1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from house 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. Hello, welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: Sarah Dowdy and I'm joined by another special guest today. 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: This time it is Holly Fry, my fellow editor, and 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: you host your own podcast to you called pop Stuff, 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: and I'm get to be lucky and hang out with 7 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: you today. Yeah. So normally you're talking about TV and 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: movies and other pop culture kind of stuff, but Holly 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: is also a talented seamstress. You design clothes. You so 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: everything from wedding dresses to dragon con costumes to running 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: where that's appropriate for Disney Marathon. Fashion is a passion 12 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: for you. It is, indeed, it is indeed in historical 13 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: clothing in particular is very near and dear to my heart. 14 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: And I really like historical loathing too, So I was 15 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 1: really psyched when when I asked Holly if she wanted 16 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: to be on the show, and the first thing you 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: suggested was that we talked about underwear. So that's going 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: to be the topic for today. We're going to talk 19 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: about everything from the history of the undershirt to bloomers 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: and corsets. I know it is now October and so 21 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: y'all are probably expecting some Halloween stuff. We'll get to 22 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: that eventually, not today. Some of this will be scary, 23 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 1: no at least though, Holly is wearing a skeleton shirt today, 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: so so she is Halloween in spirit. And also it's 25 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: gonna help me. It's gonna help me visualize any conversations 26 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: we have about corsets and waste. You could get some 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: some pretty tightly thing if that were actually your torso 28 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: it's not. I have plenty of fluff right over it. 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: So I don't know where do you want to Where 30 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: do you want to start with us? I mean, I 31 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: was kind of thinking. One of the first personal emails 32 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: I ever say, not just a work related one, was 33 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: about Queen Victoria's underpan. Yeah, and then you didn't know 34 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: you were going to get me on my soapbar. I 35 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: just knew that this lady like costumes, she likes history. 36 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting the full blast of victoria underwear passion. Yeah. Well, 37 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: and I will say to set it up that I'm 38 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: also just a big fan of Queen Victoria, Like I'm 39 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: a dork, and I have her picture in my cube. 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: I carry a picture with me at all times. I 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: just have great admiration for her, UM because she was imperfect, 42 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. She is lauded as such 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: an important um monarch, but she made a lot of 44 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: missteps and that kind of endears her to me. The 45 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: thing that really got me was this article that you 46 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: had pointed out about her bloomers, which had been UM. 47 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: It was actually like four years ago that they were discovered, 48 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: but it only recently really picked up steam in terms 49 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: of coverage, and they went up for sale just last year, right. 50 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: And the thing that got me is the article in 51 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: question talked about how it was evidence of how heavy 52 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: she had gotten in her later life, and she did 53 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: put on weight, she was like a million years old 54 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: at that point, UM. But what frustrated me is that 55 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: they they claimed that she had a fifty inch waist 56 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: five zero based on these bloomers, and that's not how 57 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: bloomers working. They were tight, they were, but in fact 58 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: bloomers were worn't cinched a great deal. You needed a 59 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: lot of fabric involved to make them bloom. Well, part 60 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: of part of it, and we're going to get a 61 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: little real for a minute, UM has to do with 62 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: their actual function, which is to protect your clothing from 63 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: your body oils and other general you know, human dirt. 64 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: You're very rich expensive. Um and if for anyone who 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: has ever worn Victorian style bloomers, it's eye opening the 66 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: first time because, um, there is a lot of fabric 67 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: there and you realize and we'll come back a little 68 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: bit too, the split crotch which they had, there's no 69 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: way to delicately put that, but so that um, large 70 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: amount of fabric kind of fills in so that even 71 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: though they're just split there, you're usually not exposed. If 72 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: you're standing up in the bloomers, you wouldn't see anything 73 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: because the fabric kind of gathers around and makes a wall, 74 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: a protective wall between you and your clothes. Um. So 75 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: they sort of seemed to make the assumption, as she 76 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: said that it would be filled out and there would 77 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: not be a sinched draw string involved. And I remember 78 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: you telling me that a year ago. And I looked 79 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: at so many articles leading up to this episode, and 80 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: almost all of them did assume that she had a 81 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: fifty inch waist. And I saw a lot of things 82 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: talking about her ascension dress that she would have worn 83 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: when she was eighteen, and she had a twenty two 84 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: inch waist because you know, it's a very fitted dress, 85 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: and saying she went from twenty two inches at fifty 86 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: she did fill out. And there are some rumors that 87 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: say she was morbidly obese, and you can even find 88 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: some um um kind of gossipy writings of the time 89 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: that alleged that she was up to sixty inches. But 90 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you do the math on them, and 91 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: we've seen picture woman like her small, Yeah, she was short. 92 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: I mean she was like five ft tall, so she 93 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: would have been bigger around at that point than tall. 94 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: And if you see pictures of like her jubilee towards 95 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, the end of her life, she was stout. 