WEBVTT - Selects: The Manson Family Murders Part 2 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.600 Hey, everybody, Chuck here back. I'm still in my spooky 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.680 mood from two weeks ago because I'm introducing this episode 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.479 from January thirty at twenty eighteen. It's a follow up 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.520 to two weeks ago about the Manson Family. It's called 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:17.840 The Manson Family Murders Part Two. What happens? Will Charlie 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:18.560 get away with it? 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:20.520 I doubt it. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:35.360 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:37.640 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.720 I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.159 Rowland over there, and this is Stuff you Should Know 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:45.880 about the Manson Family Part two. 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.960 That's right if you're listening to this one first and 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.160 you're doing it wrong, so no need to recap. Just 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.880 go listen to part one and we'll pick up with 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.640 the Beatles Wide Album, which was a very big deal 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.280 in how this figure's in great great album. Obviously as 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.400 a Beatles fan, I know you're not super into them, 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:12.960 but I love the White Album arguably their weirdest album, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.200 and it spoke to Charles Manson for sure, because he 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:23.920 really became pretty obsessed with it and diving into deconstructing 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.880 the album. It's a very dense long album anyway, and 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.119 there's a lot to it. So it's no wonder that 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.000 Charles Manson, with a head fallow acid, would think that 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:35.960 the Beatles are speaking to him. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.640 Right, and he definitely did so. 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:43.520 He apparently had a history already of deconstructing Beatles lyrics, 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:48.040 but before he was deconstructing lyrics, so like Sergent Pepper's 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.919 Lonely Hearts Club Band, which compared to the White Album, 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:54.800 is decidedly upbeat and positive, right, So while he was 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.120 in prison, he was super into the Beatles. When he 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.400 gets out, the Beatles released the White Album, he's already 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.800 obsessed with, but now he's on tons and tons of acid. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.400 The White Album is kind of a downer compared to 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.560 Sergeant Pepper's and the fact that it's speaking to Charlis 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.240 Manson like really made things turn dark, it seems like, 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.360 as far as him and the people in his orbit 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:18.360 are concerned. 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:23.840 Yeah, so they're hanging out, they're lighting bonfires, they're doing drugs, 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.120 they're listening to Charles Manson stomp around with his tiny 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:34.239 feet in his redneck voice talking about Helter Skelter, which 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:38.760 is a great, great Beatles song and basically sort of 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:46.200 sort of renamed his vision for this race war and 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.200 impending apocalypse Helter Skelter. He kind of stole that from 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.639 the Beatles, as Bono would later go on. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.920 To say, yeah, he stole from the Beatles, but he 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.320 also took it again as like a message that the 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.960 Beatles were sending him aside that he needed to prepare 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.720 his family for this because they were the chosen ones 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:09.480 basically who should weigh out the race riot in Death Valley. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:15.000 So there's this whole idea that the all of the 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:20.519 Tate LaBianca murders took place to further this idea of 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.960 Helter Skelter to strike strike the match that would set 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:28.120 it off to get things going right. And this idea 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:32.959 apparently is the creation of the prosecutor in the case, 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.840 a guy named Vincent Bugliosi, who wrote a book called 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.760 Helter Skelter, like a six hundred page book. Basically this 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:45.000 the definitive true crime book on the Manson family and 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.240 the Manson family murders. And so most of the most 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.080 of what we said in Part one and most of 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:55.880 what everybody knows about the Manson family murders are come 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.960 through this lens that was established by Vincent Bugliosi, who 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:02.720 is the lead prosecutor in the case, was privy to 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:09.000 tons of information, to confessions, to interviews, under questioning, to 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.120 all this stuff. But he's the one who pieced together 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.680 the idea that the Manson family committed these murders to 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:17.480 start helter skelter. 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:19.279 That was his whole jam. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:25.000 Yeah. Well, I mean some of the Manson family corroborated, cooberated. 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:30.000 It's in there somewhere corroborated. That's a dark time with 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.520 that word corroborated, corroborated. I don't have to say it much, luckily, 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.520 because I'm not in a life of crime. No, but 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:40.640 some of them back that up and saying that, you know, 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.120 at one point he wanted them to throw a wallet 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.920 of a victim in a black neighborhood so that people 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.120 would think it was, you know, black panthers that did this. Yeah, 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.600 but it's some evidence that that was probably the case. 