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Speaker 1: We originally released our interview with Lamon McIntyre on September

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Speaker 1: twenty fifth, twenty seventeen. Since then, a monumental shift has

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Speaker 1: occurred in the dynamic that resulted with Lamont behind bars

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Speaker 1: and the guy who deliberately framed him for a crime

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Speaker 1: he didn't commit living free as a detective for Kansas City, Kansas.

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Speaker 1: It's alleged that Roger Golupski was notorious in the black

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Speaker 1: community for using his authority to coerce women into sexual

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Speaker 1: acts in exchange for leniency, turning a blind eye, or

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Speaker 1: just for the courtesy of having him not frame them

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Speaker 1: or a family member. I'm cautiously optimistic about what appears

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Speaker 1: to be the beginning of some semblance of justice for

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Speaker 1: Gallupski and the good people of Kansas City. Gallupski has

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Speaker 1: now been formally charged in several cases. In September twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two for two counts of sexual assault the same

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Speaker 1: mom as we just mentioned, and then in November twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two, an indictment was revealed in which Glupski was

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Speaker 1: alleged to have conspired with a drug kingpin to run

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Speaker 1: a sex trafficking operation that routinely victimized miners. Kallupski allegedly

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Speaker 1: shielded the operation from investigation in exchange for cash and

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Speaker 1: sexual acts from his choice of girls. One of the

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Speaker 1: victims alleged that Glupski choked and raped her when she

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Speaker 1: was just sixteen years old. Klupski maintains his innocence, but

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Speaker 1: if these allegations are true, I hope he burns in

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Speaker 1: the very real hell in which he puts so many

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Speaker 1: innocent and at risk people. On April fifteenth, nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 1: Donnielle Quinn and Donald Ewing were fatally shot while sitting

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Speaker 1: at a powder blue Cadillac when a man dressed in

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Speaker 1: black pumped four shotgun rounds into the car, and one

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Speaker 1: alleged witness claimed to have recognized the shooter as an acquaintance,

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Speaker 1: quote unquote Laman Something. Another witness identified seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: Lamont McIntyre from a photo lineup. Both witnesses made positive

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Speaker 1: identifications in court, and despite a total lack of corroborating

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Speaker 1: physical evidence, this case appeared to be as open and

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Speaker 1: shut as they come, resulting in two consecutive life prison

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Speaker 1: terms for Lamont McIntyre. On this episode, we Speak with

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Speaker 1: Lamont's appellet attorney Cheryl Pilot, former FBI agent and police

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Speaker 1: corruption expert Al Jeneric, as well as Lamont himself from

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Speaker 1: behind bars to find out how this seemingly righteous prosecution

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Speaker 1: had actually been corrupted from the very start. This is

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Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flamm

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Speaker 1: Today's episode will make your blood boil and it will

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Speaker 1: blow your mind. So settle in because this is going

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Speaker 1: to be a crazy ride.

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Speaker 2: Guilty one word ceiling Lamont McIntyre's fate.

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Speaker 3: Lamont McIntyre, aged seventeen in nineteen ninety four, has so

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Speaker 3: far been imprisoned for twenty two years. Twenty two years ago,

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Speaker 3: two young men, twenty one year old Donielle Quinn and

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Speaker 3: his thirty four year old cousin Donald Ewing, were gunned

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Speaker 3: down in a horrible double homicide.

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Speaker 2: Six hours after the murder's police arrested McIntyre, but never

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Speaker 2: searched his house for evidence.

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Speaker 3: Moreover, it was a trial which prosecutors offered no physical

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Speaker 3: evidence tying McIntyre to the crime, no motive, no connection

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Speaker 3: between him and the victims, no weapon, no fingerprints, Nor

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Speaker 3: did Kansas City Kansas Belief even request search warrants to

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Speaker 3: find any of that material.

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Speaker 2: A retired officer who reviewed the case calls the investigation

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Speaker 2: grossly deficient.

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Speaker 3: Most notable is that the family of the victims for

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Speaker 3: twenty two years have steadfastly insisted that he is innocent.

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Speaker 3: Other witnesses also relatives of the victim, insisted as soon

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Speaker 3: as they saw McIntyre sitting at the defense table they

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Speaker 3: knew he was not the shooter. They told the prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: but were ignored. One family member has signed an affi David,

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Speaker 3: claiming that under pressure from police and the prosecutor, she

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Speaker 3: lied at McIntyre's trial.

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Speaker 2: For the first time, a jur is speaking publicly about

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Speaker 2: the case, Greg Lauber says that he now believes that

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Speaker 2: yan Dot County jury was wrong.

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Speaker 4: They didn't care about anything. They just had their man.

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Speaker 2: And it was enough for the twelve person jury. In deliberations,

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Speaker 2: Lauber says he and another juror were holdouts, but it

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Speaker 2: was late in the day and there was mounting pressure

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Speaker 2: from others who wanted a verdict.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I had an opportunity to, you know, do something

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Speaker 3: good on that jury, but I sure didn't do it.

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Speaker 5: I took a coward's way out.

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Speaker 3: It is the speedy investigation and prosecution of that crime

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Speaker 3: in this place that a team of exonerators now insist

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Speaker 3: was also the focus of a terrible injustice. Lamont McIntyre,

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Speaker 3: aged seventeen in nineteen ninety four, has so far been

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Speaker 3: imprisoned for tw twenty two years, convicted, and given two

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Speaker 3: consecutive life sentences for a crime they say you never committed.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm just gonna say I'm really happy that today

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Speaker 1: joining us to discuss the insane case of Lamont McIntyre.

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Speaker 1: We have with us Lamont's attorney, Cheryl Pilot, as well

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Speaker 1: as retired FBI special agent Al Jenerich. Cheryl and Al,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being here.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 6: We're glad to be here, happy to be.

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Speaker 1: Here, and we will be hearing later on in the

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Speaker 1: episode from Lamont, who will be calling in from president Kansas,

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Speaker 1: where he has been incarcerated for approximately twenty four years

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Speaker 1: now since he was a teenager for a crime that

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Speaker 1: he did not commit. Now, let's go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 1: On April fifteenth, nineteen ninety four, there are two men

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Speaker 1: sitting in a Cadillac in Kansas City, Kansas, when they

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Speaker 1: were approached by a man with a shotgun. These facts

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Speaker 1: are not in dispute right correct, And what we know

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Speaker 1: is that four shots were fired into the car, killing

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Speaker 1: the passenger Donielle Quinn instantly and the driver, Donald Ewing,

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Speaker 1: who died later in the hospital. And amazingly, within six hours,

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Speaker 1: they managed to find a guy who had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the crime, Lamont McIntyre, who was seventeen at

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Speaker 1: the time, and he was arrested and charged with two

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Speaker 1: counts of first degree murder in spite of a total

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Speaker 1: lack of any physical evidence connecting him to the crime.

