Speaker 1: If I deserve one bit of credit for the prescience
Speaker 1: of my powerful People list over time. I actually put
Speaker 1: Elon Musk on my list seven or eight years ago,
Speaker 1: before he became as famous as he has become.
Speaker 2: Welcome to One Day University talks with the world's most
Speaker 2: engaging and inspiring professors discussing their most popular courses. This
Speaker 2: podcast is your chance to discover some of our top
Speaker 2: rated lectures on your own schedule. I'm Steven Shregis. You
Speaker 2: can easily look up the richest people in the world,
Speaker 2: but where's the list of the most powerful? That's a
Speaker 2: little harder to define. Does being President of the United
Speaker 2: States automatically make you the most powerful person in the world?
Speaker 2: What about having lots of money or influence? Does social
Speaker 2: media give you power? Professor William Burke White came up
Speaker 2: with a set of criteria to create his list of
Speaker 2: the world's most powerful people. He updates it every year,
Speaker 2: and he has given multiple lectures on this list for
Speaker 2: One Day University. William is an international lawyer and political scientist,
Speaker 2: and he teaches at the University of Pennsylvania. He also
Speaker 2: served in the Obama administration. William says one of the
Speaker 2: lessons he's learned through this process is that keeping power
Speaker 2: is harder than getting it.
Speaker 1: I think this started back in about two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: maybe twenty ten, and it's been fun to think about
Speaker 1: who's powerful and how that changes over time. So every
Speaker 1: year or every six months, we end up updating the list,
Speaker 1: and I think it actually, as you look back over
Speaker 1: that ten year period, really helps us see both how
Speaker 1: power is changed and how the world in which we
Speaker 1: live has been reshaped by power.
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you expand on that a little
Speaker 2: because I've seen you left your a number of times
Speaker 2: on this. There's different types of power.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Stephen, So what is power? You know, we talk
Speaker 1: about power all the time, and we often have a
Speaker 1: sense of what we think we mean by that. You know,
Speaker 1: the vision of power that we most often probably think
Speaker 1: of as military power.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: The war in Ukraine today is a version of military power,
Speaker 1: with missiles and tanks and drones on both sides. But
Speaker 1: that is not the only way to think about power.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Another way to think about power is economic power. How
Speaker 1: much money does someone have or does a country have.
Speaker 1: That's another form of coercive power, but it's not about
Speaker 1: coercion with a gun or a bomb, but coercion with
Speaker 1: either the promise of economic wealth or the threat of
Speaker 1: economic poverty. When we think about power economically, people lie
Speaker 1: Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos start to look really powerful.
Speaker 1: But that's not it'steven. There's a third way to look
Speaker 1: at power, and let's call that a softer version of power.
Speaker 1: It's about power that comes from others wanting to follow us.
Speaker 1: It's not about coercion. It's not about guns or bombs
Speaker 1: or either economic sanctions or economic wealth. And when we
Speaker 1: think about power in terms of soft power, then you
Speaker 1: know people like Oprah Winfrey, people who have lots of
Speaker 1: Twitter followers or lots of TikTok followers. These are the
Speaker 1: people who can shape an agenda or can get us
Speaker 1: to read a book just because Oprah says it's a
Speaker 1: good book.
Speaker 2: So we now know all the different types of power.
Speaker 2: But how would you define it?
Speaker 1: I would say power is to get others to do
Speaker 1: something for our purpose, for whatever it is we bring
Speaker 1: to that equation. Sometimes we get them to do it
Speaker 1: through economic power, sometimes through military power, sometimes through soft power.
Speaker 1: But when you put all these three together that you
Speaker 1: get this ability to convince others to do something that
Speaker 1: you want them to do, and ultimately, that to me
Speaker 1: is power.
