Speaker 1: What uh dangerous con man? My this fucking dude. Will
Speaker 1: James Guest happy? How are you.
Speaker 2: Wonderful? Good? Yeah, thriving ready for learning more about park animas.
Speaker 1: Very happy to hear that, James, I, you know, speaking
Speaker 1: of enemas?
Speaker 3: What why? Why?
Speaker 4: Did?
Speaker 2: What is it about animas?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 1: Why are some people fucking obsessed with this? Is like
Speaker 1: the key to all health?
Speaker 2: Does seem to have a captivating power of the human spirit,
Speaker 2: doesn't it? The enema? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a kind of person Inema guys and anima
Speaker 1: girls who are just like obsessed with fucking animas? Is
Speaker 1: the answer to all health problems?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I don't know, it's it's it's a lasting
Speaker 2: thread throughout human history. Someone should do a PhD on it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it may have something to do with the
Speaker 1: fact that it's like an intense experience that I met you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: create it's like powerful physical sensations, and some people just
Speaker 1: flip out over it. I don't know, Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: seems thankful to their life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, in a way that it's not if you
Speaker 2: inject park water into your colon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta, like, I don't know, like there are
Speaker 1: like obviously. Sometimes enemas are a useful tool for healthcare
Speaker 1: people to give. Sometimes people need edemas. But it should
Speaker 1: never be like a regular part of your day to day, right, No,
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be.
Speaker 2: Just like giving yourself enemas for fun. Yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: under medical supervision only. I think it's my starts on enemas. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they look at us, Enema cops, both of us. Yeah,
Speaker 2: NIMA cops. That's that's my job. I'm going to make
Speaker 2: sure people's assholes are nice and dry. I've broken with
Speaker 2: the anarchis obis, and I'll be becoming one of those
Speaker 2: really annoying stalinists on Twitter.
Speaker 1: You're an asshole authority. Well, you know who's not an
Speaker 1: asshole authoritarian is wim Hoff. But he thinks, you know,
Speaker 1: if you live in a state with public health care,
Speaker 1: you should just cut your guts to ribbons with a
Speaker 1: sprinkler head. And you know your fellow citizens can pay
Speaker 1: for that because you're a drifter who abandoned your family
Speaker 1: for a decade.
Speaker 2: That's what socialism does to him, to a motherfucker, Yeah, yep,
Speaker 2: every time. Can't not do it happened everywhere, So.
Speaker 1: James, when we left Whim. He had just shattered his
Speaker 1: guts by taking a public enema from a water fountain
Speaker 1: to avoid acknowledging that he'd abandon his family. That said,
Speaker 1: he does eventually come back to the picture. His book
Speaker 1: The Way of the Iceman gives us very little detail
Speaker 1: on the long gap between oleah suicide and his rise
Speaker 1: to prominence right after Later, Wim remarried and had another son.
Speaker 1: We just get this line.
Speaker 2: The children grew up and Hoff looked for more challenges. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they grew up more or less without you, buddy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: helik for challenges. It did not include parenting, are you Yeah?
Speaker 2: Not a challenge you was that interested in. So at
Speaker 2: this point his story jumps ahead to the mid aughts.
Speaker 2: There are not any particularly good or objective sources about
Speaker 2: the reality of his life in this period, so we're
Speaker 2: gonna have to rely on some bad ones. I found
Speaker 2: an article with irishnews dot com that features heavily an
Speaker 2: interview with Laura Hoff. Now today, Laura is involved in
Speaker 2: her father's business in her fire, so not an unbiased
Speaker 2: source without a financial interest in how Wim is seen,
Speaker 2: and her interview does not acknowledge some of the unpleasant
Speaker 2: stories that Scott talks about. But I think her claims
Speaker 2: about what it was like being raised by Wim are
Speaker 2: still worthy of analysis, because, at the very least, if
Speaker 2: this is not accurate to reality, it does show how
Speaker 2: his kids, who are affiliated with his business, think it
Speaker 2: is advantageous for their to be seen. Right yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: sure if this is not an accurate recitation of reality,
Speaker 2: and we do not objectively know what happened with women
Speaker 2: as kids, right yeah yeah. Quote On a cold winters
Speaker 2: day in Amsterdam many years ago, while other parents were
Speaker 2: wrapped up warm to collect their kids from school, Laura
Speaker 2: Hawf recalls her dad turning up in a T shirt,
Speaker 2: shorts and sandals and then doing a bit of yoga
Speaker 2: in the school yard. I think I was raised by
Speaker 2: a very special man, which I only understood later, says
Speaker 2: Laura thirty six, agreeing the childhood that she shared with
Speaker 2: her three siblings was absolutely different than that of her friends.
Speaker 2: We always used to play outside if it was cold,
Speaker 2: it didn't really matter. The weather man never dictated what
Speaker 2: we needed to wear. Now that could be also go
Speaker 2: with whims, basically abandoning them to a squat the fact
Speaker 2: that like no one was there to make sure they
Speaker 2: were dressed brock so we did call clothes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we didn't have any clothes. Laura gives us
Speaker 1: little detail on what Whim's life was like after Oleah's
Speaker 1: suicide and his event return to his family, which she,
Speaker 1: of course has no obligation to do, but it does
Speaker 1: mean that this next period of his life is a
Speaker 1: bit of a black box when it comes to hard facts.
Speaker 1: This is as much as she says about being raised
Speaker 1: by Wim. We were very free. I don't think there
Speaker 1: were any rules. Sometimes you would think, okay, kids need
Speaker 1: some rules. But it was also the best time in
Speaker 1: my life. My father used to play more than we did,
Speaker 1: so he always wanted to go outside with us and
Speaker 1: that was great.
Speaker 2: So I don't know. That's another version of the story
Speaker 2: believe what you want, rather juxtaposed. Yeah.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 1: Wim claims that after his wife's suicide and returned to
Speaker 1: his return to his family, he traveled around the world
Speaker 1: doing what a normal person would call extreme stunts, summarized
Speaker 1: in his idobiography This way, his breathing techniques, yoga and
Speaker 1: cold training gave him enormous strength, and he liked to
Speaker 1: share it with others. The media got him in their sights.
Speaker 1: Encouraged by the attention and the effect it had on
Speaker 1: other people, wim broke record after record. He took the
Speaker 1: longest path in ice. He climbed snow covered mountain peaks
Speaker 1: wearing shorts. He ran a marathon th on in Lapland
Speaker 1: at negative thirty degrees celsius. He swam hundreds of meters
Speaker 1: under ice. His records were reported on television in Japan, Germany, Poland,
Speaker 1: Spain and many other countries. The BBC made a documentary
Speaker 1: about him, and millions of people watched his feats on
Speaker 1: the internet. And again, the way he's talking about his
Speaker 1: early activities is almost as if they like the fame
Speaker 1: that he received. The media coverage was an accident, right,
Speaker 1: The media got him in their sights, as opposed to
Speaker 1: he was kind of a fame hound, and he deliberately
Speaker 1: went out of his way to get covered by the media.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he actively pursued being in the media at any opportunity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like, oh, he just wound up getting
Speaker 1: famous somehow.
Speaker 4: Real.
Speaker 2: Shoot, there's some dudo over that climbing mountain in box
Speaker 2: of shorts. Maybe we should hear a story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, all of these records. The twenty six Guinness
Speaker 1: World Records that he claims to have set are in
Speaker 1: reality somewhat less than accurate, and we'll cover that shortly,
Speaker 1: but for right now, I want to return to another
Speaker 1: one of Whim's claims. He says frequently that after years
Speaker 1: of groundbreaking athletic success, he grew frustrated quote possibly because
Speaker 1: he was still coming to terms with Olea's suicide quote
Speaker 1: from his book. He felt the need to share his
Speaker 1: knowledge and the possibilities of his body with more people.
