WEBVTT - From Impossible Burgers to Fake Steak 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:25.316 Pushkin. Let's talk about meat. It's delicious, very satisfying to 0:00:25.396 --> 0:00:30.396 cook and to eat, smells incredible on the grill. But 0:00:31.556 --> 0:00:35.596 at this moment in history, billions of human beings eating 0:00:35.676 --> 0:00:39.356 all that delicious meat has become something of a problem. 0:00:39.436 --> 0:00:42.836 Raising livestock and growing food for them to eat takes 0:00:42.956 --> 0:00:45.596 up a huge amount of the earth, an area the 0:00:45.636 --> 0:00:48.956 size of the Americas, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego 0:00:49.276 --> 0:00:52.796 in all, and the animals themselves make climate change worse. 0:00:53.236 --> 0:00:57.676 Cows methane, you know that story. These facts, though, are 0:00:57.756 --> 0:01:00.756 not going to be enough to change the way billions 0:01:00.756 --> 0:01:04.796 of people eat. Meat. Just taste too good, Our relationship 0:01:04.876 --> 0:01:07.876 with it is too deep. But what if we could 0:01:07.956 --> 0:01:11.076 nudge people not with facts or guilt trips, but with 0:01:11.156 --> 0:01:19.476 something delicious. I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is what's your problem. 0:01:19.516 --> 0:01:23.276 My guest today is Pat Brown, the founder of Impossible Foods. 0:01:23.756 --> 0:01:28.036 Pat's problem is this, how can you make meat without animals? 0:01:29.196 --> 0:01:32.716 Pat founded Impossible Foods in twenty eleven. Since then, the 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:36.836 company has received roughly two billion dollars in investment. Burger 0:01:36.916 --> 0:01:39.836 King now sells the Impossible Whopper. You can buy Impossible 0:01:39.876 --> 0:01:43.316 Burger patties and chicken like nuggets at the grocery store. 0:01:43.716 --> 0:01:46.716 But Pat doesn't come from a business background, or even 0:01:46.796 --> 0:01:49.276 really a food background. He got an m d and 0:01:49.356 --> 0:01:52.196 a PhD and worked for decades as a professor of 0:01:52.236 --> 0:01:56.916 biochemistry at Stanford. I had my dream job. I had 0:01:56.956 --> 0:02:01.356 awesome colleagues, awesome students, a great intellectual environment, all the 0:02:01.396 --> 0:02:05.396 funding I needed. I had no intention of leaving it. 0:02:06.916 --> 0:02:11.276 And my research was into something completely related food, so biomedical, 0:02:12.236 --> 0:02:16.756 very basic biomedical research. Essentially, I had zero interests in 0:02:16.796 --> 0:02:19.876 the business world. And about ten years ago I had 0:02:19.916 --> 0:02:21.796 a little extra time, and I challenged myself to find 0:02:21.796 --> 0:02:24.316 the most important problem in the world that I might 0:02:24.356 --> 0:02:27.756 be able to contribute to solving. And so step one 0:02:27.796 --> 0:02:29.516 was figuring out what is that problem? And it was 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:32.236 pretty apparent to me at the time that the two 0:02:32.276 --> 0:02:35.236 most urgent threats the future of humanity were number one, 0:02:35.316 --> 0:02:38.596 ob used to pretty much everyone, global heating by anthropogenic 0:02:38.676 --> 0:02:43.916 greenhouse gasses and climate change climate change, and less well 0:02:43.956 --> 0:02:47.476 known but actually probably more important and more urgent threat 0:02:47.996 --> 0:02:51.436 is the precipitous, ongoing collapse of global biodiversity. That was 0:02:51.676 --> 0:02:53.036 what I was going to take on. And then the 0:02:53.036 --> 0:02:55.236 second step was figuring out, oh, it's a lot. That's 0:02:55.276 --> 0:02:58.116 a lot. You're going to take out the two biggest 0:02:58.116 --> 0:03:02.076 problems of the world. Okay, keep going, why not? Why not? Fair? 0:03:02.436 --> 0:03:05.396 So then the second step was to figure out what 0:03:05.676 --> 0:03:08.116 would be a path to a solution, and that started 0:03:08.116 --> 0:03:15.236 with recognizing that the fastest, surest solution to both problems 0:03:15.876 --> 0:03:18.116 is to eliminate the user of animals to produce food. 0:03:18.156 --> 0:03:20.956 I think I know the answer, but just briefly, why 0:03:21.316 --> 0:03:24.676 