1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from how Stop 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristin and Kristin. To start off today's podcast, 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: I have a joke. It's not really a joke, but 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to set it up like a joke. Okay, ready, um, So, 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: a blonde and a brunette walk into an Indian restaurant 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: for lunch, and the blonde says to the brunette, you know, 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: I'm really teaching my daughter that it's bad to curse. 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: And the brunette says, why that's I mean, that's good, 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: but why And she's like, The blonde says to the brunette, Well, 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's just not lady like. You know, she's 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: not a true lady if she curses, it's not a 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: ladylike thing to do. The brunette tells the blonde, Oh, 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: I totally agree. I have two boys, and I think 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: it's way more acceptable for them to curse, especially like 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: on the football field. I mean, that's totally fine. Okay. 17 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: So what I've just told you is an actual true 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: story that I overheard at an Indian restaurant at lunch 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: one day where two women were discussing the upside and 20 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: downside of children cursing according to their gender. Yeah, my 21 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: next question was going to be, and so what did 22 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: the redhead you say to the blonde and brunette? Because 23 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: I've heard similar things like that in terms of talking 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: about little girls and being lady like and the lady 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: like behavior. And I'm pretty sure that I was also 26 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: told as a girl to watch my language because ladies 27 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: don't talk in X y Z kinds of ways. So 28 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: how did you react? I shoved some non into my 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: face and I just kept eating my curry. I was 30 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: not going to intervene in this situation, like tap tap tap, 31 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: excuse me, what do you mean by a true lady? 32 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: And so instead you decided, hey, this is a great 33 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: podcast topic, which it is because swearing, cursing, profanity, whatever 34 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: you want to call it, has so many gendered elements 35 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: to it. It's so fascinating once you start to unravel 36 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: that ball of yarn it is. And the more that 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: Kristen and I read about this topic, the more I 38 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: found myself kind of looking inwardly because I tend to 39 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: have a sailor's mouth. I curse all the time, I 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: think the F word is like one of the most 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: satisfying words to say. The m F word is my 42 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: my go to curse word at work because I managed 43 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: to stop myself after the first two syllables, therefore not 44 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: actually cursing. UM, so that that's a good route to take. 45 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: But um, Yeah, it was kind of interesting. I felt 46 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: like there was a little bit of a mirror being 47 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: held up at me when I was reading this stuff, 48 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: because everything we read is like, you know, cursing say 49 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: masculine linguistic attribute, and women who do it are viewed 50 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: kind of negatively. Yeah, and not only that there's the 51 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: masculine element, but there's also this power element of cursing 52 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: that we'll get into as well. And that's what really 53 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: struck a chord with me in thinking about my own 54 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: cursing behavior because Caroline, like you, I don't have to 55 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: tell you that I have a salty mouth as well 56 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: and have a penchant for the F word because there 57 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: is something particularly satisfying about saying it and sometimes no substitute, 58 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: no euphemism, will do. For reasons that we'll get into. 59 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 1: Um and don't worry, this is gonna be a clean podcast, 60 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: so for listeners out there. I think this will be 61 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: for men and women alike something to think about while 62 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: about your own cursing behavior too as you're listening to this. 63 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: But first, a little bit of history in terms of 64 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 1: how long we have been swearing. Answer basically forever. Yeah, 65 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there were cavemen who grunted, you know, 66 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: when they stubbed their toes things like that. But if 67 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: you look at the etymology of the word curse, like 68 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: to say a bad word, to swear profanely, that comes 69 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: from the early thirteenth century. And something that I didn't 70 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: realize about the origin of even talking about saying bad words, uh, 71 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: is that to curse or to swear to you swear words. 72 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: Swearing was a huge deal back in the day. Yeah. 73 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: We're looking at a Brief History of swearing, which is 74 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: a book by Melissa More and she divides swearing into 75 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: what she calls two spheres of the unstayable. And the 76 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: first one that really came around were religious swears, and 77 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: this is especially taking God's name in vain. Uh. And 78 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: then you have the sexual or excremental types of swearing, 79 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: such as the S word. Right, And she says that 80 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: these two types are kind of at the root of 81 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: all of the bad words that we say today. Okay, 82 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: but going back to the religious, the holy, the swearing 83 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: that actually goes way back in text records to ancient Latin, 84 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: and blasphemy against deities predates cursing in reference to sexual 85 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: or scatological behaviors, because religion was the central part of 86 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: our lives, right, So saying something like sounds, which would 87 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: be short for God's wounds or by God's bones, would 88 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: have been horrendously profane. Yeah, sounds sounds like something that 89 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: Scooby Doo would say, right. Yeah, today we wouldn't think 90 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: of it because think of how common it is to 91 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: just say, oh my God. Right, that even would have 92 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: been bad to say, right. And I mean, I was 93 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: telling Kristen that I did get a bit of an 94 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 1: education reading about this, because you know, I was raised 95 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: that saying oh my God was so bad that you 96 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 1: did not say that in the house and you didn't 97 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: say in front of my dad. Um, But I didn't 98 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: understand that. You know, things like when you talk about 99 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: the Covenant, you know, when you talk about God's promises 100 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: or swearing to God or making an oath, that that 101 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 1: is so serious, and that when you take God's name 102 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: in vain, you are essentially promising something false. You're kind 103 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: of bringing God or whatever deity into your lie essentially. Yeah, 104 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: and more describes why the whole emergence of it being 105 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: bad to take God's name in vain, to make those 106 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: blasphemous slurs, was important, especially for building the foundations of Christianity. 107 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: She writes, in the Old Testament, God is fighting a 108 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: war for supremacy with other near Eastern gods, and he 109 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: wields oath swearing as one of his most powerful weapons. 