Speaker 1: The world is telling us all one thing right, and
Speaker 1: it's not true. It's just the world is lying and
Speaker 1: or manipulating us, and comedy gives us a chance to
Speaker 1: be like may I, may I give my rebuttal. Hello,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome Neil
Speaker 1: Brennan on the show. Neil is a director, writer, actor,
Speaker 1: and comedian most known for co creating and co writing
Speaker 1: the Comedy Central series Chappelle Show with Dave Chappelle and
Speaker 1: cult movie classic Half Bait. Neil received three Emmy nominations
Speaker 1: for Chappelle's Show, one for directing and the other two
Speaker 1: for writing and producing. He has also performed stand up
Speaker 1: on Last Call with Carson Dally, Late Night with Jimmy,
Speaker 1: Fallon Lopez Tonight, and Conan. Recently, his comedy special called
Speaker 1: Blocks was released on Netflix. In this episode, I talked
Speaker 1: to Neil Brennan about his comedy and upbringing. As early
Speaker 1: as eight years old, Neil has been interested in comedy
Speaker 1: for its fairness. He reveals who his early influences were
Speaker 1: and what it was like working with Dave Chappelle. In
Speaker 1: this episode, I also gave Neil some impromptu psychological tests
Speaker 1: to help us both understand more about his unique mind.
Speaker 1: We also touch on the topics of relationships, mindfulness, cognitive distortions,
Speaker 1: and neurodiversity. This was a really fun episode. It was
Speaker 1: great chatting with Neil. I really like his comedy, but
Speaker 1: I also really like his humanity and his vulnerability. When
Speaker 1: I watched his Netflix special, I was especially touched by
Speaker 1: his journey to overcome depression, and I reached out to
Speaker 1: him because I really wanted to help him. I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode. So without further ado, I'll bring
Speaker 1: you Neil Brennan. Mister Neil, how you doing good. I'm
Speaker 1: doing pretty good. I'm doing pretty good. As you know.
Speaker 1: I saw your recent Netflix special Blocks and was really
Speaker 1: deeply touched by it, and you know, I'm like laughing
Speaker 1: so hard for like three fourths of it, and then
Speaker 1: you know, you get really real, you know, and the
Speaker 1: whole sort of tone change there at the end, right,
Speaker 1: and it's like I went from like to like oh shit,
Speaker 1: you know, like what the fuck I'm a therapist and
Speaker 1: this is upsetting. Yeah no, but I mean talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, being able to manipulate your viewer's emotions, right,
Speaker 1: like to kind of really you know, I really empathized
Speaker 1: for you, and so I really appreciate talking today, and
Speaker 1: I don't want to just jump into the deep end.
Speaker 1: I was hoping we could kind of start and to
Speaker 1: trace kind of like the development of Neil Brennan and
Speaker 1: go back as early as possible. I know you said
Speaker 1: at one point that you've kind of felt like an
Speaker 1: odd ball your entire life. Is that as early as
Speaker 1: you can remember that you've kind of felt that way.
Speaker 1: I think, looking back, I always think I felt like
Speaker 1: an odd ball and felt like this is not a
Speaker 1: good system. That was always the feeling I had where
Speaker 1: I was like it born into my family and I
Speaker 1: was always kind of like, this doesn't seem to be
Speaker 1: right even I have like I have a tiny sample size,
Speaker 1: and this seems like incorrect somehow. It's a public school. No, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about school. I'm talking about my family.
Speaker 1: Oh they're talking about like being three or four, gotcha? Gotcha? Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: and being like this doesn't seem like the best way
Speaker 1: to go about whatever we're trying to do here. So
Speaker 1: I used to cry like all the time, like like ill,
Speaker 1: every they made it, there was a joke like that
Speaker 1: I had a streak going where I cried every day
Speaker 1: and then they would like make they'd go like, we're
Speaker 1: gonna make you cry. If we don't, you didn't, you
Speaker 1: didn't know, you didn't cry today, we gotta make your crect.
Speaker 1: It was just cold. I'm one of ten kids. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's clear. I was gonna bring that up, actually,
Speaker 1: so yeah, let me like, let me lay the pipe,
Speaker 1: let me lay, let me lay it out a little bit.
Speaker 1: My parents were born in nineteen thirty. That's my dad.
Speaker 1: He's one of thirteen. He had a twin my dad,
Speaker 1: and the twin died, and prior to his death, my
Speaker 1: grandmother was very proud of her twins. And then my
Speaker 1: dad's twin died and my grandmother, in true Catholic Irish
Speaker 1: Catholic form, said I'll never be proud of anything again
Speaker 1: as long as I live. Like God had punished her.
Speaker 1: So I think she took it out of my dad,
Speaker 1: and then he carried that with him and my mom's mom.
Speaker 1: My mom was born in thirty three to a family
Speaker 1: of four, and her mom died when she was like
Speaker 1: a toddler. And back then there was no They didn't
Speaker 1: even pretend men could raise kids on their own. So
Speaker 1: my mother and her sisters were all split up, and
Speaker 1: so she kind of came from from that. So my
Speaker 1: parents met and tried to make a go of it,
Speaker 1: and neither of them were from especially as evidenced by
Speaker 1: Sea above what I just said, not from very solid foundations,
Speaker 1: and I I think they were like, well, if we
Speaker 1: keep having kids, maybe it'll be it'll get better. And
Speaker 1: they were Catholics, so they had to keep having kids
Speaker 1: and it just was chaos. You know, it was chaos
Speaker 1: headed by two people who didn't know a ton about
Speaker 1: how to do it. And I was the youngest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you're the youngest. And I have actually been wondering
Speaker 1: to what extent you felt like you had to, because
Speaker 1: there's all the psychological research that when you're in a
Speaker 1: big family like that, you can kind of feel a
Speaker 1: sense of like you need to compete to like, for
Speaker 1: attention and things like that. And I don't know if
Speaker 1: that similar feelings you feel in the comedy field you
Speaker 1: know today, you know, stem somewhat from some of those
Speaker 1: early kind of things. I'm competitive for sure. I mean
Speaker 1: I want to be good at my job. I want
Speaker 1: to be high status like, you know, I think that's
Speaker 1: any human being or most human beings. I mean, I
Speaker 1: have another brothers who's a comedian, So a fifth of
Speaker 1: my family, a fifth of ten people are comedians, so
Speaker 1: something there's got to be something there. But there's all
Speaker 1: so something about like I don't know where's funny. So
Speaker 1: in terms of like psychologically what am I doing? Obviously
Speaker 1: I like the approval, I like the attention, and but
Speaker 1: there's also a big part of me that wants comedy
Speaker 1: to be more of like I want it to be
Speaker 1: more cohesion and more camaraderie and more of a like,
Speaker 1: we're all in this together kind of thing, which I
Speaker 1: get disappointed when it's not. I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: a contradiction contradiction exactly, but maybe. And and also, comedy
Speaker 1: is fair. That's the thing I like about comedy is
Speaker 1: it's like it's fair. There's not there's some level of
Speaker 1: arbitrariness to it. But for the most part, if you
Speaker 1: have a good premise and you write it well and
Speaker 1: you perform it well, it's gonna work. You know, you
Speaker 1: grew up my father was an alcoholic, and that's not fair.
Speaker 1: It's entirely random and arbitrary. So so that's the that's
Speaker 1: the that's my That's the thing I like about comedy
Speaker 1: is it's like this shit's fair. It just he does
Speaker 1: seem like a lot of comedy is is bound up
Speaker 1: about being true about not suffering, but maybe like common suffering.
Speaker 1: Everyone can kind of resonate with something you just don't
Speaker 1: tend to find that. The best or the most poper
Speaker 1: comedians are like that that super positive happiness persona, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm just like going up in the stage and
Speaker 1: be like everyone you know, like, but so let's all
Speaker 1: be happy. It's not useful. That's separate. It's that's a
Speaker 1: separate genre. That's that's hallmark, you know. That's not what
Speaker 1: comedy's for. Comedy is for Like I mean, people say,
Speaker 1: like the job of the comedian. I love when people
Speaker 1: say the job of the comedian because I've been in
Speaker 1: comedy for thirty years. I've never heard what the job is.
