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Speaker 1: Welcome to crime around up. I am. I don't even

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Speaker 1: know if I can contain how excited I am. Joshua Schieffer,

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Speaker 1: how are you, honey, I'm good.

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Speaker 2: It is going to be a week. We got a

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Speaker 2: couple of big ones to cover tonight.

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Speaker 1: Child, It's a week. But you know, this is one

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Speaker 1: of the best parts of my week. And I have

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Speaker 1: to say that, even though the topics are rough and

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Speaker 1: sad and sometimes horrifying, you are one of the most

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Speaker 1: uplifting people. Oh yes, and I just love your take

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Speaker 1: on it. I love that you love your cat. I

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Speaker 1: love that you love your child.

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Speaker 2: I love that you.

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Speaker 1: Love your job. And it just makes a big difference.

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Speaker 1: It really does.

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Speaker 2: And I really appreciate that. And the honor is online.

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Speaker 2: You know what a fan I am. And really it's

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Speaker 2: because Carl Jung. Follow your bliss. Carl Jung is a

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Speaker 2: psychologist from one hundred years ago, one of the fathers

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Speaker 2: of psychology, and he said, follow your bless and really

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Speaker 2: you see success and happiness there. True crime is kind

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Speaker 2: of my blive. This is what I've gone into, and

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Speaker 2: this is the stuff that I'm interested in. And it's

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Speaker 2: like you, it's the love of the system show like.

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Speaker 2: It's why this conversation means so much to me is

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Speaker 2: because we come at this from some different angles and perspectives.

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Speaker 2: But it's the love of the system and the belief

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Speaker 2: that our system is the best one in the universe

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Speaker 2: and it gets better. It's got problems, nothing's perfect, but

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Speaker 2: we're we're working hard and good people get together and

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Speaker 2: work hard and make things better for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it may not be perfect, but it is the

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Speaker 1: best one out there.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, oh yes, all right, it needs to be strong.

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Speaker 2: We got we got, we got a big one. Let

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Speaker 2: you want to start with just a terrifying idea of

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Speaker 2: a young man in our communities with warnings.

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Speaker 1: Killing people, killing people premeditated. This was planned, he took

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Speaker 1: action to make sure he was going to get away

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Speaker 1: with this. And the fact that again because I have

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Speaker 1: said it before, the selection of a state park. So

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Speaker 1: many perpetrators want to hide out in a state park,

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Speaker 1: want to maneuver in a state park. It is page one,

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Speaker 1: But I got to tell you my family, we love

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Speaker 1: a state park. Honey.

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Speaker 2: Amen, My brother is that guy that has the window

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Speaker 2: you can't see through because all of the stickers. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: state parks are one of those things that I get

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Speaker 2: angry when people talk about taxes and things to come,

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Speaker 2: and I'm really disappointed at our state take a hit

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Speaker 2: because the value provided to millions of average citizens is

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Speaker 2: undenowped and it's something other countries don't have. Many do

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Speaker 2: have national park systems, but really we are blessed with

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Speaker 2: our natural.

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Speaker 1: Party, national parks, state parks, national parks. It's nature's library.

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Speaker 1: You can experience so many things, lakes and rivers and

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Speaker 1: wildlife and trees and plants, and you've got people there

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Speaker 1: that are wanting to show you. I mean that ranger

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Speaker 1: will walk with you, put on classes, experience this unbelievable

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Speaker 1: terrain with you. It is remarkable. And I'm telling you myself,

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Speaker 1: more off the beaten path, the better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh that there's a whole discussion about how luxury

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Speaker 2: and what luxury isn't Luxury is trending towards isolation because

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Speaker 2: it's much more difficult to achieve. And the dream is

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Speaker 2: the now. Instead of the penthouse in the city, it

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Speaker 2: is the wyoming ranch without a house in the distance,

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Speaker 2: and that is something that is unbelievably rare and difficult

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Speaker 2: and expensive. I've looked at them. I've used to train

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Speaker 2: at Jerry Spence's which is out there and Whyo. It's amazing,

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Speaker 2: but the land costs are astronomical. And to have these

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Speaker 2: resources like the Tetons, like our state parks. George's got

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Speaker 2: a fantastic state park community. Our governors have been good

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Speaker 2: stewards of our state parks and they're just so important.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I guess. It terrifies people now to

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Speaker 2: think about them being the site of some really horrific crimes.

