1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Brooklyn 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Heights was an enchanting place to grow up, but as 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: far as I could see, it was also a world 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: that tended towards stiff lips and alcohol over transparency and 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: self reflection. A world a time too perhaps, that championed 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: achievement and less so emotional truth. Nothing was named in 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: this beautiful world. We were what we put on every day. 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: We were the stories we told. We were the food, 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: the wine, the linen. There's a strength to this approach, 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: a relentlessness of survival and success. And I learned early 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: that this works for some, that this for some will 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: always be enough. For others would be more than enough 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: and more than they had. I also learned that this 14 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: was not what I needed. That there was a danger. 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: Even when the choreography of life depends upon the denial 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: of so much of the rest, of all that is 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: messy and undeniable, of all that is human. Success even 18 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: becomes a wicked word when your own definition of it 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: is different from that of the ones hoping for you 20 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: to succeed. When it becomes clear that it's you who 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: is different. That's Chloe Shaw, author of the luminous memoir, 22 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: What Is a Dog? Chloe's story is tender and beautiful, 23 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: and at its center is about the secrets we hold 24 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: in our innermost selves, the ones that don't allow others 25 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: to know us and rob us of our voice. It's 26 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: also about the saving graces all around us, if only 27 00:01:51,960 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: we know where to look. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this 28 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: is family secrets, secrets that are kept from us, the 29 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we keep 30 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: from ourselves. I'm an only child. We ended up when 31 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: I was about eighteen months old in Brooklyn Heights, New York, 32 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: due to my father's job as an architect. And you know, 33 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: I grew up in this pretty dazzling historic section of 34 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: New York City, a very tight knit community in many ways. 35 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: The first house we moved into, you know, I barely remember. 36 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: But the real big memory from that house is the 37 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: death of our first dog. It's easy. Who was my 38 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: parents first baby. I just remember her collapsing on the 39 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: kitchen floor and then I never saw her again, and 40 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: you were held. I was probably four. The first house 41 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: Chloe does remember well is on pure Pont Street, also 42 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn Heights. She and her parents moved into the 43 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: three floor brownstone shortly after Easy has died. The house 44 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: is in a massive state of renovation when they move in. 45 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: Her father is an architect after all, but eventually the 46 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: work is finished and the house becomes a home. He 47 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: would walk up the front stoop and come into the vestibule, 48 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: and there was a big grandfather clock, a beautiful clock 49 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: that has been in my family for many, many years. 50 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: And you'd go up to the first floor, and that's 51 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: where the living room and the dining room in the 52 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: kitchen were. I feel like kitchens there where people collect. 53 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: So much happens there. So we spent a ton of 54 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: time in this tiny, tiny kitchen, where my mom um 55 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: had a catering business from for a bunch of years 56 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: of my childhood. And then upstairs on the second floor 57 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: were the bedrooms. We all had our spots in the house, 58 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: probably being an only child, but also just all of 59 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: us being the people we are and were. It wasn't 60 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: the kind of situation where we'd often be all hanging 61 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: around together in the living room playing a board game 62 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: or you know, unless there was a specific meal or 63 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: an event or friends over. What were your three spots 64 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: they were the kitchen usually for my mom. My dad 65 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: was in his study, so that was also actually on 66 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: the on the first floor, and I was in my 67 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: bedroom with my dog Agatha. Agatha, when I was six, 68 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: was a puppy. E is funny. In my mind, I 69 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: thought we had her for a few months at least, 70 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: but I talked it over with my mom. I think 71 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: it was just like a few days. It's amazing what 72 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: childhood is sort of, you know what trauma and and 73 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: and memory can do. So and Agatha was what kind 74 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: of job washing? So she was a Scottish terrier and 75 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: my dad had gotten her for me for Christmas and 76 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: she had parvo, so before we even got her, she 77 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: was gravely Oh and I actually just found this little 78 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: book that I wrote. It's just my scribble, and it 79 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: says we got a dog and I liked her, but 80 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: she died and I cried. Sorry, I mean to laugh. 81 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: It's an entire no I know. When I found this, 82 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: I thought, wait, I already wrote this book, because then 83 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: it says before we took her to the vet she 84 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: got very sick. I loved my dog, and I still cried. 