WEBVTT - Sparks Fly -- Are Lithium-Ion Batteries Safe? 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.480 Energy storage is important for the continued rollout of clean energy. However, 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:08.000 a series of twenty nine fires at battery storage facilities 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:12.479 in South Korea since just have called their safety into question. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.320 The research note behind today's episode is titled Ensuring Safe 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.599 Use of Lithium Ion Batteries and it can be found 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.079 at BENF dot com, at b NF go on the 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.640 Bloomberg terminal, or via the b NF app. Just as 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.320 a quick reminder, BENNF does not provide investment or strategy advice, 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:30.280 and we have a complete disclaimer at the end of 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:32.680 the show. I am Dana Perkins, and you're listening to 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.600 Bloomberg Switched on the ben EF podcast. I'm joined today 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.920 by Yi Sine and she leads b NFS researched on 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:44.280 decentralized energy, alongside James Frith, who leads our research on 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:54.639 energy storage. Let's hear from our guests. Yea YOI thank 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.040 you for joining us today. Thank you for having me 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.840 and James, thank you for being on Switched on Hi Data, 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.360 Thank for having me. So let's start at the very 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.920 beginning here. What inspired you guys are actually got you 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.800 guys to think that this was an important thing? To 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.280 start researching and looking at now, which is a lot 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:16.600 of the battery fires for a stationary storage in South Korea. Yeah, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:18.920 I can take that just to kick off and give 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:23.480 some context. The energy storage market is clearly growing quite rapidly. 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.840 In particular, Korea has been a leading market in terms 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.160 of total deployment in the world over the past two 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.720 to three years. This year is probably going to fall 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.760 off the ranks. But in that context, the market growing 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:40.360 so rapidly also means that there is I suppose some 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:45.640 slowness with regards to safety regulation or to safety certification 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:48.040 that has to kind of keep up with the place 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.840 of development of the market, and in Korea in particular, 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.680 that that has been an issue because we've seen multiple 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.480 fires by this year. UM and in May we actually 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:01.720 walk Korea experience the twenty nine better fire incidents, which 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.480 is quite alarming. So twenty nine different fires in different 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:09.000 installations in Korea. UM. So that really comes put into 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.240 question the development of the industry and what has to 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.239 be done to ensure that we're deploying safe energy storage systems. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.480 And this is twenty nine fires across you said two years. Yes, 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.720 since seen at least in Korea, we've seen that these 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:28.160 incidents happening, and I guess in context, what we saw 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.680 was a market that really boomed at the back of 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.320 really generous subsidies in the market, which meant that a 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.600 lot of like generally and experienced developers or integrators were 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.600 were essentially rushing to to build out a lot of 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.840 battery projects in the country, which also led to kind 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:49.040 of rush on the edges to actually deploy these systems. UM. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.799 And at the back of that, of course, we've we've 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.360 ended up seeing a sad a sad outcome around around 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.359 the battery fires. So we're gonna be speaking specifically about 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:01.520 South Koreatia today. I mean, I guess it's more of 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.680 a case study. But have there been fires elsewhere that 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.960 are notable that provide context as well. Yeah, So I 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.040 think the reason why, in particular, I guess at the 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:17.720 twenty five at twenty nine incidents, this becomes particularly relevant. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:21.919 But I think what's more relevant contemporarily is Arizona Public 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.000 Service or utility in Arizona here in the US, they 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:29.760 released a reports regarding a battery fire that they had 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:34.079 last year in April and UM and the results of that, 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.320 I think we're quite um, we're quite helpful for us 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:42.200 to understand the context of safety and certifications, not just 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.960 in Korea, but elsewhere as well. So that's kind of 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.600 why we wanted to bring that conversation here today. I 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.520 think one thing to kind of just jump in and 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:52.400 add as well is that, um, you know, I think 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.080 I think we kind of are talking about battery fires 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.680 focusing on Korea. Obviously there's the a p S one 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.560 Energy had a battery fire one of the islet testing 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.760 facilities as well, and it gets a lot of well 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.200 in the battery community and the en George community, it 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.800 gets a lot of attention. But actually the twenty nine 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.400 five that we're talking about in Korea effect you know, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.279 roughly about five percent of the total deployed capacity. So 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.599 although you know, it's a lot of attention, it's actually 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:23.120 a readatively small amount of kind of deployed projects or affected. 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:25.320 So James and this brings us to a good point 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.520 for us to try and understand why do we think 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.080 that these fires are happening. I mean, even within that 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.040 five percent, ideally they're very difficult to put out and 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:36.720 people really don't want these to be happening. So I 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.200 suppose diagnosing what could be the issue is probably step one. