1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but we still have 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: an amazing show for you Today. Jesse Wegman stops by 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: to talk about his new book The Lost Founder James 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: Wilson and the Forgotten Fight for a People's Constitution. But 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: first we have doctor Eddie Glad on his new book, 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: America Usa, How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries. Welcome, Welcome, Eddie. 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: Well, it's a pleasure. It's always a pleasure to have 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: a conversation with you. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 3: Molly. 12 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: I'm really thrilled to get to talk to you. So 13 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: this book, and you have written many books. You've written 14 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: a lot of brilliant stuff, and thank you. You're an academic, 15 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: but you're also an academic who is able to talk 16 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: to the rest of us who are not. And so 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: this is a really interesting idea here, America USA, How 18 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: Race Shadows are our nation's anniversary. So it's such a 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: perfect moment for this book, and I'd love you to 20 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: talk about how you got here. 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you. You know I was 22 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: trying to write a book about the contemporary moment, but 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: it was so fluid. Everything was changing with every blink 24 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: of the eye. It looked as if the country was 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: going to hell fast, you know, on speed in some ways, 26 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 2: on speed dial, in some ways, to mix my metaphors. 27 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: And so I was trying to write and nothing was happening. 28 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,919 Speaker 2: And also I was trying to manage my own emotions. 29 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 2: I'm not okay. You know, the country is barreling toward 30 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: whatever it is barreling towards. I was being asked daily 31 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: to interpret it, to say something about it, to comment 32 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: on the state of affairs. And so I'm not Jill Lapore. 33 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 2: So I can't write a two hundred fifty year history 34 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: of the country, seven hundred plus page tone. So I 35 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: was trying to figure out, well, every moment, every present, 36 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: requires a path to account for itself. What does it 37 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: mean for us to be in this moment, in the 38 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: two hundred and fiftieth year of the country. And so 39 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: I decided to look at the other anniversaries and lo 40 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: and behold, with each milestone anniversary, the nation was facing 41 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: its contradiction. It's as if the ghosts had it by 42 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: the nape of the neck and they were screaming in 43 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: its ear. So I decided to use the anniversaries as 44 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: the kind of through line to talk about how we've 45 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: arrived at this moment. 46 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: Now. 47 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: It's such a good frame for this moment, and it 48 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: speaks to sort of the underlying tension that got us 49 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: here right now. Donald Trump doesn't happen without a lot 50 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: of underlying dysfunction. We're at two point fifty here. This 51 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: is the big anniversary, but there are certainly other anniversaries. 52 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure that are the focus here. So could you 53 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: talk us through kind of what that looks like? 54 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 2: Sure? So I looked at the centennial, the one hundredth 55 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: anniversary of the country, the Sesqui centennial one hundred and fiftieth, 56 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: and the bi centennial the two hundredth, and in each 57 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: of these moments we see the country freized, contradictions in 58 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 2: full view, as if we're convulsing at the moment in 59 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: which we have to tell the story about our founding. 60 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: So in eighteen seventy six, of course, this is the 61 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: collapse of reconstruction. Collapse is a bit generous. It's the murder, 62 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: the assassination of reconstruction, and President Grant is going to 63 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: speak and the Dais in Philadelphia, this amazing Philadelphia Exposition. 64 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: This was supposed to be this announcement to the world 65 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 2: of the nation's maturity in the aftermath of the carnage 66 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: of the Civil War, But it turned out to be 67 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: this grand ritual of disremembering, to use Tony Morrison's language, 68 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: the fact that six hundred thousand plus were left dead 69 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: on sea and land was ignored. Custer's defeat basically ignored 70 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: the reason for all of this carnage, placed to the 71 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: side as the country celebrated its wealth, its ingenuity, its creativity, 72 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: and innovation. And you know, there's this wonderful example, Molly 73 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: of Frederick Douglass, perhaps the most famous American at the time, 74 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: certainly the most famous order in the country. He's trying 75 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: to enter the exposition because he has actually a ticket 76 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: to be on the Dais with the president. A Philadelphia 77 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: police officer says, there's no way in inward to be 78 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: on the Dais with President Graham and refused to let 79 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: him in. And if it wasn't for a senator who 80 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: saw his big white mane, he would have never made 81 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: it to the Dais. But then when he got to 82 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: the Dais. They refused to let him speak, so black 83 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: folkward basically disappeared in the eighteen seventy six celebration. Fast 84 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: forward fifty years later, nineteen twenty six. And this usually 85 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: we think of the twenties as you know, the Roaring twenties. 