85 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: And their pictures of me through out with this little 86 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: sad puppy, um who Yeah, it was never well and 87 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: she died and that was a really I mean, like 88 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: I said, I remember Easy dying. I remember watching her 89 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: collapse in our kitchen, Um, and the disappearance of her, 90 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: I guess is what really stays with me. He was 91 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: an Afghan hound and that's a big dog, and she 92 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: was just gone. I'm sure my parents did say something 93 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: about you know, I knew she had died, but I don't. 94 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know what death was then. You know, that 95 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: was death. That was my first experience. And then after 96 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: as the one, your mom took her to the vet. Right, 97 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: and another dog in your life and another being that 98 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: you love vanishes, that's right. As a child, what was 99 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: your relationship with your mother and with your father? Like 100 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: it's hard to talk about just one of them at 101 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: a time, which is kind of interesting to me as 102 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: I'm realizing that it feels sort of like my only child, miss, 103 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: where I kind of had one at a time. So 104 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: whatever was happening, often it was just my dad and me, 105 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: or my mom and me. Um, even if it was 106 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: like a conversation or you know, an event that was 107 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: happening when we were a threeso amount in the world. 108 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: It actually felt the strangest to me. Um, I think 109 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: I think it felt confusing, because I think I always 110 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: felt like I was a little bit like either on 111 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: my mom's side of whatever was happening or on my 112 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: dad's side. So to know me as myself was kind 113 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: of scary in a way. About six months after Chloe 114 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: loses her puppy Agatha to parvo, her family gets another dog. 115 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: They name her Agatha too. Agatha Too would be my 116 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: beloved until I was eighteen years old. I mean, she 117 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: was my whole childhood. Thing that I processed kind of 118 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: in retrospect was that my mom I found out only 119 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: in my thirties that she had had a miscarriage in 120 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: our old apartment was Easy, so when we moved, you know, 121 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: they lost their first baby easy and then their actual 122 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: second baby. So this would have been a younger sibling 123 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: for you, a younger sibling exactly. I mean, I don't 124 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: know how far along she was, but I know they 125 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: were kind of trying to figure out there that at 126 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: that point, their small little Brooklyn apartment and um, who 127 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: would sleep were kind of thing. But as we all know, 128 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: that grief was just carried along into the new house. 129 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: I always think about that and how much I knew 130 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: about that or didn't know, you know, and then to 131 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: have our puppy die so quickly, that's really interesting. So 132 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: you're saying you were in your thirties before you ever 133 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: knew that. I suppose miscarriages are often things that parents 134 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: don't talk about. Do you feel like it was um 135 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: somehow there in some way, shape or form, despite not 136 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: being talked about the way I think probably most things 137 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: that aren't talked about are yes, absolutely, And you know, 138 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: my family does tend in that direction completely, you know, 139 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: to just try to keep a stiff upper lip and 140 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, carry on. So, you know, even the death 141 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: of Agatha one was so striking to me because that 142 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: was the little puppy who had par vot and it 143 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: was the first time I remember seeing my mom cry, 144 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: and one of the only times I feel like in 145 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: my life I've seen her cry. She came around the 146 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: corner to tell me that our puppy had died, and 147 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: my reaction to her crying was to laugh, and I 148 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: just I started laughing hysterically and like within a snap, 149 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: started sobbing because I realized what the reality was, but 150 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: the emotion there was so uncomfortable to me. Um, you know, 151 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: I think all those emotions that aren't shared are really 152 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: are really difficult and mirror everywhere. I mean, they kind 153 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: of just find places to sneak in Agatha two, let's 154 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: just call her Agatha from here on In is a 155 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: container for Chloe's secrets. Into this wee dog, Chloe pours 156 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: her whole self. She shares with her everything, as she 157 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: writes Squibbled inside the bright red cabin of her heart. 