WEBVTT - NO LIMIT, Some AI… Poker’s Documentary-Gate 0:00:15.604 --> 0:00:27.684 Pushkin. Welcome back to risky business show about making better decisions. 0:00:27.764 --> 0:00:29.404 I'm Maria Kannakova. 0:00:29.004 --> 0:00:30.764 And I'm Nathaniel Silver. 0:00:32.884 --> 0:00:34.844 You just can't leave it alone. You can't just mean 0:00:34.924 --> 0:00:38.084 Nate Silver. I'm gonna call you Nathaniel. This entire show 0:00:38.244 --> 0:00:39.724 just watched you go to. 0:00:40.244 --> 0:00:44.524 Spend a litle time in Florida and there, Nate, n 0:00:44.564 --> 0:00:48.644 Ate is very often Nae if you have like for 0:00:48.724 --> 0:00:52.604 an example, Aver, so you know, Nathaniel might be might 0:00:52.644 --> 0:00:54.404 be needed in the mix a little bit here. 0:00:55.404 --> 0:00:59.564 All right, Nate, let's uh, let's get going today on 0:00:59.644 --> 0:01:02.204 the show. We have some poker drama. 0:01:02.484 --> 0:01:02.684 Nate. 0:01:02.724 --> 0:01:07.044 We haven't oh sorry, Nathaniel, we haven't. We haven't done 0:01:07.084 --> 0:01:09.804 poker drama for a while. But this is poker drama 0:01:09.844 --> 0:01:13.804 that's squarely in the intersection of the poker world and 0:01:14.084 --> 0:01:16.884 the non poker world. And that as a writer as 0:01:16.884 --> 0:01:20.724 a creator, really grabbed me and I'm guessing grabbed you 0:01:20.884 --> 0:01:24.164 as well. And it has to do with the No 0:01:24.604 --> 0:01:28.244 Limit documentary series that was released a few weeks ago. 0:01:28.564 --> 0:01:30.724 But no, dear listeners, you will not be able to 0:01:30.764 --> 0:01:33.444 find it anywhere because it has since been scrubbed from 0:01:33.564 --> 0:01:36.884 the internet. So Nate, do you want me to give 0:01:36.924 --> 0:01:38.884 a little bit of a rundown for. 0:01:40.324 --> 0:01:40.884 Yeah? 0:01:40.924 --> 0:01:44.924 All right, So, first of all, this was a documentary 0:01:45.524 --> 0:01:50.164 that was created by a collaboration between Gigi Poker, which 0:01:50.204 --> 0:01:53.204 owns the World Series of Poker, and Artisans on Fire, 0:01:53.324 --> 0:02:01.364 specifically Dustin Ayanotti, who followed last year players during the 0:02:01.924 --> 0:02:08.164 inaugural twenty five thousand dollars Super Main event in the Bahamas, 0:02:08.524 --> 0:02:12.324 which was the just ever guarantee in poker history. Lots 0:02:12.364 --> 0:02:16.444 of compelling storylines. I mean, it was a huge, huge event. 0:02:16.524 --> 0:02:20.724 I definitely remember seeing it from Afar. I was in 0:02:20.844 --> 0:02:22.804 Vegas at the time. I did not play in it, 0:02:23.124 --> 0:02:26.484 but being like wow, like holy shit, this is huge. 0:02:26.724 --> 0:02:30.804 So Dustin I Andatti followed players around. According to their 0:02:30.844 --> 0:02:36.044 original release, they had over six hundred and fifty hours 0:02:36.124 --> 0:02:40.284 of behind the scenes footage from the event. Six hundred 0:02:40.284 --> 0:02:43.444 and fifty hours, Nate. That is a lot of hours, 0:02:43.684 --> 0:02:48.524 and it was edited down to eight thirty minute episodes. 0:02:49.044 --> 0:02:52.484 Six of them had been released by last week when 0:02:52.644 --> 0:02:56.084 it came out. And I say it came out because 0:02:56.124 --> 0:03:01.284 there was no you know, there were no intimations or 0:03:01.324 --> 0:03:03.604 signs that this was the case. But one of the 0:03:03.684 --> 0:03:08.044 main characters. Alan Keating had watched one of the episodes 0:03:08.084 --> 0:03:10.484 where he appeared and was like, hey, I didn't say 0:03:10.524 --> 0:03:14.444 this stuff, like what is actually going on? And he 0:03:14.644 --> 0:03:18.204 called out the documentary on Twitter and was like, hey, guys, 0:03:18.244 --> 0:03:23.084 what's going on. Dustin admitted that he had used AI 0:03:23.204 --> 0:03:29.524 to advance the narrative and put words in Keating's mouth 0:03:29.564 --> 0:03:33.084 that