WEBVTT - Living Your Truth: A Transgender Pastor Speaks Out 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, fam, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:05.840 Red Table Pop podcast all your favorite episodes from the 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.040 Facebook watch show in audio produced by Westbrook Audio and 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.080 I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:18.200 on Apple Podcasts. On this Red Table talk the respected 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:22.960 evangelical pastor who finally decided to live her truth. Pastor 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:27.440 Paul is now Paula. As Paul, you were married, and 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:32.320 I'm assuming that you loved your wife good to start 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.519 and what her family thinks. Now, okay, my dad's got 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:48.519 said that there will always be that pain. I'm very 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.920 excited about our show today. It's going to be different. Yeah. Interesting. 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:57.800 The Red Table will probably spark some controversy today when 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.720 when does it not. But I really want to ask 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.080 our our t T family to keep an open mind, 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:08.160 because that's what we do here. I am really fascinated 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.080 and intrigued by the story of our guests that's coming today. 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.760 For more than forty years, Pastor Paul Williams traveled from 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.759 state to state preaching the gospel. Courage is stepping forward 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.240 even though you're absolutely filled with fear. Paul was happily 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.640 married and a devoted father to his three children, but 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.679 he spent a majority of his life hiding his truth. 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:32.720 They knew that I was a girl when I was 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.520 about three or four years of age. I fought it 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.360 for decades. I had spent my life wanting to be 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.720 a loving husband, a loving father, and for a long 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:45.960 time I thought that I would make it through my 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:49.520 life without transitioning. But after a lifetime as a man, 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:54.000 Paul made the agonizing decision to transition into a woman. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.720 I realized I no longer had a choice. I felt 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.280 like I was dying inside. It was a feeling of 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:06.200 desperation and deep sadness because I knew what it would 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.320 do to my family. I learned about my dad becoming 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:17.000 transgender in one day. My dad just said I'm Trench 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:23.840 gender and started hysterically crying. I felt uh sad. I 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.040 had to grieve all of what was We were always 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:32.000 that family that everything went wonderfully, but I felt like 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.800 I was breaking the family apart, and I didn't know 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:42.560 if we would survive. Transitioning is not an easy process, 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:48.880 and though it was painful, it was wonderful and was 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.959 the hardest decision I've ever made in my life. Welcome, 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.560 Thank you. I wanted to ask you if you could 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.960 describe to us a bit what your life was like 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:06.919 for you as Paul, knowing inside that you were someone else. 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.040 It was tough. Yeah, I mean I knew from the 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.160 time I was three or four I was transgender. So 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.200 it's like, well, the gender fairy will arrive and I 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:16.520 will get to choose what I am a girl, And 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.400 of course it didn't happen. And I didn't hate being 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.600 a boy. I just knew I wasn't one. But the 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.840 longer life went, the more it's like, I don't want 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.839 to do this to my family. But it was a 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:34.080 call and I just saw. I screamed, God, who the 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.200 do you think you are to me to this. I'm 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.000 going to lose everything. My family is going to suffer. 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.160 But I knew it been called. And you reject to 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:47.480 call at your own peril. Yes, that's real talk. I 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.360 consider myself a strong person, but I would think about 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.600 myself and your shoes, and as I was like, would 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.560 I have made that choice? And I said to myself, 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.840 there had to be such a strong call, like I 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.560 wouldn't have done it because there's so much judgment in 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:09.920 the world and you're risking everything, your family it was 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:15.280 really tough. As Paul, you were married, and I'm assuming 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.400 that you loved your wife because it was my understanding, yeah, 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.800 that even in your transition, you were hoping to keep 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:26.279 that union intact when you decided to transition. Was she 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:30.719 the first person that you told? Yeah, and it's been, 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:39.040 um the hardest. Yeah, I can imagine. So whose decision 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.440 was it to Actually just that was her, It was 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.599 her decision. I would like to have remained married. I 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.400 mean we had the world's best marriage therapist and he said, 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:49.400 what makes this so tragic is you're a lesbian and 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.880 she's not right, and so that's kind of yeah. Yeah, 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.400 that I think was my realization that it wasn't fair 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.680 to her, that she needs to be true to herself 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:03.680 as well exactly, and she's not attracted to women, and 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.359 so that was her decision. It was difficult for me, 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:14.160 and this for her husband devastating. Yeah. Yeah. Before Pastor 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.920 Paul transitioned to Paula, he had a traditional life as 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.640 a husband and a father of three. I remember my 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:29.320 dad telling us I am transgender and describing what that is. 