1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Chuck here back. I'm still in my spooky 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: mood from two weeks ago because I'm introducing this episode 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: from January thirty at twenty eighteen. It's a follow up 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: to two weeks ago about the Manson Family. It's called 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: The Manson Family Murders Part Two. What happens? Will Charlie 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: get away with it? 7 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: I doubt it. 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 3: I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 3: Rowland over there, and this is Stuff you Should Know 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 3: about the Manson Family Part two. 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: That's right if you're listening to this one first and 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: you're doing it wrong, so no need to recap. Just 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: go listen to part one and we'll pick up with 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: the Beatles Wide Album, which was a very big deal 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: in how this figure's in great great album. Obviously as 18 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: a Beatles fan, I know you're not super into them, 19 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: but I love the White Album arguably their weirdest album, 20 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: and it spoke to Charles Manson for sure, because he 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: really became pretty obsessed with it and diving into deconstructing 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: the album. It's a very dense long album anyway, and 23 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: there's a lot to it. So it's no wonder that 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: Charles Manson, with a head fallow acid, would think that 25 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: the Beatles are speaking to him. 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: Right, and he definitely did so. 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 3: He apparently had a history already of deconstructing Beatles lyrics, 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 3: but before he was deconstructing lyrics, so like Sergent Pepper's 29 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,919 Speaker 3: Lonely Hearts Club Band, which compared to the White Album, 30 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 3: is decidedly upbeat and positive, right, So while he was 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 3: in prison, he was super into the Beatles. When he 32 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: gets out, the Beatles released the White Album, he's already 33 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 3: obsessed with, but now he's on tons and tons of acid. 34 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 3: The White Album is kind of a downer compared to 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 3: Sergeant Pepper's and the fact that it's speaking to Charlis 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 3: Manson like really made things turn dark, it seems like, 37 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 3: as far as him and the people in his orbit 38 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 3: are concerned. 39 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're hanging out, they're lighting bonfires, they're doing drugs, 40 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: they're listening to Charles Manson stomp around with his tiny 41 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 1: feet in his redneck voice talking about Helter Skelter, which 42 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: is a great, great Beatles song and basically sort of 43 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: sort of renamed his vision for this race war and 44 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: impending apocalypse Helter Skelter. He kind of stole that from 45 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: the Beatles, as Bono would later go on. 46 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 3: To say, yeah, he stole from the Beatles, but he 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 3: also took it again as like a message that the 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 3: Beatles were sending him aside that he needed to prepare 49 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 3: his family for this because they were the chosen ones 50 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: basically who should weigh out the race riot in Death Valley. 51 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 3: So there's this whole idea that the all of the 52 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 3: Tate LaBianca murders took place to further this idea of 53 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 3: Helter Skelter to strike strike the match that would set 54 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 3: it off to get things going right. And this idea 55 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 3: apparently is the creation of the prosecutor in the case, 56 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 3: a guy named Vincent Bugliosi, who wrote a book called 57 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 3: Helter Skelter, like a six hundred page book. Basically this 58 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: the definitive true crime book on the Manson family and 59 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: the Manson family murders. And so most of the most 60 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: of what we said in Part one and most of 61 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 3: what everybody knows about the Manson family murders are come 62 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: through this lens that was established by Vincent Bugliosi, who 63 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: is the lead prosecutor in the case, was privy to 64 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: tons of information, to confessions, to interviews, under questioning, to 65 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 3: all this stuff. But he's the one who pieced together 66 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: the idea that the Manson family committed these murders to 67 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 3: start helter skelter. 68 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 2: That was his whole jam. 69 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean some of the Manson family corroborated, cooberated. 70 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: It's in there somewhere corroborated. That's a dark time with 71 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: that word corroborated, corroborated. I don't have to say it much, luckily, 72 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: because I'm not in a life of crime. No, but 73 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: some of them back that up and saying that, you know, 74 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: at one point he wanted them to throw a wallet 75 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: of a victim in a black neighborhood so that people 76 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: would think it was, you know, black panthers that did this. Yeah, 77 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 1: but it's some evidence that that was probably the case. 78 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 3: If you talk though to Manson and you or if 79 00:04:57,839 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 3: you've listened to some of the stuff he says. Some 80 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 3: of these ext nations because over the years people have said, 81 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 3: what about this part, what about this part? And have 82 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 3: basically presented him with every aspect of the whole case 83 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: against him. You know, a lot of the stuff he 84 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: has no explanation for nothing good. But that wallet is 85 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 3: a sterling example of where it becomes obvious that. 86 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: Wait, we're basically hearing. 