Keating never actually said. By the way, both Keating's 0:03:33.084 --> 0:03:36.564 original call out and Ionatti's Mia Coolpa have since been 0:03:36.564 --> 0:03:39.404 taken off. Anyway, long story short, he said, oh, but 0:03:39.444 --> 0:03:41.924 this is the only time I used it, Like, not 0:03:42.084 --> 0:03:44.724 really a big deal. Then there was another Keating who's 0:03:44.764 --> 0:03:47.764 not at all related, Alex Keating, who's like, actually, wait no, 0:03:47.844 --> 0:03:51.284 I'm going to raise my hand to because also you know, 0:03:51.724 --> 0:03:55.364 I see it in my stuff. Anyway, documentary has been 0:03:55.404 --> 0:03:59.844 taken off. WSP apologizes and says that they are going 0:03:59.884 --> 0:04:04.684 to re edit everything and that's kind of that's where 0:04:04.684 --> 0:04:07.684 we stand right now. I have some very strong feelings 0:04:07.724 --> 0:04:10.244 on this that go far beyond this the poker world, 0:04:11.044 --> 0:04:13.524 and I'm sure you do too. I'll let you start 0:04:13.564 --> 0:04:15.964 since I've kind of been hogging the mic with the 0:04:16.004 --> 0:04:16.964 background of the drama. 0:04:17.044 --> 0:04:18.404 Yeah, Oh, it was a one off thing. 0:04:18.444 --> 0:04:22.764 It's like when people are like accused of handsiness or 0:04:22.804 --> 0:04:23.644 sexual harassment. 0:04:23.684 --> 0:04:25.884 Right, usually not a usually not a one off thing. 0:04:25.924 --> 0:04:31.084 It's usually a chronic behavior where you don't recognize a 0:04:31.444 --> 0:04:34.284 boundary of permission. Yeah, by the way, if you ever 0:04:34.324 --> 0:04:36.724 interview me for some shit like this, I hate watching 0:04:36.724 --> 0:04:38.644 myself on TV, so you could probably. 0:04:38.724 --> 0:04:39.844 Just make me say whatever. 0:04:39.884 --> 0:04:40.084 I mean. 0:04:40.564 --> 0:04:41.884 You're too lazy to ever check it. 0:04:43.724 --> 0:04:45.724 It's so funny that you said that. I was actually 0:04:46.004 --> 0:04:48.604 talking with my husband about this, and I was like, 0:04:48.684 --> 0:04:50.564 I would lose my shit if this happened to me, 0:04:50.604 --> 0:04:54.004 because I think both of us have appeared in dozens 0:04:54.044 --> 0:04:56.324 of documentaries, like I don't even know how many, but 0:04:56.364 --> 0:04:59.204 I never watch myself back, and I don't actually think 0:04:59.204 --> 0:05:02.964 that Keating watched himself back until somebody quoted him back 0:05:03.004 --> 0:05:06.124 to him and he was like, wait, I never said that, 0:05:06.284 --> 0:05:07.964 and then he watched Now. 0:05:07.964 --> 0:05:12.404 Look, in all seriousness, I am reluctant to give any 0:05:12.444 --> 0:05:17.684 interviews for something that can be edited, even fairly or 0:05:17.724 --> 0:05:18.804 relatively fairly. 0:05:18.924 --> 0:05:20.244 Right, if you're you know, if you're. 0:05:21.724 --> 0:05:25.244 Tapping an hour with me and you're gonna clip five 0:05:25.284 --> 0:05:27.764 minutes out of it, or maybe fifteen seconds out of it, right, 0:05:27.804 --> 0:05:30.484 Like that makes me very nervous, right, yeah, you know, 0:05:30.604 --> 0:05:32.244 and I kind of feel like, and this is kind 0:05:32.244 --> 0:05:35.604 of advice to people in general. I'm sure we have 0:05:35.644 --> 0:05:38.804 a lot of influential listeners. Is like, yeah, you should 0:05:38.884 --> 0:05:42.404 understand kind of like what the journalist's motivation is. If 0:05:42.404 --> 0:05:45.004 the story's about you and your kind of primary character, 0:05:45.044 --> 0:05:47.004 that's one thing. If you're kind of invited in to 0:05:47.044 --> 0:05:49.204 provide like color commentary, then yeah, I. 0:05:49.604 --> 0:05:50.604 Would be a little bit wary. 0:05:50.644 --> 0:05:53.204 But look, I think there are a couple of things 0:05:53.244 --> 0:05:56.924 going on here right, Like one is like a lack 0:05:57.044 --> 0:06:03.724 of recognition of what like good journalism or even journalism. 