is raising animals to eat really bad for both climate 0:03:24.716 --> 0:03:29.196 change and biodiversity? For climate change, obviously it's an ongoing 0:03:29.236 --> 0:03:32.876 source of greenhouse gases, but more importantly is the opportunity cost. 0:03:33.116 --> 0:03:35.636 So cows burp up a lot of methane. That's really bad. 0:03:35.876 --> 0:03:38.156 And you're saying the second thing is if we weren't 0:03:38.236 --> 0:03:40.356 using all this land to raise cattle, we could grow 0:03:40.396 --> 0:03:42.476 new plants. I mean, is that the other piece of it? 0:03:42.516 --> 0:03:46.196 So yeah, yeah, the two greenhouse gases methane and nitrous oxide, 0:03:46.596 --> 0:03:49.476 the biggest source of which is livestock, biggest anthropogetic source 0:03:49.516 --> 0:03:52.516 of livestock. And then the land footprint of animal agriculture 0:03:53.276 --> 0:03:55.956 is more than eighty percent, probably about eighty five percent 0:03:55.956 --> 0:03:58.516 of the entire land footprint of humanity. Okay, it occupies 0:03:58.516 --> 0:04:00.956 about forty five percent of the ice free surface of Earth. 0:04:01.516 --> 0:04:03.676 All of that land used to hold a lot of 0:04:03.716 --> 0:04:07.916 biomass in forests and prairies and savannahs and so forth. 0:04:08.436 --> 0:04:12.836 That was eliminated when they got transformed into annual crops 0:04:12.916 --> 0:04:16.116 and pasture land. Okay, and the annual crops are largely 0:04:16.116 --> 0:04:19.276 going to feed livestock, right, yes, yes, yes, so you 0:04:19.396 --> 0:04:22.516 got the big problem. Now, you just got to decide 0:04:22.516 --> 0:04:24.556 how are you going to solve the two biggest problems 0:04:24.556 --> 0:04:28.436 facing humanity? Right? Well, the nice thing about was the 0:04:28.516 --> 0:04:32.236 solution was the same in both cases. It was to 0:04:32.916 --> 0:04:35.676 eliminate the use of animals as a food technology. You're 0:04:35.676 --> 0:04:37.756 not going to solve the problem by telling people what 0:04:37.796 --> 0:04:40.116 to eat. You're not going to solve the problem by 0:04:40.156 --> 0:04:45.196 asking governments to you know, make animal our culture illegal. Yeah. 0:04:45.236 --> 0:04:48.876 So the problem isn't that people love meat, it's that 0:04:48.956 --> 0:04:53.196 we're using the wrong technology to produce That seems like 0:04:53.276 --> 0:04:56.796 the big insight, right like, that seems like a real 0:04:56.876 --> 0:04:59.596 shift from what I've heard before. Right Like, people have 0:04:59.676 --> 0:05:03.036 been arguing for decades longer in some cases, that it's 0:05:03.076 --> 0:05:07.276 wrong to eat meat even before climate change was a 0:05:07.356 --> 0:05:11.076 known issue. But the idea that you're going to change 0:05:11.116 --> 0:05:13.716 people's behavior not by telling them that they're wrong to 0:05:13.796 --> 0:05:15.316 be doing what they're doing or that it's bad, but 0:05:15.356 --> 0:05:18.716 by giving them a better option. That seems like your 0:05:18.836 --> 0:05:23.476 big insight. Well that was the critical thing that caused 0:05:23.476 --> 0:05:28.076 me to leave my job and found impossible foods. Because 0:05:28.156 --> 0:05:31.476 you're not going to get a grant for that, you're 0:05:31.476 --> 0:05:34.796 not going to get university funding for that. But fortunately 0:05:35.156 --> 0:05:38.316 you can get investment because there's a big investment proposition. 0:05:38.636 --> 0:05:43.196 If you can develop better technology to replace animals in 0:05:43.196 --> 0:05:47.316 the food system by producing products that consumers value more, okay, 0:05:47.756 --> 0:05:50.476 you can capture a market that today is worth two 0:05:50.596 --> 0:05:54.636 trillion dollars globally. And the thing about it is that 0:05:54.636 --> 0:05:56.316 a lot of people think, oh, that's such a big 0:05:56.316 --> 0:05:58.636 how could you possibly do that, Like it's such a 0:05:58.716 --> 0:06:01.876 part of the world. You know, animals, livestock, and you know, 0:06:01.916 --> 0:06:04.196 you could have said that about horses one hundred years ago, 0:06:04.596 --> 0:06:06.116 and the horse was much more a part of the 0:06:06.156 --> 0:06:10.156 family than a cow. You know, essentially every every household 0:06:09.956 --> 0:06:13.516 had had a horse. But in less than two decades, 0:06:13.596 --> 0:06:17.436 basically it went down to essentially zero, and the horses 0:06:17.436 --> 0:06:22.076 were a hobby and not a motive transportation. So better technology, 0:06:22.676 --> 0:06:25.596 if it does a better job of delivering what consumers value, 0:06:25.956 --> 0:06:30.116 can sweepingly replace an old technology very fast, much faster 0:06:30.196 --> 0:06:33.316 than people ever expect. Okay, so that's that's like the 0:06:33.356 --> 0:06:35.876 big picture behind the company. I want to talk in 0:06:35.916 --> 0:06:38.596 a little more detail. In particular, I want to talk 0:06:38.596 --> 0:06:43.516 about this molecule called hem hem as in hemoglobin, like 0:06:43.556 --> 0:06:45.676 what we have in our blood. It's also in a 0:06:45.676 --> 0:06:49.796 protein called soy leg hemoglobin. And I guess that protein, 0:06:49.836 --> 0:06:52.836 if I understand right, is a key reason your burgers 0:06:52.876 --> 0:06:56.356 are way more meady than the like old school veggie 0:06:56.356 --> 0:06:58.636 burgers that I grew up with. So tell me about 0:06:58.756 --> 0:07:01.956 hem and soy leg hemoglobin. I would say it was 0:07:02.036 --> 0:07:04.076 the first thing that we really put a lot of 0:07:04.116 --> 0:07:09.796 effort into because we didn't know, nor did anyone, why 0:07:09.996 --> 0:07:14.276 doesn't beat taste like meat and unlike anything from the 0:07:14.316 --> 0:07:17.036 plant world. So we had to figure that one out. 0:07:17.196 --> 0:07:21.676 And one of the striking characteristics of meat in general 0:07:22.396 --> 0:07:24.596 is that it behaves like an active chemical system. It 0:07:24.676 --> 0:07:28.916 starts out with one flavor profile, which is relatively not 0:07:29.076 --> 0:07:32.516 very strong, mostly bloody kind of and when you cook 0:07:32.556 --> 0:07:35.916 it in a matter of minutes, it completely transforms and 0:07:35.996 --> 0:07:40.476 in the process it produces this explosion of aromas that 0:07:40.596 --> 0:07:43.836 weren't there at the beginning. Okay, that's why a barbecue 0:07:43.876 --> 0:07:47.636 smells so good, right exactly. And you will notice that 0:07:47.716 --> 0:07:49.756 you don't you don't get any similar behavior if you 0:07:50.036 --> 0:07:56.516 barbecue broccoli, okay. And so meat has this distinct behavior 0:07:56.516 --> 0:07:59.876 word behaves like a really kind of explosive chemical system. 0:08:00.716 --> 0:08:06.116 And because meat, unlike plants, like hundreds of thousand times 0:08:06.236 --> 0:08:08.556 higher levels of heam and HEAM is one of the 0:08:08.596 --> 0:08:12.236 best biological catalys is known. So how do we get 0:08:12.276 --> 0:08:15.236 to soil like hemoglobin? So we needed a plant source 0:08:15.556 --> 0:08:18.916 of heme at scale. This this is known in botany 0:08:19.396 --> 0:08:24.116 that legums, that plants that fix nitrogen. They take atmospheric 0:08:24.196 --> 0:08:28.996 nitrogen and turn it into a monitarne into fertilizer. They 0:08:29.036 --> 0:08:31.116 have the structure called a root nodule that does that 0:08:31.236 --> 0:08:36.436 little trick. And the root nodule contains very high concentrations 0:08:36.556 --> 0:08:40.756 of a hem protein called leg hemoglobin. Okay, okay, And 0:08:40.956 --> 0:08:44.756 leg hemoglobin presumably is like it's like hemoglobin like in animals, 0:08:44.756 --> 0:08:48.036 but from a legum. Is that what leg hemoglobin means exactly. 0:08:48.076 --> 0:08:51.596 You figured it out. It's actually structurally extremely similar, like 0:08:52.036 --> 0:08:54.356 you would pick it out in a lineup as being 0:08:54.396 --> 0:08:58.516 identical to myoglobin, which is the hem protein and muscle tissue. 0:08:58.596 --> 0:09:01.236 So if you're looking to make meat from plants, that 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:05.236 is a very promising protein. Is a correctical to protein. 