110 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: And right there from the get go, we have that 111 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: we're powerful coming up. Because in a way, this is 112 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: one way in which you could say that, you know, 113 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: religion is setting out a rule, a social rule, saying hey, 114 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: don't don't do this people kind of you need to 115 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: abide by these religious rules, respect your God, and he 116 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: won't smite you. I know I've I can't believe I've 117 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: avoided being smoked, being smoked the whole time. Well, So 118 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: as we move forward though, into the eighteenth century, and 119 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: we move away from maybe taking God's name in vain 120 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: or or religious swearing being the worst possible thing you 121 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: can do we get the rise of kind of body 122 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: consciousness and hating our bodies and hating our bodily functions, 123 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: and being scared of everything that comes out of our bodies. 124 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: And so we get this rise in kind of body shyness, 125 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: but also the use of euphemisms. Yeah, and so by 126 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: the end of the nineteenth century, More says that swearing 127 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: began to indicate not only those religious oaths but also 128 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: those obscenities. Um. But also by this time too, well, 129 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: by this time we have a lot of gender specificity 130 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: with swearing behavior because earlier injuries before in fact, it 131 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: was had been established that women, especially who were considered 132 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: the more who were considered the purer sex, the morally upright, uh, 133 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, kind of counterparts to men. We're certainly not 134 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: supposed to use these words, right. In fifteen twenty three, 135 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: a piece titled on the Instruction of a Christian Woman 136 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: includes observations about what is appropriate language for women to use. 137 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: So already, I mean, that's coming from somewheres that didn't 138 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: originate eighty three, So obviously it's already being laid out 139 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: formally that women are supposed to talk a certain way 140 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: and not tread into bad, scary territory and from fifteen 141 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: twenty three all the way up to an Indian restaurant 142 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: in two thousand and fourteen, right, And I mean, you 143 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: know that conversation that I overheard you out, It was 144 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: like girls shouldn't curse, and you certainly should not curse 145 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: in front of girls, but boys or should be allowed 146 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: to do whatever they want. It's way more acceptable to 147 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: curse in front of them. And and I heard, you know, 148 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: in that conversation the brunette telling the blonde basically that 149 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, well, it's just a fact of life. You know, 150 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: a boy will curse on the football field or curse 151 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: in the halls of school. Um, but if a girl doesn't, 152 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: she will be looked down upon, people will think she's trashy. Well, 153 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, there might be some validity to that point, 154 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: although that's not to say that that's necessarily a good 155 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: thing or a thing that we should simply condone and say, Okay, well, yeah, 156 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: the girls just just don't do that, But guys, go 157 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: ahead and do what you want to do. But first 158 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: we we got to figure out why we do this 159 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: in the first place. Because there's a linguistic theory that 160 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: humans very first words were swear words because of their 161 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: emotional nature. It's interesting that there is such a gender 162 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: divide in cursing behavior because it's such an inherently human 163 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: thing to do. It's like in our DNA almost Yeah 164 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: and More talks about She gives some examples of of individuals, 165 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: well known individuals who you know have experienced whether you know, 166 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: dementia or or you know, general speech loss for whatever reason, 167 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: who still are cursing because it's it seems to be 168 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: kind of deeply ingrained in some part of our brain 169 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: that maybe when the rest of our brain has been 170 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: affected by some disease or some injury, we can reach 171 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: down into those pits of the brain and still managed 172 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: to throw out a well placed for a letter word. 173 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: And that's because swear words are actually produced in different 174 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: parts of the brain compared to regular speech. Because what 175 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: you and I are saying right now on the podcast 176 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: Caroline is being processed through the left hemispheres of our brain, 177 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: and it's known as a higher brain function, this language processing. 178 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: But if you and I were to start cursing up 179 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: a storm on this podcast, we would probably be activating 180 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: the limbic system, which is known as a more ancient 181 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: part of the human brain. And this is where expletives 182 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: are stored, right, And it's basically brain circuitry that is 183 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: linked to emotion and is just as Chris and said, 184 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: evolutionarily ancient. And it's buried deep inside the right half 185 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: of our brain. And it makes neurological sense that that's 186 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: where swear words originate from, because that's also the part 187 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: of the brain that regulates things like fear response, fight 188 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: or flight are autonomous nervous system and for that reason. 189 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker was talking about this to Scientific 190 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: American and he essentially compared human swearing behavior to that 191 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: of cats, saying, quote, I suspect that swear ring taps 192 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: into a defensive reflex in which an animal that is 193 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: suddenly injured or confined erupts in a furious struggle accompanied 194 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: by an angry vocalization to startle and intimidate an attacker. Right, So, 195 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: if you sit on a cat accidentally and the cat 196 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: gets really angry and reaches up and swats it you 197 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: and runs away, like cat just cursed you, Kristen, Yeah, 198 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: just Mr Whiskers, It's set a four letter word at you. 199 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: Because it was like, dude, don't sit on me, I'm here, 200 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: and so yeah, I mean, if you think about it, 201 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: like that makes a lot of sense. When when when 202 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: certain things drive you to curse without thinking about it, 203 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: it's usually because you're scared, you're anxious. All of a 204 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: sudden something startled you or hurt you, and so you 205 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: react by, you know, screaming a bad word. Well, and 206 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: it's also fascinating to look at the physiological effects of 207 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: swearing because our it's a total brain body connection going 208 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,599 Speaker 1: on when we swear as opposed to just casual, clean conversation. 