86 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: Only the United States would say Roaring twenties after the 87 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: mass death of the Spanish flu, right, But you have 88 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: the Roaring twenties. This is the jazz Age, the period 89 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 2: of the Charleston you know, American excess as it were. 90 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: But this is really the decade of the Klan. 91 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 3: You know. 92 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: The Klan was reborn in nineteen fifteen, two years after 93 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 2: the fiftieth anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in nineteen thirteen, 94 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: and the Klan took as its mantra America first, I 95 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: mean was it was. It embraced amrit true Americanism, right, 96 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 2: and it was really responding to the mass immigration from 97 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: Europe of these folk who were not of Nordic stock. 98 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: So they were really concerned about these Jewish folk, these 99 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: Irish Catholics whose loyalty were to the pope, and these 100 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: swarthy looking people from Italy and the like. These were 101 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: from s whole countries in Europe, as it were, and 102 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 2: so the Klan was really really nativest in this moment. 103 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: Of course, it was deeply violent towards black folk, but 104 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: you have its seminal achievement. The seminal achievement of the 105 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: KKK during this period is the Johnson Reid Immigration and 106 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: Nationality Act of nineteen twenty four, which set national quotas. 107 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: That piece of legislation was basically written by the Klan, 108 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: and in nineteen twenty five nineteen twenty the Klan marches 109 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: in Washington, d C. Thousands of them. In fact, they 110 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 2: contend Molly that if it wasn't for their vote, Calvin 111 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 2: Coolidge would never have been elected. About six percent of 112 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 2: the American population as part of its membership. But more 113 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: than that, more than people wearing hoods and sheets and 114 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: the like, the Klan represented a kind of common sense. 115 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: And so in nineteen twenty six you have this startling moment. 116 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 2: Not only it was going to be in Philadelphia. They 117 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: were going to hold the exposition, the celebration of the country, 118 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,840 Speaker 2: they were going to celebrate the flag, and they had 119 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: agreed to allow the Klan to hold its annual convention 120 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: at the same time. They were going to celebrate the 121 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: flag and burn across on the same day. I mean, 122 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 2: you can't get a more stark representation of the divided 123 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 2: soul of the country. Fast forward another you know to 124 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six. The children and grandchildren of those Europeans 125 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 2: who were seen as infestations, those they're now white ethnics, 126 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 2: and they're celebrating the founding as their own. They are 127 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: the revolutionary class, right, the inheritors of the revolution's legacy. 128 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: And nineteen seventy six is so burdened with the conflict 129 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: in the country, you know, Vietnam, Watergate, Black Power, the 130 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: Women's movement, the radicalization of the student's movement. So the 131 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: bi centennial bore the burden of really positing this kind 132 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: of national unity and this sense of consensus. But the 133 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: nation underneath that effort was this roiling chaos. And you 134 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: can see it very clearly in the bussing controversy in Boston. 135 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: And so I used this startling image of Stanley Foreman 136 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: old soiling, old glory when a young white teenager attacks 137 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: ted Landsmark with the American flag in an anti bussing protest. 138 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: And so here you have these moments of celebration telescoping 139 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: for us the divided soul of the nation. 140 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: I'd love you to talk about this moment and how 141 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: it relates to nineteen seventy six. 142 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: Let me say, what's wonderful about the nineteen seventy six 143 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: by centennial, besides the fact that I was seven years 144 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: old and I was wearing red, white and blue pants, 145 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: was that it celebrated America's diversity. It tried in so 146 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: many ways to incorporate the difference that made us who 147 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: we are. Secretary Bunch described it as a celebration of 148 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: white ethnic America in many ways. And this is the 149 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: first time. In nineteen seventy six, President Ford acknowledge a 150 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: Black History Month. In nineteen twenty six, Negro History Week 151 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: was founded. In nineteen seventy six, Negro History Week became 152 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: Black History Month, and President Ford inaugurated the ritual where 153 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: presidents would acknowledge, you know, Black History Month in nineteen 154 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: seventy six. It came with costs, but there was this 155 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 2: effort not to ignore Black folk, but to absorb our 156 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 2: story as part of the narrative of a more perfect union. Well, today, 157 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 2: Donald Trump and his folk, they reject more perfect union talk. Altogether, 158 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: they loathe any idea that the country is not, in 159 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: so many ways already perfected. And JD. Van's on July fifth, 160 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, delivered a talk Miley, I think you 161 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: remember this. It took up the news cycle for a 162 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: couple of days, but he gave this talk at the 163 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: Claremont Instane where he said America can't just simply be 164 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 2: an idea. The Creed is not sufficient for national sovereignty 165 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: or national cohesion. He basically delivered at that institute a 166 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: blood and soil speech that was at the heart of 167 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: national sovereignty, was at the heart of the American project. 168 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: Is this idea of blood and soil? And I want 169 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: to say that it wasn't just JD. Vance channeling his 170 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 2: white nationalists sensibilities. That particular view of the country we 171 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: can trace back to the founding. There are all these 172 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: echoes of nineteen twenty six. You know, there's a reason 173 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: why Hitler looked to the United States for an example. 