0:06:03.284 --> 0:06:05.604 Good or not really is So, what's the guy's name, 0:06:05.644 --> 0:06:06.684 like Ianetti. 0:06:06.364 --> 0:06:11.924 Some Dustin, Ionotti, Ionatti. Yeah, he I apologize if I'm 0:06:11.924 --> 0:06:13.564 mispronouncing it, and it's whatever. 0:06:13.604 --> 0:06:14.884 It's a it's an American eye. 0:06:15.444 --> 0:06:18.044 You go with Dustin, we get to pronounce the you know, 0:06:18.044 --> 0:06:20.164 if you're like Dante or something, then maybe you can 0:06:20.244 --> 0:06:21.004 italian ify it. 0:06:21.084 --> 0:06:23.644 Whatever. Dustin, we get to pick how to pronounce your 0:06:23.684 --> 0:06:24.084 last name. 0:06:24.124 --> 0:06:28.804 I feel like, Dustin, you're giving up your anyway. But 0:06:28.964 --> 0:06:34.524 mister Dustin posted a lot of not pretentious, but a 0:06:34.524 --> 0:06:39.044 lot of very long tweets on X where he's like, 0:06:39.444 --> 0:06:43.364 you know, poker is losing mind share to chess and 0:06:43.724 --> 0:06:46.924 f one and all these other things that should be 0:06:46.964 --> 0:06:50.764 comprolled to poker, and we do much worse. And there 0:06:50.804 --> 0:06:51.964 are a lot of reasons for this, but one of 0:06:51.964 --> 0:06:54.524 the reasons is that we're not We're not good enough 0:06:54.524 --> 0:07:00.884 at like storytelling and narrative, right, which, Okay, I think 0:07:00.924 --> 0:07:03.124 people some people might say, well, okay, is it used 0:07:03.164 --> 0:07:06.764 okay to use chatchpt to do like a little copy 0:07:06.804 --> 0:07:10.084 of it on your on your script. Sure, I would 0:07:10.124 --> 0:07:13.004 think it's totally fine. Right, Is it usefull to use 0:07:13.044 --> 0:07:17.124 AI tools to clean up literal visual defects? I mean, 0:07:17.124 --> 0:07:19.644 I think sure, it's probably fine. When you are attributing 0:07:19.684 --> 0:07:24.124 though a quote to some person, then you're not allowed 0:07:24.124 --> 0:07:24.444 to do that. 0:07:24.484 --> 0:07:27.124 It's like a basic journalism thing. It's also weird. 0:07:27.364 --> 0:07:29.444 It's also just weird because like, you tape all this 0:07:29.484 --> 0:07:33.964 footage and like, yep, can you really not make the story. 0:07:33.844 --> 0:07:37.484 It's two hundred and fifty hours. I just keep saying 0:07:37.524 --> 0:07:39.884 that because it is mind boggling to me that you 0:07:39.884 --> 0:07:43.124 would have that much footage and say that for the 0:07:43.284 --> 0:07:46.564 sake of narrative, you needed to create something that you 0:07:46.564 --> 0:07:47.004 didn't have. 0:07:47.244 --> 0:07:49.444 Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of lazy, you know 0:07:49.484 --> 0:07:52.324 what I mean, Like that in all that footage you 0:07:52.404 --> 0:07:53.324 can't find. 0:07:54.644 --> 0:07:55.044 The quote. 0:07:55.044 --> 0:08:01.604 I mean, look, yeah, sometimes when when you're writing, you're like, boy, 0:08:02.524 --> 0:08:06.724 I wish the subject had said that, right. Well, you 0:08:06.764 --> 0:08:08.244 can do though, if you're a writer. 0:08:08.764 --> 0:08:10.884 You can actually say it in your own voice. 0:08:10.924 --> 0:08:12.884 You're like, that's a good idea, right, or you can 0:08:13.044 --> 0:08:16.444 or or they are like legitimate ways to paraphraate. Well, 0:08:16.444 --> 0:08:21.284 you know, sometimes if someone like jumping around the meaning 0:08:21.324 --> 0:08:23.764 of something, then I mean, this is a little bit 0:08:23.764 --> 0:08:27.044 of a fine art. The BBC got in trouble recently 0:08:27.164 --> 0:08:31.004 for like splicing together two stippets of a Trump speech 0:08:31.044 --> 0:08:35.044 on January sixth that were like thirty minutes apart or 0:08:35.044 --> 0:08:37.044 something and made it seem like He's like. 0:08:38.044 --> 0:08:40.524 Go attack the capitol right now. 0:08:40.604 --> 0:08:42.844 Right, it was kind of like we need to go 0:08:42.924 --> 0:08:44.724 to the capitol blah blah blah, half an hour. 0:08:44.684 --> 0:08:45.244 Blah blah blah. 0:08:45.244 --> 0:08:47.764 He was long winded and go march there right now, 0:08:47.804 --> 0:08:51.564 and like okay, like that clearly was taken out of context, 0:08:51.644 --> 0:08:54.604 right like yeah, like I don't know when you use 0:08:54.604 --> 0:08:56.684 like the ellipses anyway, I'm getting like weird journalism stuff. 