Speaker 1: Dave, we have good news.
Speaker 2: Listen to this Bloomberg headline from the weekend. UK's unpopular
Speaker 2: market is suddenly the place to be.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: I mean, finally, finally, some good news out of Britain.
Speaker 4: You know, never mind the economy, never mind listings going elsewhere,
Speaker 4: never mind political chaos.
Speaker 3: Turns out Britain's the place to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's a positive spin.
Speaker 2: I mean the negative spin would be well, we couldn't
Speaker 2: have fallen much further at the bottom, but we do
Speaker 2: have strategist from Barclay's, HSBC, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan
Speaker 2: all saying positive things about the UK market.
Speaker 1: I'm Francis Laqua and I'm David Merritt. Welcome to In the.
Speaker 2: City, Bloomberg's podcast connecting you to the conversations at the
Speaker 2: heart of the City of London.
Speaker 4: This week we speak with London Stock Exchange Chief Executive
Speaker 4: Julia Hoggart for a deep look at the UK equity market.
Speaker 2: And we get her take on whether, after all the
Speaker 2: negative headlines, things are finally starting to look up. Julia Hoggett,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining. Yes, there has been
Speaker 2: so much negative headlines about the UK and what it
Speaker 2: means for the LC and also tracting investments. Were we
Speaker 2: finally turning a corner?
Speaker 5: I actually think we've been turning a corner in real
Speaker 5: life for quite a long time. I think it always
Speaker 5: takes time for fact, narrative, and indeed perception to all
Speaker 5: catch up with one another. But I think there is
Speaker 5: a great deal of reason to be hugely optimistic.
Speaker 1: So what are the selling points?
Speaker 6: So I think if you.
Speaker 5: Take a look at London, it already is a dominant
Speaker 5: capital raising center, and it has a lot of strengths
Speaker 5: which are innate to London by any measure, with the
Speaker 5: largest capital raising venue in Europe, and we have an
Speaker 5: incredibly international investor base who understand both domestic and international stories.
Speaker 5: We have a huge amount of capital that tracks the
Speaker 5: foot seat and tracks the assets which are within it,
Speaker 5: and therefore there is a structural supporting bid behind it.
Speaker 5: It is one of the largest pools of dedicated AUM.
Speaker 6: In Europe, if not the largest.
Speaker 5: And one of the other facets is that London actually
Speaker 5: enables company of a certain scale to get the visibility
Speaker 5: and the attention that they need. The US is dominated
Speaker 5: by some very large companies, but every company has to
Speaker 5: start somewhere and grow and have the capacity to continue
Speaker 5: to grow and get focused as a consequence of being
Speaker 5: on that journey. The other thing I would say, which
Speaker 5: I think is really important. I say this a lot.
Speaker 5: I think I said it to you before, is that
Speaker 5: a listing is for life, not just for Christmas. There's
Speaker 5: an awful lot of focus on that initial IPO, and
Speaker 5: I understand why there is, But actually one of London's
Speaker 5: strength is its ability to have phenomenal amounts of follow
Speaker 5: on capital raising and that ongoing structural support for companies
Speaker 5: once they come to market, which enables them not just
Speaker 5: to have an initial idea, but actually to be able
Speaker 5: to continue to finance their growth as they move through
Speaker 5: the gears of their development.
Speaker 4: Something we tracked extensively on this podcast has been the
Speaker 4: kind of the relative strength of the London market versus
Speaker 4: European and global competitors as well. And there is this
Speaker 4: big moment when the Paris Exchange over to London and
Speaker 4: it felt like this kind of tipping point of London's dominance.
Speaker 4: And now we're approaching party again, maybe London's going to
Speaker 4: edge a bit further. Is that really important to you?
Speaker 6: As the chief preceptive may I be blunt with you.
Speaker 6: I understand that I know that they were Bloomberg's numbers
Speaker 6: to be reported.
Speaker 5: I don't actually recognize those numbers in terms of the
Speaker 5: differential between the size of London and the size of Paris,
Speaker 5: because some of those in its numbers disregard certain elements
Speaker 5: of what is listed in London. And so we are
Speaker 5: still the largest global center by any measure, and I.
Speaker 6: Think it's about two trillion bigger.
Speaker 5: So I think the narrative of Paris overtaking London is
Speaker 5: not something I actually factually recognized.