Speaker 1: Could other people do what he can do? In two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, the renowned Feinstein Institute in New York
Speaker 1: studied Hoff. The results showed that he was able to
Speaker 1: control his autonomic nervous system. For Whim, the results were logical,
Speaker 1: after all, he had trained to do it for many years,
Speaker 1: but the researchers thought he was a medical wonder. From
Speaker 1: then on, Hoff put himself at the disposal of science.
Speaker 1: His main aim was to show others that they could
Speaker 1: also train to do what he does. It was the
Speaker 1: start of a very special time in Whim's life. He
Speaker 1: attracted more and more attention, and those who started using
Speaker 1: his method were wildly enthusiastic. Now, James, I'm gonna admit
Speaker 1: to a potential failure as a researcher here. I have
Speaker 1: definitely found evidence of the Feinstein Center and doctor Tracy
Speaker 1: who runs it, commenting in articles that feature whim Hoff.
Speaker 1: They seem to be connected. I have not come across
Speaker 1: any publication from the Feinstein Center about whim from two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, But two thousand and seven is the
Speaker 1: year that he claims to have run the world's fastest
Speaker 1: half marathon while barefoot on ice or snow in two
Speaker 1: hours and sixteen minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. How much competition is that for that? I don't
Speaker 2: think there's a lot. Yeah, there a previous record.
Speaker 1: First, it is important you remember the qualifier here is
Speaker 1: this is the fastest half marathon barefoot on ice or snow, right,
Speaker 1: not the fastest half marathon, not even the fastest half
Speaker 1: marathon barefoot. Now, this is his only legitimate Guinness World record.
Speaker 1: He did do this, This was verified by Guinness. He
Speaker 1: does hold this record. I do want to note here
Speaker 1: that Whim's time, if you are not using the qualifier
Speaker 1: that that's the fastest half marathon barefoot on or snow,
Speaker 1: is not particularly historic, right, as a half marathon time,
Speaker 1: the current fastest half marathon is fifty nine minutes and
Speaker 1: forty seven seconds, which is insane for thirteen point one miles.
Speaker 1: He wouldn't be record breaking as a marathon time. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it would be good. It'd be very impressed. Two hours
Speaker 1: is great marathon, yesh. But to two and a quarter hours,
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, it's lessened in fast. People are running
Speaker 1: for fast marathonism. So the first hard evidence of scientific
Speaker 1: analysis of Whim's claims that I have is from twenty eleven.
Speaker 1: Wim had by this point turned his experiments in cold
Speaker 1: weather endurance into a lifestyle. He was well known for
Speaker 1: going on long, barefoot runs in the snow and submerging
Speaker 1: himself in ice for long periods of time without shivering.
Speaker 1: A twenty eleven article published by Radboud University's Medical Center
Speaker 1: is the first example I found of him being tested
Speaker 1: by a reputable scientific source. It is notable that this
Speaker 1: early article describes him as the iceman wim Hoff. Radboud's
Speaker 1: researchers were specifically testing Whim's claims that he could influence
Speaker 1: his autonomic, nervous system and immune response through concentration and
Speaker 1: meditation and in that they are talking about what people
Speaker 1: now call wim Hoff breathing, that is a version of
Speaker 1: g tomo breathing. And I'm going to quote from this
Speaker 1: study here. To investigate this, Hoff was administered indotox and
Speaker 1: while practicing his concentration and meditation technique. During this experiment,
Speaker 1: various measurements were performed, including brain activity, autonomic nervous system activity,
Speaker 1: and inflammatory mediators in the blood. One of the researchers said,
Speaker 1: after indotox and administration, the increase of the stress hormone
Speaker 1: cortisol in Hoff was much more pronounced compared to other
Speaker 1: healthy volunteers. We know that this hormone is released in
Speaker 1: response to increased autonomic nervous system activity and that it
Speaker 1: suppresses the immune response. In accordance to the levels of
Speaker 1: inflammatory mediators in Hoff's blood were much lower. On average,
Speaker 1: Hoff's immune response was decreased by fifty percent compared to
Speaker 1: other healthy volunteers. In addition, hardly any flu like symptoms
Speaker 1: were observed. These results are definitely remarkable, so that makes
Speaker 1: it sound like Hoff was able to basically control his
Speaker 1: immune system to reduce his immune response to being mildly poisoned.
Speaker 3: In a way that.
Speaker 1: Reduced his symptoms, which is very impressive sounding, right. If
Speaker 1: that's a thing he was able to do, that is impressive,
Speaker 1: that's interesting. But the paper went on to caution those
Speaker 1: results were only obtained from a single person and thus
Speaker 1: could not serve as evidence for claims that Hoff's techniques
Speaker 1: could influence the immune system in meaningful ways.
Speaker 2: Sure he could just have a weigh response.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we will refer. There's follow ups to this study,
Speaker 1: so we will talk about that in a little bit.
Speaker 1: The year before that twenty eleven study, twenty ten, Hoff
Speaker 1: and his eldest son in Am had set up a
Speaker 1: company called innert Fire to capitalize on the growing fascination
Speaker 1: with Whim and his claims of superhuman abilities granted through
Speaker 1: breathing techniques. They started organizing workshops, first in the Netherlands,
Speaker 1: but then all over the world. Several other of his
Speaker 1: children joined the organization, which grew rapidly as Wim became
Speaker 1: a bonafide celebrity. Now, if you don't recall, the period
Speaker 1: from twenty ten to twenty thirteen was the birth of
Speaker 1: commodified viral content. Online journalists and writers for culture webs
Speaker 1: sites like my old employer crack dot com had a
Speaker 1: voracious appetite for so weird it must be true stories,
Speaker 1: and wim Hoff was perfectly situated to go viral in
Speaker 1: this area. The number one reason for his success was
Speaker 1: his embrace of mainstream scientific studies of his techniques. Hoff
Speaker 1: could do this because g TMO breathing, which is the
Speaker 1: basis of all of his claims, does work in measurable ways.
Speaker 1: In twenty twelve, researchers from Radboud performed that follow up
Speaker 1: study comparing volunteers trained by Hoff and a control group.
Speaker 1: Testes were poisoned lightly, and the immune activation of the
Speaker 1: different groups was studied. An analysis of various studies on
Speaker 1: wim Hoff breathing by the medical journal Temperature notes the
Speaker 1: trained group had significantly increased epinephrine levels, increased levels of
Speaker 1: anti inflammatory cytokin decreased levels of pro inflammatory mediators, and
Speaker 1: less pronounced fever. Also, flu like symptoms were lower in
Speaker 1: the trained group compared with the untrained group, and you
Speaker 1: will find this cited constantly on Whim's website and in
Speaker 1: news articles about which usually the study results are summed
Speaker 1: up as the people who Whim trained were able to
Speaker 1: control their immune systems and avoid sickness. That is not
Speaker 1: what happened, and that journal article continues. The setup of
Speaker 1: the research, however, did not allow discrimination between the acute
Speaker 1: and the acquired responses, because during the experiment itself, the
Speaker 1: volunteers from the intervention group were allowed to hyperventilate and
Speaker 1: the control group was not. Therefore, the investigators included that
Speaker 1: hyperventilation can temporarily activate the sympathetic nervous system and suppress
Speaker 1: the innate immune response a long term yeah, long term
Speaker 1: training effects were not addressed. Therefore, it still needs to
Speaker 1: be sorted out if the training itself, hyperventilation, cold end
Speaker 1: or meditation caused the observed effects. This study also notes
Speaker 1: that the trainees were not just given cyclic hyperventilation training,
Speaker 1: they were immersed in ice cold water, while the control
Speaker 1: group was not. This matters more than you might think.