0:09:05.276 --> 0:09:07.516 By the way, sorry remedial questions. So like hemoglobin is 0:09:07.556 --> 0:09:11.716 a protein, I celic that the amount of leg hemoglobin 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:17.756 in the roots of the US soybean crop would be 0:09:17.876 --> 0:09:20.156 enough to match all the hem and all the meat 0:09:20.676 --> 0:09:23.996 consumed in the US. Okay, okay, good news. So it 0:09:24.076 --> 0:09:26.396 seemed like, oh, bingo, that's how we'll do it. Well, 0:09:26.796 --> 0:09:30.316 we'll just harvest the root nodules from soybean something that 0:09:30.356 --> 0:09:34.356 nobody was bothering to harvest. That's amazing. They're growing it anyways, 0:09:34.356 --> 0:09:37.076 and they're just getting rid of it right perfect. So, 0:09:37.316 --> 0:09:42.116 for the first year or so, our primary effort was 0:09:42.196 --> 0:09:43.996 figuring out how to go a scale source of a 0:09:44.076 --> 0:09:48.676 hem protein okay, and in particular soyle hemoglobin, in particular 0:09:48.716 --> 0:09:52.636 soilake hemoglobin, because it was the only plant source of 0:09:52.756 --> 0:09:56.276 a hem protein that was a sufficient scale anyway, So 0:09:57.676 --> 0:10:01.276 we spent a lot of time in fields of soybeans 0:10:02.476 --> 0:10:05.236 figuring out how to harvest the root nodules. There are 0:10:05.236 --> 0:10:08.356 some ludicrous videos of the contraptions we built for that. 0:10:09.196 --> 0:10:12.876 Give me an example, you say ludicrous video and contraption. 0:10:12.916 --> 0:10:15.396 One of the first things we did was we went 0:10:15.436 --> 0:10:19.116 to a soybean farm that was owned by the cousin 0:10:19.276 --> 0:10:25.876 of our chief businessperson in Minnesota and harvested a couple 0:10:25.876 --> 0:10:28.996 of acres of soybeans, dug them up with a potato digger, 0:10:29.436 --> 0:10:30.956 and then we had to figure out how to separate 0:10:30.996 --> 0:10:34.436 these nodules, which are like two millimeters in diameter attached 0:10:34.436 --> 0:10:37.476 to these fragile threads of roots, and they're buried in dirt, 0:10:37.836 --> 0:10:41.276 so we could isolate it while we built a contraption 0:10:41.436 --> 0:10:45.556 out of sheets of plywood and then the bottoms of 0:10:45.676 --> 0:10:49.876 Janitor brooms, you know those rectangular rooms. And then we've 0:10:50.116 --> 0:10:53.476 brought along a street sweeper that has this big spinning 0:10:53.556 --> 0:11:00.316 room so that that broom would cross with the Janter brooms. 0:11:00.796 --> 0:11:04.836 And then I was doing a lot of this shoving 0:11:05.396 --> 0:11:10.796 these soybean roots under this wheat streeper so that the 0:11:10.836 --> 0:11:14.116 spinning thing could rip the nodules off from the rest 0:11:14.116 --> 0:11:19.476 of the plant. Did it work? Did it work? It worked? Okay, 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:23.196 But here's the problem. Okay, when we looked at the 0:11:23.396 --> 0:11:26.716 entirety of it, after six months or more of trying 0:11:26.756 --> 0:11:30.436 this approach, we realized that the cost and complexity of 0:11:31.596 --> 0:11:33.436 getting rid of the dirt and all the other crap 0:11:33.476 --> 0:11:36.876 from the root nodules made it. Basically the economics didn't 0:11:36.876 --> 0:11:39.276 look like they were going to scale. So, but meanwhile 0:11:39.316 --> 0:11:41.036 we got enough of the soil people who are willing 0:11:41.116 --> 0:11:44.036 to prove that this is the magic ingredient for meat flavors. 0:11:44.076 --> 0:11:45.996 Then the question was, Okay, we need another way to 0:11:46.076 --> 0:11:50.316 get this to scale. So we knew just from the 0:11:50.356 --> 0:11:54.236 economics of producing proteins by fermentation and so forth, that 0:11:54.396 --> 0:11:58.876 that was potentially doable. Producing proteins by fermentation, that's a 0:11:58.876 --> 0:12:02.156 whole other thing that doesn't actually involve soybeans or dirt 0:12:02.276 --> 0:12:04.516 or anything. Right. Yeah, So this has done a lot. 0:12:04.556 --> 0:12:07.196 You know, most of the enzymes that are in your detergents, 0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:10.516 A lot of the enzymes they're using breadmaking and stuff 0:12:10.516 --> 0:12:14.316 like that are produced by microorganisms that have been engineered 0:12:14.356 --> 0:12:18.596 with the genes that encode those those proteins and so forth. 