Speaker 3: Okay, so great, So there's a different way of calculating it. Fine.
Speaker 4: And yet obviously London's relative size has shrunk compared to
Speaker 4: its biggest European competitor in the last few years, hasn't it.
Speaker 4: I mean that trend has been real. Whether or not
Speaker 4: you factor in different I think you.
Speaker 6: Yes, So you will see relatively.
Speaker 5: You see the growth of certain stocks on certain markets
Speaker 5: that have gone up, the.
Speaker 3: Luxury stocks in Europe basically, and.
Speaker 6: Some of that delta shift.
Speaker 5: But our numbers would say that London has got a
Speaker 5: form eight trillion pounds of market cap and Paris it's
Speaker 5: got two point nine trillion market cap, so the delta
Speaker 5: is still pretty significant. The other thing I'd say is
Speaker 5: that London is the only European venue that is in
Speaker 5: the top ten of global exchanges. So I use this
Speaker 5: phrase repeatedly, but by any measure, we are the largest
Speaker 5: market in Europe, and we want to be, and we
Speaker 5: want to continue to be, and we should measure ourselves
Speaker 5: as being. We've actually raised more than the next two
Speaker 5: European venues combined this year so far, year to date,
Speaker 5: and so the measure actually isn't quite the story that's
Speaker 5: been told. My focus is on continuing to grow the
Speaker 5: UK market and addressing some of the things that I
Speaker 5: think we have needed to address for many years in
Speaker 5: terms of the amount of available risk capital is directed
Speaker 5: to our market. So, my viewers, we're in a very
Speaker 5: strong position, but there's a great deal of upside from
Speaker 5: here with a regular, true reform agenda that's going on.
Speaker 2: But Julie, how much of a blow was it for
Speaker 2: London not to get the r IPO.
Speaker 6: It was big.
Speaker 5: I've been very honest about that. I've used the phrase
Speaker 5: I think on your show that I want us to
Speaker 5: be young, scrappy and hungary. We should fight for every
Speaker 5: company that we believe we can provide great financing too,
Speaker 5: and particularly great homegrown UK companies that are world leaders
Speaker 5: are in what they do. And I'm not going to
Speaker 5: make any bones about wanting to fight for those listenings.
Speaker 6: There are hosts of reasons why on went to the US.
Speaker 5: I fervently believe that there's still the potential for to
Speaker 5: come to the UK as well. I also believe they
Speaker 5: got in the US what they would have got in
Speaker 5: Europe or got in the UK. So it is a blow,
Speaker 5: but it's that's no reason, not right, and it's no reason.
Speaker 5: I mean, certainly the last thing we should be doing
Speaker 5: is saying that it's not.
Speaker 1: But is there a perception problem?
Speaker 2: So if you have a big IPO that was also
Speaker 2: meant to kick starts a lot of you know, other
Speaker 2: vcs potentially looking the list and they move elsewhere and
Speaker 2: this was a UK company, does it actually, you know,
Speaker 2: nudge other companies to also list elsewhere And does it
Speaker 2: mean that you need to fight harder in trying to
Speaker 2: gain that business.
Speaker 6: I think the battle for listings of.
Speaker 5: Significant companies or any company is pretty aggressive nowadays, and
Speaker 5: so you have to fight for every listing, and that
Speaker 5: would be the case whether you're Nasdat, whether you're Nicely,
Speaker 5: whether you're London, whether you're Paris with your amster, so
Speaker 5: that that is the nature of the environment. I actually
Speaker 5: think the CEO is I talk to understand the specific circumstances,
Speaker 5: understand the specific dynamics, and also recognize that there are
Speaker 5: upsides to being in London.
Speaker 6: They're upsides to being a New York but there are
Speaker 6: downsides to being New.
Speaker 5: York as well, so they get they get all of that,
Speaker 5: and so it's much more nuanced than that, even though
Speaker 5: I understand the headline that says this therefore means that,
Speaker 5: but actually in individual conversations with companies, I don't think
Speaker 5: it's quite as deep.
Speaker 6: It's quite like that.
Speaker 4: You mentioned too about the regulatory changes coming down the pipe.