0:08:56.684 --> 0:08:58.524 The point is it, like no, but you know what, 0:08:58.884 --> 0:09:02.484 this weird journalism stuff is actually important because it's been 0:09:02.524 --> 0:09:04.924 around for a very long time, and there are standards 0:09:04.964 --> 0:09:08.004 for a reason. For instance, the New Yorker and I 0:09:08.044 --> 0:09:11.444 think most magazines actually that I've ever written for do 0:09:11.604 --> 0:09:16.724 not actually allow you to allow sources to look through 0:09:16.724 --> 0:09:20.724 their quotes before you publish, right, Like that's because you're 0:09:21.284 --> 0:09:23.204 you know, you don't want someone to be like, well, 0:09:23.364 --> 0:09:25.564 you know, I don't actually want you know, to be 0:09:25.684 --> 0:09:27.964 quoted saying this, Like you're on the record. You give 0:09:27.964 --> 0:09:31.084 the interview, like that's it, but you record, right, You 0:09:31.124 --> 0:09:34.804 have recordings, you have notes, you have all this stuff. 0:09:34.844 --> 0:09:37.484 You give all of that to fact checkers who actually 0:09:37.564 --> 0:09:40.844 go through and make sure that this all happened and 0:09:40.884 --> 0:09:44.604 this all exists. The reason that we do this is 0:09:44.644 --> 0:09:49.124 that in the past there have been egregious malpractice issues 0:09:49.484 --> 0:09:54.484 with journalists who made shit up right and who actually 0:09:54.524 --> 0:09:58.084 did craft the perfect characters or the perfect stories because 0:09:58.124 --> 0:10:02.724 it suited their story whatever they were trying to tell, 0:10:02.964 --> 0:10:05.404 and some of them got away with it. So at 0:10:05.444 --> 0:10:08.924 The New Yorker, someone who absolutely broke my heart was 0:10:09.004 --> 0:10:12.164 Joseph Mitchell, who died before I don't know if he 0:10:12.204 --> 0:10:13.964 died before I was born, but you know, this is 0:10:14.004 --> 0:10:18.284 a different era of New Yorker journalism, and Joseph Mitchell 0:10:18.364 --> 0:10:21.764 was someone I had really really looked up to as 0:10:21.844 --> 0:10:25.444 like a cub writer because his stories were just filled 0:10:25.444 --> 0:10:28.644 with these amazing characters, these amazing quotes, these amazing scenes, 0:10:28.644 --> 0:10:31.084 and I was like, wow, I wish I could do that. Right, 0:10:31.484 --> 0:10:34.844 he writes nonfiction that's like fiction. He finds all of 0:10:34.884 --> 0:10:37.804 these amazing things and he brings you there, and it 0:10:37.844 --> 0:10:41.884 turns out his nonfiction was fiction. So as it turns 0:10:41.924 --> 0:10:45.164 out he actually did exactly what you were suggesting that 0:10:45.244 --> 0:10:47.404 and he's like, I wish this quote existed. I'm just 0:10:47.444 --> 0:10:49.444 going to make it up and I'm going to create 0:10:49.484 --> 0:10:52.724 a composite character based on the reporting I did, who 0:10:52.804 --> 0:10:54.964 says all of these things that are very convenient for 0:10:55.004 --> 0:10:57.444 me to say. Now. Like I said, different era, at 0:10:57.444 --> 0:11:01.044 different time, the vaunted fact checking department did not work 0:11:01.084 --> 0:11:04.124 the way that it does today. It slipped through, and 0:11:04.404 --> 0:11:06.244 like I said, it broke my heart because it sets 0:11:06.284 --> 0:11:10.604 you to an absolutely unattainable standard. I was looking at 0:11:10.644 --> 0:11:13.444 this like, oh, this is what journalism is. No, this 0:11:13.564 --> 0:11:16.884 is what fiction is. And the