Speaker 1: Energy storage is important for the continued rollout of clean energy. However,
Speaker 1: a series of twenty nine fires at battery storage facilities
Speaker 1: in South Korea since just have called their safety into question.
Speaker 1: The research note behind today's episode is titled Ensuring Safe
Speaker 1: Use of Lithium Ion Batteries and it can be found
Speaker 1: at BENF dot com, at b NF go on the
Speaker 1: Bloomberg terminal, or via the b NF app. Just as
Speaker 1: a quick reminder, BENNF does not provide investment or strategy advice,
Speaker 1: and we have a complete disclaimer at the end of
Speaker 1: the show. I am Dana Perkins, and you're listening to
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Switched on the ben EF podcast. I'm joined today
Speaker 1: by Yi Sine and she leads b NFS researched on
Speaker 1: decentralized energy, alongside James Frith, who leads our research on
Speaker 1: energy storage. Let's hear from our guests. Yea YOI thank
Speaker 1: you for joining us today. Thank you for having me
Speaker 1: and James, thank you for being on Switched on Hi Data,
Speaker 1: Thank for having me. So let's start at the very
Speaker 1: beginning here. What inspired you guys are actually got you
Speaker 1: guys to think that this was an important thing? To
Speaker 1: start researching and looking at now, which is a lot
Speaker 1: of the battery fires for a stationary storage in South Korea. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can take that just to kick off and give
Speaker 1: some context. The energy storage market is clearly growing quite rapidly.
Speaker 1: In particular, Korea has been a leading market in terms
Speaker 1: of total deployment in the world over the past two
Speaker 1: to three years. This year is probably going to fall
Speaker 1: off the ranks. But in that context, the market growing
Speaker 1: so rapidly also means that there is I suppose some
Speaker 1: slowness with regards to safety regulation or to safety certification
Speaker 1: that has to kind of keep up with the place
Speaker 1: of development of the market, and in Korea in particular,
Speaker 1: that that has been an issue because we've seen multiple
Speaker 1: fires by this year. UM and in May we actually
Speaker 1: walk Korea experience the twenty nine better fire incidents, which
Speaker 1: is quite alarming. So twenty nine different fires in different
Speaker 1: installations in Korea. UM. So that really comes put into
Speaker 1: question the development of the industry and what has to
Speaker 1: be done to ensure that we're deploying safe energy storage systems.
Speaker 1: And this is twenty nine fires across you said two years. Yes,
Speaker 1: since seen at least in Korea, we've seen that these
Speaker 1: incidents happening, and I guess in context, what we saw
Speaker 1: was a market that really boomed at the back of
Speaker 1: really generous subsidies in the market, which meant that a
Speaker 1: lot of like generally and experienced developers or integrators were
Speaker 1: were essentially rushing to to build out a lot of
Speaker 1: battery projects in the country, which also led to kind
Speaker 1: of rush on the edges to actually deploy these systems. UM.
Speaker 1: And at the back of that, of course, we've we've
Speaker 1: ended up seeing a sad a sad outcome around around
Speaker 1: the battery fires. So we're gonna be speaking specifically about
Speaker 1: South Koreatia today. I mean, I guess it's more of
Speaker 1: a case study. But have there been fires elsewhere that
Speaker 1: are notable that provide context as well. Yeah, So I
Speaker 1: think the reason why, in particular, I guess at the
Speaker 1: twenty five at twenty nine incidents, this becomes particularly relevant.
Speaker 1: But I think what's more relevant contemporarily is Arizona Public
Speaker 1: Service or utility in Arizona here in the US, they
Speaker 1: released a reports regarding a battery fire that they had
Speaker 1: last year in April and UM and the results of that,
Speaker 1: I think we're quite um, we're quite helpful for us
Speaker 1: to understand the context of safety and certifications, not just
Speaker 1: in Korea, but elsewhere as well. So that's kind of
Speaker 1: why we wanted to bring that conversation here today. I
Speaker 1: think one thing to kind of just jump in and
Speaker 1: add as well is that, um, you know, I think
Speaker 1: I think we kind of are talking about battery fires
Speaker 1: focusing on Korea. Obviously there's the a p S one
Speaker 1: Energy had a battery fire one of the islet testing
Speaker 1: facilities as well, and it gets a lot of well
Speaker 1: in the battery community and the en George community, it
Speaker 1: gets a lot of attention. But actually the twenty nine
Speaker 1: five that we're talking about in Korea effect you know,
Speaker 1: roughly about five percent of the total deployed capacity. So
Speaker 1: although you know, it's a lot of attention, it's actually
Speaker 1: a readatively small amount of kind of deployed projects or affected.