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Speaker 1: How did this happen? Cheryl and Al jump in whenever

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Speaker 1: you want.

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Speaker 5: Lamont was arrested and prosecuted after police obtained three interviews

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Speaker 5: from eyewitnesses, one of them never testified. But the taped

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Speaker 5: interviews of these eyewitnesses in a very serious crime obviously

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Speaker 5: where someone can go to prison for the rest of

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Speaker 5: their life, amounted to a total of twenty taped minutes,

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Speaker 5: and one of the eyewitnesses was only interviewed for four minutes.

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Speaker 5: Is that an investigation?

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Speaker 4: What is that?

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Speaker 1: So? Al, You've done a lot of research and you

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Speaker 1: were in the FBI for quite a while, is that right.

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Speaker 6: I was in the FBI for twenty five years. I

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Speaker 6: was a special agent. I specialized in investigating police corruption.

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Speaker 6: I worked in Chicago very successfully, and then in Kansas City, Kansas.

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Speaker 5: Agent Generich was not involved with this murder case at

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Speaker 5: all when it happened. I knew mister Generich through other cases,

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Speaker 5: and after he retired a number of years. After he retired,

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Speaker 5: actually and I was working on trying to achieve Lamont's exoneration,

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Speaker 5: I approached him to talk to him about the Kansas City,

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Speaker 5: Kansas Police Department and things that I had uncovered in

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Speaker 5: my investigation. And it was at that point that Alan

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Speaker 5: I started talking about some of the things he had

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Speaker 5: learned while working for the FBI, and they matched up

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Speaker 5: with some of the things I had uncovered in my investigation.

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Speaker 5: And it was because of that that he became a

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Speaker 5: witness in this case that I hope to use at

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Speaker 5: our hearing.

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Speaker 1: So, prior to Lamont's arrest, can we talk about what

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Speaker 1: was happening with this particular cop, whose name was Roger Glubski.

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Speaker 6: Sometime around nineteen eighty eight or so, I was able

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Speaker 6: to open an investigation into police corruption in Kansas City, Kansas.

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Speaker 6: And as the investigation went on over time, over many years,

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Speaker 6: we developed maybe somewhere between twelve and fifteen police officers

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Speaker 6: who were titled subjects of the investigation. Some of it

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Speaker 6: involved civil rights like beating people up, stealing their shoes

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Speaker 6: when they were walking down the street because the officer

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Speaker 6: liked the shoes, or in the case of Kulupski, you know,

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Speaker 6: sexual extortion. But most of it involved corruption involving drugs,

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Speaker 6: mostly cocaine. And in the course of this investigation, just

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Speaker 6: by talking to people, which is what I'm pretty good at,

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Speaker 6: over time, you know, a number of people told us

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Speaker 6: about Gaulupski extorting sex from black women and he liked

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Speaker 6: black women. We never developed enough evidence on Gallupski to

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Speaker 6: prosecute him. That's the extent of my knowledge about Gallupski.

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Speaker 1: I always believed that that police were good, and the

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Speaker 1: police were on our side and they're there to protect

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Speaker 1: us all and so I always find these stories, even

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Speaker 1: as long as I've been working on this issue, and

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Speaker 1: I've got twenty five years now of experience, but I

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Speaker 1: always find these stories so just depressing and shocking, and

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Speaker 1: it flips everything upside down.

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Speaker 6: Well, like you, I was very naive until I went

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Speaker 6: to Chicago, and then I sought police corruption on the

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Speaker 6: mass of scale. But then when I got back to

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Speaker 6: Kansas City in eighty six and probably got involved in

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Speaker 6: Kansas City, Kansas in eighty eight, and I saw the

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Speaker 6: same activity there, it wasn't on the grand scale. You know.

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Speaker 6: It's that it's conducted in Chicago. It's basically police officers,

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Speaker 6: most of whom are white, picking on minorities, most of

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Speaker 6: whom are black, some of them are Hispanic. Because when

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Speaker 6: you're a drug dealer, you know, you can't go to

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Speaker 6: the police or the FBI and say, hey, these cops

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Speaker 6: are stealing my drugs, these cops are stealing my drug money.

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Speaker 6: You basically have to you have to suck it up.

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Speaker 6: So that's what they do in Chicago's what they do everywhere.

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Speaker 1: So Lamont his troubles really began when his mom was

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Speaker 1: at a car with I guess was her boyfriend at

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Speaker 1: the time. Shoyl Right Glubski approached the car and told

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Speaker 1: her to get out and threatened her with arrest or

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Speaker 1: the rest of her boyfriend unless she agreed to come

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Speaker 1: down to the police station. And then the problems really

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Speaker 1: began when she refused to become one of his girls,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. Right, I mean, obviously, she was in

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Speaker 1: a terrible situation where she's very vulnerable, not able to

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Speaker 1: defend herself from a cop who's willing to go to

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Speaker 1: almost any lengths to fulfill his desires. She had a

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Speaker 1: tremendous problem, and she decided that she wanted to maintain

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Speaker 1: her dignity, really right, And so what seems like happened

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Speaker 1: is that as a consequence, Golubski decided that he would

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Speaker 1: target and frame her son in something that is so

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Speaker 1: evil that makes me want to quit the human race.

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Speaker 5: There was an encounter that Lamon's mother had with the

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Speaker 5: detective some years earlier. I mean it was years actually

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Speaker 5: before the double homicide happened. And at the time of

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Speaker 5: the double homicide, my client was inexplicably dragged into the case.

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Speaker 5: One of the eyewitnesses told the police she thought the

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Speaker 5: shooter looked like a Lamont dating her niece. Police never

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Speaker 5: bothered to find out what Lamont that was. They don't

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Speaker 5: go ask the niece what Lamont that was. They simply

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Speaker 5: put another Lamont. And it's undisputed an entirely different. Lamont,

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Speaker 5: my client into the case and somehow obtain this identification.

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Speaker 5: What's interesting about the lineup, and I've never seen anything

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Speaker 5: like this before, is three of the five photos were

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Speaker 5: of young male members of the McIntyre family.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to say, well,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's one perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: It's not like somebody said there were three brothers that

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Speaker 1: were involved. It's one perpetrator, you know. And then the

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Speaker 1: justice system, we know has a tendency to chew people

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Speaker 1: up and spit them out when they are poor, particularly

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Speaker 1: if they're minorities and underrepresented. It's really it's not a

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Speaker 1: fair fight, is it.