Speaker 2: Quote.
Speaker 1: Finally, coal may exert health effects. First of all, cold
Speaker 1: may increase energy expenditure by shivering, but also by non
Speaker 1: shivering thermogenesis, as mentioned above. In the recent past, quite
Speaker 1: a few studies from several laboratories showed that humans are
Speaker 1: able to increase their non shivering thermogenesis capacity due to
Speaker 1: cold acclamation. This mirrors numerous studies in rodents. However, the
Speaker 1: study effects in humans are of a smaller magnitude compared
Speaker 1: with these animals. So number one, it's very debatable. There's
Speaker 1: no evidence that there's significant health benefit to this. These
Speaker 1: people had mildly less symptoms than the control group, right
Speaker 1: of this mild poisoning in a controlled situation. And number two,
Speaker 1: there are too many variables that were not isolated for that.
Speaker 1: You can't say, oh, it was because of the breathing
Speaker 1: or the meditation, or it may have just been. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's health benefits to being immersed in cold water, like
Speaker 1: potentially at least short term.
Speaker 2: Ones that buddy was freaking out because yeah it was drowning.
Speaker 1: Yes, you can't say the kinds of things that are claimed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that it was like for people
Speaker 2: who were on the internet back then, Like yeah, that
Speaker 2: was the whole genre of like health viral influencer, right,
Speaker 2: was taking a solid scientific claim and then building gradually
Speaker 2: less and less solid claims on top of that, and
Speaker 2: then grifting off that in too many people you can
Speaker 2: make them happy and healthy and see their lives and such.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway that gives you an idea and you
Speaker 1: can find other studies about Whim. They all have breakdowns
Speaker 1: like that when you actually get into what is being studied. Anyway,
Speaker 1: we will talk a little bit more about this later.
Speaker 1: So that's twenty twelve that that follow up study is
Speaker 1: conducted by Rad Bowd and it is the very next
Speaker 1: year that are ethically questionable. Friend Scott Carney comes onto
Speaker 1: the scene. Twenty thirteen is the year that he met
Speaker 1: Wim Hoff well, and he's he's working on this book
Speaker 1: called The Enlightenment Trap, and he thinks Wim might be
Speaker 1: an interesting subject for it. He kind of wants to
Speaker 1: expose him as a grifter, so he talks Playboy Magus
Speaker 1: into letting him go like hang out and take one
Speaker 1: of Hoff's classes. So yeah, and he specifically writes in
Speaker 1: his more recent article that he wanted to quote debunk
Speaker 1: him as a charlatan trying to sell fake superpowers to
Speaker 1: the masses, which is I think a reasonable way to
Speaker 1: describe Wim Hall.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, he started out just fine.
Speaker 1: So Carney describes Wim in twenty thirteen as quote at
Speaker 1: merse most a circus act. He wore a green hat
Speaker 1: and had a red nose and ruddy skin. That made
Speaker 1: him appear a little gnomish. He was bursting with energy,
Speaker 1: talked loudly, and smelled like an onion. To the extent
Speaker 1: that he was known at all, it was for performing
Speaker 1: death defying stunts in ice water and for a stint
Speaker 1: shilling battery heated jackets for Columbia sportswear, not for possessing
Speaker 1: valuable insights on the mind body connection. Yeah yeah real,
Speaker 1: uh yeah, I didn't feel like they had a fallout.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's something happened here.
Speaker 2: M hmm.
Speaker 1: It is interesting because, like he describes in this period
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, he was like a big media figure
Speaker 1: in this part of Europe, but he was kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, a little bit of a carny, you know,
Speaker 1: someone who you would show these gimmick jackets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like a Joe Exotica of like doing this stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, like he's famous but not necessarily respected. I
Speaker 2: guess yeah, I would. I would say that.
Speaker 1: So Scott gets to work studying Whim and listening to
Speaker 1: his classes, and he finds himself, as he says, flabbergasted
Speaker 1: by the fact that Whim's techniques really do work. There's
Speaker 1: powerful benefits to this stuff. That's how Scott describes it.
Speaker 3: Quote.
Speaker 1: Within a few days, I learned to hold my breath
Speaker 1: for several minutes at a stretch and heat my body
Speaker 1: in the snow. An autoimmune illness that had plagued me
Speaker 1: for thirty years went away. A few years later, I
Speaker 1: climbed shirtless up Mount Kilimanjaro with Hoff. When the temperature
Speaker 1: dipped into minus thirty degrees. There was no doubt about it.
Speaker 1: I was a convert. Soon I became as chief evangelist,
Speaker 1: not only writing the book What Doesn't Kill Us, which
Speaker 1: spent a few months on the New York Times bestseller list,
Speaker 1: appearing from more than three hundred media engagements, from TV
Speaker 1: shows and news articles to radio programs and podcasts, where
Speaker 1: I preached the good news.
Speaker 2: That's so weird. Like, I don't know, man, I've written
Speaker 2: Abassi people like mine. I've writen ABAUSI people like hey,
Speaker 2: but I've never like, done three hundred podcast interviews about
Speaker 2: how great anyone is like it. He kind of seems
Speaker 2: to have moved from journalism to part of this Hoff
Speaker 2: grift at this point. Yeah, So.
Speaker 1: It's at this point that we should probably talk about
Speaker 1: Mount Kilimanjaro. James, because Kilimanjaro is central to Whim's claims
Speaker 1: of supernatural ability. It features heavily in all of his stories,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to quote first from his how his
Speaker 1: conquest of that infamous mountain is described by Rolling Stone
Speaker 1: article Eric Headiguard in a twenty seventeen article, he attempted
Speaker 1: to scale Mount Everest wearing nothing but shorts and shoes,
Speaker 1: but was thwarted by a foot injury. He tackled Mount
Speaker 1: Kilimanjaro next wearing only shorts and shoe and reach the
Speaker 1: top in less than two days and unheard of feet. So, James,
Speaker 1: that's not thankfully he has given us some stuff to
Speaker 1: dig in do here. So the first question we should
Speaker 1: ask ourselves is it an unheard of feet to reach
Speaker 1: Kilimanjaro and the top of Kilimanjaro in less than two days?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: Is that exceptionally rare?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: The current world record, and this is fucking nuts, by
Speaker 1: the way, the current world record for an individual climb
Speaker 1: and descent of Kilimanjaro is six hours and forty two minutes.
Speaker 2: That is fass. That is fucking nuts. That is mountain running.
Speaker 2: That is fucking yeah. That is wild. I don't I
Speaker 2: actually don't know how that's physically possible, but it apparently
Speaker 2: has been. Yeah, the altitude change. I haven't. I've been
Speaker 2: up the other two highest mountains in Africa, a High
Speaker 2: Atlas and Mount Kenya. But yeah, that you've ever done
Speaker 2: higher than fourteen k for a peak, and like that
Speaker 2: is a thing, you know, like fucking and this is
Speaker 2: like so, by the way, Carl Eggloff of Switzerland is
Speaker 2: the guy who did that. Obviously it is Swiss. Dude,
Speaker 2: not surprised. Yeah, I had it down for being like
Speaker 2: someone from tanzanierro Kenyero somewhere.
