1 00:00:15,604 --> 00:00:27,684 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to risky business show about making better decisions. 2 00:00:27,764 --> 00:00:29,404 Speaker 1: I'm Maria Kannakova. 3 00:00:29,004 --> 00:00:30,764 Speaker 2: And I'm Nathaniel Silver. 4 00:00:32,884 --> 00:00:34,844 Speaker 1: You just can't leave it alone. You can't just mean 5 00:00:34,924 --> 00:00:38,084 Speaker 1: Nate Silver. I'm gonna call you Nathaniel. This entire show 6 00:00:38,244 --> 00:00:39,724 Speaker 1: just watched you go to. 7 00:00:40,244 --> 00:00:44,524 Speaker 3: Spend a litle time in Florida and there, Nate, n 8 00:00:44,564 --> 00:00:48,644 Speaker 3: Ate is very often Nae if you have like for 9 00:00:48,724 --> 00:00:52,604 Speaker 3: an example, Aver, so you know, Nathaniel might be might 10 00:00:52,644 --> 00:00:54,404 Speaker 3: be needed in the mix a little bit here. 11 00:00:55,404 --> 00:00:59,564 Speaker 1: All right, Nate, let's uh, let's get going today on 12 00:00:59,644 --> 00:01:02,204 Speaker 1: the show. We have some poker drama. 13 00:01:02,484 --> 00:01:02,684 Speaker 3: Nate. 14 00:01:02,724 --> 00:01:07,044 Speaker 1: We haven't oh sorry, Nathaniel, we haven't. We haven't done 15 00:01:07,084 --> 00:01:09,804 Speaker 1: poker drama for a while. But this is poker drama 16 00:01:09,844 --> 00:01:13,804 Speaker 1: that's squarely in the intersection of the poker world and 17 00:01:14,084 --> 00:01:16,884 Speaker 1: the non poker world. And that as a writer as 18 00:01:16,884 --> 00:01:20,724 Speaker 1: a creator, really grabbed me and I'm guessing grabbed you 19 00:01:20,884 --> 00:01:24,164 Speaker 1: as well. And it has to do with the No 20 00:01:24,604 --> 00:01:28,244 Speaker 1: Limit documentary series that was released a few weeks ago. 21 00:01:28,564 --> 00:01:30,724 Speaker 1: But no, dear listeners, you will not be able to 22 00:01:30,764 --> 00:01:33,444 Speaker 1: find it anywhere because it has since been scrubbed from 23 00:01:33,564 --> 00:01:36,884 Speaker 1: the internet. So Nate, do you want me to give 24 00:01:36,924 --> 00:01:38,884 Speaker 1: a little bit of a rundown for. 25 00:01:40,324 --> 00:01:40,884 Speaker 2: Yeah? 26 00:01:40,924 --> 00:01:44,924 Speaker 1: All right, So, first of all, this was a documentary 27 00:01:45,524 --> 00:01:50,164 Speaker 1: that was created by a collaboration between Gigi Poker, which 28 00:01:50,204 --> 00:01:53,204 Speaker 1: owns the World Series of Poker, and Artisans on Fire, 29 00:01:53,324 --> 00:02:01,364 Speaker 1: specifically Dustin Ayanotti, who followed last year players during the 30 00:02:01,924 --> 00:02:08,164 Speaker 1: inaugural twenty five thousand dollars Super Main event in the Bahamas, 31 00:02:08,524 --> 00:02:12,324 Speaker 1: which was the just ever guarantee in poker history. Lots 32 00:02:12,364 --> 00:02:16,444 Speaker 1: of compelling storylines. I mean, it was a huge, huge event. 33 00:02:16,524 --> 00:02:20,724 Speaker 1: I definitely remember seeing it from Afar. I was in 34 00:02:20,844 --> 00:02:22,804 Speaker 1: Vegas at the time. I did not play in it, 35 00:02:23,124 --> 00:02:26,484 Speaker 1: but being like wow, like holy shit, this is huge. 36 00:02:26,724 --> 00:02:30,804 Speaker 1: So Dustin I Andatti followed players around. According to their 37 00:02:30,844 --> 00:02:36,044 Speaker 1: original release, they had over six hundred and fifty hours 38 00:02:36,124 --> 00:02:40,284 Speaker 1: of behind the scenes footage from the event. Six hundred 39 00:02:40,284 --> 00:02:43,444 Speaker 1: and fifty hours, Nate. That is a lot of hours, 40 00:02:43,684 --> 00:02:48,524 Speaker 1: and it was edited down to eight thirty minute episodes. 41 00:02:49,044 --> 00:02:52,484 Speaker 1: Six of them had been released by last week when 42 00:02:52,644 --> 00:02:56,084 Speaker 1: it came out. And I say it came out because 43 00:02:56,124 --> 00:03:01,284 Speaker 1: there was no you know, there were no intimations or 44 00:03:01,324 --> 00:03:03,604 Speaker 1: signs that this was the case. But one of the 45 00:03:03,684 --> 00:03:08,044 Speaker 1: main characters. Alan Keating had watched one of the episodes 46 00:03:08,084 --> 00:03:10,484 Speaker 1: where he appeared and was like, hey, I didn't say 47 00:03:10,524 --> 00:03:14,444 Speaker 1: this stuff, like what is actually going on? And he 48 00:03:14,644 --> 00:03:18,204 Speaker 1: called out the documentary on Twitter and was like, hey, guys, 49 00:03:18,244 --> 00:03:23,084 Speaker 1: what's going on. Dustin admitted that he had used AI 50 00:03:23,204 --> 00:03:29,524 Speaker 1: to advance the narrative and put words in Keating's mouth 51 00:03:29,564 --> 00:03:33,084 Speaker 1: that Keating never actually said. By the way, both Keating's 52 00:03:33,084 --> 00:03:36,564 Speaker 1: original call out and Ionatti's Mia Coolpa have since been 53 00:03:36,564 --> 00:03:39,404 Speaker 1: taken off. Anyway, long story short, he said, oh, but 54 00:03:39,444 --> 00:03:41,924 Speaker 1: this is the only time I used it, Like, not 55 00:03:42,084 --> 00:03:44,724 Speaker 1: really a big deal. Then there was another Keating who's 56 00:03:44,764 --> 00:03:47,764 Speaker 1: not at all related, Alex Keating, who's like, actually, wait no, 57 00:03:47,844 --> 00:03:51,284 Speaker 1: I'm going to raise my hand to because also you know, 58 00:03:51,724 --> 00:03:55,364 Speaker 1: I see it in my stuff. Anyway, documentary has been 59 00:03:55,404 --> 00:03:59,844 Speaker 1: taken off. WSP apologizes and says that they are going 60 00:03:59,884 --> 00:04:04,684 Speaker 1: to re edit everything and that's kind of that's where 61 00:04:04,684 --> 00:04:07,684 Speaker 1: we stand right now. I have some very strong feelings 62 00:04:07,724 --> 00:04:10,244 Speaker 1: on this that go far beyond this the poker world, 63 00:04:11,044 --> 00:04:13,524 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you do too. I'll let you start 64 00:04:13,564 --> 00:04:15,964 Speaker 1: since I've kind of been hogging the mic with the 65 00:04:16,004 --> 00:04:16,964 Speaker 1: background of the drama. 66 00:04:17,044 --> 00:04:18,404 Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, it was a one off thing. 67 00:04:18,444 --> 00:04:22,764 Speaker 3: It's like when people are like accused of handsiness or 68 00:04:22,804 --> 00:04:23,644 Speaker 3: sexual harassment. 69 00:04:23,684 --> 00:04:25,884 Speaker 2: Right, usually not a usually not a one off thing. 70 00:04:25,924 --> 00:04:31,084 Speaker 3: It's usually a chronic behavior where you don't recognize a 71 00:04:31,444 --> 00:04:34,284 Speaker 3: boundary of permission. Yeah, by the way, if you ever 72 00:04:34,324 --> 00:04:36,724 Speaker 3: interview me for some shit like this, I hate watching 73 00:04:36,724 --> 00:04:38,644 Speaker 3: myself on TV, so you could probably. 74 00:04:38,724 --> 00:04:39,844 Speaker 2: Just make me say whatever. 75 00:04:39,884 --> 00:04:40,084 Speaker 3: I mean. 76 00:04:40,564 --> 00:04:41,884 Speaker 2: You're too lazy to ever check it. 77 00:04:43,724 --> 00:04:45,724 Speaker 1: It's so funny that you said that. I was actually 78 00:04:46,004 --> 00:04:48,604 Speaker 1: talking with my husband about this, and I was like, 79 00:04:48,684 --> 00:04:50,564 Speaker 1: I would lose my shit if this happened to me, 80 00:04:50,604 --> 00:04:54,004 Speaker 1: because I think both of us have appeared in dozens 81 00:04:54,044 --> 00:04:56,324 Speaker 1: of documentaries, like I don't even know how many, but 82 00:04:56,364 --> 00:04:59,204 Speaker 1: I never watch myself back, and I don't actually think 83 00:04:59,204 --> 00:05:02,964 Speaker 1: that Keating watched himself back until somebody quoted him back 84 00:05:03,004 --> 00:05:06,124 Speaker 1: to him and he was like, wait, I never said that, 85 00:05:06,284 --> 00:05:07,964 Speaker 1: and then he watched Now. 86 00:05:07,964 --> 00:05:12,404 Speaker 3: Look, in all seriousness, I am reluctant to give any 87 00:05:12,444 --> 00:05:17,684 Speaker 3: interviews for something that can be edited, even fairly or 88 00:05:17,724 --> 00:05:18,804 Speaker 3: relatively fairly. 89 00:05:18,924 --> 00:05:20,244 Speaker 2: Right, if you're you know, if you're. 90 00:05:21,724 --> 00:05:25,244 Speaker 3: Tapping an hour with me and you're gonna clip five 91 00:05:25,284 --> 00:05:27,764 Speaker 3: minutes out of it, or maybe fifteen seconds out of it, right, 92 00:05:27,804 --> 00:05:30,484 Speaker 3: Like that makes me very nervous, right, yeah, you know, 93 00:05:30,604 --> 00:05:32,244 Speaker 3: and I kind of feel like, and this is kind 94 00:05:32,244 --> 00:05:35,604 Speaker 3: of advice to people in general. I'm sure we have 95 00:05:35,644 --> 00:05:38,804 Speaker 3: a lot of influential listeners. Is like, yeah, you should 96 00:05:38,884 --> 00:05:42,404 Speaker 3: understand kind of like what the journalist's motivation is. If 97 00:05:42,404 --> 00:05:45,004 Speaker 3: the story's about you and your kind of primary character, 98 00:05:45,044 --> 00:05:47,004 Speaker 3: that's one thing. If you're kind of invited in to 99 00:05:47,044 --> 00:05:49,204 Speaker 3: provide like color commentary, then yeah, I. 100 00:05:49,604 --> 00:05:50,604 Speaker 2: Would be a little bit wary. 101 00:05:50,644 --> 00:05:53,204 Speaker 3: But look, I think there are a couple of things 102 00:05:53,244 --> 00:05:56,924 Speaker 3: going on here right, Like one is like a lack 103 00:05:57,044 --> 00:06:03,724 Speaker 3: of recognition of what like good journalism or even journalism. 