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean, this whole thing was an impossible battle

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Speaker 5: for Lamont to begin with. I mean, first of all,

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Speaker 5: the investigation itself, I don't think really qualified is a

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Speaker 5: true investigation because so little was done. No evidence of

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Speaker 5: motive was ever uncovered. There was no physical evidence that

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Speaker 5: tied Lamont to the crime. There was not even any

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Speaker 5: evidence that he knew the two victims. There are backgrounds

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Speaker 5: of the two victims and who might have a motive

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Speaker 5: to harm them that was never investigated. There was an

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Speaker 5: eyewitness directly across the street who was never interviewed, whose

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Speaker 5: mother said, you know, she knows who the suspect is.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the failures and lapses and irregularities in this

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Speaker 5: case just go on and on. I mean, other than

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Speaker 5: the twenty minutes of taped interviews from the eyewitnesses, there

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Speaker 5: was very little else and the only evidence at trial

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Speaker 5: against Lamont were two eyewitnesses. One of them has admitted

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Speaker 5: that she lied, that she was coursed. The other eyewitness

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Speaker 5: seems frankly, very perplexed by her testimony, and it's very

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Speaker 5: clear that it's an eyewitness a misidentification based on manipulation.

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Speaker 1: And we know also that had this trial taken place

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Speaker 1: twenty years later or so, with everything that's known now

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Speaker 1: about the unreliability of eyewitness identification, there's a very good

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Speaker 1: chance that would have been discredited because there was no

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Speaker 1: other evidence connecting him to the crime.

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Speaker 5: You take a person who's traumatized, who has just witnessed

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Speaker 5: a really horrific event, and they can be pretty easy

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Speaker 5: to pressure or manipulate. And in fact, this witness provided

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Speaker 5: in a tape statement my client's last name a man.

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Speaker 5: She did not know and had never heard of, which

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Speaker 5: raises the very interesting question of who gave her the name.

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Speaker 5: Was disputed at trial that she did not know my client,

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Speaker 5: yet the fact that there was an original tape statement

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Speaker 5: where she provided his name never came out. That was

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Speaker 5: never admitted at trial. She also stated wrongly that my

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Speaker 5: client was the Lamont who had dated her niece. At

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Speaker 5: trial undisputed that that was not true. It was an

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Speaker 5: entirely different Lamont who was in fact identified by his

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Speaker 5: name to the jury, an entirely different person. So, I mean,

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Speaker 5: the whole thing is troubling beginning to end, really a

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Speaker 5: perfect storm of chaos and horror and misconduct, things being

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Speaker 5: done improperly.

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Speaker 1: So you have this cop and this department that is

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Speaker 1: so corrupt isn't even the right word, but that's engaged

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Speaker 1: in so many illegal activities. And isn't it ironic and

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Speaker 1: tragic that Lamont is in prison living in hell after

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Speaker 1: twenty four years and this cop who was from what

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Speaker 1: I've read, raping people, robbing people, dealing drugs, protecting drug dealers,

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Speaker 1: he's out. How is that? I mean, that must not

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Speaker 1: sit well with you, with your whole background either.

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Speaker 5: What I'm really hoping for. What our entire team is

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Speaker 5: hoping for, and what we have sought for a long time,

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Speaker 5: is a very full investigation into the activities of this detective.

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Speaker 5: There needs to be an investigation by people who have

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Speaker 5: the power to follow all the leads, develop information, compel

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Speaker 5: the testimony of witnesses, and obtain other evidence.

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Speaker 1: Let me turn it to you for a second, because

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Speaker 1: we have not had somebody with your background and experience

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Speaker 1: on the show before, and I would venture to say

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Speaker 1: that you had a very very difficult and dangerous job,

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Speaker 1: right I mean, investigating cops, particularly when you're investigating cops

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Speaker 1: who've got a lot to hide, makes you a very

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Speaker 1: unpopular person, I would think, so, looking back on it,

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Speaker 1: how did this manage to go on for so long

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Speaker 1: without somebody coming along and saying, you know, besides you, hey, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to tolerate this.

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Speaker 6: They don't give a shit. At the time we were

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Speaker 6: doing these investigations, the police chief of Kansas City, Kansas,

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Speaker 6: a guy named Tom Daly. He had previously been indicted

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Speaker 6: by the Federal Strike Force for extorting money at a

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Speaker 6: whorehouses along the Kaw River in Kansas. He was doing

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Speaker 6: that allegedly when it was a captain, he was acquitted

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Speaker 6: because it was a real weak case. But after being

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Speaker 6: acquitted for extortion, the city wound up eventually making him

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Speaker 6: the chief. Is that the actions, you know, over responsible

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Speaker 6: a city administration or a police department. So he had

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Speaker 6: the chief over here, Tom Dale, who had previously been

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Speaker 6: indicted by the Feds. He despised the federal government, he

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Speaker 6: hated the US Attorney's Office and the FBI, and he's

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Speaker 6: the chief. He was part of it.

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Speaker 1: So you have this guy Glubski who in that scenario

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Speaker 1: is operating basically with impunity, right because he knows his

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Speaker 1: chief doesn't give a shit, And with the chief having literally,

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Speaker 1: well for what it sounds like, gotten away with that

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Speaker 1: particular pattern of activity as well as I'm sure other

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Speaker 1: things that he was doing. The people underneath him are

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Speaker 1: probably thinking, hey, this is great, no one's going to

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Speaker 1: touch us, and they're right, and nobody did. So how

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Speaker 1: frustrated was that for you?

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Speaker 5: There?

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Speaker 1: You are really fighting an unwinnable war, right You're there

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Speaker 1: trying to protect the public from the police force with

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Speaker 1: a chief of police who not only doesn't give a fuck,

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Speaker 1: but doesn't want that he wants you. He probably wants

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Speaker 1: you to fuck out out of his hair, so we

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Speaker 1: could just you know, run the streets how he wants to.

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Speaker 6: Right when I started working over there, you had a person,

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Speaker 6: you know, some guy I knewed a lot of people

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Speaker 6: in the county jail, and they would say so and

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Speaker 6: so confronted me and stole my money, stole my drugs.

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Speaker 6: You go, what's the cops name? I don't know his name,

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Speaker 6: you know what's he looked like, Well, you know, he's

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Speaker 6: some white guy. Well you go to the police. The

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Speaker 6: police did not have photographs of their police officers, so

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Speaker 6: if a victim came in there alleging that so and

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Speaker 6: so officer robbed from me, extorted me, they didn't even

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Speaker 6: have photographs to show people so they could identify who

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Speaker 6: the police officer was. So good luck, you know, through

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Speaker 6: the US Attorney's office, through Julie Robinson, who was a

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Speaker 6: prosecutor at the time, we subpoenaed photographs of every sworn

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Speaker 6: officer in the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department. And there

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Speaker 6: was hell to pay for that. I was almost removed

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Speaker 6: from the investigation because of that.

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Speaker 5: You know, I think one of the problems is that

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Speaker 5: other law enforcement officers don't want to investigate law enforcement,

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Speaker 5: and as a general rule, I think they find it distasteful,

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Speaker 5: something they would rather avoid, and there is a tendency

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Speaker 5: to minimize misconduct. I found that really pretty shocking.

