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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Yep, you guessed it.

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Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. Guys. We made

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Speaker 2: it to Sunday. It is Sunday, June twentieth, and we

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Speaker 2: have a stacked night of headlines. So listen to this.

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Speaker 2: Luigi Mangioni he may actually have his charges dropped. We're

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Speaker 2: going to unpack that. There's also been an arrest in

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Speaker 2: this main Paddle border killing. We thought it was a

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Speaker 2: serial killer, but it turns out it was a teenager.

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Speaker 2: But then we have first and foremost Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: a host of Body Bags. He also appears on our

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Speaker 2: documentaries and all of our podcasts. He is the guy

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Speaker 2: to talk about all things forensics, and he's going to

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Speaker 2: be breaking down some of the latest developments in this

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Speaker 2: dentist case in Colorado he's been accused of killing his

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Speaker 2: wife allegedly with eye drops. And also the Mercedes Vega case,

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Speaker 2: so that's one that's very close to Joseph's heart, so

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Speaker 2: we'll be digging into that as well. I'm Stephanie Leidecker

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Speaker 2: and I head up KAT Studios, where we get to

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Speaker 2: make true crime podcasts and documentaries, and I am here

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Speaker 2: every night with Courtney Armstrong. Our host will recognize her

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Speaker 2: voice from so many of our podcasts and also she's

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Speaker 2: an extraordinary crime producer and body move in. You'll also

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Speaker 2: know her from Netflix's jonef with Katz, Emmy award winning

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Speaker 2: I might add. So we're here to break it all down.

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Speaker 2: First up, we're going to talk to Courtney. Courtney Armstrong

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Speaker 2: give us a little background information on our first case. Well,

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Speaker 2: if any of this is true, then this is one

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Speaker 2: dirty dentist. We Corporate Seedings are about to enter their

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Speaker 2: second week and it's for the murder trial of the

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Speaker 2: Colorado dentist. It's a guy named James Oliver Craig. He

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Speaker 2: is accused of fatally poisoning his wife. Her name was Angela.

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Speaker 3: She was a forty three year old mother of six children,

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Speaker 3: and allegedly he did this poisoning with a little mix

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Speaker 3: of cyanide.

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Speaker 4: And tetras hydrozolene.

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Speaker 3: Good good better said over the counter eyedrops, and he

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Speaker 3: put this mix into her protein shape. And the further

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Speaker 3: allegation is that he did all this in order so

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Speaker 3: he could pursue a new romantic life and make things

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Speaker 3: easier for him and his mistress. So the defense challenges

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Speaker 3: this roundly, and they are saying that the warrants on

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Speaker 3: how large the scope was on the digital evidence is

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Speaker 3: way too big and needs to be pulled back on

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Speaker 3: the prosecution side, and they're also aiming to discredit forensic

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Speaker 3: and toxicology findings. So they're doing all that and the

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Speaker 3: last which if this man is guilty, I find it deplorable.

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Speaker 4: He's also really casting.

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Speaker 3: Doubt on his now deceased wife, Angela's character and suggesting

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Speaker 3: that she was suicidal.

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Speaker 2: And wasn't the whole stick that she was feeling suicidal.

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Speaker 2: Therefore he was aiding to kill her because he didn't

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Speaker 2: want her to live without him. That was the first.

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Speaker 5: Attempt, So this is the second time he's poisoned her. Right,

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Speaker 5: he poisoned her a while ago and she like caught

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Speaker 5: him and when confronted with this, what are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Why are you trying to kill me?

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Speaker 5: He was like, well, you know, I'm feeling suicidal and

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Speaker 5: I know you don't want to be without me, so

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Speaker 5: I was just going to take us both out.

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Speaker 2: I'm paraphrasing and trying to be a little succinct, but yeah.

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Speaker 4: That's the gist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exist, And when we were talking about this, I

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Speaker 2: guess Thursday night. Yeah, you know, we had kind of

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Speaker 2: maybe thought why wouldn't she leave him? You know, six children,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is an attempt on your life and

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Speaker 2: you know it. And we sort of speculated that maybe

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Speaker 2: it was because of their religious beliefs. And actually April,

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Speaker 2: one of our Crime Crew listeners, called in and she

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Speaker 2: kind of gave us some clarity on that, which was, yes,

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Speaker 2: he was a member of the Mormon Church I believe right,

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Speaker 2: the Church of Latter day Saints. But you know, she

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Speaker 2: also said that they're not like against opposed one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent against divorce, but rather they do make every effort

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Speaker 2: to keep a family together in a marriage. You have

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Speaker 2: to respect that, of course, of course, So thank you

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Speaker 2: for that tidbit, April. We really appreciate you listening. And

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Speaker 2: then we have Joseph Joseph Scott Morgan, host of Bodybags.

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Speaker 2: Here you are live and in person, what do you

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Speaker 2: think about this case.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's been one of those cases has been floating

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Speaker 6: about for some time. I'm intrigued by it because I've

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Speaker 6: had other cases where eye drops have been used that

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Speaker 6: I've covered, but to this extent. And I think the

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Speaker 6: foolishness that's involved in this is that this guy is

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Speaker 6: medical professional and dentists or it's not surprising he would

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Speaker 6: away from the eye drops that we're talking about snat

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Speaker 6: here with SINA testing sign on. There's a certain amount

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Speaker 6: of that they can use because over the years, because

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Speaker 6: it's been used for gold extraction, like if you're trying

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Speaker 6: to extract gold from or you can use it. But

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Speaker 6: those days of long since past, there was some kind

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Speaker 6: of dental association with that in the past. But he

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Speaker 6: was looking for something, and here's the keys, looking for

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Speaker 6: something that is going to give a sense that a

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Speaker 6: person just suddenly went into spontaneous cardiac arrest. One thing

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Speaker 6: he's not counting on is if she did, she would

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Speaker 6: be well within the parameters based on her age and

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Speaker 6: health to do an AUTOSSI. So you can just simply say,

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Speaker 6: you know, she had a heart attack and we're going

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Speaker 6: to move on with our lives. At this point, in time.

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Speaker 6: It was very fool party on his part.

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Speaker 4: And Joseph, are these ingredients do?

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Speaker 3: I have never tasted eye drops In my mind, I

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Speaker 3: feel like they would taste salty, and certainly to my knowledge,

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Speaker 3: I've never tasted cyanide.

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Speaker 2: Is there a taste or his last words, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: actually took a little taste of my eye drops today curiosity,

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Speaker 2: just to see if it had like a salty taste.

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Speaker 2: I don't recommend this at home just obviously we're hearing

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Speaker 2: a story about death coming from this, but I think

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Speaker 2: a little little drop isn't going to be the death

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Speaker 2: of me. And it had a salty no, it's not.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and it does have it's kind of a saline

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Speaker 6: kind of thing that's going on here, And I think

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Speaker 6: the problem was, or the idea was to kind of

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Speaker 6: slow off the thing. There's low dosages over a period

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Speaker 6: of time and building it up. Sinoid is an interesting element.

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Speaker 6: First off, you've got three different major forms of sinide.

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Speaker 6: He was using sinide potassium potassium cyanide, but there's also

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Speaker 6: a hydrogen sinide, which interestingly enough, I've had experience with

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Speaker 6: in the board. Did you know that it gives off

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Speaker 6: the smell of burnt almonds or bitter almonds, and only

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Speaker 6: forty percent of the population can actually smell it. I

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Speaker 6: worked multiple sinide cases involving hydrogen sinid. I'm blind to it.

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Speaker 6: I'm part of that population that can't smell it. But

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Speaker 6: physicians I've been around can so an interesting little world

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Speaker 6: that he's entered into. Here. Poisoners, to me are fascinating

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Speaker 6: because they have a very particular personality unlike any other

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Speaker 6: group of killers that are out there. Oh really, they're

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Speaker 6: generally major cowards.

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Speaker 5: Because they don't want to have their hands on it, right.

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Speaker 5: They want to put it in something and walk away,

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Speaker 5: and I have nothing to do with it after that, right, Like,

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Speaker 5: they can't have the active in the.

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Speaker 6: Killing, right, And they can put as much distance if

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Speaker 6: you go back to even the talent all poisonings, they

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Speaker 6: put as much distance as they can between themselves and

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Speaker 6: the poisoning itself, and that way they're kind of throwing

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Speaker 6: people off scent and nothing comes back to them. Of course,

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Speaker 6: modern forensics it often does.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 5: Well, you're listening to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm

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Speaker 5: body movin and I'm here with Stephanie and Courtney. We're

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Speaker 5: joined by the lovely and talented Joseph Scott Morgan, and

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Speaker 5: we are talking about the dentist murder in Colorado, and

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Speaker 5: I understand we have to talk back.

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Speaker 2: Can we hear the talk about?

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Speaker 7: Hey, ladies, love the show. I just want to get

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Speaker 7: your guys's opinion on what strategy you think the defense

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Speaker 7: is going to try to take for the dentist murders.

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Speaker 7: I just know that this man, being a healthcare professional,

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Speaker 7: knew good and well what poison could do to a

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Speaker 7: body and what it would do to this woman he

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Speaker 7: claimed to love. I just don't understand what his defense

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Speaker 7: attorneys are going to do, and.

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Speaker 8: I really do feel for them.

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Speaker 7: What are your fast thoughts?

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Speaker 2: That's a good question.

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Speaker 5: I mean, as Courtney pointed out, you know, they're basically

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Speaker 5: trying to paint Angela, the victim, the wife that he murdered.

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Speaker 5: They're trying to paint her as like emotionally unstable and suicidal.

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Speaker 5: The defense attorney, her name is Ashley Whitman, that's Craig's

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Speaker 5: defense attorney, kind of portrays Angela as like emotionally private,

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Speaker 5: distressed and deeply influenced by her faith, but potentially suicidal.

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Speaker 5: And they suggest that she might have even poisoned herself

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Speaker 5: rather than Craig doing it. They're also kind of using

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Speaker 5: a legal argument that the warrants were way too broad

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Speaker 5: and not you know, tailored to this crime. So they're

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Speaker 5: questioning the digital forensics because they found like a Gmail

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Speaker 5: account that Craig, the dentist had used to like search

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Speaker 5: for the cyanide and he was doing crazy search terms

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Speaker 5: like how much cyanide does it take to kill a person?

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Speaker 5: Or how to make a poisoning look like a natural death,

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Speaker 5: And so they're saying that the scope was just too large.

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Speaker 5: So they're attacking the police being so targeted on the

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Speaker 5: dentist kind of like they did with Karen Reacase in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: And Massachusetts is called the Boden defense.

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Speaker 5: I don't know what it's called in Colorado for you

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Speaker 5: even if they have it, but if somebody knows, give

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Speaker 5: us a call eight eight eight thirty one crime or

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Speaker 5: use the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app. But thank you

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Speaker 5: for the talkback. On top of that body.