104 00:06:03,284 --> 00:06:05,604 Speaker 2: Good or not really is So, what's the guy's name, 105 00:06:05,644 --> 00:06:06,684 Speaker 2: like Ianetti. 106 00:06:06,364 --> 00:06:11,924 Speaker 1: Some Dustin, Ionotti, Ionatti. Yeah, he I apologize if I'm 107 00:06:11,924 --> 00:06:13,564 Speaker 1: mispronouncing it, and it's whatever. 108 00:06:13,604 --> 00:06:14,884 Speaker 2: It's a it's an American eye. 109 00:06:15,444 --> 00:06:18,044 Speaker 3: You go with Dustin, we get to pronounce the you know, 110 00:06:18,044 --> 00:06:20,164 Speaker 3: if you're like Dante or something, then maybe you can 111 00:06:20,244 --> 00:06:21,004 Speaker 3: italian ify it. 112 00:06:21,084 --> 00:06:23,644 Speaker 2: Whatever. Dustin, we get to pick how to pronounce your 113 00:06:23,684 --> 00:06:24,084 Speaker 2: last name. 114 00:06:24,124 --> 00:06:28,804 Speaker 3: I feel like, Dustin, you're giving up your anyway. But 115 00:06:28,964 --> 00:06:34,524 Speaker 3: mister Dustin posted a lot of not pretentious, but a 116 00:06:34,524 --> 00:06:39,044 Speaker 3: lot of very long tweets on X where he's like, 117 00:06:39,444 --> 00:06:43,364 Speaker 3: you know, poker is losing mind share to chess and 118 00:06:43,724 --> 00:06:46,924 Speaker 3: f one and all these other things that should be 119 00:06:46,964 --> 00:06:50,764 Speaker 3: comprolled to poker, and we do much worse. And there 120 00:06:50,804 --> 00:06:51,964 Speaker 3: are a lot of reasons for this, but one of 121 00:06:51,964 --> 00:06:54,524 Speaker 3: the reasons is that we're not We're not good enough 122 00:06:54,524 --> 00:07:00,884 Speaker 3: at like storytelling and narrative, right, which, Okay, I think 123 00:07:00,924 --> 00:07:03,124 Speaker 3: people some people might say, well, okay, is it used 124 00:07:03,164 --> 00:07:06,764 Speaker 3: okay to use chatchpt to do like a little copy 125 00:07:06,804 --> 00:07:10,084 Speaker 3: of it on your on your script. Sure, I would 126 00:07:10,124 --> 00:07:13,004 Speaker 3: think it's totally fine. Right, Is it usefull to use 127 00:07:13,044 --> 00:07:17,124 Speaker 3: AI tools to clean up literal visual defects? I mean, 128 00:07:17,124 --> 00:07:19,644 Speaker 3: I think sure, it's probably fine. When you are attributing 129 00:07:19,684 --> 00:07:24,124 Speaker 3: though a quote to some person, then you're not allowed 130 00:07:24,124 --> 00:07:24,444 Speaker 3: to do that. 131 00:07:24,484 --> 00:07:27,124 Speaker 2: It's like a basic journalism thing. It's also weird. 132 00:07:27,364 --> 00:07:29,444 Speaker 3: It's also just weird because like, you tape all this 133 00:07:29,484 --> 00:07:33,964 Speaker 3: footage and like, yep, can you really not make the story. 134 00:07:33,844 --> 00:07:37,484 Speaker 1: It's two hundred and fifty hours. I just keep saying 135 00:07:37,524 --> 00:07:39,884 Speaker 1: that because it is mind boggling to me that you 136 00:07:39,884 --> 00:07:43,124 Speaker 1: would have that much footage and say that for the 137 00:07:43,284 --> 00:07:46,564 Speaker 1: sake of narrative, you needed to create something that you 138 00:07:46,564 --> 00:07:47,004 Speaker 1: didn't have. 139 00:07:47,244 --> 00:07:49,444 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of lazy, you know 140 00:07:49,484 --> 00:07:52,324 Speaker 3: what I mean, Like that in all that footage you 141 00:07:52,404 --> 00:07:53,324 Speaker 3: can't find. 142 00:07:54,644 --> 00:07:55,044 Speaker 2: The quote. 143 00:07:55,044 --> 00:08:01,604 Speaker 3: I mean, look, yeah, sometimes when when you're writing, you're like, boy, 144 00:08:02,524 --> 00:08:06,724 Speaker 3: I wish the subject had said that, right. Well, you 145 00:08:06,764 --> 00:08:08,244 Speaker 3: can do though, if you're a writer. 146 00:08:08,764 --> 00:08:10,884 Speaker 2: You can actually say it in your own voice. 147 00:08:10,924 --> 00:08:12,884 Speaker 3: You're like, that's a good idea, right, or you can 148 00:08:13,044 --> 00:08:16,444 Speaker 3: or or they are like legitimate ways to paraphraate. Well, 149 00:08:16,444 --> 00:08:21,284 Speaker 3: you know, sometimes if someone like jumping around the meaning 150 00:08:21,324 --> 00:08:23,764 Speaker 3: of something, then I mean, this is a little bit 151 00:08:23,764 --> 00:08:27,044 Speaker 3: of a fine art. The BBC got in trouble recently 152 00:08:27,164 --> 00:08:31,004 Speaker 3: for like splicing together two stippets of a Trump speech 153 00:08:31,044 --> 00:08:35,044 Speaker 3: on January sixth that were like thirty minutes apart or 154 00:08:35,044 --> 00:08:37,044 Speaker 3: something and made it seem like He's like. 155 00:08:38,044 --> 00:08:40,524 Speaker 2: Go attack the capitol right now. 156 00:08:40,604 --> 00:08:42,844 Speaker 3: Right, it was kind of like we need to go 157 00:08:42,924 --> 00:08:44,724 Speaker 3: to the capitol blah blah blah, half an hour. 158 00:08:44,684 --> 00:08:45,244 Speaker 2: Blah blah blah. 159 00:08:45,244 --> 00:08:47,764 Speaker 3: He was long winded and go march there right now, 160 00:08:47,804 --> 00:08:51,564 Speaker 3: and like okay, like that clearly was taken out of context, 161 00:08:51,644 --> 00:08:54,604 Speaker 3: right like yeah, like I don't know when you use 162 00:08:54,604 --> 00:08:56,684 Speaker 3: like the ellipses anyway, I'm getting like weird journalism stuff. 163 00:08:56,684 --> 00:08:58,524 Speaker 1: The point is it, like no, but you know what, 164 00:08:58,884 --> 00:09:02,484 Speaker 1: this weird journalism stuff is actually important because it's been 165 00:09:02,524 --> 00:09:04,924 Speaker 1: around for a very long time, and there are standards 166 00:09:04,964 --> 00:09:08,004 Speaker 1: for a reason. For instance, the New Yorker and I 167 00:09:08,044 --> 00:09:11,444 Speaker 1: think most magazines actually that I've ever written for do 168 00:09:11,604 --> 00:09:16,724 Speaker 1: not actually allow you to allow sources to look through 169 00:09:16,724 --> 00:09:20,724 Speaker 1: their quotes before you publish, right, Like that's because you're 170 00:09:21,284 --> 00:09:23,204 Speaker 1: you know, you don't want someone to be like, well, 171 00:09:23,364 --> 00:09:25,564 Speaker 1: you know, I don't actually want you know, to be 172 00:09:25,684 --> 00:09:27,964 Speaker 1: quoted saying this, Like you're on the record. You give 173 00:09:27,964 --> 00:09:31,084 Speaker 1: the interview, like that's it, but you record, right, You 174 00:09:31,124 --> 00:09:34,804 Speaker 1: have recordings, you have notes, you have all this stuff. 175 00:09:34,844 --> 00:09:37,484 Speaker 1: You give all of that to fact checkers who actually 176 00:09:37,564 --> 00:09:40,844 Speaker 1: go through and make sure that this all happened and 177 00:09:40,884 --> 00:09:44,604 Speaker 1: this all exists. The reason that we do this is 178 00:09:44,644 --> 00:09:49,124 Speaker 1: that in the past there have been egregious malpractice issues 179 00:09:49,484 --> 00:09:54,484 Speaker 1: with journalists who made shit up right and who actually 180 00:09:54,524 --> 00:09:58,084 Speaker 1: did craft the perfect characters or the perfect stories because 181 00:09:58,124 --> 00:10:02,724 Speaker 1: it suited their story whatever they were trying to tell, 182 00:10:02,964 --> 00:10:05,404 Speaker 1: and some of them got away with it. So at 183 00:10:05,444 --> 00:10:08,924 Speaker 1: The New Yorker, someone who absolutely broke my heart was 184 00:10:09,004 --> 00:10:12,164 Speaker 1: Joseph Mitchell, who died before I don't know if he 185 00:10:12,204 --> 00:10:13,964 Speaker 1: died before I was born, but you know, this is 186 00:10:14,004 --> 00:10:18,284 Speaker 1: a different era of New Yorker journalism, and Joseph Mitchell 187 00:10:18,364 --> 00:10:21,764 Speaker 1: was someone I had really really looked up to as 188 00:10:21,844 --> 00:10:25,444 Speaker 1: like a cub writer because his stories were just filled 189 00:10:25,444 --> 00:10:28,644 Speaker 1: with these amazing characters, these amazing quotes, these amazing scenes, 190 00:10:28,644 --> 00:10:31,084 Speaker 1: and I was like, wow, I wish I could do that. Right, 191 00:10:31,484 --> 00:10:34,844 Speaker 1: he writes nonfiction that's like fiction. He finds all of 192 00:10:34,884 --> 00:10:37,804 Speaker 1: these amazing things and he brings you there, and it 193 00:10:37,844 --> 00:10:41,884 Speaker 1: turns out his nonfiction was fiction. So as it turns 194 00:10:41,924 --> 00:10:45,164 Speaker 1: out he actually did exactly what you were suggesting that 195 00:10:45,244 --> 00:10:47,404 Speaker 1: and he's like, I wish this quote existed. I'm just 196 00:10:47,444 --> 00:10:49,444 Speaker 1: going to make it up and I'm going to create 197 00:10:49,484 --> 00:10:52,724 Speaker 1: a composite character based on the reporting I did, who 198 00:10:52,804 --> 00:10:54,964 Speaker 1: says all of these