174 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: We didn't look to him. He looked to us. And 175 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 2: there is this decidedly Anglo saxonism, white Anglo Saxonism, this 176 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: nativism that defined the nineteen twenty six sequent centennial and 177 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: Calvin Coolidge delivered his address, and in effect he said, 178 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: we don't need but one revolution, and our revolution was 179 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: not like the Russian revolution. He suggested. Our revolution was 180 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: conservatives at its root. It simply gave voice to enduring 181 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: metaphysical principles and all. Our only task, Coolidge, insisted, was 182 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: to remember and to restore. That's it. No more perfect 183 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: union talk at all, Just to remember and restore. 184 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: Its interesting because like, I always want to be the 185 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: optimist here or there, optimistic things about this moment, despite 186 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: how much it is a bleak. 187 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know I'm not an optimist. 188 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: Mom. 189 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: You know, there's this distinction that Ryan hold Nieber makes 190 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: between the theologian Ryan Hold Nieber. You see here I'm 191 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: being an egghead, being my nerdy self. 192 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: No, I love it. I'm delighted to get to learn stuff. 193 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 194 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 2: So Ryan Hold Neiber makes this distinction between optimism and hope, 195 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: and they're not the same. You know, I tend to 196 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: think of optimism and in some ways this is an 197 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: echo of his position, more like you know Voltaire's can 198 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: be This is pangloss. Everything is the best of all 199 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 2: possible worlds. Right. Hope is different hope that orients itself 200 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: to the world in all of its ugliness. Right, It 201 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 2: doesn't guarantee outcomes. It's not a guarantee that everything is 202 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 2: going to be better. This is not the best of 203 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: all possible worlds. Hope is that you know, given depending 204 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: upon what we do right, matters could be otherwise. And 205 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 2: so you know, it's a blue soaked hope for me, 206 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: and that blue soak to hope is that the world 207 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 2: is nasty. Human beings can be monstrous, but there are 208 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: occasions for the breakthrough of miracles. And the question for 209 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: us is what are the conditions for the miraculous to emerge? 210 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 2: And for me, what I'm trying to do in this 211 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: book is to follow the lead of one of my students, Molly. 212 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 2: You would have loved her, just joyous from Texas neuroscience major. 213 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: She's writing on writing her final paper on Baldwin, James 214 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: Baldwin's work from Notes of a Native Son all the 215 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: way to the Evidence of Things Not Seen, And you know, 216 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 2: Baldwin had her on the road. She would come into 217 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 2: my office. She would cry, as a black woman, African 218 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: American woman, and she would cry and she would I 219 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: don't know if I want a white boyfriend anymore. I mean, 220 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: Baldwin had her on the ropes. But she wrote this 221 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: sentence that was so instructive. Every time I think about it, 222 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: it brings me the tears. She says, perhaps hope is 223 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: not what we reach for here, but maybe something more last, 224 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: just as lasting, and that is to tell the truth 225 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: carried with love but lit with rage. And so my 226 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 2: task in this moment and in this book is not 227 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: to give us a kind of hopeful or optimistic blueprint, 228 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: but simply to bear witness to how we've arrived to now. 229 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to know why you're talking about her 230 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: in the past times, do I? 231 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: No, No, No, she's here. She's just graduated. She graduated 232 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 2: from Princeton, so she's off again. 233 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect, Okay, good, yes, yes, excellent. Yeah. I think 234 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: it's a really good point. Now, I want to get 235 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: into something that is my particular interest, which is du Bois. 236 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: And I say this because he was a friend of 237 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: my grandfather's, but also because I would love you to 238 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: talk about how some of the people that Communism was 239 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: used against them in a way to erase their legacies 240 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: or to try and raise their legacies. 241 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the nineteen fifties, du Bois was arrested as 242 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: an agent of a foreign principle. He was caught up 243 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: in the Red Scare in both phases of it, and 244 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: they took his passport, and eventually he gave up his 245 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: citizenship and repatriated to Taghana and died there. But you know, 246 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 2: the conceit of the book is this ongoing conversation, this 247 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: ongoing engagement with the boys in between each chapter on 248 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: the celebrations, on the centennials or the commemorations. Are these 249 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: kind of telescoped, condensed history chapters that try to mimic 250 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: in some ways the way which du Boys read wrote history. 251 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: But at the heart of it is this claim Dubois. 252 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: In nineteen oh three, Mallie wrote The Souls of Black 253 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: Folk published The Souls of Black Folk, and in that text, 254 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: a book that William James described as per perhaps one 255 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: of the most important books published in that year, he 256 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: said that black people suffered from a kind of double consciousness, 257 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 2: that we see ourselves through the eyes of those who 258 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: despise us. And this is his way of trying to 259 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: capture this doubleness that we were in. But not of 260 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: that we were simultaneously African and American, and what would 261 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: we do with this twoeness. Well, I was thinking about that, 262 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: and I was like, well, no, no, no, no. This double 263 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: consciousness is actually a consequence of something more fundamental, and 264 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: that is the divided soul of the nation. America experiences 265 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: a kind of double consciousness. It imagines itself at once 266 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: as a beacon of freedom and as a white republic. 