Speaker 4: And one of the things again we talked about a
Speaker 4: lot on this podcast is about the appetite for risk
Speaker 4: amongst UK, particularly in institutional investors, and everyone seems to
Speaker 4: acknowledge the need for reform here and on how to
Speaker 4: encourage the big pools of capital to take a bit
Speaker 4: more risk. Where are we on that kind of journey
Speaker 4: and with the regulations, I mean There's been a lot
Speaker 4: written and said about it, but are we actually seeing
Speaker 4: any behavioral change by the big UK institutional investors.
Speaker 5: So I have this phrase five fingers on the glove,
Speaker 5: which is all the component pieces that we as the
Speaker 5: capital markets industry transkforce think need to evolve in order
Speaker 5: to really build on the capital markets we have today
Speaker 5: into one that's even more powerful going forward. And the
Speaker 5: third finger of that five fingers is the availability for
Speaker 5: US capital. So we have the second largest single pool
Speaker 5: of investable investable capital anywhere in the world in the UK,
Speaker 5: and our pension insurance money we have as a content
Speaker 5: coins of various regulatory changes over the years caused a
Speaker 5: great deal of that to be taken out of the
Speaker 5: market and put into fixed income or into other assets,
Speaker 5: and we have also created a narrative around de risking
Speaker 5: those portfolios rather than recognizing, particularly for DC pension funds,
Speaker 5: that it's the largest single investment plot that people have
Speaker 5: in their lives and it needs to be invested in
Speaker 5: risk capital in order to have the capacity to grow
Speaker 5: to the scale that it needs to give people the
Speaker 5: life that they want in retirement. Now that is a
Speaker 5: conversation that is now much more prevalent both sides of
Speaker 5: the aisle from a political point of view, across the city,
Speaker 5: across the regulatory environment as well. Regulated is saying a
Speaker 5: lot of the same things, and we are starting to
Speaker 5: really focus on what are those changes that are necessary,
Speaker 5: particularly in our pension market, to would agree in our
Speaker 5: insurance market, and I think increasingly actually in our retail
Speaker 5: savings market to maximize people's ability to direct risk capital,
Speaker 5: to be honest, into the UK and into the UK
Speaker 5: listed market. With some mansion house reforms announced or already
Speaker 5: there was the mansion House Compact, and I would expect
Speaker 5: to see further reform in the autumn statement coming up.
Speaker 5: And when you talk to both sides of the aisle,
Speaker 5: there's consensus on the need to do this.
Speaker 4: And this is happening around the world as well, as
Speaker 4: I understand. We've looked at the Canadian system, is that
Speaker 4: something that we want to kind of import some of
Speaker 4: some of those regulations.
Speaker 5: Fundamentally, the more companies that you meet and great founders
Speaker 5: that you meet in the UK, you realize the amazing
Speaker 5: number of companies we have here and we actually create
Speaker 5: more unitcorns in the UK than anywhere outside the US.
Speaker 5: China and India. The challenge we have is that from
Speaker 5: A B and C rounds onwards, it's not UK capital
Speaker 5: that's financing those companies. So the punch of funds in
Speaker 5: Canada or Australia, or the VC funds on the West
Speaker 5: coast of the US or setting up in London to
Speaker 5: buy stakes.
Speaker 6: In UK companies.
Speaker 5: In twenty twenty one, one Canadian pension fund invested more
Speaker 5: in a single ticket in a UK private company than
Speaker 5: the entirety of the UK punch funds invested in UK
Speaker 5: private companies in the same year. Now, that illustrates the
Speaker 5: fact that it's not the absence of high quality assets.
Speaker 5: It's the fact that we as an investing market have
Speaker 5: not been focused on what's actually been under our noses.
Speaker 5: And some of that has a regulatory focus on liquidity,
Speaker 5: some of it's been a regulatory focus on cost rather
Speaker 5: than return, and some of it has been sort of
Speaker 5: bits of history. But this is a pivot to say, actually,
Speaker 5: we need to have a mindset of investing across the
Speaker 5: private to public space in the UK to back those
Speaker 5: great companies that we are actually creating rapidly. But then
Speaker 5: we're financing with capital from over seats, But does.