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Speaker 3: So, in addition to all the defense, yeah strategy that

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Speaker 3: you just laid out, this dentist, James Tolliver, Craig is

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Speaker 3: really going to crazy lengths if you believe the testimony

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Speaker 3: of his child that he shared with Angela, the victim

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Speaker 3: that allegedly the dentist sent jailhouse instructions to his daughter

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Speaker 3: for how to create a deep fake video of the victim,

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Speaker 3: Angela asking for the chemicals.

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Speaker 2: Like, that's sane, kid in a situation. I mean, obviously

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Speaker 2: we're dealing with a very deranged man. Right, people get divorced.

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Speaker 2: We even just heard from April. You know, if this

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Speaker 2: is not even a religious thing, it happens, it's devastating

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Speaker 2: for a family, anyone who's gone through a breakup of

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Speaker 2: that high and it's it's really difficult. So that aside

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Speaker 2: it happens, At what point do you think that murdering

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Speaker 2: the mother of your children, six of them? I might

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Speaker 2: add that that's the best route for you to have

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Speaker 2: an open path to a new relationship and at its

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Speaker 2: core is there money at its core? And then to

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Speaker 2: on top of that, involve one of your children to

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Speaker 2: create a deep fake video. I mean that in and

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Speaker 2: of itself is insane, Like can we throw away the

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Speaker 2: key on this guy?

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Speaker 5: He's trying to do everything, Like didn't he try to

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Speaker 5: hire another inmate to kill the lead investigator in this case. Yes,

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Speaker 5: that's what's been imported. He's doing he's so extra, he's

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Speaker 5: doing way too much. Yeah, he might just put to sleep. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and then I didn't know that he did this to

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Speaker 5: his daughter. That's crazy.

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Speaker 6: To your point, doing too much, I think is key here.

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Speaker 6: He's taking, you know, because he's he's combining this through

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Speaker 6: these two agents together. The eye drops as well as

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Speaker 6: this poisons taking almost a shotgun approach, and it's kind

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Speaker 6: of a broad spectrum approach. And you know, there were

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Speaker 6: only traces of syanide that were found. So I really

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Speaker 6: am this is me projecting, so you can tell you

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Speaker 6: or leave it. But I'm wondering if he had been

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Speaker 6: dosing with the tetra for a period of time and

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Speaker 6: was meeting with no success, called no joy on that,

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Speaker 6: and then went in and decided to add this element

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Speaker 6: of cyanide over a period of time, hoping that the

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Speaker 6: two combined with one another would lead to this cardiac arrest.

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Speaker 6: And here's another bit to this. You really wonder if

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Speaker 6: it had gone on any longer, if he was going

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Speaker 6: to add some other element to this, wouldn't that be

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Speaker 6: a fascinating consideration? Unfortunately they you know, they didn't get

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Speaker 6: to her soon enough. She's dead now and there's nothing

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Speaker 6: anybody can say or do. It's smacks. It actually has

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Speaker 6: a little bit of Chad Davell in it. To me,

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Speaker 6: it does. Oh, I really want to think about what

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Speaker 6: he did to his wife. Yeah, Tammy dave Bell and

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Speaker 6: I think about that, Yeah, and kind of that, you know,

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Speaker 6: trying to get started on this new life and poor

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Speaker 6: Tammy wound up dead in bed with a frothy tone

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Speaker 6: issuing from her nose and her mouth.

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Speaker 5: Well, we're going to dig into that, put a pin

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Speaker 5: in that for the next segment after commercial when we

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Speaker 5: come back, I'm going to be digging into Joseph's comment

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Speaker 5: about this being maybe Davel related.

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Speaker 2: Right now, we're talking about that dentist in Colorado accused

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Speaker 2: of murdering his wife, mother of six, with eye drops

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Speaker 2: and maybe a little arsenic and cyanide. Later in the show,

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Speaker 2: we're also going to be unpacking the Mercedes Vega case,

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Speaker 2: one that's very close to Joseph's heart. And then, as

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Speaker 2: you guys know, the gag order in the Idaho student

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Speaker 2: murders trial or lack of trial has been lifted and

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Speaker 2: now we're getting some new information that we're going to

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Speaker 2: be sharing shortly. So back to the dentist, we have

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Speaker 2: a talkback.

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Speaker 9: Hey, Gus, love your show. I have a quick question.

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Speaker 9: So the dentists allegedly sent a picture to his mistress

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Speaker 9: of his dying moth. Could this get her in trouble?

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Speaker 9: Could do something to her?

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Speaker 2: Oh that's a good question, because I had seen an interview.

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Speaker 2: First of all, thank you for the question. I had

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Speaker 2: seen an interview of this air quotes girlfriend. I think

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Speaker 2: they had been texting and it wasn't super according to her,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't that close of a relationship just yet. Anyone

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Speaker 2: of you know differently correct me if I'm wrong. So

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Speaker 2: I don't think that she would be really held culpable

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Speaker 2: in any way because maybe she just didn't really know

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Speaker 2: the staff of his real life. I think he was

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Speaker 2: a liar, liar pants on fire.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like this guy, this dentist, was involved

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Speaker 3: with multiple people over multiple.

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Speaker 4: Times in his life.

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Speaker 3: He's had a series of affairs and also he allegedly

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Speaker 3: used a website seeking dot Com oddly advertised himself as

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Speaker 3: quote Jim and Waffles.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what that means.

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Speaker 2: That sounds horrible. It sounds horrible, horrible, not so sexy.

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Speaker 2: But he also claimed that he had a net worth

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Speaker 2: of ten million dollars and was in search of some

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Speaker 2: sugar babies. Meanwhile, he was facing bankruptcy.

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Speaker 3: They'd have had real, very serious financial struggles, and yet

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Speaker 3: here he was purporting to be worth you know, ten million?

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Speaker 2: Are you kidding me? So somebody was actually dishonest on

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Speaker 2: their dating profile.

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Speaker 4: That weird. He wasn't sixty one, he.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't sixt o'donna's By the way, Jim and waffles a

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Speaker 2: bit of an oxymoron, but you know my own heart,

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Speaker 2: does it.

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Speaker 5: Mean like he enjoys being healthy and eating or working out,

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Speaker 5: but also enjoys a dude or.

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Speaker 3: Either it's not Jim that way, it's j I am oh, okay, so.

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Speaker 2: Stranger waffles and that is Jim reference to Booze, No Jim,

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Speaker 2: j I am right.

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Speaker 4: Oh, but Jim beam. I mean, honestly, if I had

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Speaker 4: a dating.

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Speaker 3: Profile, but yeah, if Jim anything to you, Actually, this

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Speaker 3: is so bad, after all, I've.

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Speaker 2: Never heard of it.

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Speaker 5: I want to get back to something Joseph mentioned in

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Speaker 5: the previous segment. He had mentioned that the stentist murderer.

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Speaker 5: You know, he used as a summary real quick. He

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Speaker 5: used eye drops and he put a potassium cyanide and

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Speaker 5: arsenic in these eye drops and then put them in

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Speaker 5: his wife's pre workout shakes, and she, unfortunately she passed

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Speaker 5: away from being poisoned. And we were talking about it

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Speaker 5: looking like maybe a normal kind of death, and Joseph

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Speaker 5: had mentioned it kind of harkened him to Amy or

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Speaker 5: Tammy de Bell, and it made the hair in the

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Speaker 5: back of my next stand up, Joseph, when somebody dies

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Speaker 5: from arsenic and or cyanide or individually, does the medical

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Speaker 5: examiner or the corner whoever's doing the autopsy, does this

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Speaker 5: show up on like a standard box that they would run.

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Speaker 5: Is there signs that they look for? Is it standard

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Speaker 5: to look with these signs? I have so many questions.

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Speaker 6: Okay, if you're thinking about heavy metals like arsenic, that

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Speaker 6: is something that can be searched for, is readily searched for.

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Speaker 6: We do it a lot in fire deaths actually, because

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Speaker 6: with fire it produces that's one of the byproducts of fire.

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Speaker 6: You'll find people that have have heavy metals in their

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Speaker 6: systems because they're around furniture and interior point they begin

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Speaker 6: to break down a lot of stuffs made up plastic

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Speaker 6: eye drops. No, no, but I got to tell you guys,

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Speaker 6: as prevalent as this has become, and if I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 6: it's rooted. This whole theme is rooted in a movie

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Speaker 6: from years ago. And I can't remember which one. Maybe

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Speaker 6: somebody out there knows, but there was something in popular

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Speaker 6: culture where somebody used used this and now it's taken off.

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Speaker 6: I'm sure that wasn't their intention, and it's not ringing

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Speaker 6: a bell. I'm just having a little bit of a recall. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 6: little bits all I have. But the thing about it

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Speaker 6: is when we do a toxicology and this can apply

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Speaker 6: to any case, Okay, So in any case that we're

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Speaker 6: talking about, when a body goes in for autopsy, we

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Speaker 6: do what's referred to as a standard panel. So we

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Speaker 6: do a blood draw, we do a urine draw, and

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Speaker 6: we do a vitreous draw, which is fluid from the eye,

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Speaker 6: and we will run for things like cannabinoids, opiates, benzos,

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Speaker 6: coke mes, anything like that. It runs the gamut and

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Speaker 6: it gives us an indication as to what's there. That's

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Speaker 6: called quant qualitative amount, and then it gives us a

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Speaker 6: lethal level with quantitative because everything has a lethal level,

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Speaker 6: you know that's out there, any kind of agent. When

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Speaker 6: you're thinking about arsenic and cyanide essentially individually, what you're

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Speaker 6: going to need is probably about two hundred to three

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Speaker 6: hundred milligrams of either one of those agents. But if

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Speaker 6: he's just dosing it at a real low dosage, it

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Speaker 6: would be like I said, it's kind of a slow walk.

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Speaker 8: You know.

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Speaker 6: You might have somebody that's presenting with like shortness of breath.

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Speaker 6: Maybe they're dicretic, they're drowsy, they suddenly slip into a coma,

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Speaker 6: and that can mask any number of things that are

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Speaker 6: out there. And trust me, when a patient rolls into

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Speaker 6: an emergency room, and this is not to cast dispersions

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Speaker 6: on emergency personnel, God blessed for what they do. When

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Speaker 6: you got somebody going into cardiac arrest, they're not thinking

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Speaker 6: no drops right there, of course, not from a preventive

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Speaker 6: preventatives standpoint. They're not. That's not where their brain is.

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Speaker 6: That that rest with people in mind in mafield. To

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Speaker 6: try to ascertain that you're listening to.

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Speaker 5: True crime tonight, I'm iHeartRadio, I'm Body Movin. And I'm

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Speaker 5: here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Lydecker and were joined

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Speaker 5: by the lovely and smart and talented Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 5: And we're right in the middle of talking about the

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Speaker 5: dentist who killed his wife with the eye drops with

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Speaker 5: cyanide and arsenic and we're going into oh and Yogi

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Speaker 5: has something to say about that.