Speaker 1: So James and this brings us to a good point
Speaker 1: for us to try and understand why do we think
Speaker 1: that these fires are happening. I mean, even within that
Speaker 1: five percent, ideally they're very difficult to put out and
Speaker 1: people really don't want these to be happening. So I
Speaker 1: suppose diagnosing what could be the issue is probably step one.
Speaker 1: Can you provide us with some insight there? Yes, certainly,
Speaker 1: And I guess this is the kind of the million
Speaker 1: dollar question. And I guess I kind of literally mean
Speaker 1: that because there's obviously, you know, huge kind of insurance
Speaker 1: liabilities associated with these fires, um and determining you know,
Speaker 1: what the causes actually influences you know, who whose insurance
Speaker 1: or who is liable for you know, the project catching
Speaker 1: fire in the kind of any you know, resulting costs
Speaker 1: that the recurring products. And I think there's kind of
Speaker 1: I suppose a couple of the things to look at here.
Speaker 1: There obviously reports off the back of the fires and Korea,
Speaker 1: but as the AO mentioned, there was recently, you know,
Speaker 1: the the APS fire report that was published about a
Speaker 1: month or so ago, which was quite enlightening, should we say,
Speaker 1: in the kind of cause of the fire. But just
Speaker 1: starting with the Korean fires, obviously, you know the twenty
Speaker 1: nine fires there, there's a lot of work was done
Speaker 1: on that to try and understand, you know, what caused them.
Speaker 1: And while that work was going on, you know, there
Speaker 1: were certain safety measures put in place by the you know,
Speaker 1: the authorities in Korea to try and prevent this from happening.
Speaker 1: You know, one part of that was limiting the capacity
Speaker 1: of the storage systems that could be used. About the
Speaker 1: total capacity. It is actually just as they lifted those
Speaker 1: regulations that we had the fire earlier this year in May,
Speaker 1: so that's quite interesting to see. But off the back
Speaker 1: of the kind of fires in Korea, there's a report
Speaker 1: that came out and identified I guess four key areas
Speaker 1: that could be behind these fires, and just to kind
Speaker 1: of run through them them quite quickly and then I
Speaker 1: can dive into a bit more detail. The first thing
Speaker 1: that they identified was exposure to humidity. Obviously, moisture and
Speaker 1: electronics don't mix that well. Moisture in the inside of
Speaker 1: batteries mixed even worse. So that's the first thing that
Speaker 1: they identified. The next thing would then be kind of
Speaker 1: defectory defective battery cells or modules kind of building on
Speaker 1: the detector cell. I guess, you know, they said that
Speaker 1: potentially there could have been external damage caused to the
Speaker 1: either the system or the cells and modules during construction.
Speaker 1: And finally, you know, it's possible that the battery management
Speaker 1: system was faulty and didn't control the systems within the
Speaker 1: kind of parameters that they were meant to. So this
Speaker 1: was kind of what was identified in the Korean fire incidents.
Speaker 1: And actually that kind of covers the full value chain
Speaker 1: from cell manufacturer down to kind of integrator and indeed
Speaker 1: battery operator. So there's a range of different areas to
Speaker 1: look at there, and also you know, off the back
Speaker 1: of that different recommendations on how you could prevent this
Speaker 1: from happening again, you know, leading on from the defective
Speaker 1: battery cell, and this is what a lot of people
Speaker 1: suspected could be behind it, because you know, although there
Speaker 1: is a huge amount of safety considerations that go into
Speaker 1: designing batteries and building the cells themselves and modules are
Speaker 1: packed and everything else, you know, you essentially have a
Speaker 1: lot of energy contained within earty in mind battery and
Speaker 1: if something goes wrong with that battery, it can it
Speaker 1: can kind of get out of hand pretty quickly. Could
Speaker 1: you explain really quickly what out of hand means? Because
Speaker 1: I know that you know, for everybody listening, I know
Speaker 1: they're very difficult to put out, so you can't just
Speaker 1: have a fire truck come up and throw some water
Speaker 1: on it. But what else does out of hand mean
Speaker 1: in this context, yes, certainly. So at the kind of
Speaker 1: base level, you have to consider the chemistry and particularly
Speaker 1: chemistry the cathode to understand the kind of safety requirements
Speaker 1: and implications of Littingman battery. There's essentially two families of
Speaker 1: cathode chemistries that are used. You have your nickels based
Speaker 1: cathodes and your misty mind phosphate based cathodes. So the
Speaker 1: nickel based cathodes are considered to be high energy, don't see.