209 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: Because when we swear, for instance, it induces greater skin 210 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: conductance than other words, which indicates emotional arousal, and so 211 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: our heart rate also goes up and it might have 212 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: a pain mitigating effect. Yeah, I love this study. This 213 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: was published a Nerror report back in two thousand nine. 214 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: People who held their hands in icy water, the people 215 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: who swore held their hands in the water for an 216 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: average of forty seconds longer. So there you go. If 217 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: you unleash a string of course words versus just chanting 218 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: something random and neutral, you can withstand pain better. But 219 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: there was one caveat to that study finding, which was 220 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: that with repeated use, that pain threshold actually diminishes, which 221 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: is why you might want to put a limit on 222 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: your swearing, because if you're dropping F bombs all the 223 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: time in a way, it do you sensitie as you 224 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: and probably your audience to the power of that word. Now, 225 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: I yeah, this is exactly right. Uh. You know, researcher 226 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: Caroline did a little bit of studying on this topic, 227 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: and I did. I had a day where, um, not 228 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: what you can to details, but something was really taking 229 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: me off, and I unleashed like a string. I think 230 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: I said more F bombs than I said actual subjects 231 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: and verbs, uh in in my sentence. And uh, you know, 232 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: the other person in the conversation was stunned, rightly so, 233 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: But I don't know, maybe in my string of expletive use, 234 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: maybe I was trying to exercise a degree of power 235 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: over the person across the table from me. More does 236 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: call curse words quote the most powerful words we have 237 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: with which to express extreme emotion, whether negative or positive. Sure, 238 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: that's kind of a no brainer to read, But there's 239 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: also linked to that this old theory that women swear 240 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: as kind of a linguistic power grab. That the only 241 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: reason we would really want to violate those longstanding gender 242 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: norms that we are supposed to speak like good ladies 243 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: and and be clean and euphemistic and no no f bombs. 244 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: The only reason we would do that is to try 245 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: to kind of exert some power flex our muscles. Right, 246 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: And but why is that equated with power? Because I 247 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: mean it's also equated with masculinity, and so women, being 248 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: the repressed, oppressed group of people that we are, maybe 249 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: we're all just cursing up a storm according to this theory, 250 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: to uh to boost our power seat. Yeah, I think 251 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: some of that is being said with sarcasm. I don't know, 252 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: what do you think about that? I don't because I 253 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: remember the first time I really started cursing was in 254 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: high school. There was one girl in my class who 255 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: knew all of the words, and yeah, I know this 256 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: is high school. Hello. I was a little bit of 257 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: a late bloomer. But I started kind of practicing cursing 258 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: under my breath and then I started staying out loud 259 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: and there was that power element to it. But like 260 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: I like, it felt like I felt like I was 261 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: rebelling in a way. Yeah, I think, yes, I would 262 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: agree with you. Personally, I feel like it's less to 263 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: do with I'm a woman and so I need to 264 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: somehow elevate myself up to being equal to men through 265 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: the use of the F bomb, but more so than like, 266 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: I'm just angry and I'm conversationally rebelling and I'm going 267 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: to let you know exactly how angry I am. Yeah, 268 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: I mean, and I don't think that you can discount 269 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: the power element. It just might not be as gendered 270 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: as saying the only recent women are cursing is to 271 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: try to emulate male behavior, because there's also one thing 272 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: that more another linguists point out is the socioeconomic power 273 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: element of it too, where cursing has generally been associated 274 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: with either lower class people more of a blue collar 275 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: type of thing to do, or at the very upper 276 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: echelons of society where they're standing is so secure that 277 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 1: they can swear and not be looked down upon, whereas 278 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: for good middle class folk, you keep it clean. Yeah, 279 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: I mean talking about women being the ones who supposedly 280 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: use euphemism over like an out and out curse word. 281 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: Linguists have found like they looked at one study looked 282 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: at um courtroom transcripts and found that social class, not gender, 283 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: was actually a greater predictor of the use of quote 284 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: unquote woman's language, which sounds horrifically offensive to me, but 285 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: it just means that this is the language that people 286 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: typically associate with women, being like lower on the power scale, 287 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: maybe using euphemism instead of the stronger language, etcetera, etcetera. 288 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: So why don't we dig even deeper into this gender issue? 289 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: Because one thing I was surprised to find in the 290 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: research on cursing, like the more scholarly research on cursing, 291 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: is how you cannot get very far away from gender 292 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: when you start looking for academic research on this um. 293 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: And one paper that we found was by Christie Bears Fagerston, 294 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: and it's called Who's Swearing Now? The Social Aspects of 295 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: Conversational Swearing? And this quote immediately jumped out, which is 296 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: that quote? By far the most thoroughly investigated aspect of 297 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: the socio linguistics of swearing is the correlation between swearing 298 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: and the gender of the interlocutors of social interaction. So, 299 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: in other words, it's swearing behavior and gender are almost 300 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: always inextricably linked. It seems like right. And one researcher, 301 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: one linguistics professor who is constantly cited and all of 302 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: these studies is Robin lake Off, who is a professor 303 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: at the University of California, Berkeley, and she said that 304 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: women cursing had long been considered dangerous because these words 305 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: quote express anger and act as a substitute for physical 306 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 1: expression of anger. So basically, whereas men have the power 307 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: to hit each other in the face at the bar, 308 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: women are just gonna throw some nasty words at you instead. Yeah, 309 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: this also does remind me of some of the research 310 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: that we found in our episode a while back on 311 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: women and anger, where it's not that we are less 312 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: angry than men, but we don't express it as outwardly 313 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 1: sometimes as men do. And then this also reminded me 314 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: too of growing up. My dad is a big guy, 315 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: and he's he has a loud and booming voice, and 316 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: he didn't curse all that much, but it was like, 317 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: if he was angry, you could hear it, whereas my 318 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: mom verbally expressive, though she is um, you knew things 319 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: were bad if you heard her curse. Even today, I mean, 320 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: we have like a very like close adult relationship, and 321 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: I can say whatever I want for the most part 322 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: around her, but even still, I mean, she'll like drop 323 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: her voice and say a curse word, and