158 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: I would always just find her. I mean, my room 159 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: was a really special place to me. It felt like 160 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: a completely safe place that I made my own. But 161 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 1: almost even more than that was Agatha. So wherever she was, 162 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: I felt alive and I felt safe, and I felt 163 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: just adored and adoring. So we would have little event 164 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: just even in the house. You know, I would, I 165 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 1: mean the way I still do. Honestly. I lie kind 166 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: of nose to nose with her. I would kind of 167 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: breathe in her breath, and I just felt like I 168 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: felt more known by her, which is kind of a 169 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: strange thing to say, I guess, But she just was 170 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: calm and quiet and funny and just accepted me. However 171 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: I was I think, you know, in the bigger world 172 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: I grew up in, I felt a little bit more 173 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: like I was supposed to be the good girl all 174 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: the time, and I was supposed to, you know, look 175 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: presentable and hold myself together. And of course I didn't 176 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: always feel that way, but I don't remember feeling in 177 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: a way that I couldn't do that, except when I 178 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: would cry in front of Agatha. So she was my 179 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: little witness. My parents put on these incredible dinner parties 180 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: and just beautiful surroundings, beautiful people, and I was kind 181 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: of expected to show up and be present, and they've 182 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: always been much more social um and out in the 183 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: world in those beautiful ways, and where I've wanted to 184 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: kind of prolonge with the piano with my dog quite happily. 185 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: So you know, I found my favorite people. I made 186 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: it work, but it just was never I don't know, 187 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: it never felt natural to me, and I think partly 188 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: it was because I didn't feel seen or known in 189 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: those spaces. I felt a bit more like I was performing. 190 00:12:52,440 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. This need to show up to 191 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: perform leaves Chloe feeling anxious. She has recurring fears and 192 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: an active imagination that tends to run away with itself. 193 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 1: She retreats into her room more and more, but her 194 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: fears find her there too. My room was kind of 195 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: my safe place, and I felt very known there, and 196 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: I felt like when I would get into my bed 197 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: at night, even when I did have this habit of 198 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: seeing sharks went through my room. I guess I was 199 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: always on my bed with me, so that made me 200 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: feel Okay, I can't describe them any better than they 201 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: are in my mind, but I saw these big sharks, 202 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 1: and I was terrified of sharks, and they would come 203 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: through my room. I was scared of wolves coming into 204 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: our Brooklyn apartment, and I guess I lived with this 205 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: controlled response, like I wanted to control all of that 206 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: as much as I could, um the same way I 207 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: wanted to control the world around me. I mean, making 208 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: someone upset or disappointed or like, whether it was a 209 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: friend or my parents or whoever, there could be nothing worse. 210 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: So I was. I was also just a constant peacemaker, 211 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: but at the great expense of I think who I 212 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: felt like I really was often and I think in 213 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: the world of dogs, you know, that's not that's not 214 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: a known thing, so it felt more comfortable. Did you 215 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: ever tell anyone at that time about the sharks and 216 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: the wolves? My parents knew that I was scared. I 217 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: was scared of the dark, so as long as I 218 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: was in my bed, I was okay. You know. I 219 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: didn't know how to communicate it in a helpful way, um, 220 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: and they didn't probably know how to hear it in 221 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: a helpful way. I think they loved me. They were loving, 222 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: but it was also just a very uncomfortable situation to 223 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: have come up for them, you know, to know how 224 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: to handle it, to be someone who's not okay. They 225 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: are both very loving people, but I think they've sort 226 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: of done the best job they could do with how 227 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: they were parented as well. You know, emotional honesty was 228 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: not a huge theme in their households either. As Chloe 229 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: continues to see sharks and wolves around her, she develops 230 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: obsessive behaviors as a way to exert control over the 231 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: otherwise uncontrollable world. She begins to bite her fingernails. She 232 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: begins to walk differently, like a horse galloping. She begins 233 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: to rip strands of hair from her head and tie 234 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: them to door knobs of the places she and her 235 00:15:55,320 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: family visit a way of whispering. Chloe was here. Thinking 236 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: back over that behavior, I almost see it as kind 237 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: of letting the world know I was there, you know, 238 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: because I often the most present feeling for me has 239 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: been wanting to disappear, to want to just not be seen, 240 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: even though that was probably what I most wanted, because 241 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: that's what I wasn't feeling was really known or seen, 242 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, being visible. I was visible but not known. 243 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: So one of the things you write is these feelings 244 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: I was trying not to feel. We're starting to take 245 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: a toll. Yes, I think so often I was hiding, 246 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: not wanting to be found or not thinking I should 247 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: be found. But it does feel like there was a 248 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: message that I was kind of born into, of not 249 00:16:53,600 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: not actually being known for who I am specifically. But 250 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: Chloe doesn't always know who she is specifically either. She 251 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: grows increasingly confused about where and if she belongs. In 252 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: addition to hiding her feelings, she starts to physically hide 253 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: herself too. Under the piano at her parents parties was 254 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: Agatha at her side. She starts to dissociate, to just 255 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: kind of float away, even when she has her first kiss, 256 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: she's not exactly there. For Thomas a very nice kid, 257 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: but I didn't want to kiss them, and so, you know, 258 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: I agreed to because I thought that's what I should do. 259 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, I just went off and I found his 260 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: dog in the other room and kind of just said, 261 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: all right, I get this done and went off somewhere. 