1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:25,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Let's talk about meat. It's delicious, very satisfying to 2 00:00:25,396 --> 00:00:30,396 Speaker 1: cook and to eat, smells incredible on the grill. But 3 00:00:31,556 --> 00:00:35,596 Speaker 1: at this moment in history, billions of human beings eating 4 00:00:35,676 --> 00:00:39,356 Speaker 1: all that delicious meat has become something of a problem. 5 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:42,836 Speaker 1: Raising livestock and growing food for them to eat takes 6 00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:45,596 Speaker 1: up a huge amount of the earth, an area the 7 00:00:45,636 --> 00:00:48,956 Speaker 1: size of the Americas, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego 8 00:00:49,276 --> 00:00:52,796 Speaker 1: in all, and the animals themselves make climate change worse. 9 00:00:53,236 --> 00:00:57,676 Speaker 1: Cows methane, you know that story. These facts, though, are 10 00:00:57,756 --> 00:01:00,756 Speaker 1: not going to be enough to change the way billions 11 00:01:00,756 --> 00:01:04,796 Speaker 1: of people eat. Meat. Just taste too good, Our relationship 12 00:01:04,876 --> 00:01:07,876 Speaker 1: with it is too deep. But what if we could 13 00:01:07,956 --> 00:01:11,076 Speaker 1: nudge people not with facts or guilt trips, but with 14 00:01:11,156 --> 00:01:19,476 Speaker 1: something delicious. I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is what's your problem. 15 00:01:19,516 --> 00:01:23,276 Speaker 1: My guest today is Pat Brown, the founder of Impossible Foods. 16 00:01:23,756 --> 00:01:28,036 Speaker 1: Pat's problem is this, how can you make meat without animals? 17 00:01:29,196 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 1: Pat founded Impossible Foods in twenty eleven. Since then, the 18 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:36,836 Speaker 1: company has received roughly two billion dollars in investment. Burger 19 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: King now sells the Impossible Whopper. You can buy Impossible 20 00:01:39,876 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 1: Burger patties and chicken like nuggets at the grocery store. 21 00:01:43,716 --> 00:01:46,716 Speaker 1: But Pat doesn't come from a business background, or even 22 00:01:46,796 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: really a food background. He got an m d and 23 00:01:49,356 --> 00:01:52,196 Speaker 1: a PhD and worked for decades as a professor of 24 00:01:52,236 --> 00:01:56,916 Speaker 1: biochemistry at Stanford. I had my dream job. I had 25 00:01:56,956 --> 00:02:01,356 Speaker 1: awesome colleagues, awesome students, a great intellectual environment, all the 26 00:02:01,396 --> 00:02:05,396 Speaker 1: funding I needed. I had no intention of leaving it. 27 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:11,276 Speaker 1: And my research was into something completely related food, so biomedical, 28 00:02:12,236 --> 00:02:16,756 Speaker 1: very basic biomedical research. Essentially, I had zero interests in 29 00:02:16,796 --> 00:02:19,876 Speaker 1: the business world. And about ten years ago I had 30 00:02:19,916 --> 00:02:21,796 Speaker 1: a little extra time, and I challenged myself to find 31 00:02:21,796 --> 00:02:24,316 Speaker 1: the most important problem in the world that I might 32 00:02:24,356 --> 00:02:27,756 Speaker 1: be able to contribute to solving. And so step one 33 00:02:27,796 --> 00:02:29,516 Speaker 1: was figuring out what is that problem? And it was 34 00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:32,236 Speaker 1: pretty apparent to me at the time that the two 35 00:02:32,276 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: most urgent threats the future of humanity were number one, 36 00:02:35,316 --> 00:02:38,596 Speaker 1: ob used to pretty much everyone, global heating by anthropogenic 37 00:02:38,676 --> 00:02:43,916 Speaker 1: greenhouse gasses and climate change climate change, and less well 38 00:02:43,956 --> 00:02:47,476 Speaker 1: known but actually probably more important and more urgent threat 39 00:02:47,996 --> 00:02:51,436 Speaker 1: is the precipitous, ongoing collapse of global biodiversity. That was 40 00:02:51,676 --> 00:02:53,036 Speaker 1: what I was going to take on. And then the 41 00:02:53,036 --> 00:02:55,236 Speaker 1: second step was figuring out, oh, it's a lot. That's 42 00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:58,116 Speaker 1: a lot. You're going to take out the two biggest 43 00:02:58,116 --> 00:03:02,076 Speaker 1: problems of the world. Okay, keep going, why not? Why not? Fair? 44 00:03:02,436 --> 00:03:05,396 Speaker 1: So then the second step was to figure out what 45 00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:08,116 Speaker 1: would be a path to a solution, and that started 46 00:03:08,116 --> 00:03:15,236 Speaker 1: with recognizing that the fastest, surest solution to both problems 47 00:03:15,876 --> 00:03:18,116 Speaker 1: is to eliminate the user of animals to produce food. 48 00:03:18,156 --> 00:03:20,956 Speaker 1: I think I know the answer, but just briefly, why 49 00:03:21,316 --> 00:03:24,676 Speaker 1: is raising animals to eat really bad for both climate 50 00:03:24,716 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 1: change and biodiversity? For climate change, obviously it's an ongoing 51 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:32,876 Speaker 