96 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: She was not sixty inches of waste. But I mean, 97 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: I thought this was like a good place for for 98 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: us to start this discussion too, because it does show 99 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: how many misconceptions there are historical undergarment and how much 100 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: there is that that we don't know. That the average 101 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: person doesn't know, but even researchers, people who get into 102 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: all of this because it's not the it's not necessarily 103 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: the beautiful clothing that you keep, you put away, you 104 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: preserve a lot of what we have has kind of 105 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: come to us by chance almost, So we'll talk more 106 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,239 Speaker 1: about that later, a really cool recent find that came 107 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: completely by chance. But we're just going to go over 108 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: a few of the basic underwear types today, and I 109 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: don't know, what do you think is a good one 110 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: to start on. Maybe the shirt, sure, since that's a 111 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: basic one and it's kind of the original. Ever, I mean, 112 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: there are loincloths that are you know, documented in very 113 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: early history. But there have been times when something covering 114 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: from the waist down in like a pant or underpant 115 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: type fashion, has fallen out of favor and back in 116 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: and back out and back in. But there's almost always 117 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: been an undershirt that was often quite long, and it's 118 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: some in some eras that served the purposes of both. 119 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: And we should say too, I mean, I'm interpreting a 120 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: real undergarment. A real undershirt is something that is a 121 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: thin type of material. It's not what you're necessarily going 122 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: to be wearing under cloak or other layers of clothing. 123 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: In might show some but it's primarily for keeping under 124 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: your other clothes, to keep you clean, to keep them clean, 125 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: to provide warmth, all those things that people still use 126 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: undergarment spoor today, and they were generally very very lightweight fabrics, 127 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, the finest anyone could afford at the time 128 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: because most of the time there was a lot of 129 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: layered dressing involved and you want to minimize the bulk 130 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: as your layers build out my central heat. Yeah, it's 131 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: interesting that you mentioned them showing or not. I'm going 132 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: to diverge for a brief second. Do you know about 133 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: the big controversy with Marie in Twinett's wedding gown no idea? 134 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: Oh um, so in that era, completely not okay for 135 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: any of the undergarments to show, and when she showed 136 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: up for her wedding in France. Of course, anyone who 137 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: watched the movie m or have you done any reading, 138 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: it actually did take place though where she crossed the 139 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: board her from Austria France. She had to take off 140 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: everything she owned and leave it and then go into 141 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: France as a true air quotes French princess and um. 142 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: And at that point she was considered a princess because, 143 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: as many people know if you're a history buff, she 144 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: had already had a mock wedding with her brother as 145 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: a stand in for Louis Auguste, so that she was 146 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: technically where they send off their daughters. But somewhere along 147 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: the line, the measurements got messed up for her, or 148 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: there was an error on the dressmaker's plural because there 149 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: were many involved part and her wedding dress was too 150 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: small and her chemise was showing, and it was very scandalous, 151 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: and it was one of those things that kind of 152 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 1: kicked off the early stages of rumblings of distrust for her, 153 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: even though you know, her popularity waxed and waned a 154 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: little bit before it eventually really exploded into bad press everywhere. 155 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: That was very early on, like a big scandal that 156 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: one there going to She's acting like it's not even happening. Poor, 157 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: like fourteen year old girl, I know, just thrust into 158 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: this world of scandals. Well that's really interesting to hear too, 159 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: because we think of Marie Antoinetta is such a trend 160 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: setter too later on um that she started off her 161 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: public career essentially on, but you know, through through different 162 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: times sometimes having that undergarment, having the little sleeves or 163 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: the neck peek out was something that was okay. So 164 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: how did the shirt then shrink up to a shirt 165 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: length if we're thinking of it more as a tunic 166 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: sort of thing almost or a chemise. Well, I mean 167 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: even when you say shemis, I mean right up through 168 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: Victorian times it was still full length even under a 169 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: corset and with bloomers. In some cases there was also 170 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: a thing where called a combination you know what that is. 171 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: It's a bloomer and chemise combo burrito sort of thing. 172 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: They messed them together into one garment. So it's almost 173 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: like in concept it didn't look like this, but in 174 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: concept it worked similarly to a union suit where you 175 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: can step into it and button it down the front 176 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: and it looked like you were in like a little jumper. Um. 177 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: And that was again them in the mice bulk. But 178 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: that's really the first time that it kind of shrunk 179 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: up and became something else that I know of. How 180 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: about for men? What were what were they wearing after? 181 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: After men put tunics aside, they started wearing pants or 182 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: hose or whatever. What was happening with that long even 183 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: in um And since we were just talking about Myra intoine, 184 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: this is a great place to mention it, because it 185 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: was definitely happening then, Um, they had a long undershirt 186 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: that was serving as both there you know, top coverage 187 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: and their bottom coverage, even though they were wearing it 188 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: with pants. It was off and down to knee length, 189 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: and they would kind of fold it. The front was 190 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: a little bit shorter than the back. They would fold 191 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: the front up between their legs towards the back and 192 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: then pull the back forward and then pull their pants up, 193 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: and it was acting as their underwear and their T 194 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: shirt or the equivalent of what we would use a 195 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: T shirt for the day. That sounds that sounds like 196 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: a lot of bulk. And I'm thinking Holly and I 197 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: were looking at some pictures earlier today of of clothes 198 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: from what was about the eighteen thirties when men wore 199 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: very very slim pants, and I'm just imagining it was 200 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: not happening then at all. At that point they had 201 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: moved to we've gone to other types of undergarment. It 202 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: was like a union suit um which eventually kind of 203 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: shrunk up to look almost