things that are very convenient for 199 00:10:55,004 --> 00:10:57,444 Speaker 1: me to say. Now. Like I said, different era, at 200 00:10:57,444 --> 00:11:01,044 Speaker 1: different time, the vaunted fact checking department did not work 201 00:11:01,084 --> 00:11:04,124 Speaker 1: the way that it does today. It slipped through, and 202 00:11:04,404 --> 00:11:06,244 Speaker 1: like I said, it broke my heart because it sets 203 00:11:06,284 --> 00:11:10,604 Speaker 1: you to an absolutely unattainable standard. I was looking at 204 00:11:10,644 --> 00:11:13,444 Speaker 1: this like, oh, this is what journalism is. No, this 205 00:11:13,564 --> 00:11:16,884 Speaker 1: is what fiction is. And the reason it was so clean, 206 00:11:17,284 --> 00:11:20,444 Speaker 1: with you know, all the bows beautifully tied, is because 207 00:11:20,524 --> 00:11:23,604 Speaker 1: it was fiction. Now he's a beautiful writer. But he's 208 00:11:23,644 --> 00:11:27,044 Speaker 1: a novelist, right, He's a fabulist. He is not actually 209 00:11:27,404 --> 00:11:32,164 Speaker 1: someone who is a journalist. And the reason I felt 210 00:11:32,204 --> 00:11:35,684 Speaker 1: betrayed was because he wasn't saying this is inspired by 211 00:11:35,764 --> 00:11:39,244 Speaker 1: He was portraying it as this is literally what happened, 212 00:11:39,284 --> 00:11:41,724 Speaker 1: and these are literally the people I talk to. When 213 00:11:41,804 --> 00:11:45,924 Speaker 1: you are a documentary filmmaker, you are saying I am 214 00:11:46,004 --> 00:11:49,164 Speaker 1: a documentarian, and we're not talking about someone like Ken Burns, right, 215 00:11:49,204 --> 00:11:51,484 Speaker 1: who's doing a historic documentary about people who are no 216 00:11:51,564 --> 00:11:54,764 Speaker 1: longer alive, and you have historic recreations, et cetera, et cetera. 217 00:11:55,404 --> 00:11:58,244 Speaker 1: What you're trying to be you know, true to the characters. 218 00:11:58,324 --> 00:12:00,844 Speaker 1: But you know John Adams and alive. Sorry so we 219 00:12:00,884 --> 00:12:03,524 Speaker 1: can't go and interview him. But when you're doing a 220 00:12:03,564 --> 00:12:07,164 Speaker 1: documentary in the modern era, in real time where you're 221 00:12:07,204 --> 00:12:10,644 Speaker 1: following people around, and you are saying, I am creating 222 00:12:10,684 --> 00:12:13,964 Speaker 1: a real experience, and I am showing you the unvarnished truth, 223 00:12:14,364 --> 00:12:17,924 Speaker 1: and then you use AI however, you use it without 224 00:12:17,924 --> 00:12:21,364 Speaker 1: telling anyone that you're using it, without asking people is 225 00:12:21,364 --> 00:12:23,324 Speaker 1: it okay to use it? There are just so many 226 00:12:23,364 --> 00:12:27,524 Speaker 1: issues here that I think are going to become more 227 00:12:27,604 --> 00:12:32,004 Speaker 1: and more important to deal with as AI becomes more prevalent. Right, 228 00:12:32,244 --> 00:12:35,164 Speaker 1: but this is something that's existed in journalism long, long 229 00:12:35,244 --> 00:12:36,084 Speaker 1: long before AI. 230 00:12:36,244 --> 00:12:38,404 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's like Jonah Lair. I mean, look, I would 231 00:12:38,404 --> 00:12:40,444 Speaker 3: see as a kissing cousin of this at least is 232 00:12:40,444 --> 00:12:45,804 Speaker 3: also the data fraud scandals in yes, academic absolutely which 233 00:12:45,884 --> 00:12:48,644 Speaker 3: often kind of found was like Jonah Lair, who is 234 00:12:48,724 --> 00:12:51,564 Speaker 3: Stephen Glass. Jason Blair was another or maybe young but 235 00:12:51,644 --> 00:12:54,724 Speaker 3: like but where like, yeah, it makes a narrative a 236 00:12:54,764 --> 00:12:58,724 Speaker 3: little bit too meet and perfect, right, And maybe I 237 00:12:58,764 --> 00:13:02,724 Speaker 3: have like a more general critique of like journalism where like, 238 00:13:02,764 --> 00:13:05,804 Speaker 3: you know, whenever I hear the word storytelling as it 239 00:13:05,844 --> 00:13:08,444 Speaker 3: pertains journalism, I get a little bit nervous, right, because 240 00:13:08,484 --> 00:13:13,084 Speaker 3: I think that often involves, at least over simplification. It 241 00:13:13,164 --> 00:13:17,924 Speaker 3: often involves you know, turning characters into like good and evil, 242 00:13:18,044 --> 00:13:22,364 Speaker 3: sometimes caricatures a little bit. And look, I think I 243 00:13:22,404 --> 00:13:24,884 Speaker 3: mean in Marie, the books that we write take a 244 00:13:24,924 --> 00:13:28,004 Speaker 3: long time and involve a lot of research, right, you know, 245 00:13:28,084 --> 00:13:30,844 Speaker 3: to me, it's also laziness kind of thing, right, where 246 00:13:30,884 --> 00:13:32,444 Speaker 3: like you should be able if you know, I talked 247 00:13:32,444 --> 00:13:34,644 Speaker 3: to two hundred people from my book, I should be 248 00:13:34,644 --> 00:13:38,484 Speaker 3: able to find and I can also consult source material, 249 00:13:38,484 --> 00:13:40,284 Speaker 3: I can read other books, right, Like, if I can't 250 00:13:40,324 --> 00:13:45,204 Speaker 3: find interesting stories out of those two hundred interviews, yeah, 251 00:13:45,204 --> 00:13:47,284 Speaker 3: then okay, that's a problem. 252 00:13:47,564 --> 00:13:49,564 Speaker 2: It's a problem. I mean, what's weird about this world? 253 00:13:49,604 --> 00:13:54,564 Speaker 3: Shirts poke video is like the quotes from uh Keating 254 00:13:55,084 --> 00:13:58,084 Speaker 3: are like similar to things that he would say. 255 00:13:57,884 --> 00:13:59,404 Speaker 2: And they're not really advancing them there. 256 00:13:59,484 --> 00:14:01,604 Speaker 1: It's like it's just no, it was just it was 257 00:14:01,684 --> 00:14:04,524 Speaker 1: just it was very Yeah, I don't understand. But by 258 00:14:04,604 --> 00:14:08,124 Speaker 1: the way, for listeners, just a bit of context. You 259 00:14:08,164 --> 00:14:11,044 Speaker 1: threw a lot of names out. Jonah Lair was a 260 00:14:11,124 --> 00:14:14,404 Speaker 1: journalist with The New Yorker as well, and he was 261 00:14:14,564 --> 00:14:19,804 Speaker 1: fired for just major issues of fabrication. The reason he 262 00:14:19,924 --> 00:14:25,244 Speaker 1: was caught was inventing a quote by Bob Dylan, right, 263 00:14:25,444 --> 00:14:27,964 Speaker 1: the one person who you would never invent a quote 264 00:14:28,004 --> 00:14:31,004 Speaker 1: from because the fans Bob Dylan fans man, first of all, 265 00:14:31,044 --> 00:14:34,364 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan's still alive. Secondly, Bob Dylan fans, they have 266 00:14:34,444 --> 00:14:37,964 Speaker 1: gone through every single word that man has ever said 267 00:14:37,964 --> 00:14:41,604 Speaker 1: with a fine tooth com and believe me, immediately when 268 00:14:41,604 --> 00:14:44,284 Speaker 1: this quote came out, people were like, oh my god, 269 00:14:44,444 --> 00:14:46,644 Speaker 1: when did he say this? It's such a beautiful quote 270 00:14:46,644 --> 00:14:49,524 Speaker 1: about the nature of creativity. Never said it right, but 271 00:14:49,564 --> 00:14:51,644 Speaker 1: it was. It was very convenient. So that was yeah, 272 00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:55,644 Speaker 1: that was jonah Laire And I think your similarity the 273 00:14:55,644 --> 00:14:59,924 Speaker 1: similarity with data fabrication is if you're a scientist who 274 00:15:00,004 --> 00:15:03,124 Speaker 1: has kind of a hypothesis in mind and the data 275 00:15:03,204 --> 00:15:06,564 Speaker 1: almost fit, you know, it can be very tempting to 276 00:15:06,604 --> 00:15:08,764 Speaker 1: be like, let's set massage this a little bit, right, 277 00:15:09,124 --> 00:15:12,884 Speaker 1: let's take out these data points, let's control for this variable. 278 00:15:12,924 --> 00:15:16,204 Speaker 1: P hacking right, Like that PA hacking is the nice 279 00:15:16,764 --> 00:15:19,964 Speaker 1: version of it where you don't actually fabricate anything, but 280 00:15:20,124 --> 00:15:23,204 Speaker 1: you start controlling for random things so that your P 281 00:15:23,404 --> 00:15:26,604 Speaker 1: value becomes significant, so that you hit that significant point 282 00:15:26,804 --> 00:15:30,164 Speaker 1: five thresholder and you're like, ha, I told you. But 283 00:15:30,204 --> 00:15:33,364 Speaker 1: then when asked like, hey, why did you control for this? 284 00:15:33,564 --> 00:15:35,644 Speaker 1: Like why did you control for that? Like is there 285 00:15:35,644 --> 00:15:40,004 Speaker 1: any a priori reason or hypothesis. Oftentimes the answer is like, well, 286 00:15:40,084 --> 00:15:43,284 Speaker 1: because it became significant only then, So that's kind of 287 00:15:43,284 --> 00:15:45,644 Speaker 1: the benign version. And the less benign version is when 288 00:15:45,684 --> 00:15:50,044 Speaker 1: you literally create data points or take away data points, 289 00:15:50,404 --> 00:15:54,364 Speaker 1: or fabricate data out of out of thin air, which 290 00:15:54,404 --> 00:15:58,804 Speaker 1: happened with allegedly happened with Dan Arieli and Francesca Gino 291 00:15:59,484 --> 00:16:02,524 Speaker 1: in some of those studies that are being investigated as 292 00:16:02,524 --> 00:16:02,924 Speaker 1: we speak. 