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.520 It was just like wow, in that moment, the world 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.919 felt like it had flipped over, nothing will ever be 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.920 the same. I feel like there was no words at first. 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.720 I know, I immediately got up and hugged them, and 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.200 I was just scared to death. And then my parents 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.599 just told us, are you ready to meet Paula? And 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.240 they opened the door and Paula was standing there like 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:55.800 very timid, like when are you ever ready to see 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.840 your father dressed up as a woman and with makeup, 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.920 and my dad's boobs are bigger than mine, you know. 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.160 She was like showing us all of her clothes and 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.840 her closet and just being a girl. I was truly 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:11.520 excited for her because I could just see like she 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:13.960 was glowing. There was no chance that I could deny 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:17.440 that this isn't who she is. But she's not my dad, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:24.160 so that really, like that was hard. I feel like 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.520 it was immediately worried for what life will be like 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:31.880 for my father. This is how I remember our childhood, 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:36.960 always happy, always fooling around, the quintessential like family. How 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.160 could I not know? Like how could we have not known? 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.360 And although it wasn't a betrayal, it felt like one. 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.159 It's like if you knew this all this time, Like 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.600 how could you not have told us? I felt like 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.360 I had been mine too. That was Daddy's a little girl. 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:55.640 Now you're not daddy. Now my dad's gone. So okay, 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:10.720 like I just miss my dad. Yeah yeah, we lost 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:18.840 their down. Yeah wow. So we have two of your 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:25.040 children here today. We have Jana and Jonathan also a pastor. Welcome. 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.440 So did it feel like you didn't have an opportunity 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:32.960 to say goodbye to your father? But it isn't a 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.280 feeling of who is this stranger. It's like this person 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.920 knows me so well. This is a parent. It's not 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:44.000 my mom my dad. I think that was the struggle, 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:45.640 like where do you put this? What do I do 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.280 with that? You know? Yeah, exactly, Like so who is 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:55.080 she to me? Now? You know my immediate thought was like, oh, 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:59.240 thank god, Like she looks good because I was real afraid, 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.720 so I like did a whole thing. I'm like, all right, 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.520 makeup is good, jewelry, like, okay, that's just good. She 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.800 looks great. But in that moment, I was like, Okay, 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.320 my dad's gone, Like this is it. I think for 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.560 me it was more of a process of relearning to 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.200 have a relationship with my dad. It was more of that, 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.560 you know, I didn't see this coming at all. I 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.800 had no idea, And now you're telling me you're transitioning 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.680 to become a woman, and I'm like, okay, was my 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.720 whole life a lie? Was I was I playing catch 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.200 in the front yard with you know, a woman dressed 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.480 in drag. That's that's what I start to warning. You know, 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.800 my dad was my god, and so it was like, Okay, 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:37.559 my god is gone. What I knew as my hero 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.280 is gone. And so there's a lot of anger around 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.520 losing that that north star. You know, the father son 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:47.440 relationship is real, and we had an incredible one. Yeah, 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.680 because you actually followed in this bus. Absolutely. I feel 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.160 like as a child you have like this like so 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.160 ingrained of like mom and dad and like their roles. 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.560 For that to just be like completely switched up, I 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.920 honestly couldn't imagine how that affects you, your mentality, you know, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:09.080 how that affects you know, even how you thought about 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:12.120 past experiences that you had as a child. I think 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.200 you need that foundation, And selfishly, I am thankful that 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:20.240 we had that. You know, we had a very normal bringing, 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.520 but you sort of know it's never really going to 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.640 be okay again, Like your family is never really going 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.280 to be what it was. And that's okay because she 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:34.559 is who she is and that is worth it. But 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:39.199 there'll always be that pain. It must be like death. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.400 It's confusing though you feel like there's a death, but 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:44.760 it's hard to grieve in that situation. And we had 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.760 nobody to to talk to about anybody. And so when 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:52.920 the whole Bruce Jenner story came out, everyone started calling, Oh, 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.719 that's what you're at, Like, yeah, when you first transition. 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.600 Every time we went somewhere, she was just so nervous 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:01.880 and she was so reserved and shy. And to see 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.920 my dad, who I had known to be this powerful 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:07.760 male that was kind of like leading the pack, and 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:11.319 all of a sudden the roles were reversed. There was 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.040 a few months that I had to be like Paula 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:17.640 one day and paul the next. It was it was 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.360 so difficult, and at that point I was also I've 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:22.240 been on estrogen for quite some time, and I remember 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:23.680 the last time I had to go out as a male. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:28.439 My spouse was just laughing and saying, Oh, you really 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:33.840 looked like I don't something in between. You gotta stop 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.880 this stuff soon, you would visit me as a male. 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.880 Still I was, I was in denial. It was really 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.320 hard for me. And so I remember the last time 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:44.760 you visited me as Paul. I looked at you and 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:46.960 I was like, this is this is not my father. 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:49.920 It doesn't feel like my dad anymore. Doesn't look like 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.040 my dad anymore. She doesn't look like my dad. Yeah, 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.800 I just started crying. He started crying, and Paul at 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:58.959 the time said why and I said, because you're not 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:04.839 You're not my dad and longer. So, yeah, that was 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:09.280 a tough day. Paula, did you understand the extent of 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:15.400 how your daughters and your son missed Paul their father? No, 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.320 because I think in the first year, you're just so 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.920 happy to be in the right body. You're so self absorbed, 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:24.560 and you know, maybe they should just lock us in 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:29.760 a room for that, just until we're ready to come 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:33.360 back into a real world, can realize the way we've 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.280 exploded the family narrative. None of us know what to 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.760 do with Paul. I don't know what to do with Paul, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.280 and I don't have pictures of Paul around the house, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.679 and I speak of myself in the third person. Yeah, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:51.520 I don't know how you integrate. We didn't memorialize Paul 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:57.400 said goodbye to Paul. I think what's really fascinating also 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:02.280 is the fact that you were part of evangelical community 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:10.240 for such a long time. In churches across America, conservative leaders, 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:14.079 just like Pastor Paul once was, have different views about 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:18.680 being transgender. I see a man dressed up as a 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.079 woman who has mutilated his body and saying, hey, look 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.280 at me. Everybody, every church has a different opinion on 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.120 the issue, and lgbt s of all types and sorts 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:32.080 have to find a household of warship that reflects what 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.800 your views are and what you believe like anybody else. 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.400 Transgenderism is not a civil right. Just because I have 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:46.400 morals and values, that does not make me a discriminatory bigot. Wow. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:52.480 Where no enemy exists, we create. And you see that 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.080 in the religious world, creating enemies that don't exist, and 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.160 that's what they've done with the LGBTQ community. Absolutely, you 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.960 believe that you would be risking your relationship with your community. 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:07.520 I didn't know how bad it was going to be. 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:09.760 I thought, well, okay, I'll probably have to leave my 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.320 jobs at some point in time, and so I wanted 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.160 to tell the organizations I was a part of and 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.600 one I've been with for thirty five years, and I 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.160 was gone from all of my jobs within seven days. 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:28.160 I lost the church, most of my friends, I lost 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.640 my pension, I lost everything. The next few months were 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.040 hard to even survive. In twenty one state, you can't 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.160 be fired for being transgender, but in all fifty you 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.240 can be fired at your transgender and you work for 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:44.400 a religious corporation. These are good things to know. For me. 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.640 The hard part was the same organization that Paul worked for. 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.520 That's the organization that hired me to start this church, right, 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.480 So when she told me about her transition, I'm like, well, 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.760 I just got a bunch of money from these churches, 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.200 and if they find out, not only will you get fired, 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.839 but there's a chance that I'm going to have to say, well, 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:02.520 I support my dad, in which case I'm going to 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.240 get fired. So in three months into this church plant 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.960 that I just started, and I can't tell anybody for 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.520 fear of both of our livelihoods, both of ours. I 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.360 cried upstairs every Sunday and I would come down ten 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.520 minutes before our services started, and I put on a 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.280 happy face and I'd smile and I preach and all that, 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.200 but I was resentful. I was resentful that I had 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.400 to do that. So there was some anger there. I 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.320 was quietly affirming of the l g b t Q community. Um, 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.760 but you know, I'm a white male and it doesn't 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.080 have to affect me if I don't want it to 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.480 affect me. And all of a sudden, it affects me. 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.720 And so I'm going, Okay, well what do I do. 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:39.920 Do I continue just to hold privilege in power and 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.960 not do anything about this, or do I support my 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.000 my dad and you know, thousands like her who are 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.880 literally life and death. You know, people are being told 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.080 that they're not loved. So what decision did you make? 