262 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: So I do think that it was it was mainly 263 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: a feeling of not wanting to be where I was 264 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: and to be who I was Whenever there was a 265 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: big emotion, and it could be a really wonderful emotion 266 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: or it could be a really terrifying emotion. Both were 267 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: uncomfortable for me. I would kind of float off into 268 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: some other world, you know that I had. It could 269 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: be with my dog, and it could be walking like 270 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: a horse, which it was also a little bit obsessive, 271 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: but it could be just really becoming a horse. A 272 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: couple of years later, Chloe and her classmates are watching 273 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: the Space Shuttle Challenger launch, and with so many others 274 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: around the world, they witness its devastating explosion. This haunts Chloe. 275 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: It's an awful thing to witness, proof that life is 276 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: terrifying and tragedy is everywhere, and it's real, reaching far 277 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: beyond the sharks and wolves in her bedroom. But even 278 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: though so much of the world is grieving and scared, 279 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: Chloe still hesitates to feel her deep feelings. The world 280 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: she's going up in doesn't seem to tolerate such a 281 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: depth of emotion. I did feel deeply, and I found 282 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: outlets for those feelings in certain ways, and then when 283 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't able to share them because they didn't feel accepted, 284 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: I do feel like they bottled up, and you know, 285 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: sometimes it would just they just happened, you know. The 286 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: Challenger was a big one for me and my mom. 287 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: She was it was almost like she didn't quite know 288 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: what to do. So she told me to write to 289 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan and I did and I got a letter 290 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: back from him, which was exciting, just to get a 291 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: letter from the president. But she could have had these ways, 292 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: and my parents had ways of orienting me a little bit. 293 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: When I think they didn't quite know what to do, 294 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: I think crying, you know, crying. It was a thing 295 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: in my childhood where it was very distressing to my 296 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: parents when I would cry, so I tried not to. 297 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: I think, don't cry was kind of a refrain in 298 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: my house. How would they respond if if you started 299 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: to cheer up about something, my mom would ask, you know, 300 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: why are you crying? Don't cry? You know, that would 301 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: be kind of a response, which she and I've talked 302 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: about as as I've been an adult, and you know, 303 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: she's always saying how she didn't want me to feel 304 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: the pain. But I was also trying to say it. 305 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: But that's real, and I think the refrain was similar 306 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: in her house. It wasn't emotionally open, like crying is 307 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: fine or saying I love you, you know. I Mike 308 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: er Biglia, who is one of my favorite comedians, He 309 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: always talked about how his parents say I love you 310 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: by saying take care, and I just think that's the 311 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: funniest thing ever. You know, that's not the similar in 312 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: my house. I know I'm loved, but it also means 313 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: something to say certain words and also just be seen 314 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: for who you are and for what your emotions are 315 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: at any moment. Crying is a release, and if we're 316 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: told not to cry, all that sadness has no place 317 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: to go. It's a little like keeping a secret. Keeping 318 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: a secret doesn't mean it vanishes. It just means it 319 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: gets stored somewhere not very comfortable, and one way or 320 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: another it finds expression, usually in a distorted, toxic way. 321 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: It's the same with Chloe's pent up tears. They just 322 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: have to go somewhere else, somewhere hidden. I think the 323 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: three of us, my parents, and I have spent multiple 324 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: occasions all being terribly sad or stressed out, and the 325 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: main work that's happening is to not cry. We'll be 326 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: back in a moment with more family secrets. When Chloe's 327 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: in the eighth grade, she's walking home from school one 328 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: afternoon and that feeling of wanting to disappear overtakes her. 329 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: There's a group of boys trailing behind. Some are her friends, 330 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: but she'd rather just keep moving, not say hello. But 331 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: then one boy catches up to her and gropes her. 332 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: This is horrifying enough, but the other boys in her 333 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: group her friends, just stand there and laugh. They don't 334 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: help her. A herd mentality kicks in and for a 335 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: few painfully long minutes, it's Chloe versus them. Chloe eventually 336 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: gets herself out of the herd and heads home to safety. 