Speaker 2: Thanks for the explanation. I'm going to ask you about
Speaker 2: six people, in no particular order. These are not ranked
Speaker 2: in any way, but there are six people that clearly
Speaker 2: would be on a list of powerful people as we're
Speaker 2: having this discussion right now in early twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: And the first one is Vladimir Putin. Tell me about
Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin and why he belongs on a powerful list,
Speaker 2: maybe even at the top of a powerful list or not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, gosh, I wish we didn't have to put Putin
Speaker 1: on our list. And you're right, Stephen. You've said before
Speaker 1: this list changes over time, and it does. But I
Speaker 1: think in today's moment, in the context of a war
Speaker 1: in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin is hard not to have on
Speaker 1: the list. So who is he? Right? He is the
Speaker 1: President of Russia. Interestingly, he has been the president of
Speaker 1: Russia for a long time now. And part of our
Speaker 1: story of powerful people is there often people who have
Speaker 1: figured out how to get rid of constraints, and Putin
Speaker 1: has done this brilliantly. You know, when Putin became president,
Speaker 1: he was really constrained. He was constrained by a decrepit
Speaker 1: economy after the end of the Cold War, he was
Speaker 1: constrained by the oligarchs, these Russian businessmen who held a
Speaker 1: lot of power in Russia. And systematically, for the last
Speaker 1: twenty something years, Vladimir Putin has undercut every one of
Speaker 1: these constraints. He has built Russia's economy, usually using the
Speaker 1: leverage of energy warfare and energy coercion. Russia has some
Speaker 1: of the world's largest natural gas reserves and some of
Speaker 1: the largest oil reserves, and he used that to make
Speaker 1: Russia rich. And then from there he used that wealth
Speaker 1: to make Russia at least appear militarily strong, and Russia built,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the largest militaries in the world world.
Speaker 1: It's why we see talk of Russia's nuclear arsenal or
Speaker 1: of its hypersonic missiles. And then Putin again undercut constraints.
Speaker 1: He overrode the Russian Constitution, getting amendments to the constitution
Speaker 1: to let him stay in power forever. And then he
Speaker 1: undercut all of the power of democracy in Russia, getting
Speaker 1: rid of the opposition leader, murdering essentially one of the
Speaker 1: opposition leaders in red square, so there's no one to
Speaker 1: stop him, and not surprisingly, then in February twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: what does Putin do? He invades Ukraine? And Putin's ability
Speaker 1: to be powerful is in part because he is willing.
Speaker 1: In fact, he is dead set on destabilizing the international system.
Speaker 1: He is willing to break the rules that say you
Speaker 1: can't invade your neighbor and invade Ukraine. He's willing to
Speaker 1: break the rules that say you can't kill civilians in
Speaker 1: war and simply indiscriminately bomb Ukraine. Before that, he was
Speaker 1: willing to destabilize America's political system or electoral system back
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen when he interfered with the US election.
Speaker 1: So Putin has a lot of military power, we might
Speaker 1: question today how effective that is. He hasn't been able
Speaker 1: to actually take over Ukraine. A lot of economic power
Speaker 1: as the seventh largest economy in the world, and not
Speaker 1: so much soft power. Today nobody looks at Russian and
Speaker 1: says we want to follow you. But that economic power,
Speaker 1: that political ability to undermine his opponents puts Putin on
Speaker 1: the list.
Speaker 2: What about his Ukrainian counterpart, Zelenski? Did you even consider
Speaker 2: him as one of the top people.
Speaker 1: You know, who would ever think that somebody who was
Speaker 1: once a comedian, you know, started in a kind of
Speaker 1: funny TV series, would become president of Ukraine, much less
Speaker 1: become potentially one of the most powerful people in the world.
Speaker 1: But you're right to say he could, in theory make
Speaker 1: our list. Why because he has been able to galvanize
Speaker 1: a global response to Russia's invasion. He has been able
Speaker 1: to stop Vladimir Putin in his tracks and note Barack
Speaker 1: Obama couldn't stop Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump couldn't stop Vladimir Putin.
Speaker 1: Angela Merkel couldn't stop Vladimir Putin. But Zelensky has and
Speaker 1: that is really impressive. I guess part of why I
Speaker 1: don't think he actually makes the list is because, first
Speaker 1: of all, his ability to influence is very narrow. He
Speaker 1: is really only able to keep Ukraine from being invaded
Speaker 1: or being overtaken. He's not shaping the rest of global discourse.
Speaker 1: So I think he's worth thinking about. And I think
Speaker 1: there might come a moment where he makes the list
Speaker 1: and Putin falls off that list, But right now I'm
Speaker 1: afraid to say it's still Putin who's on the list.