1: source of greenhouse gases, but more importantly is the opportunity cost. 52 00:03:33,116 --> 00:03:35,636 Speaker 1: So cows burp up a lot of methane. That's really bad. 53 00:03:35,876 --> 00:03:38,156 Speaker 1: And you're saying the second thing is if we weren't 54 00:03:38,236 --> 00:03:40,356 Speaker 1: using all this land to raise cattle, we could grow 55 00:03:40,396 --> 00:03:42,476 Speaker 1: new plants. I mean, is that the other piece of it? 56 00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:46,196 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, the two greenhouse gases methane and nitrous oxide, 57 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:49,476 Speaker 1: the biggest source of which is livestock, biggest anthropogetic source 58 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 1: of livestock. And then the land footprint of animal agriculture 59 00:03:53,276 --> 00:03:55,956 Speaker 1: is more than eighty percent, probably about eighty five percent 60 00:03:55,956 --> 00:03:58,516 Speaker 1: of the entire land footprint of humanity. Okay, it occupies 61 00:03:58,516 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: about forty five percent of the ice free surface of Earth. 62 00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:03,676 Speaker 1: All of that land used to hold a lot of 63 00:04:03,716 --> 00:04:07,916 Speaker 1: biomass in forests and prairies and savannahs and so forth. 64 00:04:08,436 --> 00:04:12,836 Speaker 1: That was eliminated when they got transformed into annual crops 65 00:04:12,916 --> 00:04:16,116 Speaker 1: and pasture land. Okay, and the annual crops are largely 66 00:04:16,116 --> 00:04:19,276 Speaker 1: going to feed livestock, right, yes, yes, yes, so you 67 00:04:19,396 --> 00:04:22,516 Speaker 1: got the big problem. Now, you just got to decide 68 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:24,556 Speaker 1: how are you going to solve the two biggest problems 69 00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:28,436 Speaker 1: facing humanity? Right? Well, the nice thing about was the 70 00:04:28,516 --> 00:04:32,236 Speaker 1: solution was the same in both cases. It was to 71 00:04:32,916 --> 00:04:35,676 Speaker 1: eliminate the use of animals as a food technology. You're 72 00:04:35,676 --> 00:04:37,756 Speaker 1: not going to solve the problem by telling people what 73 00:04:37,796 --> 00:04:40,116 Speaker 1: to eat. You're not going to solve the problem by 74 00:04:40,156 --> 00:04:45,196 Speaker 1: asking governments to you know, make animal our culture illegal. Yeah. 75 00:04:45,236 --> 00:04:48,876 Speaker 1: So the problem isn't that people love meat, it's that 76 00:04:48,956 --> 00:04:53,196 Speaker 1: we're using the wrong technology to produce That seems like 77 00:04:53,276 --> 00:04:56,796 Speaker 1: the big insight, right like, that seems like a real 78 00:04:56,876 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 1: shift from what I've heard before. Right Like, people have 79 00:04:59,676 --> 00:05:03,036 Speaker 1: been arguing for decades longer in some cases, that it's 80 00:05:03,076 --> 00:05:07,276 Speaker 1: wrong to eat meat even before climate change was a 81 00:05:07,356 --> 00:05:11,076 Speaker 1: known issue. But the idea that you're going to change 82 00:05:11,116 --> 00:05:13,716 Speaker 1: people's behavior not by telling them that they're wrong to 83 00:05:13,796 --> 00:05:15,316 Speaker 1: be doing what they're doing or that it's bad, but 84 00:05:15,356 --> 00:05:18,716 Speaker 1: by giving them a better option. That seems like your 85 00:05:18,836 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 1: big insight. Well that was the critical thing that caused 86 00:05:23,476 --> 00:05:28,076 Speaker 1: me to leave my job and found impossible foods. Because 87 00:05:28,156 --> 00:05:31,476 Speaker 1: you're not going to get a grant for that, you're 88 00:05:31,476 --> 00:05:34,796 Speaker 1: not going to get university funding for that. But fortunately 89 00:05:35,156 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: you can get investment because there's a big investment proposition. 90 00:05:38,636 --> 00:05:43,196 Speaker 1: If you can develop better technology to replace animals in 91 00:05:43,196 --> 00:05:47,316 Speaker 1: the food system by producing products that consumers value more, okay, 92 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:50,476 Speaker 1: you can capture a market that today is worth two 93 00:05:50,596 --> 00:05:54,636 Speaker 1: trillion dollars globally. And the thing about it is that 94 00:05:54,636 --> 00:05:56,316 Speaker 1: a lot of people think, oh, that's such a big 95 00:05:56,316 --> 00:05:58,636 Speaker 1: how could you possibly do that, Like it's such a 96 00:05:58,716 --> 00:06:01,876 Speaker 1: part of the world. You know, animals, livestock, and you know, 97 00:06:01,916 --> 00:06:04,196 Speaker 1: you could have said that about horses one hundred years ago, 98 00:06:04,596 --> 00:06:06,116 Speaker 1: and the horse was much more a part of the 99 00:06:06,156 --> 00:06:10,156 Speaker 1: family than a cow. You know, essentially every every household 100 00:06:09,956 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 1: had had a horse. But in less than two decades, 101 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:17,436 Speaker 1: basically it went down to essentially zero, and the horses 102 00:06:17,436 --> 00:06:22,076 Speaker 1: were a hobby and not a motive transportation. So better technology, 103 00:06:22,676 --> 00:06:25,596 Speaker 1: if it does a better job of delivering what consumers value, 104 00:06:25,956 --> 00:06:30,116 Speaker 1: can sweepingly replace an old technology very fast, much faster 105 00:06:30,196 --> 00:06:33,316 Speaker 1: than people ever expect. Okay, so that's that's like the 106 00:06:33,356 --> 00:06:35,876 Speaker 1: big picture behind the company. I want to talk in 107 00:06:35,916 --> 00:06:38,596 Speaker 1: a little more detail. In particular, I want to talk 108 00:06:38,596 --> 00:06:43,516 Speaker 1: about this molecule called hem hem as in hemoglobin, like 109 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:45,676 Speaker 1: what we have in our blood. It's also in a 110 00:06:45,676 --> 00:06:49,796 Speaker 1: protein called soy leg hemoglobin. And I guess that protein, 111 00:06:49,836 --> 00:06:52,836 Speaker 1: if I understand right, is a key reason your burgers 112 00:06:52,876 --> 00:06:56,356 Speaker 1: are way more meady than the like old school veggie 113 00:06:56,356 --> 00:06:58,636 Speaker 1: burgers that I grew up with. So tell me about 114 00:06:58,756 --> 00:07:01,956 Speaker 1: hem and soy leg hemoglobin. I would say it was 115 00:07:02,036 --> 00:07:04,076 Speaker 1: the first thing that we really put a lot of 116 00:07:04,116 --> 00:07:09,796 Speaker 1: effort into because we didn't know, nor did anyone, why 117 00:07:09,996 --> 00:07:14,276 Speaker 1: doesn't beat taste like meat and unlike anything from the 118 00:07:14,316 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 1: plant world. So we had to figure that one out. 119 00:07:17,196 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 1: And one of the striking characteristics of meat in general 120 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:24,596 Speaker 1: is that it behaves like an active chemical system. It 121 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:28,916 Speaker 1: starts out with one flavor profile, which is relatively not 122 00:07:29,076 --> 00:07:32,516 Speaker 1: very strong, mostly bloody kind of and when you cook 123 00:07:32,556 --> 00:07:35,916 Speaker 1: it in a matter of minutes, it completely transforms and 124 00:07:35,996 --> 00:07:40,476 Speaker 1: in the process it produces this explosion of aromas that 125 00:07:40,596 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 1: weren't there at the beginning. Okay, that's why a barbecue 126 00:07:43,876 --> 00:07:47,636 Speaker 1: smells so good, right exactly. And you will notice that 127 00:07:47,716 --> 00:07:49,756 Speaker 1: you don't you don't get any similar behavior if you 128 00:07:50,036 --> 00:07:56,516 Speaker 1: barbecue broccoli, okay. And so meat has this distinct behavior 129 00:07:56,516 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 1: word behaves like a really kind of explosive chemical system. 130 00:08:00,716 --> 00:08:06,116 Speaker 1: And because meat, unlike plants, like hundreds of thousand times 131 00:08:06,236 --> 00:08:08,556 Speaker 1: higher levels of heam and HEAM is one of the 132 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:12,236 Speaker 1: best biological catalys is known. So how do we get 133 00:08:12,276 --> 00:08:15,236 Speaker 1: to soil like hemoglobin? So we needed a plant source 134 00:08:15,556 --> 00:08:18,916 Speaker 1: of heme at scale. This this is known in botany 135 00:08:19,396 --> 00:08:24,116 Speaker 1: that legums, that plants that fix nitrogen. They take atmospheric 136 00:08:24,196 --> 00:08:28,996 Speaker 1: nitrogen and turn it into a monitarne into fertilizer. They 137 00:08:29,036 --> 00:08:31,116 Speaker 1: have the structure called a root nodule that does that 138 00:08:31,236 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: little trick. And the root nodule contains very high concentrations 139 00:08:36,556 --> 00:08:40,756 Speaker 1: of a hem protein called leg hemoglobin. Okay, okay, And 140 00:08:40,956 --> 00:08:44,756 Speaker 1: leg hemoglobin presumably is like it's like hemoglobin like in animals, 141 00:08:44,756 --> 00:08:48,036 Speaker 1: but from a legum. Is that what leg hemoglobin means exactly. 142 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:51,596 Speaker 1: You figured it out. It's actually structurally extremely similar, like 143 00:08:52,036 --> 00:08:54,356 Speaker 1: you would pick it out in a lineup as being 144 00:08:54,396 --> 00:08:58,516 Speaker 1: identical to myoglobin, which is the hem protein and muscle tissue. 145 00:08:58,596 --> 00:09:01,236 Speaker 1: So if you're looking to make meat from plants, that 146 00:09:01,436 --> 00:09:05,236 Speaker 1: is a very promising protein. Is a correctical to protein. 147 00:09:05,276 --> 00:09:07,516 Speaker 1: By the way, sorry remedial questions. So like hemoglobin is 148 00:09:07,556 --> 00:09:11,716 Speaker 1: a protein, I celic that the amount of leg hemoglobin 149 00:09:12,316 --> 00:09:17,756 Speaker 1: in the roots of the US soybean crop would be 150 00:09:17,876 --> 00:09:20,156 Speaker 1: enough to match all the hem and all the meat 151 00:09:20,676 --> 00:09:23,996 Speaker 1: consumed in the US. Okay, okay, good news. So it 152 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:26,396 Speaker 1: seemed like, oh, bingo, that's how we'll do it. Well, 153 00:09:26,796 --> 00:09:30,316 Speaker 1: we'll just harvest the root nodules from soybean something that 154 00:09:30,356 --> 00:09:34,356 Speaker 1: nobody was bothering to harvest. That's amazing. They're growing it anyways, 155 00:09:34,356 --> 00:09:37,076 Speaker 1: and they're