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Speaker 2: And that's exactly what we've got here. And for those

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Speaker 2: that haven't been following, we're talking about the Washington County

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Speaker 2: murder of two wonderful parents at the Devil's Den State

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Speaker 2: Park in Arkansas, and then the immediate pretty much apprehension

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Speaker 2: of a young man who has made an admission, Andrew

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Speaker 2: James McCann. And what's happened is he has admitted to

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Speaker 2: the killing, and it turns out he was terrifyingly warned

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Speaker 2: about during his multiple prior positions as an educator for kids.

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Speaker 2: Two little children witnessed all.

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Speaker 1: Of this, and I believe they were the target. I

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Speaker 1: said right out of the gate, he will have child

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Speaker 1: porn on every device he has I see.

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Speaker 2: I know that the children's medical condition is not something

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Speaker 2: that's getting really talked about except that they're in the

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Speaker 2: care of the family, and that's to protect everybody involved.

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Speaker 2: We are talking about children. It may behoove, given the

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Speaker 2: strength of the state's case with the existing crimes, to

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Speaker 2: not pursue additional investigation and such in the best interest

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Speaker 2: of justice and these little kids. But yeah, there's a possibility,

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Speaker 2: certainly of some CSM materials being out there with this guy.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know. I think there's something much deeper

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Speaker 2: than that. I don't see this as being that kind

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Speaker 2: of crime necessary. But you know, we know very little,

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Speaker 2: and that's part of the scary.

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Speaker 1: Part that is scary. But here's what we do know.

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Speaker 1: He covered his license plate, that was done prior. He

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Speaker 1: wore clothes that I believe that he thought was covert,

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Speaker 1: he had a weapon. All of those things were done

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Speaker 1: before the murders. Yeah, this family just happened to be there.

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Speaker 1: This wasn't something that was predetermined. They weren't meeting up

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Speaker 1: or anything. He didn't know them.

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Speaker 2: The randomness of the victim is as frightening as the

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Speaker 2: planning and malice. A forethought, because clearly he had an

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Speaker 2: intention to do something bad that evening, right, and it

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Speaker 2: was just this family fit, whatever the stimulus was, and

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Speaker 2: that I think answering that question, we're very likely never

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Speaker 2: going to really know the answer because I imagine, given

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Speaker 2: the strength of the state's case, the real discussion is

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Speaker 2: is this going to be a DP which is certainly

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Speaker 2: just five Many people will be adamant that this is

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Speaker 2: the exact kind of case similar to Coburger, where that

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Speaker 2: is why we have the death penalty, and then there

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Speaker 2: will be people saying no, given whatever may be wrong

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Speaker 2: with this man's mentality, and I'm being careful there to not,

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Speaker 2: you know, say anything specifically. I have my own gumshoe

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Speaker 2: detective belief about some mental health defenses that may play

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Speaker 2: a role. The death penalty may not be appropriate. Life

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Speaker 2: without parole is a pretty gimme offer.

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Speaker 1: And Josh, you just brought up a great point because

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you there is zero shot that

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Speaker 1: his family and friends and co workers did not see

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Speaker 1: this transformation from the photographs alone.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and you don't miss this behavior.

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Speaker 1: Don't miss it. He looks like somebody that is going

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Speaker 1: to do this if you were hiring somebody to play

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Speaker 1: an actor in a movie, he'll do. He looks the part.