87 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 3: One point of view about this, and we've never that's 88 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 3: all we've ever heard. Which if you're doing any kind 89 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: of reporting, which you and I are not, but if 90 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 3: you were inclined to do any kind of reporting, you 91 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 3: never want to just stick to just one source. And 92 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 3: with the Manson family case, it's basically one source, and 93 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 3: it's Vinsive Bugliosi, the prosecutor. But Manson explains it as 94 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: he told I think it was Linda Kasabian to just 95 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 3: get rid of that wallet, that he wasn't in a 96 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: predominantly black neighborhood, and that he told her to get 97 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: rid of the wallet because it was hot, and she 98 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 3: hid the wallet actually in the tank of a toilet 99 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 3: in a women's bathroom in a gas station, which is 100 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: hardly where you'd put it if you wanted a black 101 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 3: person defined it to use the credit cards inside and 102 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 3: to tip off the cops that a black person was 103 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 3: behind the Tate La Bianca murders. So when you when 104 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: you kind of dive into stuff like that, you see 105 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 3: that there actually are two competing explanations in some aspects 106 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 3: of this case. 107 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think Kasabian herself said that too, though, 108 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: didn't she. 109 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. 110 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: The thing is that if you are if you look 111 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 3: at Charles Manson, right, I know that's. 112 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: That's the thing is. 113 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 3: It's a terrible realization when you're like, actually, I'm wait 114 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 3: a minute, I understand what Charles Manson is saying. 115 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: Here. 116 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 3: The with with stuff like that when you look at 117 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 3: the testimony, These were people who were on trial for 118 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 3: murder who had every incentive to go along with the 119 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: lead prosecutor's theory that it was all Charles Manson's fault. 120 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: They could have maybe immunity. 121 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 3: They could have they could have charges dropped against them 122 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: that by saying yes, this is the case, or having 123 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: their testimony jibe with what Vincent Bugliosi's case was, they 124 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: had an incentive to do that. 125 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: Whether Charles Manson is right or correct or lying. 126 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 3: From an objective perspective, the people on Charlfer murder had 127 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 3: an incentive to agree with Vincent Bugliosi all right. 128 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: So the way they got caught was actually pretty interesting. 129 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: Unrelated to these murders. Police raided Spawn Ranch because it 130 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: was sort of became known that the people were living 131 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: there that were out on these creepy crawls doing these crimes, 132 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: and so that's why they were originally fingered, as they 133 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: say in the biz. And they went there and they 134 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: rated Spawn Ranch and a lot of the family were 135 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: arrested at that time for like car theft and burglary 136 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: and stuff. They were released on its technicality and then 137 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: went to Death Valley to that weird ranch. If you 138 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: ever been to Death Valley, it's not a place you 139 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: want to hang out. No, it's not, especially in the summertime. 140 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: Is that where Joshua Tree is? No, that's it Joshua Tree, 141 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: But that's not in Death Valley. 142 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: No, those are two different places. 143 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: But is it close by? There is the same type 144 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 2: of terrain kind of thing. 145 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I've been to both. 146 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: Are they similar? 147 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: Well, I mean Joshua Tree is the desert for sure, 148 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: but it is very lovely. Like I don't remember much 149 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: about Death Valley that was. I think it was not 150 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: very hospitable for me. 151 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: It's appropriately named. 152 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so okay, And of course now people 153 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: are going to say Death Valley's the best, you know 154 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: what you're talking about, heavy sweater, so they go to 155 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: Death Valley. Then there were a bunch of raids at 156 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: the Death Valley camp between October tenth and twelfth of 157 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, and eventually they ended up rounding up 158 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: the people responsible for these murders without knowing that they 159 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: were responsible for these murders, so they were in jail 160 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: kind of luckily already in jail when they sort of 161 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 1: decided they could pin, will not pin like legitimately pin 162 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: these murders on these people. 163 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 3: So this being the second time, there's something that I've 164 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: ran across in research, Chuck that it never gets talked about, 165 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 3: but is I think really significant. At both of those raids, 166 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 3: the Spawn Ranch raid and the Death Valley rate, the 167 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:38,359 Speaker 3: state took children from this, Like there were kids, babies, toddlers, 168 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: little kids running around growing up like at the Spawn 169 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 3: Ranch end at the Barker Ranch, which is extraordinarily troubling, 170 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: and some of them have been are thought to have 171 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 3: possibly been Charles Manson's kids, like he may have had. 172 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 3: There's just so much free love going on, and so 173 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 3: many pregnancies that were the results was free love. It 174 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: was difficult to say whose kid was whose, but it's 175 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 3: they think that it's possible at least one or two 176 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: of those kids was Charles Manson's kids, and they were 177 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 3: taken by the state and later adopted by people. But 178 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 3: it's like, you know, it's one thing to think of 179 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: a bunch of hippies just out in the desert taking acid, 180 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 3: just being idiots, you know, and then eventually turning dark 181 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 3: and murderous. But the idea that there were kids around 182 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 3: at any part of this is really I find it 183 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 3: very troubling. 