337 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: She does not tell her parents or even her closest friend. 338 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: Just like the trying, I held it somewhere in my body, 339 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: but I didn't feel it. I was already pretty scared 340 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: of the kid who actually growed me, and I just 341 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: kept a distance from him and the sad necessor the 342 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: tears or you know, any emotions. I kind of shoved 343 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: it somewhere, and my parents didn't know about that until 344 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: I wrote an essay about it, maybe seven years ago. 345 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: Six years ago. It's an interesting sort of statement about 346 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: communication with them. Definitely. Yeah. The following year, when Chloe 347 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: is a freshman in high school, she meets Josh, who's 348 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: a senior. They start dating and they stay together when 349 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: he goes off to college at Princeton, which is not 350 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: too far. They fall in love. He really sees Chloe 351 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: and knows Chloe something she's not used to. So I 352 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: definitely allowed him access to myself. You know. I think 353 00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: we experienced so many first together, and I really really 354 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: loved his mother and his father and his family in general. 355 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 1: I think that household offered me a place of greater 356 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: emotional support. And just you know, they would yell at 357 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: each other, they would It was just really something I 358 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: had not quite seen before because I thought you had 359 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: one argument, well, there goes that relationship. So was there 360 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: this sense of almost break ability in the house that 361 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: you grew up in, Like there was a need to 362 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: be careful with each other, like somehow like the messiness 363 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: of life, the flaws, the messy feelings were threatening or dangerous. 364 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: Definitely in my house, my parents when they had to 365 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: have some intense conversation or if emotions ran high, they 366 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: would usually close themselves behind the door or you know, 367 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: and I understand as the parents, there are times and 368 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: that's appropriate, but there were also just things that involved 369 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: me and in Josh's family, when you would be there, 370 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: what was the contrast? What was that like? They overwhelmed me? 371 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: To be honest, um, at first, I mean they were. 372 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 1: They were only nice to me, but they were overwhelming. 373 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: All their emotions seemed on the surface, so if someone 374 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: was in a bad mood or if someone was really excited, 375 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: it all was right there, whereas you know, with my family, 376 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: it was just a much more guarded situation where you 377 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: could just feel that, or at least I could, and 378 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: it felt terrible, you know, to not know how everyone 379 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: was feeling in the room, and even if it was 380 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: something that you weren't feeling. Can't we talk about that? 381 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: I think I felt so much inside that couldn't be seen, 382 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: and I feel like Dasha's family both saw it um 383 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: but also just made a space for all of that 384 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: to be acceptable. Finally, with Josh's family, Chloe is surrounded 385 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: by people who aren't afraid to own their feelings. Just 386 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: when Chloe thinks she might be able to sustain this, 387 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: to own her feelings, Josh's mom becomes sick with cancer 388 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: and Agatha is also sick. Chloe starts to dissociate again, 389 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 1: and she does what she's done before. She floats outside herself, numb, unfeeling. 390 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: It really felt like that time in my life that 391 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't show up. I mean, I think, you know, 392 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: Josh and I had this lovely, beautiful relationship and between 393 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: our families as well, But when it came to something 394 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 1: as real as his mother, you know, potentially dying, I 395 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: didn't face it the way I wished I had. I 396 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: kind of left college and abandoned everything behind and broke 397 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: up with him. Yes, yes, that's right. It's like the 398 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: way you describe your parents leaving the first department in Brooklyn, 399 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: you know where all that all that hard stuff happened, 400 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: your mother's miscarriage and easy dying, and just this feeling 401 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: of wanting to get away from all that loss, and 402 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: all of the feeling that would went along with all 403 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: that loss for the possibility of loss. Yeah, Josh's mom 404 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: ultimately does die, so does Agatha. Loss upon loss, sharks, 405 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: and wolves. Chloe weathers these storms, stabilized by her life 406 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: at Williams College. She finds important mentors and begins to 407 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: reinvent and discover herself there. She graduates and moves back 408 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: to New York City. For the first time in her life. 409 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: She is dogless. She does, however, have two cats, good company, 410 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: but not quite the same. The sensation of floating stays 411 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: with her throughout her twenties. She tries to write to 412 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: build a life. Her parents are still living in Brooklyn, 413 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: so they meet up occasionally, but often Chloe doesn't want to. 414 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: They feel disappointed, she feels guilty, and this dance goes 415 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: on for some years. She has a boyfriend and a breakup. 