Speaker 1: I mean, and it is like when we are talking
Speaker 1: about Kilimanjaro. The peak of Kilimanjaro is nineteen thousand feet
Speaker 1: above sea level. It is sixteen thousand feet above its
Speaker 1: base plateau. That's the topographical prominence, which is a commonly
Speaker 1: used measure for the difficulty of climbing a mountain.
Speaker 2: Basically, it's like.
Speaker 1: Because you have a lot of peaks that might be
Speaker 1: like sixteen thousand feet, maybe they were only like a
Speaker 1: two thousand foot hike or whatever above kind of the
Speaker 1: ridge or whatever. So yeah, Kilimanjaro has the fourth highest
Speaker 1: topographical prominence of any peak on Earth, which makes it,
Speaker 1: you know, by any widely accepted mountaineering metric, one of
Speaker 1: the harder mountains out there to climb. So hey, whim
Speaker 1: is bullshitting about his time up to the top of
Speaker 1: Kilimanjaro being particularly exceptional. But hiking to the top of
Speaker 1: Kilimanjaro in shorts and shoes does seem impressive, and it's
Speaker 1: certainly not a bad time. But he generally fails to
Speaker 1: note that he didn't actually summit Kilimanjara. He didn't actually
Speaker 1: reach the he didn't reach the top summit of Kilimanjaro.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote here from a write up
Speaker 1: by Pepisien von Erp, a mathematician from Radboud University, which
Speaker 1: is the same school that carried out the experiments that
Speaker 1: initially seemed to verify Hoff's incredible claims. Quote wim Hoff
Speaker 1: and the group of pioneers started on January fourteenth at
Speaker 1: an altitude of eighteen hundred meters. From there, they marched
Speaker 1: onto a camp at thirty seven hundred meters. They stayed
Speaker 1: there during the night and went early in the morning
Speaker 1: to break through the top at five thoy six hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty five meters. Gilman's point, this tempo would normally
Speaker 1: not have been possible because of the acclimization time used
Speaker 1: to prevent altitude seekness. But wait a second, Gilman's point,
Speaker 1: that's not the actual summit of Kilimanjarro, is it, wim Hoff,
Speaker 1: And it is in fact one of three official summit
Speaker 1: points on the mountain, but not the actual peak, which
Speaker 1: is a houru peak, which is where the dude who
Speaker 1: made the trek in less than seven hours reached and
Speaker 1: then made it back down. So again you can get
Speaker 1: some insight into the nature of Whim's personal sort of
Speaker 1: like pr tactics here. Right, any normal person would consider
Speaker 1: reaching Gilman's peak with a group of largely untrained hikers
Speaker 1: and getting back down in two days or less to
Speaker 1: be impressive, and doing it in shorts extra impressive. But
Speaker 1: that's not going to go viral, right, because you're not
Speaker 1: breaking any records. You know, you're doing a pretty good
Speaker 1: time and a pretty impressive thing, but you're not doing
Speaker 1: anything that's like going a win you an award, And
Speaker 1: so you've got to kind of jink the truth in
Speaker 1: order to get something that's gonna be real easy to
Speaker 1: like go viral. In an article or whatever.
Speaker 2: And like choosing Kilimanjara is a choice, right, Like it's
Speaker 2: a big ass mountain and it's a great achievement to
Speaker 2: climb it. But it's not a technical climb, No, it's
Speaker 2: you know, like it's something you could, like people do
Speaker 2: kill a manjar in their retirement if that's the kind
Speaker 2: of thing they enjoy, and you could spend a lot
Speaker 2: of money, I have someone carry all your stuff, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: for something that sounds super impressive, like it's not Everest.
Speaker 2: And yeah, he compares him in the same paragraph in
Speaker 2: that piece you read a second ago. Yeah, it's very
Speaker 2: I know he's taken like one point of truth and
Speaker 2: extrapolated exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: And the way that he phrases things, he's always got
Speaker 1: a defense if people call him out, because if someone's like, well,
Speaker 1: but you didn't actually do it this way, he can
Speaker 1: always be like, well, no, what I meant is that
Speaker 1: no one else hiked up at this time without a
Speaker 1: shirt or wearing shorts, or with an untrained group of hikers. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's the shortest time for someone doing all those
Speaker 1: things because like no.
Speaker 2: One keeps track of that shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like if I were to climb up kill
Speaker 1: him in Jarro in like five days and be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I did it the fastest anyone's ever done it.
Speaker 1: In my head full of cocaine, I was like, well,
Speaker 1: nobody's really keeping.
Speaker 2: Track of that. Yeah, fastest guy named Robert Evans he
Speaker 2: his doing coca at the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I beat that other Robert Evans. He didn't
Speaker 1: even make it up to kill him in Jarrow when
Speaker 1: he was on No, I don't do cocaine, folks, just
Speaker 1: just good old fashioned gas station adderall you know. That's
Speaker 1: the that's the healthy thing to do.
Speaker 2: Is that the stuff that's by when you check out,
Speaker 2: it's quickly get giant drugger bills and I mix him
Speaker 2: with Creton. We call that a seven eleven speedball, buddy.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll suppressed on posting your buddies natural responses when
Speaker 2: you do that. Let me tell you you sure will
Speaker 2: way better than Whim. Can we gotta line you up
Speaker 2: with some Dutch scientists, buddy, This could be a whole thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's when you read Whim's book that it becomes
Speaker 1: clear he wants his followers to believe no one else
Speaker 1: can manage the hike in the time that he did quote,
Speaker 1: Haff decided he would climb Mount kill Him and jar
Speaker 1: with a group of people. Kill Him and Jarro was
Speaker 1: a five eight hundred ninety five meter three point sixty
Speaker 1: six mile high mountain in Tanzania. It's a very popular
Speaker 1: expedition for mountaineers and hikers. Well trained climbers can get
Speaker 1: to the top in six days. To make the challenge
Speaker 1: even greater, Haff wanted to climb Killiman Jarrow in forty
Speaker 1: eight hours with a group of twenty six people. Haff
Speaker 1: wanted to show that we're all people of doing much
Speaker 1: more than most people think is even possible with excess
Speaker 1: this expedition too, everyone said it was impossible to get
Speaker 1: up to the top in forty eight hours with such
Speaker 1: a large group. As if that wasn't enough, some of
Speaker 1: the people in the group were suffering from diseases like
Speaker 1: multiple sclerosis, rheumatism, Crohn's disease and cancer. They also had
Speaker 1: no climbing experience. The date was set for January twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: and the run up to the expedition was chaotic. Doctor
Speaker 1: Girt Bougies of the Amsterdam Medical Center wanted to accompany
Speaker 1: the expedition in a personal capacity to help the group.
Speaker 1: The local guides thought the whole thing was a bad idea.