like a wrestling some shirt 204 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: lines in that. Oh yeah, well, the thing is again, 205 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: it's similar to what I was saying before about the 206 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: way bloomers were cut with a lot of fabric like, 207 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: when you see normally a gentleman from you know, the 208 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: the mid eighteenth century, you almost always see them in 209 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: a coat. There's a reason because there is a lot 210 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: of fabric at the back of their pants. There's a lot. Um. 211 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: If you watch any of the recent Payers of the 212 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: Caribbean movies, they actually really got this right because they 213 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: have a really phenomenal costume designer. Whether you like the 214 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: movies or not as separate issue, um, but when you 215 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: see them without them, you see like the big baggy 216 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: sack on the behind, and that's part of it is 217 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: that they were accommodating all that fabric and also, you 218 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: know they it allowed them freedom freedom of movement because 219 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: they could just kind of sit down and everything would 220 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: just spread around to kind of fill with spaces. Well, 221 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: freedom of movement is going to be sort of a 222 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: unique thing in this episode. That's probably a good segue 223 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: to course, it's because you are it is the exact 224 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: opposite a freedom of movement. Although you were telling me 225 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: earlier today that, of course it's can be kind of 226 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: liberating in that you don't have to do anything. It 227 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: is holding you upright, Yeah, I thought about just being 228 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: conscious of sitting up straight and how that takes so 229 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: much effort in and this probably speaks to my posture, 230 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: but eventually you start to get sort of tired even 231 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: but we're going to talk about sort of the more 232 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: extreme to where you're probably not thinking about how upright 233 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: you feel. You're maybe thinking more, I can't breathe and 234 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: I'm uncomfortable. Not necessarily how it started though, well, and 235 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: it's not how it was for most people. UM wellfit. 236 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: Of course it doesn't do that, it doesn't torture you. 237 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: And I think that's one of those things that um 238 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: history has been done a bit of a disservice by 239 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: modern film because it's always portrayed as this, I can't 240 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: breathe and it's like m the on the fainting couch, 241 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: and those things did happen, but those were like the 242 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: women that were doing that. We're almost like the equivalent 243 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: of like the Paris Hiltons of our day, like they 244 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: were the you know, breaking fashionistas, breaking your ankle in 245 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: in aiden cheels. Not everybody wears eight inch heels, right, 246 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: you might break your You're making foolish safety sacrifices for fashion. 247 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: And that was the same thing that was happening then 248 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: most people, most women were not walking around in a 249 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: corset that reduced their waist by four inches. They were 250 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: wearing a corset that was fitted and would provide support 251 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: to the bus line and smooth out the waist and 252 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: provide a good foundation for the very heavy clothes. And 253 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: I think something that that interests me once you get 254 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: beyond that idea that, of course it was just to 255 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: be laced as tightly as possible and make your waist 256 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: as tiny as possible. Once you get beyond that, you 257 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: can start really thinking about all of the shapes, and 258 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: that's really the goal of the course, to make your body, 259 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: whatever shape it might be, into the ideal shape at 260 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,239 Speaker 1: the time, which is not always an hour glass shape. 261 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: The Torrian is our glass, but there of course it's 262 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: preceding that. We're much more like conical. Yeah, Clinical Regency 263 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: was very um like a cylinder. It was very up 264 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: and down, which is kind of funny when you think 265 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: about it, because Regency gowns, you know, they cut up 266 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: under the bust and then they were usually pretty loose 267 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: from there, but there was still often of courset going 268 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: on underneath. A lot of restriction was below, keeping you 269 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: very straight, and I think because we do associate the 270 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: courset so much with that with more like Victorian style gowns, 271 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: it's hard to believe at first that there were types. 272 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: Of course, it's in ancient Greece even um, not steel obviously, 273 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: if they were doing binding at that point to kind 274 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: of smooth out there their silhouette, and and even beyond 275 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: that into Italian medieval Gothic style dresses. Um, not the 276 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: really restricted coursets that we tend to think of, but 277 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: ones that would smoothe down enough for these very snug 278 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: fitting boxes that were were popular. But is it the 279 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: bath corset that's really the first one that's kind of 280 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: an iconic corset style what we might think of today. 281 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: They're the very restricted shape proably. Yeah. I don't want 282 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: to be definitive because I'm like I think so, but 283 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: I always worry, having not looked for that specific question, 284 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: that I will have missed something. But yeah, I mean 285 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: that's really where it started to be more of like 286 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: a full body, full containment hard you know, you're not 287 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: really your body has to do this, it has no 288 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: other option. If you're in steel is involved. Suddenly are 289 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: hard materials. I think that one in particular pop to 290 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: me because Catherine de Medici, who is a common subject 291 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: on this show, she was said to, UM, you know 292 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: really popularize that kind of steel corset, very rigid style. UM. 293 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: So I always like it when I can associate a name, 294 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: you know, like you just did with the Marie Antoinette story, 295 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: because helps me think, oh, I know what that looks 296 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: like now, because I've seen pictures of these women exactly, 297 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: and it's interesting. Um if you think about you know, 298 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: art history, any portrait that you see, um from there Elizabeth, 299 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: there're Brazilian great portraits of One of the keys to 300 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: think about is the bodice is always perfectly rigid, Like 301 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: when you see a painting of Queen Elizabeth. There's never 302 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: a wrinkle in the bodice. And that's part of why 303 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: this was going on. Why coursets we're getting a little 304 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: bit more rigid and more sort of confining, because they 305 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: had to make that perfect cone shape for that nice 306 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: sharp edge and then the pleasing folds of the skirt 307 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: that would fall out underneath it. Um, that was the style, 308 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: and the only way to get it was with the 309 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: corset underneath it, because without it you just kind of 310 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: look like a lumpy mission up into your d have 311 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: a spine that moves, and you create wrinkles in your dress. Yeah, 312 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I um. If you ever want to see 313 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: an example of the problems that are created by not 314 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: having undergarments, I think if you go to like a 315 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: big convention or something. There are a lot of people now, 316 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: even at things like dragon Con and Comic Con, and 317 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 1: especially with steampunk having gotten so popular in terms of 318 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: making Victorian clothes more popular again, there are always people 319 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: that are maybe a little newer to costuming and they 320 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: don't realize they need the foundation garment and you can tell, 321 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: like you go, oh, something's not right there. The outfit 322 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: looks beautiful, but there they don't have the right undergarment. 323 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: And that's kind of a great quick lesson for the eye. 324 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: Like visually, oh, I see what happens with and without. 325 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: So if anybody's ever wondering troll around a convention and 326 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: look for the people in historical clothes that forgot to 327 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: make a course with, well, it's it's cool too. And 328 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: I can appreciate that you talked about the different silhouettes 329 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: that even thinking about silhouettes, where of course that doesn't 330 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: seem like an evident part of it, so sort of 331 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: like direct to our style, you know, so post French Revolution, 332 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: dramatic change in clothes. Stop thinking about Marie Antoinette, start 333 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: thinking about Empress Josephine or someone. But there's still structural 334 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: garments underneath there. It's not just a willy nilly world. 335 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: Although Marie Antoinette was kind of a forebear of it 336 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: was with her her time at night. I was like, 337 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to do with this stuff anymore. Um. 338 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: And there were a lot of scandalous things written about her, 339 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: how she didn't wear a corset and also asserting her 340 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: sexual promiscuity as being evidenced by the fact that she 341 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: didn't want to wear a corset at her private quarters, 342 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: and um, you know, it's a fascinating thing. But even so, 343 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: there was always a chemise under there, and always something 344 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: always again, because they did not have modern washing machines, 345 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: those fabrics were expensive and very fine, like even a 346 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: lot of the time on a chemise that was very 347 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: well appointed with beautiful trim. The trim was usually just 348 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: based it into lace, and the servants would actually unstitch 349 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: it from it so they could give the undergarment, a 350 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: good hard wash and then put that delicate lace back 351 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: on without damaging it. Like there was always stuff always 352 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: had to get moved around. It's good to hear, Holly, 353 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: that makes me feel better about the cleanliness of people 354 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: in the past. Well, then you hear you know other 355 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: tales of gentlemen that would wear their same union suit 356 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: all winter long and only take it off in the 357 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: spring to wash. We've done enough Arctic exploration episodes have 358 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: the full picture of wearing the union suit all winter. 359 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: But we've got to talk about the debate over courses 360 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: that too, because we've sort of been covering the era 361 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: where h the really extreme corseted figures might go in 362 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: and out of style, but there's always something there. But 363 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: eventually in sort of the second half of the nineteenth 364 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: century when it starts to become something that people get 365 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: really up in arms about, or even before that or 366 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: some There are a lot of political cartoons from um 367 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: colonial era that are about women foolishly, you know, jostling 368 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: themselves into the tiniest possible thing. There are some really 369 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: funny ones with very robust sized women trying to get 370 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: really thin down and they have the big giant Marian 371 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: twinette do on. Yeah, historical political cartoons are some funny, 372 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: funny business about fashion are really really funny. I saw 373 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: some a woman wearing a large crinoline and criticizing her 374 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: maid for looking like a fool for wearing a much 375 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: smaller one. All sorts of things like that, little snarky 376 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: old cartoons are amusing. Yeah, so there were I mean 377 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: there were people doing that even then, um, that were 378 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: tight lacing and being criticized for it. It's like, don't 379 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: you know your place, Like, please stop trying to be 380 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: something you're not. Um. And there were doctors going all 381 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: the way back that were like, I don't think this 382 00:21:54,440 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: is a good idea, but really, how than hygiene reformers, 383 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: clergy even saying that this was not a good thing 384 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: or this is a good thing. Uh, feminists of course, 385 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: and um, part of this seems like just because of 386 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: coursetting did get so extreme during this time with the 387 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: lost places Gibson girl. Yeah, that's really like there was 388 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,479 Speaker 1: a transition from the hour glass of Victorian era and 389 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: even within without bustle, that hour glass kind of stayed 390 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: in place for quite a long time. Um. If you 391 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: look at course it's from you know, early pre Civil 392 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: War part of the eighteen hundreds right up through the 393 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, nine hundred nineteen o one. They have pretty 394 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: much the same shape. There's some variation, but it's always 395 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: the hour last shape. But then something happened and it 396 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: became more about thrusting the bust forward and the rear 397 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: end back. And I think that's got so extreme that 398 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: that's where the kind of debate over it really hit 399 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 1: a fever pitch, because it starts to look clearly uncomfortable 400 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: and and like it might even have some long term Yeah. 401 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: I mean that was really Um, there started to really 402 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: be a commonality of women having health issues cracking ribs. 403 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: I mean for your underwear. That doesn't make any sense, 404 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: Like could you imagine now an any lady, you get 405 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: up and you put on a brawn it correct your ribs, 406 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: Like that just doesn't happen. That that sounds to think 407 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: about time for a new style. That's happening, And I 408 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: mean that that's that was a result. Style started to 409 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: change in a more natural form started to arise, and 410 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: that that started to become more popular and um, of 411 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: course it's really freaked out. Of course it manufacturers what 412 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: are we gonna do? We've been putting women in course 413 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: it's for ever, what are we going to do now? 414 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: I read a really interesting article about the corset Manufacturers 415 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: Light which wasn't really actually as much of a polite 416 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: as you might expect um in the Journal of Social 417 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: History by Jill Fields and um. She wrote that the 418 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: course that saleswoman became really important. You needed to be 419 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: a specialist. And you talked about this earlier that people 420 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: who say, of course it is automatically uncomfortable, they're in 421 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: the wrong one. Um. So that became an important aspect 422 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: of it. You had to have the right fit. It 423 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: wasn't just here's your measurement, here's the waste you're going for. 424 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: But also it became something that wasn't just about style 425 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: and dress. It became a discussion about science and modernity 426 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: and even race and really kind of icky ways, um, 427 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: and and just clasps and and things like that, the 428 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: uncorseted figure being slovenly um. But sometimes experts were even 429 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: drawn into this discussion. And the one that just really 430 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: blew my mind was this guy have luck Ellis, who 431 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: was cited by the Corset Manufacturers Association as claiming that 432 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: women had to be corseted because the evolution from a 433 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: horizontal to vertical position had been so much harder on women. 434 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: And he even said, quote, the corset is morphologically essential. 435 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: So this just made me think like boneless bags of 436 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: organs or something that could be our segue to the 437 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: Halloween discussion. But I just thought that was so strange 438 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: that instead of seeing this clear potential for other forms 439 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: of structural garments that you could sell, which is of 440 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: course what they eventually came to that realization. Instead you 441 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: you would think, no, you really have to be in 442 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: a corset, or you'll just collapse into a wicked witch 443 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: puddle or just pile. Yeah, exactly. But but of course, 444 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: you know, as styles changed of courset, manufacturers did realize 445 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: that there were other things they could sell. You could 446 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: sell dance course it that's my favorite, sport courses. You 447 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: have women playing organized sports that there are women's colleges, 448 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: You have things like tennis and bicycling. You have tango parties, 449 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: and you can't wear that really rigid corset if you're 450 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: in a tango or play tennis. You need a specialized product. Yeah, 451 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: and and eventually just the whole silhouette really changes to 452 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: UM in the in the teens, the debutante slouch. That 453 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: might be my favorite thing I learned in this episode, 454 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: just adopting this entirely new posture. Whereas you talk about 455 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth portraits of her, she's so upright, and that 456 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: had sort of been a standard for a very long time, 457 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: the new posture being one where you thrust your abdomen 458 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: out to partly minimize your bust, And it was just 459 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: it must have been so strange looking now are used 460 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: to people with all different sorts of postures, good and bad. 461 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: It must have been so strange though in this time, 462 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: especially with older women probably still maintaining a lot of 463 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: the more traditional styles and postures. Oh yeah, and especially 464 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: I mean part of that is born to the fact 465 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: that UM textiles and designers approaches to textile started to 466 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: change so much that they were starting to cut garments 467 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: on the bias because it could be made so much 468 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: faster thanks to the Industrial Revolution, that they could play 469 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: with how fabric draped a little bit more, And that's 470 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: actually considered kind of a I don't want to stay wasteful, 471 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: but that's the word keeps coming to mind. It's almost 472 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: a wasteful way to cut a garment um. Normally you 473 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,239 Speaker 1: would cut along the grain the warp or weft of it, 474 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: which are the perpendicular threads that run to one another, 475 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: and then you started cutting along the diagonal between them, 476 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: and it has this beautiful drape, but you burn through 477 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: fabric a lot faster. And so because you know, prior 478 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: to the big crash and twenty there was a lot 479 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: of opulence and there was a lot of like, we 480 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: can indulge ourselves with beautiful fabrics, let's cut it on 481 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: the bias um. And then of course it's weren't working 482 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: because they would show underneath that cut because it does 483 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 1: cling to the body and it kind of drapes, and 484 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: if the beauty of it is the draping, I imagine 485 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: you want the rigidity under was not looking so well. 486 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: I will not be shipping Bloomers. I don't have any 487 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: Bloomers to ship anywhere. You would want to keep the 488 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: Bloomers for yourself. I just imagine, because I think of 489 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: all of these underwear types we've discussed, Bloomers might be 490 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: sort of the most fun. Well, they're very personal, they're 491 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: they're just I mean I'm imagining, like baby bloomers, that 492 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: sort of thing. We're going to get into more of 493 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: the the details though, Yeah, it's very real. They're not 494 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: always the puffy baby pants I'm imagining. I mean, they 495 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: often were adorned with cute trim. But you know, it's 496 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: one of those interesting things. Um, if you've ever talked 497 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: about the Mulan Rouge and can Can dancers, you know 498 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: people always talk about how they were a little loose, uh, 499 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: sexually because they would dance and show off their split underwear. Okay, 500 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: everybody was wearing split underwear. And here's why. Let me 501 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: just take you for a lockdown learning lane. You may 502 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: not have wanted, um, if you are wearing bloomers which 503 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: go under your corsets and the chemise and then your 504 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: corset over it, there is no way to pull those 505 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: bloomers down without undoing everything, taking off all your clothes, etceteratcha. 