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Speaker 1: Not in light of everything else we're talking about, but

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Speaker 1: I could see how you would, and it really gets

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Speaker 1: easier and easier to see how these wrongful convictions are

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Speaker 1: so common. I mean, here, we have an interesting situation, right,

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Speaker 1: We're talking to Al who's in there with his badge,

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Speaker 1: working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and basically being

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Speaker 1: told go fuck himself. So what chance does a seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old black kid from the poorer side of town,

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Speaker 1: What chance does he have against this blue wall, this

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Speaker 1: blue monster that was out to get him. He had

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Speaker 1: no chance. So now fast forward to twenty four years later,

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Speaker 1: Lamont sets in a prison studying reading. By all accounts,

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Speaker 1: a model prisoner, somebody who maintains a positive outlook in

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Speaker 1: spite of this what can only be described as the

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Speaker 1: worst fate that can befall an individual, to be incarcerated

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Speaker 1: with something he didn't do for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: But now we have hope, right, I mean, he has

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Speaker 1: hope thanks to you and the years of work that

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Speaker 1: you've done in this case, in al and other brave

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Speaker 1: people who have devoted their time and in some cases

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Speaker 1: probably even risk their own personal safety to try to

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Speaker 1: get justice in this case. What does it look like now?

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Speaker 1: What happens next? Tell us what's going on.

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Speaker 5: We have a evidentiary hearing coming up in October, and

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Speaker 5: we intend to present somewhere between forty and fifty witnesses

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Speaker 5: who provide very powerful testimony on various aspects of the case.

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Speaker 5: There was almost nothing really to support the conviction to

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Speaker 5: begin with, nothing other than the testimony of the two eyewitnesses,

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Speaker 5: and I believe that has been thoroughly shredded at this

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Speaker 5: point through recantations and admissions and the result of other investigation.

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Speaker 5: And we are also focusing on the very troubling misconduct

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Speaker 5: in the case. It is intimately connected to how the

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Speaker 5: investigation was conducted, and we're going to bring all that

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Speaker 5: out and show how we believe this went wrong, and

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Speaker 5: we very much hope to be successful.

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Speaker 1: What's the data of the hearing October twelfth? October twelfth,

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Speaker 1: and is this in a federal court?

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Speaker 5: We are in Windott County District Court, which is a

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Speaker 5: state court. My client is litigating what's called a successive

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Speaker 5: petition under SIXTYSH fifteen oh seven, and you have essentially

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Speaker 5: a procedural barrier get over before you can get back

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Speaker 5: into court. But we do have this evidentiary hearing schedule

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Speaker 5: that we are very very excited about. One of the

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Speaker 5: most compelling things about the case we haven't mentioned this yet,

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Speaker 5: is that the families of both victims have always known

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Speaker 5: my client is innocent and are very much squarely supporting

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Speaker 5: the quest to free him. They know that they did

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Speaker 5: not get justice. Their families did not get justice.

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Speaker 1: And that's Cheryl. In your experience, it's not a common thing, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, most of the cases I've seen, even in

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Speaker 1: the face of what could be overwhelming evidence to the contrary,

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Speaker 1: the victims' family sometimes stick with you what they've been

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Speaker 1: told all along because they just can't They can't even

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Speaker 1: process the idea that they may have been lied to

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Speaker 1: and that the wrong person may have been serving time

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Speaker 1: for the murder of their loved one. So in this case,

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Speaker 1: this is a very unusual scenario, isn't it.

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Speaker 5: It is, And one of the eyewitnesses is related to

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Speaker 5: both of the victims, and she her family in the

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Speaker 5: family of the second victim, to whom she's a bit

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Speaker 5: more distantly related, have always told me that they have

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Speaker 5: known from the beginning that the authorities got the wrong man.

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Speaker 5: They have always known this. They've made periodic efforts to

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Speaker 5: correct this, to address this, to try and get some justice,

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Speaker 5: all without success.

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Speaker 1: And if there wasn't already enough to chew on, this

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Speaker 1: is the part that really just sets me off his court,

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Speaker 1: a pointed attorney. Gary Long was on supervised probation at

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Speaker 1: the time of the trial for failing to diligently handle

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Speaker 1: three prior cases. He was suspended from the bar a

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Speaker 1: couple years later for failure to adequately hnder a separate

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Speaker 1: criminal case. And he was this bar in nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 1: How is it even possible that, in a life or

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Speaker 1: death situation that you take somebody and you say, you

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Speaker 1: know what we're going to give you a lawyer who's

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Speaker 1: already messed up three times.

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Speaker 6: Well, when I said nobody gives a shit, do you

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Speaker 6: understand what I mean? Do you know that that you

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Speaker 6: know that Tara Morehead, do you know she's now a

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Speaker 6: federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Tara Moorehead was the prosecutor in this case.

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Speaker 1: Obviously didn't see anything wrong with her prosecuting a case

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Speaker 1: in which a young man's life was at stake in

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Speaker 1: front of a judge with whom she had carried on

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Speaker 1: an affair a few years earlier. I think most reasonable

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Speaker 1: people would agree that one or the other should have

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Speaker 1: been recused from this particular scenario because even if they

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Speaker 1: were saints, and obviously they weren't. Because she's also the

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Speaker 1: same woman, from what I've read, who threatened a witness

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Speaker 1: who tried to come forward with the truth with losing

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Speaker 1: custody of her own children. But yes, so now she's

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Speaker 1: moved up the ladder. Seems like all the bad guys

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Speaker 1: have won here. Al what the fuck?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 6: I think Morehead's currently married to a police officer. I

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Speaker 6: think there's some other prosecutors over in the federal US

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Speaker 6: Attorney's Office that are married to other police officers. So

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Speaker 6: you're not going to expect them to investigate police corruption,

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Speaker 6: are you.

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Speaker 1: Well? I guess that would make it tricky, wouldn't it.

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Speaker 6: They're not going to do it, and they don't.

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Speaker 5: I mean there is so much that could be investigated,

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Speaker 5: that ought to be investigated. And you know, I should

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Speaker 5: also point out that sexual misconduct among police officers is

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Speaker 5: not unusual in some departments. When you have poor and

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Speaker 5: vulnerable people encounter folks with ultimate authority over them, ultimate

434
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 5: authority in that particular moment, you know, those things can

435
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 5: happen all too easily, and they do, and they happen frequently.

436
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 6: You know, when I was an agent, I'm about six

437
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 6: foot four. I had a gun, a badge, and a

438
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 6: radio and everything. At nighttime, when I was on my

439
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 6: way home or on the weekends, I would not drive

440
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 6: through Kansas City, Kansas unless I was accompanied by another

441
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 6: FBI agent.

442
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: So because you thought they might have run you off

443
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: the road or something else.

444
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 6: They could do anything. They could pull me over and

445
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 6: not saying they don't know who I was, and they

446
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 6: could say I pulled a gun and they could shoot me.

447
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 6: So I have all that power and authority. What does

448
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 6: some little black kid on the street half.