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.800 If you talk though to Manson and you or if 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.479 you've listened to some of the stuff he says. Some 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.839 of these ext nations because over the years people have said, 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.080 what about this part, what about this part? And have 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.200 basically presented him with every aspect of the whole case 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.680 against him. You know, a lot of the stuff he 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:12.880 has no explanation for nothing good. But that wallet is 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.520 a sterling example of where it becomes obvious that. 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.320 Wait, we're basically hearing. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.479 One point of view about this, and we've never that's 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.880 all we've ever heard. Which if you're doing any kind 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.320 of reporting, which you and I are not, but if 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.880 you were inclined to do any kind of reporting, you 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.320 never want to just stick to just one source. And 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.919 with the Manson family case, it's basically one source, and 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.480 it's Vinsive Bugliosi, the prosecutor. But Manson explains it as 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.560 he told I think it was Linda Kasabian to just 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.520 get rid of that wallet, that he wasn't in a 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.320 predominantly black neighborhood, and that he told her to get 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.560 rid of the wallet because it was hot, and she 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.560 hid the wallet actually in the tank of a toilet 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.919 in a women's bathroom in a gas station, which is 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.680 hardly where you'd put it if you wanted a black 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.360 person defined it to use the credit cards inside and 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.520 to tip off the cops that a black person was 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.960 behind the Tate La Bianca murders. So when you when 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:11.960 you kind of dive into stuff like that, you see 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:17.480 that there actually are two competing explanations in some aspects 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:18.240 of this case. 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:20.920 Yeah, but I think Kasabian herself said that too, though, 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:21.279 didn't she. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:21.919 Yeah. 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.440 The thing is that if you are if you look 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.159 at Charles Manson, right, I know that's. 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:27.800 That's the thing is. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.360 It's a terrible realization when you're like, actually, I'm wait 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.200 a minute, I understand what Charles Manson is saying. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:33.400 Here. 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.880 The with with stuff like that when you look at 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.440 the testimony, These were people who were on trial for 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:47.359 murder who had every incentive to go along with the 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:52.640 lead prosecutor's theory that it was all Charles Manson's fault. 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.120 They could have maybe immunity. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.680 They could have they could have charges dropped against them 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.120 that by saying yes, this is the case, or having 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:07.680 their testimony jibe with what Vincent Bugliosi's case was, they 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.120 had an incentive to do that. 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.080 Whether Charles Manson is right or correct or lying. 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:17.520 From an objective perspective, the people on Charlfer murder had 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:23.880 an incentive to agree with Vincent Bugliosi all right. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.920 So the way they got caught was actually pretty interesting. 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:34.280 Unrelated to these murders. Police raided Spawn Ranch because it 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.960 was sort of became known that the people were living 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:42.360 there that were out on these creepy crawls doing these crimes, 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.440 and so that's why they were originally fingered, as they 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.000 say in the biz. And they went there and they 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.520 rated Spawn Ranch and a lot of the family were 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.040 arrested at that time for like car theft and burglary 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.520 and stuff. They were released on its technicality and then 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.120 went to Death Valley to that weird ranch. If you 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:04.880 ever been to Death Valley, it's not a place you 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.400 want to hang out. No, it's not, especially in the summertime. 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.360 Is that where Joshua Tree is? No, that's it Joshua Tree, 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.080 But that's not in Death Valley. 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:15.880 No, those are two different places. 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:17.800 But is it close by? There is the same type 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:18.920 of terrain kind of thing. 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:21.360 Yeah, I mean I've been to both. 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:22.840 Are they similar? 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.000 Well, I mean Joshua Tree is the desert for sure, 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.040 but it is very lovely. Like I don't remember much 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:33.320 about Death Valley that was. I think it was not 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:34.960 very hospitable for me. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:36.840 It's appropriately named. 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:41.440 Yeah, I think so okay, And of course now people 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.640 are going to say Death Valley's the best, you know 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:49.640 what you're talking about, heavy sweater, so they go to 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.160 Death Valley. Then there were a bunch of raids at 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:56.640 the Death Valley camp between October tenth and twelfth of 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:02.080 nineteen sixty nine, and eventually they ended up rounding up 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.120 the people responsible for these murders without knowing that they 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:08.240 were responsible for these murders, so they were in jail 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.960 kind of luckily already in jail when they sort of 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.719 decided they could pin, will not pin like legitimately pin 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:20.080 these murders on these people. 