just getting rid of it right perfect. So, 156 00:09:37,316 --> 00:09:42,116 Speaker 1: for the first year or so, our primary effort was 157 00:09:42,196 --> 00:09:43,996 Speaker 1: figuring out how to go a scale source of a 158 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:48,676 Speaker 1: hem protein okay, and in particular soyle hemoglobin, in particular 159 00:09:48,716 --> 00:09:52,636 Speaker 1: soilake hemoglobin, because it was the only plant source of 160 00:09:52,756 --> 00:09:56,276 Speaker 1: a hem protein that was a sufficient scale anyway, So 161 00:09:57,676 --> 00:10:01,276 Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time in fields of soybeans 162 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:05,236 Speaker 1: figuring out how to harvest the root nodules. There are 163 00:10:05,236 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 1: some ludicrous videos of the contraptions we built for that. 164 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 1: Give me an example, you say ludicrous video and contraption. 165 00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:15,396 Speaker 1: One of the first things we did was we went 166 00:10:15,436 --> 00:10:19,116 Speaker 1: to a soybean farm that was owned by the cousin 167 00:10:19,276 --> 00:10:25,876 Speaker 1: of our chief businessperson in Minnesota and harvested a couple 168 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:28,996 Speaker 1: of acres of soybeans, dug them up with a potato digger, 169 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:30,956 Speaker 1: and then we had to figure out how to separate 170 00:10:30,996 --> 00:10:34,436 Speaker 1: these nodules, which are like two millimeters in diameter attached 171 00:10:34,436 --> 00:10:37,476 Speaker 1: to these fragile threads of roots, and they're buried in dirt, 172 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:41,276 Speaker 1: so we could isolate it while we built a contraption 173 00:10:41,436 --> 00:10:45,556 Speaker 1: out of sheets of plywood and then the bottoms of 174 00:10:45,676 --> 00:10:49,876 Speaker 1: Janitor brooms, you know those rectangular rooms. And then we've 175 00:10:50,116 --> 00:10:53,476 Speaker 1: brought along a street sweeper that has this big spinning 176 00:10:53,556 --> 00:11:00,316 Speaker 1: room so that that broom would cross with the Janter brooms. 177 00:11:00,796 --> 00:11:04,836 Speaker 1: And then I was doing a lot of this shoving 178 00:11:05,396 --> 00:11:10,796 Speaker 1: these soybean roots under this wheat streeper so that the 179 00:11:10,836 --> 00:11:14,116 Speaker 1: spinning thing could rip the nodules off from the rest 180 00:11:14,116 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 1: of the plant. Did it work? Did it work? It worked? Okay, 181 00:11:19,716 --> 00:11:23,196 Speaker 1: But here's the problem. Okay, when we looked at the 182 00:11:23,396 --> 00:11:26,716 Speaker 1: entirety of it, after six months or more of trying 183 00:11:26,756 --> 00:11:30,436 Speaker 1: this approach, we realized that the cost and complexity of 184 00:11:31,596 --> 00:11:33,436 Speaker 1: getting rid of the dirt and all the other crap 185 00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:36,876 Speaker 1: from the root nodules made it. Basically the economics didn't 186 00:11:36,876 --> 00:11:39,276 Speaker 1: look like they were going to scale. So, but meanwhile 187 00:11:39,316 --> 00:11:41,036 Speaker 1: we got enough of the soil people who are willing 188 00:11:41,116 --> 00:11:44,036 Speaker 1: to prove that this is the magic ingredient for meat flavors. 189 00:11:44,076 --> 00:11:45,996 Speaker 1: Then the question was, Okay, we need another way to 190 00:11:46,076 --> 00:11:50,316 Speaker 1: get this to scale. So we knew just from the 191 00:11:50,356 --> 00:11:54,236 Speaker 1: economics of producing proteins by fermentation and so forth, that 192 00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:58,876 Speaker 1: that was potentially doable. Producing proteins by fermentation, that's a 193 00:11:58,876 --> 00:12:02,156 Speaker 1: whole other thing that doesn't actually involve soybeans or dirt 194 00:12:02,276 --> 00:12:04,516 Speaker 1: or anything. Right. Yeah, So this has done a lot. 195 00:12:04,556 --> 00:12:07,196 Speaker 1: You know, most of the enzymes that are in your detergents, 196 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:10,516 Speaker 1: A lot of the enzymes they're using breadmaking and stuff 197 00:12:10,516 --> 00:12:14,316 Speaker 1: like that are produced by microorganisms that have been engineered 198 00:12:14,356 --> 00:12:18,596 Speaker 1: with the genes that encode those those proteins and so forth. 199 00:12:18,596 --> 00:12:23,036 Speaker 1: This has been going on for decades, so that technology 200 00:12:23,156 --> 00:12:26,276 Speaker 1: is reasonably mature in its own right, and so we 201 00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:28,356 Speaker 1: could project the economics of it and seem like this 202 00:12:28,396 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 1: would be scalable and doable and so forth. So just 203 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:32,956 Speaker 1: to be clear, you decide that instead of trying to 204 00:12:32,956 --> 00:12:36,876 Speaker 1: get soileg hemoglobin out of the roots of soybeans, you're 205 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:39,516 Speaker 1: going to take the gene that produces soi leg hemoglobin, 206 00:12:40,036 --> 00:12:43,676 Speaker 1: put it into yeast and grow the soileg hemoglobin in 207 00:12:43,676 --> 00:12:47,836 Speaker 1: a vat. You're going to cut out the soybean middleman. Yes, exactly, exactly, Okay, 208 00:12:47,996 --> 00:12:49,796 Speaker 1: I mean it comes to mind, like why not just 209 00:12:49,956 --> 00:12:52,036 Speaker 1: do the one that's in a cow? Right? It is 210 00:12:52,036 --> 00:12:54,436 Speaker 1: that a dumb question? No, it's not at all dumb question, 211 00:12:54,516 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 1: and it's actually one of the ones that we looked 212 00:12:56,916 --> 00:12:59,516 Speaker 1: at was bovi and myoglobin, which is the one that's 213 00:12:59,516 --> 00:13:03,156 Speaker 1: in a cow. But we also looked at similar heame 214 00:13:03,196 --> 00:13:06,996 Speaker 1: proteins from everything from paramecium to barley and the end 215 00:13:07,036 --> 00:13:09,516 Speaker 1: we looked at three dollsand different heame proteins, and just 216 00:13:09,676 --> 00:13:13,956 Speaker 1: by random chance, the best performing one was soilo hemoglobin. 217 00:13:14,316 --> 00:13:17,756 Speaker 1: Best performing meaning it just made the tastiest burger, stayed 218 00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:20,436 Speaker 1: fresh the longest, was the best behaved in terms of 219 00:13:20,516 --> 00:13:22,956 Speaker 1: expressing in yeast, in terms of being able to be 220 00:13:23,036 --> 00:13:28,236 Speaker 1: isolated efficiently, in terms of not turning brown, sound up, 221 00:13:28,236 --> 00:13:33,396 Speaker 1: putting the planting then code soil hemoglobin into yeast, do 222 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:35,996 Speaker 1: you know? And so they were able to produce it 223 00:13:40,476 --> 00:13:44,356 Speaker 1: in a minute. Impossible burgers are still way more expensive 224 00:13:44,516 --> 00:13:46,996 Speaker 1: than beef burgers. What's it going to take for the 225 00:13:47,036 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: price to come down? Also, when will I be able 226 00:13:50,276 --> 00:14:02,436 Speaker 1: to order an impossible steak? That's the end of the ads. 227 00:14:02,876 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 1: Now we're going back to the show. Let's talk briefly 228 00:14:05,916 --> 00:14:09,676 Speaker 1: about oh, health and safety. I like that you're not 229 00:14:09,796 --> 00:14:12,196 Speaker 1: trying to make like a super healthy burger, right. I 230 00:14:12,276 --> 00:14:14,196 Speaker 1: like that you're trying to make a burger that's like 231 00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:16,436 Speaker 1: a burger, and a burger is not that healthy? Right? 232 00:14:16,796 --> 00:14:18,436 Speaker 1: First of all, is that a fair way to think 233 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:20,076 Speaker 1: about it? Like you're not trying to make health food, 234 00:14:20,076 --> 00:14:22,116 Speaker 1: You're trying to make something that is delicious, like meat 235 00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 1: is delicious, but without an animal. It's almost fair. But 236 00:14:27,316 --> 00:14:28,916 Speaker 1: I want to do better than almost sure. I want 237 00:14:28,916 --> 00:14:30,876 Speaker 1: to get to face. We want to make something that 238 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 1: delivers what meat consumers want, which is above all, a 239 00:14:35,596 --> 00:14:39,836 Speaker 1: delicious eating experience, and we can't compromise on that, but 240 00:14:40,316 --> 00:14:42,956 Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to make it healthier than the 241 00:14:42,996 --> 00:14:47,636 Speaker 1: cow version, Okay. And one of our core principles has 242 00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:51,396 Speaker 1: always been We're never going to sell a product that 243 00:14:51,516 --> 00:14:54,916 Speaker 1: we don't believe, based on the evidence, is healthier than 244 00:14:54,956 --> 00:15:00,356 Speaker 1: what it replaces. Not healthier than a salad, but healthier 245 00:15:00,396 --> 00:15:02,956 Speaker 1: than a burger made from a cow, or a chicken 246 00:15:03,036 --> 00:15:07,276 Speaker 1: nugget made from a chicken, or whatever product it's intended 247 00:15:07,316 --> 00:15:11,156 Speaker 1: to replace. So we are very conscientious about health and nutrition, 248 00:15:11,836 --> 00:15:15,036 Speaker 1: but within the context of a product that consumers actually 249 00:15:15,076 --> 00:15:19,316 Speaker 1: want to buy in place of specific animal products. Right. 250 00:15:19,356 --> 00:15:22,316 Speaker 1: Your target customer is not a vegetarian, right, It's a 251 00:15:22,316 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 1: person who eats burgers, and you want that person to 252 00:15:24,596 --> 00:15:27,476 Speaker 1: buy an impossible foods burger because they like it better, 253 00:15:27,636 --> 00:15:29,836 Speaker 1: not because they feel bad about cows or climate change 254 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:34,076 Speaker 1: or whatever. Right, Yeah, exactly. You know. The problem that 255 00:15:34,196 --> 00:15:37,836 Speaker 1: I'm trying to solve is that this industry is supported 256 00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:40,556 Speaker 1: by people who love meat, Okay, and for us to 257 00:15:40,636 --> 00:15:44,796 Speaker 1: compete them out of existence, we have to give them 258 00:15:44,836 --> 00:15:47,516 Speaker 1: exactly what they want and do it