Speaker 1: At the last moment, the guides decided not to go. However,
Speaker 1: Hoff was resolute this group was capable of reaching the
Speaker 1: top by focusing on their breathing, and because they had
Speaker 1: prepared with cold training, so they went. When the group
Speaker 1: arrived at Horombo Hut, a small huddle of climbing huts
Speaker 1: at an altitude of three thousand, seven hundred and five meters,
Speaker 1: the temperature had fallen to three degrees celsius thirty seven
Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit. As if climbing to the top of kilimanjar
Speaker 1: in forty eight hours with twenty six people, many of
Speaker 1: whom were ill, was not enough, Whim suggested they walk
Speaker 1: bare chested and in shorts, breathing in cold training were
Speaker 1: the seat secrets. And again, if that is the way
Speaker 1: that it actually went, that's impressive enough. But again Whims,
Speaker 1: it's dumb, though, But Whim's got a lie and it's
Speaker 1: not like superhuman again he's lying about like it's almost
Speaker 1: well tra Only well trained climbers can get to the
Speaker 1: top and less than six days, no man people are
Speaker 1: up and down that thing. Someone has done it in
Speaker 1: less than seven hours. Yeah, just not to say like
Speaker 1: everyone can do that. Obviously that's an extreme thing, but
Speaker 1: like six days is it's not like it doesn't it's
Speaker 1: not like impossible to do in less than six days.
Speaker 2: And you're like you're doing cue declamation right, like when
Speaker 2: you're doing that six seven to ten days whatever you're doing,
Speaker 2: like you're you're taking time to acclimate to different altitudes. Yeah, it,
Speaker 2: I know, like I have a I don't know why
Speaker 2: this one upsets me so much. I think having done
Speaker 2: some walking up mountains, like if your guide says, noah,
Speaker 2: fuck it, I'm not going that's dumb, you're like, don't go,
Speaker 2: because that same guide is going to be on a
Speaker 2: search and rescue team finding your dumb ass and like
Speaker 2: risking their life to try and help you, and that
Speaker 2: that's not okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's being really reckless here. And I've been reckless
Speaker 1: doing a mountain climb before that was ill advised, but
Speaker 1: not with twenty six people I was responsible for. You know,
Speaker 1: Like again it's about like who you in danger and
Speaker 1: like yeah, and I shouldn't have done the climb that
Speaker 1: I did, but it was a it's it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's this claiming that, like what you're doing
Speaker 1: is somehow like impossible. No one thought we could do it.
Speaker 2: It's like no, man, like, people have done much more
Speaker 2: impressive things on Kilimanjaro than what you did routing it,
Speaker 2: not in like oh I'm just a gryfto or I
Speaker 2: just wanted to see if I could do it even
Speaker 2: or I wanted to do something odd, but being like, oh,
Speaker 2: I did it for everyone so everyone could see what
Speaker 2: they're capable of, Like, no you didn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad no one died this time, but that
Speaker 1: may be evidence of the fact that, like, Kilimanjaro is
Speaker 1: a mountain that you can get away with that on
Speaker 1: as opposed to Everest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah, someone would die or like K two whatever.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so send send him up K two. That's
Speaker 2: a challenge for me to shirt listen. Yeah, yeah, if
Speaker 2: you think you're.
Speaker 1: Hard from two thousand, actually you know, first off, James,
Speaker 1: you know who is hard?
Speaker 2: People who buy the products from these Yeah, because we've
Speaker 2: got dick pills. That's right, we do have dick pills.
Speaker 2: God willing you know, Uh, gotcha we'll get more dick pills. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so hopefully.
Speaker 1: Yeah, grab some dick pills, grab some Trucker amphetamines and
Speaker 1: uh you know, grab on the gas station, create and
Speaker 1: mix them all together. See what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, run up about That's how they did
Speaker 2: it in six hours man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know how. You know how weightlifters talk about
Speaker 1: muscle confusion. Confuse all of your organs.
Speaker 3: You know what.
Speaker 1: Just take every pill in the gas station and see
Speaker 1: what it does to you.
Speaker 2: That's the key. You have some road records for sure,
Speaker 2: you sure will highest hot rate by you.
Speaker 1: So from twenty fourteen on, Whim's fame picked up by
Speaker 1: leaps and bounds, Inner Fire became a popular lifestyle wellness
Speaker 1: brand for celebrities interested in pushing the extremes of human capacity.
Speaker 1: Harrison Ford ragged about taking his classes on a live
Speaker 1: talk show appearance, and he was far from the A
Speaker 1: lot of celebrities are into Wim Hoff breathing. I've done
Speaker 1: his stuff. Wim was a regular guest on the Tim
Speaker 1: Ferris Show. That's one of the big things that made
Speaker 1: him huge, Tim Ferriss is the four hour work week
Speaker 1: and the four hour body. He does all of these
Speaker 1: like hacking, like body hacking and productivity hacking.
Speaker 2: Is he the bulletproof coffee guy. No, no, No, that's
Speaker 2: a different guy. That's it. But I think that guy's
Speaker 2: been on Tim Ferris's show. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And one of the claims that Wim made on Tim
Speaker 1: show was that he could speak ten languages fluently, which
Speaker 1: is an impress I've known some people who are that
Speaker 1: kind of polyglot. I've had some fixers who were that
Speaker 1: kind of polyglot, you know, vict.
Speaker 2: Victor Boot, famous multiple language guys.
Speaker 1: Maya, my Arabic teacher, learned Mandarin over the course of
Speaker 1: a year. Is like a ida hobby, like the way
Speaker 1: some people get into like basketball or something. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: he's a language genius. You know, some people are like that.
Speaker 2: So that's an enviable skill.
Speaker 1: It is a very It's the most enviable skill in
Speaker 1: my opinion. And I can't say that Wim can't do this.
Speaker 1: I don't know if Wim can speak ten languages fluently.
Speaker 1: I do know that Wim stretches the truth about a lot,
Speaker 1: and he's probably stretching the truth about this. But because
Speaker 1: Tim Ferriss is also one fan describes him as a
Speaker 1: language hacker. He asks whim, how did you learn ten languages?
Speaker 1: And Whim answers, just be open and love to learn,
Speaker 1: and that's it. I had no real teachers, you know,
Speaker 1: people in the street, and sometimes I had to look
Speaker 1: for a teacher, like a Japanese teacher here in Amsterdam
Speaker 1: and a Hindu teacher. So yeah, I was just interested.
Speaker 1: If you are interested in life and you get to
Speaker 1: know and you never stop learning because you love it.
Speaker 2: I don't think he speaks English fluently. Yeah, that's that's
Speaker 2: not a statement. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think he meant Hindi and not Gendu.
Speaker 2: I was wondering what was going on there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so anyway, but that's understandable, right if he's like,
Speaker 1: if he's not his language, English isn't perfect, maybe he
Speaker 1: might mess that up. So appearances with Joe Rogan and
Speaker 1: other extreme sports affiliated media personalities followed, and WiM's portfolio
Speaker 1: of braggadocio expanded too. Kilimanjaro was always one of his
Speaker 1: chief claims to fame, but he soon added the claim
Speaker 1: that he had broken twenty six world records. This is
Speaker 1: again untrue. He currently holds one Guinness World record for
Speaker 1: that half marathon, but it is easily Whim's most boring
Speaker 1: lie because there's not even a fun story here.
Speaker 2: He's just full of shit. But papers including like that's
Speaker 2: he's done an enemer in a while, buddy, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: he needs to get to get a shit out that'll
Speaker 2: clean the truth up here.
Speaker 1: But like a lot I found, like Rolling Stone and
Speaker 1: Guardian articles, all sorts of articles that will just repeat
Speaker 1: the twenty six world records thing. Sometimes they hedge their bets,
Speaker 1: being like he claims to have won this, but rarely
Speaker 1: do they actually dig into the fact that like, no,
Speaker 1: we didn't.