293 00:16:09,404 --> 00:16:10,884 Speaker 2: I'll be right back after this break. 294 00:16:17,124 --> 00:16:19,164 Speaker 3: Yeah, you get different rationales for this, right. Sometimes it's 295 00:16:19,204 --> 00:16:24,244 Speaker 3: kind of this like post modern Oh, everybody's doing it. 296 00:16:24,244 --> 00:16:26,644 Speaker 2: It's all a game for power and influence. Right. 297 00:16:26,924 --> 00:16:29,484 Speaker 3: Sometimes it can have like more of an ideological basis, 298 00:16:29,524 --> 00:16:30,844 Speaker 3: like you know what, we're on the right side of 299 00:16:30,884 --> 00:16:35,924 Speaker 3: things and the other chide embellishes and cheats and so like. 300 00:16:37,204 --> 00:16:39,084 Speaker 3: And by the way, you can play plenty of examples 301 00:16:39,444 --> 00:16:41,284 Speaker 3: of Democrats doing this, but like one that comes to 302 00:16:41,324 --> 00:16:45,204 Speaker 3: mind is jd Vance, the vice presidential nominee in the 303 00:16:45,204 --> 00:16:49,764 Speaker 3: campaign last year, was like, Yeah, these media narratives I'm paraphrasing, this. 304 00:16:49,724 --> 00:16:51,364 Speaker 2: Is not direct quote. 305 00:16:52,644 --> 00:16:55,724 Speaker 3: These media narratives about Haitian immigrants and dogs and cats 306 00:16:55,764 --> 00:16:59,924 Speaker 3: might be a little bit exaggerated. However, democrats lie about 307 00:17:00,684 --> 00:17:03,524 Speaker 3: shit like this all the time, and we need something 308 00:17:03,564 --> 00:17:05,044 Speaker 3: to grab them me to use attention. It was kind 309 00:17:05,084 --> 00:17:06,604 Speaker 3: of like a masscof moment where he's like a little 310 00:17:06,644 --> 00:17:10,444 Speaker 3: bit more honest about that, and and you know, you 311 00:17:10,484 --> 00:17:13,204 Speaker 3: see that kind of thing happen all the. 312 00:17:13,644 --> 00:17:18,244 Speaker 2: Time, right, I mean I don't know. 313 00:17:18,284 --> 00:17:20,124 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, and there's a difference again between 314 00:17:20,204 --> 00:17:24,884 Speaker 3: like lies and exaggerations. I mean, some of the during 315 00:17:24,884 --> 00:17:27,924 Speaker 3: the racial recogning, I think, you know, the behavior of 316 00:17:27,924 --> 00:17:31,284 Speaker 3: certain people was exaggerated very much. I mean, there's lots 317 00:17:31,284 --> 00:17:34,724 Speaker 3: of misinformation out there. Still, there's a lot of information 318 00:17:34,724 --> 00:17:37,444 Speaker 3: about like there's a big controversy on Twitter about like 319 00:17:37,644 --> 00:17:40,964 Speaker 3: AI data centers and how much water they use. I 320 00:17:40,964 --> 00:17:45,604 Speaker 3: mean there's a lot of but like, but it's also 321 00:17:45,724 --> 00:17:50,924 Speaker 3: sometimes like a lack of like formal training. Right, if 322 00:17:50,924 --> 00:17:53,084 Speaker 3: people kind of get into, like I guess more and 323 00:17:53,164 --> 00:17:56,404 Speaker 3: more people that kind of get into like content creation 324 00:17:56,724 --> 00:17:59,924 Speaker 3: don't kind of I don't know if it's actually empirically true, Right, 325 00:18:00,124 --> 00:18:02,284 Speaker 3: I imagine a fewer them kind of go to school 326 00:18:02,404 --> 00:18:06,124 Speaker 3: for journalism or whatnot. Right, they can kind of go 327 00:18:06,324 --> 00:18:09,484 Speaker 3: like viral in their own ways potentially. 328 00:18:09,124 --> 00:18:10,164 Speaker 2: And. 329 00:18:11,204 --> 00:18:14,124 Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, when I was kind of the editor 330 00:18:14,164 --> 00:18:15,804 Speaker 3: in chief of five thirty eight, which is partly a 331 00:18:15,804 --> 00:18:18,124 Speaker 3: ceremonial title, but you did kind of notice difference. We 332 00:18:18,204 --> 00:18:21,844 Speaker 3: mostly did hire people that were like, had a background 333 00:18:21,844 --> 00:18:25,684 Speaker 3: in kind of capital jay journalism, and I think that 334 00:18:25,844 --> 00:18:27,204 Speaker 3: helped with this kind of thing at least. 335 00:18:27,684 --> 00:18:30,764 Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, well, you know, I think you're making a 336 00:18:30,804 --> 00:18:33,804 Speaker 1: really important point in that, you know, we are living 337 00:18:33,884 --> 00:18:38,444 Speaker 1: at a time where it's it can be really difficult 338 00:18:38,484 --> 00:18:41,124 Speaker 1: to discern, you know, what's the truth and what isn't right, 339 00:18:41,204 --> 00:18:44,164 Speaker 1: where like the lines are so fungible, like there's so 340 00:18:44,324 --> 00:18:48,284 Speaker 1: much misinformation on every side, and it's true in politics 341 00:18:48,324 --> 00:18:52,524 Speaker 1: and and everything, that it feels like when you then 342 00:18:52,724 --> 00:18:57,004 Speaker 1: intentionally do it right, like you're you're just muddying already 343 00:18:57,044 --> 00:19:00,884 Speaker 1: muddy waters. And to me, it's all, you know, as 344 00:19:01,004 --> 00:19:03,284 Speaker 1: as our listeners know, I'm working on a book about cheating, 345 00:19:03,604 --> 00:19:05,964 Speaker 1: and it's all kind of these you know, forms of 346 00:19:06,564 --> 00:19:10,644 Speaker 1: kind of cheating with what your profession is supposed to do. Unless, 347 00:19:10,764 --> 00:19:14,284 Speaker 1: like I said, I don't actually necessarily have a problem 348 00:19:14,324 --> 00:19:18,644 Speaker 1: with using AI if you say, like how you're doing it, 349 00:19:18,884 --> 00:19:21,364 Speaker 1: if you ask people for permission, if you kind of 350 00:19:21,364 --> 00:19:24,444 Speaker 1: explain what you're going to be doing if you disclose it, right, 351 00:19:24,524 --> 00:19:27,564 Speaker 1: if you say, like, hey, like this some of this 352 00:19:27,644 --> 00:19:31,564 Speaker 1: has been generated with the help of AI for narrative clarity, right, 353 00:19:31,644 --> 00:19:35,444 Speaker 1: like whatever it is, I personally wouldn't do that, but like, 354 00:19:35,684 --> 00:19:38,324 Speaker 1: at least do that and at least kind of have 355 00:19:38,444 --> 00:19:42,164 Speaker 1: the decency to ask permission from the people who you 356 00:19:42,324 --> 00:19:46,284 Speaker 1: are interviewing, right to say, like, is it okay if 357 00:19:46,284 --> 00:19:48,844 Speaker 1: we if we edit you in this way? Is it 358 00:19:48,884 --> 00:19:54,244 Speaker 1: okay if we use AI to kind of to move 359 00:19:54,404 --> 00:19:57,564 Speaker 1: forward the narrative. I don't even remember what the wording is. 360 00:19:57,884 --> 00:20:01,244 Speaker 1: But you have to ask for permission. Nay, I'm sure 361 00:20:01,244 --> 00:20:05,644 Speaker 1: that before you do documentaries like like I do, you 362 00:20:05,684 --> 00:20:08,724 Speaker 1: go through an appearance release form right where you actually 363 00:20:08,764 --> 00:20:11,404 Speaker 1: have to got all these things and sign it. I 364 00:20:11,644 --> 00:20:15,884 Speaker 1: read that shit, and I actually read it really carefully, 365 00:20:15,924 --> 00:20:18,684 Speaker 1: and I make changes, and I make changes that say 366 00:20:18,684 --> 00:20:21,044 Speaker 1: that no, like, actually, you can't edit this way. No, 367 00:20:21,324 --> 00:20:24,364 Speaker 1: I don't consent to the use this way. No, you 368 00:20:24,444 --> 00:20:26,844 Speaker 1: must ask my permission if you're doing this or that 369 00:20:27,284 --> 00:20:29,564 Speaker 1: all of these things. And I've had times when I've 370 00:20:29,604 --> 00:20:34,004 Speaker 1: walked away when I haven't appeared in projects because they 371 00:20:34,044 --> 00:20:38,124 Speaker 1: weren't okay with my edits. And I had one particular 372 00:20:38,244 --> 00:20:41,524 Speaker 1: time last year that was really frustrating because it was 373 00:20:41,524 --> 00:20:45,164 Speaker 1: for this huge Canadian show and we spent multiple hours 374 00:20:45,564 --> 00:20:47,644 Speaker 1: filming and it was all this stuff, and then they 375 00:20:47,644 --> 00:20:50,724 Speaker 1: gave me, like almost as an afterthought, this absolutely batshit 376 00:20:50,844 --> 00:20:54,324 Speaker 1: crazy release that I then edited the crap out of 377 00:20:54,484 --> 00:20:57,244 Speaker 1: and we couldn't come to an agreement. So it was 378 00:20:57,524 --> 00:20:59,324 Speaker 1: they had spent tons of money, right, they had flown 379 00:20:59,324 --> 00:21:02,284 Speaker 1: out a whole crew, rented at a hotel room like, 380 00:21:02,364 --> 00:21:05,324 Speaker 1: done all this stuff with me. I had spent all 381 00:21:05,364 --> 00:21:08,164 Speaker 1: this time, you know, it was a day gone out 382 00:21:08,204 --> 00:21:09,604 Speaker 1: of my life. And I was like, you know what, 383 00:21:09,724 --> 00:21:12,044 Speaker 1: but I'm sorry, you're not going to be using this 384 00:21:12,204 --> 00:21:16,284 Speaker 1: because I'm not comfortable with the liberties that you may 385 00:21:16,444 --> 00:21:19,164 Speaker 1: or may not take. Right. Maybe they it would have 386 00:21:19,204 --> 00:21:22,084 Speaker 1: been unedited, but the things that I was agreeing to, 387 00:21:22,244 --> 00:21:24,724 Speaker 1: I was like, I am not okay with that. I 388 00:21:24,804 --> 00:21:26,924 Speaker 1: want to know exactly how the things. And it was 389 00:21:26,924 --> 00:21:30,084 Speaker 1: political too, right, it was about Trump, so Nate, you know, 390 00:21:30,204 --> 00:21:32,924 Speaker 1: like that kind of stuff. You just have to be 391 00:21:33,004 --> 00:21:35,684 Speaker 1: so careful that people are not going to be using 392 00:21:35,724 --> 00:21:38,324 Speaker 1: it out of context, juxtaposing it with images or with 393 00:21:38,444 --> 00:21:42,444 Speaker 1: things that make it seem different from your intention that 394 00:21:42,484 --> 00:21:45,244 Speaker 1: they remain true to kind of what you said and 395 00:21:45,684 --> 00:21:47,804 Speaker 1: how you intended it to be perceived. 