildest, 606 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,959 Speaker 2: the most toothless things being attacked and kind of made 607 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: politically reactive in these ways, Like where do you see 608 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 2: corporations and brands landing? And in some way that doesn't 609 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 2: matter where they land because you know, I have to 610 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 2: tell you I've taken like a tour of the Civil 611 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 2: Rights Museum in Atlanta, which they have an entire Coca 612 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 2: Cola wing, and the person who was giving us the 613 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 2: tour was from Coca Cola and was like very proud 614 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 2: to tell us what a big ally Coca Cola was 615 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 2: in the civil rights movement and how important that economic 616 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 2: economic flexing was to the civil rights movement and all 617 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 2: of that, and like here in twenty twenty four, haaven 618 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 2: then be like, well, we made this pledge, but what 619 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 2: are you. 620 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 3: Going to do? Like it is. It is very disappointing. 621 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,919 Speaker 2: But I guess, stepping back, like, do you think these 622 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 2: brands are going to really. 623 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 3: Be engaged? Is it all just talk? And on some 624 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 3: level like does it matter? 625 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: I think it. I mean, I think again it's the 626 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: short term. In the long term, I think short term, 627 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: there's very little in it for brands right now, and 628 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: that's why you sort of see or retrenching. The most 629 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: dramatic thing we saw happen was after January sixth, when 630 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: you did see a lot of corporations pledge to stop 631 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: donating to the members of Congress that voted against certifying 632 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,959 Speaker 1: the election. But quickly we've also seen most of those 633 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: companies roll those back, or they did it for a 634 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: year or two years, and then they said that was enough, 635 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: and now we're going to donate to those companies again, 636 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: donate to those members of Congress again. Because the reality 637 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 1: is that right now the political environment is pretty it's 638 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: pretty evenly split. You know, maybe it's not completely evenly split, 639 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: but you don't if you want to appeal to everyone, 640 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 1: you know, it's pretty easy to make people upset. But 641 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,800 Speaker 1: I do think that there's a broader trend where people 642 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: are much more conscious in their consumption. Maybe not right 643 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: now about the politics of the companies who are producing 644 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,760 Speaker 1: the products that they're consuming, but people are much more interested, 645 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: for instance, in you know, if they're buying broccoli, like 646 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: where that broccoli came from. They're much more interested today 647 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: than they were ten years ago. They're much more interested 648 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: in how their T shirt was produced. Not everyone, but 649 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: many more people than were produced. But and I think 650 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: that if people are starting to engage in those kinds 651 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: of questions and think more critically about those kind of questions, 652 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: it is a natural step and certainly a step that 653 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: some people, although maybe not a critical massive people are 654 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: taking to think about what role is this company playing 655 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 1: in the political issues that I care about? How are 656 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:23,720 Speaker 1: they using their influence? Because there is a path where 657 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: the companies sort of take a step back and say 658 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: we're not going to do anything. You know, we're not 659 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: going to donate the politicians, We're not going to engage 660 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 1: in lobbying. We're just going to focus on making our 661 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: widgets and selling our widgets, and we'll let other people 662 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: worry about politics. That's not really where they are right now. 663 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: Where most companies are right now is they will support 664 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: people in power because they want access to power. And 665 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: I do think that there is a point in the 666 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,680 Speaker 1: foreseeable future when a critical massive consumer say that that 667 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: that is not good enough and that I'm going to 668 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: shift my consumption to corporations that either stay out of 669 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: it or corporations that more reflect my values. So I 670 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 1: do think that this process of, at least at the beginning, 671 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of maybe just exposing the role that corporations play 672 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: in politics, you know, may may lead somewhere. 673 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 4: Uh. 674 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: Maybe I won't be doing this work long enough to 675 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: see it, but it might. It's not hard to imagine 676 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: a world where you know, people are paying much closer 677 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: attention to these kinds of issues. 678 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 2: Well to that end, you know, in your in your 679 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 2: newsletter piece about what happened at Old Miss, I noticed that, 680 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 2: you know, you're like, oh, popular Information reached out to 681 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 2: H and T, Verizon Coke didn't hear back. 682 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 3: How much of this worked for you is like being. 