Speaker 2: He just didn't. He just didn't do this. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, many major outlets have often been willing to lend
Speaker 1: credence to Whim's claims. By far, the greatest ally he's
Speaker 1: had as a grifter are the podcasts of guys like
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan. Probably my favorite example of this is quite
Speaker 1: mild by comparison, but I found it funny. And one
Speaker 1: talk with Rogan, he was making his usual bold claims
Speaker 1: of having gained control of his immune system, and Joe asked,
Speaker 1: you're able to deal with malaria, and Wim responded, yes,
Speaker 1: he was, and further, he would be willing to get
Speaker 1: infected with malaria for.
Speaker 2: Science to prove his resilience. And all I gotta say is, please,
Speaker 2: let's do this. Yeah, whim get the number one killer
Speaker 2: of human beings across the the AONs of time that
Speaker 2: we've existed and infect yourself as a bit Jesus, as
Speaker 2: someone who's had fact you do not want to do
Speaker 2: that as a bit or not that will It's again,
Speaker 2: it's like fucking with uh, like with Mount Everest, Like
Speaker 2: you just don't want to do that, right, Yeah, you
Speaker 2: can fuck around with like you know, when they're doing
Speaker 2: these studies, they'll inject them with a little bit of poison, right,
Speaker 2: that be a mild flu. You don't fuck around with malaria,
Speaker 2: like with malaria pills, like with the medicine that you
Speaker 2: take to avoid getting it has pretty serious sight effects. Yes,
Speaker 2: it does that stuff. I have seen some sunburns. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah, where did Rogan plug that one from?
Speaker 4: You?
Speaker 2: Guys like, oh yeah, I can control my immune system.
Speaker 2: And he's just like, yeah, you want to do malaria.
Speaker 2: You want to take some malaria with me? So God,
Speaker 2: the good that would do to the world if we
Speaker 2: could get both of those men into a malaria challenge.
Speaker 2: Both get them to take it.
Speaker 3: No, man, if you really want to d MT's pussy ship,
Speaker 3: if you really want to like learn some stuff about yourself, bro,
Speaker 3: you got to take malaria homes like that's how you
Speaker 3: fucking learn you're tough.
Speaker 2: Really fucking hated that.
Speaker 4: And the listeners don't get the horrifying visual of you
Speaker 4: that coming from your face.
Speaker 2: It's just yeah, oh it's beautiful ruining. Okay, So yeah,
Speaker 2: you've ruined malaria, Robert. Yeah, you, Hilaria is gonna get
Speaker 2: canceled now. Yeah, chick and Gunya is right there wanting
Speaker 2: to take it spot the whole time.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm.
Speaker 2: I was going to go with the sleeping sickness. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so like that.
Speaker 1: Much of Whim's success with shoddy journalists and podcast hosts
Speaker 1: lies in the low level of scientific literacy in this
Speaker 1: country and his skill at pulling out technobabble that would
Speaker 1: make a star trek writer blush. One of Whim's favorite
Speaker 1: claims is that his hyperventilation techniques allow someone to reach
Speaker 1: levels of oxygen saturation above one hundred percent in their blood.
Speaker 2: Now, jam, so neither of us are doctors here, but
Speaker 2: can you pick out where the scientific irregularity might be there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it's a it's run around in the no
Speaker 2: of a PERCENTAGEES is a thing. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 4: I think in this next session we should have James
Speaker 4: read the part of whim.
Speaker 2: You're right, You're right, James.
Speaker 1: We're going to read a transcript from that October twenty
Speaker 1: sixteen interview on the Joe Rogan podcast where he makes
Speaker 1: this claim and Joe questions him, I'm gonna.
Speaker 2: Be Joe Rogan. Okay, Oh I love that for you.
Speaker 1: Okay, and you'll you'll be whim all right, So Sophie's
Speaker 1: gonna Sophie's gonna send them.
Speaker 2: I gonna do my Dutch accent. Yeah, do your dut no,
Speaker 2: be real offensive with it. Yeah yeah, I'll do my
Speaker 2: offensive Joe Rogan accent. Yeah, I'll just say, what does
Speaker 2: it do? It's called from a chimney. People who don't
Speaker 2: understand the Dutch tradition of shwata pete uh not understand
Speaker 2: that joke.
Speaker 1: Here we go, here's me as Joe Rogan, but there
Speaker 1: is nothing more than one hundred percent. They had a
Speaker 1: level that they thought was one hundred percent, and then
Speaker 1: they said nobody had reached a higher level than this,
Speaker 1: So it must be what one hundred percent saturation looks like.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. It's not that you got more than one
Speaker 2: hundred percent saturation, it's that you achieved higher levels of
Speaker 2: saturation than they thought possible. Yeah exactly. They did it
Speaker 2: with a laser on the chest and then they were
Speaker 2: able to measure the mitochondria oxygen tension. They're able to
Speaker 2: receive more oxygen. That's a great finding. It shows we
Speaker 2: can have more oxygen inside. Suddenly we're able to get
Speaker 2: into the cell and influence the energy production. If it
Speaker 2: is anaerobic, it is like two molecules able to produce.
Speaker 2: When it becomes aerobic, then it's thirty eight molecules they
Speaker 2: can produce. What happens What happens with a cell that
Speaker 2: is deprived for forty eight hours of thirty five percent
Speaker 2: less oxygen, It becomes cancerous? As simple as that. Have
Speaker 2: you ever worked more cancer patients? I want to, But
Speaker 2: it's very complicated. Thank god for that.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, none of that means anything. That's bullshit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is not fucking That is not science. They have
Speaker 1: talked to medical experts, They have talked to doctors for
Speaker 1: and Scott Carney had to try to get this like translated.
Speaker 2: It's nonsense.
Speaker 4: Those are two people using words that they think means
Speaker 4: something that don't mean what they think they mean. But
Speaker 4: they they've properly learned how to pronounce them and are
Speaker 4: just using them in ways that don't actually.
Speaker 2: Make well and it's pretty just writing.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's inconceivable and nonsensical.
Speaker 1: Well, Joe and and Joe is even a little worse
Speaker 1: there because he recognizes as soon as Whim makes his
Speaker 1: first set of claims that they've achieved, he says, like,
Speaker 1: we had oxygen saturation of one hundred three percent. Joe
Speaker 1: knows that's impossible, so he's like, you meant this right,
Speaker 1: and then Whim like just goes off on a limb
Speaker 1: using technobabble that like again does not is not accurate.
Speaker 1: This is not what is happening, is not what happens
Speaker 1: with people who do his breathing techniques. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: does show kind of the degree of I would say,
Speaker 1: like collusion that Rogan has to try to protect his guests.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's trying to. It's a narrative being like, no,
Speaker 2: we have to make this credible, Like Steer in this direction. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and office is resolutely sticking to his absolute bullshit, fucking nonsense. Yeah,
Speaker 2: absolutely not being made credible.
Speaker 1: Whim's dedication to this bullshit has caused consternation to some
Speaker 1: of the honest researchers who studied his techniques for years
Speaker 1: because they were impressed with some of the benefits that
Speaker 1: those techniques.
Speaker 2: Might have had.
Speaker 1: Scott Carney quotes Brian mackenzie, a breathwork expert who worked
Speaker 1: with Whim for years before being turned off by his
Speaker 1: pseudo scientific claims. McKenzie says that, in his opinion, no
Speaker 1: person at enter Fire has a meaningful grasp of the
Speaker 1: physiology behind their techniques. Woodo van markin Liechtenbelt, a professor
Speaker 1: of health at must Strict University, was studied off terms
Speaker 1: his scientific vocabulary galimattius, a rare word for nonsense.
Speaker 2: Quote.
