WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - December 27th, 2025 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:07.240 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.000 This is Bloomberg business Week Daily reporting from the magazine 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:17.599 that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies, 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:22.520 and trends shaping today's complex economy, plus global business, finance 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.880 and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg business Week 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:31.320 Daily Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:35.040 Hi everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.640 Happy holidays everyone. With the year nearly over, we think 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.199 it's time for reflection and anticipation. In this hour, we 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:44.920 sit down with the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek magazine to 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.880 lay out what twenty twenty six could have in store, 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.479 from big ideas to looming risks. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.440 Plus a guide to the best places to travel in 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.760 twenty twenty six, because yes, it's kind of a flex. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.320 Yeah, me to start planning early. Yeah, like I'm going 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:01.320 so and so Like me, twenty months is like. 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:03.280 Right around the corner, so it is all right. 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:04.920 We're going to wrap up too with a look back 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:06.520 at the year that was for one of the most 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.760 unpredictable figures in business, tech, and politics. We're talking about Elon. 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:12.640 And in the spirit of the holiday season and mid 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.200 taking time off while playing in the snow or basking 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.880 in the sun, and spending time with friends and family, 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.280 you may also find yourself with time on your hands. 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:22.959 So with that in mind, in our second hour, we're 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.360 going to lay out some of our team's winter reading list, 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.520 courtesy of authors and books featured on Bloomberg Business Week 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.440 from the last six months, everything from regulating digital empires, 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:36.440 to what it means to unlock collective genius, and to 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.200 the CEO of Jamba Juice with tips on how he 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.160 built an organization with purpose. 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.840 All of that ahead first, though, twenty twenty five, I 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.840 am having trouble believing this year is even over, and 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:52.040 also having trouble believing all that's happened, the ups, the downs, 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:54.360 No doubt, it's been a long year and one that's 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.400 gone by I think for a lot of people too 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:57.000 really fast. 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:57.880 Yeah, no doubt. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.760 Covering it all the major themes players from Wall Street 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.400 to Main Street to Washington and more is Bloomberg BusinessWeek Magazine. 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.840 Bradstone is the editor of Bloomberg Business Week Magazine. He 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.200 joined Bloomberg's Alexis, Christopherus and Me on the year that 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.680 was and what to expect in twenty twenty six. 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.520 I'll start with the principle, which is that we are 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.480 in the business of covering the icons and business, politics 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.960 and culture, the companies that are transforming the world, and 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.359 the technologies and the trends that are changing our lives. 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.160 And so when we look back at the year, and 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.760 we look back at so the December issue, Keisha Steelman 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:38.000 from Alta Beauty, the package on the beauty industry Gap, 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:42.600 Richard Dixon to Turnaround at the Gap, Doug McMillan, Walmart. Okay, 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:47.760 these are classic Business Week stories, corpor profiles, narratives of 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:49.239 companies coming back from the brink. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.040 We have actually, you know, a shore. There are some 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.280 of your covers. You mentioned Alta, I mean Gavin Newsome. 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.880 Will be more specific about this year though, Okay, because 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.000 I think this year there were two stories that really 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.280 the impacted all of us and are transforming the world 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:05.720 in front of our eyes. And one is AI right 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:10.440 in the massive bet on data centers and GPUs and 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:12.919 the way that it's transforming companies. And so we put 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:19.239 Sam Altman on the cover. In February, we have China's 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.680 AI the AI issue in June. But that the other 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.520 story is clearly and maybe this is the biggest one, 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.519 is Donald Trump and what has really been the pursuit 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.000 of kind of an executive presidency, the accumulation of power. 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:39.560 And so Scott Bessentt on the cover in September, Elon 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.840 and Doge on the cover in August, Trump's trade war, 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.960 after Liberation Day in May. I mean, these are all 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:50.120 ways we tried to cover that story, and you know, 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:55.000 it's massive, it's still developing. But it's not just the covers. 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.640 It's in the issues every month, and we're trying to 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:03.320 tell the story about a destruction of norms in Washington, 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.360 d C. That's radiating out into the business world and 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:07.560 across all our lives. 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.000 I'm curious if there was one story and I know 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:11.520 this is a lot right coming because you're looking at 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.200 the whole year in review, really, but was there one 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.680 story that particularly resonated with readers this year? 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.360 Okay, well, it's funny, Alexis, because after having laid out 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.160 all these serious topics, I'll give you one that Pop's 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:25.320 right to mind, which is we did the story about 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:30.280 doodles and the doodal industrial complex. These these dogs and 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.240 how doodle owners are battling with like the Purebread is 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.920 it the Purebread Association, I can't quite remember, but this 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.320 whole like the the AKC or something like that, and 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.640 this battle over this you know, ridiculous but adorably cute 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.000 muppet dog breed, and that of course went well gang 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.000 in between people in their day exactly. You know. More seriously, 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.240 we wrote the first profile of Russell Vote, the head 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.479 of the Office of Management Budget, the real spiritual leader 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.800 behind Doge, not even Musk, The account of you know, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.279 his blueprint Project twenty five. This is a Max Chafkin 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.520 story and how it was transforming everything from you know, 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:15.279 USAID to the whole federal bureaucracy, and so those kinds 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.360 of stories. When we were early on this accumulation of 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:24.000 an imperial presidency of power by Trump, that's where I 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.080 think we really connected with our readers. 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:28.600 You know, as someone who talks, you know, you think 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.520 about kind of how this presidency was going to play 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:33.440 out and how you wanted to cover it. I mean, 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.080 were you anticipating all the twists and turns. I mean 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.080 we had kind of a first version in his first. 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.400 Term, but this has been a very different second term. 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.240 I mean, I don't I don't know that anybody anticipated it. 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.640 And look, you know, nobody has a crystal ball. I 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.440 think that after Liberation Day, a lot of people automatically 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:56.080 assumed that it could push the economy into recession and 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.960 really hit consumer spending. What we see today is a 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.279 very complex pick. Sure, people talk about the K shaped economy. 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.279 It seems like part of this economy is doing very well. 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:11.040 Black Friday, Cyber Monday shopping was strong. Consumer sentiment is good. 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.440 But then there's another side of this economy where people 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:17.320 are suffering and affordability is the word of the day. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.360 When we put Gavin news From on the cover of November, 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.800 you know, he's hitting some of those notes. Gavin was 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.320 not a story about twenty twenty eight. It was a 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.560 story about today. And now he's managed to finally articulate 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.560 for the Democratic Party a path forward and articulate an 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.400 argument against the current administration. And so you know, we're 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:39.240 trying to tell examine all dimensions, and you know, and 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.840 I wrote a story in that issue about how California 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:43.640 is a bit of a handicap right now. It's not 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.680 an economic success story. So we try to interrogate all 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:48.839 sides of the political divide. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:50.400 I do want to give a shout out though, to 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.960 a cover story in January, So going way back to 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.719 the beginning of the year, the Human Egg, which was 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.920 an amazing investigative piece that actually on a Globe award. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.839 So I was wondering if that was one that particularly, 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:06.599 you know, connected with folks. 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.200 I mean, I love when BusinessWeek becomes the home for 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.000 the most ambitious journalistic work inside the Bloomberg newsroom. And 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:16.560 this came from our investigations team. It is this global 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:21.120 investigation in how women are sometimes coersed into donating their 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.160 eggs or sometimes in economic positions where they feel like 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.080 they have to, and a whole industry that is in 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.960 some cases deceiving them and in some cases harming their 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:36.320 harming the donors. And it was sweeping, I mean from 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:40.120 China to India to the United States, truly global, and 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.840 we tracked in some cases our reporters traveled with these 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.880 shipments of donated eggs, and yeah, it was wonderful. It 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.680 did resonate with readers, and it's just the beginning of 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:52.440 the kinds of journalism that we're doing. 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:54.640 How do you think about twenty twenty six, especially as 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:56.440 we get ready for midterms, and I think about how 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.360 much you guys have spent focusing on politics, and it 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.840 makes sense. How how are you beginning to think about it? 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.480 Well, I mean, I go back to I think our principles, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:10.440 which is iconic leaders in business, culture and and politics. 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.200 You know, we're We're a business magazine, so there's a 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.320 lot of business leaders and a lot of companies that 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.760 I'm curious about. I think we've only begun to explore 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:24.280 the the the China story, the transformation of the international 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.440 dynamic with the withdrawal of the United States, and a 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:34.200 lot of important you know, alla alliances, climate change, the 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:37.599 role that China will now take as it is increasingly assertive. 