WEBVTT - The World of Dogs 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:06.840 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Brooklyn 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:09.480 Heights was an enchanting place to grow up, but as 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:11.959 far as I could see, it was also a world 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:16.079 that tended towards stiff lips and alcohol over transparency and 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:21.640 self reflection. A world a time too perhaps, that championed 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:26.759 achievement and less so emotional truth. Nothing was named in 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:30.920 this beautiful world. We were what we put on every day. 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:34.280 We were the stories we told. We were the food, 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:39.040 the wine, the linen. There's a strength to this approach, 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:44.280 a relentlessness of survival and success. And I learned early 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.720 that this works for some, that this for some will 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:52.000 always be enough. For others would be more than enough 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.240 and more than they had. I also learned that this 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.240 was not what I needed. That there was a danger. 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.520 Even when the choreography of life depends upon the denial 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.560 of so much of the rest, of all that is 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:12.119 messy and undeniable, of all that is human. Success even 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.679 becomes a wicked word when your own definition of it 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.960 is different from that of the ones hoping for you 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:23.040 to succeed. When it becomes clear that it's you who 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:31.400 is different. That's Chloe Shaw, author of the luminous memoir, 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:36.240 What Is a Dog? Chloe's story is tender and beautiful, 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:39.800 and at its center is about the secrets we hold 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.720 in our innermost selves, the ones that don't allow others 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.800 to know us and rob us of our voice. It's 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.920 also about the saving graces all around us, if only 0:01:51.960 --> 0:02:08.320 we know where to look. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.600 is family secrets, secrets that are kept from us, the 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.480 secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we keep 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:24.639 from ourselves. I'm an only child. We ended up when 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:28.000 I was about eighteen months old in Brooklyn Heights, New York, 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.880 due to my father's job as an architect. And you know, 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.960 I grew up in this pretty dazzling historic section of 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:42.240 New York City, a very tight knit community in many ways. 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.160 The first house we moved into, you know, I barely remember. 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.680 But the real big memory from that house is the 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.160 death of our first dog. It's easy. Who was my 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:55.040 parents first baby. I just remember her collapsing on the 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.720 kitchen floor and then I never saw her again, and 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:05.280 you were held. I was probably four. The first house 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.240 Chloe does remember well is on pure Pont Street, also 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.120 in Brooklyn Heights. She and her parents moved into the 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:15.320 three floor brownstone shortly after Easy has died. The house 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:17.480 is in a massive state of renovation when they move in. 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:21.280 Her father is an architect after all, but eventually the 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:25.200 work is finished and the house becomes a home. He 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.240 would walk up the front stoop and come into the vestibule, 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.600 and there was a big grandfather clock, a beautiful clock 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.400 that has been in my family for many, many years. 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:40.160 And you'd go up to the first floor, and that's 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.400 where the living room and the dining room in the 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:47.440 kitchen were. I feel like kitchens there where people collect. 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.480 So much happens there. So we spent a ton of 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.200 time in this tiny, tiny kitchen, where my mom um 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.880 had a catering business from for a bunch of years 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.880 of my childhood. And then upstairs on the second floor 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.280 were the bedrooms. We all had our spots in the house, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.240 probably being an only child, but also just all of 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:14.400 us being the people we are and were. It wasn't 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.839 the kind of situation where we'd often be all hanging 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.320 around together in the living room playing a board game 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.159 or you know, unless there was a specific meal or 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.159 an event or friends over. What were your three spots 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.920 they were the kitchen usually for my mom. My dad 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.200 was in his study, so that was also actually on 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.279 the on the first floor, and I was in my 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:42.479 bedroom with my dog Agatha. Agatha, when I was six, 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:44.919 was a puppy. E is funny. In my mind, I 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.719 thought we had her for a few months at least, 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:49.880 but I talked it over with my mom. I think 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.560 it was just like a few days. It's amazing what 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.360 childhood is sort of, you know what trauma and and 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.080 and memory can do. So and Agatha was what kind 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.680 of job washing? So she was a Scottish terrier and 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.680 my dad had gotten her for me for Christmas and 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.440 she had parvo, so before we even got her, she 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:14.839 was gravely Oh and I actually just found this little 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.680 book that I wrote. It's just my scribble, and it 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.000 says we got a dog and I liked her, but 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.960 she died and I cried. Sorry, I mean to laugh. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:28.680 It's an entire no I know. When I found this, 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.560 I thought, wait, I already wrote this book, because then 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:33.880 it says before we took her to the vet she 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.960 got very sick. I loved my dog, and I still cried. 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.279 And their pictures of me through out with this little 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:47.920 sad puppy, um who Yeah, it was never well and 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.320 she died and that was a really I mean, like 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.280 I said, I remember Easy dying. I remember watching her 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.800 collapse in our kitchen, Um, and the disappearance of her, 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.840 I guess is what really stays with me. He was 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.039 an Afghan hound and that's a big dog, and she 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:09.040 was just gone. I'm sure my parents did say something 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.640 about you know, I knew she had died, but I don't. 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.120 I didn't know what death was then. You know, that 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:20.520 was death. That was my first experience. And then after 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:26.000 as the one, your mom took her to the vet. Right, 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.520 and another dog in your life and another being that 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:38.560 you love vanishes, that's right. As a child, what was 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.359 your relationship with your mother and with your father? Like 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.560 it's hard to talk about just one of them at 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:47.560 a time, which is kind of interesting to me as 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:52.360 I'm realizing that it feels sort of like my only child, miss, 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:58.159 where I kind of had one at a time. So 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:03.560 whatever was happening, often it was just my dad and me, 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.400 or my mom and me. Um, even if it was 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.840 like a conversation or you know, an event that was 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.400 happening when we were a threeso amount in the world. 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:18.800 It actually felt the strangest to me. Um, I think 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.240 I think it felt confusing, because I think I always 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:28.640 felt like I was a little bit like either on 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.200 my mom's side of whatever was happening or on my 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:36.760 dad's side. So to know me as myself was kind 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:43.120 of scary in a way. About six months after Chloe 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:47.280 loses her puppy Agatha to parvo, her family gets another dog. 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:53.000 They name her Agatha too. Agatha Too would be my 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.080 beloved until I was eighteen years old. I mean, she 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:02.960 was my whole childhood. Thing that I processed kind of 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:07.520 in retrospect was that my mom I found out only 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.120 in my thirties that she had had a miscarriage in 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:16.000 our old apartment was Easy, so when we moved, you know, 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:21.160 they lost their first baby easy and then their actual 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.880 second baby. So this would have been a younger sibling 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.000 for you, a younger sibling exactly. I mean, I don't 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.120 know how far along she was, but I know they 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.440 were kind of trying to figure out there that at 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.839 that point, their small little Brooklyn apartment and um, who 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.600 would sleep were kind of thing. But as we all know, 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.319 that grief was just carried along into the new house. 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:46.320 I always think about that and how much I knew 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.679 about that or didn't know, you know, and then to 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:53.200 have our puppy die so quickly, that's really interesting. So 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.520 you're saying you were in your thirties before you ever 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.520 knew that. I suppose miscarriages are often things that parents 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.840 don't talk about. Do you feel like it was um 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.720 somehow there in some way, shape or form, despite not 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:13.200 being talked about the way I think probably most things 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:17.400 that aren't talked about are yes, absolutely, And you know, 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:22.160 my family does tend in that direction completely, you know, 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.280 to just try to keep a stiff upper lip and 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:30.040 you know, carry on. So, you know, even the death 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:34.000 of Agatha one was so striking to me because that 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.360 was the little puppy who had par vot and it 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.280 was the first time I remember seeing my mom cry, 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.600 and one of the only times I feel like in 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.360 my life I've seen her cry. She came around the 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:48.199 corner to tell me that our puppy had died, and 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.760 my reaction to her crying was to laugh, and I 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:56.880 just I started laughing hysterically and like within a snap, 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:01.480 started sobbing because I realized what the reality was, but 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:06.520 the emotion there was so uncomfortable to me. Um, you know, 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.640 I think all those emotions that aren't shared are really 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.400 are really difficult and mirror everywhere. I mean, they kind 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:20.680 of just find places to sneak in Agatha two, let's 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.280 just call her Agatha from here on In is a 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:27.800 container for Chloe's secrets. Into this wee dog, Chloe pours 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:32.080 her whole self. She shares with her everything, as she 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:36.520 writes Squibbled inside the bright red cabin of her heart. 