449
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: I hope that in exposing the story of Lamont and

450
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: some of the things that you've shared out that people,

451
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: you know, get their backs up and get angry and

452
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: get involved. These are just people They're just regular people

453
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: and they're being so terribly abused and victimized by people

454
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: who are supposed to protect them. I don't it makes

455
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: me sick.

456
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 5: I just say that the fear and the terror that

457
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 5: some of the citizens experience cannot be overstated. I mean,

458
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 5: you have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

459
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 5: as I said in that moment, unchecked authority, there's enormous

460
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 5: fear of the police and enormous, sometimes unmovable resistance to

461
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 5: getting involved in anything that has to do with the

462
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 5: criminal justice system. I've spent some years, honestly, just earning

463
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 5: the trust of some people in the community so that

464
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 5: they will sit down and speak with me so that

465
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 5: we can investigate the case. Nobody wants anything to do

466
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 5: with a case you say, courthouse people walk the other way.

467
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 5: They don't want anything to do with that. And ultimately

468
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 5: we have been successful in securing some very good witnesses

469
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 5: because they did want to help someone they viewed as innocent.

470
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 5: And you know, I should point out here that all

471
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 5: of the street talk we have ever heard in the

472
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 5: community is that Lamon is innocent, the guy who got

473
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 5: wrongfully convicted. It's like everyone knows the whole community knows.

474
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 5: The victim's family leans now. Everyone knows Lamont did not

475
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 5: do this. Everyone knows.

476
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 7: You have a prepaid call from the font an Innate

477
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 7: at Kansas Department of Corrections Lancing Correctional Facility. To accept

478
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 7: this call, press or say five to refuse. This call

479
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 7: will be recorded and subject to monitoring. At any time.

480
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 7: You may begin speaking.

481
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: Now, Lamont, welcome to the show.

482
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 4: Thank you.

483
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: So, Lamont. I want to go back to the beginning,

484
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: when you grew up and how this all started. I've

485
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: seen photos of you with your family. Looked like you

486
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: had not an easy but a happy childhood. Is that fair?

487
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: Can you just describe what it was like. I've heard

488
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: you talk about Christmas and stuff.

489
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 4: Uh. Yeah, we was tight knit.

490
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 5: You know.

491
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 4: It was like my mother was just an only parent

492
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 4: in the house and we was close, me and my siblings,

493
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 4: and we did everything together. We stayed in one house,

494
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 4: you know, we took care of each other. So glowing

495
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 4: up of me was my family was a big game.

496
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 4: We didn't really fight about a lot of stuff. You know.

497
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 4: It was me and my three brothers and my sister,

498
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 4: my oldest sister. My mother worked a lot, so my

499
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 4: sister kind of watched after us a little bit, some

500
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 4: other family members. I used to go to my family

501
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 4: member's house, my uncle's and be around them. Our mother

502
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 4: was at work. I kind of still stayed around family

503
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 4: outside my home.

504
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: So real family oriented and where you grew up. You

505
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: had no idea at this time that the police force

506
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: was really as corrupt as anyone could possibly imagine until

507
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: this terrible incident occurred. And I want to go back

508
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: to that. What happened. You were a seen year old

509
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: kid going along with your life, trying to make it

510
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: in a difficult place, and then one day out of

511
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: the blue, you get arrested and don't even know what's

512
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: going on or what happened.

513
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 4: Uh, that's exactly what happened. And I was it was

514
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 4: a typical day. It was like a Friday, typical day.

515
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 4: I was enrolled in a downity college program where there's

516
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: alternate to school where they would help you get your

517
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 4: high school and phone, and then they gets you in college.

518
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 4: So it was like a little degree program I was

519
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 4: a part of. And it was just a Friday. I

520
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 4: get a car phone call saying the police is over

521
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 4: at my grandmother's house looking for me. Call my mother.

522
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 4: We go to the police station and they start talking

523
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 4: about two murders and I had no answers for him

524
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 4: because I didn't know what they were saying or what

525
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 4: they were talking about. So from that moment I was arrested, charged,

526
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 4: and eventually convicted of two murders.

527
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: Then I had another about and we know now that

528
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: they were deliberately targeting you because of this particular police

529
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: officer who was up to all kinds of criminal activity himself.

530
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: And that's the irony of this is that he belongs

531
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: in jail, and I'm hoping that by the end of

532
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: this that's exactly what's going to happen. But the idea

533
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: that this system, this so called justice system, had made

534
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: a decision that you were going to be their guy.

535
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: There was this double murder, right, two guys sitting in

536
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: a car. They were involved in drug activity, They were dealers.

537
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: We now know also that one of them had been

538
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: beaten by the guys he was working for in the

539
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: drug business.

540
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 8: Right.

541
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: He was working as a doorman in a crack then,

542
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: and he had feared for his life, and in fact,

543
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: he had good reason to, because I guess he had

544
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: from what I've learned he had been stealing from them,

545
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: so that every reason to know that this was a

546
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: drug hit, and you weren't involved in that game or

547
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: that business. Did you know these guys?

548
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 4: I didn't know the witnesses, I didn't know the victims.

549
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 4: I would't connected to it at all. That's why so

550
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 4: it so halted me to understand how something like that

551
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 4: could happen, because and I was bored about everything. I

552
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 4: tried to hide nothing because I knew what they was

553
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 4: talking about at that time. I had nothing to do

554
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 4: with it, and no one involved. I don't know what

555
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 4: the police officer's motive was to plan it on me

556
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 4: or I still don't know.

557
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 8: To this day what happened.

558
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: Well, it does seem like now with everything we've learned

559
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: that the officer involved, the first one who arrived on

560
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: the scene was an officer named Golubski. It's a white

561
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: guy who had a proclivity for women of color and

562
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: when he didn't get his way, he would exact revenge.

563
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: And so what it seems like is that in this

564
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: particular case, he targeted you because because your mom wasn't

565
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: having any part of that. And that's what makes this

566
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: particularly sinister. And sick, you end up going to trial,

567
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: and I find it interesting, among all the other things

568
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 1: in your case, that they offered you a plea bargain

569
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: right and you didn't take it.

570
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 4: I went in the rest of the plea bargan. I

571
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 4: can't understand how was I sitting in that situation, and

572
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 4: I didn't know nothing about the PM itself, So plea

573
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 4: barg goes far from my mom.

574
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 8: I was thinking about a plea bargain.

575
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: And why I find that and why I brought that

576
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: up Lamont, And I've seen the mugshot picture of you,

577
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: and it really hurt my heart because I could see

578
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: in your face just how confused you were and scared

579
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: of a situation that you couldn't possibly imagine what's happening

580
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: at that time. I also would think that if you

581
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: were guilty and they're offering you a deal and you

582
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: know your chances of winning in the court are going

583
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: to be low because they have all these cops and

584
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: everybody else that's going to testify, I guess you would

585
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: have taken the plea barg and anybody with the right

586
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: mind would take a plea bargain. You're not crazy, are you.