683 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 2: Willing to ask the ask the company an annoying question 684 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 2: and then being like, I'm We're not going to answer that, 685 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 2: Like how much of this is just being like, well, yes, 686 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 2: said x y Z publicly, What's what's the deal. 687 00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 3: Where do you stand now? 688 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: A lot of time doing that, and it is it is, 689 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 1: it is sometimes frustrating, and you don't always get an answer, 690 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: or if you do get an answer, it's it's sometimes 691 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: it's it's no comment. And I do think that people 692 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: are much less likely. People are much less likely to 693 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: weigh in now than they even were in twenty twenty one, 694 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: because there's been a concerted effort to try to present 695 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: this idea that corporations have gone woke and people and 696 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,959 Speaker 1: they're guarding against the other side of it. So yeah, 697 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: that is a big part of it. But I also 698 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,919 Speaker 1: think it's you know, important work. I mean, we were 699 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: the first people in the newsletter, was the first place 700 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: to report that any companies had decided to not to 701 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: stop donating to the members of Congress who who voted 702 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: not to certify on January sixth, and it's because you know, 703 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: we sent out the you know, inquiries to one hundred 704 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: and seventy seven companies, I think the first for the 705 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: first issue, and we heard back from four of them. 706 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: But those that four turned out to be you know, 707 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 1: fairly significant and helped create a dynamic where other companies 708 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: filed suit. So I think it's important to ask those questions, 709 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: and I think sometimes even when you don't get an answer, 710 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: it's important to know. It's important for the companies to 711 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: know that it's getting written about, and that it's going 712 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: to be and it's going to be discussed and talked about. 713 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:39,399 Speaker 1: And I know that they companies do pay attention to this, 714 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: to this kind of reporting, and that's one of the 715 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: reasons why I stick with it. The other reason is 716 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: I know that you know, a lot of readers, you know, 717 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: appreciate it, and a lot of readers are looking for that, 718 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, information. It's probably not the first thing on 719 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 1: the on the top of everyone's mind when they're you know, 720 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: in the grocery store, whatever they're doing, going about their day. 721 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,879 Speaker 1: You know, people have you have to remind yourself when 722 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 1: you're working in a political space or the media space 723 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: that people have other things going on. They've got jobs 724 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: and lives and kids and all sorts of responsibilities, and 725 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: so they're not always going to be focused on this stuff. 726 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: But you know, for the people that are or or 727 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: or might be, you know, establishing this factual record I 728 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: think is worth some time. 729 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 2: I think popular information has completely changed the culture around 730 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 2: how we think about who is funding what and our 731 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 2: role in it and all of that. So I completely agree, 732 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,439 Speaker 2: And I guess one of my last questions is, first, 733 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 2: folks who are listening, who are like, I'm so checked 734 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 2: out on this, I don't even know, Like, how do 735 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 2: you stay engaged and not just sit out all of 736 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 2: this set out your democracy, especially when things are so 737 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 2: exhausting and everything seems so exhausting to keep up with. 738 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's a tough question because I think 739 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: it is difficult enough to kind of keep your own 740 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,399 Speaker 1: life on track and your own life in order. Sort 741 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: of taking in all these external things that might not 742 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,160 Speaker 1: be happening in your front door is difficult, and I 743 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: think it's actually okay sometimes. I know this is maybe 744 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: like anathema to people who work in the political space, 745 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: but it's okay sometimes to like check out and just 746 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 1: focus on yourself. But I do think that the progress 747 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: in politics or things that are more can give you 748 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: some hope don't usually come in the form of this 749 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:01,320 Speaker 1: one sort of dramatic event where everything is fixed to 750 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,719 Speaker 1: get and everything is good to get. That's not the 751 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 1: way that it works. But I think that things that 752 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: can impact even one person's life, and or just having 753 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 1: someone feel like they're more understood or more valued. That 754 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: can be really important. And that's what I, you know, 755 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: try to try to focus on. And so I think 756 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: if you're feeling like what you're doing doesn't matter or 757 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,640 Speaker 1: it's just pointless to be engaged, you know, your contribution 758 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: might just be explaining the importance of you know, let's say, 759 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: expanding the child tax credit to one person and getting 760 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: them to you know, maybe just understand, maybe not even 761 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: change their mind, but maybe just understand that issue and 762 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: why a lot of people rely on it and why 763 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: we have you know, a lot of kids who are 764 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,359 Speaker 1: still living in poverty in the United States. That could 765 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,799 Speaker 1: be I think that's that's like a contribution that you 766 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 1: can feel okay about. You know, it doesn't have to 767 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,759 Speaker 1: be that you know, you've you've passed a major piece 768 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: of legislation, because that's that's something that that anyone really 769 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 1: could do these days. So so that's that's I think 770 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,400 Speaker 1: when I'm thinking clearly, I think that's the kind of 771 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: thing that I try to focus on. And I think 772 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: probably the right the better attitude. 773 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 4: H H. 774 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech I 775 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 2: just want to say Hi. You can read just a 776 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,240 Speaker 2: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts 777 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,680 Speaker 2: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No 778 00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,839 Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet was created by me for j Todd. 779 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Stricklet 780 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 2: as our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and 781 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,200 Speaker 2: sound engineered. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 782 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 2: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and. 783 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 4: Review us on Apple Podcasts. 784 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 785 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.