Speaker 1: But Zelensky certainly gets the surprise entry category as somebody
Speaker 1: to think about.
Speaker 2: Then another counterpart, an obvious one, Joe Biden, President of
Speaker 2: the United States. Some would say, well, that's the most
Speaker 2: powerful person in the world day after day, year after year, year,
Speaker 2: decade after decade. But you've made the point often that's
Speaker 2: not really true. That's not the right way to look
Speaker 2: at it. You want to explain that a bit.
Speaker 1: Yes, Stephen, you know American presidents come and go from
Speaker 1: my list, and they often come and go at different
Speaker 1: times during their presidency. But you're right, a lot of
Speaker 1: people would say, oh, the US president ought to be
Speaker 1: on the list no matter what. The US is the
Speaker 1: world's largest economy, and that's true. The US has the
Speaker 1: world's most powerful military. That's true too. The president may
Speaker 1: be one of the very few people in the world
Speaker 1: who has a nuclear football as they call it, next
Speaker 1: to him at all times and could launch a nuclear
Speaker 1: war that could destroy the world in an instant. And
Speaker 1: so you're right, I think the US president should always
Speaker 1: be a candidate for our list. But once we've established
Speaker 1: that somebody has raw military or economic power, we have
Speaker 1: to look at their ability to deploy and use that power,
Speaker 1: and as I talked about with Vladimir Putin, he has
Speaker 1: an ability to deploy his power because he's undercut all
Speaker 1: of the police opposition in Russia. He has nearly absolute power.
Speaker 1: And one of the frankly, in my opinion, very good
Speaker 1: things about the US system is that our presidents rarely
Speaker 1: have absolute power. Joe Biden has had an interesting presidency.
Speaker 1: He controlled all three branches of government really, you know,
Speaker 1: the House, the Senate, and the Executive for his first
Speaker 1: two years, and for the beginning of his presidency he
Speaker 1: didn't get much done. Sure, he got a COVID relief
Speaker 1: package through, but he looked like a kind of embattled
Speaker 1: and weak president. And in my view, Joe Biden got
Speaker 1: onto the list in the last eight months or so
Speaker 1: largely because three things happened. The first is that he
Speaker 1: got a major legislative package through the US Congress on
Speaker 1: the Inflation Reduction Act, among other things that I think
Speaker 1: will have really long term impact. The second thing that
Speaker 1: happened is he won the midterms, or at least didn't
Speaker 1: lose the midterms, and showed that he was a political
Speaker 1: force to be reckoned with in a way that many
Speaker 1: people didn't think he was. And then third, Vladimir Putin
Speaker 1: invaded Ukraine and Biden became the global figure of coordinated
Speaker 1: response to that invasion. So each of those things, to
Speaker 1: me adds up to say, not only is this a
Speaker 1: man with real potential power the tanks, the money, and
Speaker 1: so forth, but also the ability to deploy that power.
Speaker 1: We'll have to see whether he stays on the list,
Speaker 1: but today, given what he's done in Ukraine, and given
Speaker 1: his ability to actually get things through the Senate, he
Speaker 1: makes my list.
Speaker 2: Let's change gears a little. I'm going to say the name,
Speaker 2: and clearly this is someone much more in the news
Speaker 2: than ever before. You probably have a different take than
Speaker 2: you would have a few years ago. Tell me about
Speaker 2: Elon Musk.
Speaker 1: You know, if I deserve one bit of credit for
Speaker 1: the prescience of my Powerful People list over time, I
Speaker 1: actually put Elon Musk on my list seven or eight
Speaker 1: years ago, before he became as famous as he has become.