then it's 324 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: like that's when, you know, just immediately everyone starts crying. Yeah, 325 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: because that's like I mean, if if she is pushed 326 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: to the point of cursing, then she is angry. Yeah, 327 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: it's kind of My mom doesn't curse much. She Actually 328 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 1: I think my mom is kind of entertained when I curse, 329 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: and so she kind of curses along with me, and 330 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: it's like a girlfriend activity. But yeah, my dad is 331 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: kind of the same way, Like he never gets loud, 332 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: he never yells, but he will lower his voice to 333 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: a growl. And if he says just like a soft 334 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: so quote unquote soft for letter word, you're like, it's 335 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: all over. It's all over, the apocalypse, everything's crumbling. Oh 336 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: my god, run for the hills. And it's because though 337 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: of that longstanding notion of women having women and your 338 00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: dad cleaner speech, that they're often described as the guardians 339 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: of language and propriety, the experts of euphemism. But there's 340 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: this interesting shift that happens starting in the nineteen seventies 341 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: and eighties where you see this correlation between the women's 342 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: lib movement and second wave feminism picking up steam and 343 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: women cursing more so, I mean, I can obviously see 344 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: where stemming from those studies that you would link power 345 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: grabs by women and cursing and cursing being a masculine 346 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: thing and women trying to ever take men blah blah 347 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, all that whole narratives, right, I mean, 348 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: and again, like it studies like that, there's always the 349 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: thing of hey, correlation versus causation, Keep that in mind, 350 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: but it was nevertheless interesting to see these studies coming 351 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: out in the mid seventies looking specifically at that um 352 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: But one thing, though, when we're talking about men and 353 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: women in mixed company and cursing behavior, men will curse 354 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: less around women, right, because there's that natural assumption that 355 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: like almost ingrained assumption that women don't curse. Women have 356 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: a lower what's it called, like offensiveness threshold or obscenity threshold, 357 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: and so they they're they're fragile brains just can't handle it. Well, 358 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: that's the outside assumption. Whereas women really in self reports 359 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: aren't necessarily as definitives. We tend to think they would be, 360 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: and when women are around men, we tend to curse more. 361 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: It's like we're trying to meet in the middle in 362 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: terms of our gendered swearing behavior. But when you think 363 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 1: too about swear words, swear words to me is such 364 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: a hokey phrase. But what do you think about the 365 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: list of swear words that we have and the ones 366 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: that you hear so often? Uh. Faggerson writes that the 367 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: implication of swearing as a male domain can also be 368 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: found in the language of swearing itself, which includes an 369 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: abundance of terms for females and their body parts. Right. Yeah, 370 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: I thought this was interesting to an interesting link between 371 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: cursing and gender, that there's so many naughty quote unquote 372 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: things that you can call women in their body parts, 373 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: but maybe not as many about men and theirs. Yeah, 374 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: because even the swear words that might be more commonly 375 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: directed to men are typically just insulting them in female terms, 376 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: calling them things related to women. Right makes sense since 377 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: we can't curse on this podcast, right, and we do 378 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: as men and women tend to insult each other and 379 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: react to insults differently. Um. This was coming from Timothy 380 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: Jay's Cursing in America, a psycholinguistic study of dirty language 381 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: in the courts. He talks about sexual looseness or not 382 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: being loose enough, being the crux of the strongest female insults. 383 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: Are concerns, he writes, tend to surround intimacy, social desirability, 384 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: and security, whereas men's men's concerns tend to surround sex, 385 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: power and physical attractiveness. And so Jay theorizes that the 386 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: curse words that men and women tend to rely on 387 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: more often are filtered through those concerns, as he calls them. 388 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: But the whole sexual looseness or not being loose enough 389 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: thing in terms of like the types of swear words 390 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: or insults that are lobbed more often at women, is 391 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: so frustrating because it's either you are horribly frigid or 392 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: way to promise us, you can never really win in 393 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: terms of that, Yeah, I mean yeah and everything. As 394 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: far as men insulting each other, it seems to be, yeah, 395 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: like you said, you call them something feminine to insult 396 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: them the worst, or you insinuate that they're gay or 397 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: whatever to be to be the most the most insulting. 398 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: And I think that this is interesting because it ties 399 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: back to one of the sources we read talking about. 400 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: I think it was more talking about curse words in 401 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: ancient Rome. And one of the most vulgar swear words 402 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: or curse words in ancient Rome was the word for 403 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: performing oral sex on a woman. That was like the 404 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: most vulgar you could not get any more vulgar. Performing 405 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: oral sex on a man was not even on the 406 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: charts compared to this. It was just because the mouth 407 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: is viewed as this clean and sacred place, and then 408 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: when you talk about performing oral sex on a woman, 409 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: that's like the worst thing. Vagina's vagina's messing at all, 410 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: watch out. And this researcher Karen Stapleton also found that 411 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: men found it more acceptable for men than women to 412 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: use terms referring to female anatomy. So women aren't even 413 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: allowed to refer to our own female anatomy in any 414 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: sort of vulgar terms if we wish. But when you 415 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: go back to looking at how we curse as kids, 416 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, talk about learning how to curse, like, I 417 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: don't even remember really when I learned curse words at all. 418 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: Just sort of appeared in my brain one day, Yeah, 419 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: I I they I just remember kind of absorbing them, 420 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: and then a couple of them being there and like 421 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: testing the grounds and using them, but having no idea 422 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: what I was actually saying. But one thing that my 423 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: surprise parents listening is that at least according to research 424 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: that Timothy J. Has done, mean, he studied cursing for 425 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: like thirty five years. He found that we start we 426 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: as boys and girls start picking up our first swear 427 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: words by the age of two. There's a good chance 428 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: that we know a swear word before we know the 429 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: alphabet right, and we're saying the same amount, whether we're 430 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: little boys or we're little girls. We were familiar with 431 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: the same amount. But by three and four, girls are 432 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,719 Speaker 1: producing more swear words. But after three or four boys 433 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: began to clearly pull ahead. And this is a trend 434 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: that starts as early as five and continues into adulthood. 