Speaker 1: The world is telling us all one thing right, and
Speaker 1: it's not true. It's just the world is lying and
Speaker 1: or manipulating us, and comedy gives us a chance to
Speaker 1: be like, may I give my rebuttal marriage? Marriage? May
Speaker 1: I speak quickly or like men and women women, can
Speaker 1: I say something very quickly? Or religion, do you mind
Speaker 1: if I you know, with all due respect, dogs, you know,
Speaker 1: or whatever your thing is. So being optimistic and positive
Speaker 1: about it is not not it wouldn't be. I mean,
Speaker 1: there is a way to do comedy that's very positive,
Speaker 1: but it's in some ways it's still negative. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I completely agree. I mean there's something inherently funnier about
Speaker 1: like if I came up and the first thing and
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, when I got some news for you,
Speaker 1: like we're all not gonna be okay, you know, there's
Speaker 1: something somehow funnier about that than like just come out
Speaker 1: Mark Mark Maren has one of the greatest jokes. I
Speaker 1: can't believe how great a joke it is. He said,
Speaker 1: he's been doing it recently. He said, Look, I don't
Speaker 1: I don't want to seem negative, but I don't think
Speaker 1: anything's ever gonna get better ever again. Yeah, And there's
Speaker 1: something funny about that in that context. It crush it.
Speaker 1: But he's talking about society. He's talking about like the earth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's so broad. Yeah, and it should be like,
Speaker 1: you know, feel people going like the fuck is wrong?
Speaker 1: With this guy. But it's so true that people have
Speaker 1: to laugh. No, I hear you. I'd like to just
Speaker 1: stay on your childhood for a little bit longer because
Speaker 1: I'm am a psychologist. So I was wondering, like what
Speaker 1: when were you? When did you first discover you were funny?
Speaker 1: Like I remember personally, you know, I was sent to
Speaker 1: attention a lot because I was just making the kids
Speaker 1: laugh because like I was in special ed and like
Speaker 1: that was like my way of acting out, Like was
Speaker 1: it was it a way of acting out for you
Speaker 1: at all? In any way, It's always been an equalizer
Speaker 1: to me. It's rarely about something else, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. It's not like my parents are not getting
Speaker 1: along so I'm gonna take my dick out at dinner.
Speaker 1: It was ever that. It just was never that. It
Speaker 1: was more about for me. It was more about like
Speaker 1: logic and like wait, it was more just like if
Speaker 1: I may. It was always that to me, And and
Speaker 1: it was like because I felt like the system that
Speaker 1: I was I found myself in was was like broken
Speaker 1: and just like this is wrong. It was always that.
Speaker 1: It was always like hmmm, it's the face I make
Speaker 1: in the blocks fro I'm like a friend of mine
Speaker 1: calls it Neil Brennan face where it's like it's like
Speaker 1: the fuck, but it's always been that. But teachers loved you.
Speaker 1: Teachers did like me. I mean when I tried, the
Speaker 1: problem was I uh, I wish I could go to
Speaker 1: school now, like I read all the time. I'm studious
Speaker 1: and I'm intelligent and stuff and like, but I was
Speaker 1: not then. I just was too disorganized, I think emotionally.
Speaker 1: Can you give me any examples, like do you have
Speaker 1: memories in your head of being like five, six, seven
Speaker 1: years old and making everyone laugh around you? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: remember getting a lap that was so big I was
Speaker 1: embarrassed and I was probably eight nine. Maybe do you
Speaker 1: remember what the joke was. I just did an impression
Speaker 1: of somebody and it was like it was it just crushed.
Speaker 1: So yeah, who are some of your earliest comedic influences.
Speaker 1: Brian Reagan. I've never heard Brian Reagan. I saw Brian
Speaker 1: Reagan like kill and because my brother's comedian, I got
Speaker 1: to go to the comedy clubs when I was in
Speaker 1: high school, and I saw Brian Reagan at the Improv
Speaker 1: in probably nineteen eighty eight and killing incredibly funny. I mean,
Speaker 1: so prior Carlin, those kinds of guys didn't really they
Speaker 1: didn't really move me until I was, you know, in
Speaker 1: my twenties. But Bill Hicks was really big for me.
Speaker 1: Like I saw him live, I made Chappelle come see
Speaker 1: him live in ninety two. David Tel friend of my brothers,
Speaker 1: Chris Rock really big. I mean in terms of me,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm like in terms of people who weren't Dave.
Speaker 1: So yeah. So those would be my early early influences.
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, influence is the right word. Hicks would
Speaker 1: probably be the number one of those. This is great,
Speaker 1: It is amazing. Is there any other can you think
Speaker 1: of any other sort of aspects of your odd ball
Speaker 1: being that you think may have contributed to your comedic genius?
Speaker 1: Do you like when I when I describe it as
Speaker 1: comedic genius? I think there's no other There's no other
Speaker 1: way to describe it, right, Let's be honest, There's simply
Speaker 1: no other word for it. Yeah, fud flattery, ego a
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, for the sake of the cover.
Speaker 1: You didn't see the show. I don't believe that about myself.
Speaker 1: I just never feel like huh and I will say
Speaker 1: in comedy, I feel like I belong. But there's you know,
Speaker 1: but there's always in this show, there's an anecdote about
Speaker 1: people reminded me like not at the level you think,
Speaker 1: or not at the way you think, and not the
Speaker 1: and even the thing where I was a writer and
Speaker 1: all writers thought you seem like more of a comedian.
Speaker 1: Comedians are like more of a writer, like there's it's
Speaker 1: it's uh. I don't have a lot of peers in
Speaker 1: terms of like the my arc, the arc of my career.
Speaker 1: I definitely want to get into that more, especially when
Speaker 1: I give you like a test, as I'm going to
Speaker 1: give you a test a little bit later. I guess
Speaker 1: I'm thinking more oddball in the sense of like the
Speaker 1: neurodiversity movement, like were you ever diagnosed with like ADHD?
Speaker 1: Or like are you an autism spectrum? No, I've never
Speaker 1: been diagnosed with any never been diagnosed with anything any
Speaker 1: and no, and I mean depression obviously, but like ADHD,
Speaker 1: I don't think I don't have an access of energy.
Speaker 1: And I've had a lot of people diagnose me over
Speaker 1: Instagram in the last week with what with what, which
Speaker 1: I actually kind of think is fun and funny and
Speaker 1: you like you reached out. This is the best part
Speaker 1: of my doing a Netflix special is all the free treatment.
Speaker 1: What have people been you with? ADHD, autism? Those are
Speaker 1: the two big ones, autism being the number one answer. Gotcha? Okay.
Speaker 1: I didn't bring those up necessarily because I thought that
Speaker 1: they applied to you. Just to be clear, I would
Speaker 1: be happy if they did. Someone was. I did Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan three or four months ago, and a lady was like,
Speaker 1: you have you are on the spectrum and I was
Speaker 1: like all right. And she goes take this test and
Speaker 1: I passed or whatever, and she's like, you are Aspergracy
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I was like, oh, lady, I'll take
Speaker 1: it again like I and I passed again. There I'd
Speaker 1: be happy. I would be I'd be totally satisfied if
Speaker 1: there was a very easy explanation and or modality of
Speaker 1: treatment that I can do to make myself feel differently
Speaker 1: than how I generally feel happy, like clearly, like the
Speaker 1: whole show is kind of about that. Yeah, no, I understand,
Speaker 1: I understand I have some hypotheses, but we get that
Speaker 1: a little bit later into that. But I wanted to
Speaker 1: understand and go back to like when you first met Chappelle,
Speaker 1: you were a doorman, is that right? And you were
Speaker 1: like eighteen years old or something. Yes, I was doorman
Speaker 1: and I was going to NYU Film school. He was eighteen.