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Speaker 2: I'll say this, and it's it's hard to, you know,

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Speaker 2: be a judge of just purely his physical look, even

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Speaker 2: though it's something. Trust me. Some of defense attorneys say

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Speaker 2: they've got radar for certain charges, notably anything involved in sex,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, you see the client, You're like, but

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Speaker 2: I know what that guy's here for, And certainly it

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Speaker 2: comforts us to be like, well, he looks like someone

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Speaker 2: that would do. But what I'm more discussing is what

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Speaker 2: are we going to discover about prior bad acts that,

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason never reached an appropriate intervention from somebody.

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Speaker 2: Excellent point, figure out whose ball got cha? Then that

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Speaker 2: it's the Diddy case all over again. Where did he?

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Speaker 2: Why'd they prosecute him? Will be? Has the police really

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Speaker 2: boned the clear beating on video?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And it looked awful and people had to do something,

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Speaker 2: and the FEDS got told, hey, Feds, if it ain't you,

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Speaker 2: he gets away with everything. That kind of ethic fits

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Speaker 2: in here to some degree.

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Speaker 1: I often say, there's no such thing as a part

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Speaker 1: time serial killer. There's no such thing as a part

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Speaker 1: time child predator. And this is what I mean. Think

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Speaker 1: of anything that you feel like you're almost obsessed with,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a college football team or your job, or

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Speaker 1: planning a wedding, it's what you do. There are people

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Speaker 1: they paint their face, they buy uniforms, they plan their

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Speaker 1: social calendar around college football. Walt and myself got married

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Speaker 1: during a bye week because we knew there would be

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Speaker 1: some family members that would not come.

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Speaker 2: First thing on every wedding player's calendar is the UJA

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Speaker 2: home schedule, right on, right on. That's the way it is.

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Speaker 2: Go dogs, yes, And so it ain't just George.

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Speaker 1: It's not just Georgia. And you know, for this type

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Speaker 1: of predator, to me, what they're going to find is

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Speaker 1: he no longer could hide it, he could no longer

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Speaker 1: stop it. It might have started with some pictures and

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Speaker 1: then went to videos, and then went to downloading videos,

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Speaker 1: then went to driving around to see if he could

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Speaker 1: find children alone and talking to them and kind of

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Speaker 1: flirting with them and then tickling them. Because again, none

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Speaker 1: of these things are necessarily illegal. But then you have

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Speaker 1: a young man that looks like he was a high

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Speaker 1: school football player. He looks more like a coach. What

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Speaker 1: does he do? He gets a job where he's surrounded

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Speaker 1: by children, and that is not uncommon, whether it's boy scouts,

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Speaker 1: a coach, a teacher, a mall sanna.

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Speaker 2: And it's such a terrific stereotype because then you've got

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Speaker 2: the men that are legitimately rich, so horrible, and it's like,

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Speaker 2: are you so horrible? I can't tell you how important

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Speaker 2: having male teachers as a young person agreed for appropriate

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Speaker 2: societal male development.

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Speaker 1: Josh, It's the same thing to me when a woman

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Speaker 1: accuses someone of rape and she's lying, Oh yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: you're hurting everybody. Everything's coming after you, And this is

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Speaker 1: the same thing. There's no question my children in elementary

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Speaker 1: school did not have a male teacher, but there was

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Speaker 1: one down the hall. Do you know he was a

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Speaker 1: mentor to them.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh.

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Speaker 1: They saw him as this great guy, you know, comforting,

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Speaker 1: He was a secure place, he was fun.

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Speaker 2: It's part of the discussion about prison pipeline and about

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Speaker 2: these young people of male and female that see the

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Speaker 2: power structure, especially in concentrated urban school zones where there's

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Speaker 2: demographic challenges. Same in some rural zones where we are

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Speaker 2: literally lining these kids up for you exist in this

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Speaker 2: authoritarian system and it's stronger and more consistent than what

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Speaker 2: they have at home due to whatever reason right And unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: when they leave childhood, some of them are naturally drawn

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Speaker 2: to you know that it's gross when you think about

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Speaker 2: but we all see it. We all see it.