Speaker 1: And the story I used to tell about Elon Musk
Speaker 1: back then was that Elon Musk had figured out how
Speaker 1: to modernize hard power, the power of technology, what we
Speaker 1: think of his military power, but that military power had
Speaker 1: become something new because the real tensions in the world
Speaker 1: were going to be about energy, and Elon Musk had
Speaker 1: figured out how to capture energy. He had invented a
Speaker 1: battery and built a capacity to deploy batteries better than
Speaker 1: anybody ever in human history. And he'd also figured out
Speaker 1: how to replace governments in driving the space race essentially,
Speaker 1: and so in many ways, to me, Elon Musk looked
Speaker 1: like a combination of two of the robber barons of
Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds, right, Vanderbilt and Rockefeller. One was the
Speaker 1: oil baron and the other the railroad baron. And Musk
Speaker 1: had figured out transportation, you know, through his rockets, and
Speaker 1: energy through his batteries. He built Tesla into the world's
Speaker 1: most valuable company for a while, and he became the
Speaker 1: richest man in the world. So now he not only
Speaker 1: had the hard power of those technology sources, but also
Speaker 1: the power of wealth. And Elon Musk decided to both
Speaker 1: get political and to buy Twitter. So there's one version
Speaker 1: of this story that makes him even more powerful, makes
Speaker 1: him the most powerful human being maybe in history, because
Speaker 1: Twitter was in many ways the way we measured soft power.
Speaker 1: That was where the conversation was taking place in its
Speaker 1: best form. You know, it is the global town square,
Speaker 1: and Elon Musk now owns that town square. And so
Speaker 1: you combined in one person hard power, soft power, and
Speaker 1: economic power, and Elon Musk ought to be at the
Speaker 1: top of our list. But I'm not sure Elon Musk
Speaker 1: has deployed his power all that smartly, and maybe as
Speaker 1: a result, he ought to fall off the list. As
Speaker 1: hard as that is to believe, Let's look at what's
Speaker 1: happened in the last year or so. Right, he decides
Speaker 1: to buy Twitter just at the moment that the economy
Speaker 1: starts to soften. He overpays for it, and in the process,
Speaker 1: the value of Tesla starts to collapse. And because he
Speaker 1: decides to get sort of political, a lot of people
Speaker 1: start to leave Twitter as the town square. Today again,
Speaker 1: I think he's still on the list, But if I
Speaker 1: had to put a trend line for Musk, it's on
Speaker 1: the way down, not on the way up.
Speaker 2: Today, after the break, China's power on the world stage
Speaker 2: and Google's dominance in our everyday lives, come to ask
Speaker 2: about another president, Gi the Chinese president, how does he
Speaker 2: stack up?
Speaker 1: Jijinping is a pretty incredible example of power he is
Speaker 1: the president of the country with the most people in
Speaker 1: the world. She is also the leader of the country
Speaker 1: with the world's second largest but fastest growing economy. Most
Speaker 1: economists predict that the Chinese economy will surpass that of
Speaker 1: the United States sometime in the twenty twenties. And she
Speaker 1: has also, like Vladimir Putin, figured out how to get
Speaker 1: rid of constraint on power. You know, five years ago,
Speaker 1: he amended the Chinese constitution to allow him to stay
Speaker 1: in power for a third term. Traditionally, Chinese leaders only
Speaker 1: stay in power for a ten year period two to
Speaker 1: five year terms. Jijinping started his third term as China's leader,
Speaker 1: and he has consolidated authority in remarkable ways. We've seen
Speaker 1: China become a somewhat destructive force in global economy, or
Speaker 1: at least an influential force, whether that be on the
Speaker 1: trade war with the United States, whether that be asserting
Speaker 1: its rights in the South China Sea, building islands in
Speaker 1: the middle of the ocean to be able to deploy
Speaker 1: its power globally, or the desire to shape institutions and
Speaker 1: exercise its veto, for example, at the United Nations. Jijinping
Speaker 1: has also done some incredible things, brought more people out
Speaker 1: of poverty than anyone in human history ever has. Because
Speaker 1: the wealth that China has created in the last ten
Speaker 1: twenty years is unwitnessed before in human history. China also
Speaker 1: now has a very powerful military. I would today say
Speaker 1: the second most powerful military in the world. After Russia
Speaker 1: has depleted its military in the Ukraine, China is definitely
Speaker 1: number two. So that's an incredible story of power. China
Speaker 1: has also under Ji figured out how to harness technology
Speaker 1: to have power and influence. The ability to use artificial
Speaker 1: intelligence and facial recognition software, the ability during the coronavirus
Speaker 1: pandemic to track people on their cell phones. China has
Speaker 1: become a very scrutinized state where governmental power over individual
Speaker 1: lives is quite remarkable. So all of that puts jesen
Speaker 1: Ping on the list. Like Elon Musk, I think the
Speaker 1: trend line on Jijinping today is in the downward direction,
Speaker 1: not the upward direction. And here's why Stephen I think
Speaker 1: she went too far in the closures and lockdowns after
Speaker 1: the pandemic. He went too far because the Chinese economy
Speaker 1: has really been in a bit of a tailspin from
Speaker 1: years of lockdown. Chinese growth has slowed. Individuals are no
Speaker 1: longer feeling like they have a lot of opportunity economically.