better than the animal, 259 00:15:48,196 --> 00:15:51,876 Speaker 1: and we're not interested in serving vegetarians. Perfectly, I love 260 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:54,756 Speaker 1: vegetarians and vegans as much as the next guy. Okay, 261 00:15:55,396 --> 00:15:59,076 Speaker 1: I'm vegan, my wife is vegan, no offense, but we 262 00:15:59,116 --> 00:16:02,356 Speaker 1: don't accomplish anything by making better meat for vegans. One 263 00:16:02,356 --> 00:16:08,276 Speaker 1: other thing on health and safety is, well, just that 264 00:16:08,356 --> 00:16:11,196 Speaker 1: what you're doing is novel. Right. I'm interested in it 265 00:16:11,236 --> 00:16:13,956 Speaker 1: because you are out on the technological frontier trying to 266 00:16:13,956 --> 00:16:16,676 Speaker 1: solve what is clearly a very large problem. At the 267 00:16:16,756 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: same time, you know, it seems to me there's a 268 00:16:20,996 --> 00:16:23,596 Speaker 1: kind of common sense in eating things that people have 269 00:16:23,636 --> 00:16:27,796 Speaker 1: eaten for a long time and being cautious about new 270 00:16:28,116 --> 00:16:30,756 Speaker 1: kinds of foods, not new mixtures of old foods, but 271 00:16:30,796 --> 00:16:34,796 Speaker 1: actually new kinds of foods. And I think of, say, margarine, right, 272 00:16:34,836 --> 00:16:38,676 Speaker 1: which was introduced as a healthier alternative to butter and proved. 273 00:16:38,716 --> 00:16:40,116 Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say at this point to 274 00:16:40,156 --> 00:16:43,396 Speaker 1: be less healthy than butter. Help me not worry. Convince 275 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:46,196 Speaker 1: me that impossible burgers are not margarine. So if you 276 00:16:46,236 --> 00:16:50,916 Speaker 1: look at our product, okay, there's nothing at them like 277 00:16:50,996 --> 00:16:55,236 Speaker 1: your level that isn't an abundant part of the human diet. Humans, 278 00:16:55,316 --> 00:17:00,796 Speaker 1: for example, consume thousands of different heam proteins every single 279 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:05,396 Speaker 1: day in their normal diet, because every plant has hundreds 280 00:17:05,396 --> 00:17:08,996 Speaker 1: of hem proteins, all the meats have their own different 281 00:17:09,156 --> 00:17:12,196 Speaker 1: heam proteins, and so forth. The other ingredients in our 282 00:17:12,236 --> 00:17:15,196 Speaker 1: product are all things that have been part of the 283 00:17:15,276 --> 00:17:19,916 Speaker 1: human diet for decades, if not centuries, okay, and most 284 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: of them have been really really well studied in terms 285 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:27,996 Speaker 1: of their nutrition and health properties. When will an impossible 286 00:17:27,996 --> 00:17:31,116 Speaker 1: burger be cheaper than a beef burger, Well, the definite 287 00:17:31,116 --> 00:17:35,676 Speaker 1: answer is eventually, because producing it requires one twenty fifth 288 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:37,436 Speaker 1: the land, at tenth the water, less than a tenth 289 00:17:37,436 --> 00:17:41,236 Speaker 1: the fertilizer, and agrochemicals, less farm labor growing plants, no 290 00:17:41,396 --> 00:17:44,356 Speaker 1: farm labor, imagine the animals, and our production process is 291 00:17:44,396 --> 00:17:47,636 Speaker 1: much more labor efficient, and yet it's more expensive now 292 00:17:47,756 --> 00:17:50,156 Speaker 1: in spite of all that. But the point is, the 293 00:17:50,396 --> 00:17:55,356 Speaker 1: fundamental economics of the technology are vastly, vastly better. Again, 294 00:17:55,476 --> 00:17:58,236 Speaker 1: all the inputs, all the costly inputs of agriculture are 295 00:17:58,636 --> 00:18:01,516 Speaker 1: much much less, like not just a little less. But 296 00:18:01,636 --> 00:18:05,716 Speaker 1: the difference is that the incumbent industry already has all 297 00:18:05,796 --> 00:18:10,436 Speaker 1: its infrastructure in a place doesn't have to introduce a 298 00:18:10,476 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: new project product that consumers can't imagine and haven't heard of. Yeah, 299 00:18:15,076 --> 00:18:18,676 Speaker 1: and we are building all our everything about our business 300 00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 1: from scratch, which means we have to be investing in 301 00:18:23,236 --> 00:18:27,916 Speaker 1: that continually making investments. And we're not nearly at their scale, 302 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:32,036 Speaker 1: but as emtotically at scale. It's no contest. So look, 303 00:18:32,396 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 1: I'm a fan of impossible burghers. I grilled them for 304 00:18:35,156 --> 00:18:37,556 Speaker 1: my family last night. True story. The impossible Whopper is 305 00:18:37,596 --> 00:18:39,556 Speaker 1: our go to road trip food. I'm not a vegetarian, 306 00:18:39,636 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 1: but some people in my family are, and I'm happy 307 00:18:41,796 --> 00:18:45,956 Speaker 1: to not eat beef. So what's next? And in particular, 308 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:47,956 Speaker 1: I would love for you to tell me the story 309 00:18:47,996 --> 00:18:51,276 Speaker 1: of something you haven't cracked yet, whether it's steak or 310 00:18:51,516 --> 00:18:54,596 Speaker 1: chicken breast. I mean, those things seem way harder than 311 00:18:54,756 --> 00:18:59,156 Speaker 1: ground meat. Is there something some problem you haven't solved 312 00:18:59,236 --> 00:19:01,276 Speaker 1: yet that you can just tell me about sort of 313 00:19:01,356 --> 00:19:04,116 Speaker 1: how you're trying to do it? What hasn't worked when 314 00:19:04,396 --> 00:19:07,076 Speaker 1: we started out, Okay, we took on a problem that 315 00:19:07,156 --> 00:19:10,236 Speaker 1: we didn't know how to solve. Right. We believed it 316 00:19:10,476 --> 00:19:14,596 Speaker 1: was solvable based on not fantasy but understanding the biochemistry. 