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.360 So this being the second time, there's something that I've 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.120 ran across in research, Chuck that it never gets talked about, 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:29.480 but is I think really significant. At both of those raids, 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.079 the Spawn Ranch raid and the Death Valley rate, the 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:38.359 state took children from this, Like there were kids, babies, toddlers, 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:44.120 little kids running around growing up like at the Spawn 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.560 Ranch end at the Barker Ranch, which is extraordinarily troubling, 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.120 and some of them have been are thought to have 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:56.240 possibly been Charles Manson's kids, like he may have had. 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.360 There's just so much free love going on, and so 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.000 many pregnancies that were the results was free love. It 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.280 was difficult to say whose kid was whose, but it's 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.160 they think that it's possible at least one or two 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.360 of those kids was Charles Manson's kids, and they were 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.960 taken by the state and later adopted by people. But 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:14.080 it's like, you know, it's one thing to think of 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.520 a bunch of hippies just out in the desert taking acid, 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.120 just being idiots, you know, and then eventually turning dark 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.720 and murderous. But the idea that there were kids around 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.920 at any part of this is really I find it 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:26.680 very troubling. 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.520 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I mean, all those cults 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:35.040 had kids roaming around. They just weren't murderous cults, you know. 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:35.880 Yep. 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.800 So Susan Atkins, for her part, she agreed to testify 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:45.079 initially against Charles Manson to avoid the death sentence, which 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:50.080 for a few years more was still a thing in California. 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.400 I think in nineteen seventy two they reversed that, but 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.040 at the time the death sentence was a threat at 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.080 the time of the crimes, so she had a grand 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.960 jury testimony. It basically led to Manson being arranged for 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:07.359 these murders. In December sixty nine, she recanted that testimony 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.280 and the deal was revoked by the prosecutors. It was 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.880 kind of too late at that point. Linda Kasabian, who 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.640 you might remember was I thinks that getaway driver and 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.280 then the one who would not knock on the right 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:24.280 apartment door to kill the actor, so she'd actually didn't 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.520 commit any murders at all, was not in any of 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:30.880 the houses. She was granted immunity for testifying, and I 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:35.200 think she was the only one granted immunity. 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.640 Right, although I think, yeah, they just took the death 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.280 penalty off, like you said, for Susan Atkins. And I 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:40.880 don't know if you said this or not, but Susan 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.439 Atkins is the reason the case broke open eventually, when 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.679 they'd rounded up all of the Manson family and had 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.719 him in jail for the death Valley raids for you know, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.600 burglary and theft and stuff like that. The way that 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.000 they found out that the Manson family was responsible for 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.160 the Tate LaBianca murders was Susan Atkins bragging about it 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.360 and a couple of her cell mates going and telling 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.640 the cops and that's originally how the case began against 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.160 the Manson family. That's how the authorities originally found out 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:09.120 big mouth. 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:10.680 Yeah, I guess so. 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:12.760 All right, so let's take a break and we'll come 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.920 back and talk a little bit about one of the weirdest, 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.959 most sensational trials in American history right after this. 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.240 All right, Chuck, So, on December eleventh, nineteen sixty nine, 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.840 Charles Manson, who the public had just been acquainted with, 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.840 I think just in the last few months, was finally 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:02.679 arraigned for the murders of the Tate Labiyonca murders. And 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.200 I think that did they get him for his role 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:07.560 in the Hyndman murder at. 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.000 That point, I'm not actually sure about that. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.199 Definitely the Tate Labyonca murders, which was plenty enough. 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:17.120 And he. 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:21.200 It's it's it's kind of an understatement to say that 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.280 he did not offer any public contrition. 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:26.960 He actually went the opposite way. 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.240 Yeah, for sure, he was well. The whole trial was chaos, 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:36.240 and he he incited chaos at every turn to make 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.400 it just a circus and was quite successful at doing so. 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.520 Initially wanted to represent himself and did for a little 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:48.200 while but the judge denied that, Judge William Keane and said, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.360 you have to work with a lawyer because of the 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.120 fact that you're just making this into a circus. Basically, 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.840 we need this to stay on track. And he actually 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:02.920 was successful, though Manson was getting Judge Keene oustered as 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:09.120 judge and Judge Charles Older eventually would oversee the trial. 