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:23.036 This has been going on for decades, so that technology 0:12:23.156 --> 0:12:26.276 is reasonably mature in its own right, and so we 0:12:26.276 --> 0:12:28.356 could project the economics of it and seem like this 0:12:28.396 --> 0:12:30.876 would be scalable and doable and so forth. So just 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:32.956 to be clear, you decide that instead of trying to 0:12:32.956 --> 0:12:36.876 get soileg hemoglobin out of the roots of soybeans, you're 0:12:36.876 --> 0:12:39.516 going to take the gene that produces soi leg hemoglobin, 0:12:40.036 --> 0:12:43.676 put it into yeast and grow the soileg hemoglobin in 0:12:43.676 --> 0:12:47.836 a vat. You're going to cut out the soybean middleman. Yes, exactly, exactly, Okay, 0:12:47.996 --> 0:12:49.796 I mean it comes to mind, like why not just 0:12:49.956 --> 0:12:52.036 do the one that's in a cow? Right? It is 0:12:52.036 --> 0:12:54.436 that a dumb question? No, it's not at all dumb question, 0:12:54.516 --> 0:12:56.916 and it's actually one of the ones that we looked 0:12:56.916 --> 0:12:59.516 at was bovi and myoglobin, which is the one that's 0:12:59.516 --> 0:13:03.156 in a cow. But we also looked at similar heame 0:13:03.196 --> 0:13:06.996 proteins from everything from paramecium to barley and the end 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:09.516 we looked at three dollsand different heame proteins, and just 0:13:09.676 --> 0:13:13.956 by random chance, the best performing one was soilo hemoglobin. 0:13:14.316 --> 0:13:17.756 Best performing meaning it just made the tastiest burger, stayed 0:13:17.796 --> 0:13:20.436 fresh the longest, was the best behaved in terms of 0:13:20.516 --> 0:13:22.956 expressing in yeast, in terms of being able to be 0:13:23.036 --> 0:13:28.236 isolated efficiently, in terms of not turning brown, sound up, 0:13:28.236 --> 0:13:33.396 putting the planting then code soil hemoglobin into yeast, do 0:13:33.476 --> 0:13:35.996 you know? And so they were able to produce it 0:13:40.476 --> 0:13:44.356 in a minute. Impossible burgers are still way more expensive 0:13:44.516 --> 0:13:46.996 than beef burgers. What's it going to take for the 0:13:47.036 --> 0:13:50.276 price to come down? Also, when will I be able 0:13:50.276 --> 0:14:02.436 to order an impossible steak? That's the end of the ads. 0:14:02.876 --> 0:14:05.796 Now we're going back to the show. Let's talk briefly 0:14:05.916 --> 0:14:09.676 about oh, health and safety. I like that you're not 0:14:09.796 --> 0:14:12.196 trying to make like a super healthy burger, right. I 0:14:12.276 --> 0:14:14.196 like that you're trying to make a burger that's like 0:14:14.196 --> 0:14:16.436 a burger, and a burger is not that healthy? Right? 0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:18.436 First of all, is that a fair way to think 0:14:18.436 --> 0:14:20.076 about it? Like you're not trying to make health food, 0:14:20.076 --> 0:14:22.116 You're trying to make something that is delicious, like meat 0:14:22.196 --> 0:14:25.436 is delicious, but without an animal. It's almost fair. But 0:14:27.316 --> 0:14:28.916 I want to do better than almost sure. I want 0:14:28.916 --> 0:14:30.876 to get to face. We want to make something that 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:35.516 delivers what meat consumers want, which is above all, a 0:14:35.596 --> 0:14:39.836 delicious eating experience, and we can't compromise on that, but 0:14:40.316 --> 0:14:42.956 we have the opportunity to make it healthier than the 0:14:42.996 --> 0:14:47.636 cow version, Okay. And one of our core principles has 0:14:47.636 --> 0:14:51.396 always been We're never going to sell a product that 0:14:51.516 --> 0:14:54.916 we don't believe, based on the evidence, is healthier than 0:14:54.956 --> 0:15:00.356 what it replaces. Not healthier than a salad, but healthier 0:15:00.396 --> 0:15:02.956 than a burger made from a cow, or a chicken 0:15:03.036 --> 0:15:07.276 nugget made from a chicken, or whatever product it's intended 0:15:07.316 --> 0:15:11.156 to replace. So we are very conscientious about health and nutrition, 0:15:11.836 --> 0:15:15.036 but within the context of a product that consumers actually 0:15:15.076 --> 0:15:19.316 want to buy in place of specific animal products. Right. 