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.160 That's a topic that interests me. I mean, obviously, you 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.320 know the midterms, but I think, like we did with 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.200 Scott Besson, like we did with Gavin Newsom, we find, 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.319 you know, we interviewed Donald Trump during the campaign, did 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.560 a cover story in Kamala Harris during the campaign. We 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.040 find our opportunities and those characters that always feel larger 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:03.640 than life and also you know, impacting the business story, 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.679 right and who you know who are telling an economic 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:08.520 story that is interesting to our readers. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:10.800 We have to get in the Jealousy List because I 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.800 love that you do this too. It's the best journalism 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.280 in your eyes right or the the Business Week's eyes 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.800 of twenty twenty five. But it's nothing we wrote, which 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.560 I think is really cool. There was one thing on 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.480 the Jealousy List that resonated with me. It was the 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:28.120 spritzes and carbonaras that ate Italy and tourism. I think 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.040 it was a New York Times artic cloud tourism has 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.000 turned some Italian streets into monochromatic eating zones. They're actually 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.640 stopping new restaurants from opening up in some parts of Italy. 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:37.480 Now can you believe it? 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.280 I mean, I love the Jealousy List. I basically send 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.240 out an email to all of our contributors in the 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.720 newsroom and I say, you know, what did what did 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.640 our competitors do that you were a little jealous of 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.280 over the last twelve months? And we get stories and 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.079 some podcasts. In one case, we even got a series 0:09:55.120 --> 0:10:01.319 of tweets Derek Derek Guy, the fashion influencer. Yeah, I mean, 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:02.800 it's just and it turns out I think a lot 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.440 of people open that up in bookmark stories and Yeah, 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.280 we're we're being a little like benevolent here with our 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.559 attention and calling calling attention to our competitors. But it's 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:14.640 a ritual. We've done it, I think seven or eight 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:15.360 years in a row. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:16.000 I love it. 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:17.040 I've contributed to it. 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:18.800 It's like it's it's a lot of fun and I 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.960 always feel like what it reminds me of, like these 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:23.240 are a bunch of things I want to read and 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.679 then the same thing that Business Week doese throughout the year, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.559 whether it's movies, whether it's theater. You know, kind of 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.720 the Pursuits group has done this, whether it's books to read, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:32.680 Like you guys are always tapping into all of this. 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.480 Yeah, well, you know it's the curse of the journalists, 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.880 Like we have to pay attention off to everything. We 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.480 can't turn it off. We're news junkies, and so this is, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.280 I guess, a way of sharing the obsession. 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.520 Brad, you talked about the doodle story and how much 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.120 people responded to it. Is there any story though, that 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:51.520 you guys have put out where people like. 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.400 Are really fighting back against it and giving you guys. 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:55.400 Oh, that's a good question. 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:56.160 I just wonder. 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:02.280 I mean, look, any politics story that probably any media outlet, 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.040 and Bloomberg is no exception. Right, you hear it, You 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.400 hear like. We do not have a monolithic audience. You know, 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.160 there are there are plenty of our readers from all 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.080 both sides of the political aisle, and they tell you 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.280 when you don't get it right. So I think you 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.640 know hear it too. Yeah, from the from our Gavin 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.000 covered or Scott Bessent interview to our coverage of Doge 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.560 and Elon, you know, you hear it. And something about 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:32.240 the political discussion has shifted where you know, they if 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.480 somebody doesn't like it, you don't get a you know, disciplined, 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.080 civilized letter to the editor. They tweet, they tweet something 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.240 and they whip up, you know. And so yeah, that 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.640 that certainly happened for for a lot of what we write. 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:45.440 And look, I mean, we wouldn't be doing our job 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.480 if companies weren't regularly calling and lodging complaints of some kind. 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.880 And I could list a couple, but maybe more more 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.360 polite to just leave it at that. But part part 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:55.840 of the job is you do get. 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:57.760 Some pushback and people are reading and you're getting it 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:58.360 from all sides. 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:01.040 Great stuff. We love We love having. 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.640 Everybody, all the members of your team and you stop by, 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:04.439 so thank you so much. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:04.960 Good lucky. 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.480 I know it's not twenty twenty six rush us. 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.920 It just feels like, you know, it's all of a sudden, 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:11.440 it's here. 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.240 Can tease the cover for January? 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.360 You know, I will say, alexis that annually we do 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.200 a year ahead issue in January. So it's a guy 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:23.600 that's your map to twenty twenty six and I've contributed 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.480 a couple stories. The team has come together, so basically 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.320 how to stay sane next year? Look for that in 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:30.600 the January issue. 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.400 Like copy good stuff as always. 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:34.000 Thank you so much. 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:37.440 Bradstone, editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Joining us right here in studio. 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.040 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch us 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.559 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.080 on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:54.120 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.880 What do Gabone, Almadi, Kazakhstan, San Francisco, Lima, Texas and 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:01.760 I Pay all have in common? 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:02.640 Hmm? 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.960 That has me scratching my head. Well, I'll tell you 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:05.800 what they have in common. 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.000 They are all on Bloomberg Pursuit's list of where to 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:10.480 go in twenty twenty six. 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.360 The Bloomberg Pursuits tenth annual travel guide for the year 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.200 ahead makes it easier than ever to cut through the 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.280 noise and book your next vacation. The list of twenty 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.360 five destinations is quite the mix reinvigorated classics and under 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:27.079 the radar gems, each brimming with new luxuries and creative 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.560 energy and places that won't strain your wallet. 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.679 I'm ready. I'm so ready, so you. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:33.360 Can you can definitely find a place to strain your. 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:34.439 Wallet, all right? 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:36.839 With our deep dive on where to travel in twenty 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.120 twenty six in the new year is Bloomberg Pursuits Global 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.360 Travels are Nikki Eckstein. Nikki, we always love this list, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.000 We always love talking about it with you, But first 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.160 of all, remind us how this list gets put together, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.040 because the world is a pretty big place. I mean 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:50.920 it's a group effort. 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.360 Oh yeah, it takes a village. I say that creating 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.440 this list each year is almost like having a child. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.840 I have two of them, so I don't take that lightly. 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.480 But we do an all year round effort. Sometimes it 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:04.960 takes multiple years for news to kind of bubble up 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:06.720 in the way that we want in a particular place. 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.640 So we're tracking places for a very long time all 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.559 around the world, and as we see pockets of news, 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:18.880 you know, hotel openings, museum expansions, airport expansions, new airports, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.040 new flights, what have you, we are looking at all 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.560 of that news and more and kind of watching for 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.440 little hot zones where a lot of things are going 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.640 on all at once and making a place feel really 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.160 magnetic at a particular moment in time. 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.760 And then there's kind of intangibles. 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.680 Where we just see that the culture is shifting in 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.280 a particular way, the conversation is moving, and there's something 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.760 in the zeitgeist that is homing in on particular parts 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.200 of the world in ways that we can put our 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.440 fingers on because we're watching this stuff day in and 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.080 day out, but other people might not notice until they 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.120 see it all over their Instagram feeds next year. 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:55.280 Well, let's start with one of those places that I 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.400 was surprised to see on the list, and that's Gabone. 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:02.240 Yeah, Gabone is really interesting. So this is a particularly 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.240 interesting case because you can really point a finger at 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.640 what is happening and why and how, And it really 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.840 started in many ways with Jeff Bezos. That's a surprising connection, right, 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.400 like who saw that coming? But his Earth Fund pledged 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.080 some thirty million dollars into conservation efforts across the country 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.280 just a couple of years ago, and those efforts are 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:29.239 really bearing fruit and helping turn them into robust wildlife 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.360 tourism destinations where, among other things, you can see gorillas 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.560 in really small groups of people, much smaller even than 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.440 in Rwanda, which is so known for its gorilla tourism, 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.200 and you can get these really really intimate sightings. One 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.280 of the things that's school about Gubbon is that the 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.440 wildlife parks are right against the coast, and so you 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.680 can stay in these beachside resorts and like you're not 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:58.080 fighting for lounge chairs with other people. The quote unquote 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.880 people on the beach are hippos and elephants. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.840 Okay, I love that. I still love that. 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.320 Oh yeah, And it's you know, I think about, like, 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.760 you know, Africa in general and going on safaris and 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.200 things like these are things that have been around for 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.200 a long time, but this just does feel like a 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.080 much more intimate, intimate twist on. 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.360 All of that oh yeah, you're not going to run 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.360 into another jeep for a mile? 