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Speaker 2: Yogi has because we were just I was doing a

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Speaker 2: quick search because Joseph, I sort of remembered the same

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Speaker 2: thing in popular culture, hearing about something with vizine And

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Speaker 2: actually it wasn't even a scripted TV show, It was

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Speaker 2: real life. In twenty eighteen, Lanna Clayton. She was a

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Speaker 2: nurse who pled guilty to manslaughter and maliciously tampering with

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Speaker 2: food or drugs. She was basically taking vizine drops and

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Speaker 2: putting it in our husband's drink every day. And she

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Speaker 2: claims that she wasn't trying to kill him, she was

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Speaker 2: just trying to make him sick. And she's facing twenty

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Speaker 2: five years and was found guilty. Wow, you're thinking of

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Speaker 2: the same thing as I am, Joseph, because they did

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Speaker 2: I remember this now because they had actual video of her,

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Speaker 2: like on surveillance. She was like, I don't know what,

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Speaker 2: I don't know why he's not feeling well. Huh, So

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Speaker 2: he just seems to be taken ill.

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, they have her on video taking vizine drops and

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Speaker 2: like punching them in her drink. And then they got

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Speaker 2: the surveillance video and you see her like going over

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Speaker 2: to like, I'm not laughing. It just sounds so outlandish.

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Speaker 2: So she go over to the blender and like pop

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Speaker 2: a little something something in there, and then she goes

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Speaker 2: and serves it up to her husband, who's like, where's

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Speaker 2: my drink.

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Speaker 6: Pretty unbelievable, if I remember correctly, I've covered cases on

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Speaker 6: body bags. By the way, we're coming up on our

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Speaker 6: four hundredth episode of this upcoming week. We have done

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Speaker 6: cases like this before, and I could have sworn that

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Speaker 6: I've covered a case involved in Munchausen's Send her on

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Speaker 6: byprop See where the mother was poisoning a child wound

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Speaker 6: up killing a child. And these things are all over

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Speaker 6: the world. That's they're everywhere. And to your point earlier, Steff,

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Speaker 6: where you mentioned the taste of it, it's going to

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Speaker 6: have kind of a salty taste undertaste. But he put

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Speaker 6: this thing into a sports drink. You know you're not

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Speaker 6: going to detect it at all. It's just not going

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Speaker 6: to be on the radar. Again, this goes back to

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Speaker 6: how much was he applying at any given time and

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Speaker 6: other damning piece to this from a proscatorial standpoint directed

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Speaker 6: at him, he should have known better because he's a

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Speaker 6: medical professional. Okay, that cuts both ways. People say, well,

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Speaker 6: he's a medical professional, so he knows about it. You're

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Speaker 6: damn right. He does know about it, so that even

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Speaker 6: puts more responsibility on him. He knows what the typical

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Speaker 6: outcome might be going down this road.

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Speaker 3: Well, it seems like the doctor Joseph or the dentist,

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Speaker 3: I know he's a medical professional, that he did take

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Speaker 3: to Google quite a bit.

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Speaker 4: At least that's what the prosecution said.

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to give you a couple of things

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Speaker 3: he said, and I'm curious what your take is on this.

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Speaker 3: So the dentist, he created a Gmail account that he

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Speaker 3: used specifically to order the arsenic and the cyanide, and

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Speaker 3: he searched for terms like undetectable poisons or how to

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Speaker 3: make murder look like a heart attack, and how many

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Speaker 3: grams of pure arsenic will kill a human? And the

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Speaker 3: last thing, this isn't a question he wrote in but

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Speaker 3: his wife Angela had over four hundred times the normal

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Speaker 3: level of the eye drops in her system.

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Speaker 4: That seems like a wild amount.

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Speaker 6: It is. It is a lot. And again going back

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Speaker 6: to you know, when I mentioned the standard panel that

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Speaker 6: we do, it's important for everyone out there to understand

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Speaker 6: that when we look at drugs in particular, and even

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Speaker 6: things that are non pharms SoCal agents, they have what

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Speaker 6: to refer to and kind of burn this into your

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Speaker 6: mind to have what to refer to as therapeutical levels.

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Speaker 6: There is for everything. You can even have therapeutic level

434
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 6: of cocaine. Cocaine is still used as an analogy that

435
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 6: comes in a liquid form, So you have what are

436
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 6: considered to be of therapeutic levels, which is kind of okay,

437
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 6: if I give this much, it's not going to kill

438
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 6: the person. This is what physicians are looking at when

439
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 6: they're trying to gauge all of this. When you begin

440
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 6: to get up above those levels, you start to get

441
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 6: into lethal, almost lethal, and then lethal levels where the

442
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 6: body just can't it can't maintain the chemistry is all

443
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 6: thrown out of whack at that point in time, and

444
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 6: unfortunately that's what happened with this foresol Wow.

445
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 2: By the way we figured out the movie, the pop

446
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 2: culture reference producer t was nice enough to give us

447
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: some info on that. What was it again, Taha?

448
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 9: That was the movie Wedding Crashers where Owen Wilson's character

449
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 9: spiked Bradley Cooper's drink with advising and eyedrops.

450
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: Oh, well done, Taha, Well done, Taha. That was Taha's

451
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: big debut. We're so happy to have him. And also

452
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: we're going to talk later about the Luigi Mangioni update

453
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: that apparently the prosecution is saying that they have real

454
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: proof that hippo violations and other things should be the

455
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 2: reason for his charges to be dropped. So we want

456
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: to hear from you guys. Call us anytime eight eight

457
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: eight three to one Crime, or you could always leave

458
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 2: us a talk back on the iHeartRadio app, or you

459
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 2: could hit us up on our socials at True Crime

460
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 2: Tonight's show on TikTok at Instagram, or at True Crime

461
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 2: Tonight on Facebook.

462
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 5: So where should we begin, ladies. I kind of wanted

463
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 5: to unpack this deep fake business. Yes, committed what a request?

464
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 7: So?

465
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: What a request?

466
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 5: So just to summarize again briefly, the dentist accused of

467
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 5: killing his wife with poisonous eye drops which contained obviously

468
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 5: the eye drops, the arsenic and potassium cyanide.

469
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: He has asked.

470
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 5: Okay, First of all, he asked an inmate to help

471
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 5: take out the lead investigator of the case.

472
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 2: That's number one.

473
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 5: And number two which I find most shocking and just

474
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 5: absolutely deplorable, is that he wrote a letter to his

475
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 5: young daughter and asked his daughter gave actually pretty like

476
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 5: illicit instructions like, you know, do this to in step one,

477
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 5: step two, step three, to create like a deep fake

478
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 5: where this deep fake would represent his wife her mother

479
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 5: asking for the poison, which it is.

480
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 2: Crazy to me that you would do this to your daughter.

481
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 5: And he says like, I love you, I'm sorry to

482
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 5: even ask you this, but I need you to help

483
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 5: me out, and he starts telling her what he needs

484
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 5: her to do.

485
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: Can you guys believe this?

486
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: No, it's so deplorable. It's so deplorable. It's actually really

487
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 3: hard to make your mind to go there. And then

488
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: just further more, or I don't know why. I find

489
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 3: the details of what you're describing is so discussing on

490
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: its face, but then.

491
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 4: The smaller detail.

492
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: He's writing to his daughter and saying, oh, we're going

493
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 3: to use little code word. If you agree to do

494
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 3: this fake, then respond to me and say, quote, the

495
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 3: candy was good. If you don't agree to do it,

496
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: you're going to respond the candy was disappointing, and this

497
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 3: dentist James referred to everything in this as the Memories project.

498
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: To his daughter's project.

499
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 4: Wow, how disgusting.

500
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 2: The letter also included like directions.

501
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 5: He said, you need to buy a cheap laptop, install

502
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 5: a private network, and a dark web browser which would

503
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 5: be like an Onion or tore browser, and paying for

504
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 5: the project using a prepaid Visa gift card. The daughter

505
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 5: testified to all this, and he told her the video

506
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 5: must appear to have been made in the weeks before

507
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 5: she died, so he wanted her to alter basically the metadata,

508
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 5: which we've talked about before. But what metadata is? He

509
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 5: wanted her to modify this metadata like I just she

510
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 5: had to get up there and testify to this.

511
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 2: This poor girl, Oh, like talk about losing your mother

512
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: in such a horrible traumatic way. She was in the

513
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 2: hospital for a very decent amount of time, I might add,

514
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 2: so that's traumatic in and of itself. Then having to

515
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: attend services, funerals, et cetera. And now you're dealing with

516
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: your dad trying to you know, run one over on you,

517
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: like emotionally speaking, there should be charges for that. Wow,

518
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: and he said he choked.

519
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: Well.

520
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 5: The letter said the second oldest daughter out of the

521
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 5: six was chosen to do this favor because she is

522
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 5: most like her mother, stoic and practical, and is the

523
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 5: most technology adept. She testified all this, I just I

524
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 5: feel so bad for her. She's twenty. I mean, she's

525
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 5: not a child, but it's still her dad. Yes, she

526
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 5: is their child's their kid. So not only do you

527
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 5: lose your mom in horrific fashion, now your dad is

528
00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 5: asking you to cover up the murder.

529
00:27:59,640 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: Basic.

530
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 8: I don't know.

531
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 5: I just my heart really breaks for that family. That's

532
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 5: really terrible. Yeah, it's I just don't know what to say.

533
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 3: Now, there's a lot more of what was going on

534
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 3: in the trial. I think we'll probably get to it

535
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 3: later in the week because there is a lot to impact.

536
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 3: They're actually doing an incredibly expeditious job of coving through witnesses,

537
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 3: so we should go through them.

538
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 4: But I have a question for you, Joseph.

539
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 3: And my understanding is that the dentist is accused of

540
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 3: kind of putting the final nail in the coffin when

541
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 3: he went to visit his wife, Angela in the hospital.

542
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: Are you familiar with that, of giving an extra I'm

543
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: fairly certain. Yeah.

544
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: They it's so interesting.

545
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 3: So the prosecution alleges, and they said this in I

546
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 3: want to say, even they're opening statements that when the

547
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 3: dentist went into the hospital.

548
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

549
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: The prosecutor is a guy named Ryan Brackley, and he

550
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 3: said he the dentist didn't go into that room to

551
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: save Angela's life. He didn't go into that room to

552
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: fight for her life or support her. He went into

553
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 3: that room to murder her, to deliberately and intentionally end

554
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 3: her life with a fatal dose of cyanide. So I'm curious, Yeah.

555
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I got it. My first take on this, it

556
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 6: actually reminds me of the case from the fifties, which

557
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 6: is fast. I recommend to anybody that has never looked

558
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 6: into this case, look up the and Jet. That's one

559
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 6: one name. And Jet Lyles case out of making Georgia,

560
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 6: and she killed four or five people, and she was

561
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 6: actually taking care and these are family members. She was

562
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 6: taking care of them at the hospital. She would bring them.