0:15:19.356 --> 0:15:22.316 Your target customer is not a vegetarian, right, It's a 0:15:22.316 --> 0:15:24.556 person who eats burgers, and you want that person to 0:15:24.596 --> 0:15:27.476 buy an impossible foods burger because they like it better, 0:15:27.636 --> 0:15:29.836 not because they feel bad about cows or climate change 0:15:29.916 --> 0:15:34.076 or whatever. Right, Yeah, exactly. You know. The problem that 0:15:34.196 --> 0:15:37.836 I'm trying to solve is that this industry is supported 0:15:37.876 --> 0:15:40.556 by people who love meat, Okay, and for us to 0:15:40.636 --> 0:15:44.796 compete them out of existence, we have to give them 0:15:44.836 --> 0:15:47.516 exactly what they want and do it better than the animal, 0:15:48.196 --> 0:15:51.876 and we're not interested in serving vegetarians. Perfectly, I love 0:15:51.956 --> 0:15:54.756 vegetarians and vegans as much as the next guy. Okay, 0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:59.076 I'm vegan, my wife is vegan, no offense, but we 0:15:59.116 --> 0:16:02.356 don't accomplish anything by making better meat for vegans. One 0:16:02.356 --> 0:16:08.276 other thing on health and safety is, well, just that 0:16:08.356 --> 0:16:11.196 what you're doing is novel. Right. I'm interested in it 0:16:11.236 --> 0:16:13.956 because you are out on the technological frontier trying to 0:16:13.956 --> 0:16:16.676 solve what is clearly a very large problem. At the 0:16:16.756 --> 0:16:20.876 same time, you know, it seems to me there's a 0:16:20.996 --> 0:16:23.596 kind of common sense in eating things that people have 0:16:23.636 --> 0:16:27.796 eaten for a long time and being cautious about new 0:16:28.116 --> 0:16:30.756 kinds of foods, not new mixtures of old foods, but 0:16:30.796 --> 0:16:34.796 actually new kinds of foods. And I think of, say, margarine, right, 0:16:34.836 --> 0:16:38.676 which was introduced as a healthier alternative to butter and proved. 0:16:38.716 --> 0:16:40.116 I think it's fair to say at this point to 0:16:40.156 --> 0:16:43.396 be less healthy than butter. Help me not worry. Convince 0:16:43.476 --> 0:16:46.196 me that impossible burgers are not margarine. So if you 0:16:46.236 --> 0:16:50.916 look at our product, okay, there's nothing at them like 0:16:50.996 --> 0:16:55.236 your level that isn't an abundant part of the human diet. Humans, 0:16:55.316 --> 0:17:00.796 for example, consume thousands of different heam proteins every single 0:17:00.876 --> 0:17:05.396 day in their normal diet, because every plant has hundreds 0:17:05.396 --> 0:17:08.996 of hem proteins, all the meats have their own different 0:17:09.156 --> 0:17:12.196 heam proteins, and so forth. The other ingredients in our 0:17:12.236 --> 0:17:15.196 product are all things that have been part of the 0:17:15.276 --> 0:17:19.916 human diet for decades, if not centuries, okay, and most 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:22.556 of them have been really really well studied in terms 0:17:22.596 --> 0:17:27.996 of their nutrition and health properties. When will an impossible 0:17:27.996 --> 0:17:31.116 burger be cheaper than a beef burger, Well, the definite 0:17:31.116 --> 0:17:35.676 answer is eventually, because producing it requires one twenty fifth 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:37.436 the land, at tenth the water, less than a tenth 0:17:37.436 --> 0:17:41.236 the fertilizer, and agrochemicals, less farm labor growing plants, no 0:17:41.396 --> 0:17:44.356 farm labor, imagine the animals, and our production process is 0:17:44.396 --> 0:17:47.636 much more labor efficient, and yet it's more expensive now 0:17:47.756 --> 0:17:50.156 in spite of all that. But the point is, the 0:17:50.396 --> 0:17:55.356 fundamental economics of the technology are vastly, vastly better. Again, 0:17:55.476 --> 0:17:58.236 all the inputs, all the costly inputs of agriculture are 0:17:58.636 --> 0:18:01.516 much much less, like not just a little less. But 0:18:01.636 --> 0:18:05.716 the difference is that the incumbent industry already has all 0:18:05.796 --> 0:18:10.436 its infrastructure in a place doesn't have to introduce a 0:18:10.476 --> 0:18:14.836 new project product that consumers can't imagine and haven't heard of. Yeah, 0:18:15.076 --> 0:18:18.676 and we are building all our everything about our business 0:18:19.076 --> 0:18:23.116 from scratch, which