184 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I mean, all those cults 185 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: had kids roaming around. They just weren't murderous cults, you know. 186 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: Yep. 187 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: So Susan Atkins, for her part, she agreed to testify 188 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 1: initially against Charles Manson to avoid the death sentence, which 189 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: for a few years more was still a thing in California. 190 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: I think in nineteen seventy two they reversed that, but 191 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: at the time the death sentence was a threat at 192 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: the time of the crimes, so she had a grand 193 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: jury testimony. It basically led to Manson being arranged for 194 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,359 Speaker 1: these murders. In December sixty nine, she recanted that testimony 195 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: and the deal was revoked by the prosecutors. It was 196 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: kind of too late at that point. Linda Kasabian, who 197 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: you might remember was I thinks that getaway driver and 198 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: then the one who would not knock on the right 199 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: apartment door to kill the actor, so she'd actually didn't 200 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: commit any murders at all, was not in any of 201 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: the houses. She was granted immunity for testifying, and I 202 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: think she was the only one granted immunity. 203 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: Right, although I think, yeah, they just took the death 204 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 3: penalty off, like you said, for Susan Atkins. And I 205 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 3: don't know if you said this or not, but Susan 206 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 3: Atkins is the reason the case broke open eventually, when 207 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 3: they'd rounded up all of the Manson family and had 208 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 3: him in jail for the death Valley raids for you know, 209 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: burglary and theft and stuff like that. The way that 210 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: they found out that the Manson family was responsible for 211 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 3: the Tate LaBianca murders was Susan Atkins bragging about it 212 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: and a couple of her cell mates going and telling 213 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 3: the cops and that's originally how the case began against 214 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: the Manson family. That's how the authorities originally found out 215 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: big mouth. 216 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess so. 217 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: All right, so let's take a break and we'll come 218 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: back and talk a little bit about one of the weirdest, 219 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: most sensational trials in American history right after this. 220 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: All right, Chuck, So, on December eleventh, nineteen sixty nine, 221 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 3: Charles Manson, who the public had just been acquainted with, 222 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 3: I think just in the last few months, was finally 223 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 3: arraigned for the murders of the Tate Labiyonca murders. And 224 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 3: I think that did they get him for his role 225 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: in the Hyndman murder at. 226 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: That point, I'm not actually sure about that. 227 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 3: Definitely the Tate Labyonca murders, which was plenty enough. 228 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: And he. 229 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 3: It's it's it's kind of an understatement to say that 230 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 3: he did not offer any public contrition. 231 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: He actually went the opposite way. 232 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, he was well. The whole trial was chaos, 233 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: and he he incited chaos at every turn to make 234 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: it just a circus and was quite successful at doing so. 235 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: Initially wanted to represent himself and did for a little 236 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: while but the judge denied that, Judge William Keane and said, 237 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: you have to work with a lawyer because of the 238 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: fact that you're just making this into a circus. Basically, 239 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: we need this to stay on track. And he actually 240 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: was successful, though Manson was getting Judge Keene oustered as 241 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: judge and Judge Charles Older eventually would oversee the trial. 242 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I read a twenty thirteen interview with Manson, 243 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: and the thing that seemed to still get him the 244 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 3: most was that he was denied the ability to represent 245 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 3: himself in court, like he felt like he never got 246 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 3: to have his saying court and that was that was 247 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: the thing that got him more than anything else, not 248 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 3: being locked up for his whole life or anything like that. 249 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 3: It was that he didn't get to open his big 250 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 3: mouth in court as much as he wanted to. 251 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: So I guess we could go over some of these 252 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: things that happened in court that led to this circus atmosphere. 253 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 3: And by the way, if you want to see it yourself, 254 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 3: there's a pretty good dramatic recreation in the movie Helter 255 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 3: Skelter that was based on Mugliosi's book. 256 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing better than dramatic recreations. Yeah, lots of yelly 257 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: and screaming, lots of shouting and cursing, lots of disrespect 258 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: to the judge and the American flag. They threw a 259 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: copy of the Constitution in the garbage. At one point, 260 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: very famously, Charles Manson carved an X into his forehead, 261 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: which later became a swastika, saying that he was exed 262 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: out of the world. And then his family members would 263 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: do the same, and they would shave their heads and 264 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: generally just try and disrupt things at every turn. 265 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,119 Speaker 3: Right, And they did. I mean, they were quite successful. 