396 00:21:48,404 --> 00:21:52,124 Speaker 3: Yeah, anything, This is very inside baseball. Anything involving traditional 397 00:21:52,204 --> 00:21:57,244 Speaker 3: produced television or video or film, right, is like quite 398 00:21:57,404 --> 00:22:00,244 Speaker 3: labor intensive relative to the amount of time that the 399 00:22:00,284 --> 00:22:03,124 Speaker 3: eventual and product uses up, including what they able to 400 00:22:03,164 --> 00:22:05,764 Speaker 3: shoot a lot, a lot a lot of footage with 401 00:22:05,844 --> 00:22:07,924 Speaker 3: you and you got to go to some studio, and 402 00:22:07,964 --> 00:22:11,204 Speaker 3: it just usually it always takes there's multiple takes. It 403 00:22:11,324 --> 00:22:16,724 Speaker 3: just always takes longer to produce good taped television than 404 00:22:16,764 --> 00:22:19,324 Speaker 3: you might think, right, which is kind of why I'm 405 00:22:19,364 --> 00:22:20,724 Speaker 3: I'll go on a podcast, you know what I mean. 406 00:22:20,724 --> 00:22:23,524 Speaker 3: I don't have to like retake things. We very occasionally 407 00:22:23,564 --> 00:22:25,724 Speaker 3: retake things because we stumble on our words and stuff, Maria. 408 00:22:25,764 --> 00:22:26,884 Speaker 2: But like, look a. 409 00:22:26,804 --> 00:22:30,124 Speaker 3: Lot of times when there's bad behavior, people say, well, 410 00:22:30,164 --> 00:22:32,604 Speaker 3: what about this other thing that's also bad, and it's like, okay. 411 00:22:33,084 --> 00:22:37,004 Speaker 3: We can debate about how much of an ethical sin 412 00:22:37,764 --> 00:22:41,284 Speaker 3: is it to quote somebody out of context, or how 413 00:22:41,364 --> 00:22:44,204 Speaker 3: much of a sin is it to let's say, you 414 00:22:44,204 --> 00:22:47,604 Speaker 3: give a long interview to documentary and they take fifteen 415 00:22:47,604 --> 00:22:49,324 Speaker 3: seconds out of that it's meant to portray you in 416 00:22:49,364 --> 00:22:51,484 Speaker 3: a bad light out of the three hour interview for 417 00:22:51,524 --> 00:22:52,524 Speaker 3: whatever grudge that they have. 418 00:22:52,724 --> 00:22:53,444 Speaker 2: Right, we can. 419 00:22:53,364 --> 00:22:57,004 Speaker 3: Debate is that unethical? Is it tantamount to like a 420 00:22:57,084 --> 00:22:57,964 Speaker 3: journalistic sin? 421 00:22:58,244 --> 00:22:58,444 Speaker 2: Right? 422 00:22:58,644 --> 00:23:01,404 Speaker 3: And I might say more than most people that it 423 00:23:01,444 --> 00:23:05,484 Speaker 3: is actually right. However, the things that are clearly journalistic 424 00:23:05,524 --> 00:23:08,444 Speaker 3: sins we should not absolve because of the EDU case. 425 00:23:08,484 --> 00:23:10,364 Speaker 2: This is not an edge case, right, This is not 426 00:23:10,684 --> 00:23:11,364 Speaker 2: this is this. 427 00:23:11,284 --> 00:23:15,124 Speaker 1: Is not an edge case. And I hate the excuse that, oh, well, 428 00:23:15,164 --> 00:23:17,924 Speaker 1: it's not that much in the grand context of things. Right, 429 00:23:18,284 --> 00:23:20,804 Speaker 1: it's only a little, it's only a few lines here, 430 00:23:20,924 --> 00:23:23,684 Speaker 1: it's only it's not all the players, it's only no 431 00:23:23,884 --> 00:23:27,204 Speaker 1: that that doesn't make it more okay, Right, Like I 432 00:23:27,244 --> 00:23:30,964 Speaker 1: only fabricated this one quote in my article, Natee. The 433 00:23:30,964 --> 00:23:33,604 Speaker 1: rest of it is from well almost certainly, No, I 434 00:23:33,644 --> 00:23:36,844 Speaker 1: only I only fabricated that one data point to make 435 00:23:36,884 --> 00:23:38,324 Speaker 1: it all max, which. 436 00:23:38,164 --> 00:23:39,324 Speaker 2: Is almost certainly. 437 00:23:40,524 --> 00:23:44,444 Speaker 3: Like why would you like, yes, you know, yeah, I 438 00:23:44,444 --> 00:23:46,404 Speaker 3: mean if you're like, oh, I have this one annoying 439 00:23:46,444 --> 00:23:49,444 Speaker 3: thing that like it's going to take extra time, but 440 00:23:49,484 --> 00:23:51,244 Speaker 3: in order to do that, I have to like cheat 441 00:23:51,364 --> 00:23:53,164 Speaker 3: and like, you know, just so it's just so it 442 00:23:53,324 --> 00:23:55,644 Speaker 3: was also like it it's also kind of arrogant to 443 00:23:55,724 --> 00:23:58,164 Speaker 3: think that I believe this guy, by the way, isn't 444 00:23:58,164 --> 00:24:00,364 Speaker 3: he like the video producer for Alan Keating too? 445 00:24:01,284 --> 00:24:03,964 Speaker 1: He is? Yeah, that's the weird thing. So this guy 446 00:24:03,964 --> 00:24:07,364 Speaker 1: who actually blew the whistle is someone who employed this 447 00:24:07,444 --> 00:24:12,524 Speaker 1: company to run his is YouTube channel and so had 448 00:24:12,524 --> 00:24:16,844 Speaker 1: been working with them for about a year. So that's honestly, 449 00:24:16,924 --> 00:24:19,004 Speaker 1: like to me, that's even that makes it even worse, 450 00:24:19,164 --> 00:24:24,444 Speaker 1: Like Nate, imagine like one of our producers on Risky Business, right, 451 00:24:24,524 --> 00:24:26,364 Speaker 1: we've been working with them, and all of a sudden 452 00:24:26,364 --> 00:24:30,284 Speaker 1: we find out that they just ai generated an episode 453 00:24:30,324 --> 00:24:34,004 Speaker 1: for us without asking us, Like that would that would 454 00:24:34,044 --> 00:24:37,684 Speaker 1: make it worse if they actually then said like, hey, 455 00:24:38,524 --> 00:24:40,924 Speaker 1: but we've been working together for multiple years now, so 456 00:24:41,004 --> 00:24:44,364 Speaker 1: we have a great working relationship. So it's okay, Like 457 00:24:44,524 --> 00:24:46,804 Speaker 1: we and we remain true. We know Nate and Maria. 458 00:24:46,844 --> 00:24:48,644 Speaker 1: We've worked with them for so long that we know 459 00:24:48,844 --> 00:24:51,044 Speaker 1: what their thoughts are and where their minds are, and 460 00:24:51,084 --> 00:24:54,124 Speaker 1: so we promised that this episode was true to their 461 00:24:54,204 --> 00:24:57,324 Speaker 1: spirit unless we both die in a fatal accident, which 462 00:24:57,364 --> 00:24:58,444 Speaker 1: I hope doesn't happen. 463 00:24:58,724 --> 00:24:59,404 Speaker 2: I hope, there's. 464 00:24:59,324 --> 00:25:03,684 Speaker 3: Never imagine let's I mean, now there's these things, these 465 00:25:03,684 --> 00:25:09,764 Speaker 3: fucking AI companions like your dead fucking husband, yeah. 466 00:25:08,644 --> 00:25:10,484 Speaker 2: Child or stuff animal. 467 00:25:11,484 --> 00:25:16,884 Speaker 1: By the way, producers, producers just like just to just 468 00:25:16,924 --> 00:25:20,364 Speaker 1: to make sure that you understand, it's still not okay 469 00:25:20,404 --> 00:25:23,804 Speaker 1: if we die tragically, just do an episode yourself. 470 00:25:23,844 --> 00:25:24,124 Speaker 2: You can. 471 00:25:24,444 --> 00:25:28,324 Speaker 1: You can introduce yourself as hosts and and talk about 472 00:25:28,684 --> 00:25:31,084 Speaker 1: you know what pain pains in the asses we were 473 00:25:31,124 --> 00:25:33,644 Speaker 1: to work with while we were still alive, and do 474 00:25:33,764 --> 00:25:37,124 Speaker 1: a nice episode without our own voices. Yeah, it's just 475 00:25:37,524 --> 00:25:39,484 Speaker 1: you know that in some ways makes it even worse 476 00:25:39,564 --> 00:25:44,764 Speaker 1: because they're betraying an existing relationship, right, there's a level 477 00:25:44,764 --> 00:25:47,004 Speaker 1: of trust there where like, if it's someone I've worked 478 00:25:47,044 --> 00:25:49,044 Speaker 1: with a lot, I would trust that they wouldn't do 479 00:25:49,084 --> 00:25:51,764 Speaker 1: that to me, right, that they would actually respect what 480 00:25:51,844 --> 00:25:53,684 Speaker 1: I said, how I said it, et cetera, et cetera. 