267 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: And you can't hold those two claims together without contradiction, 268 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: without depositing a kind of madness at the heart of 269 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: the country. And that madness evidences itself in these cycles. 270 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: What I use coming from the poet, I take from 271 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: the poet Gwendolen Brooks this whip of the whorldwind that 272 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 2: we find ourselves in regeneration because we have yet to 273 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: grapple with this, this division, this doubleness that's at the 274 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: heart of who we take ourselves to be. 275 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: I want you to talk about Paul Robson because this 276 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: story is I feel like it is a little bit 277 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: relevant to Dubois, though not the same at all. 278 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: Oh No, he's a student of Dubois. And you know, 279 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: there's this sense in which both du Bois and Robeson 280 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 2: are looking for a different way of imagining African American politics, 281 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: to understand the relationship between race, racism, and the movement 282 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: of capital. Both caught up in the horrors of the 283 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 2: Cold War and the Red Scare, Robeson has denied his 284 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: ability to make a living. They take his passport too, 285 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: and he passes away in so many ways, in obscurity 286 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: and in poverty. But you know, du Bois has a 287 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: long career in public life. But they also represent Molly 288 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: this moment in African American politics where it's not just 289 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: simply a debate within the confines of the Democratic Party 290 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: or within the confines of American liberalism. They're reaching for 291 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: other vocabularies, other ways of thinking about black politics. Robes 292 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: And are part of the Council on African Affairs, looking 293 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: at the diaspora, looking at the globe, understanding the relationship 294 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: between the conditions of people of color around the world 295 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 2: and the movement of capital and the movement of empire 296 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: and the like. So du Bois and robes And, as 297 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: well as Lorraine Hansbury, they're all connected in this very 298 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: interesting way to a history that's often rendered invisible. And 299 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: this goes back to the book, because in order to 300 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: absorb African American history post nineteen seventy six, a lot 301 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: of that history has to be redacted. You have to 302 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 2: lop off certain parts of it. So Robesin has to disappear. 303 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: Du Boys at a certain stage of his life has 304 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 2: to disappear. Black power has to disappear. Everything has to 305 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: lead toward you know, Obama. Everything has to be an 306 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: argument right that affins, you know, the inherent goodness of 307 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: the American nation state. But if you take the fullness 308 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 2: of black history interview, something much more complicated comes to mind. 309 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: So I read this thing in Victor Navaski's book about 310 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: how if you were a black celebrity during the black List, 311 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: you were forced to disavow Robeson as a communist. Is 312 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: that true? And can you explain a little bit about that? 313 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: Of course? And you know, you know, the thing that 314 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: you know about intimately within your own family narrative is 315 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 2: not just limited to the broader culture. It's specific folk 316 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 2: were making choices. Think about it. The Boys was arrested 317 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,479 Speaker 2: as an agent of a foreign principle, and literally his 318 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: books were taken off shelves at historically black collegists like 319 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: Morehouse and Lincoln and Fisk. The boys had to be 320 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 2: rediscovered in the Black Power era. The man who died 321 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: on the eve of the March on Washington, he had 322 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: to be rediscovered represented to the nation. And there were 323 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 2: all of these folk who had to pass the litmus test. Right, 324 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 2: you had to condemn Robeson, you had to condemn Dubois, 325 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: you had to condemn anyone who was associated with the left. 326 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 2: And so you get this interesting transition. I mean, our 327 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: major writers. Just give you two examples, Ralph Ellison and 328 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 2: Richard Wright both made their way through the Communist Party, 329 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: but on the opposite end, you know, Ralph Ellison becomes, 330 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: you know, a defender of the Vietnam War and a 331 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 2: flat carrying patriot despite his genius. 332 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: It's so interesting, I mean, it's just so interesting. And 333 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: it ultimately Robeson becomes a victim of this right. 334 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 2: Of course, like so many others, you know that that period. 335 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: We tend to tell the story of African American history 336 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: in our current days, the arc of which lands with 337 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 2: of course Obama's election. We start with, you know, the 338 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: founding of the civil rights organizations, whether it's the National 339 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 2: Council of Negro Women to NAACP to the National Urban League, 340 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: and then we jumped from there. Somebody might mention the 341 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 2: Garvey movement in the Harlem Renaissance, but we jumped from 342 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: that period to nineteen fifty four with Brown v. Board. 