563
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 6: She had a restaurant and she would make food and

564
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 6: take them, take the food to her family. And I'm

565
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 6: talking about even a daughter, her former mother in law,

566
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 6: two husbands, and she was putting hand poisoning in there

567
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 6: and the hospital couldn't figure out why in the world

568
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 6: are they not getting better? You know, hairs falling out,

569
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 6: all his skin rashes, and they finally go into chin

570
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 6: They all went into cardiac arrest finally. But anyway, it

571
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 6: reminds me of that, and you can get access to

572
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 6: an individual. Remember what I said earlier. Poisoners are cowards anyway.

573
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 6: They're not the type of people that are going to

574
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 6: go up and take a weapon and you know, brutally

575
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 6: murder somebody like we think, you know, an execution style thing.

576
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 6: They're not going to beat somebody to death. They're going

577
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 6: to do something that is as less of a burden

578
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 6: on them as they possibly can, where they can maintain stealth.

579
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 6: And the fact that he would do this is not surprising.

580
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 6: If what the prosecutor is a legending alleging is true?

581
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 6: Things like this have happened before. There's nothing new under

582
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 6: the sun, as they say. So yeah, if you just

583
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 6: look at the age at loss case, the smacks of that.

584
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 4: And I have a question.

585
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's really an answerable one, but

586
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: if you are going to group kind of poisoners together

587
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 3: and it sounds like they are a specific type. By

588
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: the way, if you have as many questions for Joseph

589
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 3: Scott Morgan as we do on this particular dentist case,

590
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 3: or if you have some other forensic question burning your heart,

591
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: use this time to call eight eight eight three to one.

592
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 4: Crime and Joseph will get it answered.

593
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 3: But this guy, this dentist, also seemed to have a

594
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: very strange fascination with suicide, whether because he you know,

595
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: we already talked about the fact that he was alleging

596
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 3: at two different times that his wife was suicidal and

597
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 3: saying that he himself was suicidal, and then also while

598
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 3: he was in prison, was saying he instructed inmates to

599
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: plant fake suicide letters of in his garage and truck

600
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: to claim that Angela wrote them like I don't know

601
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: to suicide and poison.

602
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: He was kind of time this guy, I know, these

603
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: kids and a job. He's a dentist. Why does he

604
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 2: have to be sex such a weirdo. He needs to really,

605
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: really really stop it and quit it because he is

606
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: up to no good in a many categories.

607
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 4: Well hopefully he is.

608
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: I mean, he is in jail on trial the streets.

609
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 5: I know, it's just wild to be like he even

610
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 5: had the cyanide in the arsenic ship to his dental office.

611
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: And wasn't he discovered because like his colleague.

612
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

613
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 5: Right, that's right, and realized his wife he was in

614
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 5: the hospital dying.

615
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 6: I mean, what do I mean to talk about an

616
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 6: epistotal moment for that? Can you imagine being the office

617
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 6: at it seems so this guy could really care less

618
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 6: about collateral damage along the way. And of course, to

619
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 6: y'all's point about this precious twenty year old, she's this

620
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 6: suburden she's gonna to bear the rest of her life,

621
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 6: not to mention siblings are going to have to bear.

622
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 6: You know, they're going to know what dad did, mom,

623
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 6: and they try to drag Sissy into this thing as well.

624
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 6: And that's always going to hang in the air with

625
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 6: his family. Just like the coworkers. You know, what does

626
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 6: he expect? You know, you receive a shipment like this

627
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 6: and they what are they going to do? Remain Mama,

628
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 6: I don't think so, and so everything was collateral damage.

629
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 6: It would seem to me that he didn't necessarily have

630
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 6: an idea of killing him himself. He's obsessed with suicide,

631
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 6: but it's almost as if he assessed with suicide as

632
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 6: a means to commit murder.

633
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 5: So do we know, you guys, I haven't really been

634
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 5: following on this all that closely. I'm kind of kind

635
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 5: of getting into it right now as we learn about it.

636
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 5: Do we know how did they find out that she

637
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 5: had been poisoned? Did it happen because this office staff

638
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 5: was like I do know the office staff recognized that

639
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 5: he was buying this stuff and then also that they

640
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 5: looked at his wife's symptoms and compared to and realized

641
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 5: it might be related. But did that happen long after

642
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 5: she was buried and they thought it was like a

643
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 5: suicide or do we know?

644
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 2: Aionise?

645
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 3: I know timeline wise that it was incredibly quick. So

646
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: March fifteenth, this is all in twenty twenty three, So

647
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: March fifteenth. It's Angela is third hospital visit. It's the

648
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: final time she collapsed, and it's when she took the

649
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 3: medicine that allegedly doctor Craig tampered with. And she's in

650
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 3: the er. Her brother brought her in. She feels terrible.

651
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 3: Two pm that day has a seizure. She has placed

652
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: upon life support. And also on this day, Craig's doctor

653
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 3: Craig's business partner learns of the cyanide delivery and notifies

654
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 3: medical staff.

655
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 4: So this is on the fifteenth.

656
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 3: The next day, the sixteenth, officers begin speaking with colleagues

657
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 3: and staff about doctor Craig, doctor dentist Craig's behavior. Two

658
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 3: days after that, March eighteenth, Angela is declared dead, and

659
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 3: one day later, doctor James Craig is arrested for first

660
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 3: degree murder.

661
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 2: Okay, so this all happened while she was in the hospital.

662
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 4: Why don't didn't you poison to your place of business?

663
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 4: How about that?

664
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Courtney Armstrong, Yeah, listen, loud's say it clear for

665
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: the back of the room, everybody, do not send poisonous

666
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: to the workplace. Sounds like we're at the club talking crime,

667
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 2: doesn't it. Yes, we're going to go straight to a talkback.

668
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 8: Hey, y'all, this is Stephanie Love y'all for real skis.

669
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 8: So pertaining to the grooming topic, coerceive control is aimed

670
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 8: more at the tactics used in ongoing domination and manipulation.

671
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 8: Grooming is a precursor to this because it focuses more

672
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 8: on the process to build trust, enabling future.

673
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 4: Abuse and exploitation.

674
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 8: So we need a word that relates the process of

675
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 8: grooming to the tactics of coercive control. Although researchers just

676
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 8: use adult grooming to differentiate.

677
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: That's interesting. We are creating a swell here that is

678
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: so great. First of all, thank you Stephanie for that

679
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 2: talk back. We have the smartest listeners. Imagine we love

680
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: you for real ski soo yeah, for real Skis. I

681
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: haven't heard that in a hot minute. I hear it

682
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 2: for real Skis. That's an interesting point. So adult grooming

683
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: could be considered one variation of this.

684
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 5: She said that course of control, the precursor to that

685
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 5: is the grooming. So the grooming is what gets you

686
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 5: to trust them, Right, You do all these things to

687
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 5: get them to in your good graces, and you start

688
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 5: you know, you can trust me, and you start, you know,

689
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,479
Speaker 5: earning their trust by fulfilling promises and.

690
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 2: You know, things like that. I'm assuming, and then what

691
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: comes next is the course of control. So we and then.

692
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 5: Of course you know what she said at the end though,

693
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 5: is that what people are saying is there's grooming and

694
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 5: then there's adult grooming.

695
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: So we still don't know like the Manson killers, for example,

696
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: would that be considered maybe people who were groomed to kill? Possibly? Yeah,

697
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: I would think so that course of control. So sorry,

698
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: I lost my mind just there. Sorry, that's like number one.

699
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: Stephanie's looking okay. Yeah, I don't know what just happened.

700
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: I always raised my hand and knock down my equipment.

701
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: I apologize.

702
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 6: Well, it doesn't hurt. When you apply a sergic acid

703
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 6: to a great group of people and then talk to

704
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 6: your right you pretty much get them to do anything

705
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 6: you want them to do. So yeah, and that was

706
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 6: one of Manson's He would fade dosing and so you know,

707
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 6: you've got everybody else drop and ask and he's the

708
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 6: only same one in the bunch. Imagine that measure. He's

709
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 6: the only same one in the bunch for that moment.

710
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: Tom, Wait, is that right, So I don't know that

711
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: I ever knew that as Joseph Scott Morgan. So we're

712
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: referring to the Manson killings that was, you know, many

713
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 2: many years ago, but infamously because of his teachings air quotes,

714
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: the women who followed him kind of did the killing

715
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 2: for him, and they would kill for him, and he

716
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: then got to keep his hands clean, although eventually you know,

717
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: behind bars for that. That's interesting, Joseph, can you say

718
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: that one more time? I don't know that I totally

719
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 2: absorbed that fully.

720
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, it has been a legs over the years said

721
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 6: he would dose the group, the family, if you will,

722
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 6: with LSD and then he would launch into these dodge

723
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 6: trops where he's preaching to these individuals and they've become

724
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 6: very vulnerable at that point in tom now, so they

725
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 6: would all be stuff they absorbed.

726
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, they would all.

727
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: Be like tripping right on acid.

728
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 5: And they're sitting at that you know a band that

729
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 5: you know, what is it, the ghost Town little Ranch

730
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 5: they had in the middle of the desert around a campfire,

731
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 5: and they're all tripping, right, they're all tripping in these

732
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 5: span ranch spawn ranch, Yes, and they're all tripping and

733
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 5: he's you know, the sober one there, which is you know,

734
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 5: he probably the only one sounding normal, which is insane

735
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 5: to think about Charles Manson being the only one that

736
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,479
Speaker 5: sounds normal and putting in this helter skelter, this race

737
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 5: war is coming.

738
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: We gotta do this. We got it, you know. Yeah.

739
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: I've heard that before too. I just don't know if

740
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: they've proven it.

741
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 6: Jim Jones did the same thing though, yeah, only without

742
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 6: the acid, you know, but he did the same thing.

743
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 6: He drug a bunch of people away.

744
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

745
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 6: They didn't have their families, they didn't have their support system.

746
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 6: They believe anything. One most horrible things you can ever

747
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 6: listen to are those tapes when everybody's taking their life

748
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 6: and drinking poison.

749
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, unbelievable. That's scary. Well, listen, we're going to be

750
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: right back because we still have to get into the

751
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 2: Mercedes Vega case with you, Joseph Scott Morgan. So we'll

752
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: be back. Stay with us. This is true crime tonight.

753
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. And listen, we're

754
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 2: breaking all things down around forensics. Joseph has been really

755
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 2: itching to talk about the Mercedes Vega case. So we'll

756
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: be getting to that very very soon. But first, Courtney

757
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: Armstrong has some new headlines for us.

758
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is kind of a shocking one. There had

759
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 3: been speculation that the woman, she's a marine bologist, Sunshine

760
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 3: Sunny Stewart, she was out paddleboarding on the second of July.

761
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 3: She was out by herself on a little pond, and

762
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 3: we didn't know until just very very recently why the

763
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 3: authorities said that she was murdered. They kind of declared

764
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 3: to a homicide quick, excuse me, not murder, homicide, and

765
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 3: it was thought maybe it was intertwined within an alleged

766
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 3: serial murderer, but a seventeen year old local suspect they've

767
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 3: been identified as Devin Young. They were arrested just a

768
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: couple of days ago, and Sonny Stewart died from strangulation

769
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 3: and blunt force trauma, which is just such an absolute

770
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: tragic waste strength.