317 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:16,276 Speaker 1: But we didn't know how. We had to figure it out, 318 00:19:16,916 --> 00:19:19,596 Speaker 1: and every new product, if it's not already on the market, 319 00:19:19,956 --> 00:19:22,596 Speaker 1: we're still figuring it out. And we have very high standards. 320 00:19:22,636 --> 00:19:25,876 Speaker 1: So we've had a lot of products that you know what, 321 00:19:26,036 --> 00:19:28,796 Speaker 1: have been successful in the market well before we launch them. 322 00:19:29,276 --> 00:19:32,316 Speaker 1: But we want to launch products only if we believe 323 00:19:32,356 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 1: they can successfully compete against the best animal products on 324 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:39,596 Speaker 1: the market. So we're working on hull cuts like you 325 00:19:39,676 --> 00:19:43,236 Speaker 1: could say steak and chicken breast, and that seems so 326 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:46,236 Speaker 1: much harder, is it? It's harder in a different way. 327 00:19:46,556 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 1: Do you have to kind of start from square one? No, 328 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:51,396 Speaker 1: we don't have to start again because because first of all, 329 00:19:51,596 --> 00:19:54,916 Speaker 1: we've already figured out the fundamentals of the flavor chemistry. 330 00:19:55,116 --> 00:19:58,396 Speaker 1: So the different thing about hull cuts they have the 331 00:19:58,556 --> 00:20:01,996 Speaker 1: same kind of components, but they have anatomy okay, and 332 00:20:02,196 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 1: they have a different texture and cooking behavior you know 333 00:20:06,276 --> 00:20:09,916 Speaker 1: related to that. Yeah, but we understand and it pretty well. 334 00:20:10,556 --> 00:20:13,676 Speaker 1: We're making great progress. Let's just say, um, but I 335 00:20:13,756 --> 00:20:16,196 Speaker 1: don't want to say anything more anyway. The point is, yes, 336 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 1: it's a harder problem. It's not I would say a 337 00:20:18,716 --> 00:20:22,996 Speaker 1: step function harder. It's just it's just got additional sort 338 00:20:23,036 --> 00:20:26,916 Speaker 1: of technical engineering challenges that we have to figure out. 339 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:29,476 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be saying it if I wasn't highly confident 340 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:32,716 Speaker 1: that we're going to have something to launch the world 341 00:20:32,796 --> 00:20:34,836 Speaker 1: within the next, say, couple of years. What are you 342 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:37,316 Speaker 1: going to launch? And by when more or less, we 343 00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:42,236 Speaker 1: certainly expect to be launching a great steak product and 344 00:20:42,476 --> 00:20:45,596 Speaker 1: other hole cuts you can think of as like pork 345 00:20:45,716 --> 00:20:51,316 Speaker 1: tenderloin or chicken breast or like great pieces of meat 346 00:20:51,436 --> 00:20:55,316 Speaker 1: years pieces of meat that have that have the anatomy, 347 00:20:55,436 --> 00:20:58,156 Speaker 1: if you know what I mean. Yeah, Yeah, within a 348 00:20:58,196 --> 00:21:00,796 Speaker 1: couple of years, meaning like twenty twenty four ish. You know, 349 00:21:01,036 --> 00:21:03,876 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna make promises here, but 350 00:21:03,956 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 1: I would say pretty high confidence. Yes, Impossible Foods has 351 00:21:12,156 --> 00:21:16,036 Speaker 1: made a profoundly better veggie burger, but the company still 352 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:18,276 Speaker 1: has a ways to go to solve that big problem 353 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:22,476 Speaker 1: slash dream of really making meat without animals, which is 354 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:25,556 Speaker 1: an absurdly big, hard problem that lots of companies are 355 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:29,596 Speaker 1: working on. We'll have more about that next week, including 356 00:21:29,636 --> 00:21:32,356 Speaker 1: both some of the struggles the industry has been going 357 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:35,516 Speaker 1: through lately and also more on what may be coming 358 00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:38,396 Speaker 1: in the next few years. But before we go to day, 359 00:21:38,916 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 1: we'll do the lightning round. That's in a minute. Okay, 360 00:21:48,796 --> 00:21:50,956 Speaker 1: let's get back to the show. We're gonna close with 361 00:21:50,996 --> 00:21:56,196 Speaker 1: the lightning round. What's the most overrated vegetable? That's interesting? 