Speaker 1: He had moved from DC to New York to be
Speaker 1: a comedian. And I moved from Philly to to New
Speaker 1: York to go to n YU for film school. And
Speaker 1: uh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah hunh me and mine
Speaker 1: and we became friends and and kind of we would
Speaker 1: we would just talk about comedy and movies and stuff,
Speaker 1: and we felt like, or I certainly I felt like
Speaker 1: we could, you know, do something good. So then I
Speaker 1: started writing for other TV shows and then uh and
Speaker 1: I would he would. We would talk about jokes for
Speaker 1: his act, like maybe say this or say that, and
Speaker 1: then I and then and then we wrote them movie
Speaker 1: half Baked together, like five years later we were twenty three. Now,
Speaker 1: look I loved Half Bait, you know. And yeah, you're
Speaker 1: the right. A still love have Baked? Thank you? Like
Speaker 1: I love it now? Right? You know? I love it? No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I didn't like it then, but I
Speaker 1: feel like I discovered it later in my life. Let
Speaker 1: me save this. Let me save this first. Oh that's funny.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, there are here's what I'll say about it.
Speaker 1: There are sequences and half Baked that you can watch
Speaker 1: and go, these guys are maybe going to do a
Speaker 1: great sketch show. That's cool. That would be my take
Speaker 1: on it. So the seeds that greatness was there in it.
Speaker 1: You can see it. Yeah, I think like the sequence
Speaker 1: where he goes on a date and there's that that
Speaker 1: the dollars in the corner, and then I think this
Speaker 1: stuff would Sir Smoke a Lot where Dave's talking to
Speaker 1: himself in essence, like that was the day where it
Speaker 1: was like, looking back, we were very like I played
Speaker 1: Sir Smoke a lot and he was himself and then
Speaker 1: I was him and he was the smoke a lot.
Speaker 1: Like it was just very like no one was there
Speaker 1: but us. Yeah, I see that. It was just you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like I it became and it
Speaker 1: was like and then tipped fooge And as you're filming it,
Speaker 1: I was like, I think I know how to cut
Speaker 1: this as a as like a as a with John Cutts,
Speaker 1: but I'm aware that it was like a really tough
Speaker 1: time for you, Like when that came out and sort
Speaker 1: of the initial reception and right for like a year
Speaker 1: or so after it came out was that was not
Speaker 1: a tough time for you, just a bad just a rejection,
Speaker 1: just like a rebuke, you know, and and a setback
Speaker 1: career wise, because you know, it was kind of like
Speaker 1: you're on your way and it was kind of sit out.
Speaker 1: But having said that, I spent a couple of years
Speaker 1: writing with a guy named Mike Sure, who's a great writer,
Speaker 1: and we wrote a couple of movies that didn't get made.
Speaker 1: But it was a fun That was just a fun
Speaker 1: period for me. But you lost touch with Dave for
Speaker 1: a little bit after a half bank, right, you lost
Speaker 1: touch with Dave? Yeah, not like well I didn't have
Speaker 1: his number. We just kind of like drifted. We kind
Speaker 1: of drifted a little. I think there should be half
Speaker 1: big two in that. They're making it right now. Actually,
Speaker 1: I just want to say that I want to put
Speaker 1: that in the universe, and I'm really glad to hear
Speaker 1: that being made. Apparently they just finished filming. I mean,
Speaker 1: did you did you write it all for it? You
Speaker 1: did that? You manifested that. I just manifested that ship.
Speaker 1: Just now, wait, so did you write you don't even
Speaker 1: believe in manifestation? You did it? Wait, now, how do
Speaker 1: you know I don't believe in manifestations. I'm a scientist
Speaker 1: because I don't. I think that goes against your Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it goes against your So you assume that
Speaker 1: goes against Anthos. No, I actually believe a lot in
Speaker 1: certain karma Buddhist principles. But anyway we can. It's a
Speaker 1: whole other conversation. But no, that's that's amazing. So what
Speaker 1: was your contribution to Half Baked two? Nothing? Literally? Nothing? Okay,
Speaker 1: so you don't even have like a how like nostalgic
Speaker 1: would that be? For like if you had a walk
Speaker 1: on scene, you know, like Stephen King does in all
Speaker 1: his movies. I'm in Half Baked one. I don't know.
Speaker 1: They just didn't ask interesting. Well, I look forward to
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Speaker 1: book helps you grow and thrive and become your best self. Okay,
Speaker 1: now back to the show. Okay, so you co created
Speaker 1: and co wrote Chappelle's Show. Some people miss label that.
Speaker 1: They call it the Chappelle Show, right, like it's Chappelle's Show.
Speaker 1: And that was just obviously wildly successful and made a
Speaker 1: huge cultural I mean, it's part of the cultural consciousness.
Speaker 1: You know, so much of so many of those skits
Speaker 1: and things of that nature. Was it season three? Like
Speaker 1: Dave decided he just was going to leave that? What
Speaker 1: was that like for you personally? When that show stopped?
Speaker 1: You didn't even I believe you weren't even notified that
Speaker 1: it was going to be that he was out. Yes,
Speaker 1: I was not notified. My focus is on you, So
Speaker 1: I'm curious what I was like for you. That was
Speaker 1: a very, very very bad period of my life. Arguably,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even say arguably, I would say it was
Speaker 1: the worst period of my life. The biggest shock, set back, pain, confusion, anguish,
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. You know, it was reliant on
Speaker 1: somebody who changed their mind, and it was sort of
Speaker 1: it was obviously jarring and obviously like the financial stuff,
Speaker 1: that's whatever, fine. It was more about kind of before
Speaker 1: it where the where I kind of got low balled
Speaker 1: negotiation wise, and and it just kind of sucked because
Speaker 1: I felt like I made this big contribution and they
Speaker 1: manipulated it to where they didn't have to pay me,
Speaker 1: and Dave kind of supported them in it and just sucked.
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry to hear that. Yeah, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it just sucks. So yeah, I mean I appreciate it
Speaker 1: in some ways. It's not like I didn't. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: kind of I just felt like devalued and then I
Speaker 1: would say devalued and then just sort of like basic lifestyle.
Speaker 1: It was kind of like a death in all honesty,
Speaker 1: and it was three bad years. I would say emotionally.
Speaker 1: Were you mad at Deve? Yeah? Yeah. You know, life
Speaker 1: is so interesting how we can have these like ups
Speaker 1: and downs. We can like kind of feel like we're
Speaker 1: on top of the world and then just like boom,
Speaker 1: we're like we don't feel that way. I mean, that
Speaker 1: must have been an incredible feeling those those first couple
Speaker 1: of years, though, when I mean, I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: a little bit about, you know, the positive aspect of that.
Speaker 1: What was that like to be really on top of
Speaker 1: the world. I mean, that was the most popular comedy
Speaker 1: show on TV at the time. I believe I was
Speaker 1: on Cable, Yeah, on Cable, Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean,
Speaker 1: the thing I loved about the show and this speaks
Speaker 1: that thing of like the camaraderie that I'm seeking, And
Speaker 1: I really love writing with Dave. I really loved directing it.
Speaker 1: I really loved coming to ideas. I really loved producing.
Speaker 1: I loved the sort of tiny the absolute control over
Speaker 1: this thing, and not control for like control's sake, control because,
Speaker 1: like I because Half Baked had kind of been like
Speaker 1: we kind of got mauled because we were so young,
Speaker 1: we were able to like once we did Chappell's show
Speaker 1: was more like, I know what our role on the
Speaker 1: show needs to be, and it's going to be where
Speaker 1: it's every fabric, every lens, every cast, it's all coming
Speaker 1: through us. But I also really always felt very strong
Speaker 1: connection with Dave creatively from the time we're eighteen, and
Speaker 1: it was very fun to just argue and come with
Speaker 1: ideas and improve or reject and all that stuff going
Speaker 1: both ways. And it came from a very deep I
Speaker 1: felt like because Dave wasn't that popular, I felt a
Speaker 1: a little responsible because he wrote half Big. He asked
Speaker 1: me to write hap Bike with him, and I feel like,
Speaker 1: I think, like, psychologically, I feel like I fucked that
Speaker 1: up for him, even though that's not true, but like
Speaker 1: feel that way. And there was like an anger to
Speaker 1: it that was great, you know, like that thing of
Speaker 1: I'm I'm Davis said in the past like he's never
Speaker 1: met someone more obsessed with justice than me and obsessed
Speaker 1: with fairness. So it's a really good It was just
Speaker 1: a great outlet. May be spectrum, Oh yeah, logic good man, hmmm,
Speaker 1: let's do it, because like you're saying some things here,
Speaker 1: like when you were younger as orl as you can remember,
Speaker 1: or you were kind of you're probably you know what.