266 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: But the trial kept going on and on, right, I 267 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 3: think it was. It went on for a couple of years, 268 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 3: based on news articles I was reading about it. So 269 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 3: it turns out, though that Richard Nixon supposedly had the 270 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 3: most disruptive effect on the trial by saying while the 271 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: trial was going on, quote, here's a man who was 272 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 3: guilty directly or indirectly of eight murders without reason. He 273 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 3: was the sitting US president commenting saying that this guy 274 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: was guilty of a trial that was going on, which is, 275 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 3: you just don't do that. It doesn't matter what the 276 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: case is, not for any compassion for Charles Manson or 277 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 3: anything like that. But just because even on the other side, 278 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 3: you could have blown the case and and he legitimately 279 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 3: could have created a mistrial there. Yeah, just because the 280 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: President said something and everyone reported on it. 281 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that happening today. 282 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: I totally can't. 283 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: It was a very Trumpian move. So we talked. I 284 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: think we covered the helter Skelter thing enough, don't you. 285 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 2: We did. 286 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: But I think there's a there's a big thing that 287 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 3: all this hinges on. Is that there the prosecution said, 288 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: and you said earlier you even had a quote from 289 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 3: Tex Watson that Charles Manson told him to go and 290 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: just destroy the people in that house, gruesome as you can. 291 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: And the prosecution said that that Charles Manson was trying 292 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: to spark the Helter Skelter race war that he believed 293 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 3: was going to happen. Manson's whole thing was this here, 294 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 3: This is Charles manson since explanation for what happened and 295 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 3: why he's innocent. He said, Yeah, I believed in Helter Skelter. Yes, 296 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 3: I believe there's a race war coming. I talked about 297 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: it at night around bombfires with everybody on acid. I 298 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: also talked about death of the ego and all sorts 299 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 3: of other stuff. And if you ask me, what happened 300 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 3: was my friends just took things and went it, took 301 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 3: it too literally and went too far, and that it 302 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: all hinged on this Bobby Bousselay thing, right, And even 303 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 3: before that, there lots of Papa thing. So Tex Watson 304 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 3: rips off Bernard, lots of Papa Crow and he's got 305 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 3: a problem with lots of Papa who wants to kill 306 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 3: him now, and Manson goes over there to help Tex 307 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 3: Watson solve this problem by shooting, shooting lots of Papa. 308 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 3: So now as far as Manson and Text are concerned, 309 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 3: Tex owes Watson a debt, any kind of debt, well 310 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 3: Manson's or Text owns Manson a debt. Now, Manson's friend 311 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 3: Bobby Bousilla, who is one of his tightest family members, 312 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 3: gets arrested for murder, the murder of Gary Hinman, and 313 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 3: Manson says, well, you know, I mean you should do 314 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 3: something to help my brother Bobby Bousola, And you know, 315 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: Tex says, well what should I do? And apparently Manson 316 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 3: flew off the handle and said, don't ask me what 317 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 3: you should do, you know what you should do. 318 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: And that was that. 319 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: And the next thing, Manson knows Watson and cren Winkle 320 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 3: and Atkins are over at the at the Tate residence, 321 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 3: carving up Sharon Tate and the rest of the people 322 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 3: in the house. He didn't say anything about going to 323 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 3: kill anybody. He didn't direct him anywhere, he didn't say 324 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 3: anything like that. He just said they took what all 325 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: the other stuff that he'd said too far, and that 326 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 3: really what they were doing was trying to cover up 327 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 3: cover for Bobby Boussola to get him out of prison. 328 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 3: That's Manson's explanation for the whole thing. 329 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and for the part well, I guess we 330 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,239 Speaker 1: should go ahead and say that that all of these 331 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: people went to prison, and Susan Atkins, Patricia Crenwinkle, Leslie 332 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: Van Houghton, they all were, you know, still so under 333 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: his spell that they were fully ready and did take 334 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: the blame for these killings. But when it comes to parole, 335 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: it was in January nineteen seventy one that they were 336 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: all convicted on all accounts murder conspiracy to commit murder. 337 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: But years later, as parole hearings would come up for 338 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: all these women and Tex Watson and Manson himself the 339 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: reason why they were continually denied, even like Tex Watson 340 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: became a born again Christian and you know, supposedly turned 341 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: his life around, but they none of them would would 342 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: take responsibility. All these years later, they would all still 343 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: say that it was Manson was Manson. And from what 344 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: I understand, a big part of getting your parole approved 345 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: is to finally take full responsibility for what you had done, 346 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: and none of them would do it, and they were 347 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: all all denied over the years. Susan Atkins eventually died 348 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: of brain cancer in two thousand and nine, and then 349 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: just a few days ago, well, Leslie van Houghton in 350 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: September of last year was actually recommended for parole in 351 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: just a few days ago as of this recording, the 352 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: Governor of California, Jerry Brown, denied that, oh really, and said, 353 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: now she still isn't taking responsibility. And I think these 354 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 1: cases are just so loaded still that it would be 355 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: really tough even though parole was recommended for the governor 356 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: to approve that, you know, So we'll see, they're gonna 357 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: apparently they're going to keep pursuing that and I'm not 358 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: sure what the next steps are, but they're going to 359 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: fight that ruling by Jerry Brown and we'll see where 360 00:20:59,800 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: that go. 361 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 3: So so I think then Patricia Creenwinkle is still in prison. 