481 00:25:53,964 --> 00:25:56,844 Speaker 1: To have someone it's almost it's worse to have it 482 00:25:56,884 --> 00:25:58,844 Speaker 1: be someone I've worked with than to have it be 483 00:25:58,964 --> 00:26:01,244 Speaker 1: someone that I'm working with for the first time. So 484 00:26:01,364 --> 00:26:04,724 Speaker 1: I don't actually think that that absolves them in any way. 485 00:26:05,164 --> 00:26:08,764 Speaker 1: And you know, it was actually a very interesting impulse 486 00:26:08,844 --> 00:26:14,644 Speaker 1: on Allan Keating's part two air this on Twitter as 487 00:26:14,684 --> 00:26:18,444 Speaker 1: opposed to going directly to the producer behind the scenes, 488 00:26:18,764 --> 00:26:20,564 Speaker 1: because if he had gone behind the scenes, I don't 489 00:26:20,604 --> 00:26:23,124 Speaker 1: think any of probably this would not have come out. 490 00:26:23,284 --> 00:26:26,324 Speaker 1: But I think that he clearly felt betrayed, right, Like, 491 00:26:26,364 --> 00:26:29,724 Speaker 1: that's a very public way of doing it. And then 492 00:26:30,084 --> 00:26:32,604 Speaker 1: the original apology. I don't remember what his response to 493 00:26:32,644 --> 00:26:34,244 Speaker 1: it was, but it was like, are you kidding me? 494 00:26:34,444 --> 00:26:38,244 Speaker 1: Like the snow like that's not an apology. Yeah, apparently 495 00:26:38,324 --> 00:26:42,524 Speaker 1: he said that the apology does not deserve a response, 496 00:26:42,564 --> 00:26:45,444 Speaker 1: and you know why, So he was pissed, right, So 497 00:26:45,524 --> 00:26:47,404 Speaker 1: this is a way to take it to the public form. 498 00:26:47,724 --> 00:26:49,404 Speaker 1: I'm not actually sure why he took it down. 499 00:26:49,484 --> 00:26:52,884 Speaker 3: These guys who are like very promotion e They're like, oh, 500 00:26:53,044 --> 00:26:54,724 Speaker 3: y'all help promote your shit, and you're like, yeah, this 501 00:26:54,804 --> 00:26:58,884 Speaker 3: guy seems a little cringe. But maybe I need some 502 00:26:59,004 --> 00:27:01,844 Speaker 3: cringe help, right, Maybe need some cringe help who will 503 00:27:02,244 --> 00:27:04,724 Speaker 3: boost my social media channels and blah blah blah. I mean, 504 00:27:05,164 --> 00:27:07,084 Speaker 3: how much poker content do you watch? 505 00:27:08,724 --> 00:27:13,684 Speaker 1: I watch poker content in the form of like instructional videos, right, 506 00:27:14,084 --> 00:27:17,444 Speaker 1: Like I will watch run it once videos, I will 507 00:27:17,564 --> 00:27:23,044 Speaker 1: watch the course that Isaac Caxton and you know, Nick 508 00:27:23,084 --> 00:27:27,844 Speaker 1: Petrangelo and Dan Divores put out for gto lab I 509 00:27:27,924 --> 00:27:30,044 Speaker 1: will watch kind of some of the videos that like 510 00:27:30,084 --> 00:27:34,124 Speaker 1: gto Wizard does. I usually watch poker content to learn, 511 00:27:34,324 --> 00:27:37,284 Speaker 1: and I don't usually watch kind of the dramatic what's 512 00:27:37,324 --> 00:27:41,044 Speaker 1: happening in the world of poker content. I did watch 513 00:27:42,124 --> 00:27:46,044 Speaker 1: the first episode of this documentary. I ended up watching 514 00:27:46,084 --> 00:27:50,084 Speaker 1: it on two time speed because it was really I'm sorry. 515 00:27:50,684 --> 00:27:52,764 Speaker 1: Even before I knew about the AI, I was not 516 00:27:52,964 --> 00:27:57,524 Speaker 1: enjoying it. I found it quite boring. I don't usually 517 00:27:57,564 --> 00:27:59,844 Speaker 1: like to say I didn't say this at all publicly 518 00:27:59,884 --> 00:28:02,164 Speaker 1: because I didn't. I don't like to say anything negative 519 00:28:02,204 --> 00:28:05,284 Speaker 1: about content that might bring more people, you know, into 520 00:28:05,284 --> 00:28:08,244 Speaker 1: poker or whatnot. Like it's not like there was anything 521 00:28:08,284 --> 00:28:09,804 Speaker 1: bad about it. I just didn't really I think it 522 00:28:09,844 --> 00:28:12,964 Speaker 1: was good. But now that we know that it was 523 00:28:13,004 --> 00:28:17,684 Speaker 1: boring while taking these liberties with with people's uh speech, 524 00:28:17,804 --> 00:28:21,524 Speaker 1: now I feel perfectly entitled to say that after one episode, 525 00:28:21,604 --> 00:28:23,604 Speaker 1: I did not think it was good and I never 526 00:28:23,724 --> 00:28:28,644 Speaker 1: watch video on more than one X speed. I actually 527 00:28:28,644 --> 00:28:31,804 Speaker 1: am someone who listens in real time. I do not 528 00:28:31,924 --> 00:28:35,124 Speaker 1: speech it up. I spoke up that tells you something. 529 00:28:36,804 --> 00:28:38,844 Speaker 2: I'm a you know, I'm a good one point too. 530 00:28:38,844 --> 00:28:41,764 Speaker 3: By the way, Listen, you gotta be careful with the 531 00:28:41,844 --> 00:28:43,204 Speaker 3: one point two one point three in the show. 532 00:28:43,244 --> 00:28:44,964 Speaker 2: I'm a pretty a pretty fast talker. 533 00:28:45,044 --> 00:28:48,724 Speaker 3: You can't apply your generic one point two's and one 534 00:28:48,724 --> 00:28:51,884 Speaker 3: point two fives and one point threes to risky business. 535 00:28:51,924 --> 00:28:53,364 Speaker 2: I'm telling you. I'm telling you that much. 536 00:28:54,844 --> 00:28:57,404 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's this perpetual debate in the kind of poker 537 00:28:57,444 --> 00:29:00,644 Speaker 3: media world about like content that's made for pros versus 538 00:29:00,724 --> 00:29:02,884 Speaker 3: content that's made for for. 539 00:29:02,964 --> 00:29:04,764 Speaker 2: New players rec players. 540 00:29:04,884 --> 00:29:05,044 Speaker 1: Right. 541 00:29:05,284 --> 00:29:07,484 Speaker 3: You know, I think I probably agree with a critique that, like, 542 00:29:08,724 --> 00:29:13,684 Speaker 3: too much of this content is too pro driven. Right, 543 00:29:15,764 --> 00:29:21,484 Speaker 3: the content has shifted more toward heigh stakes cash games 544 00:29:21,524 --> 00:29:24,164 Speaker 3: stream cash games because like you get a little bit 545 00:29:24,164 --> 00:29:25,724 Speaker 3: more personality in there. 546 00:29:25,884 --> 00:29:27,044 Speaker 2: I mean, all the. 547 00:29:26,964 --> 00:29:28,884 Speaker 3: Critics are like partly true. Like one critique is that 548 00:29:29,044 --> 00:29:34,204 Speaker 3: like before computers and solvers, there was more variety in 549 00:29:34,284 --> 00:29:39,644 Speaker 3: how people played, and so you have more personalities and 550 00:29:39,684 --> 00:29:41,004 Speaker 3: more different playing styles. 551 00:29:41,124 --> 00:29:44,724 Speaker 2: Right, I think that's basically true. Right. I think now 552 00:29:44,844 --> 00:29:50,204 Speaker 2: that like with a theoretically unsound. 553 00:29:51,444 --> 00:29:53,844 Speaker 3: But good poker sense kind of skill set, I mean, 554 00:29:53,924 --> 00:29:56,644 Speaker 3: like this Rocky might have that, frankly right, which is 555 00:29:56,644 --> 00:29:59,404 Speaker 3: part of why he was instantly inducted into the Hall 556 00:29:59,444 --> 00:29:59,844 Speaker 3: of Fame. 557 00:30:00,564 --> 00:30:03,444 Speaker 1: And for people who don't remember, Mike Musraki is the 558 00:30:03,484 --> 00:30:08,044 Speaker 1: winner of the World Series of Poker main event this year, 559 00:30:08,244 --> 00:30:13,004 Speaker 1: the Grinder, and he also won the Players Championship, and yes, 560 00:30:13,124 --> 00:30:16,604 Speaker 1: was immediately inducted into the Hall of Fame after unprecedented 561 00:30:16,644 --> 00:30:17,644 Speaker 1: no one's ever done that before. 562 00:30:17,684 --> 00:30:22,124 Speaker 3: Pretty good, pretty good summer, I would say, But in general, 563 00:30:22,244 --> 00:30:27,044 Speaker 3: you've had a shift away from like mainstream broadcast stuff toward. 564 00:30:27,324 --> 00:30:29,324 Speaker 2: Like poker Go. And you know, I like poker Go, 565 00:30:29,444 --> 00:30:30,444 Speaker 2: I like their tournaments. 566 00:30:30,924 --> 00:30:36,324 Speaker 3: However, that's a subscription service targeted toward people like you 567 00:30:36,404 --> 00:30:39,324 Speaker 3: and me that are either proker junkies or have some 568 00:30:39,364 --> 00:30:43,324 Speaker 3: professional or adjacent to professional interests in the game. Ye 569 00:30:45,204 --> 00:30:48,884 Speaker 3: you know the large field WPT and World Series of 570 00:30:48,884 --> 00:30:52,124 Speaker 3: Poker tournaments right where like you have a big four 571 00:30:52,244 --> 00:30:54,844 Speaker 3: or five day event and then you narrow that down 572 00:30:55,004 --> 00:30:58,484 Speaker 3: to a small handful of players, a few of which 573 00:30:58,604 --> 00:31:01,724 Speaker 3: you just by luck of the draw, have good stories, 574 00:31:01,884 --> 00:31:04,084 Speaker 3: right Like is is the main evouent of the World 575 00:31:04,164 --> 00:31:06,724 Speaker 3: Series even on like linear TV anymore like a little 576 00:31:06,724 --> 00:31:07,004 Speaker 3: bit on. 577 00:31:06,964 --> 00:31:11,044 Speaker 1: CDs, right yeah, it is. It is after the fact, 578 00:31:11,164 --> 00:31:15,284 Speaker 1: so not so during the event. You have live streams 579 00:31:15,764 --> 00:31:19,764 Speaker 1: and then those are edited down to I believe thirty 580 00:31:19,844 --> 00:31:24,964 Speaker 1: minute kind of broadcasts that are more made for TV, 581 00:31:25,364 --> 00:31:29,204 Speaker 1: and so there are kind of there's limited uh, limited 582 00:31:29,244 --> 00:31:34,204 Speaker 1: coverage after the fact where you have new announcers, sometimes 583 00:31:34,964 --> 00:31:38,844 Speaker 1: new announcers, sometimes the same announcing team, where they actually 584 00:31:39,324 --> 00:31:44,484 Speaker 1: kind of do new coverage, new kind of new soundtracks 585 00:31:44,684 --> 00:31:48,844 Speaker 1: and make it into more of a polished final product 586 00:31:48,924 --> 00:31:51,644 Speaker 1: as opposed to, you know, let's watch all of these 587 00:31:51,684 --> 00:31:55,404 Speaker 1: hands hand by hand so that it looks more dramatic, right, 588 00:31:55,484 --> 00:31:58,244 Speaker 1: And you know, I totally respect that. I think if 589 00:31:58,284 --> 00:32:01,964 Speaker 1: you're going for a wide TV audience, poker can be 590 00:32:02,004 --> 00:32:04,804 Speaker 1: so boring day right, Like you you can sometimes be 591 00:32:05,444 --> 00:32:06,364 Speaker 1: like sitting and for. 592 00:32:06,444 --> 00:32:10,804 Speaker 3: Us like work, oh yeah, I'm gonna be in Vegas, 593 00:32:10,844 --> 00:32:11,804 Speaker 3: but mostly playing poker. 