Speaker 1: I find a lot about people not to the spectrum,
Speaker 1: because and I love people not to the inspectrum. By
Speaker 1: the way, I help a lot of kids who are geniuses.
Speaker 1: That's one of my jobs helping kids. They're called twice
Speaker 1: exceptional kids. But something about a lot of them is
Speaker 1: that they're unintentionally funny because they are no bullshit. You know,
Speaker 1: they really like to cut all of the fata and
Speaker 1: they just say, they just say what they perceive. And
Speaker 1: they also can't stand logical inconsistency. This is something that
Speaker 1: it sounds like when you were really young that drove
Speaker 1: you crazy. Yeah. My brain is very organized. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: if I see a logical and consistently I'll be like what, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but now you have to call it. You said that.
Speaker 1: Now you're saying that like that is a direct contradict
Speaker 1: and people don't like it. Like that's the thing that people,
Speaker 1: especially in relationships with women. It's like they don't. I
Speaker 1: had a woman's fairly recently. I didn't come here to
Speaker 1: be consistent and it's like, well I did, But that's funny,
Speaker 1: that's I mean, you know, it's that's kind of funny. Yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: of course it's funny. Yeah. Human humans aren't. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's just not what humans are, you know, and you're
Speaker 1: kind of we contain multitudes. I mean, that's the funny
Speaker 1: thing about the that that aphorism, that it's from a
Speaker 1: Walt Living poem, We contain multitudes. It sounds like it's
Speaker 1: this lofty thing. He's basically just going, it's the line
Speaker 1: before it is like, do I contradict myself? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: contain multitudes? You know what I mean? Like he's like, hey,
Speaker 1: what do you know? It's one of my favorite quotes.
Speaker 1: It's it. Yeah, it's amazing. I didn't. I didn't realize
Speaker 1: the line before until recently. Oh nice, Yes, that quote
Speaker 1: opens up my book Wire to Create actually because we
Speaker 1: it describes the creative person to a t, you know,
Speaker 1: so wow, you actually open up the can of worms
Speaker 1: of relate your relationships. And you also you also said, like,
Speaker 1: you know, people don't like it that I like logical concy.
Speaker 1: That's another theme right about you, is that there are
Speaker 1: a lot of things people don't like from your perception
Speaker 1: because you you combine lots of things that usually you
Speaker 1: don't see all correlated in a single human or put
Speaker 1: another way, put another way, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: you do things you do see things correlated, but with you,
Speaker 1: you break the correlational structure. So you'll be vegan, but
Speaker 1: you're not a big drinker. You'll you know, try ayahuasca,
Speaker 1: but we'ed, you know, like you're like, I don't I
Speaker 1: stay away from weed. You know, like there are lots
Speaker 1: of these kind of I can keep going down the list.
Speaker 1: You know. Is this resonating with you at all? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah no, that's that's exactly right. Like I do embody
Speaker 1: a lot of contradictions in a way that they're they're
Speaker 1: they're I don't want to say they're anti social, but
Speaker 1: they're they're not They're not like great for social cohesion.
Speaker 1: I mean, just not drinking is not eating meat. One
Speaker 1: of the impetuses for the show is is that I
Speaker 1: was in therapy and I was, you know what, my
Speaker 1: female therapist, and she was like said something about relationships.
Speaker 1: I was like about finding somebody. I was like, listen
Speaker 1: to me. I don't drink, I don't really smoke weed,
Speaker 1: I don't eat meat. I work at night. All of
Speaker 1: my friends are like super genius, hilarious people, and and
Speaker 1: I'm generally disagreeable as a person. It's like I just
Speaker 1: have it like that. It just gets smaller and smaller
Speaker 1: and smaller and small and smaller and smaller. Like my
Speaker 1: the pond. I can fish in something that strikes me
Speaker 1: about you, was like, you're almost too honest about yourself
Speaker 1: and about things. It's almost like a reality matters so
Speaker 1: much to you that I think you shoot yourself in
Speaker 1: the sometimes by allowing a certain magic and illusion, a
Speaker 1: positive illusion, to emerge. And you know, in relationships, so
Speaker 1: much of relationships really is having an illusion that you're
Speaker 1: That's what love is, you know, the love emotion. My
Speaker 1: colleague Stephen Pinker says that love is a doomsday device
Speaker 1: because the emotional love means that when the hotter person
Speaker 1: moves in next door, you don't immediately move on to
Speaker 1: them because you're so in love. You're so irrationally building
Speaker 1: them up on a pedestal because of love that it's
Speaker 1: actually evolved as a doomsday device. That's Stephen Pinker's the
Speaker 1: notion in how the mind works. Yeah, I feel like
Speaker 1: you're like, no, no illusions, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But you know what's interesting is I have no illusions
Speaker 1: and yet I have total dysmorphia about my life and
Speaker 1: position in the world. You do, you really do? Because
Speaker 1: like you killed it in blocks and I genuinely mean that.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to build up your goal, but I
Speaker 1: was dying of laughter, right, and then and then you're
Speaker 1: almost like, by the way, stop laughing, I really do suck.
Speaker 1: And you didn't say that. You didn't say that, but
Speaker 1: it's sort of like, but you're not wrong. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like you do that in a lot of
Speaker 1: areas of your life. Probably. I have a joke that
Speaker 1: I did with a friend of mine which is, like,
Speaker 1: my life is amazing, if I could only experience it
Speaker 1: for one minute, if I could really like it, Like
Speaker 1: I know how fortunate I am talent wise at this point,
Speaker 1: Like I make a great living. I've made a great
Speaker 1: living for a long time. I know the some of
Speaker 1: the most important people in the world I have access.
Speaker 1: I like, there's I had. There's so few areas in
Speaker 1: which I'm not doing well. And yet I somehow my
Speaker 1: brain is like programmed to look at the negative. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I look it. I love your I can't wait to
Speaker 1: hear these fucking hypothesis. Yes, yes, I think let's just
Speaker 1: jump into that and we can return to other on
Speaker 1: greig Worms like relationship all that stuff. But there's morphia
Speaker 1: as a huge thing, dude. The dys morphia is a
Speaker 1: huge thing about Like it's like reality distortion in a
Speaker 1: negative way. It's like the opposite of the Steve Jobs thing,
Speaker 1: and it's like I wake up with it, you know,
Speaker 1: I have a hypothesis and just want to just just
Speaker 1: throw this out here because it's probably something you've never
Speaker 1: thought of. So well, I'm going to start with a
Speaker 1: quote by the comedian Greg Giraldo. Do you know who
Speaker 1: that is? Greg? Yeah? Mine? Yeah, amazing, amazing. Hasn't he
Speaker 1: passed away? Yeah, he's been. He's been dead for a
Speaker 1: long time, so may he rest in peace. But he said,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm the piece of shit at the
Speaker 1: center of the universe. Now, that's a quote of his,
Speaker 1: and I noticed that characteristic in a lot of comedians.
Speaker 1: I like with you, Yes, there is a neurotic sort
Speaker 1: of do you feel like you're kind of broken at
Speaker 1: your core? In a way? On the one hand, is
Speaker 1: that true? Like how do you feel at the core
Speaker 1: of you? What's at the core of Neil? At my core?
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm wrong until everyone tells me I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't, I
Speaker 1: don't all these points of view. I'm like, why do
Speaker 1: you drink? Like why would you do this to your
Speaker 1: body to your like, like, why would society promote this
Speaker 1: thing that kills you know, there's thirty thousand DUIs a year.
Speaker 1: There's half of crime is committed when people are drunk. Like,
Speaker 1: the stats are horrible. It ruins your personal health, ruins relationship.
Speaker 1: Just none of it's good and people can't stop doing it.