362 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 3: And I think now that Susan Atkins died, she is 363 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 3: the longest serving female inmate in California prison system. 364 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, and we should say too that Squeaky From 365 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: tried to kill Nixon. That's where she gained later fame. 366 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 2: That was Ford. 367 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: Oh what I say, Nixon? Yeah, yeah, Gerald Ford. And 368 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: she's she's out of prison. She she lives in upstate 369 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: New York and I think the last I've seen of 370 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: her was someone took her picture in a Walmart parking 371 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: lot and she like smacked the camera down. 372 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 373 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 3: So she she's an interesting case. Squeaky From was out. 374 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 3: She wasn't indicted for any of the murders or any 375 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 3: role in the murders, but she was a number She 376 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 3: was the number two person to join the Manson family. Remember, Yeah, 377 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 3: and she still to this day refuses to denounce Manson. 378 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: It's still very much all about Charles Manson, and just 379 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 3: as much as she was before. And she went to 380 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 3: I guess I'm not sure what she was doing with 381 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 3: a gun and Gerald Ford, but she aimed a gun 382 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 3: at Jerald Ford. It was the gun wasn't loaded, but 383 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 3: it still had the effect of sending her to prison 384 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 3: for decades for an assassination attempt on the president. 385 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: Right. 386 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm surprised she ever got out. 387 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,959 Speaker 3: I am too, but she was paroled eventually, but she 388 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 3: still she's still never denounced Charles Manson. All of the 389 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: other ones denounced Manson. She's the only one who has it. 390 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 3: And supposedly one time she escaped in the eighties because 391 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 3: she heard that Charles Manson was sick, so she broke 392 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 3: her way out of prison to try to get to him. 393 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: I guess. 394 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, she was a Manson family member who tried to 395 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: kill the president and escaped from prison and they she 396 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: earned parole. 397 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, hard to believe, but I think it's like you said, 398 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 3: I think those the case that Tate la Bianca murders 399 00:22:55,160 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 3: were so politically charged and so loaded that the like 400 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 3: it's just didn't they just weren't going to get out 401 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 3: the people who actually committed the murders. 402 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Manson had an interesting time in prison too. 403 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: He had a guy trying and kill him by lighting 404 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: him on fire at one point in like I think 405 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: like twenty percent of his body was badly burned. And 406 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: he had a string of relationships with people from penpals, 407 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: which will kind of cover at the end to a 408 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: woman that he did he actually marry that woman. 409 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: I don't know. 410 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 3: She was in that twenty thirteen article that I was reading, 411 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 3: and I don't know if they got married. 412 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: Man, we should do I don't know what we would 413 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: call it, but an episode on generally women who who 414 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: marry serial killers. 415 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 3: We totally should in prison, Let's do that, But first, 416 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 3: let's take a break. 417 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 2: How about that. 418 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. 419 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, Chuck, we're back. We're talking about So Manson's 420 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 3: in prison for a while there. This is just mind 421 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 3: blowing to me. For a good decade. He enjoyed, Actually, 422 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,959 Speaker 3: more than that, he enjoyed the limelight. He could get 423 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 3: interviewed by huge names like you said, Diane Sawyer, Charlie Rose, 424 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 3: Heeraldo Rivera very famously did an interview with Charles Manson 425 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 3: where apparently Manson you were saying how much poise Diane 426 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 3: Sawyer showed during her interview. 427 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: Supposedly Manson just owned Heraldo during that interview. 428 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 3: I just totally took control of the whole thing. But 429 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 3: the these were things that were televised like on national 430 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 3: National news, and these these people were giving these networks 431 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 3: were giving Charles Manson a platform to talk about himself, 432 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 3: to talk about his philosophy, to show the world how 433 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 3: crazy he was. Oh yes, to keep him in the public, 434 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: in the public eye and the public mind. Until finally 435 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 3: after the Diane Sawyer interview there, they not only pulled 436 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 3: the plug on his interviews, they said for there, you 437 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 3: couldn't televise interviews with any inmates from in California because 438 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 3: of Charles Manson basically. So it's just really strange to me, 439 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: especially these days looking back, that he had a platform 440 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 3: for so long to stay that boogeyman. You know that 441 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 3: that just scared the be Jesus out of America. 