Speaker 1: They have what's called kind of transition metal oxide based materials,
Speaker 1: and what happens is when the material itself is heated
Speaker 1: above a certain point, you find that oxygen start to
Speaker 1: be evolved from that cathode material. So the listeman phosphate materials,
Speaker 1: there is oxygen in there, but it's locked in in
Speaker 1: what's called a kind of phosphate an iron, and it's
Speaker 1: hard u for that oxygen to be released. You have
Speaker 1: to go to kind of higher temperatures. So with the
Speaker 1: nickel based material, once that oxygen starts being released, once
Speaker 1: it gets hot enough and actually kind of oxygen is
Speaker 1: just released from the cathode, that's what then can cause
Speaker 1: the Litta mind battery fire to fuel itself. If you know,
Speaker 1: even in the case of adding water from a firefighter,
Speaker 1: for example, some people out there, you know, might be
Speaker 1: familiar with I think they call them cherry bombs in
Speaker 1: the US, where you can chuck them in water and
Speaker 1: the fuse will still burn. It will it will kind
Speaker 1: of go bang at the end. And you know, that's
Speaker 1: the kind of self propagation that you get with the
Speaker 1: lity mind battery. It feeds its own kind of fire.
Speaker 1: So it doesn't matter if this water, it's still gonna
Speaker 1: keep going. So on the topic of preventing these from happening,
Speaker 1: there is a lot of attention on trying to figure
Speaker 1: out which one or maybe all four of the potential
Speaker 1: causes is actually the primary cause of these fires. What's
Speaker 1: then happening from a regulatory stand point, because presumably there
Speaker 1: is a place that in terms of trying to ensure
Speaker 1: safety for the end consumer, since you know five percent
Speaker 1: of these actually are catching fire, that the government maybe
Speaker 1: has to play in South Korea, and and what do
Speaker 1: you see coming down the pipe? Yeah, I can, I
Speaker 1: can give some contexts there. So I mentioned something earlier,
Speaker 1: which is the industry tends to develop and because it's
Speaker 1: such a new industry, it's it's developing at a more
Speaker 1: rapid pace than certifications and often regulations, so it's a
Speaker 1: bit of a game of trying to catch up with
Speaker 1: the pace of growth UM and responding quite quickly when
Speaker 1: incidents happened. In the case of Korea, for example, what
Speaker 1: they immediately immediately did was stop issuing some new permits
Speaker 1: for new projects, and then at the back of that
Speaker 1: also required that the existing and operating facilities reduced their
Speaker 1: operating parameters. So essentially you're not charging it up to
Speaker 1: or probably you're you're only charging it up to or,
Speaker 1: which is a bit of a problem as well, because
Speaker 1: the way the incentive systems might be designed might might
Speaker 1: actually favor projects actually operating at a higher higher operating range,
Speaker 1: which isn't great. But they try to kind of compensate
Speaker 1: for that as well, so there's kind of that immediate
Speaker 1: response that that has to happen. Then kind of secondarily
Speaker 1: is okay, so now we have to review all the
Speaker 1: safety standards that are in place, make adjustments, and UM
Speaker 1: kind of push it out to the industry as a requirement.
Speaker 1: And these requirements tend to be either i a international
Speaker 1: or be local, so international in the sense of there
Speaker 1: are a few international bodies issuing certification so I e.