435 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: But this is a good point to keep in mind 436 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: that this isn't offering evidence that well, men are one way, 437 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,479 Speaker 1: they're just cursing like sailors and ladies are, you know, 438 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: at home knitting lace doilies and whispering euphemisms under their breath, 439 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: But simply that this is a reflection of gender norms 440 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: and expectations, because think about it, at age five, you 441 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: have your kid already talking, you have your gender schema 442 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: already well underway of formation, and you're probably already teaching 443 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: girls to be like little girls and boys to be 444 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: like rough and tumble boys. And you probably have people 445 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: like the ladies you overheard at the Indian restaurant saying, Oh, 446 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: don't say little ladies don't talk like that, right, I mean, 447 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: I mean, how many times have we already, Brenda, how 448 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: many times have we talked in the podcast about having 449 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: your gender identity basically defined for you already at such 450 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: a young age. And so it's not that cursing is 451 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: outside of that. I mean, I think the way you 452 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: speak is very much tied into how you're instructed to 453 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: behave to act, to own that gender. Yeah, I clearly 454 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: remember being talked to. I don't know, I wouldn't call 455 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: it punished necessarily, but my mom caught me or I 456 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: was tattled on. I'm not sure for saying a curse 457 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: word that I had no idea what it really meant, 458 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: and I just thought it was funny. And but I 459 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: don't think she ever told me to not say because 460 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: I was a girl. But at the same time, though 461 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: I had no clue what was going on, she was like, 462 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: I knew I had done something wrong, and she clearly 463 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: was uncomfortable that I had said this F word. But 464 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, you know, she didn't really want 465 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: to explain to me poll helve you you know, the 466 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: Human Anatomy book and go into an in depth lesson. 467 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: But I do think that we need to be I 468 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: don't know, more accepting of the fact that kids pick 469 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: up curse words and not be so terrified of it. Yeah. 470 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I have friends with kids who basically tell 471 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: their kids, these are grown up words. And when you're 472 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: around your your dad and me, you can say them 473 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: at home because you've heard us say them, but you 474 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: can't say them outside of home. So yeah, I mean, 475 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: because there's really, at some point there's going to be 476 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: no controlling that language. Um. But let's next look at 477 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: whether or not this swearing gender gap is closing today, 478 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: because Caroline, you and I have admitted now that we 479 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: off Mike on the podcast, we curse a lot quite 480 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: a bit, and my girlfriend's curse a lot as well, 481 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: and when we are around each other we are certainly 482 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: cursing not all the time, but you know it happens 483 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: a lot. So let's let's figure out whether or not 484 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: this whole antiquated idea of women being the experts of 485 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: euphemism has really gone by the wayside. And we're going 486 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: to do that when we come right back from a 487 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: quick break and now back to the podcast. So we've 488 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: looked at gender and swearing behavior in the past, but 489 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: what about the present. Are we cursing more as women 490 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: in our data day conversation? And also are we cursing 491 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: more in the workplace? I try not to, Hi, I 492 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: try not to as I don't try that hard actually 493 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: either actually to be honest. But anyway, we found this 494 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: study that when I when I first looked at it, 495 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: I thought there's no way this could be relevant or interesting. 496 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: It's called f K. Yeah, I swear cursing in gender 497 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: in my space my space, my space, and I just 498 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: had a little moment of like remembering college the sound 499 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: of a dial tone, a dial up modem, right it was. 500 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: It was very very warm and fuzzy feelings about my space, 501 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: except for when it won't load at all. Um. But anyway, 502 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: researcher Mike Fellwall found no significant gender differences in the 503 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: swearing on my Space for male and female users in 504 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: the UK between the ages of sixteen and nineteen. Yeah. 505 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: And while you might be thinking to yourself, why are 506 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: they quoting a study about my base, Well, this is why, 507 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: because fell Wall concluded that quote this is perhaps the 508 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: first significant evidence of gender equality in strong swearing frequency 509 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: in any informal English language context, because social media has 510 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: presented a new and unique database, essentially for academics looking 511 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: into swearing behavior, because otherwise they had to rely on 512 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: people's self reported swearing behavior or had to essentially creep 513 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: up on conversation like I did, yeah, and and overhear 514 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: people and keep tallies of how much they curse. So 515 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: this is pretty relevant data. But the thing is I 516 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: specified that this was u K teens. This is not 517 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: US teens. They're still was a cursing gender gap on 518 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: my Space for teens in the US. I wonder too, though, 519 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: and I want to hear from listeners in the UK 520 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: about this whether this is any reflection of differences in 521 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: culture in terms of censorship broadcast censorship, because the rules 522 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: in the UK are way less strict about the kinds 523 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: of things that you will see in here on TV 524 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: versus the FCC in the U S which is, you know, 525 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: you still can't say the F word the S word 526 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: UM on broadcast networks. So I wonder if it is 527 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: maybe part of that could be UM. But yeah, I guess. 528 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: And also just maybe it's a reflection of American prudery. 