771
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 2: Kid that's up close to personals. Right.

772
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 3: Yes, and it just seems that this guy is seventeen

773
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 3: year old. He was vacationing nearby with his family.

774
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 2: So he wasn't even from the area. Wow, it doesn't

775
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: show he was on holiday at that same site with

776
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: his family. Can you imagine you're at this you know,

777
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 2: lovely vacation with your family. It's near this gorgeous lake,

778
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden word spreads that there's been

779
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 2: you know, potentially am and there's a murderer on the loose,

780
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 2: and then you find out it's your seventeen year old son.

781
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: So he basically hit her over the head and strang

782
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: and she was beloved as crazy personal there is any.

783
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 3: Connected Well, it's strangulation and blunt force trauma, So I

784
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 3: don't know.

785
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you gain, Joseph.

786
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 2: Stretching our heads like it if almost ethologist?

787
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 6: Well yeah, so, and listen, it's not uncommon to have

788
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 6: have a combination of bludgeoning and strangulation at the same

789
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 6: time because they're both very handsy. You've got someone that

790
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 6: is utilizing and this is assuming that it's going to

791
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 6: be a manual strangulation as opposed to a literature strangulation.

792
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 6: So he would have put his hands around her neck.

793
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 6: There's also a high probability that when they did her autopsy,

794
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 6: it's one thing if you that's the things he's struck

795
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 6: in the head. Blunch force trauma is what they're talking about.

796
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 6: You can have blund force trauma anywhere on your body,

797
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 6: but if you have it to your head, there's going

798
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 6: to be hemorrhage there at various different levels. But in

799
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 6: the neck you also get hemorrhage and strap muscles where

800
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 6: you know, the little entertwined muscles that overlie the layernix

801
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 6: there and depend upon how much pressure you get, you'll

802
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 6: have more hemorrhage in those areas. And it goes to

803
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 6: this narrative of including the airway. And then of course

804
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 6: we look for the petiki, the little punk tate hemorrhages

805
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 6: and the salt tissues of the eyes, and that means

806
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 6: that they're under so much pressure when they're trying to

807
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 6: uptake oxygen and they're struggling, blood can't flow back and

808
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 6: so those little vessels burst. And you generally see it

809
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 6: with manual strangulation, that is, you know, in the eyes.

810
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 6: You don't see it in many other circumstances other than

811
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,479
Speaker 6: childbirth and constipation most of the time. That's truth. So yeah,

812
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 6: that's those two things couple together and it sounds like

813
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 6: a frenzy killing, you know, because this is not something

814
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 6: somebody put a lot of thought into. I'm just going

815
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 6: to go and we don't know if he picked up

816
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 6: a rock or stick or whatever it was, but he

817
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 6: got his hands on it.

818
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 5: I wonder if there was like an I'm just I

819
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 5: might immediately go to legal Why why would the seventeen

820
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 5: year old kill this woman in such a personal way?

821
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: And I can't.

822
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 5: I mean, obviously I'm never going to know unless he confesses, right,

823
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 5: But I mean maybe they got an argument or something

824
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,479
Speaker 5: and he just raged out.

825
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: I don't know, but like.

826
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 6: Argument or lust murder. Argument or lust murder would be

827
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 6: my two. Uh, they were both on this, I would

828
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 6: think they.

829
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 2: Were both on vacation.

830
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they might.

831
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 6: If he's in an adjacent area and he's just kind

832
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 6: of washing her from the bushes. You never know what's

833
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 6: going on in the mind of someone. And Ollie Waits

834
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 6: is all he's got to do, isolated area for her

835
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 6: to beach that that paddle board and then come after her.

836
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 5: Well, because she was found on that island right right

837
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 5: in the middle of the lake that she was on

838
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 5: that she knew very well.

839
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: You know, she was a very trained person and she

840
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 2: knew those waters extremely well. She had many many friends.

841
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 2: I'm sure we've all seen them speaking out on the news. Locally,

842
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,959
Speaker 2: et cetera, and the main state police haven't given any

843
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 2: sort of a motive to our knowledge.

844
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 6: Interesting anticipate that they would release any information like that.

845
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: Not the same yet, not yet at least.

846
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 5: No, he's well, the kid's been named. He's seventeen years old,

847
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 5: but we know his name. His name is Devin Young.

848
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 5: He appeared in court, he's entered a denial, and he's

849
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 5: currently being held at the Long Creek Youth Development Center.

850
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 5: Prosecutors are seeking to try him as an adult. I

851
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 5: think they're going to get it too. He's close enough

852
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 5: in age.

853
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 6: Yeah. Anytime you start to get up in that range

854
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 6: of seventeen, yeah, we see that happening with the case

855
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 6: in Georgia where the two parents were shot in the bed.

856
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 6: You know that happened when she was sixteen, she said, now,

857
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 6: and they just sepped her up on charges I think

858
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 6: last week, if I'm not mistaken, And she's being charged

859
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 6: as an adult as well. So yeah, you get that

860
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 6: seventeen year range.

861
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joseph is right.

862
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 5: And that's Sarah Grace Patrick and she is alleged to

863
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 5: have killed her her mom and stepfather in Georgia, and

864
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 5: she was sixteen when it happened she had turned seventeen

865
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 5: and then they arrested her and she is being tried

866
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 5: as an adult. So I expect that they're going to

867
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 5: probably do the same for Devon here and wow, interesting.

868
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 2: I'm looking at photographs of Devin right now. We can

869
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: post them on her website and again allegedly, allegedly allegedly,

870
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: but you know, he's sitting here on some posts that

871
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 2: I'm seeing, and he has, you know, a big rifle

872
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: staunchly in his hand. You know, he's a pretty nice

873
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: sized guy, so he could have probably taken her over

874
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: pretty quickly. So yeah, this could just be something that

875
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: was a random interaction. But enough is enough. It's really tragic,

876
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. Wow, what else you got, Courtney.

877
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, We'll continue followollowing both the Sonny Stewart and the

878
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 3: Sarah grayce Patrick cases as they evolve. So Luigi Mangione

879
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 3: and listen, I have heard it split fifty to fifty, Luigimanngione, LUIGIMANGIONI, So.

880
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 2: I know we say it's different each time. It kind

881
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: of works both ways, is how I think we should

882
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: land on it.

883
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: So Luigi's attorneys have accused the Manhattan's DA office of

884
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 3: violating HIPPA by fabricating a court date and for issuing

885
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 3: a false subpoena to get his medical records.

886
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 4: So this is really bad news.

887
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 3: And I don't know if this would just be an

888
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 3: over a zealous prosecutor or what is happening, but apparently

889
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 3: the DA they made a fake court date to get

890
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 3: information sent straight to them for Mangione's medical records, which

891
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 3: is not good, I think.

892
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 5: I mean it's and this is a second, I think,

893
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 5: the second one that I'm aware of, where they're alleging

894
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 5: that the prosecution has done something. Remember early on, right

895
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 5: after our show started, they started accusing the jail of

896
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 5: listening in on the conversations between Luigi Menngione and his lawyers,

897
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 5: and they said that it was because the lawyers were

898
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 5: using a phone number that they hadn't alerted the jail

899
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 5: was their number.

900
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 2: Just crazy to me. So normally when you call somebody in.

901
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,439
Speaker 5: Jail, it's recorded, obviously, but if it's your lawyer, it's

902
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 5: not recorded. Well, those calls were recorded because they didn't

903
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 5: know it was the lawyer, and so they alleged. Anyway,

904
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 5: there's a lot of hanky panky going on with the

905
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:40,280
Speaker 5: prosecution and defense.

906
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 2: That's interesting. No, what I'm saying he didn't do it.

907
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 2: They're just saying, well, this is like culpable stuff based

908
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: on paperwork or lawyering. But no, one's saying he didn't

909
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 2: actually commit the crime. Right, No, but they are.

910
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 3: The DA's office that the lawyers are pushing for court

911
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 3: sanctions against the DA's office and are seeking dismissal of

912
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 3: the murder charges or at a very minimum and evidentiary

913
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 3: hearing on the subpoenas legitimacy.

914
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,399
Speaker 2: So well, no, is it not because they didn't have

915
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 2: their claiming that there wasn't a proper warrant given and

916
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: that therefore the information with this Luigi Mangioni or Luigi

917
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: Mangione should be tossed out. Again, I don't know that

918
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 2: it's saying that the crime itself didn't happen.

919
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 5: Now, they're not saying the crime didn't happen. I think

920
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 5: you're right, Stephan. I think they're saying that any information

921
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 5: that they've attained from his health insurance company shouldn't be

922
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 5: admissible in court because the search warrant was yeah, right

923
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 5: through the prices tree. It's like a Frank's hearing, like

924
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 5: a hearing.

925
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 2: That's my understanding as well.

926
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 6: So they're not gonna they won't be able to utilize that.

927
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 6: But I take you back. I have a baseball analogy everybody.

928
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 6: Most people understand the basic rules of baseball. You get

929
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 6: three strikes, you don't get four. And this is very

930
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 6: baseline stuff for Prosecutor's office that they should be fully

931
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 6: aware of. They should understand they don't have to go

932
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,439
Speaker 6: a long way because look, they've got videography of this

933
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 6: person shooting this executive. This is not a real.

934
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 2: Heavy murder weapon. Didn't they find the murder weapon with

935
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 2: them or none?

936
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, well they recovered it and so yeah, and you know,

937
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 6: I'm thinking, why do you need to color outside the

938
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 6: lines here relative to prosecuting this case? What's the end

939
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 6: goal here in doing this? Now, granted we don't know

940
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 6: everything that's going on behind closed doors, but when you're

941
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 6: talking about evidence, which in fact, these medical records are

942
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 6: evidence and they're going to be viewed or we're going

943
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 6: to be viewed. But now you know, this is a

944
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 6: wasted moment, and also it further blackens the reputation of

945
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 6: the prosecutor's office. And it's a it's not an enviable

946
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 6: position to be on because let me tell you something,

947
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 6: guys moving down the road. If you think the intensity

948
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 6: on some of these race recent cases we've had is

949
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 6: going to be and it was intense, ain't seen nothing yet.

950
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 6: When this thing drops, there are going to be the

951
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 6: hot lights of the media are going to be all

952
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 6: over this thing. It'll be wall to wall coverage.

953
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 5: Well, and I think you're right, but New York Right,

954
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 5: New York doesn't allow filming in the from the courtroom,

955
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 5: so there's there's going to be intense media from the outside.

956
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 5: And then federally will be right, there's going to be intense,

957
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 5: intense media on this because people are really hot about

958
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 5: this case.

959
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 3: Oh incredibly, and there is a lot of shenanigans going on.