Speaker 1: G's inevitability has been cracked. You know, for many years,
Speaker 1: much of the last decade, every Chinese citizen has thought
Speaker 1: Jijenping was the answer. And what they're starting to realize
Speaker 1: is he may not be, and China's economy may not
Speaker 1: be as able to continue to sustain the kind of
Speaker 1: growth it's scene in the slowdown that we're seeing there today.
Speaker 1: So she's on the list, But my trend line on
Speaker 1: Gi is it looked better for him a few years
Speaker 1: ago than it does today.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's let's take another big turn to someone else.
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you about a twenty year old
Speaker 2: young woman who has redefined how millions of people think
Speaker 2: about climate change.
Speaker 1: I'm guessing, Stephen, you're talking about Gretit Thunberg. Many of
Speaker 1: our listeners may have heard of her, some might not have.
Speaker 1: She is a twenty year old climate activist from Sweden
Speaker 1: who some six years ago was frustrated by climate change,
Speaker 1: frustrated by the unwillingness of governments and institutions and power
Speaker 1: to do anything about it. So she painted a little
Speaker 1: sign on a piece of cardboard that said school strike
Speaker 1: for Climate in Swedish school strike, and she sat in
Speaker 1: front of her school and didn't go to class. Greta
Speaker 1: does not have a tank. Greta does not have a gun.
Speaker 1: Greta does not have much of a nickel to her name.
Speaker 1: Greta would not appear powerful by most of our traditional measures.
Speaker 1: But Greta, I think, really has reshaped how the public
Speaker 1: is thinking about and engaging on the biggest threat the
Speaker 1: world faces today, and that's climate change. And before you
Speaker 1: knew it, the one point eight billion people in this
Speaker 1: world who are under the age of eighteen were with Greta,
Speaker 1: with strikes of their own in Berlin, in Paris, and
Speaker 1: Akragana in Pretoria, South Africa, in Washington, d C. In
Speaker 1: parts of Asia. But you know, Stephen, the thing to
Speaker 1: me that was most remarkable is I've met with Greta
Speaker 1: a few times. I've seen her marching in Madrid, Spain
Speaker 1: during a climate conference with young people from around the
Speaker 1: world following her. But I also watched one year when
Speaker 1: she was with us in Davos at the Big Davos Conference.
Speaker 1: A few years before the pandemic, and she started one
Speaker 1: of her strikes, a march down bon Hofstrasse and Davos, Switzerland.
Speaker 1: And at first it was just Greta, and within a
Speaker 1: few blocks Greta was leading a march of some of
Speaker 1: the world's biggest capitalists and the world's most powerful political
Speaker 1: leaders who couldn't resist her call to act on climate
Speaker 1: And if you can reshape political debate, if you can
Speaker 1: get governments to act, if you can have the soft
Speaker 1: power to influence one point eight billion young people, you
Speaker 1: ought to be on our list. And so Greta is
Speaker 1: on mine.
Speaker 2: The last spot on the list is actually two people
Speaker 2: Bill tell us about the Google.