594 00:32:11,884 --> 00:32:14,964 Speaker 2: They're like, can I come watch you? I'm like, yeah, 595 00:32:15,124 --> 00:32:20,484 Speaker 2: exactly can. It would be table be boring as. 596 00:32:20,364 --> 00:32:23,524 Speaker 1: Fuck, right, even at the final table. You know, I 597 00:32:23,564 --> 00:32:26,804 Speaker 1: actually always encourage people like it's nice to have people 598 00:32:26,924 --> 00:32:28,884 Speaker 1: on your rail, which are you know, the people who 599 00:32:28,924 --> 00:32:32,044 Speaker 1: are watching. But I would never force someone I love 600 00:32:32,164 --> 00:32:35,204 Speaker 1: to come on the rail and watch because you can't 601 00:32:35,244 --> 00:32:38,204 Speaker 1: see the cards. It's much more interesting to watch the 602 00:32:38,244 --> 00:32:41,324 Speaker 1: stream on a screen where you can see what people 603 00:32:41,364 --> 00:32:44,444 Speaker 1: have and you can follow along when you're there live, 604 00:32:44,884 --> 00:32:48,644 Speaker 1: like all you see are the all in confrontations or 605 00:32:48,764 --> 00:32:51,164 Speaker 1: when you know a hand goes to showdown. You don't 606 00:32:51,204 --> 00:32:55,684 Speaker 1: see the cards otherwise, But even if you're watching on screen, 607 00:32:56,004 --> 00:32:59,044 Speaker 1: it can be quite boring because there are so many 608 00:32:59,044 --> 00:33:04,964 Speaker 1: different things happening. So I understand the desire to bring 609 00:33:05,044 --> 00:33:08,564 Speaker 1: people to you know, to craft narratives, to have drama, 610 00:33:08,844 --> 00:33:10,804 Speaker 1: to bring people to the game in a way that 611 00:33:10,924 --> 00:33:17,804 Speaker 1: makes them excited about poker. But you know, how did people, 612 00:33:18,164 --> 00:33:21,444 Speaker 1: you know, craft narratives that make people excited about chess 613 00:33:21,564 --> 00:33:25,364 Speaker 1: or or Formula one or whatever it is. It's by 614 00:33:25,484 --> 00:33:29,044 Speaker 1: being a good storyteller, finding the stories, finding the people 615 00:33:29,404 --> 00:33:32,444 Speaker 1: using the material that you have, rather than kind of 616 00:33:32,804 --> 00:33:35,844 Speaker 1: taking liberty and creating material on your own. So just 617 00:33:35,844 --> 00:33:40,644 Speaker 1: to kind of bring this full circle, I think that you, 618 00:33:42,124 --> 00:33:44,444 Speaker 1: by the way, like we would be doing this. I 619 00:33:44,444 --> 00:33:48,084 Speaker 1: think we'd be having this conversation even if this documentary 620 00:33:48,364 --> 00:33:51,724 Speaker 1: had just smashed everything in the sense that people were like, 621 00:33:51,764 --> 00:33:54,044 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is phenomenal this is so good, 622 00:33:54,364 --> 00:33:56,844 Speaker 1: and it had just like through the roof viewership, which 623 00:33:56,924 --> 00:33:59,924 Speaker 1: it did not. Someone took a screenshot of the number 624 00:33:59,924 --> 00:34:03,044 Speaker 1: of views of each episode before they were taken off 625 00:34:03,084 --> 00:34:05,124 Speaker 1: of YouTube, and it was like, I think it was 626 00:34:05,244 --> 00:34:08,844 Speaker 1: like twenty thou thirty, Like it was not big numbers, right, Like, 627 00:34:08,924 --> 00:34:12,164 Speaker 1: it was much worse than a lot of the great 628 00:34:12,284 --> 00:34:16,204 Speaker 1: poker content creators who actually have, you know, many more views. 629 00:34:16,244 --> 00:34:18,644 Speaker 1: I think the biggest one had like forty thousand views 630 00:34:18,724 --> 00:34:21,364 Speaker 1: or something, and with every episode, it just like it 631 00:34:21,724 --> 00:34:26,284 Speaker 1: went down. And so if it had been huge and 632 00:34:26,684 --> 00:34:30,564 Speaker 1: hugely kind of successful with millions of views, this would have, 633 00:34:30,724 --> 00:34:33,644 Speaker 1: I think, in some ways been even more of an issue, 634 00:34:33,844 --> 00:34:35,684 Speaker 1: right like that you had to create that, you had 635 00:34:35,724 --> 00:34:38,724 Speaker 1: to lie that, you had to make shit up to 636 00:34:38,764 --> 00:34:42,244 Speaker 1: bring in an audience. But now like you did that 637 00:34:42,444 --> 00:34:45,684 Speaker 1: and and it was boring, right Like, you did that, 638 00:34:45,884 --> 00:34:48,204 Speaker 1: and you didn't do anything new. You did that, and 639 00:34:48,324 --> 00:34:52,484 Speaker 1: you didn't actually craft drama bring people in, like, you know, 640 00:34:52,564 --> 00:34:56,524 Speaker 1: come create something that made people excited about the game 641 00:34:56,804 --> 00:35:00,804 Speaker 1: that wasn't already somebody who loved the game, right And 642 00:35:00,964 --> 00:35:05,044 Speaker 1: so I think that that that's sort of beside the point, 643 00:35:05,964 --> 00:35:09,084 Speaker 1: and it's and it's also it's absolutely not an excuse. 644 00:35:09,524 --> 00:35:13,404 Speaker 1: In some ways, the more people, like if you're writing 645 00:35:13,444 --> 00:35:15,724 Speaker 1: for an audience of one, Right, like if I had 646 00:35:15,764 --> 00:35:18,684 Speaker 1: a private newsletter that was like on a private thing, 647 00:35:18,724 --> 00:35:20,964 Speaker 1: and I used AI to try to experiment and do 648 00:35:21,044 --> 00:35:23,284 Speaker 1: things that I didn't really have to do, Like I 649 00:35:23,324 --> 00:35:26,164 Speaker 1: don't have to tell anyone, Right, I'm my own audience. Right, 650 00:35:26,164 --> 00:35:28,684 Speaker 1: I can just do I can just do whatever and 651 00:35:28,724 --> 00:35:32,124 Speaker 1: like play around. But if I have as my audience grows, 652 00:35:32,164 --> 00:35:35,204 Speaker 1: then I start having a responsibility to other people to 653 00:35:35,404 --> 00:35:39,444 Speaker 1: actually kind of uphold some sort of standards. And so 654 00:35:39,764 --> 00:35:42,884 Speaker 1: in some ways, like the bigger the success, the more 655 00:35:43,004 --> 00:35:47,524 Speaker 1: responsibility you have to your subjects, to your audience, to 656 00:35:47,564 --> 00:35:51,204 Speaker 1: the sport. Right, you have a responsibility to poker. Why 657 00:35:51,324 --> 00:35:53,884 Speaker 1: is it nate that every single time we talk about poker, 658 00:35:54,204 --> 00:35:56,604 Speaker 1: unless you or I have won something and there's like 659 00:35:56,684 --> 00:35:59,284 Speaker 1: fun news that way, it's almost always some sort of 660 00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:03,564 Speaker 1: a scandal, Right, It's something it's something negative, like why 661 00:36:03,604 --> 00:36:06,404 Speaker 1: don't we actually try to do things the right way 662 00:36:06,444 --> 00:36:09,244 Speaker 1: to bring people into the game for the right reasons. 663 00:36:16,764 --> 00:36:17,884 Speaker 2: We'll be back right after this. 664 00:36:25,284 --> 00:36:29,004 Speaker 3: One problem is that there's a shipload of variants you 665 00:36:29,044 --> 00:36:30,764 Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like, what's the chance this year 666 00:36:30,844 --> 00:36:35,404 Speaker 3: is an exception that the main event of the World 667 00:36:35,444 --> 00:36:38,524 Speaker 3: Series of Hooker will be won by somebody that like. 668 00:36:40,444 --> 00:36:42,124 Speaker 2: Even you or I had both. 669 00:36:41,964 --> 00:36:45,044 Speaker 3: Heard of, let's say, in events of the tournament, right, 670 00:36:45,284 --> 00:36:48,004 Speaker 3: like right, and we probably know a lot of people, 671 00:36:48,004 --> 00:36:50,084 Speaker 3: and I do think there are large edges to like 672 00:36:50,204 --> 00:36:53,724 Speaker 3: the pros and the main event, right, but like, yep, yeah, 673 00:36:53,844 --> 00:36:55,244 Speaker 3: by the way, some of the names that one. 674 00:36:55,164 --> 00:36:57,564 Speaker 2: Eth it now our household names. I would not have 675 00:36:57,604 --> 00:36:58,044 Speaker 2: known that name. 676 00:36:58,084 --> 00:37:01,364 Speaker 3: I'd be like, that guy look like some fucking Norwegian player, right, 677 00:37:01,364 --> 00:37:03,124 Speaker 3: but like I wouldn't know that fucking person. 