Speaker 2: It really matter where the capital's coming from. So is
Speaker 2: it a problem of scale that you have a British
Speaker 2: company or a British unicorn it gets money from outside investors,
Speaker 2: but it's no longer a UK company, or that they
Speaker 2: don't scale it quick enough like we've seen in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 5: So I think the challenge is that ultimately it does
Speaker 5: matter where a company list, because ultimately where a company
Speaker 5: list creates its lockers, it creates its minded management, it
Speaker 5: creates its headquarters. If companies fundamentally have a huge amount
Speaker 5: of capital that they're taking from overseas, and there is
Speaker 5: an exible push from those vcs or whatever to say, well,
Speaker 5: I'm familiar with NASDAQA, I'm familiar with Singapore, go over there.
Speaker 5: Then the indexation pull for those companies to relocate ultimately
Speaker 5: in order to get the full benefit of access to
Speaker 5: liquidity in that market does run the risk that minded
Speaker 5: management headquarters ip and indeed the high quality jobs actually
Speaker 5: leave the country. And so we do a great job
Speaker 5: in this country of starting great companies getting them to
Speaker 5: a certain scale, but what we actually need to do
Speaker 5: is enable them men to scale from here and have
Speaker 5: access capital it's not saying we don't have international capital,
Speaker 5: is that we actually need to have a reasonable balance
Speaker 5: of our own capital invest in it as well.
Speaker 2: The government has taken steps to make sure that pension
Speaker 2: funds at least put a certain part of their pension
Speaker 2: pot in growth companies.
Speaker 1: Is it enough.
Speaker 2: Do you have a figure of how much is needed
Speaker 2: to make a real difference.
Speaker 5: I think the five percent of the mansion how to
Speaker 5: compact will make aim shift. But I do think we
Speaker 5: need to be focusing on looking at the structure of
Speaker 5: our pension insurance markets more broadly in our investing markets.
Speaker 5: And one of the challenges we've had in the UK,
Speaker 5: which is particular to the UK, is all the regulatory
Speaker 5: changes that closed our defined benefit schemes and then turn
Speaker 5: them into very very matched asset portfolios with a lot
Speaker 5: of fixed income in them. Meant that as a total
Speaker 5: pot of pension assets, we have less that's directed towards
Speaker 5: equity and the risk capital than you would have if
Speaker 5: you had you didn't have as much in runoff basically,
Speaker 5: and so that's one of the challenges that we need
Speaker 5: to address.
Speaker 6: But the other.
Speaker 5: Challenge is that actually we need to think about consolidating
Speaker 5: we have a very very large number of very small
Speaker 5: DC schemes in the UK that are then regulated basically on.
Speaker 6: The lowest price rather non best return.
Speaker 5: And if you want to diversified portfolio of assets, you
Speaker 5: need to get to a certain scale, particularly if you
Speaker 5: want to invest in private companies, because an awful lot
Speaker 5: of the value.
Speaker 6: Proposition is now being created in the private.
Speaker 5: Company and fundamentally it is de democratizing the market and
Speaker 5: the access for pension savers if they can't get access
Speaker 5: to those assets, because it just means a smaller and
Speaker 5: smaller number of people are benefiting in a greater and
Speaker 5: greater amount of the upside. But you need some structural
Speaker 5: changes in the way your pension funds are organized in
Speaker 5: order to be able to access and take advantage of
Speaker 5: those pools.
Speaker 4: One of the things you've said recently is around the
Speaker 4: issue of CEO pay in the UK, and obviously chief
Speaker 4: executives at fort two hundred companies earned significantly less across
Speaker 4: the board, mostly than in the US than their equivalents.
Speaker 4: How necessary is that do you think to kind of
Speaker 4: raise the standards of performance of companies in Britain.
Speaker 5: I understand entirely the issues around pay equity, and I
Speaker 5: understand particularly the challenges in terms of cost some living
Speaker 5: that it exists right now. But the phrase that we
Speaker 5: often use and seem it is we want the UK
Speaker 5: to create globally consequential companies. Now, to be a globally
Speaker 5: consequential company, you need to be running from London or
Speaker 5: from the UK into markets in the US, in Asia,
Speaker 5: et cetera. If in order to break into that particular market,
Speaker 5: you need to get the expert in that market to
Speaker 5: come and work for you, be that say in the
Speaker 5: US or Asia, and right now, because of the strictures
Speaker 5: that exist in the UK market, that person who would
Speaker 5: be game changing in terms of unlocking that value for
Speaker 5: the UK company unlocking that market would have to be
Speaker 5: paid more than the CEO and wouldn't be able to
Speaker 5: have any performance related pay on top of what they
Speaker 5: started at and is probably still taking a pay cup
Speaker 5: from what they'd be paid to work for an Asian
Speaker 5: company or a US company or even sometimes a European company.