506 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: So they were split, um, almost all the way that 507 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: entire scene that runs, you know, from your belly button 508 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: to the small of your back, between your legs, your 509 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: crop seam was almost open all the way in some cases, 510 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: so almost two pant legs with a lace right with 511 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: a draw string. Sometimes they weren't even joined well, and 512 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: again I'm going to go back to all of that fabric. 513 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: Allow was you when you were in the outhouse to 514 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: kind of pull those pant legs apart up around you 515 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: and then you could sit on the toilet and take 516 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: care of business. So a practical, practically practical. Yeah, if 517 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: you could call that practical by modern standards, it seems 518 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: woefully impractical, But that was it's it's practical reason. That's 519 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: why the underpants were split. They weren't split in and 520 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: so that they could show them all because can can. 521 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,959 Speaker 1: They were just that was the only way to make 522 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: it all work and like live your life in a 523 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: semi normal It's kind of the disturbing note now to 524 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: apply that to can can cancer. I don't know. Hopefully 525 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: they were at least breaking out a pair of special 526 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: bloomers just for the can Can. You know. I think 527 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: it depends on where you were watching what yah which shift? 528 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: Probably um so bloomers you want to move back on 529 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: up to the brazier. Yeah, although we should talk about 530 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: the bloomer trend. You found fascinating that we talked about 531 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: a little before. They're fake and I think this is 532 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: maybe what I think is kind of cute. So i'm 533 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: i'm I'm identifying with the cute baby bloomers and then 534 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: the pantiles because they're just they're so strange, so fun. Yeah. 535 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: So they apparently appeared in fashion magazines as early as 536 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: eighteen o five, but didn't really catch on for a while. 537 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: People must have just seen them because they do look. 538 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: It's a bizarre look, um, And I can imagine women 539 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: in eighteen o five with these radically new silhouettes already 540 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: being like, okay, and now I'm supposed to wear pantal lips. Um. 541 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: But they did eventually catch on, although they finally became 542 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: something that just little girls would wear. But these are 543 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: little pants that would peep out from under your dress, 544 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: so not the floor sweeping dresses anymore, ones that about 545 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: ankle length or so. So you would have pants, very 546 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: pretty fatten ones, ones with lace peeping out from underneath. 547 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: And what I find so bizarre is that eventually it 548 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: got to the point where you might not want to 549 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: wear that, but you liked the look, so you would 550 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: wear false pantlets, which were I have to imagine just 551 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 1: leg warmer with tapes attaching them up. To your your waist, 552 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: whatever other garments you have going on up there. Um. 553 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: Polly and I were speaking earlier about dickies, you know, 554 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: false fronts for false turtlenecks, false cancels, things like that 555 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: basically away to look like you're wearing an undershirt that 556 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: you're not really wearing. And I can I can see 557 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: that I've never worn one of those myself. I don't 558 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: have any false turtlenecks, but I can see the appeal 559 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: for something like that. You want to layered, look, you 560 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: want to but not mess with old stuff. I can't 561 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: really get my mind around false pantalot because it doesn't 562 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: seem like it would be any more convenient. It seems 563 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: like having these weird tapes going over most of your 564 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: legs and then leg warmers, things would get twisted and uncomfortable. 565 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: We've already talked about the split bloomers and all the 566 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: fabric there and how awkward that is, especially with a 567 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: crinol um. It's just more Fabrican weirdness, whereas it seems 568 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: like just a pair I'm imagining comfy PJ loose pants 569 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: that you wear under your dress. Seems so simple. Maybe 570 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: we should bring it back I doubled dog there you 571 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: all do it if you do it in here with it? 572 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: I mean, can I wear leggings under that? So that 573 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: counts alright. Final topic is this. If we weren't talking 574 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: about this now, I think Dieplena and I would be 575 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: talking about it in our amazing twenty twelve Discoveries in History. 576 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: Even though it's not technically discovery, they had to date 577 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: and be very careful with their data. Yeah, so we 578 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: are talking about the oldest bra in the world, or 579 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 1: what's believed to be the oldest bra. So um previous 580 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: assumptions up until now, or that men wore these shirts 581 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: that we've discussed, women wore sms course at whatever other 582 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,439 Speaker 1: sort of garments. But there wasn't a braw like what 583 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: we think of as a brawl, and we should we 584 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: should give some some detail to that because bandeaux styles 585 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: were also worn in ancient Greece, so we're not talking 586 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: about a brawl like that. A bra has to be 587 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: two distinct cups right to count, not not like an undershirt, 588 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: not like a camusele shirt, but an actual structured garment 589 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: with seeming that creates, as you said, the cups for 590 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: each of your breaths exactly. That's a weird thing here. 591 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 1: So in two thousand eight, UM there was a very 592 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: interesting discovery in East Tyrol, Austria, in Langberg Castle, which 593 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: was built I think they're guessing around eleven ninety or so, 594 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: but the castle had been pretty extensively remodeled in the 595 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: fifteenth century and during some two thousand eight works and 596 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: two thousand eight renovations, this vault of trash was discovered. 