442 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think those last like whatever, like twenty three, 443 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: twenty five years in prison with no limelight was that 444 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: had to have been like the darkest time of his 445 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: life because you know, he wanted he clearly wanted to 446 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: be a singing star, and in a weird way, he 447 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: ended up kind of getting what he wanted because some 448 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: of his music ended up being recorded by you know, 449 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: the Guns and Roses and the Lemonheads, and he became 450 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: this kind of weird u cult figure and not as 451 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: in Jim James cult oh like movie My Morning Jacket 452 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: Jim Jones, but like, yeah, like a cult figure and 453 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: revered by some people weirdly. It just is so strange 454 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: that people would look at him that way, you know. 455 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: So one person who revered him later on in life 456 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 3: was a woman I believe he named Star, And she 457 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: moved from her parents' house in Mississippi out to California 458 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 3: to be just down the street from where Manson was held. 459 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 3: And this is she was the woman who was posed 460 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 3: to marry him, and she. 461 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 2: Was a follower of his. 462 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 3: She said she didn't care anything about nineteen sixty nine. 463 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 3: He so Manson later in life became really interested in 464 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 3: preserving the environment. He came up with a thing called 465 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 3: Atwa air trees water. 466 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: I can't remember the last air. 467 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 3: Yeah air again, that would be awaa right. 468 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: So she became very interested in him. 469 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 3: For his ecological stance, right, And she moved out to 470 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 3: be close to him and would visit him on weekends 471 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 3: and they became very close, and I guess to kind 472 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 3: of demonstrate to the world that he still had it. 473 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 2: I still got it world, he. 474 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 3: Asked her to carve an X in her forehead and 475 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 3: she did so. She was also big time into collecting 476 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: and selling Manson memorabilia, and Ed points out in this article. 477 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 3: I think he's referring to her that the whole marriage 478 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 3: thing may have been a ploy to get at Manson memorabilia, 479 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: but I don't believe that's the case at all. So 480 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 3: she actually ran a website and still does called mansondirect 481 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,719 Speaker 3: dot com, and it's like up to date, So I 482 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 3: think she had not abandoned him after some big, big 483 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 3: score with memorabilia like she seems to have been the 484 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 3: real deal follower, like an early Manson family girl reincarnated. 485 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: Huh. Weird. So there were a bunch of other I 486 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: saw an article whether at least ten other weird deaths 487 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: related to the Manson family that some people say could 488 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: have been them or maybe not looked into a few 489 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: of them. That was his original or at least this 490 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: guy was originally going to represent Manson is an attorney 491 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: named Ron Hughes. He ended up representing Think Leslie van Houghton. Yeah, 492 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: but she he disappeared while on a There was a 493 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: ten day recess in the trial. So he goes camping 494 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: with another couple and the couple left and he's like, 495 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stay on here in the woods. He was 496 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: never seen again, so that was a little weird. They 497 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: never found a body or anything. 498 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 3: I don't think it wasn't they even though he was 499 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 3: one of their defense attorneys. They had a huge grudge 500 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 3: against him because, like you said earlier, Van Houghton, Krenwinkle, 501 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 3: and Atkins were all or not Atkins, I can't remember 502 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 3: who the third one was. We're all going to incriminate themselves. 503 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 3: So as Leslie Van Houghton's defense attorney, he said, I'm 504 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 3: not he rested after the prosecution wrested. He never presented 505 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,479 Speaker 3: a defense, Yeah, because he knew that they were going 506 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 3: to incriminate themselves and he refused to take part in it. 507 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 3: So they had a grudge against him. 508 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: So it's possible. 509 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: Possibly there was a spawn ranch worker that disappeared and 510 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: he they were actually convicted. Some other family members of 511 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: his murdered. His name was Shorty Shae Donald. Shorty say, 512 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: there was this one dude Joel Pew who was married 513 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: to Sandra Good who was a member, and he he 514 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: was found dead in his London hotel. He had It 515 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: was ruled a suicide, but his wrist had been slashed 516 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: and his throat was slashed twice and there was something 517 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: written in blood on the mirror that was erased. You know, 518 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,959 Speaker 1: it was one of these shoddy jobs I think by 519 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: the London cops. But some say it said Jack and Jill. 520 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: Other people say they don't remember what it said. But 521 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: that was definitely one of those that was like, hmm, 522 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: could he have been killed? 523 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: Right? 