Speaker 1: I like am aware of this ruin. It kind of
Speaker 1: like was a huge problem in my childhood for my
Speaker 1: dad was an alcoholic. So I think I'm right, like, well,
Speaker 1: everyone's going to agree with me on this, and then
Speaker 1: they don't. They go like, no, fuck you, and I'm like, huh,
Speaker 1: fuck me, Okay, let's move on to meet And then
Speaker 1: I go that no fuck you, we love me, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's go and I just go down the line too,
Speaker 1: and then I'm just left by myself. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think I'm like right in a way that's like amazing
Speaker 1: and incredible. I just it's more just like what it's
Speaker 1: the same basic idea I had with as in my family,
Speaker 1: which is like, what, this doesn't seem great. I have
Speaker 1: a joke. It's or not even a joker, but it's like,
Speaker 1: you know what. My favorite part of self loathing is
Speaker 1: the self part. It's like it's similar to the Giraldo
Speaker 1: thing like that. But I but at the same time,
Speaker 1: I really really long for connection with people, and not
Speaker 1: in a way that's bullshit, not on way right. No,
Speaker 1: First of all, I totally get that from you. I mean,
Speaker 1: you like things that are real, meaningful, and you don't
Speaker 1: like the you don't like pretense. You're like the opposite
Speaker 1: of pretense. You know, I don't. Yeah, I tried it. Yes,
Speaker 1: when I'm at my best. Yeah, I can see that clearly.
Speaker 1: But I have a test here, and I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say what this is a test of. But I
Speaker 1: want to score it first before I tell you what
Speaker 1: it's a test of. But can I read some items
Speaker 1: to you and people at home try to guess what
Speaker 1: it's a test ups as we play the game. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: because it's it's a construct that I've been studying for
Speaker 1: twenty years, but many people are not aware of it
Speaker 1: in the general population. But I think it's very important.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to read each of these items and
Speaker 1: just tell me on a scale of one to five,
Speaker 1: one being not at all to five being I agree
Speaker 1: very much with that statement. Okay, I can become entirely
Speaker 1: absorbed in thinking about my personal affairs, my health, my cares,
Speaker 1: or my relations to others. Seven. Five Okay, yeah, I gotcha.
Speaker 1: My feelings are easily hurt by ridicule or the slightest
Speaker 1: remarks of others. Five. I feel that I have enough
Speaker 1: on my hand about worrying about other people's troubles. Three
Speaker 1: you know, be bluntly honest with me about these things.
Speaker 1: I well, I don't. That's I would need like follow
Speaker 1: ups for that. Do you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 1: I have like ah, because I do. I'm very codependent,
Speaker 1: I agree, incredibly codependent. So yes, and that's correlated with
Speaker 1: this construct, by the way, it's correlated with this. I'm
Speaker 1: wildly codependent. Okay, Wow, Okay, we're onto something, We're onto something. Okay.
Speaker 1: I often interpret the remarks of others in a personal way.
Speaker 1: Five I easily, I easily become wrapped up in my
Speaker 1: own interests and forget the existence of others. Is that
Speaker 1: a three? Five? Five? Okay, I mean, okay, okay, the
Speaker 1: right thing? You know. I was editing a video one
Speaker 1: time and like missed a flight just I'm in the airport. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I dislike being with a group unless I know that
Speaker 1: I am appreciated by at least one of those present.
Speaker 1: Five I am jealous of good looking people. I don't
Speaker 1: know why that's on the scale, too, Yeah too, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't. It's like beautiful dummy. Yeah yeah, that's like
Speaker 1: I don't know what that's on the scale, but it
Speaker 1: is science, on the scientific scale. I tend to feel
Speaker 1: humiliated when criticized. Five I wonder why other people aren't
Speaker 1: more appreciative of my good qualities. Ten it's five pretty deep, right.
Speaker 1: I am especially sensitive to success and failure. Five. I
Speaker 1: have problems that nobody else seems to understand. Five. I
Speaker 1: mean this sounds like you were, you've been, You've been
Speaker 1: tapping my conversation. This is a this is a this
Speaker 1: is a construct. I don't know what this is a
Speaker 1: test for, but I have it. I want, I know,
Speaker 1: I know. Okay, you're you're, you're, you're. By the way,
Speaker 1: you're racing this test so far, you're raising this. I
Speaker 1: try to avoid rejection at all costs. Five. My secret thoughts, feelings,
Speaker 1: and actions would hard some of my friends. That might
Speaker 1: be too dramatic. No, I mean, I'll go four. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I tend to become involved in relationships in which I
Speaker 1: alternately adore and despise the other person. Four. Even when
Speaker 1: I am in a group of friends, I often feel
Speaker 1: very alone and uneasy. Five I respect, I resent others
Speaker 1: who have what I lack. That's an interesting one. I
Speaker 1: don't resent. I don't have a ton of resentments with
Speaker 1: that stuff. I'll go too on that. I see that,
Speaker 1: by the way, I see how amazingly incurage like supportive
Speaker 1: you are of your friends. Who are you know, like
Speaker 1: Chris Rock and like Chappelle. I do see that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Chris one time said he's like, you're not competitive with Dave,
Speaker 1: because it's I don't. There's here's what, here's the caveat.
Speaker 1: I'm competitive with Dave ideologically. Like we used to do
Speaker 1: a joke where my my dream for him on his
Speaker 1: deathbed his final words to be Neil was right, Like,
Speaker 1: that's I want that. But I don't think I'm funnier
Speaker 1: than him. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I'm funnier than him.
Speaker 1: We have been in situations where I think I have
Speaker 1: the funnier idea. But I don't think I'm like this clown,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like yeah. Just to clarify
Speaker 1: when you say ideology, like, are you talking about like
Speaker 1: some of his like things he's coming under fire for recently,
Speaker 1: like now ideology thirty years ago? I mean it's thirty
Speaker 1: it's a thirty year argument. Gotcha, gotcha? Okay, And this
Speaker 1: is just the last question on the test. Defeat or
Speaker 1: disappointment usually shame or anger me, but I try not
Speaker 1: to show it. Five. Yeah, so you score very high
Speaker 1: on this scale. Is it covert narcissism. It's covert narcissism,
Speaker 1: that's right, or I call it vulnerable narcissism, which that's
Speaker 1: that's charitable. Yes, yes, Well, but the thing is, I
Speaker 1: don't I've been really trying to work to help people
Speaker 1: and say we have we all have a little bit
Speaker 1: of this in us. I don't believe in this notion
Speaker 1: of like, oh, there's the narcissis and I'm not the narcissist, right,
Speaker 1: like you know, like these are really human characteristics and
Speaker 1: kind of try to help people with their growth and
Speaker 1: self actualization because it's what's heartbreaking about people who score
Speaker 1: high on the scale. And I've written papers about this
Speaker 1: in the scientific community from a clinical perspective, and I
Speaker 1: can send you my papers on if you want to
Speaker 1: read clinical implications of this. The thing is that it's
Speaker 1: so strongly correlated with depression, and it's so strongly correlated
Speaker 1: with with mental well well being. And this is the thing.
Speaker 1: The difference between this and grandiose narcissism narcissm is this
Speaker 1: is at the hands of the person themselves. You know,
Speaker 1: they are causing their own suffering in so many ways.
Speaker 1: And I know what's the what's grandiose n Who's causing that?
Speaker 1: It's like the thumping of the chest. I am the
Speaker 1: greatest because I'm inherently superior to others. That's great. Fold
Speaker 1: of narcissm is different. It's some like an entitlement sort
Speaker 1: of grandiose fantasies that are more have shame like involved
Speaker 1: with it. You know. It's like I want to be great,
Speaker 1: but I also kind of feel shameful that I want
Speaker 1: to be great, you know, as opposed to like the
Speaker 1: grandiose narciss has no problem saying they want to be great, right,
Speaker 1: They're like, I'm great, you know, Yeah, I've been embarrassed
Speaker 1: by the positive reaction I've gotten from the blocks. I've
Speaker 1: not been embarrassed by the positive reaction. I've been embarrassed
Speaker 1: by my reaction to the positive reaction, which is I
Speaker 1: really like it, and it I really like it to
Speaker 1: the point where I'm like, I told a friend of mine,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm like a death spot in exile. And
Speaker 1: I finally came back to my contrary and I'm like,
Speaker 1: fuck you. Yeah, I see that there's like this inner
Speaker 1: resistance to just owning your awesomeness to be very Oprah.