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.560 Hey listen one of the things and when like when 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:26.680 should we go? Because I think I just want to 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.400 point out that what's cool about this list is should Yeah, 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.160 I'm on it begs packed. 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:33.280 You know. 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.960 You guys do different factors that kind of determine the experiences, 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.360 you know, and when is the right place to go 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:40.120 and when not to go? 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.080 So when should we go to Gabon? 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:44.880 You know, we try really hard to make this list 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.160 very useful. A lot of our competitors in the travel 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.120 space do really interesting lists that are meant to surprise 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.000 you in so many ways. We do that, but we 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.400 also try to make it really really useful. And the 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.120 way that we do that is exactly like you're saying, 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:03.119 we're providing a ton of data. We have a partnership 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:08.000 with Kayak. They supply us with two point five billion 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.680 data points each year to get this project off the ground, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.040 and those data points power these incredible charts that are interactive. 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.920 You can select your closest airport and then get predictive 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.600 price insights month by month to understand what flights and 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.159 hotels will cost you to go to each of the 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.760 twenty five places that we're excited about this year, and 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.400 then on top of that, we layer in expert insights 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.440 from travel agents and operators that are real experts in 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.080 these destinations. So for a place like Ubone, we can 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.840 tell you very clearly that the summer months are summer 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.679 months June, July, August are the best time to go. 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.480 Because prices are favorable, but also that's. 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.200 When you're going to get the best wildlife sidings. It's 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.679 the dry season, so you'll not only be able to 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.800 see gorillas, but also migratory whales. On the coast, there's 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.959 a national park where there are lots of mandrel monkeys 0:17:57.960 --> 0:17:59.200 and that's their mating season. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:01.080 Like all of these. 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.840 Reasons why the summer months are really the best time. 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:04.280 I love. I love hey listen. 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.959 I always think about People always talk about Greece, and 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.119 when you haven't been to Greece like me, they're like, 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.080 what you haven't been to Greece? But I always think 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.159 about the Greek Isles and you guys actually include on 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:15.600 this list the Greek mountains. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.640 Wait, what you haven't been to see I have either, Well, 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.320 my parents went, they're on their honeymoon. 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.960 Yeah, This was like, you know, back before everyone was 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.720 posting Greek Isles on Instagram, well many decades before that. 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:30.520 Apparently now we should go to the Greek mountains. 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.240 Well, I do recommend that you go to the Greek 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.680 Islands at some point in your life, but I think 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.359 that a mistake that people make is overly focusing on 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.600 the Greek Islands, and a change in behavior is happening 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.920 now where people are understanding that the Greek Islands are 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:49.320 very saturated, they're very expensive. Hotels are easily pushing one 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.200 thousand dollars a night if you can even get in. 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.560 The fairies are you know, there's difficulties with the fairies. 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.080 There's always protests and strikes, and there's weather concern and 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.520 there have been wildfires the last few years, very extreme temperatures. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.400 That doesn't make the Greek Islands any less magical. They're 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.320 a very very special place. But people have understood that 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.080 the headache that's associated with the Greek Isles means that 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.600 sometimes you need to pair them with another place that's 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.920 a little less stressful, And a really common solution to that, 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.639 which is sometimes also just replacing the Greek Isles, is 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.520 to go north to the mountains where you can get 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.600 a lot of the same cultural draws, a lot of 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.520 the same food even, but with a much quieter, more 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:38.560 countryside vibe. Small villages where the culture is really still 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.479 a Greek authentic experience. You know, you're going to get 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:48.040 farmers and cheesemakers and very old monasteries and old stone 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.919 buildings and just that kind of charm that in a 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.440 lot of the islands has been eroded to kind of 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:54.800 peddling to masterism. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.160 Okay, so that's an area that is certainly on my list. 0:19:58.200 --> 0:19:59.680 I want to talk a little bit about budgets here. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:01.919 We mentioned that you can go on both ends of 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.080 the budget extreme, so stuff that's affordable and stuff that 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:09.000 many would classify as splurging. Let's start with the splurging 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:10.840 side of things. If you look at this entire list 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.240 of more than two dozen places, where do you go 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:15.520 if you win the power ball? 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:16.800 Wooh? 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.000 That's a great question. 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:24.040 So I would say my personal answer to that question 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.480 is not born out by the data that we're showing necessarily, 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:33.000 but I would go to wrote island in Indonesia, where 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:38.879 a new hotel is soon to open called me he wrote. Now, 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.240 if you're a hotel nerd like I am, then Niki 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:47.840 has a strong connotation to you because about almost fifteen 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:52.080 years ago, the entrepreneur Chris Birch and the Hotelia James 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:56.040 McBride became like overnight sensations in the luxury travel world 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.040 by opening what soon became known as the most luxurious 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:00.600 resort in the whole life world. And it was called 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.080 Meihi Wacho. Now it's just called me He they changed it. 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:07.879 But this Indonesian private island resort has developed such a 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.560 strong following. It really is known as one of the 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.040 finest places you can stay. And for the first time, 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.119 they're opening their second hotel, a spinoff to Nihim, on 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:19.720 a tiny island called Rote And what's interesting about it 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.520 is that they're also creating a big hospitality academy for 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.119 locals there so that they can help Indonesians kind of 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.480 capitalize on their own travel economy. It's a really interesting model. 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.080 These are expensive hotels, but that's where I would go. 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.760 The nice thing is that because that hotel isn't open yet, 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:41.200 it's not reflected in Kayak's hotel data, and if you 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.560 wanted to stay anywhere else, our price information shows that 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:46.320 you can stay for as little as one hundred and 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:48.359 sixteen dollars a night in a luxury hotel. 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.040 I have to say I would love to go to 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.280 Tanzania's Spice Islands. That's my kind of favorite pick in 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.680 this list. Having said that, I got to go to 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.919 the United States because there are a couple of places Ozarks, 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.400 which made me think of the streaming series, and then Charleston, 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.040 South Carolina, which made me think of the reality show 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:06.760 Southern Charm. 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:07.720 But they are on. 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.399 Your list as places that are in the US that 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.359 people might want to think about. Top up, they're among 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:14.920 your tops. 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:19.160 Yeah. Absolutely, so the Ozarks are really interesting. I think 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:22.239 most people probably don't even know exactly. 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:23.840 Where they are. They're in the South. 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:28.159 There's a big kind of mountain range and connects numerous 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:32.880 destinations that you probably do know about. There's Brandson, Missouri 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:36.440 on one side, and then Bentonville, Arkansas, is on another side. 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:38.439 And if you know anything about Bentonville, you know that 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:40.639 it's the HQ for Walmart. 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:43.640 I thought you were going to say it's the cycling 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:44.760 capital of the country. 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.000 Oh stops it is. 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.320 It's also true thanks to the Walton family that have 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:52.760 you know, they've actually just had a big race there. 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:56.440 The Walton family has done so much for this part 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.600 of the US, and their biggest contribution, and in my 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.119 opinion and probably in a lot of people's opinion, is 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.840 the museum that they created in Bentonville called Crystal Bridges 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.520 Museum of American Art, and it is truly one of 0:23:08.520 --> 0:23:11.880 the finest art institutions in the country, if not possibly 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:16.160 the world, frankly, and they are they're doing a massive, 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.080 massive expansion of their gallery spaces. They're adding one hundred 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:22.480 and fourteen thousand square feet of exhibition space. And this 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:28.080 is like really architecturally impressive gallery space, Like we're not 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:31.600 talking about like just boxy buildings. It's like beautiful, like 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:34.640 you know, it's a complex worth seeing on its own. 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:39.119 But it's also surrounded with like James Trell exhibit installations 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.120 like those sky Space installations, and trails of one hundred 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:47.640 public artworks that you can go biking around. Plus there's 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:49.960 like all these new hotels in the area that make 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:54.280 it really really quite fascinating culturally from an adventure standpoint. 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:57.080 For a family standpoint, it's got everything. 0:23:57.720 --> 0:23:59.840 I think Corsica now may be my favorite place. 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.080 Of this This. 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:02.800 List is changing. 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:07.800 It's oh my god, there's like it's really cool. It's 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:08.280 really cool. 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:10.840 We have to leave it there, unfortunately, but I do 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:14.160 love how you say. It's interactive. We highly recommend everybodyhead 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:17.080 either to the Bloomberg or Bloomberg dot com play around 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.120 with it because you know, you can select an origin, 0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:22.480 you can you just kind of can play around with 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:24.120 it and figure out the best time of the year 0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:24.280 to go. 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:26.080 You know. 