reason it was so clean, 0:11:17.284 --> 0:11:20.444 with you know, all the bows beautifully tied, is because 0:11:20.524 --> 0:11:23.604 it was fiction. Now he's a beautiful writer. But he's 0:11:23.644 --> 0:11:27.044 a novelist, right, He's a fabulist. He is not actually 0:11:27.404 --> 0:11:32.164 someone who is a journalist. And the reason I felt 0:11:32.204 --> 0:11:35.684 betrayed was because he wasn't saying this is inspired by 0:11:35.764 --> 0:11:39.244 He was portraying it as this is literally what happened, 0:11:39.284 --> 0:11:41.724 and these are literally the people I talk to. When 0:11:41.804 --> 0:11:45.924 you are a documentary filmmaker, you are saying I am 0:11:46.004 --> 0:11:49.164 a documentarian, and we're not talking about someone like Ken Burns, right, 0:11:49.204 --> 0:11:51.484 who's doing a historic documentary about people who are no 0:11:51.564 --> 0:11:54.764 longer alive, and you have historic recreations, et cetera, et cetera. 0:11:55.404 --> 0:11:58.244 What you're trying to be you know, true to the characters. 0:11:58.324 --> 0:12:00.844 But you know John Adams and alive. Sorry so we 0:12:00.884 --> 0:12:03.524 can't go and interview him. But when you're doing a 0:12:03.564 --> 0:12:07.164 documentary in the modern era, in real time where you're 0:12:07.204 --> 0:12:10.644 following people around, and you are saying, I am creating 0:12:10.684 --> 0:12:13.964 a real experience, and I am showing you the unvarnished truth, 0:12:14.364 --> 0:12:17.924 and then you use AI however, you use it without 0:12:17.924 --> 0:12:21.364 telling anyone that you're using it, without asking people is 0:12:21.364 --> 0:12:23.324 it okay to use it? There are just so many 0:12:23.364 --> 0:12:27.524 issues here that I think are going to become more 0:12:27.604 --> 0:12:32.004 and more important to deal with as AI becomes more prevalent. Right, 0:12:32.244 --> 0:12:35.164 but this is something that's existed in journalism long, long 0:12:35.244 --> 0:12:36.084 long before AI. 0:12:36.244 --> 0:12:38.404 Yeah, there's like Jonah Lair. I mean, look, I would 0:12:38.404 --> 0:12:40.444 see as a kissing cousin of this at least is 0:12:40.444 --> 0:12:45.804 also the data fraud scandals in yes, academic absolutely which 0:12:45.884 --> 0:12:48.644 often kind of found was like Jonah Lair, who is 0:12:48.724 --> 0:12:51.564 Stephen Glass. Jason Blair was another or maybe young but 0:12:51.644 --> 0:12:54.724 like but where like, yeah, it makes a narrative a 0:12:54.764 --> 0:12:58.724 little bit too meet and perfect, right, And maybe I 0:12:58.764 --> 0:13:02.724 have like a more general critique of like journalism where like, 0:13:02.764 --> 0:13:05.804 you know, whenever I hear the word storytelling as it 0:13:05.844 --> 0:13:08.444 pertains journalism, I get a little bit nervous, right, because 0:13:08.484 --> 0:13:13.084 I think that often involves, at least over simplification. It 0:13:13.164 --> 0:13:17.924 often involves you know, turning characters into like good and evil, 0:13:18.044 --> 0:13:22.364 sometimes caricatures a little bit. And look, I think I 0:13:22.404 --> 0:13:24.884 mean in Marie, the books that we write take a 0:13:24.924 --> 0:13:28.004 long time and involve a lot of research, right, you know, 0:13:28.084 --> 0:13:30.844 to me, it's also laziness kind of thing, right, where 0:13:30.884 --> 0:13:32.444 like you should be able if you know, I talked 0:13:32.444 --> 0:13:34.644 to two hundred people from my book, I should be 0:13:34.644 --> 0:13:38.484 able to find and I can also consult source material, 0:13:38.484 --> 0:13:40.284 I can read other books, right, Like, if I can't 0:13:40.324 --> 0:13:45.204 find interesting stories out of those two hundred interviews, yeah, 0:13:45.204 --> 0:13:47.284 then okay, that's a problem. 0:13:47.564 --> 0:13:49.564 It's a problem. I mean, what's weird about this world? 