Speaker 1: Boys, Sergei Brinn and Larry Page. Yeah. So the Google
Speaker 1: Boys have been on my list for a long time
Speaker 1: because they invented a version of soft power that none
Speaker 1: of us had ever really even thought of beforehand, and
Speaker 1: today has redefined soft power. And that is the power
Speaker 1: of Google. You know how many of our listeners today
Speaker 1: have googled something. Maybe they had a product they thought
Speaker 1: of buying, or wanted a restaurant review, or even to
Speaker 1: find this podcast, and Google sent them there. Well, what
Speaker 1: the Google Boys invented in their algorithm and built in
Speaker 1: their company, and admittedly their company is one of the
Speaker 1: biggest richest companies in the world. But what they invented
Speaker 1: was the ability to shape the agenda, to set our preferences,
Speaker 1: to determine what we want, and they did so in
Speaker 1: a way that makes them money. You know, I talked
Speaker 1: about soft power earlier as an ability to shape the agenda,
Speaker 1: and usually that means somebody like Oprah tells us this
Speaker 1: is a great book, go buy it, and we say, oh,
Speaker 1: if Oprah likes the book, maybe we should go buy
Speaker 1: it too, and so we go and buy it. But
Speaker 1: what the Google boys did is figured out how to
Speaker 1: do that on a scale never before seen. Because anytime
Speaker 1: we want something or have a question about something, we
Speaker 1: turned to Google and Google answers it. But when Google
Speaker 1: answers that question, it shapes our preferences. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: where I want to go to dinner tonight. I go
Speaker 1: to Google. I put in good restaurants in Philadelphia and
Speaker 1: they give me three to choose from. They shaped my preferences,
Speaker 1: and each of those restaurants probably paid them to do so.
Speaker 1: That's brilliant. It's made them very, very rich, but it's
Speaker 1: also about soft power. Google decided to start trying to
Speaker 1: deploy the Internet in places that previously it had been
Speaker 1: restricted or technologically impossible. They launched these special hot air
Speaker 1: balloons into the stratosphere and they beam the Internet down
Speaker 1: so that they could overcome government censorship and that they
Speaker 1: could get the Internet to places it had never been before. This, again,
Speaker 1: is the story of breaking down restraints on you. Ultimately
Speaker 1: in ways, I think what Google is trying to do
Speaker 1: is put a little Google Search engine in each of
Speaker 1: our brains. They've shaped our preferences, They've told us what
Speaker 1: we want, they have set the global agenda.
Speaker 2: Final question, then, is there anyone you have a hunch
Speaker 2: just might make the list a couple of years from
Speaker 2: now that really you're pulling out of nowhere and is
Speaker 2: going to surprise us.
Speaker 1: So, hey, if I had a name, maybe I'd put
Speaker 1: them on the list presciently, But I have some places
Speaker 1: that I'm looking. India is soon to be the world's
Speaker 1: most populous country, and I don't think it's Mody, the
Speaker 1: President of India that makes the list. Maybe it's one
Speaker 1: of the Indian business people, but it's whoever figures out
Speaker 1: how to deploy the one point six billion people that
Speaker 1: India is soon going to have, and so I'd be
Speaker 1: keeping my eye on India as a piece of the world.
Speaker 1: I think whoever figures out what comes next in China,
Speaker 1: what comes next after Jijinping, is going to be on
Speaker 1: our list because of the power of China. So that's
Speaker 1: a place I would look. There's some technologies. Whoever figures
Speaker 1: out how to actually solve energy transition, whether that means
Speaker 1: you know, nuclear fission, whether that means you know, some
Speaker 1: new way of capturing and deploying renewable energy. Energy is
Speaker 1: the biggest unknown in terms of where human existence is gonna,
Speaker 1: you know, get its power from. And whoever figures that
Speaker 1: out I think makes my list as well.
Speaker 2: Bill, thank you again. Every year this lecture changes and
Speaker 2: just gets more and more fascinating. So thanks again for
Speaker 2: coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Pleasure to be with you.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us here at One Day University. Sign
Speaker 2: up on our website one dayu dot com to become
Speaker 2: a member and access over seven hundred full length video
Speaker 2: lectures from the world's finest professors. You can also download
Speaker 2: our app there. You can learn more about today's episode
Speaker 2: and watch University of Pennsylvania Professor William Burt White's lecture
Speaker 2: on the Most Powerful People in the World, as well
Speaker 2: as his talks on shifting world policy, US foreign policy,
Speaker 2: and more. Join us next time when we take a
Speaker 2: journey into the human brain.
Speaker 3: I think it's much more helpful to understand the memory
Speaker 3: system as a system that really evolved more to help
Speaker 3: us figure out how to problem solve in the future
Speaker 3: than it did to accurately reflect the past. When it
Speaker 3: gets into the real world memories of people's pasts, they're
Speaker 3: not at all accurate.
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