Speaker 1: He mixes in a nonsensical way scientific terms as irrefutable evidence.
Speaker 2: That's literally what I just said it okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Wooder just uses a fancier word. Yeah, Sophie's been sided.
Speaker 4: Literally what I just said. I'm a professor of absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1: You're well, that's right, that's right now. Wooder wrote that
Speaker 1: article in the Journal of Temperature that I quoted from earlier,
Speaker 1: and he has explained scientifically how some of Whim's most
Speaker 1: apparently impressive accomplishments are less than what they seem. A
Speaker 1: good example is his famous ability to remain submerged in
Speaker 1: ice water for significant periods of time without shivering. Wooder
Speaker 1: notes that upon exiting the ice he does shiver like
Speaker 1: anyone else, and that while he has adapted to the
Speaker 1: cold to a degree most of us would find impressive,
Speaker 1: many other people have shown shown similar capacity without following
Speaker 1: his methods quote. The conclusion must be that nothing miraculous occurred.
Speaker 1: Although a non shivering thermogenesis of forty percent is considered
Speaker 1: as high, it is not that extreme. I think wim
Speaker 1: Hoff withstands the cold in the ice cubes through a
Speaker 1: combination of several factors, an increased heat production, non shivering thermogenesis,
Speaker 1: brown fat activation, contraction, respiratory muscles efficiently increasing body tissue
Speaker 1: insulation fasoconstriction, thereby reducing heat loss and conserving the body
Speaker 1: core heat content. And finally, perhaps not unimportantly, he used
Speaker 1: his well trained mental ability to endure the cold, change
Speaker 1: of mindset as he calls it. As soon as he
Speaker 1: steps out of the ice, he starts shivering just as
Speaker 1: everyone else, due to the redistribution of the cool blood
Speaker 1: from his limbs to the body core, also known as
Speaker 1: the after drop effect. Now, one of the things we
Speaker 1: will note is that there is evidence in some of
Speaker 1: these studies that the people who train with Whims show
Speaker 1: benefits beyond those normally associated with g tamo breathing. Those benefits, though,
Speaker 1: are in line with the fact that he is very
Speaker 1: good at motivating people. He is a good teacher in
Speaker 1: his ability to make people excited and feel both comfortable
Speaker 1: and safe and good about themselves so that they will
Speaker 1: explore pushing the limits of their bodies beyond what they
Speaker 1: might normally do. And that is to the extent that
Speaker 1: there's anything extra going on with Whim's training, it's that
Speaker 1: he's really good at making people feel comfortable experimenting and
Speaker 1: taking risks they might not otherwise take. And on the
Speaker 1: level of that where it doesn't go badly, it has
Speaker 1: a pretty profound impact on people. Right when you are
Speaker 1: convinced to try something you didn't think you can do
Speaker 1: that is difficult and uncomfortable and a little scary and
Speaker 1: then you succeed, you feel great, Yes, right, super empowering.
Speaker 1: It's very empowering when you deal it with a group
Speaker 1: of people. You can become very close to those people, right,
Speaker 1: and if there's someone who leads you through it, like
Speaker 1: that person can become a guru.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: It can engender and almost religious mania. This is why
Speaker 1: a lot of we talk about like all these different
Speaker 1: kind of cults and stuff that have they'll get people
Speaker 1: in a group and have them like yelling and and
Speaker 1: insulting and attacking each other, or they'll all focus on
Speaker 1: like abusing one person, which is a lot less healthy
Speaker 1: than kind of the way whim does it. But the
Speaker 1: goal is the same, right to have an intense, extreme
Speaker 1: experience that pushes people beyond some limit they had set
Speaker 1: for themselves, and that can cause them to have a
Speaker 1: degree of like almost religious faith in the person who
Speaker 1: led them through it. Right, it's guru syndrome, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you see anal kinds of things, and it's
Speaker 2: why it can be so empowering. Like it's why we
Speaker 2: run like outward bound programs for people with disabilities or
Speaker 2: people with injuries, Like I've worked on some of those,
Speaker 2: and it's one of the coolest things to do. If
Speaker 2: you've you don't before you turn into a total piece
Speaker 2: of shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the problem with whim right, because you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of aspects of what he's doing are certainly
Speaker 1: healthier than I don't know, the kinds of like training
Speaker 1: that some of these like weird drug abuse cults and
Speaker 1: stuff would do, where they'd have everyone shouting at each
Speaker 1: other in a circle.
Speaker 2: Sure, a lot less.
Speaker 1: Toxic than that, But there is an alleged body count
Speaker 1: to the way Hoff's training works. Before we get to that,
Speaker 1: we are building to that. There are a couple of
Speaker 1: other lies I want to bust of. His first one
Speaker 1: involves the claim sometimes made that he summitted or at
Speaker 1: least got close to summoning Mount Everest in shorts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I forgot about that. Yeah, you'll hear that. Sometimes he
Speaker 1: aborted his attempt at ever of Everest slightly past base
Speaker 1: camp because he got frostbite. Because again, you tried to
Speaker 1: do the shit he's done other places. You can't fuck
Speaker 1: around with Everest. It's Mount Everest. It kills you, It
Speaker 1: kills people all the time. It doesn't give a fuck.
Speaker 1: The other is his claim that he holds the world
Speaker 1: record for longest swim underneath an ice flow without breathing equipment.
Speaker 1: Here is a segment of his response to a twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two Guardian interview that gives you an idea of
Speaker 1: how that one tends to sound. There was a moment
Speaker 1: swimming under the ice when I found myself. I lost
Speaker 1: my way because my corny is froze underwater. I had
Speaker 1: no goggles on, just shorts holding my breath. I was
Speaker 1: under a meter thick layer of ice in Finland, lost
Speaker 1: and blind, but I never felt like I was drowning,
Speaker 1: no panic or pain. I felt at peace and in control.
Speaker 1: That experience brought me so much, and the end of
Speaker 1: safety diver brought me back by pulling me by the
Speaker 1: ankles to the exit hole, which I'd passed long ago.
Speaker 1: I did a huge gasp per air when I came up.
Speaker 1: In that moment, I conquered the fear of death. Now
Speaker 1: I'm not afraid of dying. I'm afraid not to live.
Speaker 2: Fucking me.
Speaker 1: Of course, First off, he didn't need to do that. Second,
Speaker 1: like every other fantastic claim, Whim makes, his recollections here
Speaker 1: do not jive with the record, and it's here that
Speaker 1: I'm going to return to Scott Carney's Miaculpa rite up.
Speaker 1: All was not as it seemed that day. In the
Speaker 1: twenty eleven book Becoming the Ice Man, Haff wrote that
Speaker 1: he almost died on his first attempt under the ice.
Speaker 1: On that try, he ignored his own safety protocols and
Speaker 1: tried to sprint twice the planned distance without telling anyone
Speaker 1: on the crew. Afterwards, Hoff claims his eyes froze under
Speaker 1: the water and he lost his way, and that he
Speaker 1: was lucky a rescue diver found him after he blacked
Speaker 1: out and brought him to the surface. His brother, Marcel,
Speaker 1: who was standing on the ice above him that day,
Speaker 1: remembers it differently. He took it too far and blacked out,
Speaker 1: Marcel says. He recalls Hoff performing his staple breathing exercise
Speaker 1: of his method, deliberately hyperventilating just before his underwater swim.
Speaker 1: According to Marcel, it's just as likely that Haff experienced
Speaker 1: shallow water blackout as his failure was to frozen eyeballs.