Speaker 5: Then we've got to have a conscious understanding of the
Speaker 5: potential impact that has on the ability to create globally
Speaker 5: consequential companies. And so it's really about having a rounded
Speaker 5: conversation about what we want to be and how where
Speaker 5: we want to come out in the UK. And to me,
Speaker 5: it's about how we create these consequential companies that we
Speaker 5: have high quality, high paying jobs in the UK and
Speaker 5: we're driving in growth and investing in growth that actually
Speaker 5: produces a better quality of living for people, producers, taxes
Speaker 5: that pay for the NHS and everything else.
Speaker 6: It is a virtuous.
Speaker 5: Circle if you start investing in yourself, and that's the
Speaker 5: conversation that has sort of been missing in the paid conversation.
Speaker 5: As one of the other things that we did is
Speaker 5: we actually objectively we commission Willis Towns Watson. It's on
Speaker 5: the semate web see it to do a side by
Speaker 5: side analysis of the remuneration statements that the proxies were
Speaker 5: voting on for the UK, for Europe and the US.
Speaker 5: Now roughly speaking, in the US they say we will
Speaker 5: reward exceptional.
Speaker 6: Performance and we'll take global benchmarking into account.
Speaker 5: So if you're kind of looking at Maderna and Pfizer
Speaker 5: and GSK and as Zelling for or whatever, you're going
Speaker 5: to be looking at what those peers and equivalent companies
Speaker 5: are being paid to get the highest quality staff that
Speaker 5: you want to lead those companies. In Europe it says
Speaker 5: will reward acceptal performance, and in certain statements in the
Speaker 5: UK it says we will explicitly disregard global benchmarkt And
Speaker 5: so what we've actually done is we've hamstrung ourselves from
Speaker 5: creating a level playing.
Speaker 6: Field with which compete with the rest of the world.
Speaker 6: And it doesn't mean that's.
Speaker 5: Appropriate for every company, because if you're a purely domestic company,
Speaker 5: then obviously your price points are going to be entily domestic.
Speaker 5: But if you're trying to create a globally consequential company
Speaker 5: from the UK, which, to be honest, the history of
Speaker 5: US as a capital market and as as economy is
Speaker 5: of doing, then we need to make sure that we've
Speaker 5: understood the consequences if we have a different approach to
Speaker 5: the approach in Europe and the US will.
Speaker 2: Labor change anything if they come into power.
Speaker 1: How much focus do you think they'll have on the
Speaker 1: city of London.
Speaker 2: Have they reached out to talk about certain propositions.
Speaker 5: The one thing that I've observed over the last year
Speaker 5: and a half, particularly with the capital markets industry transforce,
Speaker 5: is a massive amount of consensus across both the City
Speaker 5: and on both sides of the Aisle about the need
Speaker 5: for this reform, and I think there is pretty clear
Speaker 5: consensus parties that this needs to happen. Fundamentally, if you
Speaker 5: slim it down, the UK has gradually over the last
Speaker 5: twenty thirty years stopped investing in itself and the City
Speaker 5: has done a great job of driving the UK's place
Speaker 5: as a global financial center, but it has sometimes not
Speaker 5: focused as much on how it directs capital into the
Speaker 5: UK economy to drive growth and fundamentally, whether you're the
Speaker 5: Tory Party or the Labor Party, that objective matters enormustry.
Speaker 5: I've never seen a level of consensus around this agenda.
Speaker 4: Well, I look at your website, Judy, the big banner
Speaker 4: is about seizing the green growth opportunity. And when you
Speaker 4: see what the rhetoric coming up for the government at
Speaker 4: the moment now and the pushback on net serial, how
Speaker 4: optimistic are you as London as a center for green
Speaker 4: finance and how important will it be to the mix
Speaker 4: of the stocks that we have dominating the London Stock
Speaker 4: Exchange in the years to come.
Speaker 5: So the UK actually has kind of world leading structures
Speaker 5: to support financing and the understanding of the greening of
Speaker 5: the economy, and I fervently believe that the just transition
Speaker 5: to net zero is the stewardship challenge of our generation,
Speaker 5: and there is a huge amount of opportunity there in
Speaker 5: terms of the transition of economic activity and the new
Speaker 5: opportunities that will come from it. Notwithstanding what's happened over
Speaker 5: the course of the last kind of a few weeks,
Speaker 5: the commitment to that underlying regulatory structure is completely unchanged,
Speaker 5: and therefore I think London could continue to be a
Speaker 5: global leader in Greek finance.