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.040 I would always just find her. I mean, my room 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.320 was a really special place to me. It felt like 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.920 a completely safe place that I made my own. But 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.079 almost even more than that was Agatha. So wherever she was, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.960 I felt alive and I felt safe, and I felt 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.959 just adored and adoring. So we would have little event 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.440 just even in the house. You know, I would, I 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.959 mean the way I still do. Honestly. I lie kind 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.280 of nose to nose with her. I would kind of 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:14.040 breathe in her breath, and I just felt like I 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.760 felt more known by her, which is kind of a 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.200 strange thing to say, I guess, But she just was 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:26.640 calm and quiet and funny and just accepted me. However 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.000 I was I think, you know, in the bigger world 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.040 I grew up in, I felt a little bit more 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:36.839 like I was supposed to be the good girl all 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.800 the time, and I was supposed to, you know, look 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:44.240 presentable and hold myself together. And of course I didn't 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:49.240 always feel that way, but I don't remember feeling in 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.440 a way that I couldn't do that, except when I 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.960 would cry in front of Agatha. So she was my 0:11:55.160 --> 0:12:00.440 little witness. My parents put on these incredible dinner parties 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:09.280 and just beautiful surroundings, beautiful people, and I was kind 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.600 of expected to show up and be present, and they've 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:17.880 always been much more social um and out in the 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.640 world in those beautiful ways, and where I've wanted to 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.640 kind of prolonge with the piano with my dog quite happily. 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.480 So you know, I found my favorite people. I made 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.920 it work, but it just was never I don't know, 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.280 it never felt natural to me, and I think partly 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.280 it was because I didn't feel seen or known in 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:45.400 those spaces. I felt a bit more like I was performing. 0:12:52.440 --> 0:13:10.800 We'll be right back. This need to show up to 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:16.160 perform leaves Chloe feeling anxious. She has recurring fears and 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.000 an active imagination that tends to run away with itself. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.839 She retreats into her room more and more, but her 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:27.520 fears find her there too. My room was kind of 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.600 my safe place, and I felt very known there, and 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:33.800 I felt like when I would get into my bed 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.360 at night, even when I did have this habit of 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.280 seeing sharks went through my room. I guess I was 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.200 always on my bed with me, so that made me 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.800 feel Okay, I can't describe them any better than they 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.920 are in my mind, but I saw these big sharks, 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.079 and I was terrified of sharks, and they would come 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.120 through my room. I was scared of wolves coming into 0:13:55.120 --> 0:14:00.720 our Brooklyn apartment, and I guess I lived with this 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.960 controlled response, like I wanted to control all of that 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.280 as much as I could, um the same way I 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.720 wanted to control the world around me. I mean, making 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:15.760 someone upset or disappointed or like, whether it was a 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:21.160 friend or my parents or whoever, there could be nothing worse. 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.280 So I was. I was also just a constant peacemaker, 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.320 but at the great expense of I think who I 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.880 felt like I really was often and I think in 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.160 the world of dogs, you know, that's not that's not 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.960 a known thing, so it felt more comfortable. Did you 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:45.480 ever tell anyone at that time about the sharks and 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.440 the wolves? My parents knew that I was scared. I 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:52.520 was scared of the dark, so as long as I 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.960 was in my bed, I was okay. You know. I 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.000 didn't know how to communicate it in a helpful way, um, 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.120 and they didn't probably know how to hear it in 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.680 a helpful way. I think they loved me. They were loving, 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:09.880 but it was also just a very uncomfortable situation to 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.600 have come up for them, you know, to know how 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.480 to handle it, to be someone who's not okay. They 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.920 are both very loving people, but I think they've sort 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.880 of done the best job they could do with how 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:27.240 they were parented as well. You know, emotional honesty was 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:33.720 not a huge theme in their households either. As Chloe 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.120 continues to see sharks and wolves around her, she develops 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.640 obsessive behaviors as a way to exert control over the 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:45.440 otherwise uncontrollable world. She begins to bite her fingernails. She 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:50.120 begins to walk differently, like a horse galloping. She begins 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.920 to rip strands of hair from her head and tie 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:55.280 them to door knobs of the places she and her 0:15:55.320 --> 0:16:01.880 family visit a way of whispering. Chloe was here. Thinking 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:06.160 back over that behavior, I almost see it as kind 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:10.080 of letting the world know I was there, you know, 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:14.720 because I often the most present feeling for me has 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:19.720 been wanting to disappear, to want to just not be seen, 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.280 even though that was probably what I most wanted, because 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.280 that's what I wasn't feeling was really known or seen, 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.760 you know, being visible. I was visible but not known. 