597 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: And I love things like this because it gives you 598 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: a peek at everyday life rather than the things that 599 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: people have preserved for whatever reason. This is a vault 600 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,919 Speaker 1: of trash. It's filled with things like wood, textiles, scraps, yeah, 601 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: all the stuff that nobody would have really cared about. Um. 602 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: But because of the conditions in this vault, all of 603 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: it is really well preserved. So two thousand, seven hundred 604 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: textile fragments were found. According to the great Smithsonian blog Threaded, 605 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: which is lots of fun for fashion history, UM and 606 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: um hung those fragments were four brash, Yeah, and it 607 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: is fascinating because this, you know, the fifteenth century is 608 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: one of those times when most costume historians are at 609 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: best taking a wild stab at at the layering that 610 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: may or may not have been going on. We know 611 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: their clothes were very tight, and a lot of people 612 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: have just assumed along the way that just the tightness 613 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: of the clothes was kind of covering all of the 614 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: bases of keeping everything in place, because I mean it 615 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: went all the way down to the arms, like, um, 616 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: if you see any modern um films or anything about 617 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: that are what people often remark is that the the 618 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: bodices and the arms are all very form fitted and tight, 619 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: and like, how would you move not so much? Um. 620 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: This kind of turns that whole concept on its head, 621 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 1: it really does. And and they're different style bras too, 622 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: so it's like you got a little selection from the 623 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: department store on us. It's not just one cut. There 624 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: two that look kind of like this contraption that's occasionally 625 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: referenced from this period called breast bags, and it's kind 626 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: of like a halter top like today's standards. So I 627 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,479 Speaker 1: was I was talking to Holly about breast bags and 628 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: and thinking that they sounded really awkward. Somebody wanted to 629 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: talk to me about that, and you did say, it's 630 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: basically like a halter top. So two of them kind 631 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: of like that. Apparently those could be used for various 632 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: uh silhouettes that you were going for, whether to minimize 633 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: or enhance. I feel kind of weird saying that on 634 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: the podcast a little late, but they do essentially just 635 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: look like supportive halter shirt. Almost the third looks like 636 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: a modern brawl it's got straps and cups in a backband, 637 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: and then the fourth looks like a fifties style braw 638 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: one that extends low on the rib cage um, I 639 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: guess for some extra support. But the really well thing 640 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: about all of this is they're they're pretty. I mean, 641 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: if you look at the picture of a of the 642 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: one that they're really showing off, it does look like 643 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: a bra. But as much as it has been destroyed 644 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: over the years, it's pretty, you know, but there was 645 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: it has details on it. It's not just this um 646 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: utilitarian garment. Well, and there has been some discussion about 647 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 1: whether or not about the its actual use, whether it 648 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: was a functional foundation garment or if it was more 649 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: of a boudoir garment, which brings up a whole nest 650 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: of other questions of like you never think about, you know, 651 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: kind of that sort of tittilating approach to fashion going 652 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: on so much in that era, even though I'm sure 653 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 1: it must have been on some level. I meant everyone 654 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: has wanted to police a partner at some point in 655 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: time since history began. Um. But yeah, so there is 656 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: a lot of debate over the actual um purpose of 657 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: that garment and why would they make it so well, 658 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: we make pretty undergarments that no one has ever meant 659 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,760 Speaker 1: to see or at most, you know, our closest family members. 660 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: So it's kind of fascinating from that perspective, it is, 661 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: And um, it's just a little a little peek into 662 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: fashion from hundreds of years ago, and also such an 663 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: eye open ur two for for folks who assumed that 664 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: the bra is something that didn't develop until way way 665 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: after this, that the bral had to have come after 666 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: the corset. Yeah, And I mean it's if you look 667 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: it up online or even in many books. The history 668 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 1: of the bra usually starts in en when Mary Phelps Jacob, 669 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: who is a socialite who found that those bias cut 670 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: garments that I was talking about earlier, her corset messed 671 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: up the line of it, like you could see the 672 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: bones sticking out, and she didn't find it pleasing and 673 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,280 Speaker 1: that she and her maid concocted what was the first 674 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: bra out of two handkerchiefs and some ribbon. I have 675 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: some series. We actually did a broad episode it on 676 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: Pop Stuff, and I kind of went off on my 677 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: I bet the servant did all the work, she took 678 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: all the credit. I don't. She was probably a lovely girl. 679 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: But that's where we normally mark the start of the 680 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: modern brazier, because even though there were various forms, that 681 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: was the first one that was patented, and then she 682 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 1: sold that patent and it took off as an industry. Well, 683 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,359 Speaker 1: and um, we had been I think a listener had 684 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: recommended this article, this BBC history article where this news 685 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: came out about the bra fine too, to our podcast 686 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: and then also to mom Stuff because clearly they're going 687 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: to be interested in this news too. And I forwarded 688 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,439 Speaker 1: the article onto y'all are just gonna think I sent 689 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: Holly all underwear article, any any historical underwear. But I 690 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: did something I'm fascinated with which you knew I did, 691 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: so I forwarded onto you and I remember your response 692 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: to that too, And it was at first, you know, 693 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: I saw the subject line and I was just ready 694 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: to dismiss that. I was thinking, Oh, surely will be 695 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: some modified corset or band