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.360 Can you provide us with some insight there? Yes, certainly, 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.680 And I guess this is the kind of the million 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.720 dollar question. And I guess I kind of literally mean 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.920 that because there's obviously, you know, huge kind of insurance 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:58.800 liabilities associated with these fires, um and determining you know, 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.680 what the causes actually influences you know, who whose insurance 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.520 or who is liable for you know, the project catching 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.120 fire in the kind of any you know, resulting costs 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.720 that the recurring products. And I think there's kind of 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.400 I suppose a couple of the things to look at here. 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:18.839 There obviously reports off the back of the fires and Korea, 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.760 but as the AO mentioned, there was recently, you know, 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.960 the the APS fire report that was published about a 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.960 month or so ago, which was quite enlightening, should we say, 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.200 in the kind of cause of the fire. But just 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:33.760 starting with the Korean fires, obviously, you know the twenty 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.200 nine fires there, there's a lot of work was done 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.760 on that to try and understand, you know, what caused them. 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.640 And while that work was going on, you know, there 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.160 were certain safety measures put in place by the you know, 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.279 the authorities in Korea to try and prevent this from happening. 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.560 You know, one part of that was limiting the capacity 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.080 of the storage systems that could be used. About the 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.040 total capacity. It is actually just as they lifted those 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.320 regulations that we had the fire earlier this year in May, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.560 so that's quite interesting to see. But off the back 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.400 of the kind of fires in Korea, there's a report 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.120 that came out and identified I guess four key areas 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.760 that could be behind these fires, and just to kind 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:21.560 of run through them them quite quickly and then I 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:23.800 can dive into a bit more detail. The first thing 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:28.720 that they identified was exposure to humidity. Obviously, moisture and 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.080 electronics don't mix that well. Moisture in the inside of 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.560 batteries mixed even worse. So that's the first thing that 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.160 they identified. The next thing would then be kind of 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:43.599 defectory defective battery cells or modules kind of building on 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.440 the detector cell. I guess, you know, they said that 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.520 potentially there could have been external damage caused to the 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.280 either the system or the cells and modules during construction. 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.240 And finally, you know, it's possible that the battery management 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:02.600 system was faulty and didn't control the systems within the 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.080 kind of parameters that they were meant to. So this 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.400 was kind of what was identified in the Korean fire incidents. 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.600 And actually that kind of covers the full value chain 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.720 from cell manufacturer down to kind of integrator and indeed 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:21.680 battery operator. So there's a range of different areas to 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:23.760 look at there, and also you know, off the back 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.800 of that different recommendations on how you could prevent this 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.240 from happening again, you know, leading on from the defective 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.920 battery cell, and this is what a lot of people 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.200 suspected could be behind it, because you know, although there 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.320 is a huge amount of safety considerations that go into 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:45.440 designing batteries and building the cells themselves and modules are 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.960 packed and everything else, you know, you essentially have a 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.120 lot of energy contained within earty in mind battery and 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.440 if something goes wrong with that battery, it can it 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:56.520 can kind of get out of hand pretty quickly. Could 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.960 you explain really quickly what out of hand means? Because 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.280 I know that you know, for everybody listening, I know 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.200 they're very difficult to put out, so you can't just 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.680 have a fire truck come up and throw some water 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.280 on it. But what else does out of hand mean 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.520 in this context, yes, certainly. So at the kind of 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:16.400 base level, you have to consider the chemistry and particularly 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:20.720 chemistry the cathode to understand the kind of safety requirements 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:25.360 and implications of Littingman battery. There's essentially two families of 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.920 cathode chemistries that are used. You have your nickels based 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:33.120 cathodes and your misty mind phosphate based cathodes. So the 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:37.120 nickel based cathodes are considered to be high energy, don't see. 