587
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,439
Speaker 1: I'm not right, you don't sound you don't sound crazy

588
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: at all. So in the situations like this, I mean,

589
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: we have in this country over ninety percent of cases

590
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: end up in plea bargains. So had you been guilty,

591
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: that would have been a very logical thing to do.

592
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 1: But as an innocent person and probably somebody who still

593
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: trusted in the system, you went forward with your right

594
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: to a trial, and you were represented by a guy

595
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: who they knew your court appointed lawyer. They knew this

596
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: guy was incompetent because he had already been disciplined for

597
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: three previous cases that he had completely botched. It almost

598
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: sounds like they did it on purpose. They assigned a

599
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: guy who didn't go and interview witnesses, who didn't really

600
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: didn't do anything he was supposed to do. And what

601
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: was that like? Were you aware at that time that

602
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: this guy wasn't I mean, I don't even know if

603
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: it was really on your side, but I mean, as

604
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: you're watching these proceedings, what were you thinking.

605
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 4: He presented himself like a lawyer, He presented itself like

606
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 4: a person is there on my behalf to take care

607
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 4: of this business. And he seeing real professional at first,

608
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 4: So I didn't know what to expect because I've never

609
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 4: been in that situation before anyway, So his first impression

610
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 4: was for me. It was a good impression because I

611
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 4: didn't know what my lawyer was supposed to do, or

612
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 4: I was so ignorant to the law and how things worked.

613
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 4: I just believed in the justice system at that time,

614
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 4: I really did. I thought there was no possible way,

615
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 4: being an innocent person or person that has nothing to

616
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 4: do with that crime, that I would be found guilty.

617
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 4: So I didn't really pay too much attention to the

618
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 4: credibility of this lawyer. It didn't down on me that

619
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 4: I would be found guilty of the crime that I

620
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 4: had nothing to do with, so I didn't really think

621
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 4: about it in those times. I was just thinking, you

622
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 4: can give me any lawyer, anybody from anywhere, and it'd

623
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 4: be okay because once they realized they had the wrong

624
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 4: person to get ironed out in trial. That's what I

625
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 4: was thinking. But I didn't plan all. I didn't think

626
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 4: that people would get on the stand and lie they

627
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 4: was going fabricate, and I didn't think that was gonna happen.

628
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 4: I had no idea that they had already made up

629
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 4: in their mind that I was going to be escaped

630
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 4: goal for this particular crime, so being needed at all,

631
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 4: have they worked in the justice system. I believe in

632
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 4: the justice system at that time, I really did.

633
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: I think all of us do. When we're kids, especially

634
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: brought up in a good home like you were. You

635
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: brought up to believe that people are good and that

636
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: the system is going to work for you. And then

637
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: you had a lawyer who, had he been competent, I

638
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: still think would have won your case in spite of

639
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: all this, because of the simple fact that it was

640
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: an easy case. The witnesses were not credible at all.

641
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: We now know that they also withheld exculpatory evidence. So

642
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: you really didn't have a fair chance, especially not with

643
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: a lawyer who was incompetent. And ultimately, let's not forget

644
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: that this particular lawyer was disbarred not too long after

645
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: your trial. And again for the listeners out there, think

646
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: about that this is a guy who had been disciplined

647
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: in new cases prior to Lamont's and then ultimately gets

648
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: disbarred when the extent of his gross incompetence is brought

649
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court of Kansas. The attention to the

650
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: Supreme court, and then he voluntarily gave up his license

651
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: to practice law. And that wasn't the end of the nightmare.

652
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: We now know too that your appellate lawyer was disbarred.

653
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't even make this stuff up. So

654
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: what happened? Like now, you're in the courtroom, the jury

655
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: goes out, the arguments have been made. You saw these

656
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: witnesses get up and lie. You saw these police officers

657
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: get up and lie. Your defense made whatever arguments they made.

658
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: Did you believe that they would come back and declare

659
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: you innocent?

660
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 8: I did.

661
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 4: I did every fire of my being. I did. I

662
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 4: just didn't know that this is how the system work.

663
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 4: They've found me guilty based false evidence for kind of

664
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 4: evidence that was presented by a certain she coun attorney.

665
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 4: They heard stuff about me that wasn't even about Lama Mcatize,

666
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 4: and she just kind of made stuff up. They told

667
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 4: his story and the jury believed it. But at the

668
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 4: time before they came back it was guilty verdict. I

669
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 4: still didn't think I'll be found guilty because the whole

670
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 4: time I'm sitting there and the whole time I'm going

671
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 4: through the process of getting too trial, I still had

672
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 4: no knowledge of the actual crimes. So I'm thinking, with

673
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 4: my young mind being naive, that there's no way a

674
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 4: jury can find me guilty when I'm really not guilty,

675
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 4: when I had nothing to do with it. I'm not

676
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 4: tied to it at all. The witnesses, the victims, I'm.

677
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 8: Not tied to it.

678
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 4: I wasn't in the area when it happened. When they

679
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 4: came in, I noticed that no jury's no one looked

680
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 4: me in my face, no one looked looked up. Everyone

681
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 4: came in looking down at the floor. So I kind

682
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 4: of had an eerie feeling, but I still had hope

683
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 4: that it would work out in the right way. So

684
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 4: when they read the verdict and they said guilty, it's

685
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 4: like I seen my whole life flash before me and

686
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 4: I and for that moment, I posed, and I was

687
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 4: sitting there, and I stood up, and I just remember

688
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 4: saying something. I was screaming something, you know, to the

689
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 4: effects of I'm not guilty, and you got the wrong

690
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 4: person whatever. And I felt someone hold me or grab

691
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 4: me from behind, and I was in shot, so I

692
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 4: didn't really I was like a lost moment, but I

693
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 4: turned around. I see my mother hold me, screaming crying like,

694
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 4: don't take my baby away from me, don't take my baby.

695
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 4: And I'm looking at her and I realized that this

696
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 4: is a serious situation. Now I'm but it still didn't

697
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 4: feel real. It was my life in my situation, but

698
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 4: it didn't feel like my life or my situation. I

699
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 4: felt like I was outside of myself looking at this

700
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 4: event happened and I couldn't stop it. So I was

701
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 4: in shot and that shot lasted for a few years

702
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 4: after that, I was in shot.

703
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: So now now you're convicted of a double murder and

704
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 1: sentence to life in prison. Where did they take you to.

705
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 4: The process is like from the time you get convicted

706
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 4: and stay in the county for about two months, then

707
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 4: you go to citizen now the cenizen in Juanna County.

708
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 4: It gave me two life sentences to ront consecutive. Then

709
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 4: after that they send me to a process and center

710
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 4: which we kind of ark you where they see you

711
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 4: to determine what classification.

712
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 8: You would be, what custody you will be in. I

713
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 8: was considered max custody.