Speaker 1: That sounds very Oprah, but I love Oprah, so I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go there for a second. You know, there's kind
Speaker 1: of this like have you been in a relationship, you
Speaker 1: know the person is like, wow, I just adore you, Neil,
Speaker 1: like you're the best, and that you have this immediate
Speaker 1: reaction to kind of like prove that wrong in some way.
Speaker 1: Oh that now I'm like, i I'm like, yeah, oh
Speaker 1: you're like I am, yeah, I know, you get it,
Speaker 1: you get gotcha. And then if if somehow something goes wrong,
Speaker 1: they're like that illusion is broken in some way where
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, well you're not you know, then shame
Speaker 1: you'll feel out of shame, yeah, or I'll like work
Speaker 1: hard to prove that wrong. Yeah, yeah, or I'll work
Speaker 1: hard to improve myself where I'll like I'm it's like
Speaker 1: I can white knuckle any relationship, like I can stay
Speaker 1: in a relationship forever, just you know, it's their hard work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't like the label covert narcism, Like
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not trying to call you a narcissist, right,
Speaker 1: that's like again, I really believe there's a humanity underneath
Speaker 1: all of this, Like all of us want to be loved,
Speaker 1: all of us want to belong, all of us want
Speaker 1: to be accepted, and then some of us really what
Speaker 1: you know, want to be accepted some of us like
Speaker 1: really you know, it's it's all continuum. But I feel
Speaker 1: I believe the inner the inner your inner world, like
Speaker 1: and I had some CBT kind of questions. I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you as well about your inner world, you know,
Speaker 1: and the way you think, because maybe if maybe, if
Speaker 1: we could just care you, Yeah, if we just change
Speaker 1: these thought patterns, like you'll be I think it'll be
Speaker 1: so much happier, but maybe you might not be as small.
Speaker 1: What's the treatment for COVID narcissism. Well, they're there. Well,
Speaker 1: there is a treatment because I have a joke about
Speaker 1: narcissists where uh, they have the disease, you have the
Speaker 1: side effects and and it's I had another joke the
Speaker 1: other day about narcism, which is a buddy mind said
Speaker 1: it's like having turets, and I said, yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: having turets. But the only word you yell out is me.
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, what the what the like? But that's
Speaker 1: grandiose narcissism. Yes, Like this flavor that you have is
Speaker 1: is it's turned within this. The harm is self harm.
Speaker 1: The harm is not other harm. You know, that's the
Speaker 1: that's the major difference here. You know, you are causing
Speaker 1: yourself so much unnecessary suffering. What am I trying to
Speaker 1: resolve that that the grandiose narcissist? What's the difference in
Speaker 1: terms of like the underlying the presumed underlying cause. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so usually with this thing is that there's like a
Speaker 1: feeling of fragility. There's a sort of like an underlying
Speaker 1: idea that you are ultimately fragile, like you can't somehow
Speaker 1: handle being whole stop rejected, Like fear of rejection is
Speaker 1: actually a big thing. And uh, well, sometimes I don't
Speaker 1: want to get too clinical, but vultable narcissm is something
Speaker 1: times correlated with borderline personality disorder, for instance, in the
Speaker 1: psychological liturture. Now that's a more extreme clinical diagnosis, where
Speaker 1: vulnem narcissm is just a personality trait that people differ on.
Speaker 1: But the fear of rejection is like so central to
Speaker 1: so many of these kinds of things, and shame is
Speaker 1: so central, and usually it develops as a result of
Speaker 1: being young and not having every time you express your
Speaker 1: needs a parental figure would invalidate those needs. So if
Speaker 1: you're a young baby, that's usually how it develops. That's
Speaker 1: what we found, you know, is like if you're if
Speaker 1: you're a kid and even just crying and the parents
Speaker 1: that stopped crying right or you're like, I really want
Speaker 1: food and the parents says, you know, well, my needs
Speaker 1: are more important right now than you wanting food. The
Speaker 1: child starts to develop shame for normal, healthy motivations, and
Speaker 1: then when they grow up, if they have like big
Speaker 1: ambitions in life, they feel shame somehow well, you know,
Speaker 1: for even though they feel like they want they really
Speaker 1: do want to be great, you know, So there's that
Speaker 1: they kind of this residual leftover sort of shame for
Speaker 1: being great for fully you know, standing out. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: the conflict of like wanting it and then put at
Speaker 1: the same be like, ah, but it does. I mean
Speaker 1: I didn't do stand up for that for a long
Speaker 1: time because of that. So I was like, what a
Speaker 1: low impulse, the same impulse I get when I get
Speaker 1: these gale force approval And I'm like, oh, I love it.
Speaker 1: But what a hungry hippo I am for wanting this,
Speaker 1: you know. But meanwhile everybody wants approval. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, like does Chappelle ever, I just can't imagine him,
Speaker 1: Like he gets these critics and I feel that instead
Speaker 1: of shame, he uses it as fuel. He's like he's
Speaker 1: like that my next one, I'm going to like take
Speaker 1: them on specifically, you know. Yeah, So here's some cognitive distortions.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna send you a book by my friend Seth
Speaker 1: Gillahan that's coming out soon called Mindful CBT. I'll just
Speaker 1: send you that book because so it'll help you like
Speaker 1: change your cognitive distortions. But like I imagine you have
Speaker 1: black and white thinking, right, So, like I actually have
Speaker 1: examples for each of these in terms of the way
Speaker 1: I used to think about women, which was holding me back.
Speaker 1: So if I get rejected by this woman, I'm a
Speaker 1: total loser in life. That's so black and white, right,
Speaker 1: It's like if you know, that's like totally you're either
Speaker 1: a loser or you're not. You know what I mean
Speaker 1: is that, Yeah, you're black and white thinking catastrophied. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly for forty five minutes, it's a referendum.
Speaker 1: If she doesn't like you, If that girl doesn't like you,
Speaker 1: it's because there's something inherent in you that no woman
Speaker 1: will like exactly. The other one is catastrophizing. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a former catastrophizing, and it's I'm a huge catastroizer anyway.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, Larry David used to do a and
Speaker 1: it's not it's a joke. It's a funny anecdote, but
Speaker 1: I think it's a based and true thing, which is
Speaker 1: he used to be a cab driver a taxi driver
Speaker 1: in New York and he's like, when I didn't have
Speaker 1: a fair, I just thought, I'm never getting another fair
Speaker 1: again for as long as I live. No, it's like
Speaker 1: I'll teach a class at you know, I'm a professor.
Speaker 1: I'll teach a class and like, I'll have like ninety
Speaker 1: nine percent positive comments. And if one student's like he
Speaker 1: thinks hees a lot funnier than he really is, I'd
Speaker 1: be like, I'm never telling a joke ever again in
Speaker 1: my life in class, but yeah, fine, then I want yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like one student, right, yeah, no, I totally get it. Minimizing.
Speaker 1: Do you undervalue positive events when they happen? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: will minimize. I will. It's like yeah, but oh yeah,
Speaker 1: but it I'll contextualize it in a bigger picture all
Speaker 1: that stuff for sure, Or that's an aberration, like well
Speaker 1: I did that well, but false of hopelessness, like being like,
Speaker 1: oh well, there's no point in approaching her anyway, I'll
Speaker 1: probably just come across as shady. You know that. That's
Speaker 1: just an example of like just this false sense of hopelessness.
Speaker 1: Personalizing attributing the outcome of a situation as solely the
Speaker 1: result of one's actions or behaviors. She said she has
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, she must be saying that because she really
Speaker 1: is not interested in me and was probably repulsed by me,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like personalizing someone's response. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: will have you know, when my agents are they'll be like,
Speaker 1: do you want to try to do that? I'm like,
Speaker 1: he hates me, don't bother. I saw him. I saw
Speaker 1: him Chipotle. He was weird. And they have to go like, wait,
Speaker 1: what now is this real? Or are you just a man?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know. I'm just telling you.