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:28.239 The financial part and what it would cost is all 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:30.040 part of it. It's very cool how you guys put 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.280 this list together. Nikki, thank you so much. Happy holidays 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:36.680 and happy almost a new year. Places to go we 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:38.240 travel Hapy travels. 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:39.680 Love it. Take care of Nikki. 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:43.000 That's Nikki x Stein Bloomberg pursuits that global travels are 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:45.359 and be sure to check out the list at Bloomberg 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:47.480 dot com and of course on the Bloomberg terminal too. 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.440 Where would you go? Rocky Mountains were in there too, 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:50.720 you know. 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:54.080 Well Canadian Canada's rocky mountains still rocky mountains. Yeah, that's 0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:56.840 a great place. I would I would I want to 0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:57.720 go to Kazakhstan. 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:00.720 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's right. It sounds like. 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:04.080 What yeah, really cool. This is the scener is just unbelievable. 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:06.360 The information this list tells you why you really want 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:07.919 to go there. And I love that they did the homework. 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.119 Since you and I started doing this together, Carol, what 0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:13.920 I been to zero of these places? 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:15.439 Welcome to having kids? 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:16.199 Hey still I had. 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.320 On Bloomberg Business Week, we reflect on the year that 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:19.840 was for the world's richest man. 0:25:20.119 --> 0:25:21.639 Elon. This is Bloomberg. 0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:26.920 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:29.919 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:32.960 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.200 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:39.840 New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:42.879 Let's now turn to someone who seemed to dominate the 0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:45.399 news cycle in twenty twenty five. Seem to yeah, he 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:49.600 totally dominates. Elon Musk wasn't just sending rockets to space 0:25:49.640 --> 0:25:53.240 and pushing robotaxis forward. He began the year by plunging 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.600 head first into politics, taking the advisory role in the 0:25:56.600 --> 0:26:01.080 Trump Administration's Department of Government Efficiency or do Where Musk 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:03.600 and his team of dozers helped is that what they 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:05.440 call them do they call them dozers. 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:07.119 Doge kids, doge doge kids. 0:26:07.160 --> 0:26:08.280 That's Maxis scientific. 0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:10.320 Doge boys, doage boys. 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:12.000 He's going to come in just a moment, all right. 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:15.400 Well, they helped lead sweeping federal spending cuts and stirred controversy. 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:17.840 Yeah, just a little bit over the reach of private 0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:19.040 power in US government. 0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:21.240 It was a time when you would often see Elon 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:24.439 and sometimes his young son alongside President Trump in the 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:27.360 Oval Office, Elon and the President both taking questions from 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:30.760 reporters addressing US government business. That was early on in 0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:33.080 the year totally. And then of course there was Elon's 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:35.800 black eyes seen around the world from the Oval Office, 0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:38.160 and later the public fallout with President Trump. That still 0:26:38.200 --> 0:26:40.400 seems to exist on some level. It's kind of news 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:42.440 when you see these two together now. 0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:45.000 But the bromance not what it was, it seems. Although 0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:47.639 let's remember in November, Elon was actually back at a 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:51.360 White House dinner for Mohammed Ben Salmon NBS Saudi Arabia's 0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:53.040 crown prints along with other big tech bros. 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:56.320 Remember those sneakers at Elon War. They were all over 0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:57.800 social media, all right. 0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:00.680 Then that's Elon the person. Then there's also Elon Empire, 0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:04.320 the ev company, the clean energy stuff Tesla facing a 0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:07.760 backlash protest tied to his ties to the White House 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:09.080 and political moves. 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:11.760 And then there's SpaceX. It launched more Falcon rockets, had 0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:14.720 successful test flights of its starship Mega Rocket, the world's 0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:18.160 largest and most powerful, shot more Starlink satellites into space, 0:27:18.200 --> 0:27:21.520 and then in December we all got the long awaited 0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:25.800 and anticipated news about a possible blockbuster IPO for SpaceX 0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:28.560 that could be the largest ever with a target evaluation 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:30.560 of about one and a half trillion. December two, we 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:33.520 saw Tesla hitting an all time high. It's first in 0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:36.000 about a year we had to talk about all of this. 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:37.160 It's kind of our backdrop. 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:40.680 Max Chafkin is Bloomberg BusinessWeek senior reporter. He's co host 0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:43.119 of the Everybody's Business podcast. He's the author of the 0:27:43.160 --> 0:27:47.800 Contrarian Peter Thiel and Silicon Valley's Pursuit of Power. So, Max, 0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:50.800 when you think about the year that was for Elon Musk, 0:27:51.000 --> 0:27:53.160 I mean I think about the politics of it. That's 0:27:53.240 --> 0:27:56.800 kind of my biggest My biggest takeaway is his closeness 0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:58.680 and then distance to the President. 0:27:59.040 --> 0:28:03.520 Yeah, I mean he was briefly probably the most powerful 0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:06.439 person in the US government besides Donald Trump. I mean, 0:28:06.480 --> 0:28:11.199 he was at Trump's side pretty much continuously. Trump made 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:16.159 Musk and this this Doge effort, and these young people 0:28:16.200 --> 0:28:19.240 that Elon Musk brought into government central to the beginning 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:22.040 of his administration. It was a big part of this 0:28:22.119 --> 0:28:24.600 effort early on to kind of like flood the zone, 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:28.040 which was a term you heard from Republican operatives. 0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:29.800 And that didn't last very long. 0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:32.639 But at the same time this year, Elon Musk also 0:28:32.840 --> 0:28:36.840 increased his net worth, you know, tremendously. He briefly he 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:39.480 was briefly not the world's richest man. I think Larry Ellison, 0:28:39.520 --> 0:28:40.040 I can't remember. 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:42.280 He's a couple of days. 0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:45.840 And he got the Tesla board to give him a 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:50.520 trillion dollar pay package. So he simultaneously was kind of 0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:54.160 at the seat of power and getting paid more money 0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:56.960 than anybody in history. I mean, of course, those two 0:28:57.000 --> 0:28:59.600 things are related, but they're also complicated by the fact that, 0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:02.400 as he said to him, the relationship with Trump has 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:03.000 been rocky. 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:05.880 You know, he was in the White House but still 0:29:05.920 --> 0:29:07.600 also running a bunch of companies. 0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:12.320 He was running, you know, five companies and that created 0:29:12.400 --> 0:29:15.440 all sorts of interesting complications, and you kind of see 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:20.000 both the way that Elon Musk leveraged his political power 0:29:20.400 --> 0:29:22.960 in the sort of asset prices of these stocks right 0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:25.680 where one of the reasons Tesla's value has gone up 0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:27.920 so much, and that's that's why what has driven Elon 0:29:28.000 --> 0:29:32.040 Musk net worth is this belief that his proximity to 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:37.000 Republicans will allow him to get concessions on policies for 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:41.719 driverless cars. So driverless cars, of course are not widely available. 0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:44.520 They're sort of different explanations for that. But if you 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:46.720 are a teslable, you think one of the explanations is 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:50.800 regulatory and you believe that Elon Musk's proximity to power 0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:55.000 is going to facilitate that. And so we've seen, you know, 0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:58.240 a dramatic run up in the price of Tesla driving 0:29:58.320 --> 0:30:00.840 up to Elon musk Networth. It's kind of similar dynamic 0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:04.040 with SpaceX, which of course is a government contractor. On 0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:07.880 the flip side in terms of consumers, Elon Musk's association 0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:10.800 with what is by now you know, a pretty unpopular 0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:15.200 presidency has really hurt him and you've sort of seen 0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:18.560 it in Tesla's sales where Tesla's sales. He did have 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:23.320 a decent quarter right as the EV tax credits expired, 0:30:23.520 --> 0:30:26.240 but overall, I mean, the sales have been really poor. 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:29.280 You're really seeing a backlash. You're seeing a company that 0:30:29.400 --> 0:30:32.840 managed to alienate a pretty decent swath of its customer base. 0:30:33.160 --> 0:30:36.480 But for now that doesn't matter because Tesla has sort 0:30:36.520 --> 0:30:40.480 of transcended into AI, into the AI firmament, and for 0:30:40.520 --> 0:30:43.720 whatever reason, Tesla has been able to kind of float 0:30:43.760 --> 0:30:45.720 above that. And I think some of that has to 0:30:45.760 --> 0:30:47.360 do with politics. Some of that has to do with 0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:51.120 Elon musk kind of unique relationship with his investor base 0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:53.480 and with his fan base, and yeah, it's just kind 0:30:53.480 --> 0:30:58.040 of the aura of Elon improbably continued this year despite 0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:01.160 all of the controversy and the black eye and all 0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:01.440 of that. 0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:03.360 It makes me think that even with all of that 0:31:03.520 --> 0:31:06.840 and the volatility and the pushback maybe among consumers, still 0:31:06.920 --> 0:31:07.680 a good year. 0:31:07.960 --> 0:31:10.640 I mean, if I told you that there were gonna 0:31:10.640 --> 0:31:13.680 be that Elon Musk was gonna leave the White House 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:16.560 having a huge Twitter war with Donald Trump where they'd 0:31:16.560 --> 0:31:18.959 be trading insults over Epstein, that he would have a 0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:21.600 literal black guy, that there would be reports in the 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:23.560 New York Times which Elon must denied. 0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:24.440 About his drug use. 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:26.840 You have the President of the United States commenting on 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:27.520 those reports. 0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:29.680 You would say like that, you must have. 0:31:31.240 --> 0:31:31.840 He must have been a. 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:36.120 Terrible year for Elon. And yet this guy is he 0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:38.560 is Teflon right. There are there are there are things, 0:31:38.680 --> 0:31:41.600 reputational things that would hurt other people and that seem 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:44.240 to hurt other business people that do not that where 0:31:44.280 --> 0:31:46.040 he is able to float above it. He has this 0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:49.880 very like I said, a very unique relationship with his 0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:52.320 investors and with his fans. And I think that the 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:55.640 truth of it is that Elon may say he's done 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.800 with politics. He may want to be done with politics, 0:31:57.880 --> 0:32:00.440 but he can't be done with politics because he is 0:32:00.520 --> 0:32:04.440 operating in businesses that are are just very close to 0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:09.520 the political heat. Right, Tesla is doing AI stuff. AI stuff, 0:32:09.560 --> 0:32:12.320 of course, is going to be sub subject to regulatory scrutiny. 0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:14.600 You have all this stuff with the AI tax credits. 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:19.160 You have his rocket company, which depends on on government contracts. Like, 0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:22.280 all of this has politics baked into it. So he 0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:25.080 can't get away from politics if he wants to run 0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:27.320 his companies. This idea that he could step away from 0:32:27.360 --> 0:32:30.560 politics to run his business empire. It almost doesn't make 0:32:30.600 --> 0:32:33.040 sense if you actually understand what his business empire is. 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:35.680 There's a great story in the Bloomberg Tesla's Musk Premium 0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:38.400 in focus with the SpaceX ipo on the horizon, and 0:32:38.440 --> 0:32:40.240 it reminds us that the shares are up more than 0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:42.840 one hundred percent since April eighth, making it one of 0:32:42.840 --> 0:32:45.040 the best performers in the S and P five hundred index. 