362 00:21:57,396 --> 00:22:00,876 Speaker 1: I think the sweet potnia. I'm gonna get some haymail 363 00:22:00,916 --> 00:22:03,396 Speaker 1: on that one. But sweet potato, Heymail's good, Hey mail. 364 00:22:03,676 --> 00:22:07,836 Speaker 1: What's the most underrated vegetable? That's really tough fun. Oh 365 00:22:07,916 --> 00:22:11,076 Speaker 1: maybe Brussels spread. Okay, they've made a comeback. It's a 366 00:22:11,196 --> 00:22:14,316 Speaker 1: divisive one. They've made a comeback. Yeah, they're hip, They're 367 00:22:14,436 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 1: it vegetable. I'm a fan. If everything goes well, what's 368 00:22:17,356 --> 00:22:21,516 Speaker 1: a problem you'll be trying to solve in say, five years. Oh, actually, 369 00:22:21,596 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 1: that's a very good question. So and impossible foods. What 370 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:30,516 Speaker 1: we're doing is using market competition to reduce the economic 371 00:22:30,636 --> 00:22:34,956 Speaker 1: incentive for covering land with cows and crops to feed 372 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:39,516 Speaker 1: pigs and chickens and stuff like that. Right. The next step, though, 373 00:22:39,796 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: is what to do with that land and how to 374 00:22:42,236 --> 00:22:45,196 Speaker 1: make the most of the opportunity. Okay, here's another question. 375 00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:48,156 Speaker 1: There are other companies trying to do what you do. 376 00:22:48,436 --> 00:22:50,476 Speaker 1: Beyond meat is a big one. There's lots of others. 377 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:54,636 Speaker 1: You are clearly driven by mission, right, I believe that 378 00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:56,356 Speaker 1: you are not in this to get rich or whatever. 379 00:22:56,476 --> 00:23:00,596 Speaker 1: So does it matter to you whether Impossible Food winds 380 00:23:00,716 --> 00:23:04,716 Speaker 1: or some other company makes incredible technology that makes meat obsolete? Like, 381 00:23:04,836 --> 00:23:07,276 Speaker 1: does that matter to who wins? Not? Really? No, I 382 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:09,436 Speaker 1: mean it matters to me a little bit. Now that 383 00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:11,396 Speaker 1: I have the company. There are people who you know, 384 00:23:11,596 --> 00:23:14,956 Speaker 1: depend on it for their jobs. But basically, even the 385 00:23:15,116 --> 00:23:17,636 Speaker 1: from the standpoint of our business, the best thing that 386 00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:22,076 Speaker 1: could happen with other companies is for them to make 387 00:23:22,876 --> 00:23:27,556 Speaker 1: better products. Okay, because the biggest obstacle to you know, 388 00:23:27,756 --> 00:23:31,636 Speaker 1: our growth and traction and so forth is there's a 389 00:23:31,876 --> 00:23:35,996 Speaker 1: very strong preconceived notion that any purported meat product that's 390 00:23:36,036 --> 00:23:41,476 Speaker 1: made from plants is going to suck and making more 391 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:45,356 Speaker 1: products that reinforce that notion only hurts us. So I 392 00:23:45,436 --> 00:23:48,436 Speaker 1: would love to see any any plant based company, any 393 00:23:48,476 --> 00:23:50,636 Speaker 1: company that's trying to replace animals in the food system, 394 00:23:50,676 --> 00:23:52,996 Speaker 1: however they're doing it as far as I'm concerned as 395 00:23:52,996 --> 00:23:56,636 Speaker 1: an ally, and I sincerely wish them the best success. 396 00:24:02,476 --> 00:24:05,716 Speaker 1: Pat Brown is the founder of Impossible Foods. He's currently 397 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:08,156 Speaker 1: on leave from the company, scheduled to return in March. 398 00:24:08,516 --> 00:24:11,196 Speaker 1: I spoke with m last year. Next week, we'll have 399 00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:14,076 Speaker 1: more on the future of fake meat, including a company 400 00:24:14,156 --> 00:24:17,276 Speaker 1: trying to grow meat from animal cells. Which do you 401 00:24:17,356 --> 00:24:19,676 Speaker 1: even call it fake meat anymore? If it's made from 402 00:24:19,676 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 1: animal cells? Truly, I don't know. Today's show was produced 403 00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:27,076 Speaker 1: by Edith Russolo, edited by Robert Smith and Sarah Knicks, 404 00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:31,196 Speaker 1: and engineered by Amanda k Wong. I'm Jacob Goldstein. You 405 00:24:31,316 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter I'm at Jacob Goldstein, or 406 00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:37,516 Speaker 1: you can email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. 407 00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:40,156 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with another episode of What's 408 00:24:40,196 --> 00:24:40,676 Speaker 1: Your Problem.