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.640 Yeah, and I read a twenty thirteen interview with Manson, 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.160 and the thing that seemed to still get him the 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.800 most was that he was denied the ability to represent 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:21.880 himself in court, like he felt like he never got 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.040 to have his saying court and that was that was 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.920 the thing that got him more than anything else, not 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.400 being locked up for his whole life or anything like that. 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.840 It was that he didn't get to open his big 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.800 mouth in court as much as he wanted to. 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.440 So I guess we could go over some of these 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:42.280 things that happened in court that led to this circus atmosphere. 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:44.680 And by the way, if you want to see it yourself, 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.200 there's a pretty good dramatic recreation in the movie Helter 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.680 Skelter that was based on Mugliosi's book. 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:58.120 Yeah, nothing better than dramatic recreations. Yeah, lots of yelly 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.440 and screaming, lots of shouting and cursing, lots of disrespect 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.520 to the judge and the American flag. They threw a 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.840 copy of the Constitution in the garbage. At one point, 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:14.600 very famously, Charles Manson carved an X into his forehead, 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.880 which later became a swastika, saying that he was exed 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.880 out of the world. And then his family members would 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.640 do the same, and they would shave their heads and 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.040 generally just try and disrupt things at every turn. 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.119 Right, And they did. I mean, they were quite successful. 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.200 But the trial kept going on and on, right, I 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.280 think it was. It went on for a couple of years, 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.120 based on news articles I was reading about it. So 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:43.480 it turns out, though that Richard Nixon supposedly had the 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:48.400 most disruptive effect on the trial by saying while the 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.920 trial was going on, quote, here's a man who was 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:56.480 guilty directly or indirectly of eight murders without reason. He 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.840 was the sitting US president commenting saying that this guy 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.280 was guilty of a trial that was going on, which is, 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:06.360 you just don't do that. It doesn't matter what the 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:10.200 case is, not for any compassion for Charles Manson or 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.480 anything like that. But just because even on the other side, 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.320 you could have blown the case and and he legitimately 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.520 could have created a mistrial there. Yeah, just because the 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:22.840 President said something and everyone reported on it. 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:24.600 I can't imagine that happening today. 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:26.120 I totally can't. 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.680 It was a very Trumpian move. So we talked. I 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.520 think we covered the helter Skelter thing enough, don't you. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:33.640 We did. 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:35.440 But I think there's a there's a big thing that 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:39.880 all this hinges on. Is that there the prosecution said, 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.280 and you said earlier you even had a quote from 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.880 Tex Watson that Charles Manson told him to go and 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.640 just destroy the people in that house, gruesome as you can. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.680 And the prosecution said that that Charles Manson was trying 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.000 to spark the Helter Skelter race war that he believed 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.160 was going to happen. Manson's whole thing was this here, 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.200 This is Charles manson since explanation for what happened and 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:06.200 why he's innocent. He said, Yeah, I believed in Helter Skelter. Yes, 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.800 I believe there's a race war coming. I talked about 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.560 it at night around bombfires with everybody on acid. I 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.560 also talked about death of the ego and all sorts 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:20.840 of other stuff. And if you ask me, what happened 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.640 was my friends just took things and went it, took 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.679 it too literally and went too far, and that it 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:32.080 all hinged on this Bobby Bousselay thing, right, And even 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.160 before that, there lots of Papa thing. So Tex Watson 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.240 rips off Bernard, lots of Papa Crow and he's got 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.320 a problem with lots of Papa who wants to kill 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:44.200 him now, and Manson goes over there to help Tex 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:48.000 Watson solve this problem by shooting, shooting lots of Papa. 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.480 So now as far as Manson and Text are concerned, 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.520 Tex owes Watson a debt, any kind of debt, well 0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:00.760 Manson's or Text owns Manson a debt. Now, Manson's friend 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.760 Bobby Bousilla, who is one of his tightest family members, 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:09.480 gets arrested for murder, the murder of Gary Hinman, and 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.000 Manson says, well, you know, I mean you should do 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:16.520 something to help my brother Bobby Bousola, And you know, 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.840 Tex says, well what should I do? And apparently Manson 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.000 flew off the handle and said, don't ask me what 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:23.880 you should do, you know what you should do. 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:25.040 And that was that. 