960
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 3: I mean, we should diget into this later in the

961
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: week at a little more clarity, because I mean, Manngione's

962
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: attorneys they're arguing that pursuing both the state and federal

963
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 3: prosecutions concurrently violate both the Fifth Amendments double or violates

964
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 3: the Fifth Amendment's doublic jeopardy cause. And also we'll see

965
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 3: if this does get bigger that the actual the illegally

966
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 3: getting the records because yeah.

967
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: They're calling for dismissal of dismissals. Yes, yeah, exactly where

968
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 2: the medical records.

969
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 5: That's right, that's not going to happen, but they are

970
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 5: calling for I do think sanctions may be in order.

971
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 5: I mean, if the DA truly did make up this

972
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 5: court date, you can't be doing that too, Tana Warrant.

973
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 5: There's going to be a Frank's hearing about that, and

974
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 5: it's going to be dismissed, I would imagine, right.

975
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and listen, we're going to be breaking down this

976
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: Mercedes Vega case product Joseph, but before we do, we

977
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 2: actually have a talk that Hi.

978
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 10: My name is Mollie. I'm calling from Pennsylvania about the

979
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 10: fran Coburger case. First of all, it's very disgusting that

980
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 10: this man comes from my home state. I just have

981
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 10: this uneasy feeling and I won't feel like this is

982
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 10: all done until after I think the hearing is the

983
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 10: sweet woman twenty third after hearing that there's still a

984
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 10: chance he could take back his please. I just feel

985
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 10: like this man is not capable of any feelings or

986
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 10: emotions other than power and manipulation. So I'm not usually

987
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 10: in the conspiracy, but it was horrible feeling that he

988
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 10: likes calling the shots for the power, and I would

989
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 10: not be shocked if at the last minute he pools

990
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 10: back his plea to then try to have a trial gush.

991
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 2: By the way I read to think about that is

992
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: such a good point. We were talking about this earlier,

993
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people are feeling uneasy.

994
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: And by the way, that wasn't even a talk back.

995
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 2: That was our first voice message. So if you call

996
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 2: eight eight eight three to one crime kind of like

997
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 2: an answer machine, you can leave a message and boom,

998
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: you're on the show. Yeah, that trial is happening on Thursday.

999
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of people are having this

1000
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 2: similar uneasy, unnerved feeling about this clown.

1001
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think a lot of people are also worried,

1002
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 5: you know, to our voicemail or let Lever's point that

1003
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 5: he's going to basically get you know, they're going to

1004
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 5: do the victim impact statements, they're going to do the sentencing,

1005
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 5: and at that point Brian coober can can turn to

1006
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 5: Ann Taylor and say I want to appeal, and he

1007
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 5: can appeal, even though the agreement is that he can't appeal,

1008
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 5: but he can there you know, the judge said, not

1009
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 5: everything is finite. So people are very, very very concerned.

1010
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 5: And I think that our caller is spot on that

1011
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 5: Brian Coberger has to have control and he's not gonna

1012
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 5: go down so easy.

1013
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 2: But we'll see.

1014
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 5: We're going to see what happens on Thursday the twenty third.

1015
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 2: That's a sagary. Kaylee's father, Steve Gonzalvez, what would happen

1016
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: if that happens to go book wild?

1017
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 5: He is, yeah, speaking of speaking of, we do have

1018
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 5: an update from Steve Gonsalves. Actually the gag order was

1019
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 5: listed and are lifted, and you know, more information is

1020
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 5: starting to come out. And one thing that we learned

1021
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 5: in its trigger warning, there was a dateline show an

1022
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 5: episode a couple maybe two months ago where there were

1023
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 5: a bunch of leaks and we've been talking about it

1024
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 5: quite a while on this Well, we learned that in

1025
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 5: these leaks that Brian Coberger was looking up specific sexual

1026
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 5: kind of things and he was looking for unconscious women, right. Well,

1027
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 5: we learned from Steve Colensalvus that it added to that

1028
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 5: he was also looking for gagged women and that when

1029
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 5: he came upon you know, Maddie and Kaylee laying in

1030
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 5: bed that night that he happened upon part of his fantasy.

1031
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 5: These women were unconscious, they were you know, they were

1032
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 5: passed out. They had been drinking, and we learned that

1033
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 5: poor Kaylee, lovely Kaylee had basically indents on her mouth.

1034
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 5: And I'm using my hand. You can't see me, but

1035
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 5: if you look at if you hold your hand up,

1036
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 5: you have the wedge in between your your thumb and

1037
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 5: your forefinger, and it's he implied that she was kind

1038
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 5: of gagged with his hand between her the wedge, that

1039
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 5: little web there, And that's pretty pretty sad, Joseph, what

1040
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 5: can you tell us about that, Like what kind of

1041
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 5: pressure would it take to leave those kind of indents

1042
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 5: and what would the corner or the medical exam.

1043
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 6: What you see manifested with with pressure being placed directly

1044
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 6: over the mouth, and it can be placed with a pillow.

1045
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 6: I've seen it with a pillow. But also the bare

1046
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 6: hand is that the person that is being restrained like this,

1047
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 6: they're not willing to be restrained, so they're fighting back.

1048
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 6: And just imagine if everyone at home will kind of

1049
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 6: place your hand over your mouth and hold your hand

1050
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 6: static and move your head back and forth, there's a

1051
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 6: particularly forcefully you know, she's in the throes of fighting

1052
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 6: for a lot. You'll have these little indents on the

1053
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 6: interier of the mouth and also if folks at home

1054
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 6: will take the tip of their tongue and feel for

1055
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 6: that little connected tissue between your gum and your lift

1056
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 6: that's called the fremulum. You've got one on the top,

1057
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 6: one the bottom. And one of the things we look

1058
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 6: for in suffocations is those little frimulum. They can lacerate,

1059
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 6: and so you'll get lacerations from the teeth as well.

1060
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 6: I would suspect I don't know this for a fact,

1061
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 6: I suspect that that is what they were referring to.

1062
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 6: So we have someone that is having pressure applied directly

1063
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 6: to their mind, to their face while they're being attacked

1064
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 6: with it not and you can just imagine the horror

1065
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 6: show that that is.

1066
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 5: I don't even want to think about it, Like it's

1067
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 5: just so devastating. And you know the fact that they

1068
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 5: know this and repeating it to news has just got

1069
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 5: to be really hard for them. And you know, we

1070
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 5: hear it tru from tonight. Our heart goes out to

1071
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 5: them and we definitely support, you know, their endeavors, and

1072
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 5: it's my understanding that they have decided to go to sentencing.

1073
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 5: You know, initially they weren't going to go, right we

1074
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 5: learned that they weren't going to go, and I think

1075
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 5: they've changed their mind. You know, I think there's a

1076
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 5: lot of power in not going, and I definitely supported

1077
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 5: them not going because even acknowledging his existence is giving

1078
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 5: him some kind of power. And I think that the

1079
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 5: Gunsalvest family kind of we're like, we're not going to

1080
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,439
Speaker 5: even address him. That was like taking their power back.

1081
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 5: But I'm glad that they decided to go. I'm glad.

1082
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And listen, we'll be following along and you know,

1083
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 3: hope that things go as they should and this was

1084
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 3: all start.

1085
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, we will keep following up.

1086
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 3: Listen, if you have questions about Brian Coburger or upcoming

1087
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 3: we were about to be talking about Mercedes Vega, or

1088
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 3: really any forensic questions, then you should call eighty eight

1089
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 3: three to one Crime because we have expert Joseph Scott

1090
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 3: Morgan here with us tonight, and the US is Stephanie Ladecker,

1091
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 3: Body Mooven and I am Courtney Armstrong. And to add

1092
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 3: to this party, we actually have a caller, Michelle.

1093
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 4: On the line.

1094
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 11: Hi, Joseph, this is Michelle. Longtime fans, and I'm curious

1095
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 11: about your opinion. Hey, how are you and super excited

1096
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 11: the Aaron Patterson case. I'm not sure if it's familiar,

1097
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 11: but she is the mushroom poisoner out of all Familia

1098
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 11: who was just recently convicted, right, what is your opinion

1099
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 11: on that case? And like, look a profile would be

1100
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 11: like Aaron Patterson.

1101
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, thanks for calling. Thanks for asking the question, Michelle.

1102
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 6: I actually did an episode of body Bags on this

1103
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 6: case because I was fascinated. But the fact that well,

1104
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 6: first off, I think they nailed it with this case,

1105
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 6: you know, and what she did, what she put this

1106
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 6: family through, because this is a horrible way to die.

1107
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 6: I don't know if you have any members of your family.

1108
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 6: I do that are mushroom hunters that go out and

1109
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 6: they search for mushrooms out from Louisiana. One of the

1110
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 6: most popular mushrooms down there are Chantline's and a very

1111
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 6: hearty mushroom, great for cooking. She supposedly comes from that background.

1112
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 6: And let me tell you something about the death cat mushroom.

1113
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 6: It's green when you see it, it's almost like you

1114
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 6: know those little Amazonian frogs that are orange or red

1115
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 6: and they say stay away from them. Oh yeah, you

1116
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 6: should do the same thing with a death cat mushroom.

1117
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 6: And anybody that's worth their salt that spends their time

1118
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 6: doing that would not collect these and used them to

1119
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 6: cook with. So she's actually tasked this out by using

1120
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 6: using the mushroom to add to beef wellington, which is

1121
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 6: kind of this involved process. What's really interesting though, is

1122
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 6: that the adults got dosed with this stuff, the kids

1123
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 6: did not, So she actually targeted members of the family

1124
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 6: with this mushroom. And again it goes back to what

1125
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 6: we were talking about earlier with the mindset of poisoner.

1126
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 6: Their stealth is the key to this, and also for knowledge.

1127
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 6: Most of these people are pretty highly intelligent and they

1128
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 6: know what combos to use. She seems like she was

1129
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 6: more on point than the dentist was. And this lady

1130
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 6: is not a healthcare professional, but she knows for fact

1131
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 6: these things are highly toxic and she wanted to take

1132
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 6: out the family and boy did she ever do a job. Yeah.

1133
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 6: I think they got it right.

1134
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 2: Thank you for so much for calling Michelle. We really

1135
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 2: appreciate it. Joseph. Do you think that she Aaron Patterson

1136
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 2: on Australia that killed her in laws?

1137
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 6: Right?

1138
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 5: They were her in laws with these mushrooms. We were

1139
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 5: talking earlier about the dentist in Colorado and how you know,

1140
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 5: poisoning somebody is sort of like a coward's move and

1141
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 5: it's a way to like kind of distance yourself from

1142
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 5: the actual process of murder, right, because you're not really

1143
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 5: actively participating in their death. You give it to them,

1144
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 5: they take it, and you just kind of walk away.

1145
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 4: Right.

1146
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 2: Do you think that this kind of played into her

1147
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 2: as well.