416 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: She floats, But when Chloe is thirty two, her friend 417 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: Sid convinces her to meet a guy named Matt. Matt 418 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: has a dog, a dog named Booker. There was really 419 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: him an instant love I think for all three of us. 420 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: He was standing by a big boulder near a trail 421 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: in Brantford, Connecticut, and Sid drove me and her dog 422 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: j J out to meet them, and we went for 423 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: this beautiful hike through the woods and we just kept 424 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: looking over said at each other and all talking the 425 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: whole time. And Booker, a fairly large dog, was a 426 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: big leaner, so he would he would just press his 427 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: body up against your legs. Matt set up the time 428 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: you're part of the pack, and uh, we started emailing, 429 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: and I think it was two weeks later we started 430 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: going back and forth from Brooklyn to Connecticut. We I 431 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: don't think spent a weekend apart for like a year 432 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: and a half. And then I moved in with them, 433 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: and Booker became an incredibly important dog to you. He 434 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: really did. Yeah, yeah, I mean it really was, apart 435 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: from what an exceptional dog he was. And I it's 436 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: it's interesting to think of him kind of based on 437 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: his death, but I have to say it really was. 438 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: I feel like taking care of him all those years 439 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: as his kind of you know, home dog parents, and 440 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: then really planning his whole death. I think I put 441 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: almost every loss I've ever felt into that. Um, you know, 442 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: I think I was finally ready to be so present. 443 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: I mean, my I lost my really beloved grandfather who 444 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: I called Seaweed before that, but I it was too 445 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: hard for me to even I went to his memorial service, 446 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: but it was actually quite hard for me to even 447 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: go visit him in the last year of his life. 448 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: He just had all these symptoms and was getting a 449 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: little paranoid, and it really, I don't know, I couldn't. 450 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: My mom would go religiously, which I really respect, but 451 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: it was it was too hard for me. And I 452 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: think Booker kind of broke something open in me that 453 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,959 Speaker 1: allowed me to just finally feel all those things and 454 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: actually not care who thought, what about whatever where I 455 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: was feeling. And we sobbed and sobbed, you know, and 456 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: buried him and he's in our backyard and it really 457 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen, 458 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: brutal but beautiful. By the time of Booker's brutal, beautiful burial, 459 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: Matt and Chloe have started their own family. They have 460 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: a son, a daughter, and another dog, Safari. So as 461 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: heartbreaking as Booker's death is Chloe is far from alone. 462 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: The heartbreak is shared and collective, as is the healing. 463 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: Even as a parent and having to deal. You know, 464 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: it actually gave me, given my background, it gave me 465 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: some pretty tremendous anxiety two shepherd my own kids through 466 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: big emotions, because I feel like another big challenge I 467 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: came up against was when I had not one kid, 468 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: but two kids and had to mother siblings and all 469 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: their real, very very surface emotions, and it was more 470 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: than I could manage. At times, I just thought, this 471 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: is when you don't ever talk to each other again. 472 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: But that wasn't true. They would, you know, they could 473 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: be mad at each other, but just like friends that 474 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: I had as a kid who had siblings, they just 475 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: kind of learned from each other too. But I had 476 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: to kind of shepherd them through this loss, this tremendous 477 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: loss um. And my daughter was only two and my 478 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: son was five, and they had completely different responses. Ray 479 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: who's too. She she kind of said how sad it was, 480 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: but she didn't know how to, you know, she wasn't 481 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: gonna cry necessarily about that. But this giant dog, I mean, 482 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: he was huge and he occupied a lot of her 483 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: life was gone. So we painted rocks and took them 484 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: down to his grave, and Jackson, my son, who was five, 485 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, he just kind of he said, oh, I'm fine, 486 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sad, And then that night just 487 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: had a huge, huge melt down and finally let me 488 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: hug him till he sobbed and sobbed, and it was 489 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: so relieving to me. It was so relieving to me 490 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: to have him be able to do that well. And 491 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: he was able to do that because you made the 492 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: space for it. Yeah, And I think that's what it 493 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: felt like for me too. After Booker's death, Chloe is 494 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: in therapy and finds that now, unlike her child's self, 495 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: she cannot stop crying. Her floodgates have opened, and her 496 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: secretive way of processing the world, her silence, is no 497 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: longer possible. She writes, I was still in the process 498 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: of breaking down, of breaking systems down, systems that had 499 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: formed me, Systems I had relied on since before I 500 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: knew the word system. Systems that might have helped in childhood, 501 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: but we're failing me as an adult. So when I 502 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: was a child and I relied on dogs so heavily, 503 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: I think that was my coping mechanism for a lot 504 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: of difficult situations, just being under the piano with Agatha. 