0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:47.120 We won't talk about the valuation because that always freaks 0:32:47.120 --> 0:32:50.040 out everybody because it's pretty high. Having said that, I 0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:52.840 want to talk about its businesses because go back to 0:32:52.920 --> 0:32:56.120 Kathy Wood in the early days, who talked and was 0:32:56.160 --> 0:33:00.080 a big supporter, likened Elon to a Thomas Edison of 0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:03.400 our times. Is he you know Max when it's Neuralink, 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:08.880 it's AI, it's Grock, it's SpaceX, it's Starlink, Like, there's 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:10.480 a lot of stuff boring company. 0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:12.240 I don't even know what's going on with that anymore. 0:33:13.240 --> 0:33:16.160 Is he still though kind of seen as a creative 0:33:16.200 --> 0:33:19.000 genius and moving the needle in our world? 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:22.880 Well, he's within some corners of the business world. He 0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:26.240 is absolutely seen as as somebody on that level, on 0:33:26.280 --> 0:33:28.880 the Thomas Edison level. I mean, I think in terms 0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:33.360 of inventions and and that comparison. He didn't invent electric cars, 0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:36.960 he didn't invent the rocket engine that he is he's using, 0:33:37.360 --> 0:33:41.000 But but he has been a very successful at sort 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:46.160 of taking existing technologies and manufacturing them and marketing him 0:33:46.440 --> 0:33:48.200 you know, he's it's it's almost a cliche to compare 0:33:48.240 --> 0:33:49.800 him to Steve Jobs, but I think it's similar to 0:33:49.840 --> 0:33:53.560 Steve Jobs. It's it's not he's not a technical genius, 0:33:53.600 --> 0:33:57.680 but he is really really good at marketing and sort 0:33:57.720 --> 0:34:01.240 of understanding how to how to create, you know, products, 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:03.160 whether those are products that are sold to the government 0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:06.640 or products that are sold to consumers. And I mean, 0:34:06.680 --> 0:34:09.360 I think you also have to say he is pretty 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:13.319 good at managing investors and managing politics. I mean, as 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:16.359 messed up as it was, as chaotic as it was, 0:34:16.920 --> 0:34:20.200 he managed to play a pretty big role in Donald 0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:24.280 Trump's election, and he is still like a political powerbroker, 0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:27.399 and he's he's going to continue to be that, I 0:34:27.440 --> 0:34:29.440 think in the years to come. 0:34:29.920 --> 0:34:31.959 I feel like the bulk of this conversation was about 0:34:31.960 --> 0:34:35.120 politics rather than his businesses. Does that say something or 0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:39.000 or the politics is what really supports As you said, 0:34:39.040 --> 0:34:40.839 they're intertwined in many ways, right. 0:34:41.560 --> 0:34:44.160 I mean, I think the story around Elon now is 0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:48.840 an investor story. It's it's a story about investors making 0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:51.759 a bet and believing, as you said, Carol, running that 0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:54.880 stock up really really high, based on a belief in 0:34:54.920 --> 0:34:58.040 the future. And it's it's less about what the company 0:34:58.120 --> 0:34:59.680 is doing now, because what the company is doing now, 0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:03.520 ESLA is doing now anyway, has not been particularly successful. 0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:05.680 But it's a belief that you know, driverlest cars are 0:35:05.680 --> 0:35:08.400 coming any day now, and you know there are a 0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:10.799 lot of people in the stock market who think that's true. 0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:12.600 So we're not gonna hear about him in twenty twenty. 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:16.560 Okay, So just we could have done this for twenty 0:35:16.680 --> 0:35:18.160 thirty forty minutes, Max, we. 0:35:18.320 --> 0:35:19.560 Barely scratch the surface. 0:35:19.719 --> 0:35:24.080 Yeah, twenty twenty six SpaceX's IPO. I imagine we are 0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:26.120 going to be spending quite a bit of time talking 0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:27.319 about Elon next year. 0:35:28.040 --> 0:35:30.480 I mean, we're definitely gonna be talking about Elon. I 0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:33.200 think that, you know, we'll see if that IPO happens 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:33.880 on schedule. 0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:36.280 You're a little skeptical, No, No, I'm not skeptical. 0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:39.080 I just think it's very I think anytime we're talking 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:42.560 about a mega IPO like that, we're talking about trying 0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:46.360 to time the markets, and and I think there's just 0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:48.719 a lot of uncertainty in the market. So so yeah, 0:35:48.760 --> 0:35:52.759 I mean, if markets are doing what they're currently doing, 0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:55.120 then I think there's a very good chance that Elon 0:35:55.200 --> 0:35:57.520 Musk might say, yeah, this is this makes sense. On 0:35:57.560 --> 0:35:59.680 the other hand, he has for years and years and 0:35:59.760 --> 0:36:01.799 years talked about how much he hates running a public company. 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:06.240 Remember he nuked his reputation like seven years ago because 0:36:06.239 --> 0:36:09.719 he hated having Tesla a public so much. And I 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:12.440 think it makes sense to do it again with SpaceX, 0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:15.800 just because the public markets give him so much leverage. 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:19.040 His ability to just get whatever he wants from the 0:36:19.080 --> 0:36:22.840 stock market and from kind of retail investors is so important. 0:36:22.880 --> 0:36:25.600 Would be helpful to SpaceX, just as it's helpful to Tesla. 0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:28.000 But if he can't do that at a good price, 0:36:28.200 --> 0:36:30.960 I don't think he will because why would he doesn't 0:36:30.960 --> 0:36:31.719 necessarily have to. 0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:33.600 I gotta ask, and I know we have to wrap 0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:37.000 but X formally Twitter is I we talk about it, 0:36:37.040 --> 0:36:38.960 I know, is it just didn't significant or it's just 0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:40.520 I don't even know does he even use it that 0:36:40.600 --> 0:36:41.280 much anymore? 0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:46.120 You know, I think part so x is definitely less 0:36:46.520 --> 0:36:49.440 like broadly influential than it used to be as a 0:36:49.520 --> 0:36:50.839 kind of like media thing. 0:36:51.120 --> 0:36:51.319 Now. 0:36:51.360 --> 0:36:54.440 Part of that is because Elon Musk brought back all 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:58.360 these kind of right wingers who were banned for various reasons, 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:01.400 and the site has become sort of more of a 0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:05.280 conservative social network. Right, it's kind of like Fox News 0:37:05.440 --> 0:37:10.480 to Instagram's you know, MSNBC or something like that. And 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:12.239 so as a result, right it doesn't have the same 0:37:12.360 --> 0:37:14.480 kind of broad influence where but it is still very 0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:17.440 influential kind of on the right. It is where like 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:19.200 if you are if you're on the right, it's where 0:37:19.200 --> 0:37:22.440 you're talking to your friends, rivals, et cetera. The other 0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:24.920 thing is like it's it's like an AI thing now 0:37:24.960 --> 0:37:29.120 it's just a it's just a way for grock x 0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.600 AI Elon Musk's answer, just chat GPT to to sort 0:37:32.600 --> 0:37:36.279 of gather information. And so for those it's it's not 0:37:36.320 --> 0:37:38.560 like it's become less valuable. I think, in fact, it's 0:37:38.560 --> 0:37:41.160 probably become more valuable over the last year, but it's 0:37:41.200 --> 0:37:43.080 probably less influential than it was. 0:37:43.960 --> 0:37:46.920 Max Chafkin, we could go on with you for hours. 0:37:46.960 --> 0:37:50.320 We appreciate you taking the time. That's Max Chaffkin, Bloomberg 0:37:50.360 --> 0:37:53.080 BusinessWeek Senior reporter. He's the co host of the Everybody's 0:37:53.120 --> 0:37:55.839 Business podcast. He's the author of The Concherion, Peter Thiel 0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:57.760 and Silicon Valley's Pursuit of Power. 0:37:57.800 --> 0:37:59.279 And that wraps up our first hour of the weekend 0:37:59.400 --> 0:38:01.479 edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. 0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:02.520 Coming up in the next. 0:38:02.280 --> 0:38:05.799 Sixty minutes a holiday reading list, perhaps including an eye 0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:09.880 opening exploration into digital empires and the global regulation of 0:38:09.960 --> 0:38:11.640 AI technology. 0:38:11.239 --> 0:38:14.760 Plus unlocking the best in one another. That's what behavioral 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:18.759 psychologist John Leevy calls collective genius. And he was the 0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:21.040 CEO of John Bajuice, on the board of the honest 0:38:21.080 --> 0:38:23.840 Company CAVA, and now he's helping others build an organization 0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:24.480 with purpose. 0:38:24.920 --> 0:38:26.839 James D. White joins us in the next hour. 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:29.879 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser. 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:30.560 And I'm Tim Stenebeck. 0:38:35.280 --> 0:38:39.279 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch us 0:38:39.360 --> 0:38:42.800 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen 0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:46.400 on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:38:46.560 --> 0:38:48.040 or watch us live on. 0:38:47.920 --> 0:38:50.640 YouTube Plenty Ahead in our second hour of the weekend 0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:53.680 edition of Bloomberg Business Week, It's a holiday reading list 0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:55.360 from some of the authors we spoke to in the 0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:58.799 last few months, including one the author of a book 0:38:58.800 --> 0:39:02.279 about an alternative way we think about great leaders, and 0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:04.000 I gotta tell you it just may be time to 0:39:04.000 --> 0:39:06.640 throw out all those other management books. We will talk 0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:10.120 to the author of Team Intelligence, how brilliant leaders unlock 0:39:10.200 --> 0:39:11.720 collective genius. 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:14.360 Plus the former CEO of jam Bajus on shaping company 0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:18.000 culture in the age of gen Z employees. First up 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:20.560 this hour, though our phones, our data, the apps we 0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:22.880 use every day. Behind it all is a quiet but 0:39:23.000 --> 0:39:26.120 consequential power struggle over who gets to make the rules 0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:29.239 of the digital world. Our next guest examines how the 0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:33.000 world's biggest powers, the US, China and the EU are 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:36.080 exporting their digital rule books and what that means for 0:39:36.160 --> 0:39:39.080 all of us. The question how is the future of 0:39:39.120 --> 0:39:40.359 the digital world going? 0:39:40.360 --> 0:39:43.440 To Look For help Answering that question, Emily Graffeo and 0:39:43.480 --> 0:39:45.120 Tim spoke to a new Bradford. 0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:46.480 She is Henry L. 0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:50.240 Moses Professor of Law and International Organization at Columbia Law School. 0:39:50.640 --> 0:39:54.360 She's also the author of the book Digital Empires, The 0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:56.440 Global Battle to regulate Technology. 0:39:57.160 --> 0:39:59.560 So thanks so much for having me, Tim and Emily. 0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:03.600 We may well be cooked, but the question is what 0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:06.080 are we most worried about. I think there are many 0:40:06.120 --> 0:40:09.800 exciting developments. I think we're certainly more entertained in many ways. 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.000 But at the same time, I think those who warned 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:16.400 us early on that this is not the kind of 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:19.680 AI revolution that we should be just leaving for the 0:40:19.760 --> 0:40:24.360 tech companies to govern to manage. We do need governments involved. 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:27.000 We need some guardrails, we need some regulation to make 0:40:27.040 --> 0:40:30.600 sure that these fast advances that we are witnessing are 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:32.719 moving to the direction that we're comfortable with. 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:34.719 It seems like it's too late, though. 0:40:34.920 --> 0:40:37.160 I don't think it's too late. I think we certainly 0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:39.960 are not at the point where we can say that 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:43.160 AI is done. I think we will continue to see 0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:48.360 massive developments in coming years, and we already have AI 0:40:48.480 --> 0:40:53.080 governance regulation on the radar of many lawmakers. And obviously 0:40:53.120 --> 0:40:57.280 the Europeans have been most proactive, as they usually are, 0:40:57.760 --> 0:41:02.799 and they have the AI a comprehensive piece of legislation 0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:05.680 that is already in force, and now it's then the 0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:09.600 matter of implementing it effectively. And then we also need 0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:11.920 to see what happens in the United States at the 0:41:11.920 --> 0:41:16.279 state level. China is definitely interested in governing AI. We 0:41:16.360 --> 0:41:19.239 have many other jurisdictions, so I think there is a 0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:22.080 lot that is happening and a lot more that needs 0:41:22.080 --> 0:41:22.760 to be done. 0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:28.520 In your new book, Digital Empires, you break apart how 0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:35.160 basically different regimes across the globe are governing and regulating 0:41:35.200 --> 0:41:39.440 AI differently. So there's the US, there's Europe, there's China. 0:41:40.040 --> 0:41:44.440 In your research, have you found one nation is kind 0:41:44.480 --> 0:41:48.560 of doing that balancing act the best so far in 0:41:48.640 --> 0:41:50.800 terms of balancing out They don't want to stifle innovation, 0:41:51.320 --> 0:41:55.200 but they also want to protect users of AI, consumers 0:41:55.200 --> 0:41:59.680 of AI, companies that are getting involved with AI. Who's 0:41:59.719 --> 0:42:01.279 doing balancing act the best? 