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.880 They have what's called kind of transition metal oxide based materials, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.240 and what happens is when the material itself is heated 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.920 above a certain point, you find that oxygen start to 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:53.840 be evolved from that cathode material. So the listeman phosphate materials, 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.000 there is oxygen in there, but it's locked in in 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.680 what's called a kind of phosphate an iron, and it's 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:01.880 hard u for that oxygen to be released. You have 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.319 to go to kind of higher temperatures. So with the 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.440 nickel based material, once that oxygen starts being released, once 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.839 it gets hot enough and actually kind of oxygen is 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.280 just released from the cathode, that's what then can cause 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:19.120 the Litta mind battery fire to fuel itself. If you know, 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.120 even in the case of adding water from a firefighter, 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.760 for example, some people out there, you know, might be 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:26.959 familiar with I think they call them cherry bombs in 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.360 the US, where you can chuck them in water and 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.319 the fuse will still burn. It will it will kind 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.280 of go bang at the end. And you know, that's 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.040 the kind of self propagation that you get with the 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.480 lity mind battery. It feeds its own kind of fire. 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.720 So it doesn't matter if this water, it's still gonna 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:47.200 keep going. So on the topic of preventing these from happening, 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:49.559 there is a lot of attention on trying to figure 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.640 out which one or maybe all four of the potential 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:57.559 causes is actually the primary cause of these fires. What's 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:02.200 then happening from a regulatory stand point, because presumably there 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:06.560 is a place that in terms of trying to ensure 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.199 safety for the end consumer, since you know five percent 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.199 of these actually are catching fire, that the government maybe 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.440 has to play in South Korea, and and what do 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:17.600 you see coming down the pipe? Yeah, I can, I 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.800 can give some contexts there. So I mentioned something earlier, 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.800 which is the industry tends to develop and because it's 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.600 such a new industry, it's it's developing at a more 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.880 rapid pace than certifications and often regulations, so it's a 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.840 bit of a game of trying to catch up with 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.560 the pace of growth UM and responding quite quickly when 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.560 incidents happened. In the case of Korea, for example, what 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.400 they immediately immediately did was stop issuing some new permits 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.000 for new projects, and then at the back of that 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:52.480 also required that the existing and operating facilities reduced their 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.599 operating parameters. So essentially you're not charging it up to 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.960 or probably you're you're only charging it up to or, 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:02.839 which is a bit of a problem as well, because 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.640 the way the incentive systems might be designed might might 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:11.400 actually favor projects actually operating at a higher higher operating range, 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:13.520 which isn't great. But they try to kind of compensate 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.440 for that as well, so there's kind of that immediate 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.640 response that that has to happen. Then kind of secondarily 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.000 is okay, so now we have to review all the 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.760 safety standards that are in place, make adjustments, and UM 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.200 kind of push it out to the industry as a requirement. 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:32.240 And these requirements tend to be either i a international 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.640 or be local, so international in the sense of there 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.480 are a few international bodies issuing certification so I e. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:43.560 SE and and UEL as well, So they essentially set 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:48.320 up of different certification metrics or certification standards for different 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:50.719 parts of the system as well as the system as 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:56.000 a whole. UH and and essentially battery developers or system 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.640 integrators are trying to get their systems certified by these 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:03.400 body is that generally have certifications that are accepted across 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.640 different markets. At a more local level and perhaps at 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.240 a more dramatic level, you might see something like New 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:13.680 York City having much more restrictive certification and safety requirements, 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.319 which might actually mean you it just takes too much 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.600 longer for you to get the permits and all the 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.560 additional paperwork that you might need to to actually get 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.200 the systems installed in the first place. And are they 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:29.960 certification systems essentially leading to more reliable units being installed, 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:35.440 So I mean they're more compliance with the safety certifications 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.120 that have evolved over time. So in a way, yes, 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.640 they are more safe than probably what you would have 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.920 seen installed five years ago. There's a general recognition in 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.800 the industry that there's still work to be done UM 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.400 and a lot of it is is kind of trial 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.480 and error as well, and trial and error error not 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.520 necessarily meaning a battery fire, but but definitely doing a 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.520 lot more testing and understanding kind of the operations of 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.680 in place. And you mentioned certification and actually the South 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:08.080 Korean government noting that they are not installing anymore at 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.360 least for the time being until the figure out kind 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.440 of I guess what the problem is. And the next 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.240 question I have on that is are these units being 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.200 exported to other countries and is this a fairly robust 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:24.679 international marketplace for these that's kind of originating in South Korea. Yeah, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.880 I'll just correct that they positive for for a period 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.320 period of time, which is when they were basically doing 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.800 the investigation to understand the group causes for the battery fires, 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.760 after which they essentially issued new rules that new battery 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.960 