529 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: I that's what I would link. But I mean, but 530 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: it's one and the same. I mean, the FCC being 531 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: is reactionary and you know, heavy handed as they are. 532 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of one and the same. UM. But as 533 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: of two thousand thirteen, moving away from the MySpace era 534 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: now into the age of Facebook, American men still do 535 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: it more Overall, there was a study conducted on Facebook 536 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,719 Speaker 1: linguistics out of the University of Pennsylvania and Cambridge, and 537 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: it found that women use more of what they call 538 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: emotion words like it cited, love you, et cetera, whereas 539 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: men use more swear words and object references, so things 540 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: like I blank love my or not love my Nintendo 541 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: is blanking awesome. And similarly, a study from thirteen by 542 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: to Lunar Quick Surveys found that millennials are the likeliest 543 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: to swear repeatedly throughout the day. I fall squarely into 544 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: that category. But of all age groups, it's still men 545 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: at least, we were into this survey who are cursing 546 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: more in the US. But I think that millennial um 547 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: finding is significant because I do think there is a 548 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: distinct generational difference with our swearing behavior. Yeah, I mean, 549 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,959 Speaker 1: this is common sense to say, but I mean, you know, 550 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: with every successive generation, things get more permissive. Things that 551 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, our grandparents found to be completely obscene, uh, 552 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: you know, aren't so bad anymore, and we hear them 553 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: on television shows. So yeah, I mean the fact that 554 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: there was a New York Times article from a few 555 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: years back, but nevertheless, it was talking about the rise 556 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: of hearing the word douche on TV because it's just 557 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: another like funny but slightly taboo word that you can say. 558 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: And also the B word it's said all the time. 559 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: And that's on broadcast networks as well. Well. It's almost 560 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: like shows like that on those networks find the safe 561 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: curse words that they can say and then just say 562 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: them to death, and so that almost has an effect itself. 563 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: I would think that like, okay, well, you know, this 564 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 1: four letter word isn't nearly as offensive. It's more much more, 565 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: you know, soft and everything. So we can say this 566 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: a hundred times per episode. Well, and one thing that 567 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: might be becoming more publicized through TV shows and what 568 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: we're seeing reflected on screen is the fact that a 569 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: lot of studies have found that when women are talking 570 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: to each other casually, we curse more and we're filthy. Yeah, 571 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: we're totally healthy. And we found a study called get 572 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: this Taboo, Language and Sex in the City. Yes, there 573 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: have been a number of studies actually conducted on sex 574 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: in the City, but it found the most swearing when 575 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,280 Speaker 1: the main characters Carrie, Samantha, Charlotte, and Miranda, we're talking 576 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: to each other. But it was interesting that when they 577 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: were talking to male characters on the show, the amount 578 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: of swearing went down and the euphemism use went up. 579 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: But male characters when they were talking still to the 580 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: to the gal pals, we're cursing more directly. Aren't imitating life? 581 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: Sort of Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm I know 582 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: that I'm like completely disgusting and open with my girlfriends 583 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: when we're having a conversation about whatever, you know, I mean, 584 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: but I not wouldn't necessarily say the same things to 585 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: guy friends exactly. Well, and I think that we're seeing 586 00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: too that girlfriend type of language being reflected in publications 587 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: specifically targeting us as millennial women. I mean, there was 588 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: an entire New York Times trend piece that came out 589 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: in January about the rise of profanity in women's media. 590 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, if you go, if you look on any 591 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: lady blog like Jezebel or The Gloss or the Hairpin, 592 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: you're gonna see cursing even in headlines. Yeah, and you 593 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: have my attitude, but as someone who curses all the time, 594 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: my attitude about that is kind of like, that's a 595 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: little forced. Yeah, I feel like it can be forced. 596 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: I think that you have to keep in mind, especially 597 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: and this is just getting nerdy about writing in literary preference, 598 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: I do think you have to keep in mind the 599 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: power element of cursing and the desensitizing effect that it 600 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: can have, to where it's like, don't you want to 601 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: save powerful words for making powerful statements? Yeah? And then 602 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: it kind of makes me look at what at the 603 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: point they're making overall and being like, what is that? 604 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: Why is that even needed? Right? You're not enhancing it? 605 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: And I mean I'm I am the last person to 606 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: make the claim about well, people who use vulgar terms 607 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: just obviously have a poor vocabulary, because hello, let me 608 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: just read you my resume real quick. I have a 609 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,919 Speaker 1: fine vocabulary, but I understand the power of a well 610 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: placed curse word, even when I do fly off the 611 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 1: handle and use them too much. That being said, I 612 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: think in in the written word, in the world of 613 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: the written word, I think it's okay to pull back 614 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: a little. I don't think we need to unleash the hounds, 615 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: like every time we write a blog about you know, cellulite, right, 616 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: I mean? And I can see how with blogging in particular, 617 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: there is a particularly conversational voice that you're often going for, 618 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: where it's it's almost as though the writer is speaking 619 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: directly to you. And I think there is some shock 620 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: value that some people try to employ. By what I 621 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: what we might think of is overusing curse words. But 622 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: even in more mainstream publications like Cosmopolitan Maggazine Marie Claire, 623 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: you are way likelier to see curse words, not only 624 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: within the pages, but even on the cover. Yeah, they 625 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: might have a well placed asterisk or something, but it's 626 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: still I think they're pursuing. They want to talk to 627 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: their audience the same way that their audience talks to 628 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: one another. Yeah, it was funny though. That New York 629 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 1: Times piece was called fifty Shades of Vulgarity, to which 630 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: some women our age wrote response pieces being like New 631 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: York Times, of course we're cursing. But when you as 632 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: two people who went to journalism school as we did, 633 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: and also reading the responses of editors at these magazines, 634 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: yet it's kind of a big deal that they are 635 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: employing more profanity because you wouldn't do that. They're letting 636 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: their hair down in the New York Times is just 637 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: clutching its pearls. It's right, I haven't New York Times 638 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: reaching for a scrunchee to put that hair back up 639 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: really quickly. Um. But in our day to day conversation too, 640 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: there is still, anecdotally at least this debate over whether, 641 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: if you are at least a straight woman, okay, whether 642 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: or not cursing all the time. It's gonna be a 643 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: turn off for guys. Yeah, there was a lot of debate. 