343 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 2: And then we go from Brown v Board to nineteen 344 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: sixty with the you know, fifty five, really fifty four 345 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: to fifty five, the Montgomery Improvement Association boycott in nineteen sixty, 346 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 2: with the student sit ins nineteen sixty three, the March 347 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: on Washington nineteen sixty four, nineteen sixty five, Civil Rights Act, 348 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 2: voting rights ack cell me Alabama. Then we jump to 349 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: King's murder in sixty eight of April. We skip over 350 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: the period where to boys and robes and at their best. 351 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: It's almost as if it requires redaction. We have to 352 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: erase that moment of you know, when black America is 353 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: thinking very complexly about the relationship between labor, race and empire. 354 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 2: That gets disappeared in our stories, and it certainly doesn't 355 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: appear in the very ways in which President Obama narrates 356 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: the history of our struggle in the country. 357 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting and so important. It's varying. This story 358 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: is much more nuanced than it's than it's painted to be. 359 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, and you know, part of the contemporary moment 360 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: is that, you know, we've seen the narrowing of what 361 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: constitutes legitimate forms of political dissent. And we could tell 362 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 2: a story about the eighty eight Jackson campaign, Jesse Jackson campaign, 363 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: how the Black freedom struggle became the left wing of 364 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party, and the impact of that transition on 365 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: the very ways in which we narrate the history of 366 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: struggle in this country for black people. 367 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting, Eddie, thank you, thank you, thank you. 368 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. And I hope people that find 369 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 2: the book interesting, particularly as we barrel our way to 370 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 2: July fourth. 371 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: Yes, everyone, you buy the book. I'm actually going to 372 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: listen to it because I love an audiobook and I 373 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: see you narrate it, so I'm very excited. 374 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 375 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can hear the music. I commissioned a piece, 376 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: so each chapter begins with bars of music. Oh, this 377 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: is the conceit bars of music. I asked the award 378 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: winning classical composer Joel Thompson to respond to the book 379 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: with a musical score, of course, and the thesis. The 380 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: thesis of the book, you can actually hear it in 381 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: the piece that's entitled Anne Blue, which makes up the 382 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: epigraph of each chapter of the book. 383 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: That's too cool. All right, well, we're all going to 384 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: be listening to it, but hopefully before July fourth. Thank 385 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: you for joining us. 386 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. You take care. 387 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 1: Jesse Wagman is a journalist in New York Times and 388 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: the author of The Lost Founder, James Wilson and the 389 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: Forgotten Fight for People's Constitution. Welcome, Welcome, Jesse. 390 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 3: Thank you. 391 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: So we're talking about the Lost Founder. Who is the 392 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: Lost Founder and why does he matter? 393 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 3: Well, the Lost Founder is James Wilson. 394 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 4: James Wilson was the most democratic of all the American founders. 395 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: He's of course, he's the lost one. 396 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 3: He's the most important founder that you don't know. 397 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 4: I didn't know him before I started writing this book, 398 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 4: which was sort of mortifying to me because I, you know, 399 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 4: went to college, I went to law school. I wrote 400 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 4: about the courts and the law for twelve years at 401 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 4: the New York Times. I thought I was pretty well informed, 402 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 4: but I wasn't a discount. James Wilson was arguably the 403 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 4: most influential of the drafters of the Constitution, and he 404 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 4: was responsible for a lot of the shape of the 405 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,199 Speaker 4: country we live in today, and particularly the degree to 406 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 4: which it is based in popular rule as opposed to 407 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 4: the various barriers to that rule that a lot of 408 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 4: the other founders wanted. 409 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: Why, by the way, does James Wilson matter right now? 410 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: You know, we have this very conservative core that is 411 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: not so interested and popular rule. Why does he matter 412 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: right now? 413 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 4: Wilson, I think is so significant to us today because 414 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 4: he is a reminder that these impulses toward democracy, toward 415 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 4: popular sovereignty, the idea that all political power resides in 416 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 4: the people, that those ideas were there from the beginning. 417 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 4: And to me that was a thrilling realization because when 418 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 4: I think about the Founding, and I think when most 419 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 4: of us think about the Founding, we think of a 420 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 4: bunch of you know, bewigged old white men who didn't 421 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 4: trust the people, who did everything they could to prevent 422 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 4: the people from having a more direct say in their government. 423 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 4: And here's this guy, this Scottish immigrant raised in a 424 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 4: poor farming family in the Lowlands outside Edinburgh, comes over 425 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 4: to America and essentially injects this incredible democratic spirit into 426 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 4: the Revolution. 427 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 3: He's not the only. 428 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 4: One making these arguments, but he's the only one who 429 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 4: pulls them all together into a coherent whole and fights 430 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 4: for popular election of the president, popular election of the Senate, 431 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 4: proportional representation in both houses of Congress. Right, he thinks 432 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 4: the Senate with its state equality, which is what we 433 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 4: live with today, is an abomination. He calls it a 434 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 4: fundamental and perpetual error, and he thinks it's going to 435 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 4: end up destroying America. 