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.400 I cannot, in good conscience be a church that does not, 0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:01.400 you know, outwardly include support and affirm lgbt Q a community. Yeah, 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.240 and so yeah, we lost lost thousands of dollars and 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:05.880 a lot of people walked out our doors. And it 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:10.640 was the best decision we ever made. Estrangement wasn't an option, right, 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.800 you don't leave somebody that's beautiful. I don't feel like 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.720 there's a lot of religious spaces that offer like a true, 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:23.680 true community to transgender people, people who don't really fit 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.680 in to the religious status quo. You know, you still 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.840 have churches that don't allow women in the post. Yeah, well, 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.320 in twenty eight states, the major religious teaching is actually 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.120 a teaching that says men should be in charge of 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.760 women at home, at church, and by extrapolation and every 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.520 other part of our environment. That's still the major teaching 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.400 in twenty eight states of the United States. That's frightening. 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.080 I also feel as though people fear that which they 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.520 don't understand absolutely, which is one of the reasons why 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.800 I keep wanting to have these conversations that more intimate 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:01.440 understanding about it, because if you understand it, all you 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:06.120 have is your fear. Do you think that working with 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:12.160 that organization for so long kept you from fully transitioning beforehand? Yeah? 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:14.160 I mean it was a way to not have to 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.480 deal with what I needed to deal with. It was 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.560 a way to stay in a safe space, and frankly, 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.880 a way to kind of keep my power. Yeah, my 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:25.760 male privilege, which is painful to admit, that makes sense, 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:30.680 but that's real talk. Is that self awareness? Me. I 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.520 feel like if I was a man, I would be like, Wow, 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.960 I have so much privilege as a man. I don't 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.280 know if I want to mess that up, Like that's 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:48.200 what it's so much religion, politics, everything is set up 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:54.080 for the patriarchy. So it's like every white patriarchy for sure. Absolutely. 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.320 I think as a male, I was just pretty sure 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:00.240 I was I was the stuff. Yeah, I under stand, 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.760 there's still so much privilege you carry with me. I 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.399 think that is a strength that I had that the 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.640 world had been very good to me. Everything I ever 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.679 touched turned to gold, and so it was actually, I 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.520 think easier for me to make that decision, certainly than 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.760 a person of color, more than someone who's not had 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.800 the kind of education or white male privilege or success 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.960 that I had. For me, is that huge point. That's 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.280 a huge point because us in here is African American women, 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:34.479 were like, right, right, right, yeah, I mean that's one 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.320 of the most at risk groups in the United States, 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:42.720 is trans women. I am very impressed with your awareness 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:47.760 of understanding your privilege as a white male, right yeah. 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:49.480 I mean there are a lot of things you discover 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.040 when you transition. One, if you speak up while you 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.560 speak up too strong, while now you're you're just too strong, 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.080 and you're that word and if you don't speak up 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.520 strongly enough, and now you're too acquiescent. And if you 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.639 do speak cap you're just going to be interrupted. You 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:06.119 tell her, girls, don't speak until you know you're absolutely perfect, 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:07.560 till you have your ducks in her rockcase, you're gonna 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.919 be interrupted anymore. Honestly, Like, I even see it in myself. 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:12.520 If there's like a lot of men in the room, 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.320 I have to get myself in a specific state where 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:19.840 it's like no, like I cannot be refuted. It's true. 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:24.040 I think what's really fascinating was you also acknowledging the fact, well, 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:26.440 if this is happening to me as a white woman, 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.280 I can only imagine what's happening to my sisters that 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.200 are of color, my Latin sisters, my black sisters, or 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.360 my own daughter, right yes, me three and my five 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.520 granddaughters or children of color. Right, Wow, that is true. 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.160 So you adopted your daughter? How old was she when 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:45.919 you was two months of age when we got her 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:50.480 from Calcutta. I don't think we had nearly any idea 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:52.879 of the difficulties that it was going to be for 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.679 her to grow up as a child of color in 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.879 a very white family in a very white neighborhood and 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.320 we were not aware of that. What made you aware 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.159 of it? Shortly after I transition and just started watching 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.280 my power disappear, she's like, so, what do you think? 