678 00:37:03,564 --> 00:37:07,284 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I love Espen. We're very friendly now. But 679 00:37:07,524 --> 00:37:09,804 Speaker 1: prior to Espen winning the main event of the world 680 00:37:09,844 --> 00:37:11,804 Speaker 1: here as of poker, I had no idea who he was. 681 00:37:12,124 --> 00:37:19,124 Speaker 1: He's a lovely, lovely human, great guy. But yeah, yeah, 682 00:37:20,884 --> 00:37:23,964 Speaker 1: but but if you but if you actually I actually 683 00:37:23,964 --> 00:37:26,724 Speaker 1: have done this. I've gone back like ten years and 684 00:37:26,804 --> 00:37:29,964 Speaker 1: started looking at the winners' names. I don't know most 685 00:37:30,004 --> 00:37:33,524 Speaker 1: of them, right, they were probably players who people knew 686 00:37:33,564 --> 00:37:35,084 Speaker 1: at the time, and like, if you were. 687 00:37:35,484 --> 00:37:38,644 Speaker 2: You're still and I'm trying to the banners. 688 00:37:39,204 --> 00:37:43,764 Speaker 1: Ryan, I know, Ryan and I know Martin, but but 689 00:37:43,844 --> 00:37:45,404 Speaker 1: there are a lot of players who I'm like, I've 690 00:37:45,484 --> 00:37:49,284 Speaker 1: just I literally have never heard this name before, which 691 00:37:49,364 --> 00:37:51,924 Speaker 1: which is to say, yes, there is a lot of variance. 692 00:37:51,924 --> 00:37:54,684 Speaker 1: But there is drama. There are all these stories, and 693 00:37:54,924 --> 00:37:58,724 Speaker 1: there is I mean, there is good material here, right, 694 00:37:58,804 --> 00:38:02,564 Speaker 1: Like you actually, you absolutely can make something that's compelling, 695 00:38:03,004 --> 00:38:06,284 Speaker 1: and I would, I mean, you know, that's a hill 696 00:38:06,284 --> 00:38:08,844 Speaker 1: I'm willing to die on. Like you can make compelling 697 00:38:08,924 --> 00:38:13,244 Speaker 1: television and out of poker and people have and you know, 698 00:38:13,364 --> 00:38:16,444 Speaker 1: it's not just like the high stakes shows of the 699 00:38:16,484 --> 00:38:20,604 Speaker 1: past that had a huge viewership. But there are fictionalized 700 00:38:20,604 --> 00:38:24,684 Speaker 1: accounts like there are there are documentaries, there's reality TV. 701 00:38:24,764 --> 00:38:27,404 Speaker 1: By the way, these are all different things, right if 702 00:38:27,444 --> 00:38:30,324 Speaker 1: you're making a reality TV show, like okay, that's script, 703 00:38:30,644 --> 00:38:33,804 Speaker 1: that's not a documentary series, you already know it's going 704 00:38:33,844 --> 00:38:38,884 Speaker 1: to be used differently. But you can make a compelling documentary. 705 00:38:39,004 --> 00:38:42,084 Speaker 1: There are human stories, there's human drama. You just have 706 00:38:42,164 --> 00:38:44,564 Speaker 1: to be a good filmmaker. You just have to be 707 00:38:44,604 --> 00:38:47,084 Speaker 1: able to find those threads. Two journalists can go to 708 00:38:47,124 --> 00:38:49,724 Speaker 1: the exact same assignment, right and write a story like 709 00:38:50,084 --> 00:38:53,004 Speaker 1: have the same assignment, write this story, and one can 710 00:38:53,204 --> 00:38:56,244 Speaker 1: craft a Pulitzer Prize winning masterpiece, on the other like 711 00:38:56,604 --> 00:38:59,324 Speaker 1: just a boring piece of who knows what, like on 712 00:38:59,404 --> 00:39:02,604 Speaker 1: the exact like even talking to the same people, because 713 00:39:02,644 --> 00:39:05,124 Speaker 1: somebody can see the story, can see the vision, knows 714 00:39:05,124 --> 00:39:07,284 Speaker 1: how to kind of make it into something great, and 715 00:39:07,324 --> 00:39:10,644 Speaker 1: the other one doesn't. And that's what I Oftentimes people 716 00:39:11,004 --> 00:39:12,964 Speaker 1: like when they find out what I'm working on, They're like, oh, 717 00:39:13,004 --> 00:39:15,644 Speaker 1: aren't you afraid that someone else is going to steal 718 00:39:15,724 --> 00:39:17,364 Speaker 1: that idea and write the same thing. I'm like, no, 719 00:39:17,404 --> 00:39:18,684 Speaker 1: because no one else is going to write it the 720 00:39:18,724 --> 00:39:21,684 Speaker 1: way I do, right, Like every everyone like. 721 00:39:21,244 --> 00:39:22,044 Speaker 2: Probably like this person. 722 00:39:23,804 --> 00:39:26,524 Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, but they they suck. They suck, right, 723 00:39:27,044 --> 00:39:29,644 Speaker 3: not everybody. Sometimes they suck. And I'm like, I don't 724 00:39:29,644 --> 00:39:31,644 Speaker 3: know if I can care they suck. Their upside is 725 00:39:31,724 --> 00:39:35,364 Speaker 3: cat But yes, it's hard. It's hard to plant around 726 00:39:35,404 --> 00:39:40,044 Speaker 3: like this content when like your stars are are usually 727 00:39:40,044 --> 00:39:42,044 Speaker 3: not going to win, right. I mean, this year's World 728 00:39:42,084 --> 00:39:45,324 Speaker 3: Series mainavment had like way way wait, it was like 729 00:39:45,364 --> 00:39:48,964 Speaker 3: the ninety eighth percentile interesting character. 730 00:39:49,044 --> 00:39:51,284 Speaker 1: This is very true. So do you know what you do? Nate? 731 00:39:51,364 --> 00:39:54,684 Speaker 1: In that case, you tape six hundred and fifty hours 732 00:39:54,724 --> 00:39:58,484 Speaker 1: of content. You follow all of these different storylines and 733 00:39:58,524 --> 00:40:00,724 Speaker 1: you don't know which ones are going to end up 734 00:40:00,844 --> 00:40:03,164 Speaker 1: being the prominent ones and the ones you want to use, 735 00:40:03,524 --> 00:40:07,284 Speaker 1: and then you actually make something that's good and compelling 736 00:40:07,684 --> 00:40:10,004 Speaker 1: out of it. So let's I mean, I would like 737 00:40:10,044 --> 00:40:12,244 Speaker 1: to issue at the end of the show, I don't 738 00:40:12,284 --> 00:40:16,284 Speaker 1: like to issue a challenge to creators, not just in poker, 739 00:40:16,444 --> 00:40:19,924 Speaker 1: to always just be here, like, do better be good, 740 00:40:20,604 --> 00:40:22,764 Speaker 1: use you know, use whatever tools you need to use, 741 00:40:22,844 --> 00:40:26,804 Speaker 1: but be honest, do not cheat, Do not be lazy. 742 00:40:26,844 --> 00:40:29,924 Speaker 1: You cannot tell good stories if you're being lazy. Nate, 743 00:40:29,964 --> 00:40:32,844 Speaker 1: You've said the word lazy multiple times in this episode, 744 00:40:32,844 --> 00:40:35,884 Speaker 1: and that's exactly what it is. It's intellectual laziness. It's 745 00:40:35,964 --> 00:40:40,004 Speaker 1: just it's just laziness all around. So don't be lazy. 746 00:40:40,084 --> 00:40:42,404 Speaker 1: Actually find the good stories. And yes, in poker, it 747 00:40:42,444 --> 00:40:45,484 Speaker 1: is hard, right, It's not like Formula one where if 748 00:40:45,524 --> 00:40:49,244 Speaker 1: you follow the best drivers, you'll probably be following the winner. Like, 749 00:40:49,804 --> 00:40:52,524 Speaker 1: but but if you cast a wide net you can 750 00:40:52,564 --> 00:40:55,844 Speaker 1: still figure it out. You can make it happen. Do it, like, 751 00:40:55,964 --> 00:40:57,804 Speaker 1: let's create something good and. 752 00:40:57,884 --> 00:41:01,244 Speaker 3: You the passage of time, right, you know, shooting six 753 00:41:01,324 --> 00:41:03,404 Speaker 3: hundred hours of footage at like one tournament won't give 754 00:41:03,404 --> 00:41:07,364 Speaker 3: you the passage of time for like narrative arcs and 755 00:41:07,444 --> 00:41:11,124 Speaker 3: people's lives get better and worse, And hooker does created 756 00:41:11,164 --> 00:41:12,444 Speaker 3: share dramatic moments. 757 00:41:12,484 --> 00:41:16,124 Speaker 1: Maria, Yes, it does indeed. So that is our take 758 00:41:16,244 --> 00:41:26,564 Speaker 1: on documentary Gate twenty twenty five. Let us know what 759 00:41:26,604 --> 00:41:28,564 Speaker 1: you think of the show. Reach out to us at 760 00:41:28,644 --> 00:41:33,484 Speaker 1: Risky Business at pushkin dot FM. Risky Business is hosted 761 00:41:33,524 --> 00:41:36,004 Speaker 1: by me Maria Kanakova and by. 762 00:41:35,884 --> 00:41:36,764 Speaker 2: Me Nate Silver. 763 00:41:37,404 --> 00:41:41,044 Speaker 3: The show was a cool production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. 764 00:41:41,124 --> 00:41:44,444 Speaker 3: This episode was produced by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer 765 00:41:44,524 --> 00:41:48,284 Speaker 3: is Sonya gerwit Lydia, Jeane Kott and Daphney Chen are 766 00:41:48,284 --> 00:41:51,524 Speaker 3: our editors, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. 767 00:41:52,004 --> 00:41:53,324 Speaker 2: Mixing by Sarah Bruguer. 768 00:41:54,564 --> 00:41:56,804 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate and review us 769 00:41:56,804 --> 00:41:59,484 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too, But once again, 770 00:41:59,604 --> 00:42:01,404 Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want those bad 771 00:42:01,444 --> 00:42:03,604 Speaker 1: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.