505 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: When I met Booker, you know, honestly just lying with him, 506 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: walking him, getting to know him, and then wanting this 507 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: other dogs safari in our life. But as I I 508 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: got I had been married to Matt and then had 509 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: my kids, I was also starting to realize, even though 510 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: there are parts of me that probably will always be 511 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: a little bit more solitary, and maybe that's just my nature. 512 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: I also, like I used the phrase being the dog 513 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: a lot in the book, being the dog started to 514 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: become something that felt avoid in my family life, my 515 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: own family life, so with my kids and my husband. 516 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: So I think that's where it just suddenly felt like 517 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: in therapy talking about it, processing all of my childhood 518 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: and then coming to this place where I could actually 519 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: make limitations. You know, I could say no, I could 520 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 1: say what I felt and it would be okay, whether 521 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: I was with a dog or a human, or it 522 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: would just become a conversation you know that had to 523 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: be worked out, whether with my husband or my kids. 524 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: I just could let go a little bit more of 525 00:35:54,480 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: that constant need to perfect something, or just be so 526 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: reliable to control everything, you know. I feel like I 527 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: was able to start being able to be the human 528 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: but still loved docs. Chloe also finds therapy in being 529 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: physically active. She enrolls in a class called Tough that's 530 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: t u f F Girl Fitness, Tough Girl Fitness. She 531 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: feels at home the instant she walks through the doors. 532 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: This class is fun and well tough, but that's not all. 533 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: It's the antidote to floating away. To use the words 534 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: strong to describe myself in any way I wouldn't have 535 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: felt appropriate before I started going there. And yes, I 536 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: became more physically strong, but I have to say it 537 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: led into a greater understanding and appreciation for just choices 538 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: I've made. And you know, like we all of us 539 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: getting through our childhoods, it can be a lot to 540 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: then become a full grown person, you know, whether that's 541 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: someone who sort of follows the path that you were, 542 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: the way you were raised, or if you choose something 543 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: completely different. And I think I've always felt a little different, 544 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: not just a little, I think a lot different. And 545 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: I think that place allowed me to lift a really 546 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: heavy kettle bell and scream and sweat and have people 547 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: cheer for me. I mean, I I've never done that before, 548 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: and it really did kind of lend such a huge 549 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: helping hand to the to the rest of my growth. 550 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: I have to say, just emotionally, yeah, I love that. Yeah, 551 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: to be seen, to be seen, and you know, I 552 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: just I just had this image of you lifting a 553 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: kettle ball and screaming, and you know, imagining anything like 554 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: that remotely happening in the in the home of your childhood. Oh, 555 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: I'd never screamed. I'd never screamed before. This wonderful woman 556 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: who goes there. She's a photographer, and she did these 557 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: photography sessions where she would photograph whatever you wanted, you know, 558 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,919 Speaker 1: at the gym, and I was like, yeah, I'm doing that. 559 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: And so during ours we were talking and I was 560 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: starting to talk about my family and my emotional history 561 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: and all that, and she she just looked right at me, 562 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: like after five minutes and said, have you ever screamed before? 563 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: And I said no, I would never scream And she said, 564 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,720 Speaker 1: do you want to? And so she took this picture 565 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: of me screaming at the top of my lungs and 566 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: she said, I'll do it with you, and so she 567 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: took a picture as she screamed at the top of 568 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: her lungs, and we both started sobbing. It was really 569 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: really beautiful. Yeah. Family Secrets is a production of I 570 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Molly Zachor is the story editor and Dylan 571 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: Fagan is the executive producer. If you have a family 572 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: secret you'd like to share, please leave us a voicemail 573 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,839 Speaker 1: and your story could appear on an upcoming episode. Our 574 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,359 Speaker 1: number is one eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. 575 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: You can also find me on Instagram at Danny writer. 576 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,720 Speaker 1: And if you'd like to know more about the story 577 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: that inspired this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance. For 578 00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 1: more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 579 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: Read Adeo app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 580 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.