Speaker 1: I'm almost always right about these things. I will say
Speaker 1: I am generally right about my suspicions of like he
Speaker 1: doesn't respect me, and I can just you know, tell
Speaker 1: shoulding thinking the way we want things to turn out
Speaker 1: is how they ought to have turned out. This person
Speaker 1: should have liked me. It seems so meant to be.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's it's so core. It's not even it's
Speaker 1: in the hardware, it's not even software. It's like I
Speaker 1: was saying last night that that to a friend of mine,
Speaker 1: like I'll explained something. I was like, it's so fundamentally
Speaker 1: unfair that I can't. She's like, why do you think
Speaker 1: things are going to be fair? And I was like, right,
Speaker 1: because they're supposed to be fair. Like what's the point
Speaker 1: of anything if it's not gonna be fair? Or when
Speaker 1: people don't have a code, or like what are we
Speaker 1: friends for if you're not gonna do X. She's like,
Speaker 1: you just have to look past that stuff, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: look past it to what? Or when people say we
Speaker 1: need to like get beyond this, it's like, yeah, but
Speaker 1: if we get beyond it, you still did that, and
Speaker 1: I know that you did that, So what's the purpose?
Speaker 1: What are we getting beyond it to a shittier, shallower relationship?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I wonder if we did like have
Speaker 1: treatment for this, if you would be less f I
Speaker 1: really am deeply curious the extent to which these things
Speaker 1: are bound up. I mean, again, it's so like I said,
Speaker 1: it's so in the in my in some some ways,
Speaker 1: my jokes are a distortion, but most of my jokes
Speaker 1: are just a logic test in some ways in a
Speaker 1: lot of ways, or like a very good metaphor, which
Speaker 1: is a form of logic. I was reading some of
Speaker 1: the comments on Twitter about your show, and people were
Speaker 1: writing they thought it was brilliant and they loved it
Speaker 1: because of its realness and it's it's authenticity. So let's
Speaker 1: not let's make sure we're not denigrating that aspect of
Speaker 1: what makes makes it awesome. I think I'm good, like
Speaker 1: very good. Yeah. Yeah, but as a COVID narcissist, you
Speaker 1: know how I feel about it. I don't buy that
Speaker 1: thing of like if you get healthy, you'll be less
Speaker 1: fun I don't buy that, yeah, because I've gotten healthier
Speaker 1: and funnier. Good, Well, just a couple more, because I
Speaker 1: think we basically know you have this hard jumping to conclusions,
Speaker 1: feeling certain of the meaning of a situation despite little
Speaker 1: evidence to support that conclusion. Like I call that being
Speaker 1: a white man. Yeah, uh, I called that. I used
Speaker 1: to do a bit with Dave called late Arriving Instant
Speaker 1: Expert mm hmmm, where I can walk up to it's
Speaker 1: like being a white Man's almost like being a doctor,
Speaker 1: where like I think, I know what's happening. I'm a
Speaker 1: white man, you're doing it, and it's just like Okay.
Speaker 1: I wanted to do a thing where I went to
Speaker 1: like CBS and just told the employees they could go
Speaker 1: on break and see if they did it, just as like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm a white man, you can go on break and
Speaker 1: then being like all right, and then they just go
Speaker 1: on break. I've never thought of it through that lens,
Speaker 1: through a racial lens, but that's really interesting. You got
Speaker 1: to where that's where the good stuff is. That's where
Speaker 1: the good stuff is. Okay, how about the last one
Speaker 1: for this because I have a longer list, but I'm
Speaker 1: going to send you this book so we don't need
Speaker 1: to do a complete treatment in this hour. But the
Speaker 1: last one I have here is I feel like maybe
Speaker 1: this is this is a real source of a lot
Speaker 1: of your own happiness, and that's it's called outsourcing happiness,
Speaker 1: so making outside factors the ultimate arbiter of her happiness,
Speaker 1: Like I can't be happy in life unless I dot
Speaker 1: dot dot. Yeah, obviously that's a huge I'd argue that's
Speaker 1: a huge problem for every everybody and it's kind of
Speaker 1: the basis of capitalism. Mm hmm, but true, that's true
Speaker 1: consumer capitalism, consumer capitalism, yeah, yeah, consumer society. Sure. However,
Speaker 1: whatever whatever clinical terms you want to put on. So yeah,
Speaker 1: like I definitely have have had to recalibrate. It's very
Speaker 1: hard to to make it manifest deeply. But you know,
Speaker 1: going like I hope that I become a well known
Speaker 1: comedian because I think then I'll be happy. So I'm
Speaker 1: doing comedy to be happy. And I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a there's a step in here. You could just
Speaker 1: omit and you could just be happy, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? I want to make or I won't be
Speaker 1: happy unless I accomplish X. And it's like or again,
Speaker 1: just be happy. Do you practice mindfulness at all? Make
Speaker 1: the decision to be happy? You know? Do you do?
Speaker 1: You meditate it all? Yeah? I do? And as I
Speaker 1: was saying that, I like as a reminder, like I
Speaker 1: haven't in a couple of days, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of value to it, and I know
Speaker 1: there is. I physically feel better in my body after
Speaker 1: So what have you tried? You talk about this in
Speaker 1: your in your you know you've tried some You've tried
Speaker 1: some drugs. Yeah, I've triedoft, Zoloft, Modafanel, pros act and
Speaker 1: like what's the one begins with an M. I think
Speaker 1: I've tried probably five medications, five or six. Uh. Some worked,
Speaker 1: some didn't, some worked and expired. Some some I took
Speaker 1: and then I felt like it and needed any more.
Speaker 1: I take beta blockers now when I'm going to do
Speaker 1: a big stand up show, and I find them really helpful.
Speaker 1: Like they don't take there seems to be no downside,
Speaker 1: an all upside because I was getting panic attacks at
Speaker 1: one point before I went on or while I was
Speaker 1: on stage. Pretty great. I done EMDR, which I found
Speaker 1: helpful in a way that I couldn't quite put my
Speaker 1: finger on. But like the irony is I've tried somatic therapy.
Speaker 1: The irony is when I did EMDR, my I like
Speaker 1: trusted the therapist so much that it brought out sematic
Speaker 1: sort of. There's a cut to me in the special
Speaker 1: where I say, like I tried therapy and like my
Speaker 1: shoulders like fucking like sort of pulsating. That's because it
Speaker 1: was like a sematic expression because I trusted the therapist. Ketamine.
Speaker 1: Didn't like ketamine. I know people that really like it.
Speaker 1: It's I just didn't like it. Did it five times,
Speaker 1: I think, and then TMS transcrenting on my netic stimulation,
Speaker 1: which I liked a lot, and then I did a
Speaker 1: Chinese one that's which I also liked. In terms of
Speaker 1: the output. Are you aware of what exactly part of
Speaker 1: the brain they turned down the electricity on, so to speak?
Speaker 1: Like do you know what they targeted? I think they
Speaker 1: activated the electricity in this area whatever, Like okay, so
Speaker 1: you're in that latitude. Yeah, that's what's most curly with happiness. Yeah,
Speaker 1: your left prefontal cortex. Yeah yeah yeah. And then ayahuasca
Speaker 1: I did, and you saw God. Ayauasca was beautiful. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean I was an atheist before and my fourth
Speaker 1: ayahuasca I was like, oh, okay, I believe in God.
Speaker 1: No sorry, not even four third third ceremony of believed
Speaker 1: in God. By the ninth ceremony, I was sort of
Speaker 1: like doing weird bodily motions that I wasn't in shar
Speaker 1: in control of. I don't it's somatic. It's like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to say spirit based, but that's my suspicion.
Speaker 1: I have really beautiful experienced hard make no mistake, very difficult,
Speaker 1: some really bad experiences, but in the aggregate, really amazing.
Speaker 1: And then and I talked about this in the special
Speaker 1: in blocks on Netflix five me O, d MT Bufo,
Speaker 1: al various, too far, too much, took me five months
Speaker 1: to recover, had a reactivation a week after I did it.
Speaker 1: That lasted five months, and was I was drowning on incomprehensibility.
Speaker 1: My mind was drowning. You don't want that. When I
Speaker 1: when I did it, I had the Michael Pollen experience
Speaker 1: that he did it and had the same experience. He
Speaker 1: said it was the only one of the play medicines
Speaker 1: he did that he couldn't figure out the value of
Speaker 1: or get anything. I in some ways I agree with him.