Speaker 2: When you look at the city of London and how
Speaker 2: it's changed double last fifteen to twenty years. I know
Speaker 2: you've spoken in the past about divers and inclusion, you know,
Speaker 2: being as important as climate change, Like what are we
Speaker 2: doing better than you thought we would? And what are
Speaker 2: we doing worse.
Speaker 5: On climate change or on diversitydity both? So I actually
Speaker 5: think we've got some We've got a lot of momentum
Speaker 5: on the financing of the transition to net zero. So
Speaker 5: I mean look as an exchange as an example, we're
Speaker 5: one of the we're certainly the only exchange in Europe
Speaker 5: that has got the green and marked for both listed
Speaker 5: equities and funds. We have a huge astaendible bond market
Speaker 5: that's growing and a very significant rate year on year,
Speaker 5: and we have the world's first volunteer carbon market financing market,
Speaker 5: all of which are up and running and operating out
Speaker 5: of London, and so from that point of view, that
Speaker 5: infrastructure ecosystem is there. So if you told me that
Speaker 5: this is where the sustainable bond market would be in
Speaker 5: sort of twenty ten eleven twelve, when I was setting
Speaker 5: up one of the first green bond businesses in the
Speaker 5: streets in the city in London, I don't think i'd
Speaker 5: have believed you. In terms of how far and how
Speaker 5: fast it's become embedded into the total man of capital
Speaker 5: is raised. And now that it's moving into an understanding
Speaker 5: of equities, into the fund market and into the vulune
Speaker 5: of carbon market, then I think there's a great deal
Speaker 5: to be optimistic about there. And I think that the
Speaker 5: UK has been a leader in focusing on, to be honest,
Speaker 5: the quite boring nuts and bolts that make markets function
Speaker 5: in service of that objective. From a diversity and inclusion
Speaker 5: point of view, I think we are making a lot
Speaker 5: of progress, but I think the most important thing is
Speaker 5: to recognize and understand the situation and then make commitments
Speaker 5: to make positive change. So the UK is leading already
Speaker 5: actually from a global policy, I think we're probably only
Speaker 5: behind France in terms of gender representation on list of
Speaker 5: company boards. We still need to work on certain parts
Speaker 5: of the financial market ecosystem. It's fair to say that
Speaker 5: VCP and asset management don't come out as well as banking,
Speaker 5: investment banking and the places like the Exchange in terms
Speaker 5: of the gender parity. And there is a huge amount
Speaker 5: we still need to do for social mobility and inclusion.
Speaker 5: But I think we are We are continuing year on
Speaker 5: year on year to make progress.
Speaker 4: That although I don't have the number of fun of me,
Speaker 4: but the amount of female chief executives, and for two
Speaker 4: hundred companies, it's a pretty low number, isn't it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, for forty one hunderd we do well when we
Speaker 5: get to ten and we need to and I suspect
Speaker 5: it's pretty similar in most places around the world. So
Speaker 5: the next the next challenge, once you've cracked the diversity
Speaker 5: of board level is to crack diversity at the executive level,
Speaker 5: and that is increasingly where the focus is, and fundamentally
Speaker 5: you need to build that bench of executives with the
Speaker 5: experience to be able to step up into the C
Speaker 5: suite and into the CEO. Seed and I think it
Speaker 5: is making progress and we are kind of very conscious
Speaker 5: of that as a market across both the UK, I think,
Speaker 5: and Europe.
Speaker 2: In the US, Julia, thank you so much for joining
Speaker 2: us today.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: So thanks for listening to this week's in the City.
Speaker 2: We'll be back next week.
Speaker 4: But in the meantime, if you like our show, please
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Speaker 4: a rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help people
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Speaker 2: Yeah, we really want you to rate and review. Please
Speaker 2: please do that. This episode was hosted by me.
Speaker 3: Francine Leap and Me David Merritt.
Speaker 1: It was produced by Summersadi.
Speaker 3: With additional editing by Blake Maples
Speaker 1: And special thanks to Julia Hubby