436 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 3: It may yet, Yeah. 437 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 4: But I think the reason I got excited by him, 438 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 4: and I think the reason that what I hope will 439 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 4: appeal to readers too, is this this feeling that democracy 440 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 4: as a principle, as a concept, self rule and the 441 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 4: power of the people was there from the very beginning, 442 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 4: and it was there in the mind of one of 443 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 4: the most influential founders of all. 444 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: Do you think there are lessons to be taken from him? 445 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the right has sort of figured out 446 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: a way to have it both ways, but or at 447 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: least this Supreme Court, which is very right learn has 448 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: figured out a way to have it both ways. But 449 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 1: do you think there are lessons here? If he wanted 450 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: to reform American democracy, get. 451 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 3: Rid of the Senate. 452 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Wilson wasn't alone in his despising the 453 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 4: idea of a Senate with equal states, but he certainly 454 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 4: was the most persistent advocate against it at the Constitutional 455 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 4: Convention in Philadelphia in seventeen eighty s. I think, really, 456 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 4: if you want to zero in on something, it is 457 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 4: the importance of majority rule. 458 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 3: You know, Wilson came to this realization very early. 459 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 4: He understood that majority rule is at the heart of 460 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 4: a democratic government, is. 461 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 3: At the heart of a republic. 462 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,239 Speaker 4: And that's because majority rule is the only method of 463 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 4: making decisions that treats everyone as equal. It ensures political equality, 464 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 4: whereas any other form of decision making by definition, treats 465 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 4: people as unequal. Right, supermajorities treat certain votes as worth 466 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 4: more than others. There's times when we want that to 467 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 4: be the case, where the gravity of a certain decision 468 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 4: that we are going to make requires that we reach 469 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 4: a higher threshold. But in most normal politics, majority rule 470 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,239 Speaker 4: has to be the way we decide things. And we 471 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 4: see the violation of majority rule in so many parts 472 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 4: of our government today, which is the electoral college right 473 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 4: that you know, twice in the last twenty five years, 474 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 4: we've elected the candidate who won fewer votes the Senate itself, 475 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 4: which obviously is designed to violate majority rule, but it's 476 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 4: getting worse and worse as more and more people crowd 477 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 4: into fewer and fewer states, so giving those less populated 478 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 4: states far more power per person in the Senate than 479 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 4: the more populous states. Do I think the common statistic 480 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 4: that we hear is California versus Wyoming, right, where California 481 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 4: is roughly eighty times the size of Wyoming, and yet 482 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 4: they share the same number of Senators. So I think 483 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 4: this the violations of majority rule that have led to 484 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 4: a sort of minority rule today is really what we 485 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 4: can I think the essential lesson to take from Wilson's 486 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 4: worldview and the thing that we need to steer back toward, 487 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 4: however we get there. Whether it's eliminating the electoral College, 488 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 4: whether it's proportional representation in Congress, these are all things 489 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 4: that I think we could do profitably to move toward 490 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 4: a country where the majority will wins out. 491 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: Most of the time you've written about the Supreme Court 492 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: since twenty thirteen, it seems like very important couple years. 493 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about a shift you've 494 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: seen in the court and sort of put it in context. 495 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 4: I was born the year that Roe versus Wait was decided, 496 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 4: So in my lifetime, you know, I've seen this arc 497 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 4: of the Court going from establishing a constitutional right for 498 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 4: more than half of the US population to eliminating that right. 499 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 4: I have also lived for the entirety of my life 500 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 4: under a court that had a majority of appointees by 501 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 4: Republican presidents. There has not been a Chief Justice appointed 502 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 4: by a Democratic president since the nineteen forties. All right, 503 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 4: so we're going on nearly one hundred years here of 504 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 4: Republican presidents really getting disproportionate control over the makeup of 505 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 4: the Supreme Court. When I talk about, you know, the 506 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 4: violations that you know, the Court's, you know, violations of 507 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 4: fundamental constitutional principles or of basic rights that we thought 508 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 4: were settled, there's a common knee jerk rejoinder is, oh, 509 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 4: you're just you know, it's sour grapes because you're a 510 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 4: liberal and you just want the outcomes you want. Well, 511 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 4: of course I want the outcomes I want. We all 512 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 4: want the country that we see in our minds. But 513 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 4: I lived for many decades with a court that had 514 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 4: a Republican appointed majority that was very often making decisions 515 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 4: that I didn't agree with. I didn't question the legitimacy 516 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 4: of that court. I was mad sometimes at its rulings, 517 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 4: sometimes I was furious that its rulings, but I didn't 518 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: question it's fundamental legitimacy. What's happened in the last ten years, 519 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 4: and I really think this started. You know, the two 520 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 4: sort of watersheds that I point to are bushby Gore, 521 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 4: which the Court will I don't think ever lived down 522 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 4: as long as it exists. 