714
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 4: So from there they send me to prison. I was

715
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 4: in Hutson that's a that's a prison in Kansas. They

716
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 4: kind glad they're in school. One of those tough prisons,

717
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 4: you know with people. You know, it's a prison. It's

718
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 4: like the work idea you have a prison?

719
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 7: Is that more?

720
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 8: It's it's this dark, it's negative, it's pension field, it's hopelessness.

721
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 4: It's a world that is all.

722
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: As a seventeen year old, Did you have plans? Did

723
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: you have a career mind? What was the outlook for

724
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: the future where we're still just trying to figure it out.

725
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, it was things I wanted to do.

726
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 4: It was just I was being guiding the line, and

727
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 4: I was just in a place where everybody around me

728
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 4: was either dying or going to jail or I was

729
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 4: just in the kind of environment. It didn't produce a

730
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 4: lot of hope or didn't have I didn't have a

731
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 4: lot of people to look up to or emulate, nothing

732
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 4: like that. But I did enjoy taking care of my family.

733
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 4: So my life was just basically about trying to take

734
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 4: care of my family the best way I knew how,

735
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 4: or to look out for my loved ones. You know,

736
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 4: I had skills and things I could do, Like I

737
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: was a barber. I was cut here since I was twelve,

738
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 4: or you know, I was a comedian. You know, I

739
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 4: had these in the back of my mind. I wanted

740
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 4: to be a comedian. I had things I wanted to do.

741
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 4: I just didn't know how to get to where I

742
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 4: wanted to be. But I still didn't think that my

743
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 4: life was just of being in prison or going to

744
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 4: jail or being in this kind of situation.

745
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: What is a typical day like for you on the inside?

746
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 1: How do you get through it? What's the schedule, typical day?

747
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 4: Typical day is I'll re readjusted. It's like from one

748
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 4: day to the next is finding a way to get

749
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 4: by for one day, learn something from my days, and

750
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 4: then I just try to it just sucks. I gotta

751
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 4: repeat it. Like if I have a bad day or

752
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 4: I'm frustrated for one day, I go to sleep, wake

753
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 4: up to repeat this day again. So I try to

754
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 4: find the best I can or get the best I

755
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 4: can out of a day, because waking up and repeat

756
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 4: it is the anxiety. That's why all that the worst

757
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 4: stuff is knowing that for the last twenty three years

758
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 4: and two hundred some months and eleven hundred weeks and

759
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 4: eight thousand days, it's the same thing. It never changes.

760
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 4: So I devote my time to reading and studying and write.

761
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 4: I write music and write poetry. I try to keep

762
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 4: my mind free as possible. I try to stay out

763
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 4: of prison mentally. I try not to. I'm not into

764
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 4: prison politics. I'm not in prison mentally, but I'm here.

765
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: I have to be in my body here, but I

766
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 4: try to keep my mind far from as place as

767
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 4: I can. So it's just a bunch of moments of

768
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 4: readjusted every day. And I have a lot of love

769
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 4: people that love me and care about me, so I

770
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 4: focused on that. But it's bad. It used to be

771
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 4: a lot worse than it is now. I'm starting to

772
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 4: see I'm coming alive now because I can see a

773
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 4: light and then it just dark toddled. I've been there

774
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 4: for so long. Something better now, But yeah, it wasn't

775
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 4: so good before. It's better now. But it was always

776
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 4: sad to wake up. I had to repeat this same

777
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 4: cycle over and over again. That stuff is another driving

778
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 4: person crazy. There's a lot of moments while I'm feeling

779
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 4: like it was the point, you know, to keep going

780
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 4: to wake up every day, that I have to deal

781
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 4: with the exact same nightmare. You trying to stay something

782
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 4: the night before. But I had my mother, like she

783
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 4: never gave up on me from day one. Like when

784
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 4: the worst moments of my life, you know, I'm feeling

785
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 4: like I just couldn't do it no more, so like

786
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 4: I couldn't take another step, she would show up and

787
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 4: when she would grab me and hold me and look

788
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 4: me my face, this is not my life. I'm passing through.

789
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 4: This is not my destination. And so I had a

790
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 4: lot of support my family, and and I gave my

791
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 4: life to God and I pray a lot, I meditated

792
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 4: a lot. So initially I was kind of in this

793
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 4: dark place where I was just so hurt and sad

794
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 4: and depressed. And so I kept people kept coming to

795
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 4: my life. That was like beacons of light and hope

796
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 4: for me and I and I and I thank God

797
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: for all those people came into my life and supported me.

798
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 4: They sure that, uh, I always had something to look

799
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 4: forward to, because this is a dark place. It's a

800
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 4: dark situation where if you don't have enough support. For me,

801
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 4: it was just support I had. Family is important. Then

802
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 4: years later Chryl and she turning on ministries and anything projects.

803
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 4: They kept start coming into my life and they breathed,

804
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 4: they breed life into me. It's like my second win.

805
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 4: And I'm grateful for those people. Everybody was poor me

806
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 4: and everybody who put forth effort go out every day

807
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 4: and do something that helped me get my life back.

808
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 4: I'm very grateful for those people.

809
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: If you're even allow yourself, if you allow your mind

810
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: to go there, what are you dreaming about when you

811
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: get out, Because I'm convinced you are going to come

812
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: home and I'm going to be there fighting right alongside

813
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: with everybody else. What's the first thing you want to do,

814
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 1: and then how do you see the future?

815
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 4: First day I'm gonna do with eat something. That's what

816
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 4: I fantasized about. Mostly, I want to eat something that

817
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 4: there From there, I want to have some type of

818
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 4: impact or sect on young people making poor decisions that

819
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 4: was eventually land them in a situation like this, you know.

820
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 4: So I want to just raise any kind of awareness

821
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 4: I can about decision making, because, you know, had I

822
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 4: been taught how to make better decisions myself, I think

823
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 4: even though I was eiger to the law and this

824
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 4: is something that had nothing to do with me, and

825
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 4: I'm still could have been making better desistons for myself

826
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 4: before this stuff even came about. So I don't want

827
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 4: to be able to be there for young people as

828
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 4: much as I can. So I can I can help

829
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,479
Speaker 4: them understand that even though you don't do something wrong,

830
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 4: even though you don't commit a crime, you can be

831
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 4: you still got to be accountable, and you still got

832
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 4: to be a momful of the segments you're out there

833
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 4: floating around and you can easily be put in a

834
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 4: situation like that and if you're not being productive and

835
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 4: doing something that's productive out there in life. So I

836
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 4: don't want to be able to reach the young people

837
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 4: as much as I can. And now that this that'd

838
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 4: be young just anybody that doesn't want to be able

839
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 4: to share my experience and hopefully it will help out

840
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 4: in any kind of way.