524 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: And Manson family member, Yeah, well the list goes on. 525 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 3: One of those Manson family members who was convicted of 526 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 3: killing Shorty Shay had made a couple of trips to 527 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 3: the UK while Joel Pugh was there. So there's even 528 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 3: there's even more. There's it's definitely weird that he died 529 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 3: like that. Yeah, you know, having your throat slashed in 530 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 3: a London hotel, it's weird no matter what. 531 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: And so like we said, you know, you said at 532 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: the beginning, it was definitely the end of the peace 533 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: love movement and sort of put a pin on the 534 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: what people thought about what a lot of people thought 535 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: about the counterculture, and like this is these are the hippies. 536 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: They're not peace and love. They can murder people on drugs, 537 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: and this is what acid can do to you. So 538 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: that was mainstream media. You had other alternative media or 539 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: places like Rolling Stone that was still a pretty young 540 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: magazine that would would not say things like that, would 541 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: not kind of buy into the mainstream media portrayal, but 542 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: it captured and still captures a lot of people's imagination. 543 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: You know, it was a part of the zeitgeist, but 544 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: it just endured for decades after, you know for sure. 545 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 3: And Rolling Stone actually did a tremendous amount of reporting 546 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 3: on Charles Manson that was really good at the time. 547 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 3: That twenty thirteen article I read was really good. That 548 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 3: was from Rolling Stone. You can get into a Manson 549 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 3: rabbit hole just going onto Rolling Stone's website. 550 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: And that. 551 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 3: The twenty thirteen article I read chuck that the author, 552 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 3: I think he kind of summed up Charles Manson better 553 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 3: than I've seen it anywhere else. But he said this, 554 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 3: he said, sometimes he can be so transparent, which makes 555 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 3: him look like nothing more than a goofy klutzy small 556 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 3: timer who made some bad decisions that led to more 557 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 3: bad decisions that led to murder, and who then got 558 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 3: caught up in an ambitious DA's dream about a mastermind 559 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 3: saying golly with demonic visions of world domination. Some crook, 560 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 3: some outlaw, some gangster, some desperado, probably the worst ever, but. 561 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: In the end a tiny redneck. 562 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: I mean that definitely falls in there too. 563 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. So as far as these kids go, it's kind 564 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: of hard to get good information because I read a 565 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: bunch of different things. But from what I can tell, 566 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: he had three sons, for sure. Yeah, one with Candy 567 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: Stevens named Charles Luther Manson, one with Mary Brunner named 568 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: Valentine or Valentine Michael Manson. Those two guys are impossible 569 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: to find anything on. I'm sure they have probably changed 570 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: their names. There was a Charles Manson Junior who killed 571 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: himself in the I think early nineties. 572 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, ninety three. 573 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: And then there's this dude. Did you see this Matthew 574 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: Roberts guy. 575 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 2: I ran across his name, but I don't know anything 576 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 2: about him. 577 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: Well, he claims too that his mother said, you know what, 578 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: Charles Manson was your dad? We had sex in an 579 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: orgy in samon Go in the late sixties, and I 580 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: believe that he is probably your father, although given that 581 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: it's an orgy, you know, those things go. 582 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 3: So that is the last does the last thing you 583 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,320 Speaker 3: ever want to hear your mom tell you that whole story. Yeah, 584 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 3: the whole story from beginning to end. It's just bad 585 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 3: news for you, the kid. 586 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so just look this guy up. And if he 587 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: doesn't look like Charles Manson incarnate, then I don't know 588 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: what to say. But the dude looks exactly like him. 589 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: Here's the deal though, As he ended up, he tried 590 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,479 Speaker 1: to get DNA from the prison, tried to smuggle it out, 591 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: but it got contaminated, the test didn't work. He ended 592 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: up taking a DNA test to match with who we 593 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: know was Charles manson junior son, a dude named Jason Freeman, 594 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: who was you know, the grandson of Charles Manson, and 595 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: there was no match there. But Matthew Roberts says, well, 596 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: that doesn't prove anything, because we ever see in the 597 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: DNA match from Freeman and Manson. See he's still claiming 598 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: to be his son, and I mean, the guy looks 599 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: so much like him. It's a little creepy, So it's 600 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: hard to not say, you know, why would his mom 601 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: make up the story? The guy happens to look just 602 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: like him, but who knows. And in the end, his 603 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: will and supposedly his estate is worth money. I don't 604 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: know how much, but they say, you know, there could 605 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: be a lot of dough there. And right now there's 606 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: a legal battle going on between Jason Freeman, who is 607 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: the grandson, and then this pen pal that Manson had 608 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: for like decades named Michael Channels, who he scribbled out 609 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 1: a will to this guy. And he's saying, hey, look, 610 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: he wrote this will. He wants me to have this money. 611 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: Jason Freeman saying it's mine. For their part, they're both 612 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: saying what they want to do. His body's on ice 613 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: still is they want to they both want to scatter 614 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: his ashes just where no one knows. So there it 615 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: doesn't become like some weird trying. Yeah, but uh, the 616 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: ongoing legal battle for his will, we'll see what happens there. 