523 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 3: And then what happened in twenty sixteen with. 524 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 4: Merrick Garland, Barack Obama's third attempted nomination to the Court 525 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 4: and Mitch McConnell and the other Senate Republican's refusal to 526 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 4: even consider him, that I think turned the Court into 527 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 4: something different. It is, of course, it's a political institution. 528 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 4: Of course, the people who sit on it have their 529 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 4: own political views and they can't help but bleed into 530 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 4: their decisions. But what happened with Mitch McConnell and Merrick Garland, 531 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 4: you know, being replaced with Neil Gorsich, and then four 532 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 4: years later adding insult to injury. Ruth Bader Ginsburg dies 533 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 4: and they turn around, violating what they said in twenty 534 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 4: sixteen and put Amy Cony Barrett on the court in 535 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 4: a matter of days. That turned the court into something different. 536 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 4: It turned the Court into an institution that feels like 537 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 4: it's nothing but politics. And that's what we've been seeing 538 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 4: virtually all of the time in the years since, especially 539 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 4: in the Trump age, when the Court seems to be 540 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 4: ratifying almost everything Donald Trump tries to do, with few exceptions. 541 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: It's funny because I think about the nineteen seventy three 542 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: court that decided Roby Wade. That was a very conservative court. 543 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 4: Well, it was also a majority of Republican appointees, and 544 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 4: I think that the vote was seven to two in 545 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 4: that case, and so of course by definition that included 546 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 4: both Democratic and Republican appointees. I'm not sure I would 547 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 4: call it as conservative a court. It certainly wasn't. As 548 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 4: conservative court is the one we have today that was 549 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 4: the tail end of the war in court. I think 550 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 4: it was the Burger Court at that point. But the 551 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 4: Court is by definition a sort of conservative institution right 552 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 4: in many ways it has to be, and that may 553 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 4: be okay, but conservative is one thing in the sense 554 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 4: of conserving you know, precedent, making sure that the law 555 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 4: moves slowly, it doesn't kind of keep reversing on itself. 556 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 4: The Court today is not conservative. It's sort of, in 557 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 4: many ways a reflection of the modern right in America, 558 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 4: which is it is it's radical, it's reactionary, and it 559 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 4: doesn't seem to have any principles other than the continuation 560 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 4: of republican rule. 561 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: You think that immunity decision, which strikes me as sort 562 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: of the most shockingly egregious if I were to think 563 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: of one decision that undermined every I mean, the idea 564 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: that a president could actually just be a king, which 565 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: really was You know, that strikes me as sort of 566 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: the most glaring decision of the last of this modern court. 567 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: Do you think I'm wrong there? 568 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 2: No? 569 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 3: No, I mean, look, there's so much to choose from. 570 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 4: We have an embarrassment of riches here in terms of 571 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 4: awful decisions by this court. The immunity ruling in twenty 572 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 4: twenty four it really is, I mean, is breath taking. 573 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 4: And it's both in the substance of the ruling but 574 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 4: also in the method that the Court used to get 575 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 4: there the substance. Obviously, we fought a war of independence 576 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 4: precisely not to have a ruler who was above the law. 577 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 4: And this court essentially twisted it turned things inside out 578 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 4: and gave Trump and in theory future presidents. Though forgive 579 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 4: my cynicism, it's hard for me to see how the 580 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 4: current court would ever countenance this sort of behavior that 581 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 4: Trump is engaged in from a democratic president. 582 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 3: Put that aside from the moment. 583 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 4: The fact that they essentially crowned the president with these 584 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 4: sorts of immunities, almost kingly immunities, is horrible enough. But 585 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 4: to do so in such a way that's so completely 586 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 4: divorced from the language, the text of the Constitution, the 587 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 4: history of the Constitutional Convention and the adoption of it, 588 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 4: the debates that were held, like every single part of 589 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 4: this in theory should be you know, auguring the other way. 590 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 4: Because these justices claim that they are guided by history 591 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 4: and by tradition and by originalism. Right, this is the 592 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 4: this is their claim to fame. It's not none of 593 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 4: it's true, Right, this is all a cover for the importation, 594 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 4: the smuggling in of right wing policy preferences under this 595 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 4: guise of you know, supposed neutrality and principled jurisprudence. But 596 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 4: like that ruling Trump versus the United States, I think 597 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 4: just gave the game away. 598 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 3: But there's a lot of other bad ones. 599 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 4: There's the ruling that said they can't do anything about 600 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 4: partisan jerrymandering, which has put us in that sort of 601 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 4: death spiral we're in now. 602 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: I was hoping we could talk about the Voting Rights 603 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: Act because that strikes me as the sort of legacy 604 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: of John Roberts. 605 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 4: Look, we've known this was coming from the beginning. John 606 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 4: Roberts has been gunning for the Voting Rights Act for 607 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 4: more than four decades. 608 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 3: Right. 