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.000 So one of the things you write is these feelings 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.240 I was trying not to feel. We're starting to take 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:42.560 a toll. Yes, I think so often I was hiding, 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.920 not wanting to be found or not thinking I should 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.200 be found. But it does feel like there was a 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:53.040 message that I was kind of born into, of not 0:16:53.600 --> 0:17:00.960 not actually being known for who I am specifically. But 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:05.560 Chloe doesn't always know who she is specifically either. She 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:09.919 grows increasingly confused about where and if she belongs. In 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:13.440 addition to hiding her feelings, she starts to physically hide 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:17.240 herself too. Under the piano at her parents parties was 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:21.399 Agatha at her side. She starts to dissociate, to just 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.240 kind of float away, even when she has her first kiss, 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:30.359 she's not exactly there. For Thomas a very nice kid, 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.760 but I didn't want to kiss them, and so, you know, 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:36.960 I agreed to because I thought that's what I should do. 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:40.960 But yeah, I just went off and I found his 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.520 dog in the other room and kind of just said, 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.760 all right, I get this done and went off somewhere. 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.119 So I do think that it was it was mainly 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.199 a feeling of not wanting to be where I was 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.000 and to be who I was Whenever there was a 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.960 big emotion, and it could be a really wonderful emotion 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.280 or it could be a really terrifying emotion. Both were 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:10.800 uncomfortable for me. I would kind of float off into 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.080 some other world, you know that I had. It could 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.159 be with my dog, and it could be walking like 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.240 a horse, which it was also a little bit obsessive, 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:26.080 but it could be just really becoming a horse. A 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.840 couple of years later, Chloe and her classmates are watching 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.879 the Space Shuttle Challenger launch, and with so many others 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:40.280 around the world, they witness its devastating explosion. This haunts Chloe. 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.919 It's an awful thing to witness, proof that life is 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:48.400 terrifying and tragedy is everywhere, and it's real, reaching far 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.320 beyond the sharks and wolves in her bedroom. But even 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.920 though so much of the world is grieving and scared, 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:59.440 Chloe still hesitates to feel her deep feelings. The world 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.639 she's going up in doesn't seem to tolerate such a 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:07.560 depth of emotion. I did feel deeply, and I found 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:12.960 outlets for those feelings in certain ways, and then when 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:17.080 I wasn't able to share them because they didn't feel accepted, 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.719 I do feel like they bottled up, and you know, 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.480 sometimes it would just they just happened, you know. The 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:29.440 Challenger was a big one for me and my mom. 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:34.159 She was it was almost like she didn't quite know 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:36.080 what to do. So she told me to write to 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.760 Ronald Reagan and I did and I got a letter 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.320 back from him, which was exciting, just to get a 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:45.760 letter from the president. But she could have had these ways, 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.000 and my parents had ways of orienting me a little bit. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:51.840 When I think they didn't quite know what to do, 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.160 I think crying, you know, crying. It was a thing 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.000 in my childhood where it was very distressing to my 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:01.720 parents when I would cry, so I tried not to. 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.639 I think, don't cry was kind of a refrain in 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.639 my house. How would they respond if if you started 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.040 to cheer up about something, my mom would ask, you know, 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.320 why are you crying? Don't cry? You know, that would 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:19.040 be kind of a response, which she and I've talked 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:23.280 about as as I've been an adult, and you know, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.600 she's always saying how she didn't want me to feel 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:27.760 the pain. But I was also trying to say it. 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:32.160 But that's real, and I think the refrain was similar 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:37.040 in her house. It wasn't emotionally open, like crying is 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.240 fine or saying I love you, you know. I Mike 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:42.520 er Biglia, who is one of my favorite comedians, He 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.120 always talked about how his parents say I love you 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.119 by saying take care, and I just think that's the 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:53.520 funniest thing ever. You know, that's not the similar in 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.960 my house. I know I'm loved, but it also means 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.840 something to say certain words and also just be seen 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.240 for who you are and for what your emotions are 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:09.200 at any moment. Crying is a release, and if we're 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.760 told not to cry, all that sadness has no place 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.680 to go. It's a little like keeping a secret. Keeping 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.399 a secret doesn't mean it vanishes. It just means it 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:23.240 gets stored somewhere not very comfortable, and one way or 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:27.560 another it finds expression, usually in a distorted, toxic way. 