Speaker 1: But he went to a place that he referred to
Speaker 1: us before the Big Bang, which is exactly where I went.
Speaker 1: I was in a land before It wasn't a land.
Speaker 1: I was in a consciousness before time. I didn't know anything.
Speaker 1: I didn't know direction, I didn't know breathing, I didn't
Speaker 1: know sight, I didn't know for time itself. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: felt like I formed the first sineps, not in human history,
Speaker 1: but just like I remember going like it was such
Speaker 1: a crazy experience. It's hard to even talk about. I
Speaker 1: couldn't talk about it because it was so traumatized for
Speaker 1: a few months. But now I find it. It's hard
Speaker 1: to explain because there's contradictions within it. I mean, like
Speaker 1: where it's like I formed the first sinep, but it's like,
Speaker 1: but how do you remember that? You know? Like, what
Speaker 1: do you mean you form that? You clearly? I remember
Speaker 1: thinking God's I remember hearing or experiences like God's not
Speaker 1: here yet. Stuff like, you know, insane realm. How does
Speaker 1: this stuff? Insane real? Well? Being on here on earth
Speaker 1: knowing that I'm a part of a bigger thing is helpful.
Speaker 1: It makes life, I mean, in some ways it might
Speaker 1: help the the the the covert, the what do you
Speaker 1: call generous narciss, wonderful narciss vulnerable. Yet it may help
Speaker 1: that in that it makes things less important, makes things
Speaker 1: less like do or die not unimportant, not it's not nihilism,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly a lot of perspective. And that's helpful,
Speaker 1: really helpful. And I'll say that I'm my brain is
Speaker 1: different the way I comparence because of d MT in ayahuasca.
Speaker 1: My brain is different, which is a huge, a huge thing. Now,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it again if you offer me one
Speaker 1: billion dollars or a bee. Wouldn't do it again. Wouldn't
Speaker 1: like no, thank you. I cannot endure that. The thing
Speaker 1: I went through for five months, I cannot endure. I've
Speaker 1: done Iowa, I did ayahuasca two weeks ago, but the
Speaker 1: five meo DMT I cannot personally endure. But it was
Speaker 1: very helpful. Wow. Well, I love that. I love the
Speaker 1: idea that it really helped you, yeah, be part of
Speaker 1: something larger, yeah than even humans. I remember saying in
Speaker 1: therapy and talk therapy like this is in my body.
Speaker 1: I can talk about this endlessly. It's in me. And
Speaker 1: iahuasca and DMT went into it, like got into it
Speaker 1: like it that it like rearranged some of the stuff.
Speaker 1: And that's huge, That is huge, That is huge. Maybe
Speaker 1: it even help. Do you damper put a damper on
Speaker 1: some of these cognitive distortions that are so prevalent in
Speaker 1: your head? Yeah, I think that they reduced them, for sure,
Speaker 1: they made them less, they made them less potent, potent. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're certainly there, and they're certainly like the headline, but
Speaker 1: they're not the nine to eleven headline America attacked. They're
Speaker 1: like Dow down seven hundred points. And that's exactly what
Speaker 1: mindful CBT is, which is a new form of CBT
Speaker 1: that combines the best of mindfulness as well as the
Speaker 1: best of what we know about CBT. So you can
Speaker 1: actually just yeah, somebody suggested mindfulness last night? Love it mindful?
Speaker 1: They did? Did they suggest mindful CBT specifically or just mine? Now? Okay,
Speaker 1: but CBT when I heard, when I read that that
Speaker 1: list of cognitive distortions. It was like, oh, say no more. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that a lot of people are
Speaker 1: saying about this, the my Blox thing is like people
Speaker 1: are like, I felt like you, Like you said exactly
Speaker 1: the way I feel because it's like, there's only so
Speaker 1: many programs that we have mm hm as you you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like what your job is, yeah, is
Speaker 1: to analyze and assess what program people are running and
Speaker 1: try to that's right, figure out a way for them
Speaker 1: to either stop it or optimize it. That's right. Well,
Speaker 1: you're such an interesting cat. You obviously are incredibly successful,
Speaker 1: like having a Netflix special too. You've had two Netflix specials,
Speaker 1: and all the work you've done writing is is so
Speaker 1: impressive that you you clearly deserve the more swagger. But
Speaker 1: what's interesting about you is that swagger would not be
Speaker 1: authentic to who you are, because you do kind of
Speaker 1: you don't like pretense and you don't like you know,
Speaker 1: there's a certain personality of you that in a way,
Speaker 1: just the more you embrace that, the more people actually
Speaker 1: like you. So you're so you're so interesting. The swagger, Well,
Speaker 1: well yeah, you could use more slagger. I could talk
Speaker 1: about this endlessly, but it's people because of the way
Speaker 1: people heard about me or learned about me is I
Speaker 1: was Dave's partner, right right, That's how most people think
Speaker 1: of me. First learned about me, and as Dave's partner.
Speaker 1: The first thought is, there's no fucking way you wrote anything.
Speaker 1: So when I demand they acknowledged that I wrote anything,
Speaker 1: or sort of carry myself like I did the work
Speaker 1: that I did, do they don't. People resent it and like,
Speaker 1: really ben like slag me, and they it becomes a
Speaker 1: racial thing pretty quickly, and like I'm cultural vulturing and
Speaker 1: it's like Dave asked me to do the show, so
Speaker 1: like that, I'm cultural vulturing and I'm pretending to be
Speaker 1: all these things whatever. So I have to kind of
Speaker 1: play it small in that regard because people were like,
Speaker 1: you're so cocky. I'm like, okay, all right, I don't know,
Speaker 1: so so I have to play it small, even though
Speaker 1: I resent them saying that because it's a sign of
Speaker 1: their disrespect, Like you you you're cocky and you shouldn't be.
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, they call confident acknowledging things you've done,
Speaker 1: or cocky is like I did this thing. Stop talking
Speaker 1: about it. Okay, you're going to bring it up, but okay,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of defensive obviously, no, I hear you.
Speaker 1: This is by the way, that's I mean, that's a
Speaker 1: fascinating question. Who deserves to be cocky? I mean no, Look,
Speaker 1: that brings up a lot of other things. But I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone who watches your documentary could possibly leave
Speaker 1: leave it not documentary, listen to me, watch your special
Speaker 1: blocks could possibly leave it thinking you're cocky like you
Speaker 1: lay out. But that's the point of it, The point
Speaker 1: of these specials, The reason I do these, where I'm revealing,
Speaker 1: is because I read to people as cocky in an
Speaker 1: undeserved way. Yeah, cold, superior or bored or like flat affect.
Speaker 1: So part of it is specifically neutralizing that. Like where
Speaker 1: I'm going like, not only am I not cocky? Let
Speaker 1: me bring you into my experience. Yeah, Well, wouldn't it
Speaker 1: be nice to get to a point some day in
Speaker 1: your career where you could just kill it comedically like
Speaker 1: you did the first three fourths without feeling any need
Speaker 1: for apology. I'm gonna go it's for the first four fifths. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you kill the whole thing and then you drop
Speaker 1: the mic and you finally feel complete. Do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like, I feel like that's what we
Speaker 1: need to get you at some days, a point where
Speaker 1: you don't feel a need to less to lessen to
Speaker 1: yourself at all, or to diminish yourself at all. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I hope I'm there, you too, you know me too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well let's leave. Let's leave on that note. It really
Speaker 1: really an honor to talk to you, Neil, and I
Speaker 1: wish you all the best, please yeah, and uh and
Speaker 1: I'll send you some books and stuff I I I
Speaker 1: dare you. Yeah, yeah, well you've got it. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for the help, Brouh, Thank you, thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to react in some way to something you heard, I
Speaker 1: encourage you to join in the discussion at the Psychology
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: We also put up some videos of some episodes on
Speaker 1: our YouTube page as well, so you'll want to check
Speaker 1: that out. Thanks for being such a great supporter of
Speaker 1: the show, and tune in next time for more on
Speaker 1: the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.