projects have to comply with UM and then reopened permits 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.120 for new new project development. So since then there has 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.719 been additional projects kind of being permitted. Okay, so we're 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.520 back on good Yeah, I know, But but I will 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.679 say that the twenty ninth battery fire incidents happened in 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.240 the context of kind of the new regulations in place, 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.560 So it's it's a bit of a blow in the 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.160 industry in that sense. But regardless, I think on your 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:08.440 points in question regarding exports of batteries and the role 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:12.760 of Korean manufacturers overseas is I think, for for a 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.120 lot of time, especially because Korea was that kind of 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.439 first moving, bigger market in the world, we had thought 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:23.920 of the battery fires as erroneously probably as a potential 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.480 career problem, which is why in the context of the 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.600 APS for battery incidents this became more relevant. So, yeah, 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.400 l G CAM times, I guess see, I a lot 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.440 of the Korean players are major players in the global 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:40.080 market and supply battery modules too, larger utility scale, and 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.480 the animator projects globally as well. It's in a way 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.320 there was a lot of concern any company or developer 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.800 who was integrating a storage system if they really cared 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.120 about what was happening in Korea one among these twenty 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.800 nine fires. And I guess the yeah, you're saying, it's 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:58.880 across the industry. So my question has to do with 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.360 which companies are associated with these fires. Is there a 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.120 correlation between a few or is it just kind of 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.560 across the lithium ion universe. If you will. I mean, 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.560 I think we can be specific with with what we know. 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.520 So just to give an example, and I know, we 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.840 keep going back to the APS facility. So the APS 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.120 facility was integrated by FLUENCE, which is a joint venture 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.680 between a S and semens that particular facility, and these 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:31.760 are all publicly disclosed information. That facility used ALGICM batteries, 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.400 and so I mean, you could try to put your 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.160 finger and say this is an algacam problem. But as 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.440 you like, from reading the report, you'll see it's not 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.720 just about the battery cells themselves. The safety of a 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.640 system entails a lot of components that within them is 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.240 ensuring the batteries it's safe. But as James kind of 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.400 broke down in the in the career example, you have 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.680 to ensure all the other elements are in place as well. 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.400 So you have to have some form of suppression system 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.960 which is appropriate for batteries and not necessarily just for 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.160 a regular fire. So looking into this, surely there are 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:08.240 some things that sort of came to your mind. And 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.080 I know that you know we're researchers and we are 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.520 not regulators, but what recommendations would you say that you 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.720 guys have for the industry, and how would you like 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.400 to see this carried forward. I mean, it's it's an 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.560 interesting question. I think what we certainly don't want to 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:27.320 see is the industry being derailed by what is a 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:32.000 relatively kind of limited problem. You know. I think we 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.320 talked about the twenty nine fives in Korea in particular. Okay, 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:39.160 there's the example of APS in the US and the 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:44.320 Energy's pilot plant, but generally, you know, listening miland battery 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.880 project kind of are fine and we don't see these fires, 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.240 and so you know, I think it's more that we 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.560 shouldn't scare the industry off and put people from buildings 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.760 these but just being more aware of, Okay, what what 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.440 are the risks and how can we prevent this from happening? 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.960 And I think for me, you know, the main risk 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.520 is this issue of list of mind battery being able 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.879 to kind of sustain its own or propagate its own fire. 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.119 So really it's about thinking of how you how you 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.200 can kind of mitigate that from happening. So what improved 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.600 fire fighting techniques can you you put in there? And 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.840 one of the things that people often highlight is being 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.560 able to cool the cells down more so you can't 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.400 put it out with water, but if you can take 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.679 the energy away from that cell, it won't get so 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.159 hot that it will release oxygen. And so people are 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.560 looking at using what's called liquid cooling in spacially storage projects, 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.040 and this is something that's used in electric vehicles already, 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:44.040 but to date, generally saciary storage projects have used kind 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.840 of air conditioning systems essentially because it's cheaper and easier 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:49.760 to install. But I think we'll probably move in the 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.760 direction where we see more of these liquid cooling systems 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.800 coming into place. Can I just make a comments under 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.760 liquid cooling versus air cord systems UM? And this is 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.639 more of a person or anecdotes. So we talked about 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.480 the APS facility, and actually, like four days before the 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:11.359 fire incidents in the