1148
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, with the Patterson thing, one of the things she

1149
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 6: was saying initially was that, Yeah, I went out and

1150
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 6: collected mushrooms, and you know, it was this kind of

1151
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 6: innocuous thing. I do it all the time. And oh

1152
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 6: I happened to get some bad mushrooms and put them

1153
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 6: another Hell you did. You got a large batch of

1154
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 6: these things, you mix them up, and you targeted specific members.

1155
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 6: And yeah, it was her in laws, but she also

1156
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,439
Speaker 6: had people like her husband that were poisoned as well,

1157
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 6: and he survived. And let me tell you something, the

1158
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 6: medical course that he had to go through. They had

1159
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 6: to pull them back from the edge of death multiple times.

1160
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 6: It's a multi organ system failure event. It is a

1161
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 6: horrible way to die, absolutely horrible. Does physicians, Yeah, it can,

1162
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 6: it absolutely can't. Multiple systems the lungs delivered liver in particular,

1163
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 6: because liver is like a big filter in the body.

1164
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 6: It's always trying to filter out toxins. And boy, I'll

1165
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 6: tell you what, she chose a hell of a hell

1166
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 6: of a methodology in order to facilitate this.

1167
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:30,439
Speaker 1: H Wow.

1168
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 5: I just kind of wonder like if there was some

1169
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 5: kind of like guilt at play and that's why she

1170
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 5: chose these mushrooms, or I happen to kind of believe

1171
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 5: she chose the mushrooms because it's what she knew, right,

1172
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 5: because she said that she was like always kind of

1173
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 5: going mushroom hunting and you know, and it was just

1174
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 5: a way for her to be like, oh, it was

1175
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 5: an accident.

1176
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 2: I didn't mean to But even though.

1177
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 6: No, yeah, I think there's a touch of sadism here too,

1178
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 6: because if she knows mushrooms, she knows how painful this is.

1179
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 6: And this was not a quick death. This is not

1180
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 6: a quick death. This is not something and these people

1181
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 6: would have been in agonizing pain, and they would have

1182
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 6: had an awareness of that. It's not like they just

1183
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 6: kind of magically fall over when this happened.

1184
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 3: Right, And Joseph, you said that there were children at

1185
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 3: the table.

1186
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 4: I had that detail had escaped me.

1187
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, they were separate their food from the rest of

1188
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 6: the group. Yeah they did. And so so again this

1189
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 6: goes to a premeditative event. You've got specific intent here

1190
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 6: to do grievous bodily harm, murder and you have targeted somebody. Okay,

1191
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 6: that's what's fascinating about this case. And many people in

1192
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 6: America hadn't heard about it or to anybody read up

1193
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 6: on this because it's a wild case. It's not something

1194
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 6: that I ever recall us having in America. I'm not

1195
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 6: saying it hadn't happened, only there were very small slices

1196
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 6: of things. But check it out. Check this case out

1197
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 6: out of Australia.

1198
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, Joseph, and thank you Michelle

1199
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 3: for calling in.

1200
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight an iHeartRadio. We're talking

1201
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1202
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In and the host of Body

1203
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 2: Bags Forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and he has a

1204
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 2: close a case, rather very close to his heart, the

1205
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 2: Mercedes Vega case. And we've been really wanting to talk

1206
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 2: about this one for a while, so we're going to

1207
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 2: get into it pretty quickly here, but again we will

1208
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 2: be following this and kind of unpacking this, not just tonight,

1209
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 2: but we're going to make sure that Joseph comes back

1210
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 2: and also continues the discussion. So, Joseph, where should we

1211
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 2: begin with this case?

1212
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 6: Well, I think the fact that you've got a burning

1213
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 6: car is where, you know, because it really kind of

1214
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 6: got into the conversation. Can you imagine going down the

1215
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 6: road and you see a car that's on fire on

1216
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 6: the side of the road, and I think that many

1217
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 6: of us would be inclined to stop and go and

1218
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 6: inspect it to a certain degree. But when you walk

1219
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 6: up on the car, fully involved car, you see there's

1220
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 6: a fellow human being inside of it. And the big

1221
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 6: question that this begs is how and why? Because this

1222
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 6: is not like an automobile crash where you have an

1223
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 6: explosive event. You're talking about a fire that is set

1224
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 6: within the cabin of the car and it's fully involved.

1225
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 5: Right so just to bring everybody up to spin on

1226
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 5: what we're talking about. Mercedes Vega. She was a twenty

1227
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 5: two year old dancer from Tempe, Arizona. She had previously

1228
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 5: been a victim of armed robbery and was set to

1229
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 5: testify against one of the suspects in this case on

1230
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 5: the day she was found dead. And this happened back

1231
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 5: in April of twenty twenty three. An autopsy had revealed

1232
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 5: that she had blunt force injuries, a gunshot wound to

1233
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 5: the arm and bleach in her throat, indicating torture before

1234
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 5: she was set on fire, so of course in her car,

1235
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 5: not her car. She was found in a car that

1236
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 5: did not belong to her. She was found in a

1237
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 5: burning car. Arrests happened in December of twenty twenty four.

1238
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 5: There's been three men arrested, but the tail of their

1239
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 5: arrest is kind of complicated and it's a little bit

1240
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 5: too much to get into right now. So we're going

1241
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 5: to table that, maybe do it another night, because it

1242
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,560
Speaker 5: is a tale to tell about the talent of itself.

1243
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 2: It's a tail in and of itself, a juicy big one.

1244
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: While we have Joseph here.

1245
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 5: Like his time is so valuable and we really value

1246
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 5: his input on this kind of stuff.

1247
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 2: We want to talk about Yogi does too, my dog.

1248
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 5: We want to talk about the forensics in this case,

1249
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 5: because you know, these are important things that also tie

1250
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 5: back to the arrest, because they found fingerprints and the

1251
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 5: bleach in her throat. Can we talk a little bit

1252
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 5: about what kind of forensics they found, Joseph.

1253
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, we Canada, And I'd love to start with this

1254
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 6: gunshot wound because the gunshot woman that she is sustained,

1255
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 6: which is actually in one of her arms, is a

1256
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 6: non lethal angel And what was the term that you

1257
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 6: guys are that has been thrown about relative to this torture.

1258
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 6: I've seen so many times over the course of my

1259
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 6: career people being threatened with weapons in order to maybe

1260
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 6: give up information, and then to take it up to

1261
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 6: another step where you're going to fire around into someone

1262
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 6: in a non where you know, is a non lethal area,

1263
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:33,400
Speaker 6: and all the while the thing is escalating, you know.

1264
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 6: And then the added thing here is the fact that

1265
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 6: they had evidence that she had had bleach pouring down

1266
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 6: her throat. This is not something it can happen in

1267
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 6: one of two ways. Bleach will be applied many times

1268
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 6: to eradicate evidence, particularly when you have a case of

1269
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 6: sexual assault. This happens with some frequency because perpetrators think

1270
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 6: that it's going to get rid of any kind of

1271
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 6: evidence as far as semen or blood or whatever it

1272
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 6: is they think may have been left behind. But it

1273
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 6: can also be used as a methodology for torture. Bleach

1274
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 6: is highly caustic. For anybody who doesn't believe it. The

1275
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 6: next time you're cleaning with bleach, just pay attention to

1276
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 6: the smell in the room. That's one of the reasons

1277
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 6: they say, if you use bleach, you need been a

1278
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 6: well ventilated area. And you know I've used it, you

1279
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 6: know throughout my life. I've used in the more to

1280
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 6: clamp with it's actually eye watering, and that was in

1281
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 6: kind of a big open space. Can you imagine having

1282
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 6: the stuff poured down your throat in the midst of

1283
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 6: this escalating event where you've got people that are and

1284
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 6: I think it's people, not a person, where you've got

1285
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 6: people that are yelling and screaming at you. They've already

1286
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 6: presented a weapon and they're trying to extricate information from you,

1287
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 6: perhaps or trying to dissuade you from testifying against them.

1288
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 6: But once it escalates to this point, I think that

1289
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 6: all bets are off at that moment time. And the

1290
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 6: thing that's so horrible about this is that I think

1291
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 6: that she probably saw the end was coming. And the

1292
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,560
Speaker 6: fact that they recovered the forensic evidence that they did,

1293
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 6: and there are a couple of vehicles that are involved

1294
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:12,440
Speaker 6: in this. They actually did, in fact find one of

1295
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 6: the perpetrator's fingerprints in one area that tied one of

1296
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 6: these individuals specifically back to this event. And there's also

1297
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 6: this crazy thing where you've got these individuals who I'll

1298
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 6: kind of give you their point of origin. Their point

1299
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 6: of origin is around the Chattanooga, Tennessee area. Now they're

1300
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 6: they're all the way out out west. Now, what the

1301
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:34,160
Speaker 6: hell are.

1302
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 2: You doing in Arizona?

1303
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 6: Right?

1304
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 2: This is an Arizona from ten c right. Yep.

1305
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 5: They found a fingerprint under like a cup in one

1306
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 5: of the cars, and then another fingerprint of the other

1307
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 5: suspect on a bloody bag in the car that she

1308
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 5: was in.

1309
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,719
Speaker 6: From my understanding, yeah, and this is the thing about

1310
01:08:54,840 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 6: cars and fires, when fires are intentionally set, Okay, sometimes

1311
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 6: I don't think we've talked about very much here together

1312
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 6: but when you're talking about in arson, because this is

1313
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 6: an arson. Anytime somebody maliciously sets a fire, that's arson,

1314
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 6: even with a motor vehicle. Most of the time, I

1315
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 6: think that people believe that just throwing the gallon of

1316
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 6: gasoline on something that's striking a match, who it's going

1317
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 6: to make all the evidence just period. It doesn't. As

1318
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,639
Speaker 6: a matter of fact, you create more evidence because you've

1319
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 6: got a specific chemical signatures left behind by this accelerant

1320
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 6: and gas. If gas is what was used was the accelerant,

1321
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 6: it burns up really quickly. If you've ever been around

1322
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:37,680
Speaker 6: a gas fire where it just kind of goes like this,

1323
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,439
Speaker 6: it disspates really carefully, really quickly.

1324
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 4: It's not a fuel that is so terrifying. Joseph listen.

1325
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,800
Speaker 3: If you have any questions for a forensic expert and

1326
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 3: host of Body Bags.

1327
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 4: The podcast, give us a call. We're at eighty eight

1328
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 4: three to one Crime.

1329
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 3: We are discussing the really abhorrent and brutal murder of

1330
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 3: Mercedes Vega right now, jo Just I'm trying to picture

1331
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 3: everything you're talking about, which is, first of all, it's

1332
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 3: hard to picture.

1333
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 2: All of that.

1334
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 3: But in the planning, would the assumption be that the

1335
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 3: perpetrator or in this case, potential perpetrators, before they left

1336
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 3: the house, they had to get bleach, gasoline, a gun. Yeah,

1337
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:26,160
Speaker 3: like what goes on? Describe the preparation I suppose.