0:13:49.604 --> 0:13:54.564 Shirts poke video is like the quotes from uh Keating 0:13:55.084 --> 0:13:58.084 are like similar to things that he would say. 0:13:57.884 --> 0:13:59.404 And they're not really advancing them there. 0:13:59.484 --> 0:14:01.604 It's like it's just no, it was just it was 0:14:01.684 --> 0:14:04.524 just it was very Yeah, I don't understand. But by 0:14:04.604 --> 0:14:08.124 the way, for listeners, just a bit of context. You 0:14:08.164 --> 0:14:11.044 threw a lot of names out. Jonah Lair was a 0:14:11.124 --> 0:14:14.404 journalist with The New Yorker as well, and he was 0:14:14.564 --> 0:14:19.804 fired for just major issues of fabrication. The reason he 0:14:19.924 --> 0:14:25.244 was caught was inventing a quote by Bob Dylan, right, 0:14:25.444 --> 0:14:27.964 the one person who you would never invent a quote 0:14:28.004 --> 0:14:31.004 from because the fans Bob Dylan fans man, first of all, 0:14:31.044 --> 0:14:34.364 Bob Dylan's still alive. Secondly, Bob Dylan fans, they have 0:14:34.444 --> 0:14:37.964 gone through every single word that man has ever said 0:14:37.964 --> 0:14:41.604 with a fine tooth com and believe me, immediately when 0:14:41.604 --> 0:14:44.284 this quote came out, people were like, oh my god, 0:14:44.444 --> 0:14:46.644 when did he say this? It's such a beautiful quote 0:14:46.644 --> 0:14:49.524 about the nature of creativity. Never said it right, but 0:14:49.564 --> 0:14:51.644 it was. It was very convenient. So that was yeah, 0:14:51.724 --> 0:14:55.644 that was jonah Laire And I think your similarity the 0:14:55.644 --> 0:14:59.924 similarity with data fabrication is if you're a scientist who 0:15:00.004 --> 0:15:03.124 has kind of a hypothesis in mind and the data 0:15:03.204 --> 0:15:06.564 almost fit, you know, it can be very tempting to 0:15:06.604 --> 0:15:08.764 be like, let's set massage this a little bit, right, 0:15:09.124 --> 0:15:12.884 let's take out these data points, let's control for this variable. 0:15:12.924 --> 0:15:16.204 P hacking right, Like that PA hacking is the nice 0:15:16.764 --> 0:15:19.964 version of it where you don't actually fabricate anything, but 0:15:20.124 --> 0:15:23.204 you start controlling for random things so that your P 0:15:23.404 --> 0:15:26.604 value becomes significant, so that you hit that significant point 0:15:26.804 --> 0:15:30.164 five thresholder and you're like, ha, I told you. But 0:15:30.204 --> 0:15:33.364 then when asked like, hey, why did you control for this? 0:15:33.564 --> 0:15:35.644 Like why did you control for that? Like is there 0:15:35.644 --> 0:15:40.004 any a priori reason or hypothesis. Oftentimes the answer is like, well, 0:15:40.084 --> 0:15:43.284 because it became significant only then, So that's kind of 0:15:43.284 --> 0:15:45.644 the benign version. And the less benign version is when 0:15:45.684 --> 0:15:50.044 you literally create data points or take away data points, 0:15:50.404 --> 0:15:54.364 or fabricate data out of out of thin air, which 0:15:54.404 --> 0:15:58.804 happened with allegedly happened with Dan Arieli and Francesca Gino 0:15:59.484 --> 0:16:02.524 in some of those studies that are being investigated as 0:16:02.524 --> 0:16:02.924 we speak. 0:16:09.404 --> 0:16:10.884 I'll be right back after this break. 0:16:17.124 --> 0:16:19.164 Yeah, you get different rationales for this, right. Sometimes it's 0:16:19.204 --> 0:16:24.244 kind of this like post modern Oh, everybody's doing it. 0:16:24.244 --> 0:16:26.644 It's all a game for power and influence. Right. 0:16:26.924 --> 0:16:29.484 Sometimes it can have like more of an ideological basis, 0:16:29.524 --> 0:16:30.844 like you know what, we're on the right side of 0:16:30.884 --> 0:16:35.924 things and the other chide embellishes and cheats and so like. 0:16:37.204 --> 0:16:39.084 And by the way, you can play plenty of examples 0:16:39.444 --> 0:16:41.284 of Democrats doing this, but like one that comes to 0:16:41.324 --> 0:16:45.204 mind is jd Vance, the vice presidential nominee in the 0:16:45.204 --> 0:16:49.764 campaign last year, was like, Yeah, these media narratives I'm paraphrasing, this. 0:16:49.724 --> 0:16:51.364 Is not direct quote. 