609 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 4: He was a twenty somethingter lawyer in the Reagan Justice 610 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 4: Department in the early eighties, writing memos. He had clerked 611 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 4: for then Chief Justice Ranquist, who was also quite hostile 612 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 4: to not just the Voting Rights Act, but to brown 613 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 4: be Board of Education. You know, John Roberts comes out 614 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 4: of that tradition. He has this extremely naive view of 615 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 4: a quote unquote color blind constitution. 616 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: Right. 617 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 4: His famous line in this line of cases is the 618 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 4: way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is 619 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 4: stop just to stop discriminating on the basis of race, which. 620 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 3: Is about. 621 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 4: Forgive me for the word, but it's white privilege embodied, 622 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 4: you know, like the idea that that's the solution to 623 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 4: our you know, centuries old problem of racial discrimination, which 624 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 4: is reroooted in the practice of hundreds of years of 625 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 4: human bondage is just laughable. So Roberts comes in, you know, 626 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 4: he joins the court and this isn't there's no secret, right. 627 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 3: He's asked about this at his confirmation. 628 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 4: Hearings, and you know, he claims that he's going to 629 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 4: follow precedent and that he respects, you know, the behavior 630 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 4: of Congress. He respects the decisions of Congress, the laws 631 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 4: passed by Congress. But as we've seen, starting with you know, 632 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 4: going back to two thousand and nine in the case 633 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 4: out of Texas, followed by the case in twenty thirteen 634 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 4: Shelby County, followed by the case Bernovich in twenty I 635 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 4: think twenty twenty one, followed by the last nail in 636 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 4: the coffin, which was the Calais case a few weeks ago. 637 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 3: You see this evolution of the. 638 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 4: Roberts Court taking apart perhaps the greatest single piece of 639 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 4: federal legislation in American history. 640 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 3: Certainly the most consequential. 641 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: Something people have died for, people have died for. 642 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 4: And I think what was so offensive about it is, again, 643 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 4: it's not just the substance of it, it's the manner 644 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 4: in which they did it. They looked at a law 645 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 4: that had been not just passed by Congress, but reauthorized 646 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 4: by Congress I think five four or five times, overwhelming 647 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 4: bipartisan majorities in every case. Is there a greater example 648 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 4: of popular sovereignty in action? Again, to go back to 649 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 4: my man, James Wilson. You know, Wilson, like most of 650 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 4: the Founders, believed Congress was the closest body to the 651 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 4: people and that its actions represented the people better than 652 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 4: any of the other branches of government. 653 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 3: They should be. 654 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 4: They are entitled to some respect for their decisions. When 655 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 4: Congress passes a law and then reauthorizes it, and reauthorizes 656 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 4: it again and again and again, all with bipartisan majorities, 657 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 4: that is entitled to a great degree of respect by 658 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 4: the other branches of government. Instead, the court mocked that reauthorization. 659 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 4: Antonin Scalia actually made fun of the fact that the 660 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 4: Voting Rights Act had been reauthorized in two thousand and 661 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 4: six by a unanimous vote in the Senate ninety eight zero. 662 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 3: It was reauthorized. 663 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 4: Okay, does anything ever get a ninety eight to zero vote? 664 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 4: He used that against it. He did this weird sort 665 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 4: of Fox News jiu jitsu where he used the strength 666 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 4: of the case against it and he said, oh, well, 667 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 4: how could anybody vote against something called the Voting Rights Act? 668 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 3: It's such a nice name, you know. 669 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 4: I mean, it's so offensive given that this as you say, 670 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 4: people fought and died for the right to vote, and 671 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 4: in our lifetimes. This isn't old history. This isn't the 672 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 4: Civil War. This is literally the nineteen sixties into the 673 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 4: nineteen seventies and eighties. So I think this court is 674 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 4: so disrespectful of the basic principles of popular sovereignty and 675 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 4: of democratic self rule. 676 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 3: And it's not going to change anytime soon. 677 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so dark. So what was something that we 678 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: don't know about? This founding father? 679 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 4: James Wilson wrote the first draft of the Constitution, you 680 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 4: know the other founders during the summer of seventeen eighty seven. 681 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 3: They took a. 682 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,919 Speaker 4: Break in the middle of the summer. They go home, 683 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 4: they go visit their families, they go do business. Wilson 684 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 4: stays on with a small committee of delegates, and he 685 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 4: literally sits down and writes the first draft of the Constitution. 686 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 4: And it's Wilson who adds these immortal words, we the 687 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 4: people right. And he did that very specifically. He understood 688 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 4: the people to be the essence of all political authority 689 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 4: in the country, and he wanted to make sure their 690 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 4: name was at the front of our national charter so 691 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 4: that we would never forget who was in charge. 692 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,919 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, Jesse, thanks for having me. 693 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 694 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 695 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 696 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 697 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.