841
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 1: I'm sure that you will do that, and then you're

842
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: going to have a very positive impact on a lot

843
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 1: of people because you have a very rare combination of

844
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 1: intelligence and manner that is so positive and strong but

845
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: still gentle that I believe that you will be able

846
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: to affect a lot of a lot of young people,

847
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to watching you do that. There's

848
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: one other thing I wanted to raise. I'm always amazed

849
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: when I speak to someone in your situation, and especially

850
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,760
Speaker 1: so with you, that you don't seem to be bitter

851
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: after everything that's happened. And I know you talked about

852
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: your faith and family and the strength that you get

853
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: from them, But how is it possible that someone can

854
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: go through this most unimaginable nightmare still be in it,

855
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: and yet be as positive and strong as you are now?

856
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 8: Well?

857
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 4: I had my moments with anger, but it was always

858
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 4: like taking poison helping someone else die from it. I

859
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 4: was the only one to fact about me being angry.

860
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 4: No one else seemed to notice a payettition to me

861
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 4: being angry, So I was just earn experience like being

862
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 4: angry doesn't help me. So I just wanted to help

863
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 4: myself because I knew, I always knew I was going

864
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 4: to be here forever. I know that basically the truth

865
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 4: was surface and I would have a life outside of it.

866
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 4: So I devoted a lot of time and energy towards

867
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 4: helping myself and not hurt myself. So being angry was

868
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 4: something that was a hindrance to me, not a benefit.

869
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 4: So I try to say positive because this place is

870
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 4: you got to keep up with yourself and take care

871
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 4: of yourself. And anger and stress and all those things

872
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 4: is just shorten your lifespan. And I got life to live,

873
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 4: so I just choose. I choose to be positive. I

874
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 4: choose to not be angry and allow anger to kill me.

875
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 4: I don't want to die in this place, and I

876
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 4: don't want to have a short life, So I stick

877
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 4: fine to what I believe in. And I believe in

878
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 4: my faith, and I believe in meditation, I believe in exercise.

879
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 4: I believe in taking care of my mom, body and soul,

880
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 4: and that's what I'll devote my time to.

881
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: Wow, all I can do is tell you that you

882
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 1: have you have all my respect and support, and I

883
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,240
Speaker 1: have a saying you know, I've seen too many miracles

884
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: to stop believing in miracles. So I'm excited to watch

885
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: you be the next one or one of the next ones,

886
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 1: and we'll never stop fighting for you and for other

887
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: people in your situation. I'm looking forward to a positive

888
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: outcome and to getting to know you on the outside

889
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: my mind. I'm just going to turn it over to

890
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: you and say it's your microphone. What do you want

891
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: to share with the audience.

892
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 4: Well, these kind of cases having well more than they should,

893
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 4: you know. So it's like a I always see on

894
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 4: TV or Dayline twenty twenty. We see and it said,

895
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 4: man so many years in prison. Then you get exonerated

896
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 4: and you see this happen time and time again. But

897
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 4: what you never ever see or hear or hear about

898
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 4: is how much that stuff impact the affected the families

899
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 4: of those people. Like I had a close knit family.

900
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 4: We was close and it was a thing. This is

901
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 4: not just like me being affected by it invented, happened

902
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 4: in my life. It hurts me to see how much

903
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 4: how much it affected not only me but my family.

904
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 4: And it's difficult because if a man had to go

905
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 4: through a certain thing by himself, that's his life, that's

906
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 4: his path and life he got to go through that.

907
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 4: I had to do what I had to do, no

908
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 4: matter what. But when you see somebody you care about

909
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 4: being affected by what you have to do or what

910
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 4: you have to endure, it's a different kind of feeling.

911
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 4: And it's like people don't really pay attentions that I

912
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 4: know about that, Like when district attorneys of being dishonest

913
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 4: when they're trying to get convictions and all that. I

914
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 4: don't think they take that consideration how many people they

915
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 4: are affected by just not going by the law, just

916
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 4: not being truthful about certain things. It's not just me,

917
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 4: whatever issue, personal issue they may add about with me.

918
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 4: My family is affected by that. My brothers, my brother's

919
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 4: kids when all this happened, and they feel like they

920
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 4: lost a mother because my mother devoted so much time

921
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 4: for trying to get me back out of the system

922
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 4: that they felt like they was neglected. So they were

923
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 4: affected by that. My older sister was affected, my brother

924
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 4: was affected. I mean, everybody was affected.

925
00:51:58,120 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 7: One minute remaining.

926
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 4: When you try to hold onto something good, even when

927
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 4: you try to get something good this kind of situation,

928
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,359
Speaker 4: it's still nothing good comes from it. It's just always bad.

929
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 4: It's always negative, it's always a challenge, it's always hurdles,

930
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 4: it's always something. But for the person that's in the

931
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 4: middle of it, that's just my experience. But on the

932
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,839
Speaker 4: outside of it, that's something that people don't ever get

933
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 4: a chance to see. That's just a harsh or harsh

934
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 4: reality for the person to live based on someone else

935
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 4: being incompetent, when all this stuff basically could have been

936
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 4: avoided by someone that's doing their job. But the job

937
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 4: people was employed them to do, you know, So I

938
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 4: think people should understand that and know that it's a

939
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 4: lot of people to be affected by something like that.

940
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 4: I think a lot of tastes should be brought to

941
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 4: this moment and this kind of situation, so a lot

942
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 4: of people can if you ever find another person in

943
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 4: that situation, it can be more mindful of that trying

944
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:56,919
Speaker 4: to help in a different kind of way if they could,

945
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 4: because it's not just about me, it's about everybody here.

946
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 4: Bobby Hill.

947
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: On October thirteen, twenty seventeen, Wayan Dot County District Attorney

948
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 1: Mark dupri moved to vacate the conviction and dismissed all

949
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: charges against Lamont. Hours later, Lamont McIntyre walked out of

950
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,439
Speaker 1: the courthouse a freeman for the first time in over

951
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: twenty three years. Since then, Lamont has won his wroeful

952
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: conviction civil suit, as well as a civil suit against

953
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 1: a number of officers, including Roger Glubski. The suit included

954
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: the initials of at least seventy three other women that

955
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: Gallupski allegedly victimized. After thirty years in the uniform of

956
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: the Kansas City, Kansas Police Department. Roger Glupski went to

957
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 1: work for nearby Edwardsville PD in twenty ten. Since Lamont's exoneration,

958
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: Glupski faces three criminal indictments, and from what I understand,

959
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: there are more on the way. It's also been rumored

960
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: that Glubski may have been an active participant in at

961
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: least a dozen murders. And while there might be an

962
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: attempt to cut him down as only one bad apple,

963
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: we must remember as a director of the Midwest Innocence Project,

964
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 1: Tricia Bushnell put it, quote, there's an entire system that

965
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: not only permitted him to do it, but supported him

966
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: and promoted him end quote. Goolupski had been made captain

967
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: and his former partner was chief of police until twenty nineteen.

968
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

969
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis,

970
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

971
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

972
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

973
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

974
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good on

975
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: all three platforms. You can also follow me on both

976
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason plog Ronful Conviction is

977
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: the production of Java for Good podcasts and association with

978
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one