0:16:52.644 --> 0:16:55.724 These media narratives about Haitian immigrants and dogs and cats 0:16:55.764 --> 0:16:59.924 might be a little bit exaggerated. However, democrats lie about 0:17:00.684 --> 0:17:03.524 shit like this all the time, and we need something 0:17:03.564 --> 0:17:05.044 to grab them me to use attention. It was kind 0:17:05.084 --> 0:17:06.604 of like a masscof moment where he's like a little 0:17:06.644 --> 0:17:10.444 bit more honest about that, and and you know, you 0:17:10.484 --> 0:17:13.204 see that kind of thing happen all the. 0:17:13.644 --> 0:17:18.244 Time, right, I mean I don't know. 0:17:18.284 --> 0:17:20.124 I mean, you know, and there's a difference again between 0:17:20.204 --> 0:17:24.884 like lies and exaggerations. I mean, some of the during 0:17:24.884 --> 0:17:27.924 the racial recogning, I think, you know, the behavior of 0:17:27.924 --> 0:17:31.284 certain people was exaggerated very much. I mean, there's lots 0:17:31.284 --> 0:17:34.724 of misinformation out there. Still, there's a lot of information 0:17:34.724 --> 0:17:37.444 about like there's a big controversy on Twitter about like 0:17:37.644 --> 0:17:40.964 AI data centers and how much water they use. I 0:17:40.964 --> 0:17:45.604 mean there's a lot of but like, but it's also 0:17:45.724 --> 0:17:50.924 sometimes like a lack of like formal training. Right, if 0:17:50.924 --> 0:17:53.084 people kind of get into, like I guess more and 0:17:53.164 --> 0:17:56.404 more people that kind of get into like content creation 0:17:56.724 --> 0:17:59.924 don't kind of I don't know if it's actually empirically true, Right, 0:18:00.124 --> 0:18:02.284 I imagine a fewer them kind of go to school 0:18:02.404 --> 0:18:06.124 for journalism or whatnot. Right, they can kind of go 0:18:06.324 --> 0:18:09.484 like viral in their own ways potentially. 0:18:09.124 --> 0:18:10.164 And. 0:18:11.204 --> 0:18:14.124 You know, Yeah, when I was kind of the editor 0:18:14.164 --> 0:18:15.804 in chief of five thirty eight, which is partly a 0:18:15.804 --> 0:18:18.124 ceremonial title, but you did kind of notice difference. We 0:18:18.204 --> 0:18:21.844 mostly did hire people that were like, had a background 0:18:21.844 --> 0:18:25.684 in kind of capital jay journalism, and I think that 0:18:25.844 --> 0:18:27.204 helped with this kind of thing at least. 0:18:27.684 --> 0:18:30.764 Sure. Yeah, well, you know, I think you're making a 0:18:30.804 --> 0:18:33.804 really important point in that, you know, we are living 0:18:33.884 --> 0:18:38.444 at a time where it's it can be really difficult 0:18:38.484 --> 0:18:41.124 to discern, you know, what's the truth and what isn't right, 0:18:41.204 --> 0:18:44.164 where like the lines are so fungible, like there's so 0:18:44.324 --> 0:18:48.284 much misinformation on every side, and it's true in politics 0:18:48.324 --> 0:18:52.524 and and everything, that it feels like when you then 0:18:52.724 --> 0:18:57.004 intentionally do it right, like you're you're just muddying already 0:18:57.044 --> 0:19:00.884 muddy waters. And to me, it's all, you know, as 0:19:01.004 --> 0:19:03.284 as our listeners know, I'm working on a book about cheating, 0:19:03.604 --> 0:19:05.964 and it's all kind of these you know, forms of 0:19:06.564 --> 0:19:10.644 kind of cheating with what your profession is supposed to do. Unless, 0:19:10.764 --> 0:19:14.284 like I said, I don't actually necessarily have a problem 0:19:14.324 --> 0:19:18.644 with using AI if you say, like how you're doing it, 0:19:18.884 --> 0:19:21.364 if you ask people for permission, if you kind of 0:19:21.364 --> 0:19:24.444 explain what you're going to be doing if you disclose it, right, 0:19:24.524 --> 0:19:27.564 if you say, like, hey, like