APS facility, I had visited the 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.760 sister facility, which is kind of like very similar respects 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.119 to the one that actually had the battery and the 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:20.400 battery fire incident, which is kind of scary actually because 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.199 it was like just four days after and then I 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.520 was like, I was just at a facility that was 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.320 very similar to it, but just to give you kind 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.639 of a mental image of what that's like, It's a 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.960 facility that's pretty much located in a very desert like zone, 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.239 so it's in the middle of a lot of like 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.439 sands um It's close ish, but you you only in 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.800 the distance, could see like neighbor a specific neighborhood, which 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.000 is essentially what they were trying to test with the 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.840 battery facility. That particular neighborhood has a lot of rooftop solar, 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.040 so they were trying to test different things on their 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:56.320 distribution feeder, try different types of services with the batteries themselves. 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.639 It's also from a temperature perspective, it's like forty plus 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:06.440 degrees in the summer at peak times see celsius more 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:10.199 than a hundred fahrenheit, which I mean for me just 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.160 looking at that facility, if you imagine it wasn't it's 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.000 not a container. It's like a building system, but it's 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.960 like under a beating sun. And so what really struck 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.520 me going into that facility was actually the noise of 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.159 the fans. It was actually hard for you to like 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:27.560 talk to each other within the facility because there was 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.320 so many, so many of the fans that are located 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.239 at the module level as well, that those are just 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.560 like ringing into your ear, So it's like quite loud. 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.680 So thermal management on a consistent basis obviously is important, 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.160 but it's also quite interesting to see if we moved 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.200 towards a liquid cooling system, maybe we don't see as 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.520 loud systems as as the one I visited. Okay, let's 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.359 let's continue to go down that road. Take my mind 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.000 to this physical space. How big is it physically? And 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.919 then secondly, how much capacity does it actually store? Like 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.520 how meaningful are these is a part of the grid. Yeah, 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.159 maybe I'm painted it as a bigger facility than it 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.920 actually is. So it's a two megawat too megawat our 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:09.879 system physically we can look at at the checks I 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:11.560 don't off the top of my head, but it's more 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:15.160 or less imagine like a container, um a little bigger 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:19.879 than a container in case like essentially, yeah, you imagine 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.480 a container with like walls built around that container. That's 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.000 essentially kind of the size of the facility. So it's 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.240 technically not a big facility compared to a lot of 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.240 the large scale storage systems that we're starting to see 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.360 come online today and in the coming years. So it's 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.480 fairly small in that sense. We're talking specifically in this 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.400 context really though again about South Korea, but there are 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:46.159 definitely other manufacturers that are looking to play a bigger 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:50.040 role in this space, so specifically within the battery manufacturing 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.360 rather than the automotive manufacturing of liftium ion batteries. Can 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.480 you discuss maybe some of the other countries that might 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.800 be looking at this as a opportunity and maybe the 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:00.720 sorts of things they need to do or the sorts 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.480 of opportunities that are available to them. As there's those 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.399 regulatory focus on the South Korean market, I think probably 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.000 the company or the countries to look at here is 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.040 the two large battery manufacturers are really Career and China 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:19.080 and Korea, or the Korean manufacturers produced these nickel based 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:23.359 chemistries that I've mentioned, Whereas for the stationary storage market, 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.919 the Chinese manufacturers are trying to push lithium and phosphate 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.760 chemistry that I mentioned earlier, and lithium or some people 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.200 kind of consider lithium are and phosphate to be slightly 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:39.840 better suited for use in statory storage because it's kind 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.879 of not quite so prone to release oxygen as the 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.720 nickel based chemistries, and so it's it's kind of safety 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:48.480 performance is slightly better than than the nickel based chemistries. 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.919 And so the Chinese company is trying to you know, 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:53.919 deploy this in the in the staciary storage market, and 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.880 actually at the same time they're trying to expand globally 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.560 because at the moment, the Chinese stationing storage manage factories 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.840 or manufacturers of batteries are very much focused on the 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.560 Chinese market, but they want to grow as as the 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:09.080 stationary storage market grows around the rest of the world 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:14.720 and the EV market, and so this awareness of the 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:18.800 kind of safety of stationary storage projects could be the 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.600 opportunity for Chinese manufacturers to kind of enter the global 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.680 storage market. That being said, you know, there's an increasing 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:31.800 focus on local manufacturing of batteries, and you know, although 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.920