Speaker 1: SE and and UEL as well, So they essentially set
Speaker 1: up of different certification metrics or certification standards for different
Speaker 1: parts of the system as well as the system as
Speaker 1: a whole. UH and and essentially battery developers or system
Speaker 1: integrators are trying to get their systems certified by these
Speaker 1: body is that generally have certifications that are accepted across
Speaker 1: different markets. At a more local level and perhaps at
Speaker 1: a more dramatic level, you might see something like New
Speaker 1: York City having much more restrictive certification and safety requirements,
Speaker 1: which might actually mean you it just takes too much
Speaker 1: longer for you to get the permits and all the
Speaker 1: additional paperwork that you might need to to actually get
Speaker 1: the systems installed in the first place. And are they
Speaker 1: certification systems essentially leading to more reliable units being installed,
Speaker 1: So I mean they're more compliance with the safety certifications
Speaker 1: that have evolved over time. So in a way, yes,
Speaker 1: they are more safe than probably what you would have
Speaker 1: seen installed five years ago. There's a general recognition in
Speaker 1: the industry that there's still work to be done UM
Speaker 1: and a lot of it is is kind of trial
Speaker 1: and error as well, and trial and error error not
Speaker 1: necessarily meaning a battery fire, but but definitely doing a
Speaker 1: lot more testing and understanding kind of the operations of
Speaker 1: in place. And you mentioned certification and actually the South
Speaker 1: Korean government noting that they are not installing anymore at
Speaker 1: least for the time being until the figure out kind
Speaker 1: of I guess what the problem is. And the next
Speaker 1: question I have on that is are these units being
Speaker 1: exported to other countries and is this a fairly robust
Speaker 1: international marketplace for these that's kind of originating in South Korea. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll just correct that they positive for for a period
Speaker 1: period of time, which is when they were basically doing
Speaker 1: the investigation to understand the group causes for the battery fires,
Speaker 1: after which they essentially issued new rules that new battery
Speaker 1: projects have to comply with UM and then reopened permits
Speaker 1: for new new project development. So since then there has
Speaker 1: been additional projects kind of being permitted. Okay, so we're
Speaker 1: back on good Yeah, I know, But but I will
Speaker 1: say that the twenty ninth battery fire incidents happened in
Speaker 1: the context of kind of the new regulations in place,
Speaker 1: So it's it's a bit of a blow in the
Speaker 1: industry in that sense. But regardless, I think on your
Speaker 1: points in question regarding exports of batteries and the role
Speaker 1: of Korean manufacturers overseas is I think, for for a
Speaker 1: lot of time, especially because Korea was that kind of
Speaker 1: first moving, bigger market in the world, we had thought
Speaker 1: of the battery fires as erroneously probably as a potential
Speaker 1: career problem, which is why in the context of the
Speaker 1: APS for battery incidents this became more relevant. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: l G CAM times, I guess see, I a lot
Speaker 1: of the Korean players are major players in the global
Speaker 1: market and supply battery modules too, larger utility scale, and
Speaker 1: the animator projects globally as well. It's in a way
Speaker 1: there was a lot of concern any company or developer
Speaker 1: who was integrating a storage system if they really cared
Speaker 1: about what was happening in Korea one among these twenty
Speaker 1: nine fires. And I guess the yeah, you're saying, it's
Speaker 1: across the industry. So my question has to do with
Speaker 1: which companies are associated with these fires. Is there a
Speaker 1: correlation between a few or is it just kind of
Speaker 1: across the lithium ion universe. If you will. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think we can be specific with with what we know.
Speaker 1: So just to give an example, and I know, we
Speaker 1: keep going back to the APS facility. So the APS
Speaker 1: facility was integrated by FLUENCE, which is a joint venture
Speaker 1: between a S and semens that particular facility, and these
Speaker 1: are all publicly disclosed information. That facility used ALGICM batteries,
Speaker 1: and so I mean, you could try to put your
Speaker 1: finger and say this is an algacam problem. But as
Speaker 1: you like, from reading the report, you'll see it's not
Speaker 1: just about the battery cells themselves. The safety of a
Speaker 1: system entails a lot of components that within them is
Speaker 1: ensuring the batteries it's safe. But as James kind of
Speaker 1: broke down in the in the career example, you have
Speaker 1: to ensure all the other elements are in place as well.