this some of this 0:19:27.644 --> 0:19:31.564 has been generated with the help of AI for narrative clarity, right, 0:19:31.644 --> 0:19:35.444 like whatever it is, I personally wouldn't do that, but like, 0:19:35.684 --> 0:19:38.324 at least do that and at least kind of have 0:19:38.444 --> 0:19:42.164 the decency to ask permission from the people who you 0:19:42.324 --> 0:19:46.284 are interviewing, right to say, like, is it okay if 0:19:46.284 --> 0:19:48.844 we if we edit you in this way? Is it 0:19:48.884 --> 0:19:54.244 okay if we use AI to kind of to move 0:19:54.404 --> 0:19:57.564 forward the narrative. I don't even remember what the wording is. 0:19:57.884 --> 0:20:01.244 But you have to ask for permission. Nay, I'm sure 0:20:01.244 --> 0:20:05.644 that before you do documentaries like like I do, you 0:20:05.684 --> 0:20:08.724 go through an appearance release form right where you actually 0:20:08.764 --> 0:20:11.404 have to got all these things and sign it. I 0:20:11.644 --> 0:20:15.884 read that shit, and I actually read it really carefully, 0:20:15.924 --> 0:20:18.684 and I make changes, and I make changes that say 0:20:18.684 --> 0:20:21.044 that no, like, actually, you can't edit this way. No, 0:20:21.324 --> 0:20:24.364 I don't consent to the use this way. No, you 0:20:24.444 --> 0:20:26.844 must ask my permission if you're doing this or that 0:20:27.284 --> 0:20:29.564 all of these things. And I've had times when I've 0:20:29.604 --> 0:20:34.004 walked away when I haven't appeared in projects because they 0:20:34.044 --> 0:20:38.124 weren't okay with my edits. And I had one particular 0:20:38.244 --> 0:20:41.524 time last year that was really frustrating because it was 0:20:41.524 --> 0:20:45.164 for this huge Canadian show and we spent multiple hours 0:20:45.564 --> 0:20:47.644 filming and it was all this stuff, and then they 0:20:47.644 --> 0:20:50.724 gave me, like almost as an afterthought, this absolutely batshit 0:20:50.844 --> 0:20:54.324 crazy release that I then edited the crap out of 0:20:54.484 --> 0:20:57.244 and we couldn't come to an agreement. So it was 0:20:57.524 --> 0:20:59.324 they had spent tons of money, right, they had flown 0:20:59.324 --> 0:21:02.284 out a whole crew, rented at a hotel room like, 0:21:02.364 --> 0:21:05.324 done all this stuff with me. I had spent all 0:21:05.364 --> 0:21:08.164 this time, you know, it was a day gone out 0:21:08.204 --> 0:21:09.604 of my life. And I was like, you know what, 0:21:09.724 --> 0:21:12.044 but I'm sorry, you're not going to be using this 0:21:12.204 --> 0:21:16.284 because I'm not comfortable with the liberties that you may 0:21:16.444 --> 0:21:19.164 or may not take. Right. Maybe they it would have 0:21:19.204 --> 0:21:22.084 been unedited, but the things that I was agreeing to, 0:21:22.244 --> 0:21:24.724 I was like, I am not okay with that. I 0:21:24.804 --> 0:21:26.924 want to know exactly how the things. And it was 0:21:26.924 --> 0:21:30.084 political too, right, it was about Trump, so Nate, you know, 0:21:30.204 --> 0:21:32.924 like that kind of stuff. You just have to be 0:21:33.004 --> 0:21:35.684 so careful that people are not going to be using 0:21:35.724 --> 0:21:38.324 it out of context, juxtaposing it with images or with 0:21:38.444 --> 0:21:42.444 things that make it seem different from your intention that 0:21:42.484 --> 0:21:45.244 they remain true to kind of what you said and 0:21:45.684 --> 0:21:47.804 how you intended it to be perceived. 0:21:48.404 --> 0:21:52.124 Yeah, anything, This is very inside baseball. Anything involving traditional 0:21:52.204 --> 0:21:57.244 produced television or video or film, right, is like quite 0:21:57.404 --> 0:22:00.244 labor intensive relative to the amount of time that the 0:22:00.284 --> 0:22:03.124 eventual and product uses up, including what they able to 0:22:03.164 --> 0:22:05.764 shoot a lot, a lot a lot of footage with 0:22:05.844 --> 0:22:07.924