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.679 It's the same with Chloe's pent up tears. They just 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:37.359 have to go somewhere else, somewhere hidden. I think the 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:41.080 three of us, my parents, and I have spent multiple 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:48.160 occasions all being terribly sad or stressed out, and the 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:56.440 main work that's happening is to not cry. We'll be 0:21:56.480 --> 0:22:14.800 back in a moment with more family secrets. When Chloe's 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:17.520 in the eighth grade, she's walking home from school one 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:21.080 afternoon and that feeling of wanting to disappear overtakes her. 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:25.000 There's a group of boys trailing behind. Some are her friends, 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:28.879 but she'd rather just keep moving, not say hello. But 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.520 then one boy catches up to her and gropes her. 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.400 This is horrifying enough, but the other boys in her 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:39.160 group her friends, just stand there and laugh. They don't 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:44.439 help her. A herd mentality kicks in and for a 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:50.320 few painfully long minutes, it's Chloe versus them. Chloe eventually 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.360 gets herself out of the herd and heads home to safety. 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.480 She does not tell her parents or even her closest friend. 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.840 Just like the trying, I held it somewhere in my body, 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.919 but I didn't feel it. I was already pretty scared 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:08.879 of the kid who actually growed me, and I just 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.080 kept a distance from him and the sad necessor the 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.240 tears or you know, any emotions. I kind of shoved 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:17.560 it somewhere, and my parents didn't know about that until 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:21.040 I wrote an essay about it, maybe seven years ago. 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:25.840 Six years ago. It's an interesting sort of statement about 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:31.680 communication with them. Definitely. Yeah. The following year, when Chloe 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.440 is a freshman in high school, she meets Josh, who's 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:37.440 a senior. They start dating and they stay together when 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:39.720 he goes off to college at Princeton, which is not 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:43.879 too far. They fall in love. He really sees Chloe 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:48.399 and knows Chloe something she's not used to. So I 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:54.120 definitely allowed him access to myself. You know. I think 0:23:54.240 --> 0:24:00.639 we experienced so many first together, and I really really 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:04.880 loved his mother and his father and his family in general. 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:11.199 I think that household offered me a place of greater 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:16.119 emotional support. And just you know, they would yell at 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:19.560 each other, they would It was just really something I 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:22.120 had not quite seen before because I thought you had 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:28.320 one argument, well, there goes that relationship. So was there 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:32.439 this sense of almost break ability in the house that 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:34.800 you grew up in, Like there was a need to 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:39.080 be careful with each other, like somehow like the messiness 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:45.159 of life, the flaws, the messy feelings were threatening or dangerous. 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:51.840 Definitely in my house, my parents when they had to 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:56.800 have some intense conversation or if emotions ran high, they 0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:00.720 would usually close themselves behind the door or you know, 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:02.960 and I understand as the parents, there are times and 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:07.240 that's appropriate, but there were also just things that involved 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:11.359 me and in Josh's family, when you would be there, 0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:15.600 what was the contrast? What was that like? They overwhelmed me? 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:18.960 To be honest, um, at first, I mean they were. 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:21.680 They were only nice to me, but they were overwhelming. 0:25:22.160 --> 0:25:26.080 All their emotions seemed on the surface, so if someone 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:29.159 was in a bad mood or if someone was really excited, 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:33.439 it all was right there, whereas you know, with my family, 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:37.399 it was just a much more guarded situation where you 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:39.919 could just feel that, or at least I could, and 0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:43.320 it felt terrible, you know, to not know how everyone 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:45.359 was feeling in the room, and even if it was 0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:49.880 something that you weren't feeling. Can't we talk about that? 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:55.639 I think I felt so much inside that couldn't be seen, 0:25:55.920 --> 0:26:01.000 and I feel like Dasha's family both saw it um 0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:04.560 but also just made a space for all of that 0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:11.399 to be acceptable. Finally, with Josh's family, Chloe is surrounded 0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:14.600 by people who aren't afraid to own their feelings. Just 0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:17.439 when Chloe thinks she might be able to sustain this, 0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:22.360 to own her feelings, Josh's mom becomes sick with cancer 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:27.720 and Agatha is also sick. Chloe starts to dissociate again, 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:33.959 and she does what she's done before. She floats outside herself, numb, unfeeling. 0:26:35.720 --> 0:26:38.119 It really felt like that time in my life that 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:40.720 I couldn't show up. I mean, I think, you know, 0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:46.359 Josh and I had this lovely, beautiful relationship and between 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:51.560 our families as well, But when it came to something 0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:55.959 as real as his mother, you know, potentially dying, I 0:26:56.000 --> 0:26:59.240 didn't face it the way I wished I had. I 0:26:59.320 --> 0:27:04.280 kind of left college and abandoned everything behind and broke 0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:07.600 up with him. Yes, yes, that's right. It's like the 0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:10.600 way you describe your parents leaving the first department in Brooklyn, 0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:13.720 you know where all that all that hard stuff happened, 0:27:13.720 --> 0:27:17.680 your mother's miscarriage and easy dying, and just this feeling 0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:23.200