617 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 3: So and that Star lady weighed in saying if anybody 618 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 3: who says he has a will is lying, that he 619 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 3: purposefully said that he was not going to leave a will, right, 620 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,760 Speaker 3: But it would just it would be just like Charles 621 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 3: Manson to scribble off a will, deny that he ever 622 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 3: did it, and just leave a big mess behind afterwards, 623 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 3: you know, yeah, just one more mess for everybody to 624 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:24,439 Speaker 3: sort out. 625 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: So strange, so strange, and said absolutely. 626 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: In the sixties there was some I know he talked 627 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: about the uh god, who is that one cult that 628 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: saw the documentary with Father Zod or whatever? Hm m 629 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: I man, that was a crazy documentary. I mean, just 630 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: that whole time was so so strange. 631 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 2: It really was. 632 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 3: Is people looking for something to belong to or something 633 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 3: some meaning that wasn't their parents meaning, you know, yeah, yeah, 634 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 3: well all right, Chuck, they found it. By the way 635 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 3: they found it. They all became stockbrokers in the eighties. 636 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 3: If you want to know more about the Manson family, well, 637 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 3: like I said, there's rabbit holes all over the internet. 638 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 3: And in the meantime, you can also read this great 639 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 3: article by EDG. Grabanowski by typing the words Manson family 640 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 3: and the search bar at house Stuff Works. And like 641 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 3: I said, it'll bring up this great Grabster article. And 642 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 3: while I said that it's time for listening now, I'm. 643 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: Gonna call this Confederate monuments, well not Confederate monuments, but 644 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: removal of monuments follow up. 645 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 2: Nice. 646 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: So we got a lot of great email about that podcast. 647 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: I don't know how many of those you read, but 648 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: you know, people roundly said we did a good, fair 649 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: take on this tricky subject. 650 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 2: Yeah I saw that too, which always. 651 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: Makes me feel good and a shout out. This is 652 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: not from her, but one of the people who wrote 653 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: in was an artist named Kara Kara Walker who just 654 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: look up her work. She is amazing. She's I think 655 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: the second youngest person ever received a MacArthur Genius Grant 656 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: and she does He's great. She does a lot of 657 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: stuff and a lot of mediums. But what she's known 658 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: for I think of these room sized silhouette like black 659 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: cutout silhouettes depicting statements on race and gender and civil rights. 660 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: And she's just like a rock star in the New 661 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: York arts scene. And she went to my high school. 662 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeah I saw that. 663 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: Did not know that. She introduced herself. She graduated two 664 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: years ahead of me at Ridan, So I wrote back 665 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: to her and just told her how proud I was 666 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: to be an alum. 667 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 2: Nice. 668 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: So, anyway, go check out Carl Walker's work. That's a mouthful, 669 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: it is, but this is from someone else. Hey, guys, 670 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: thanks so much for the podcast. I'm a big fan, 671 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: especially enjoyed the Public Monument episode. I'm writing to clarify 672 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: small point about the Georgia state flag that Chuck discussed 673 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: in that episode. I got this thing wrong, by the way. 674 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 1: You pointed out that Georgia, like some other former Confederate states, 675 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: included the familiar Confederate battle flag with the ex pattern 676 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: in its state flag from fifty six to two thousand 677 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: and one. However, that flag is not the Stars and Bars. 678 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: The Stars and Bars was the official national flag of 679 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: the Confederacy and is the flag after which the current 680 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: Georgia flag is patterned. It turns out that the flag 681 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: Georgia use till nineteen fifty six was modeled after the 682 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: national Confederate flag, and the state switched to the Confederate 683 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: battle flag in fifty six. In other words, while the 684 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: most familiar Confederate flag was removed in two thousand and one, 685 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: it was replaced with another one. 686 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: That's so Georgia. 687 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: I thought we did the right thing. No, so I 688 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,839 Speaker 1: thought you guys wuld be interested. By the way, Mississippi 689 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: is the only state that still uses the Confederate battle 690 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: flag and its official state flag. Keep up the great work. 691 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: And I don't have a name on this one. 692 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 3: Well, thanks a lot, I don't have a name on 693 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 3: this one. That was some good info. We appreciate that. 694 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 3: And Chuck, that was big of you to say, Hey, 695 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 3: I got it wrong, I got it wrong. 696 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 2: That's all right, man, that's all right. 697 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 3: If you want to write in to tell us we 698 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 3: got something wrong, lay it on us. 699 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 2: That's fine. You can send us all including Jerry an. 700 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 3: Email to Stuff podcast at HowStuffWorks dot com and has 701 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 3: always joined us at our home on the web. Stuff 702 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 3: Youshould Know dot com. 703 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 704 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 705 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.