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:01.799 In your view? 0:42:02.440 --> 0:42:05.440 So I think any regulator really needs to think about 0:42:05.440 --> 0:42:09.160 this balancing to make sure that we harness these tremendous 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:13.640 benefits that are associated with AI, but also really safeguard 0:42:13.680 --> 0:42:18.520 our citizens and societies from various risks. And in many ways, 0:42:19.160 --> 0:42:22.359 there is a perception that the Europeans are airing on 0:42:22.480 --> 0:42:28.280 the side or preemptively protecting against these risks and maybe 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:31.880 then foregoing some of the innovation benefits, whereas the Americans 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:35.040 would be airing on the side of maybe being very 0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:39.160 techno optimists and not thinking about all those potential downsides. 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:44.200 I think in many ways I do like and endorse 0:42:44.280 --> 0:42:47.640 the European model in the sense that, in my view, 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:52.960 that best safeguards the public interest and really takes seriously 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:57.760 the fundamental rights of individuals and democratic structures of the society. 0:42:58.360 --> 0:43:00.920 But there is always I really reject this notion that 0:43:00.960 --> 0:43:04.759 this comes at the cost of innovation. There definitely is 0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:08.160 a gap where the Americans are doing much better in 0:43:08.239 --> 0:43:12.360 generating AI innovations compared to the Europeans. But the reason 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:15.239 is not that the Europeans are so keen on regulating. 0:43:15.640 --> 0:43:18.600 I think there are many other reasons that explain why. 0:43:18.600 --> 0:43:21.520 There are just fundamental pillars of the tech ecosystem in 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:24.399 the US that are much stronger and the Europeans have 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:29.480 fallen short in replicating that. So regulation as such, the 0:43:29.520 --> 0:43:34.480 protection of those rights is not a choice that needs 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:37.960 to come at the cost of making beneficial progress in 0:43:38.000 --> 0:43:38.480 this space. 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:43.040 So you know, I keep going back to our conversation 0:43:43.080 --> 0:43:44.640 that I had with you two years ago, because the 0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:49.000 world has changed so much since then. Two years ago, 0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:52.520 Joe Biden was president, there were a lot of folks 0:43:52.520 --> 0:43:56.720 who didn't think that Donald Trump would win another term. 0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:01.120 Fast forward two years, Donald Trump is the president. David 0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:06.880 Sachs's crypto and aisar the regime is thinks about this 0:44:07.040 --> 0:44:09.920 completely differently than I think it's fair to say the 0:44:09.920 --> 0:44:14.000 Biden administration. What do you think the US needs to 0:44:14.040 --> 0:44:17.879 be doing right now to regulate this technology? What would 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:19.160 you like to see David Sachs do? 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:23.560 Yeah, so you're so right. There has been a complete 0:44:23.680 --> 0:44:25.839 U turn in many ways. Towards the end of the 0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:32.120 Biden administration. There was closer alignment between the traditional Transatlantic allies, 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:35.520 where the US was really moving closer to the European 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:39.799 view that technology like AI needs guardrails, and there was 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:43.480 a genuine attempt to join forces among the world's techno 0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:47.960 democracies in order to halt the advances of Chinese digital 0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:52.360 authoritarian views of governing technology. So I really saw this 0:44:52.880 --> 0:44:55.960 potential for the US and the EU to join forces 0:44:56.000 --> 0:44:59.160 to bring about a very beneficial chase in this space. 0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:02.359 The US is doing, I think two things. So it's 0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:04.880 first of all, giving a lot more power to the 0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:11.719 tech companies, walking away from regulation, impraising these deregulatory zeal 0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:17.320 that really reflects the very strong form of Technolbertarian techno 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:20.120 optimist firl wheel. But in many ways, the US is 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:24.839 also playing Beijing's game and becoming very state driven. We 0:45:24.920 --> 0:45:30.040 see a nassive state investment in some of these leading 0:45:30.080 --> 0:45:36.080 tech companies. We see our export controls, investment restrictions, we 0:45:36.120 --> 0:45:40.360 see subsidies. So the US is, to me are losing 0:45:40.480 --> 0:45:43.640 some of its own goals. And if you think about 0:45:43.640 --> 0:45:46.960 how that will also impact the US's adamant goal of 0:45:46.960 --> 0:45:49.360 being a leader in AI, what is happening in the 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:53.719 space of integration, I think that is really counterproductive if 0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:57.759 you think about where all those AI innovation comes innovations 0:45:57.800 --> 0:45:59.640 come from the US. So what the US would need 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:03.840 to do first, The US would need to regulate this space. 0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:06.719 We need to make sure that fundamental rights are protected, 0:46:06.800 --> 0:46:10.480 we need to make sure that those societal risks are 0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:13.439 under control, and we need to also, at the same 0:46:13.480 --> 0:46:16.040 time make sure that we will continue to invest in 0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:19.440 the development of the AI by retaining the world's best talent, 0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:24.399 which often is immigrant talent, including then Chinese data scientists 0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:27.759 who have been contributing to advances in this space in 0:46:27.800 --> 0:46:28.520 the US. 0:46:28.800 --> 0:46:33.440 Is there any specific regulation that comes to mind like 0:46:33.520 --> 0:46:37.000 that you would want to see in the US that 0:46:38.160 --> 0:46:42.600 would prevent this kind of idea that Tim presented in 0:46:42.640 --> 0:46:47.000 the beginning of the segment about this, the spaghetti test. 0:46:47.040 --> 0:46:49.680 It sounds silly, the will Smith spaghetti test, but it gets. 0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:52.000 At the heart crazy. 0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:55.319 Yeah, concerned that people have that suddenly the Internet is 0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:58.960 going to be, you know, filled with these videos. 0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:03.319 We're we are and we think it's the end. 0:47:03.400 --> 0:47:06.520 I'm sorry, well, maybe we can have a professor help, 0:47:07.080 --> 0:47:07.759 she said. 0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:09.880 She said, it's not the end already, great. 0:47:09.800 --> 0:47:12.840 Right, for it's not the end. Is there a specific 0:47:12.840 --> 0:47:14.920 piece of regulation that that comes to mind? Is it 0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:19.319 about I don't know, digital privacy, people needing disclaimers on 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:22.080 top of every video that you see on the Internet. 0:47:22.480 --> 0:47:25.040 So I think there are many aspects, and there's no 0:47:25.200 --> 0:47:27.000 easy way to say that you just need to do 0:47:27.080 --> 0:47:30.200 one thing in order to then address this multitude of 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:34.560 different arms. But one thing, it does start from the 0:47:34.600 --> 0:47:38.040 protection of privacy and our agency and our ability to 0:47:38.080 --> 0:47:40.840 be able to tell what is fiction and what is not, 0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:44.879 and our ability to engage in conversation based on real 0:47:44.920 --> 0:47:50.319 information that is not manipulated by our AI. And this 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:56.799 information obviously existed even without chat GPT type of tools, 0:47:57.000 --> 0:48:02.919 but they are now fueled with this AI driven ability 0:48:03.360 --> 0:48:06.840 to manipulate our sense of reality. So in many ways, 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:09.560 I think it does need labeling. It does need the 0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:13.680 kind of transparency and accountability that we have a sense 0:48:13.920 --> 0:48:17.560 of how these AI systems are built and how we 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:21.480 engage with them. But then there are also risks around 0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:24.600 and just protecting content content creators. We need to take 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:28.120 copyright seriously and the idea of how we actually train 0:48:28.200 --> 0:48:31.600 these models with the data that has been generated by 0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:35.440 individual authors, by journalists, and that needs to be also 0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:38.400 compensated well so that we still have the incentive to 0:48:38.520 --> 0:48:42.440 engage in that kind of content production. But privacy is 0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:45.600 obviously very high on my list, This information is very 0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:48.640 high on my list. Then there are questions that are 0:48:48.680 --> 0:48:53.560 more about existential risks, more about systemic risks, And even 0:48:53.600 --> 0:48:57.160 if it's hard to sometimes know the probabilities of some 0:48:57.200 --> 0:49:01.920 of the most severe risks and how likely they are 0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:05.840 to materialize, we still need to be prepared to also 0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:09.279 as a society, to confront that kind of reality when 0:49:09.400 --> 0:49:13.200 AI advance is really fast and we reach the point 0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:16.040 when we find even harder to govern that technology. So 0:49:16.080 --> 0:49:19.000 I think there are all these layers, and we are 0:49:19.000 --> 0:49:21.520 not even really having, at least at the federal level, 0:49:21.640 --> 0:49:24.720 a real conversation in how we go about regulating this space. 0:49:25.080 --> 0:49:28.080 Professor Anu Bradford Henry el Moses, Professor of Law and 0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:31.040 an International Organization at Columbia Law School. She's the author 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:34.120 of several books, including her most recent Digital Empires, The 0:49:34.160 --> 0:49:37.839 Global Battle to Regulate Technology, published back in twenty twenty three, 0:49:37.880 --> 0:49:40.959 but as relevant right now as it was two years ago. 0:49:41.280 --> 0:49:43.640 Please do come back soon and join us here on 0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:45.279 at Bloomberg Business Week Daily. 0:49:47.120 --> 0:49:50.959 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 0:49:51.080 --> 0:49:53.960 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:56.879 Play and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 0:49:56.960 --> 0:49:59.680 You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 0:49:59.719 --> 0:50:03.880 Flag New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:50:04.840 --> 0:50:08.680 Elon has it, so too does President Trump and Steve 0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:10.560 Jobs also as well. 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:13.680 We're talking about leadership. I mean, these are all leaders. 0:50:14.239 --> 0:50:16.720 John Leevy thinks about leadership a lot. He argues, though, 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:19.719 that one thing all leaders have in common is not 0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:22.759 the thing that we're told when it comes to these 0:50:22.840 --> 0:50:26.680 executive coaches or these business school courses, like you know, 0:50:27.080 --> 0:50:30.280 empathy or humility, those. 0:50:30.120 --> 0:50:30.760 Sorts of things. 0:50:31.120 --> 0:50:34.280 He says, it's something else. John Levy is a behavioral 0:50:34.320 --> 0:50:37.000 scientist and New York Times bestselling author. He's got a 0:50:37.040 --> 0:50:41.120 new book out, Team Intelligence, How brilliant leaders unlock collective genius. 0:50:41.560 --> 0:50:45.720 Let's think about it like this. Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, Right, 0:50:45.920 --> 0:50:49.880 they weren't great at creating psychological safety or even getting 0:50:49.880 --> 0:50:53.520 consensus among their leadership. Yet people still hold them up 0:50:53.520 --> 0:50:56.400 as these examples of amazing leaders. The problem is that 0:50:56.440 --> 0:51:00.879 what we've been sold is that, and mostly through universities 0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:03.080 like Harvard, Gale and so on, is that we have 0:51:03.120 --> 0:51:05.520 to have these essential skills if you want to be 0:51:05.560 --> 0:51:07.279 a leader, and if you pay them a whole lot 0:51:07.320 --> 0:51:09.839 of money, they'll teach you those skills and then you'll 0:51:09.840 --> 0:51:12.840 be a certified leader. Congratulations. The problem is it just 0:51:12.840 --> 0:51:15.560 doesn't track. When we really started looking at this, there 0:51:15.600 --> 0:51:18.400 was only one trait that was common across all leaders. 0:51:18.560 --> 0:51:19.560 What is it? 0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:23.360 It's that they have followers. It's so self referential and 0:51:23.400 --> 0:51:26.239 it's kind of ridiculous, and so we really wanted to 0:51:26.239 --> 0:51:29.640 ask the question. Then, Okay, what causes us to follow someone? 0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:34.920 Generally people say, okay, it's vision and charisma, but that 0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:36.839 doesn't make sense. There are plenty of people who have 0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:39.880 no vision and no charisma, still people follow them. 0:51:39.960 --> 0:51:40.360 Yeah. 0:51:40.440 --> 0:51:42.640 So the answer, it turns out, comes down to this. 0:51:43.080 --> 0:51:45.960 Do you remember how you felt when you were in 0:51:46.040 --> 0:51:49.960 high school on Sunday at six pm? The Sunday scaries? Now, 0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:51.520 why you think about this? You were free, you were 0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:54.280 at home, but you felt anxious. Friday at one o'clock 0:51:54.320 --> 0:51:56.760 you were in class. But how did you feel? 0:51:56.880 --> 0:51:57.160 Great? 0:51:57.360 --> 0:52:00.680 Yeah, so exciting, ecstatic. And that's because as human beings 0:52:00.719 --> 0:52:03.680 don't relate to the present, they relate to the future 0:52:03.719 --> 0:52:06.239 that they believe they have. If you can make me 0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:08.920 feel you don't live in the moment, definitely not. We 0:52:09.040 --> 0:52:12.759 believe we tend to have this association right now to 0:52:12.840 --> 0:52:15.879 what we think is about to happen. And so in 0:52:16.040 --> 0:52:18.440 high school on Sunday, what was going to happen was 0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:21.560 school the next day? Or if you're about to leave 0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:23.640 for vacation. You might be sitting at work, but you're 0:52:23.680 --> 0:52:28.040 wildly excited. The reason we follow somebody is because when 0:52:28.080 --> 0:52:31.040 we interact with them or their media, they cause us 0:52:31.080 --> 0:52:33.200 to feel that there'll be a new and better future. 0:52:34.000 --> 0:52:34.440 That's it. 0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:37.840 So that's fascinating. So let's take it to somebody. 