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Speaker 1: Well, it just goes down to that thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the great fears of when your kid

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Speaker 2: grows up. And I'm going through it right now, where

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Speaker 2: your kid's now a bigger fish going to a fish bowl. Now,

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Speaker 2: fish bowl is big. I've read presented people at that

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Speaker 2: fish bowl. And you know, I'm a dad and I

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Speaker 2: try super, super super hard to not be crazy dad,

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Speaker 2: but you know, you kind of got to be crazy

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Speaker 2: dead because it's part of being a dad. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's it's an interesting world to be in right now,

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Speaker 2: and this case hits me in a bunch of scary

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Speaker 2: ways because going to national parks is something that families

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Speaker 2: have enjoyed, you know, long before I was ever born. Man,

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Speaker 2: half the signs that are up were carved when my

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Speaker 2: grandfather was you know, a kid. Whether these these parks

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Speaker 2: go back. You look at Teddy Roosevelt, and you look

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Speaker 2: at the establishment of the parks. It's such an important

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Speaker 2: part of America. And we have this young man who

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Speaker 2: we're going to discover that there were lots of red flags,

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Speaker 2: flashing lights, warning signs that for a totality of circumstances,

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Speaker 2: cacophony of crapulence. No one and went all right, let's

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Speaker 2: dig a little bit deeper here, because there's there's almost

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Speaker 2: no way he got to his age and to taking

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Speaker 2: an action so planned, so violent, so escalated from anything

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Speaker 2: he'd been involved with, without those signs being out there previously.

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Speaker 2: And you know the person i'd want to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: My brother is the head of a state's sex offender program,

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Speaker 2: and I'd love to pick his brain on that.

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Speaker 1: Remind me to do that, I will, absolutely because that

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Speaker 1: would be a great follow up.

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Speaker 2: But uh, the brain of the offender becomes super interesting

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Speaker 2: because we can all kind of agree. Is this guy sick? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying not culpable. I'm not saying don't punish him.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying he's not guilty. But is he sick? Yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: he is. He committed an act that is so Abharan

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Speaker 2: of the human condition that is so grossly disgusting and

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Speaker 2: removed from even the mere vestiges of humanity, violation and

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Speaker 2: betrayal of all of our ethics. He did that with

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Speaker 2: planning a fourth thought, knowing, because there's nothing to indicate

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Speaker 2: he was incompetent and crazy. He had jobs as a teacher,

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Speaker 2: he clearly spoke and read the English language fluently. He

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Speaker 2: arguably has a degree. So he's not somebody where we

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Speaker 2: see someone on the street and go, well, there's a

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Speaker 2: crazy person. But he's certainly, in my mind, sick because

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Speaker 2: he chose to take these Now, why is he sick,

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Speaker 2: How is he sick, and what's the effect of his

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Speaker 2: sick that's the analysis, and that's where the culpability determination

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Speaker 2: is going to be made because factually, thankfully, there's no

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Speaker 2: who done it, there's no mystery. The families have that closure,

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Speaker 2: unlike some of the other terrible cases that are out there.

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Speaker 2: That terrifying little bit with that baby dropped off on

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Speaker 2: the lawner. Look, it was awful, horrible, you know.

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Speaker 1: And again he's been able to get job at a job,

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Speaker 1: at a job, at your job, at schools. It seems

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Speaker 1: like there's no oversight there either, like it's it is frightening. Well, listen,

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Speaker 1: my friend, I appreciate you, I love you, and it's

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Speaker 1: hard for me to stop these conversations and keep on light.

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Speaker 1: I can see I can see my husband laughing over there, going, oh,

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Speaker 1: she can talk, but I can't to you. He is

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Speaker 1: he's hungry, but I do. I love you, and I

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Speaker 1: can't wait till next week. But we're going to keep

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Speaker 1: an eye on this story and we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about those red flags and how we need to make

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Speaker 1: sure they're addressed.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, love you too. Love you audience, Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for listening, and we will see you next week

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Speaker 2: on the Crime Round though,