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:30.520 And the next thing, Manson knows Watson and cren Winkle 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:35.240 and Atkins are over at the at the Tate residence, 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.840 carving up Sharon Tate and the rest of the people 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.280 in the house. He didn't say anything about going to 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.200 kill anybody. He didn't direct him anywhere, he didn't say 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:47.440 anything like that. He just said they took what all 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:49.760 the other stuff that he'd said too far, and that 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.360 really what they were doing was trying to cover up 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.600 cover for Bobby Boussola to get him out of prison. 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.400 That's Manson's explanation for the whole thing. 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.240 Well, yeah, and for the part well, I guess we 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.239 should go ahead and say that that all of these 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:12.359 people went to prison, and Susan Atkins, Patricia Crenwinkle, Leslie 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:16.280 Van Houghton, they all were, you know, still so under 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.280 his spell that they were fully ready and did take 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.400 the blame for these killings. But when it comes to parole, 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.520 it was in January nineteen seventy one that they were 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:30.480 all convicted on all accounts murder conspiracy to commit murder. 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.080 But years later, as parole hearings would come up for 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.159 all these women and Tex Watson and Manson himself the 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:45.400 reason why they were continually denied, even like Tex Watson 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.440 became a born again Christian and you know, supposedly turned 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:54.399 his life around, but they none of them would would 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.280 take responsibility. All these years later, they would all still 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.199 say that it was Manson was Manson. And from what 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.399 I understand, a big part of getting your parole approved 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.880 is to finally take full responsibility for what you had done, 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:12.320 and none of them would do it, and they were 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:17.080 all all denied over the years. Susan Atkins eventually died 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.119 of brain cancer in two thousand and nine, and then 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:24.960 just a few days ago, well, Leslie van Houghton in 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.159 September of last year was actually recommended for parole in 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.520 just a few days ago as of this recording, the 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:35.000 Governor of California, Jerry Brown, denied that, oh really, and said, 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:40.200 now she still isn't taking responsibility. And I think these 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.479 cases are just so loaded still that it would be 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.840 really tough even though parole was recommended for the governor 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:51.760 to approve that, you know, So we'll see, they're gonna 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.040 apparently they're going to keep pursuing that and I'm not 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.119 sure what the next steps are, but they're going to 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.800 fight that ruling by Jerry Brown and we'll see where 0:20:59.800 --> 0:20:59.960 that go. 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:07.040 So so I think then Patricia Creenwinkle is still in prison. 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.000 And I think now that Susan Atkins died, she is 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:14.000 the longest serving female inmate in California prison system. 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.600 Yeah. Oh, and we should say too that Squeaky From 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.520 tried to kill Nixon. That's where she gained later fame. 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:21.560 That was Ford. 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:24.720 Oh what I say, Nixon? Yeah, yeah, Gerald Ford. And 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:29.200 she's she's out of prison. She she lives in upstate 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.359 New York and I think the last I've seen of 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.920 her was someone took her picture in a Walmart parking 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:35.880 lot and she like smacked the camera down. 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:36.440 Yeah. 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.879 So she she's an interesting case. Squeaky From was out. 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:44.040 She wasn't indicted for any of the murders or any 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.560 role in the murders, but she was a number She 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:51.440 was the number two person to join the Manson family. Remember, Yeah, 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:56.480 and she still to this day refuses to denounce Manson. 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:00.520 It's still very much all about Charles Manson, and just 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.280 as much as she was before. And she went to 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.639 I guess I'm not sure what she was doing with 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.240 a gun and Gerald Ford, but she aimed a gun 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.439 at Jerald Ford. It was the gun wasn't loaded, but 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.200 it still had the effect of sending her to prison 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.520 for decades for an assassination attempt on the president. 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:20.760 Right. 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:22.560 I'm surprised she ever got out. 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:25.959 I am too, but she was paroled eventually, but she 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.359 still she's still never denounced Charles Manson. All of the 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:32.879 other ones denounced Manson. She's the only one who has it. 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:35.960 And supposedly one time she escaped in the eighties because 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.240 she heard that Charles Manson was sick, so she broke 0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:41.040 her way out of prison to try to get to him. 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:41.480 I guess. 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.800 Yeah, she was a Manson family member who tried to 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.960 kill the president and escaped from prison and they she 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:48.760 earned parole. 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:52.359 Yeah, hard to believe, but I think it's like you said, 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.119 I think those the case that Tate la Bianca murders 0:22:55.160 --> 0:23:00.479 were so politically charged and so loaded that the like 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:03.000 it's just didn't they just weren't going to get out 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.000