do, and You're like, it 696 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: really looks this looks like a bra um So I 697 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: think everybody might need to go check out that picture now. 698 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: It is. It's very eye opening because it looks exactly 699 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: like a bra you would buy now that went through 700 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: the dryer, like exactly, and then you're dog chewed on 701 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: it a little bit. That's how you could recreate your 702 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: own historical garment. Historical garment. Yeah, it's so fascinating, and 703 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: you know the I'm always fascinated by all of this 704 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: from both the fashion standpoint and the development and evolution 705 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: of fashion. I mean, there's so many things we could 706 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 1: still talk about because I'm such an information junkie about it. 707 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: But I just think sociologically, it's really fascinating how people 708 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: have treated their bodies through time in the interest of fashion. Yeah, 709 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 1: and I think people deciding to accept or reject fashions 710 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: that are either clearly uncomfortable or weird is really neat too. 711 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: So so um the idea that women would accept the 712 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: s shaped course it, you know, the epitome of beauty, 713 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: but then against it too. Eventually, I'm not going to 714 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: wear something like that anymore. And and you really do 715 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: get into that more in the teens and twenties. Um, 716 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: but then it goes back to with Christian Dior's new look. 717 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean, we've got to at least mention that for 718 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: a second, sort of a return to a course that 719 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: it look and a lot of women really didn't like 720 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: that that that was the direction style was heading back. 721 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: And there were protests over over that look, but also 722 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: a mass exception or acceptance of it rather too. Um, 723 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: something so different from the box the war rationing styles 724 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: that had that had come immediately before. So what fashions 725 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: were what one still when people decide to accept it, 726 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: When they see those pantalets in eighteen o five and 727 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: are like, I cannot imagine wearing those, but then their 728 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: daughters wear them a generation later, it's really neat to 729 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: me to think about all that. Yeah, And I mean, 730 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,240 Speaker 1: of course it's are so fascinating, I think to people 731 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: today because people still wear them. I mean they're fetishized 732 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 1: in some cases, but also just as a fashion garment, 733 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: they've moved outside there and I mean they are Bible 734 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: parties that are impeautifully you know, made corsets, and that's 735 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: sort of how I became fascinated with them, was seeing 736 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,879 Speaker 1: like these really beautiful, fascinating costume pieces and going, oh, 737 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: that's really where I should learn how to make those. 738 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,399 Speaker 1: And that's how I ended up down the rabbit hole 739 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: of like having this ridiculous library of books about the 740 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,399 Speaker 1: history of corse of tree and how it's evolved. And 741 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: I just, uh, there's a reason we're fascinated with underwear. 742 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,800 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what that reason is even, but of 743 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: course it's I think in particular, really strike accord with 744 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: people because one, they tend to be divisive. Um, you 745 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: either go oh yes or that it's crazy, and there's 746 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,399 Speaker 1: not a lot of in between. And two, I mean 747 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: there's just something fascinating about kind of taking control of 748 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 1: your shape in that way that draws people into it. 749 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: And we didn't even get into tight lasers. Really like 750 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: the people that really do body modification through prolonged use 751 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: of courser try um, which is a fascinating world in 752 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: and of itself. Um yeah, it's like the one garment 753 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 1: that just makes people. Yeah, the undershirt is not. It 754 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: doesn't have that same like, oh, chamiss, tell me all 755 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: about them. We gotta incorporate those in outward fashion. Uh yeah, alright, well, 756 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make bloomers come back. You and me both 757 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: are gonna start wearing them underdress pantal lets all the way. Yeah, 758 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 1: pantal let's all right, Holly, let's make this happen. You 759 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: don't angle that carrot, I will hold you to. I'm 760 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: gonna come into work in a couple of weeks and 761 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: there will be like a neatly folded parapet on my 762 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,759 Speaker 1: on my desk. I'm not sure what length dresses I 763 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: would even have to wear with pantal it, so I'd 764 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: have to get out my old prom dress or something 765 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 1: just below the knee for pantalt that might look like 766 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: I was living in the Oneida Commune or something. We're 767 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 1: not going to go full length bo peep. We're going 768 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: to go calf length on the pantolets, just to loving 769 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: the on the dress. We're gonna post pictures. Oh my god. Okay, 770 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: well we'll all look forward to that, to the new 771 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: fashion trends, new new historic. UM. So, if you guys 772 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 1: want to share any other details about probably historical underwear 773 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 1: or historic inspired underwear, um, let us know. We are 774 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're also on 775 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: Twitter at Miston History, and we are on Facebook. And 776 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: I know that so many of our listeners so and 777 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: a lot of you guys are actually heard from costumers 778 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 1: UM doing theatrical costume and cosplay stuff. And I really 779 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,280 Speaker 1: hope that you guys enjoyed this especially and and share 780 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 1: some of your own stories about UM trying to get 781 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,839 Speaker 1: that right look that Holly is talking about. You can't 782 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 1: just wear the dress. You've gotta have start from the 783 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 1: inside out exactly. So UM, I don't know do we 784 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 1: have any cool fashion related articles. We actually have an 785 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,800 Speaker 1: article on how course It's worked? Perfect, Okay, cool, breezy. 786 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't get into all of the stuff that we 787 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: got into here, but it covers all the basic points 788 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,839 Speaker 1: and you should absolutely check that out. Yeah, you can 789 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,360 Speaker 1: do that by searching for how Course It's Work on 790 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:50,760 Speaker 1: our homepage at www dot how stuff works dot com 791 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 792 00:46:53,239 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com. I wasn't able lay that. 793 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: I wasn't able La