644 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 1: One of the first UH websites I stumbled across when 645 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,280 Speaker 1: I was searching for just you know, gender women cursing 646 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: all that stuff was like this whole message board. I 647 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: don't even know what it was on, but this whole 648 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: message board where men were like, yeah, bro, you know, 649 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: like I'm a like a woman and she's hot and 650 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: then she's like curses all the time, and I'm just like, oh, 651 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: I don't have any respect for you to which, yeah, 652 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think that was an AskMen 653 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: dot com message board, which there you go. Um, But 654 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this, and in my previous dating life, 655 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: I did pay attention to how much the guy curse 656 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: on dates and how comfortable he was if I curse. 657 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 1: And I think honestly that if you are a woman 658 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: concerned about your cursing behavior, kind of like take the power. 659 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 1: Because for me, if a guy flinched when I dropped 660 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: an F bomb, listen, I'm not no, it wasn't a 661 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: deal breaker, but it usually was indicative of maybe the 662 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: fact that we were in a match because I'm not 663 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: gonna have to do I don't want to have to 664 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: watch my language right around you. Now. I I dated 665 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: a guy years ago who was like, wow, you kind 666 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: of curse a lot, and I was like, Okay, alright, sorry, 667 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,720 Speaker 1: a little sensitive guy. Don't mean to insult your ears. 668 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: See you later, Yeah, I mean, and we're not trying to, 669 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 1: you know, blast men for wanting ladylike language. I don't 670 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: think that this is, you know, something that applies to 671 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: all guys, but it is something that still crops up 672 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: in at least heterosexual dating dynamic. Yeah. I mean, it's 673 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: the conversation about gender and and cursing. I mean, it's 674 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: framed in so many conversations, whether it's about dating or 675 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: like about work, which we've we've touched on. I mean, 676 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: like the question is still being asked over and over 677 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: again about like is it okay for women to curse ladies? 678 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:19,919 Speaker 1: We shouldn't curse. We don't want to put man off. 679 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: We don't want to anger our bosses and the men 680 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: in our labs. Yeah, I mean, and and say over 681 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: and over again that this is we're talking about, like 682 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: straight dating dynamics, because I have a feeling that, as 683 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: with other issues like this where it's a lot of 684 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: gender norms and scripts that are coming into play, that 685 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: it might not be as pertinent of an issue refreshingly 686 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: for LGBT dating. And I would love to know if 687 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,240 Speaker 1: it is, And in that case it probably is simply 688 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: a matter of oh, I don't curse a lot, you 689 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: don't curse a lot, cool, you know, like, rather than 690 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: being a thing. Well, but in a more formal setting 691 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: of a workplace, this is where cursing behavior gets a 692 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: little dicier. Yeah. I mean a lot of people, as 693 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: you would expect, argue that cursing in the workplace is bad. 694 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: It's wrong. It makes you appear immature and hot headed. 695 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: Um that it can damage morale, damp and respect um 696 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 1: even coaches. There was a study looking at coaches talking 697 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: to their teams, and they were rated less effective by 698 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: their players if they cursed, particularly if those players were girls. 699 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: There's just all of this talk about how cursing is 700 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: the worst thing you could possibly do, especially if you're 701 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: a lady. Yeah, because the workplace too. If you want 702 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: to put gender and power dynamics under the microscope, just 703 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: walk into the office. Because you know, while there are 704 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: those assumptions that maybe cursing might be bad, they're also 705 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 1: conflicting studies that have found that cursing makes bosses in 706 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: particular more relatable, it builds employee solidarity. Hey, we can 707 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: all blow off steam together by talking about how this 708 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 1: meeting is blanking terrible. You know, it probably was a 709 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,919 Speaker 1: terrible meeting. It probably was, and even some speeches were 710 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: were rated to be more effective when the speaker delivered 711 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,320 Speaker 1: a well placed or well timed curse word. But again, 712 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 1: especially if you are in a leadership position at work, 713 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: your amount of cursing and or the acceptability of your 714 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: cursing is gonna be seen probably through a gendered lens, 715 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,800 Speaker 1: where in, if you're a woman, the penalty for cursing, 716 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: the negative penalty is probably gonna be stronger than if 717 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,759 Speaker 1: you are a male boss. Right, or in the case 718 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: of former Yahoo CEO Carol Bart's, the use your use 719 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: of a curse word could shape how the entire world 720 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: sees you, and in an instant, Yeah, when she was 721 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 1: fired from her position as CEO, she essentially made an 722 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,439 Speaker 1: F bomb laced exit speech, which I remember hearing about 723 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: this on the news and I thought it was kind 724 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: of amazing. I totally think it's amazing. When I was 725 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,720 Speaker 1: revisiting all of that too for this episode, I was like, God, 726 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: I just want to give her such a big high five, 727 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,879 Speaker 1: because yeah, because she was now great, I can understand why. 728 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: Some people say, well, if you're overseeing a company, you 729 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: don't need to publicly be saying all of these horrible words. 730 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think this 731 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: is a terrible comparison. But if it had been like 732 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: Donald Trump or somebody, everybody would have just rolled their 733 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: eyes and been like, there's that old man ranting again. 734 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,439 Speaker 1: But instead it was like, she's a woman and she's 735 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: at the head of a company and she's saying all 736 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: this stuff. Obviously she's a B word. Well, and she's angry. Yeah, scary, Yeah, 737 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,240 Speaker 1: it's that danger element that who was it? The loft 738 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: Key brought up um in terms of how swearing for 739 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:53,879 Speaker 1: women has always been perceived as dangerous because we're being angry, right, 740 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 1: women are not allowed to express that. Men can yell 741 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: and they can throw their fists, but women just have to, 742 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: you know, you cut their eyes over to you and 743 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: roll their eyes. We're not allowed to say anything. You 744 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 1: can throw shade, we just can't say it out loud. 745 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: But I mean, obviously, for any cursing, no matter where 746 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: you are, there's a time and a place, um, And 747 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 1: I think that should be it. I don't think that 748 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 1: it should be determined by virtue of you being a 749 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: man or a woman. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's 750 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: unfair if women are put at a disadvantage for cursing 751 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: over men, But it is what it is, And so 752 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: I guess it's helpful to be aware. Well, it's always 753 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: helpful to be aware of how people perceive you. Yeah. 754 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 1: So with all of this research on gender and power 755 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: and swearing in history and our brains in your brain, Caroline, 756 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,959 Speaker 1: that has this given you any pause at all about 757 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: your own cursing behavior? Um it? Well, I want to 758 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 1: say that I'm going to try to clean up my 759 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,919 Speaker 1: act a little, but it's not going to be for 760 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 1: fear of like scaring someone. I mean, I think it's 761 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: worth it to pull back at work a little, you know, 762 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 1: when we're at work, Um but because I mean, you know, 763 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: you don't really know who's around. You don't know every 764 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,520 Speaker 1: single coworker, and I mean the general you you don't 765 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: know every single coworker exceptionally well to know whether or 766 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: not you're offending that person. But I mean, I just 767 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: still it's like God, when I'm in my car in 768 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: Atlanta traffic and I'm just screaming something, it just feels right. Yeah. Yeah. 769 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: I think the one area where I consistently want to 770 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: do better in terms of not cursing is talking to 771 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: my parents, because by this point I have I really 772 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: enjoy the fact that we have an open, you know, 773 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 1: honest relationship. But when I go over there, maybe I've 774 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: had a rough day. We're having dinner, and I go 775 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: off on a rant, and it feels really good to 776 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: say exactly what I'm thinking. But then later I'm thinking, oh, 777 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:09,240 Speaker 1: they must be horrified by their dear daughter dropping those 778 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 1: heinous phrases. And I will all get into a stretch 779 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: of like getting really stressed out and calling my mother 780 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,799 Speaker 1: and she's like, oh, honey, what's going on? And I 781 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: will just unleash like verbal, angry, curse word laden vomit 782 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,400 Speaker 1: all over her and be like, Okay, well I gotta go. 783 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: I love you back. It's like we just leave them 784 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,400 Speaker 1: with the mess, like, okay, you clean it up. I 785 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 1: feel so much better, thanks, Oh Heaven, love you well. 786 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 1: Now I want to hear though from listeners about this. 787 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: What is your stance on cursing? Do you are you 788 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 1: a woman who curses and and doesn't see any problem 789 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,560 Speaker 1: with it? Guys, you find it a turn off for 790 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,440 Speaker 1: other women to curse. What are your thoughts? Let us 791 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: know them. Mom Stuff discovery dot com is where you 792 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: can send your letters. And by the way, if you 793 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,600 Speaker 1: do use profanity in the subject line, it will get 794 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,200 Speaker 1: spam filtered out, and just keep that in mind you 795 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: might want to keep your letters clean. So mom stuff 796 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: at discovery dot com is where you can email us. 797 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us your thoughts at mom stuff 798 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: podcast or send us a Facebook message, and we have 799 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well, 800 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: I've gotta let her here. From Jessica about our gender 801 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: reveal party episode, She writes, Hey, ladies, I really liked 802 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,120 Speaker 1: your podcasts on gender revealed parties. We had a reveal 803 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: party in July for our baby. We saw it as 804 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,799 Speaker 1: a fun way to announce what we were having, but 805 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,879 Speaker 1: we also had other motives. Throughout my pregnancy, my mom 806 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,319 Speaker 1: and my mother in law have been strangely competitive and 807 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: jealous of one another. The party was a way to 808 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: ensure that everyone found out the sex together in an 809 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,839 Speaker 1: attempt to be fair. The things you hit on were 810 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,440 Speaker 1: definite concerns when planning our party. The invitation said no gifts, 811 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,040 Speaker 1: so no one felt they had to bring us a present. 812 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,759 Speaker 1: I know the difference between sex and gender being a 813 00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: graduate of a liberal women's college. Sex or old party 814 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: just doesn't have the same ring to it. We didn't 815 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,360 Speaker 1: have a cake, but instead we picked out two outfits 816 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 1: and had the store rapid correct one. I'm glad we 817 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,360 Speaker 1: had everyone together because it was a special moment, this 818 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:14,000 Speaker 1: baby being highly anticipated as the first grandchild. That being said, 819 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:15,480 Speaker 1: it did stress me out and make me wonder if 820 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,799 Speaker 1: it was really worth all the trouble. I think it was, 821 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,280 Speaker 1: but probably wouldn't have another party with future pregnancies. Oh 822 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:25,240 Speaker 1: another interesting fact, my nine pound one ounce baby girls 823 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: movements could never be described as a delicate ballet, so 824 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 1: that study completely cracked me up. He's Jessica, I know, 825 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,040 Speaker 1: I love that nine pounds and I had a friend 826 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,239 Speaker 1: who just gave birth to a ten pound baby. He 827 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 1: looks I mean, he looks like a toddler who just 828 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 1: walked out of her But anyway, um, okay, I have 829 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: a hilarious email from Jennifer Um. Her seject line is 830 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:54,400 Speaker 1: very straightforward. It is gender revealed parties equal sign stupid. 831 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,879 Speaker 1: So here we go. Jennifer. She says, I'm a mom. 832 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: Most of my friends are ms. I love babies, my own, 833 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,520 Speaker 1: my friends, nieces and nephews. I love the baby who 834 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 1: was gurgling at me in the grocery store yesterday. He 835 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 1: was really cute. I have traveled long distances to attend 836 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,400 Speaker 1: baby showers or visit new babies. I bring food to 837 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: new parents and lend my support in any way I can. 838 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: I use social media. Gender reveal parties are stupid. George 839 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,880 Speaker 1: Packer was right. They reflected creeping narcissism in our society. 840 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,160 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, no one outside of 841 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,280 Speaker 1: the immediate family cares boy, girl, whatever. It's just another 842 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 1: excuse to be the center of attention. Come to my 843 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: house and cheer for me. I procreated calm down people. 844 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,960 Speaker 1: And then Jennifer has a smiley face. So thank you 845 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,120 Speaker 1: for writing in and telling us just what you think, Jennifer. 846 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 1: We appreciate it, and thanks to everybody who's written into us. 847 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where you can 848 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,920 Speaker 1: send all of your emails and if you want to 849 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,799 Speaker 1: find out all of our other social media properties and 850 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,040 Speaker 1: check out all of our podcast, blogs and videos, there's 851 00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,799 Speaker 1: one place to go. It's stuff Mom never told you 852 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: dot com For more on this and thousands of other topics. 853 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: Isn't how stuff works dot com