0:52:38.040 --> 0:52:44.120 President Trump is that kind of his success or where 0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:44.840 he is today? 0:52:44.880 --> 0:52:45.759 It's because of that. 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:49.520 I would argue that people in general vote for whoever 0:52:49.560 --> 0:52:51.840 they feel will cause them to have a new and 0:52:51.920 --> 0:52:56.359 better future, whether it's President Trump or it's investing into 0:52:56.400 --> 0:53:00.200 Elon Musk's companies. Listen, when you read the report of 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:04.399 what he's like as a boss at Elon, right, it's 0:53:04.440 --> 0:53:06.320 not the type of boss that we exemplify. 0:53:06.400 --> 0:53:08.000 I mean, you might not even have to read reports 0:53:08.000 --> 0:53:09.239 of what he's like as a boss. You could just 0:53:09.320 --> 0:53:11.560 follow him on social media and he had a good 0:53:12.080 --> 0:53:13.400 understanding of his personality. 0:53:13.880 --> 0:53:17.319 And when you do, you have to ask yourself like, 0:53:17.440 --> 0:53:19.440 is this really the person I'd want to be reporting to? 0:53:19.880 --> 0:53:23.840 And the answer is maybe not. But what he's amazing 0:53:23.880 --> 0:53:26.600 at is he has a handful of super skills that 0:53:26.719 --> 0:53:30.000 nobody else has. Right, he thinks at scale and moves 0:53:30.160 --> 0:53:33.240 faster than anyone in our society. And those super skills 0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:36.120 are so profound that when we interact with him, people 0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:39.759 will either say, hey, we'll give him a trillion dollar bonus, right, 0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:42.600 or we will come and work for you, or we 0:53:42.640 --> 0:53:45.520 want to launch things into space. But it's not because 0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:46.800 he's charismatic. 0:53:46.400 --> 0:53:47.920 Right, I mean, look at the example of when he 0:53:48.080 --> 0:53:51.080 pieced together the Doge team. What was the what were 0:53:51.120 --> 0:53:53.239 the qualifications that he put out there? Right, you have 0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:55.680 to work eighty hours a week, You're not going to 0:53:55.680 --> 0:53:58.200 get paid. Yeah, and you know he has sign he 0:53:58.239 --> 0:54:00.840 had people from all over the country who not just 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:02.840 wanted to work with him, but believed in his mission. 0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:03.160 Yeah. 0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:06.360 It's really kind of fascinating. So the things that we get, 0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:11.040 so being nice and generous is not necessarily things that 0:54:11.080 --> 0:54:12.320 are going to make a good leaders. 0:54:12.360 --> 0:54:14.799 So I want to separate two things though. Okay, let's 0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:19.640 separate being an effective leader from having followers. Having followers 0:54:19.680 --> 0:54:21.600 just means that people feel that you'll have a new 0:54:21.640 --> 0:54:24.320 and better or they'll feel doesn't mean you will correct 0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:27.959 because you could have somebody who's incompetent leading a bunch 0:54:27.960 --> 0:54:31.920 of morons frankly and get nowhere When we actually started 0:54:31.920 --> 0:54:34.319 looking at the research of what causes teams to be 0:54:34.360 --> 0:54:37.520 really effective. It came from a woman named Anita Williams Willie, 0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:41.360 and what she found in running a whole series of 0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:44.200 experiments is that none of the things that we actually 0:54:44.239 --> 0:54:49.120 thought actually make a team more effective. Right, So IQ 0:54:49.239 --> 0:54:53.400 of the smartest person no effect, average IQ, no effect. 0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:56.759 How much people liked each other not a great predictor, right. 0:54:56.840 --> 0:54:59.359 Do you need to trust each other, sure, or think 0:54:59.360 --> 0:55:02.480 that somebody's competent. Yeah, but you don't necessarily need to 0:55:02.600 --> 0:55:04.960 want to invite everybody you work with your wedding or 0:55:04.960 --> 0:55:07.880 something like that. The single greatest predictor the number of 0:55:07.920 --> 0:55:08.839 women on the team. 0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:10.960 Yeah. 0:55:11.000 --> 0:55:12.759 And I want to be clear, it's not because they're women. 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:15.640 It's not a chromosomal thing. We're not out of a job. 0:55:15.680 --> 0:55:17.520 Don't worry. 0:55:17.680 --> 0:55:18.640 It was looking at me. 0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:24.640 Yeah, it's because women index high on emotional intelligence, and 0:55:24.719 --> 0:55:26.520 so there are plenty of men with high emotional intelligence, 0:55:26.600 --> 0:55:27.680 plenty of women who don't have any. 0:55:27.800 --> 0:55:31.080 But this makes a better Wait, so more women on 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:32.319 a team means what. 0:55:32.960 --> 0:55:35.560 That, on average, you have more emotional intelligence on the team, 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:37.680 and then the team can function better because they can 0:55:37.680 --> 0:55:41.799 coordinate better, and then they outperform because when you have 0:55:41.840 --> 0:55:44.799 a single person sport, it's all about pure talent, right 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:47.719 or activity. But when you have a group, you've gone 0:55:47.760 --> 0:55:51.720 from taking your shots to passing either information or the ball. Now, 0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:54.560 if I can't communicate with you, we are not going 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:56.520 to be able to work well together. Right. Having that 0:55:56.600 --> 0:56:00.160 high emotional intelligence on the team means that we know 0:56:00.160 --> 0:56:01.719 when to push on a topic and when not to, 0:56:02.280 --> 0:56:04.400 who to call on even if they're being quiet and 0:56:04.440 --> 0:56:05.439 get the information out. 0:56:05.760 --> 0:56:10.239 Your behavioral side, well, what is your credential in this? 0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:15.279 Because you've studied behavioral science, but you know there are 0:56:15.480 --> 0:56:21.480 entire curricula that are dedicated to teaching leadership that ostensibly 0:56:21.600 --> 0:56:26.359 have evidence backed you know, elements that are backed by 0:56:26.360 --> 0:56:27.959 studies that say this is the right way. 0:56:27.880 --> 0:56:28.319 To do things. 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:32.279 And you're essentially saying that's not really the right predictor here, 0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:33.759 we have been looking at the right thing. What's the 0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:36.200 evidence that you have when it comes to number. 0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:38.239 Of followers or people who are actually. 0:56:38.160 --> 0:56:41.200 Following this charismatic personality that says this is the right outcome. 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:44.880 So let's separate a few things on the team stuff. 0:56:44.960 --> 0:56:47.680 There's a bunch of research. I mentioned Anita Williams Willie, 0:56:48.040 --> 0:56:50.759 and there's several studies that back the same thing that 0:56:50.800 --> 0:56:54.280 teams with more emotional intelligence outperform on the leadership side. 0:56:54.400 --> 0:56:57.480 When you actually look at all of the studies on 0:56:57.520 --> 0:57:01.640 people who've gotten MBAs versus those didn't, there they find 0:57:01.640 --> 0:57:05.799 that there's absolutely no improvement in performance whatsoever having an 0:57:05.880 --> 0:57:09.880 NBA versus not compared. And there's like several of these 0:57:09.920 --> 0:57:11.960 studies on the three year mark, five year mark, seven 0:57:12.000 --> 0:57:16.040 year mark, there's no evidence in better management skills or 0:57:16.080 --> 0:57:19.360 anything like that. And so the skills that we're told 0:57:19.400 --> 0:57:21.959 are essential, we might not really be able to train 0:57:22.040 --> 0:57:24.560 them in the way that these programs are running. 0:57:24.960 --> 0:57:27.080 The reason I ask about your reason, I know you 0:57:27.120 --> 0:57:28.560 want to jump in, but the reason I ask about 0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:32.240 the credentialing here is because you have this background and 0:57:32.920 --> 0:57:36.520 having these dinners hosting thousands of people over the last 0:57:36.560 --> 0:57:41.160 ten years, fifteen people, fifteen years, four thousand people. These 0:57:41.200 --> 0:57:45.160 are private influencer dinners where you have had no about 0:57:45.200 --> 0:57:52.160 laureates Limp. You were listening tones together from two to 0:57:52.240 --> 0:57:54.280 five people. What the takeaways that you've been able to 0:57:54.320 --> 0:57:57.480 gather from getting this disparate group of people together or 0:57:57.680 --> 0:57:58.800 watch us live on you. 0:57:59.520 --> 0:58:03.880 So there's kind of two main things that I've really noticed. 0:58:04.200 --> 0:58:07.240 The first is that all of them are at the 0:58:07.280 --> 0:58:10.880 top of their industry, whether they're commanding the International Space 0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:15.800 Station or they're running a major company, and none of 0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:19.640 them have the same characteristics at all. Malala does not 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:22.920 produce results in the same way as a military commander, 0:58:23.160 --> 0:58:26.200 but people follow and will go very far in both 0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:30.240 cases right to support that cause. The second is, and 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:32.280 this is kind of a wilder thing that people don't 0:58:33.840 --> 0:58:36.960 really notice, is that no matter how successful people are, 0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:40.280 they tend not to feel like they fit in or 0:58:40.360 --> 0:58:44.040 belong because the CEO knows that they've had three great quarters, 0:58:44.080 --> 0:58:45.720 but if the next two are off there, they might 0:58:45.760 --> 0:58:48.240 be out of a job. And the olympian knows that 0:58:48.360 --> 0:58:51.440 maybe they won at the last Olympics, but who knows 0:58:51.480 --> 0:58:53.400 if they'll even qualify at the next one, and then 0:58:53.400 --> 0:58:56.600 no one will care. And so no matter what, there's 0:58:56.640 --> 0:59:01.160 this absolute factor that people feel a great desire to 0:59:01.200 --> 0:59:03.720 want to fit in and belong, which brings me to 0:59:04.000 --> 0:59:07.000 my real desire to understand is clearly those leadership traits 0:59:07.000 --> 0:59:09.920 didn't matter. And if there's such a great desire to belong. 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:13.640 It's because human beings tend to be best with each other. 0:59:14.040 --> 0:59:17.080 So let's try and understand at our core what will 0:59:17.120 --> 0:59:18.920 allow us to be best with each other. And that's 0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:21.880 what the book explores, which is what are the characteristics 0:59:21.880 --> 0:59:24.280 that makes teams smarter than the sum of their parts? 0:59:24.320 --> 0:59:30.880 Okay, so why if that is our driving force? 0:59:31.440 --> 0:59:35.400 When I look at Congress, and I know you layer politics. 0:59:34.800 --> 0:59:37.440 On things, and things change. But if we are better. 0:59:37.320 --> 0:59:38.240 They cannot be studied. 0:59:38.360 --> 0:59:42.240 If we are better as a group and a community, 0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:43.120 and yes. 0:59:43.040 --> 0:59:45.520 Indeed right, they have to vote on things, and so 0:59:45.560 --> 0:59:48.080 when they work together, things can actually move forward, or 0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:49.000 at least move. 0:59:49.440 --> 0:59:51.960 Why does that not work its way out? 0:59:52.200 --> 0:59:55.160 So that's I think a great question. And I want 0:59:55.160 --> 0:59:57.080 to be very clear. I don't study politics. I'm not 0:59:57.080 --> 0:59:57.920 an actually and. 0:59:58.480 --> 1:00:01.680 Full disclosure like you lay politics on everything. 1:00:01.360 --> 1:00:02.600 And so a little bit different. 1:00:02.680 --> 1:00:05.400 I'm under the impression that things changed, and this is 1:00:05.440 --> 1:00:07.840 what I've been told after Newt Gingridge was in Congress, 1:00:07.920 --> 1:00:12.160 because he really pushed for less cooperation and also for 1:00:12.200 --> 1:00:15.160 people to spend more time in their home districts. Now, 1:00:15.880 --> 1:00:18.520 when that occurs, then we have something called the mirror 1:00:18.520 --> 1:00:22.000 exposure effect. The mirror exposure effect is simply here's the 1:00:22.000 --> 1:00:25.720 funny thing. Have you ever what would you consider the 1:00:25.720 --> 1:00:27.160 greatest painting of all time? 1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:29.680 Well, people will say Mona Lisa exactly. 1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:30.240 Do you know why? 1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:33.720 Isn't it the perfectly symmetrical. 1:00:33.240 --> 1:00:36.920 That's what tell you. But that's frankly not true. In 1:00:37.000 --> 1:00:40.080 nineteen eleven, a man walked into the Louver on a 1:00:40.120 --> 1:00:42.600 Monday while it was closed. The louver was protected by 1:00:42.600 --> 1:00:48.200 eleven mostly drunk lesionnaires, and walked into the Renaissance section, 1:00:48.680 --> 1:00:51.200 ripped the smallest painting he could off the wall, took 1:00:51.280 --> 1:00:54.280 it out of its frame, and then wrapped in a 1:00:54.440 --> 1:00:55.720 workman's bock and walked out. 1:00:55.760 --> 1:00:56.920 That was the Mona Lisa, wasn't it? 1:00:57.040 --> 1:00:57.520 Yeah? Yeah. 1:00:57.640 --> 1:01:00.200 Newspapers around the world spread images of it, and it's 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:02.439 the first time almost anybody had ever heard of it. It 1:01:02.440 --> 1:01:05.640 was not considered a great painting. Three years later it 1:01:05.680 --> 1:01:09.760 was returned once again. Newspapers around the world rejoiced. And 1:01:09.800 --> 1:01:11.480 it was a way too. It was the build up 1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:13.960 to World War One, so it was a way to 1:01:13.960 --> 1:01:16.960 make fun of the French government and it's incompetence. 1:01:16.320 --> 1:01:16.800 At the time. 1:01:17.680 --> 1:01:21.600 Now, human beings tend to like and trust the things 1:01:21.640 --> 1:01:26.720 that they're familiar with. And when you see you're the 1:01:26.760 --> 1:01:29.520 person who might be across the aisle picking up kids 1:01:29.720 --> 1:01:32.040 at school and your kids are in the same class, 1:01:32.080 --> 1:01:34.280 and you're at the same birthday parties, and you've developed 1:01:34.320 --> 1:01:39.040 familiarity and trust and all these other factors outside of 1:01:39.040 --> 1:01:43.800 that voting room, then suddenly you tend to treat people 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:46.400 with more humanity and have a greater ability to work 1:01:46.440 --> 1:01:50.760 with them. And so much like the Mona Lisa is 1:01:50.960 --> 1:01:53.640 not really a great painting if you actually speak to historians, 1:01:54.120 --> 1:01:58.280 the lack of that mere exposure and the trust that 1:01:58.360 --> 1:02:03.919 develops from interacting outside of these traditional negotiations, Yeah, we've 1:02:03.960 --> 1:02:05.040 lost a lot to that well. 1:02:05.080 --> 1:02:07.439 And we always bring up Alan Greenspan saying years ago 1:02:07.480 --> 1:02:10.240 about how when he was in Washington, people actually Democrats 1:02:10.280 --> 1:02:13.240 Republicans went to cocktail parties together, and so you know, 1:02:13.280 --> 1:02:15.200 you have a glass of wine with somebody and yeah, 1:02:15.520 --> 1:02:17.800 you know, you kind of relate. You're much more relatable, 1:02:18.480 --> 1:02:22.360 if you will, John, this was really really fun. Hopefully 1:02:22.360 --> 1:02:23.640 we can catch up again in the future. 1:02:23.720 --> 1:02:24.280 I'd be honored. 1:02:24.360 --> 1:02:25.280 Thank you for having me. 1:02:25.360 --> 1:02:28.680 Yeah, John Levy, he's a behavioral scientist New York Times 1:02:28.720 --> 1:02:31.480 bestselling author. His new book is Team Intelligence, How Brilliant 1:02:31.560 --> 1:02:33.000 Leaders unlock collective genius. 1:02:33.040 --> 1:02:34.400 Joining us right here in studio. 1:02:34.520 --> 1:02:36.120 Were you invited to one of those secret dinners? 1:02:36.120 --> 1:02:37.800 Ever, it's secret, so I can't tell. 1:02:37.920 --> 1:02:40.680 Okay, yeah, same, same. 1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:49.320 You are listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch 1:02:49.400 --> 1:02:52.640 us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. 