1338
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, And you think the other thing that you have

1339
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 6: to come equipped with is the will to do this

1340
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 6: sort of thing, because this is not some kind of

1341
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 6: light undertaking. You're talking about a fellow human being here,

1342
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:43,920
Speaker 6: this defenseless woman who's allegedly born witness to a bore

1343
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 6: witness rather to a robbery that she was or that

1344
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 6: she was robbed and she was set to test by

1345
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 6: in it. You have to have a will of iron,

1346
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 6: and not only you have to be pure evil in

1347
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 6: or do this a fellow human being, because this is torture.

1348
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 6: There many forms of torture. This is you're talking about

1349
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:06,560
Speaker 6: a really, really high level here. I think one of

1350
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 6: the big questions is is that when she's placed into

1351
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,600
Speaker 6: this car, you know, is she still alive at that

1352
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 6: point in time? Now, there are other injuries. I think

1353
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 6: that she sustained blunt force trumps. She may have been strangled.

1354
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:21,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, there found blood.

1355
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 5: So she exited her apartment and she's like in a

1356
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 5: parking garage and there's video surveillance and she walks to

1357
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:30,320
Speaker 5: her I think she has a Dodge charger. And they

1358
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 5: found evidence that she was attacked prior she was basically kidnapped, okay,

1359
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:38,320
Speaker 5: and they found blood at the scene of where her

1360
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 5: car was right, so they think that there was some

1361
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 5: sort of blunt force trauma that happened there to get

1362
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 5: this blood. And then of course she was taken in

1363
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 5: this Malibu, the Chevy Malibu that was caught on fire.

1364
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 5: But yeah, so prior to this though, in twenty twenty,

1365
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 5: she was a victim of an armed robbery and she

1366
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 5: was set to testify against her the man she identified.

1367
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 5: His name is cud Joe Young, and she was set

1368
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 5: to testify against him because she had picked him up

1369
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 5: out of a lineup, like, yeah, that's the guy who

1370
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 5: robbed me. And apparently this cud Joe Young just very quick.

1371
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 5: We'll get into it in other episodes a deeper dive.

1372
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:21,639
Speaker 5: But two other men were also arrested, and the common

1373
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:23,360
Speaker 5: threat that they all have is that they all use

1374
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 5: the same credit card at one point. So there's this

1375
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,719
Speaker 5: unknown person according to the AFFI David, there's this unknown

1376
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 5: person that I don't know the name of that. Let

1377
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:35,760
Speaker 5: all three of these men use this credit card, and

1378
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 5: that's the ties that bind them and the other two men.

1379
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 5: Since Sara Hayes and Jared Gray flew out from Chattanooga

1380
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 5: to Arizona, so there's also evidence, you know, that came

1381
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:49,640
Speaker 5: out and they did this, and then they left the

1382
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,759
Speaker 5: day after she was murdered, so that was the time.

1383
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 6: You have a criminal conspiracy. This second place here, and

1384
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 6: the fact that they're also in transit across state lines

1385
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 6: and all these things I would imagine that might be

1386
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 6: interested and that you mentioned. Listen, the area where the

1387
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:11,639
Speaker 6: FBI truly does dance is the area of kidnapping as well,

1388
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:16,520
Speaker 6: and that's certainly a federal offense, and so witness intimidation,

1389
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 6: all these other things that they could enjoin in on this.

1390
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 6: You know, it reminds me of another case that actually

1391
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:27,720
Speaker 6: originated out of Tennessee many years ago. And you know

1392
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,600
Speaker 6: that case was involving Channing Christian and Christopher Newsom and

1393
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 6: that was up in Noxill and both those young people

1394
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 6: were brutally sexually assaulted and also had bleach applied to

1395
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:41,680
Speaker 6: them and gasoline. Both those individuals and one of the

1396
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 6: most horrific cases in the history of crime in the

1397
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:49,599
Speaker 6: state of Tennessee, and that was many years ago, but

1398
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 6: it really sounds much like that case. I find it

1399
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 6: very interesting that both these cases have Tennessee ties. Was

1400
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 6: there some kind of pre knowledge of that and maybe

1401
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 6: that he used as a template here. I'm not saying

1402
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 6: there was any kinunt of sexual assault here, but the

1403
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 6: level of torture that occurred in that case out of

1404
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 6: Knox will rivals this and absolutely horrific stuff. The thing

1405
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:18,719
Speaker 6: about the fire though, is that, like I was saying,

1406
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 6: cars are very poor fuel. If you're going to maintain

1407
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,360
Speaker 6: a fire, it'll burn cloth seats, it'll burn the headline,

1408
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 6: or all these sorts of things.

1409
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:30,040
Speaker 4: Right, unbelievable. Joseph, listen.

1410
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:32,760
Speaker 3: We cannot thank you enough for the depth and breadth

1411
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:33,800
Speaker 3: of your knowledge.

1412
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 4: And listen.

1413
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you love Joseph as much as we do,

1414
01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 3: which would be hard, but if you do, you should

1415
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:45,120
Speaker 3: be listening to his hit podcast Body Bags. Also catch

1416
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 3: him in Katie's Studios documentary Idaho Student Murders.

1417
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:50,200
Speaker 2: We want to go to a quick talk back.

1418
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:52,480
Speaker 12: Hey, ladies, this is David in Massachusetts.

1419
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 9: Love the show.

1420
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:54,040
Speaker 6: Great format.

1421
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 12: There's a new trial coming up a couple of weeks

1422
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:59,640
Speaker 12: to trial with Brian Walsh in Cohasset, mass He's been

1423
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 12: acute stuff, murdering his wife a couple of New Year's

1424
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 12: eaves ago. And guess who the lead investigator is in

1425
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:05,840
Speaker 12: that trial?

1426
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:06,680
Speaker 4: You guessed it.

1427
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:10,599
Speaker 12: Michael Proctor, the same bubbling idiot who watched the Karen

1428
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 12: Reid trial and has already talked of not being able

1429
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 12: to use evidence because he went.

1430
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:15,679
Speaker 6: About it the wrong way.

1431
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:17,880
Speaker 12: So, body, you got to dig into this.

1432
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:21,679
Speaker 4: One called out, I direct call on the case.

1433
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 2: Yes, while on the scene.

1434
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 5: Well listen, I am prone to a Massachusetts person like

1435
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 5: whatever people from Massachusetts have to say. I'm all listening

1436
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 5: because I just love the way they speak. So yeah,

1437
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 5: I'm in Let's dig into it, Brian Walsh. What do

1438
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:35,800
Speaker 5: we know about it?

1439
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 4: Very little? We got to dig into this.

1440
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 3: There's been multiple trials and I know in court it's

1441
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,879
Speaker 3: been a mess, and the tie to Karen Reid is listening,

1442
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 3: The Karen Read effect is happening right now. Walsh's attorneys

1443
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 3: are using the Read case and they're arguing that Proctor

1444
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 3: he could have been biased, including in this case. They're

1445
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:02,679
Speaker 3: requesting access to all of his internal affairs. Oh yeah,

1446
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,879
Speaker 3: so it's really you know, you could say it appears

1447
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 3: to be helping Walsh's defense, but Walsh is accused of

1448
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 3: killing and just memorying his wife. There's a lot of

1449
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:18,720
Speaker 3: forensics that we will be getting into. There's a lot

1450
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:21,280
Speaker 3: of legalities. Honestly, we'll get into it and maybe we

1451
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 3: even bring it back around next time. Joseph's here for

1452
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 3: the forensic that's good idea. But yeah, there's a lot

1453
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 3: to this case. So David from Massachusetts, thank you so much.

1454
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 3: And body, I think you better.

1455
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 2: I better getective, Yester, get to it. I've heard of

1456
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:39,800
Speaker 2: this case before.

1457
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 5: I just don't remember the details, but the name sounds

1458
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:42,839
Speaker 5: like super familiar.

1459
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:47,479
Speaker 3: Another listener had DMed us. So we were planning to

1460
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:51,120
Speaker 3: start this soon. So yeah, I think because there have

1461
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 3: been several trials. But yeah, Stephanie, what do you think

1462
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 3: of having something with a connection to Karen Reid?

1463
01:16:58,640 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 4: Is that comes up?

1464
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,679
Speaker 2: HI find it this thumbs up. But you know, listen,

1465
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 2: the days of being a dirty coop or a problematic

1466
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:09,240
Speaker 2: cop or a biased cop is you know they're listening.

1467
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:12,440
Speaker 2: It's over. And I think that's why that case specifically,

1468
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 2: not that I'm saying all of the Canton Police Department

1469
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 2: or dirty in any way. But you know, we're looking

1470
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 2: up to our law enforcement not only to keep us safe,

1471
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 2: but to be fair, honest, and to work with integrity.

1472
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:25,760
Speaker 2: And if that isn't being put into play, I don't

1473
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,840
Speaker 2: think any of us can stand for it. So yeah,

1474
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 2: let the let the games begin.

1475
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 4: Well, that's for sure.

1476
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 2: In Procter specifically, like that's an alleged, alleged alleged, but

1477
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:40,600
Speaker 2: you know it was. It was a messy investigation the

1478
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:43,839
Speaker 2: Karen Read case. So if nothing else, I think we'll

1479
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 2: hopefully see less of that as a result, fewer solo

1480
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:50,599
Speaker 2: cups and the Tita sander Birch Moartula.

1481
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:52,519
Speaker 5: When you're talking about the Karen Read effect, you're not

1482
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 5: joking around, right, Yeah, like the sander birchmore her, the

1483
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 5: investigation into her death is being called into question because

1484
01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:03,120
Speaker 5: of the people that we're investigating, and they're all tied together.

1485
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm killer was a cop exactly, And I'm not

1486
01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:10,599
Speaker 2: convinced that some of the law enforcement associated with Karen

1487
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:13,559
Speaker 2: Reid's case. Again, I'm not convinced, And just make this

1488
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:16,000
Speaker 2: fact that there won't in fact be charges brought up

1489
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:17,800
Speaker 2: against them at a later date, and that some of

1490
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:19,760
Speaker 2: the things that we've been hearing in the press are

1491
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,920
Speaker 2: sort of pointing to that with a wink and a nod.

1492
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 2: So I think we'll be following that very closely. But yeah,

1493
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:28,240
Speaker 2: thank you for the message, great talk back, and I'm

1494
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:31,799
Speaker 2: with body Massachusetts. Yeah, I have on the show man.

1495
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:34,920
Speaker 2: No one's getting away with anything in Massachusetts, that's for sure.

1496
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 2: Thank you. So listen tomorrow we are back. Make sure

1497
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:41,760
Speaker 2: you join us last and PAP we're starting some new

1498
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,120
Speaker 2: cases this week as well. Also this dentist in Colorado,

1499
01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:48,639
Speaker 2: that trial continues. So thank you for the incredible night.

1500
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:52,160
Speaker 2: This is true crime tonight. We've been talking true crime

1501
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 2: all the time, and listen, have a great Monday morning tomorrow.

1502
01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:56,840
Speaker 2: Stay safe.