means we have to be investing in 0:18:23.236 --> 0:18:27.916 that continually making investments. And we're not nearly at their scale, 0:18:28.196 --> 0:18:32.036 but as emtotically at scale. It's no contest. So look, 0:18:32.396 --> 0:18:35.036 I'm a fan of impossible burghers. I grilled them for 0:18:35.156 --> 0:18:37.556 my family last night. True story. The impossible Whopper is 0:18:37.596 --> 0:18:39.556 our go to road trip food. I'm not a vegetarian, 0:18:39.636 --> 0:18:41.756 but some people in my family are, and I'm happy 0:18:41.796 --> 0:18:45.956 to not eat beef. So what's next? And in particular, 0:18:46.076 --> 0:18:47.956 I would love for you to tell me the story 0:18:47.996 --> 0:18:51.276 of something you haven't cracked yet, whether it's steak or 0:18:51.516 --> 0:18:54.596 chicken breast. I mean, those things seem way harder than 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:59.156 ground meat. Is there something some problem you haven't solved 0:18:59.236 --> 0:19:01.276 yet that you can just tell me about sort of 0:19:01.356 --> 0:19:04.116 how you're trying to do it? What hasn't worked when 0:19:04.396 --> 0:19:07.076 we started out, Okay, we took on a problem that 0:19:07.156 --> 0:19:10.236 we didn't know how to solve. Right. We believed it 0:19:10.476 --> 0:19:14.596 was solvable based on not fantasy but understanding the biochemistry. 0:19:14.636 --> 0:19:16.276 But we didn't know how. We had to figure it out, 0:19:16.916 --> 0:19:19.596 and every new product, if it's not already on the market, 0:19:19.956 --> 0:19:22.596 we're still figuring it out. And we have very high standards. 0:19:22.636 --> 0:19:25.876 So we've had a lot of products that you know what, 0:19:26.036 --> 0:19:28.796 have been successful in the market well before we launch them. 0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:32.316 But we want to launch products only if we believe 0:19:32.356 --> 0:19:36.076 they can successfully compete against the best animal products on 0:19:36.116 --> 0:19:39.596 the market. So we're working on hull cuts like you 0:19:39.676 --> 0:19:43.236 could say steak and chicken breast, and that seems so 0:19:43.476 --> 0:19:46.236 much harder, is it? It's harder in a different way. 0:19:46.556 --> 0:19:48.676 Do you have to kind of start from square one? No, 0:19:48.796 --> 0:19:51.396 we don't have to start again because because first of all, 0:19:51.596 --> 0:19:54.916 we've already figured out the fundamentals of the flavor chemistry. 0:19:55.116 --> 0:19:58.396 So the different thing about hull cuts they have the 0:19:58.556 --> 0:20:01.996 same kind of components, but they have anatomy okay, and 0:20:02.196 --> 0:20:06.036 they have a different texture and cooking behavior you know 0:20:06.276 --> 0:20:09.916 related to that. Yeah, but we understand and it pretty well. 0:20:10.556 --> 0:20:13.676 We're making great progress. Let's just say, um, but I 0:20:13.756 --> 0:20:16.196 don't want to say anything more anyway. The point is, yes, 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:18.636 it's a harder problem. It's not I would say a 0:20:18.716 --> 0:20:22.996 step function harder. It's just it's just got additional sort 0:20:23.036 --> 0:20:26.916 of technical engineering challenges that we have to figure out. 0:20:27.196 --> 0:20:29.476 I wouldn't be saying it if I wasn't highly confident 0:20:30.116 --> 0:20:32.716 that we're going to have something to launch the world 0:20:32.796 --> 0:20:34.836 within the next, say, couple of years. What are you 0:20:34.916 --> 0:20:37.316 going to launch? And by when more or less, we 0:20:37.476 --> 0:20:42.236 certainly expect to be launching a great steak product and 0:20:42.476 --> 0:20:45.596 other hole cuts you can think of as like pork 0:20:45.716 --> 0:20:51.316 tenderloin or chicken breast or like great pieces of meat 0:20:51.436 --> 0:20:55.316 years pieces of meat that have that have the anatomy, 0:20:55.436 --> 0:20:58.156 if you know what I mean. Yeah, Yeah, within a 0:20:58.196 --> 0:21:00.796 couple of years, meaning like twenty twenty four ish. You know, 0:21:01.036 --> 0:21:03.876 I'm not gonna I'm not gonna make promises here, but 0:21:03.956 --> 0:21:11.996 I would say pretty high confidence. Yes, Impossible Foods has 0:21:12.156 --> 0:21:16.036 made a profoundly better veggie burger, but the company still 0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:18.276 has a ways to go to solve that big problem 0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:22.476 slash dream of really making meat without animals, which is 0:21:22.516 --> 0:21:25.556 an absurdly big, hard problem that lots of companies are 0:21:25.596 --> 0:21:29.596 working on. We'll have more about that next week, including 0:21:29.636 --> 0:21:32.356 both some of the struggles the industry has been going 0:21:32.436 --> 0:21:35.516 through lately and also more on what may be coming 0:21:35.756 --> 0:21:38.396 in the next few years. But before we go to day, 0:21:38.916 --> 0:21:48.716 we'll do the lightning round. That's in a minute. Okay, 0:21:48.796 --> 0:21:50.956 let's get back to the show. We're gonna close with 0:21:50.996 --> 0:21:56.196 the lightning round. What's the most overrated vegetable? That's interesting? 0:21:57.396 --> 0:22:00.876 I think the sweet potnia. I'm gonna get some haymail 0:22:00.916 --> 0:22:03.396 on that one. But sweet potato, Heymail's good, Hey mail. 0:22:03.676 --> 0:22:07.836 What's the most underrated vegetable? That's really tough fun. Oh 0:22:07.916 --> 0:22:11.076 maybe Brussels spread. Okay, they've made a comeback. It's a 0:22:11.196 --> 0:22:14.316 divisive one. They've made a comeback. Yeah, they're hip, They're 0:22:14.436 --> 0:22:17.356 it vegetable. I'm a fan. If everything goes well, what's 0:22:17.356 --> 0:22:21.516 a problem you'll be trying to solve in say, five years. Oh, actually, 0:22:21.596 --> 0:22:24.356 that's a very good question. So and impossible foods. What 0:22:24.516 --> 0:22:30.516 we're doing is using market competition to reduce the economic 0:22:30.636 --> 0:22:34.956 incentive for covering land with cows and crops to feed 0:22:34.996 --> 0:22:39.516 pigs and chickens and stuff like that. Right. The next step, though, 0:22:39.796 --> 0:22:42.156 is what to do with that land and how to 0:22:42.236 --> 0:22:45.196 make the most of the opportunity. Okay, here's another question. 0:22:45.676 --> 0:22:48.156 There are other companies trying to do what you do. 0:22:48.436 --> 0:22:50.476 Beyond meat is a big one. There's lots of others. 0:22:51.036 --> 0:22:54.636 You are clearly driven by mission, right, I believe that 0:22:54.716 --> 0:22:56.356 you are not in this to get rich or whatever. 0:22:56.476 --> 0:23:00.596 So does it matter to you whether Impossible Food winds 0:23:00.716 --> 0:23:04.716 or some other company makes incredible technology that makes meat obsolete? Like, 0:23:04.836 --> 0:23:07.276 does that matter to who wins? Not? Really? No, I 0:23:07.316 --> 0:23:09.436 mean it matters to me a little bit. Now that 0:23:09.476 --> 0:23:11.396 I have the company. There are people who you know, 0:23:11.596 --> 0:23:14.956 depend on it for their jobs. But basically, even the 0:23:15.116 --> 0:23:17.636 from the standpoint of our business, the best thing that 0:23:17.756 --> 0:23:22.076 could happen with other companies is for them to make 0:23:22.876 --> 0:23:27.556 better products. Okay, because the biggest obstacle to you know, 0:23:27.756 --> 0:23:31.636 our growth and traction and so forth is there's a 0:23:31.876 --> 0:23:35.996 very strong preconceived notion that any purported meat product that's 0:23:36.036 --> 0:23:41.476 made from plants is going to suck and making more 0:23:41.596 --> 0:23:45.356 products that reinforce that notion only hurts us. So I 0:23:45.436 --> 0:23:48.436 would love to see any any plant based company, any 0:23:48.476 --> 0:23:50.636 company that's trying to replace animals in the food system, 0:23:50.676 --> 0:23:52.996 however they're doing it as far as I'm concerned as 0:23:52.996 --> 0:23:56.636 an ally, and I sincerely wish them the best success. 0:24:02.476 --> 0:24:05.716 Pat Brown is the founder of Impossible Foods. He's currently 0:24:05.796 --> 0:24:08.156 on leave from the company, scheduled to return in March. 0:24:08.516 --> 0:24:11.196 I spoke with m last year. Next week, we'll have 0:24:11.316 --> 0:24:14.076 more on the future of fake meat, including a company 0:24:14.156 --> 0:24:17.276 trying to grow meat from animal cells. Which do you 0:24:17.356 --> 0:24:19.676