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.440 So do you have any idea? No, you know, and 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.040 it's like she was the most accepting of you from 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:19.359 the geto from the story because she's been the immediate 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.120 she has and it was immediate. Yeah, it's so beautiful 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.080 to know both sides, you know, to have that power 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.480 and then to have that shift and how that affects 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.240 how you thought about past experiences that you had. I 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:32.399 think that's a really beautiful thing because not a lot 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.600 of people get to see both both sides. I always 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:41.240 say that the highest challenges us in ways to make 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.840 our hearts more elastic. I like that, you know. Yeah, 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.600 how did your children deal with Paula? So we sat 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.160 them down and we said, hey, Grandpa has always felt 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.520 like a girl on the inside, and so now Grandpa 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.280 is going to look like a girl, to dress like 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:58.600 a girl. And my older daughter, who was six at 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:02.000 the time, she said, so, basically, Grandpa's just gonna match 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:03.840 how he feels on the inside with the outside. And 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.480 I said, yeah, and she goes, okay, And it was 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.280 that simple when she finally met them. Though. Grandpa comes 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.040 in the room and my girls are coloring at the 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.160 table and they're both quiet, and you know, my wife 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:17.360 and I were going say hi, say hi to Grandpa, 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:19.840 and they're quiet, and then my five year old she 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:24.560 looks up, she goes, so, Grandpa, you still have a penis. 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:28.919 And you know that broke the tension, right, So now 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.600 we're all laughing. We're like, oh, this is great out 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:36.000 the mouth of baby. I'm telling you. At that moment, 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:37.600 you know, they came up with the name Grandpaula. We're 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.119 gonna call her grandpa. Have you guys figured what to 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.640 call Paula? I said, you know, I have a mom, 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:45.879 and mom played the mom role in my life. And 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.280 Paula said, I've always felt like your dad. That's always 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:51.280 been real, so so you can call me dad. I mean, 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:53.040 that's never not going to be true. It doesn't it 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.040 doesn't change, it doesn't change. But there'll be times in 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.639 public where I'll be like dad, Dad, Dad, when my 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:01.360 child is doing something and people will look around like like, what, 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.439 who's the dad? And for you, it's not it's not 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.560 the same. Yeah, I immediately didn't call your dad anymore 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.239 because it's to me, it's two separate people, you know, 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:17.240 even though Dad's not gone, Dad's gone and this is Paula. 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.040 I feel like this is happening so much more than 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.840 I feel like we need to come up with some vocabulary. 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:30.000 I love that you even like like transitioning rituals. We 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.479 need to come up. Let's make this a thing, you know. 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:36.880 I think that could be huge. Yeah, maybe super helpful. 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:40.080 What I realize is that it takes a new skill 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:49.080 in order to figure out how to gracefully transition a 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:53.880 family and community. Absolutely, well, we're gonna bring the fishbowl out. 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.480 You want to go first, Paula, do you have any regrets? 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:04.160 I have tons of regrets. I have no regrets about transitioning, 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:10.560 got it, Paula? Have you ever had gender reassignment surgery? 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.639 To me, there is one question that should not be asked. 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:19.000 That's just inappropriate. But I would not walk up to 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:21.040 somebody and say, can you please tell me about your 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.000 sex life? Or you know what I mean? I don't care. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:26.520 I want my dad happy and healthy. That's what I want. 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.640 There's a socially economic issue as well. You know I 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:31.840 was a very successful white male. I can have whatever 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:34.240 surgeries I want to have, But what about all those 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:37.199 who cannot do so? Yeah, that's that's a question we 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:41.400 generally don't answer. Good, got you, I'll pick one this time. 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:48.840 Oh okay, sure, Me from Chicago, Illinois is asking Paula, 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:52.560 did you have to learn to become feminine? It shocked 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:56.560 even me how easy and natural it was. Because I 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:00.520 was a guy's guy. Nobody would have had a clue, right, 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:05.080 and it was so easy. I don't have any explanation. 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:10.520 I just came, just came. And that's not always true 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:13.480 for transgender women. A lot of them really have to 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:20.000 work hard. But in my case, I didn't wow with 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:25.119 Angelizzle staff at Jonathan's church, and she is joining the 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:31.919 Red Table from New York everybody. So, Angela, I know 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:36.320 you had some strong beliefs about transgender and gay people 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:39.359 at the point of time. What would those views that 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:42.600 you had. Well, growing up in the Baptist church, we 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:47.439 have been taught that being gay was an abomination. Uh, 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:51.440 if you were gay transgender, like everybody that didn't fit 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:54.160 this certain box was going to go to hell. Then 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.520 I grew up and moved to New York and I 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:00.280 started to go to Forefront, and then Jonathan would start 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:05.920 preaching about becoming more inclusive, right, and sometimes he would 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:10.119 say things, you know, and I'd be like, oh Lord, 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:14.679 because I didn't know if lightning was gonna strike me, 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.760 what was gonna happen? You know? It was it was 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:22.840