1:02:52.760 --> 1:02:55.840 Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg 1:02:55.880 --> 1:02:59.160 Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 1:03:00.160 --> 1:03:02.160 From this small town on the central coast of California. 1:03:02.240 --> 1:03:03.360 Wait, you're from California. 1:03:03.560 --> 1:03:05.400 Yeah, it's known for a few things. We've got the 1:03:05.440 --> 1:03:08.200 last operating nuclear power plan in the state. You do, 1:03:08.360 --> 1:03:11.560 That's why I'm glowing. Yes, Hurst Castle is right there. 1:03:11.640 --> 1:03:12.680 Oh it is right. 1:03:12.840 --> 1:03:14.040 Yeah, I forgot about that. 1:03:14.120 --> 1:03:16.760 Also, there's this little smoothie shop. When I was growing up, 1:03:16.920 --> 1:03:20.800 it was called Juice Club, and on for special treats 1:03:20.800 --> 1:03:23.000 after school, I would get to go to Juice Club. 1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:25.760 My parents would take me there or a babysitter would 1:03:25.760 --> 1:03:26.160 take us there. 1:03:26.200 --> 1:03:27.000 It's like you loved it. 1:03:27.440 --> 1:03:29.280 Yeah, it was started by this guy who went to 1:03:29.320 --> 1:03:33.600 cal Poly and Juice Club is what John Bajuice was 1:03:34.200 --> 1:03:37.880 before they did a rebrand, did an IPO and became 1:03:37.920 --> 1:03:39.680 the company that it's known for now. 1:03:39.880 --> 1:03:40.360 I love that. 1:03:40.560 --> 1:03:42.919 So John Bajuice is it began? It began his Juice 1:03:42.920 --> 1:03:45.560 Club on you know, on Foothill. 1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:46.600 James D. 1:03:46.640 --> 1:03:48.840 White knows all about this. He's former CEO of John Bajuice. 1:03:48.880 --> 1:03:51.000 He led it from two thousand and eight to twenty sixteen. 1:03:51.000 --> 1:03:53.680 He's also the author of several books. His new book 1:03:53.720 --> 1:03:57.200 out this month, along with Krista White, called Culture Design 1:03:57.280 --> 1:04:00.680 How to Build a high performing, resilient organization with Purpose. 1:04:00.880 --> 1:04:03.160 He's also the chairman of the board of The Honest Company. 1:04:03.160 --> 1:04:06.080 He's co founder, chair and CEO of Culture Design Lab. 1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:09.080 He's a board member at the fast casual chain Kava. 1:04:09.160 --> 1:04:12.160 He joins U from Scottsdale, Arizona. Good to have you 1:04:12.160 --> 1:04:13.440 on the program, James, how are you. 1:04:14.120 --> 1:04:14.760 Sam and Carl? 1:04:14.760 --> 1:04:16.040 Thanks for hosting me. 1:04:17.200 --> 1:04:18.680 When you were CEO of John But did you ever 1:04:18.680 --> 1:04:21.280 get to go to that foothill location in San Luis Obispo. 1:04:22.640 --> 1:04:25.720 Absolutely the original that was the one. 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:27.480 Okay, that's amazing. 1:04:27.800 --> 1:04:29.800 And got to spend time with Kirk Paar and the 1:04:30.720 --> 1:04:33.439 fantastic founder who we lost a few years ago. 1:04:33.640 --> 1:04:34.760 Yeah, very tragic. 1:04:36.280 --> 1:04:39.600 Well, I want to talk a little bit about culture design, 1:04:39.680 --> 1:04:42.880 how to build a high performing, resilient organization with purpose. 1:04:42.920 --> 1:04:46.120 But first I just want to remind everybody about what 1:04:46.240 --> 1:04:49.160 John Bajuice was when you were leading it from two 1:04:49.160 --> 1:04:51.800 thousand and eight to twenty sixteen. It's now owned by 1:04:51.840 --> 1:04:54.760 a private equity firm, but it did have a life 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:58.680 as a publicly traded company. What was John Bajuice under 1:04:58.720 --> 1:04:59.280 your tenure? 1:05:00.800 --> 1:05:06.960 Well, I joined Jamba in December two thousand and eight 1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:13.160 and led the company through a turnaround in transformation. We're 1:05:13.160 --> 1:05:17.480 a public company. Market cap over my tenure increase by 1:05:17.480 --> 1:05:24.360 five hundred percent. We really reposition the company from a 1:05:24.400 --> 1:05:27.480 smoothie chain the more healthy lifestyle brand. But had a 1:05:27.480 --> 1:05:32.000 great run, you know, twenty eight quarters as a public company, CEO. 1:05:34.720 --> 1:05:40.840 So tell us about like going through your experiences and 1:05:41.000 --> 1:05:44.000 kind of what you learned in terms of running a company, 1:05:44.040 --> 1:05:47.919 building a company, going through different cycles. 1:05:48.320 --> 1:05:49.400 What that has taught you. 1:05:50.840 --> 1:05:52.960 I think for me, the place I always started, I 1:05:53.040 --> 1:05:55.080 just go back to really my first week on the 1:05:55.160 --> 1:05:59.640 job at Jamba is you start with the people, You 1:05:59.640 --> 1:06:02.680 start with the key stakeholders. And you know, for me, 1:06:02.720 --> 1:06:05.640 as I go back to that first week, we asked, 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:10.200 you know, four simple questions, what should the organization start doing, 1:06:10.200 --> 1:06:12.680 what should we stop doing? And what are the things 1:06:12.680 --> 1:06:15.080 that are working well that we should continue. And then 1:06:15.120 --> 1:06:18.000 the final bonus question is what advice would you have 1:06:18.080 --> 1:06:21.840 for me as CEO? And we really leverage that approach 1:06:22.320 --> 1:06:24.440 with really all of our stakeholder groups and use that 1:06:24.560 --> 1:06:27.800 to build a plan to turn around and transform the company. 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:28.400 Uh. 1:06:28.720 --> 1:06:32.280 But I always start with people first. The thesis of 1:06:32.320 --> 1:06:35.600 our book is companies have culture by designer default, So 1:06:35.760 --> 1:06:39.560 always be intentional in building a company's culture. 1:06:39.800 --> 1:06:42.920 So, so talk about who those key stakeholders are. Uh, 1:06:43.320 --> 1:06:45.680 And then I have this this follow up question that 1:06:46.000 --> 1:06:49.880 I think Carol will nod because she kind of knows 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:52.320 exactly where I'm going. When you when you started, when 1:06:52.360 --> 1:06:54.320 you start on a board or when you're you know, 1:06:54.360 --> 1:06:56.320 a decision maker at a company, who are the stakeholders 1:06:56.360 --> 1:06:57.760 you speak to understand the culture? 1:06:58.760 --> 1:07:03.080 Yeah, I always start with the employees because they actually 1:07:03.120 --> 1:07:08.360 know what actually needs to be done to you know, 1:07:08.400 --> 1:07:12.240 really re energize or strengthen the company. So I started 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:14.880 with the one hundred or so employees that we're in 1:07:14.880 --> 1:07:18.120 our support center that supported all our stores. Obviously the 1:07:18.160 --> 1:07:24.280 frontline workforce is a source of fantastic input the border directors, 1:07:24.360 --> 1:07:28.080 key suppliers, but also we talk to consumers as a 1:07:28.080 --> 1:07:34.080 part of that processes. We formulated the original Transformation Planet 1:07:34.160 --> 1:07:34.640 job book. 1:07:35.440 --> 1:07:40.640 So connect that with company performance because every you know 1:07:40.640 --> 1:07:43.000 in Zoom just reporter earnings for example, and when we 1:07:43.040 --> 1:07:46.360 look at any company that reports it's most recent quarter, 1:07:46.840 --> 1:07:49.320 we talk about numbers like the outlook. We talk about 1:07:49.480 --> 1:07:54.440 top line revenue, we talk about margins, we talk about outlooks, 1:07:54.560 --> 1:07:56.479 or we talk about what happened in the current quarter. 1:07:56.840 --> 1:07:59.360 What we don't talk about is the company's culture. We 1:07:59.400 --> 1:08:02.200 don't talk about how happy employees are or if they're 1:08:02.200 --> 1:08:06.800 not happy. We don't talk about customer satisfaction because investors 1:08:06.840 --> 1:08:10.720 don't necessarily trade on those things. How do you connect 1:08:10.760 --> 1:08:14.600 those non tangibles to the actual numbers that a public 1:08:14.600 --> 1:08:15.480 company reports. 1:08:16.600 --> 1:08:18.720 Yeah, the way I think about it is, and I've 1:08:18.760 --> 1:08:21.920 got a colleague amount of board Talagmoment says, the human 1:08:22.040 --> 1:08:26.280 capital drives the financial capital, and that directly relates to 1:08:28.320 --> 1:08:31.800 the people and relates to the company culture. We think 1:08:31.840 --> 1:08:36.000 about culture being the huge unlocked in this environment. And 1:08:36.000 --> 1:08:38.639 the reason we wrote the book Culture Design is we've 1:08:38.640 --> 1:08:42.760 felt like with the dramatic change over the course of 1:08:42.800 --> 1:08:47.160 the last five years, the thing that we've not talked 1:08:47.200 --> 1:08:49.479 about as much as we need to as we look 1:08:49.520 --> 1:08:53.639 at hybrid ork the influences of AI is the company 1:08:54.160 --> 1:08:58.000 culture and how that shift needs to happen. The best 1:08:58.000 --> 1:09:04.240 companies become changed savvy in terms of how they lead 1:09:04.320 --> 1:09:08.839 the companies moving forward. And the book has three pillars, 1:09:09.400 --> 1:09:11.640 Knowing what matters that's really about the context that the 1:09:11.640 --> 1:09:15.479 company operates in doing what matters? How do you operationalize culture? 1:09:15.520 --> 1:09:19.320 How does culture really live day to day inside an organization? 1:09:19.800 --> 1:09:22.920 And then anything in business that matters, you actually measure 1:09:22.960 --> 1:09:27.160 it in the You know, there are both hard and 1:09:27.200 --> 1:09:34.120 soft measurements. You know, employee engagement, there's pole surveys, there's 1:09:34.200 --> 1:09:38.680 net promoter scores, but there's employee net promoter scores that 1:09:39.000 --> 1:09:41.960 are one of the things that I find incredibly helpful. 1:09:41.960 --> 1:09:45.439 But the best leaders are thinking harder about this, whether 1:09:45.520 --> 1:09:49.439 they're in the boardroom or running companies today. 1:09:49.760 --> 1:09:51.560 Hey, James, one thing I want to ask you, and 1:09:52.600 --> 1:09:55.400 I'm just curious you wrote this with your daughter, Krista, 1:09:56.000 --> 1:09:59.320 and I was just looking at one thing in I 1:09:59.360 --> 1:10:02.760 think it's Paige and ninety six here and how she 1:10:03.800 --> 1:10:07.320 has kind of taught you that an effective leader actually 1:10:07.800 --> 1:10:10.000 shares a lot of their life journey is a lot 1:10:10.040 --> 1:10:14.040 more transparent with folks at work. And it's interesting, like 1:10:15.200 --> 1:10:17.640 I've often heard people like, your personal life is your 1:10:17.680 --> 1:10:20.000 personal life, don't bring it to the office, keep them separate, 1:10:20.080 --> 1:10:23.040 Like you just don't share stuff, and yet you know 1:10:23.560 --> 1:10:27.439 your lifeline is in there and like all the things 1:10:27.439 --> 1:10:29.240 that you've gone through in your life. And I'm just 1:10:29.479 --> 1:10:34.719 the importance of like leaders and leadership sharing their life 1:10:34.800 --> 1:10:36.920 journey with the folks that work with them. 1:10:38.439 --> 1:10:42.160 We think that empathy is really a core capability. And 1:10:42.200 --> 1:10:44.439 one of the things that I've learned in my work 1:10:44.479 --> 1:10:49.759 with my millennial daughter is, you know, kind of sharing 1:10:49.960 --> 1:10:54.800 more of myself really strengthens the ability for me to 1:10:54.840 --> 1:11:00.000 connect with leaders and people on a really different level. 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:03.559 So this is not really where I started as a leader, 1:11:03.600 --> 1:11:06.160 but have kind of learned this over the arc of 1:11:06.200 --> 1:11:10.840 a career, and it's really a force multiplier. When we 1:11:10.880 --> 1:11:13.599 get to know each other as human beings, we can 1:11:13.600 --> 1:11:15.960 find the things that are common and what I found 1:11:15.960 --> 1:11:19.000 from a leadership perspective is that allows you to unlock 1:11:19.040 --> 1:11:24.360 the full potential of the organization by being more human 1:11:24.400 --> 1:11:29.080 and kind of humanizing the leader. We interviewed one leader 1:11:29.120 --> 1:11:33.439 that describes his version of this as he provides new 1:11:33.479 --> 1:11:36.400 teams that he joined Sam Bright. He runs Google Play, 1:11:37.720 --> 1:11:40.280 he describes a user manual on how to best work 1:11:40.320 --> 1:11:42.519 with him as a leader, and he does some of 1:11:42.560 --> 1:11:46.360 the same kinds of things where he shares information on 1:11:46.439 --> 1:11:49.640 his family and background, which is really a shortcut to 1:11:49.680 --> 1:11:53.200 how we might work best together as colleagues. 1:11:54.080 --> 1:11:57.840 James, before I let you go, you've written this is 1:11:57.880 --> 1:11:59.680 not your first book that you've written along with your 1:11:59.760 --> 1:12:02.280 daughter Krista. Back in twenty twenty two, he wrote Anti 1:12:02.400 --> 1:12:05.679 Racist Leadership, How to Transform Corporate Culture in a Race 1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:08.560 conscious World. We spent a lot of time, Carol and 1:12:08.560 --> 1:12:11.280 I've been doing this together for five years, and over 1:12:11.320 --> 1:12:14.479 that period of time, the conversation around DEI has changed 1:12:14.560 --> 1:12:19.519 a lot. Most recently, the iteration is these companies getting 1:12:19.600 --> 1:12:22.000 rid of DEI programs, not talking about. 1:12:21.840 --> 1:12:24.160 It any not being a conversation around Yeah. 1:12:24.000 --> 1:12:24.479 I mean we're talking. 1:12:24.560 --> 1:12:26.320 We're doing a deep dive on target in just a 1:12:26.320 --> 1:12:29.280 few minutes and they've gone through their own issues with this. 1:12:29.560 --> 1:12:34.400 I'm just wondering what the state of how you view 1:12:34.479 --> 1:12:37.920 DEI and anti racism now in twenty twenty five, and 1:12:37.920 --> 1:12:42.360 how that's different among a C suite executives versus twenty 1:12:42.400 --> 1:12:42.800 twenty two. 1:12:44.000 --> 1:12:47.040 Yes, I think the conversation has definitely changed. But I 1:12:47.080 --> 1:12:49.880 think the best leaders, at least the best leaders that 1:12:49.920 --> 1:12:54.639 I work with, they've got a true north. They're very 1:12:54.640 --> 1:13:00.200 focused on their values and they know that if you 1:13:00.200 --> 1:13:04.360 put people first and you create an environment where all 1:13:04.400 --> 1:13:07.720 the humans get to do their best work, you're going 1:13:07.760 --> 1:13:12.280 to always win. And what I always advise companies and 1:13:12.320 --> 1:13:16.160 the leaders that I work with, the labeling of things 1:13:16.320 --> 1:13:20.200 I'm less concerned with. I'm more concerned with, you know, 1:13:20.240 --> 1:13:22.439 really the true north of the organization and how we 1:13:22.560 --> 1:13:25.760 focused on creating environments where everybody can do their very 1:13:25.760 --> 1:13:28.519 best work, and that starts with people and it starts 1:13:28.560 --> 1:13:31.040 with culture by design. 1:13:32.360 --> 1:13:34.280 I would assume that then that is like if you 1:13:34.360 --> 1:13:36.160 had to give one piece of advice to leaders that 1:13:36.200 --> 1:13:38.080 are out there and they get so much advice, But 1:13:38.160 --> 1:13:40.240 I'm just curious, is that what it would be or 1:13:40.280 --> 1:13:42.479 something else and just got about forty seconds here. 1:13:43.040 --> 1:13:46.280 It would be you know, really put the human beings, 1:13:46.280 --> 1:13:50.080 the people in your organization first and work hard to 1:13:50.200 --> 1:13:53.400 create and design environments where they can do their very 1:13:53.400 --> 1:13:57.120 best work and bring their full selves to the organization. 1:13:57.560 --> 1:13:59.400 And I think it will yield great benefits that will 1:14:00.200 --> 1:14:02.599 deliver high performance results. 1:14:02.920 --> 1:14:05.720 Well, very much appreciate it, James, Thank you so much. 1:14:05.800 --> 1:14:06.080 James D. 1:14:06.200 --> 1:14:09.559 White, former CEO of Jambajuice. He led the company from 1:14:09.560 --> 1:14:12.960 twenty eight to twenty sixteen. He is the co author 1:14:13.080 --> 1:14:14.120 of a book app. 1:14:14.040 --> 1:14:16.760 That he did with his daughter. Second book that he 1:14:16.800 --> 1:14:17.519 did with his daughter. 1:14:17.600 --> 1:14:20.200 This book though Culture Design, How to build a high performing, 1:14:20.520 --> 1:14:22.400 resilient organization with Purpose. 1:14:22.800 --> 1:14:25.360 And you can catch that book. It is out now. James, 1:14:25.360 --> 1:14:26.240 thank you so much. 1:14:27.120 --> 1:14:32.520 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, 1:14:32.600 --> 1:14:36.360 and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday 1:14:36.360 --> 1:14:40.400 afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, 1:14:40.439 --> 1:14:44.360 the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. 1:14:44.560 --> 1:14:47.520 You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube 1:14:47.560 --> 1:14:49.719 and always on the Bloomberg terminal