Speaker 1: So you have to have some form of suppression system
Speaker 1: which is appropriate for batteries and not necessarily just for
Speaker 1: a regular fire. So looking into this, surely there are
Speaker 1: some things that sort of came to your mind. And
Speaker 1: I know that you know we're researchers and we are
Speaker 1: not regulators, but what recommendations would you say that you
Speaker 1: guys have for the industry, and how would you like
Speaker 1: to see this carried forward. I mean, it's it's an
Speaker 1: interesting question. I think what we certainly don't want to
Speaker 1: see is the industry being derailed by what is a
Speaker 1: relatively kind of limited problem. You know. I think we
Speaker 1: talked about the twenty nine fives in Korea in particular. Okay,
Speaker 1: there's the example of APS in the US and the
Speaker 1: Energy's pilot plant, but generally, you know, listening miland battery
Speaker 1: project kind of are fine and we don't see these fires,
Speaker 1: and so you know, I think it's more that we
Speaker 1: shouldn't scare the industry off and put people from buildings
Speaker 1: these but just being more aware of, Okay, what what
Speaker 1: are the risks and how can we prevent this from happening?
Speaker 1: And I think for me, you know, the main risk
Speaker 1: is this issue of list of mind battery being able
Speaker 1: to kind of sustain its own or propagate its own fire.
Speaker 1: So really it's about thinking of how you how you
Speaker 1: can kind of mitigate that from happening. So what improved
Speaker 1: fire fighting techniques can you you put in there? And
Speaker 1: one of the things that people often highlight is being
Speaker 1: able to cool the cells down more so you can't
Speaker 1: put it out with water, but if you can take
Speaker 1: the energy away from that cell, it won't get so
Speaker 1: hot that it will release oxygen. And so people are
Speaker 1: looking at using what's called liquid cooling in spacially storage projects,
Speaker 1: and this is something that's used in electric vehicles already,
Speaker 1: but to date, generally saciary storage projects have used kind
Speaker 1: of air conditioning systems essentially because it's cheaper and easier
Speaker 1: to install. But I think we'll probably move in the
Speaker 1: direction where we see more of these liquid cooling systems
Speaker 1: coming into place. Can I just make a comments under
Speaker 1: liquid cooling versus air cord systems UM? And this is
Speaker 1: more of a person or anecdotes. So we talked about
Speaker 1: the APS facility, and actually, like four days before the
Speaker 1: fire incidents in the APS facility, I had visited the
Speaker 1: sister facility, which is kind of like very similar respects
Speaker 1: to the one that actually had the battery and the
Speaker 1: battery fire incident, which is kind of scary actually because
Speaker 1: it was like just four days after and then I
Speaker 1: was like, I was just at a facility that was
Speaker 1: very similar to it, but just to give you kind
Speaker 1: of a mental image of what that's like, It's a
Speaker 1: facility that's pretty much located in a very desert like zone,
Speaker 1: so it's in the middle of a lot of like
Speaker 1: sands um It's close ish, but you you only in
Speaker 1: the distance, could see like neighbor a specific neighborhood, which
Speaker 1: is essentially what they were trying to test with the
Speaker 1: battery facility. That particular neighborhood has a lot of rooftop solar,
Speaker 1: so they were trying to test different things on their
Speaker 1: distribution feeder, try different types of services with the batteries themselves.
Speaker 1: It's also from a temperature perspective, it's like forty plus
Speaker 1: degrees in the summer at peak times see celsius more
Speaker 1: than a hundred fahrenheit, which I mean for me just
Speaker 1: looking at that facility, if you imagine it wasn't it's
Speaker 1: not a container. It's like a building system, but it's
Speaker 1: like under a beating sun. And so what really struck
Speaker 1: me going into that facility was actually the noise of
Speaker 1: the fans. It was actually hard for you to like
Speaker 1: talk to each other within the facility because there was
Speaker 1: so many, so many of the fans that are located
Speaker 1: at the module level as well, that those are just
Speaker 1: like ringing into your ear, So it's like quite loud.
Speaker 1: So thermal management on a consistent basis obviously is important,
Speaker 1: but it's also quite interesting to see if we moved
Speaker 1: towards a liquid cooling system, maybe we don't see as
Speaker 1: loud systems as as the one I visited. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: let's continue to go down that road. Take my mind
Speaker 1: to this physical space. How big is it physically? And
Speaker 1: then secondly, how much capacity does it actually store? Like
Speaker 1: how meaningful are these is a part of the grid. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm painted it as a bigger facility than it
Speaker 1: actually is. So it's a two megawat too megawat our
Speaker 1: system physically we can look at at the checks I
Speaker 1: don't off the top of my head, but it's more
Speaker 1: or less imagine like a container, um a little bigger
Speaker 1: than a container in case like essentially, yeah, you imagine
Speaker 1: a container with like walls built around that container. That's
Speaker 1: essentially kind of the size of the facility. So it's
Speaker 1: technically not a big facility compared to a lot of
Speaker 1: the large scale storage systems that we're starting to see
Speaker 1: come online today and in the coming years. So it's
Speaker 1: fairly small in that sense. We're talking specifically in this
Speaker 1: context really though again about South Korea, but there are
Speaker 1: definitely other manufacturers that are looking to play a bigger
Speaker 1: role in this space, so specifically within the battery manufacturing
Speaker 1: rather than the automotive manufacturing of liftium ion batteries. Can
Speaker 1: you discuss maybe some of the other countries that might
Speaker 1: be looking at this as a opportunity and maybe the
Speaker 1: sorts of things they need to do or the sorts
Speaker 1: of opportunities that are available to them. As there's those
Speaker 1: regulatory focus on the South Korean market, I think probably
Speaker 1: the company or the countries to look at here is
Speaker 1: the two large battery manufacturers are really Career and China
Speaker 1: and Korea, or the Korean manufacturers produced these nickel based
Speaker 1: chemistries that I've mentioned, Whereas for the stationary storage market,
Speaker 1: the Chinese manufacturers are trying to push lithium and phosphate
Speaker 1: chemistry that I mentioned earlier, and lithium or some people
Speaker 1: kind of consider lithium are and phosphate to be slightly
Speaker 1: better suited for use in statory storage because it's kind
Speaker 1: of not quite so prone to release oxygen as the
Speaker 1: nickel based chemistries, and so it's it's kind of safety
Speaker 1: performance is slightly better than than the nickel based chemistries.
Speaker 1: And so the Chinese company is trying to you know,
Speaker 1: deploy this in the in the staciary storage market, and
Speaker 1: actually at the same time they're trying to expand globally
Speaker 1: because at the moment, the Chinese stationing storage manage factories
Speaker 1: or manufacturers of batteries are very much focused on the
Speaker 1: Chinese market, but they want to grow as as the
Speaker 1: stationary storage market grows around the rest of the world
Speaker 1: and the EV market, and so this awareness of the
Speaker 1: kind of safety of stationary storage projects could be the
Speaker 1: opportunity for Chinese manufacturers to kind of enter the global
Speaker 1: storage market. That being said, you know, there's an increasing
Speaker 1: focus on local manufacturing of batteries, and you know, although
Speaker 1: companies generally fart off by talking about manufacturing batteries for
Speaker 1: ev s locally, if you have a battery manufacturing facility,
Speaker 1: it could produce them to evs or equally, you could
Speaker 1: start producing them to stationary storage as well. So we
Speaker 1: could see you know, a shift in who's supplying cells
Speaker 1: for statiary storage systems as a result of this. And
Speaker 1: maybe this goes without saying but can you just for
Speaker 1: our listeners some up quickly. Why you think it's important
Speaker 1: for the stationary storage space to take off for the
Speaker 1: rest of the grid. Perhaps, yeah, I think. I mean
Speaker 1: it's a it's a pretty known story. I guess the
Speaker 1: growth growth of renewables and the context of de carbonizing
Speaker 1: our power system, part of that will require more flexibility
Speaker 1: in the way we operate our systems because renewables essentially
Speaker 1: aren't a flexible technology. That's essentially where batteries come in.
Speaker 1: Take advantage of dropping costs, you can start adding lower
Speaker 1: cost systems um and so from from a grid empower
Speaker 1: system perspective at energy storage to balance the variability of
Speaker 1: the grid is kind of an important and increasingly important
Speaker 1: part of how we're going to construct our our grid
Speaker 1: of the future. Well on that night, Joy and James,
Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining switched On today and
Speaker 1: gears to hoping they figure out what is causing the
Speaker 1: fires so we can see this important and critical industry
Speaker 1: take off. Thank you day. Today's episode of Switched On
Speaker 1: was edited by Rex Warner whom Graytak Media. Bloomberg an
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