Speaker 1: There's no reason it couldn't have been both.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I like, I don't know if this
Speaker 2: is a spoiler, but like hyperventilating will cause you to
Speaker 2: have shallow water blackout and so well sprinting underwater. Yeah,
Speaker 2: which is why you shouldn't do it. Yeah, absolutely, do
Speaker 2: not do this shit. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Be again, the water a lot like Mount Everest, deserves
Speaker 1: your respect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, where supposed to be there. Yeah, we are particularly
Speaker 2: not supposed to be underneath ice sheets. It's very alien
Speaker 2: to us. You must be extremely careful. Yeah. I've watched
Speaker 2: Abatatu wave the water and I understand that. I understand
Speaker 2: a lot more now, but yeah, you are not welcome. Well,
Speaker 2: the water is a lovely place and people should go
Speaker 2: underneath it, but like, don't be pushing your limits and hyperventilating.
Speaker 2: I take a course from some.
Speaker 1: Care take training. Go with a group, have rescue equipment available,
Speaker 1: lots of safe ways to be in the water, ways
Speaker 1: to mitigate risk, you know, in the water.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yes, if he hadn't had not just a buddy, a
Speaker 1: whole team of people with significant equipment like a diver
Speaker 1: in gear underneath ready right Yeah yeah, and he's still
Speaker 1: very nearly died. Yeah, this is why people.
Speaker 2: I don't know if he took a rope, but like
Speaker 2: people traditionally free diving for recors like rope dive down. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then they have safety divers at every height to
Speaker 2: accompany them in case they prop out. But because he
Speaker 2: goes twice the fucking distance, I don't know when he
Speaker 2: did that or not, Like, yeah, you will die. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So this and numerous videos of him enduring ice water baths,
Speaker 1: spending time fully submerged in ice water, all that kind
Speaker 1: of shit. This is all critical to the wim Hoff
Speaker 1: legend and also the deadliest part of it. And introduce
Speaker 1: this segment. I'm going to quote from an article by
Speaker 1: Outside Online August tenth, twenty twenty two. A southern California
Speaker 1: lawyer named Rafael Metzger was at home was at his
Speaker 1: home in Long Beach with his seventeen year old daughter,
Speaker 1: Madeline Rose Metzger. After a busy afternoon a phone calls
Speaker 1: and work, Rafaele left his home office to start dinner.
Speaker 1: He searched the house for Madeline, eventually walking to the
Speaker 1: backyard to see if she was taking a dip in
Speaker 1: the family's swimming pool. He saw her laying face down
Speaker 1: in the water, motionless. Rafael attempted CPR, but to no avail.
Speaker 1: Paramedics later arrived at the house and also tried to
Speaker 1: resuscitate her, but she was gone. Two days after the accident,
Speaker 1: a medical examiner from the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office
Speaker 1: told Rafael that Madeleine had died of accidental drowning. Her
Speaker 1: toxicology tests were clean, they said, and there was no
Speaker 1: sign of physical abnormality like a heart arrhythmia. Madeleine put
Speaker 1: on her bathing suit, went to the pool to cool
Speaker 1: off and to reduce anxiety following an argument with Tammy Metzger,
Speaker 1: and she did whim hoff breathing. The suit states she
Speaker 1: became hypoxic and thereupon drowned in the shallow water, despite
Speaker 1: being an excellent swimmer. The lawsuit from the Metzger family
Speaker 1: accuses Tammy and Hoff of negligence in Madeleine's death. It
Speaker 1: also Levy's charges of fraudulent concealment, unfair business practices, and
Speaker 1: false advertisement against Hoff and Inner Fire. Defendants were either
Speaker 1: aware of or culpably indifferent too unnecessary risks of injury.
Speaker 1: Rafael Metzger is seeking sixty seven million dollars in damages
Speaker 1: and also asking courts to require Hoff to post warnings
Speaker 1: on his website and promotional materials that the method is
Speaker 1: dangerous and should never be done in water due to
Speaker 1: the risk of drowning and death. We were shocked to
Speaker 1: hear that such a young girl round and in ham
Speaker 1: Hoff told outside shocked by the allegations, which don't make
Speaker 1: any sense to us.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's gonna it's gonna kill you. It's yeah,
Speaker 2: it's somewhat remarkable that I know he has a body count.
Speaker 2: I guess it's very hard to tell how many people
Speaker 2: have died hyperventilating in water, right, like, yeah, yeah, it
Speaker 2: died swimming and free diving often.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's hard to know the exact potential body count.
Speaker 1: I think there are something like fourteen or fifteen people
Speaker 1: alleged in lawsuits against Hoff's organization. Currently you'll hear numbers
Speaker 1: between like twelve and fifteen. We're gonna read one more story,
Speaker 1: but first, you know what never gets anyone killed, James.
Speaker 2: I don't think we can safely say that, well it
Speaker 2: dick pills again, because they've got a they've got a
Speaker 2: body count.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, and you call it living if you
Speaker 1: don't have dick pills, that's.
Speaker 2: A good question, you know, you got to sometimes it's
Speaker 2: better to have lived the days that you did have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is why again, go to the nearest
Speaker 1: truck stop, buy every pill they have and just mix
Speaker 1: them with like some ever clear and some some some
Speaker 1: high sea.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: See what happens to see. Yeah, you'll you'll learn a
Speaker 1: lesson about yourself or someone else will. Yes, and someone
Speaker 1: will learn a lesson one hope, Yeah learned. Yeah, you'll
Speaker 1: contribute to humanity's knowledge.
Speaker 2: Here's ads. We're back.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to read one other story of an
Speaker 1: alleged whim Hoff training victim. And this is from US
Speaker 1: Scott Carney's article on Labor Day. In twenty nineteen, Andrew Encinas,
Speaker 1: a twenty seven year old social media entrepreneur, shuttled back
Speaker 1: and forth between his new office to set up his
Speaker 1: desk with a fleet of new computer monitors and the
Speaker 1: party at his brother's house in Anaheim Hills, California. Like
Speaker 1: his business Gary Vaynerchuk in Cinas thrived on the challenge
Speaker 1: of starting a new business and constantly looked for ways
Speaker 1: to optimize his performance. His favorite technique for dealing with
Speaker 1: stress was a breathwork in ice immersion protocol called the
Speaker 1: whim Hoff method. Around six point thirty in the evening,
Speaker 1: and Sinus made his last trip back from the office.
Speaker 1: His brother Adam invited him in for ice cream in
Speaker 1: a football game on TV. Sure, he said, but first
Speaker 1: I want to do my whim Hoff in the pool.
Speaker 1: He asked to borrow a pair of swim trunks. This
Speaker 1: wasn't unusual. Over the years in Scenus had learned that
Speaker 1: the wim Hoff method had an almost miraculous calming effect
Speaker 1: on his nervous system. He watched videos of Hoff swimming
Speaker 1: under Arctic sea ice and teaching influential social media stars
Speaker 1: to hyperventilate to the point of passing out in SNAs.
Speaker 1: Preferred to practice alone and often did four or five
Speaker 1: rounds of breathing in a single day. Video of Andrew
Speaker 1: doing the breath work in the water a few months
Speaker 1: earlier focused on the peaceful expression on his face. He
Speaker 1: texted his friends that the method works really well in
Speaker 1: the cold. A few minutes after Andrew went in the pool,
Speaker 1: Adam started to wonder when he would finish up and
Speaker 1: rejoin the family. Then, according to the coroner's port report
Speaker 1: filled in Los Angeles County, at the party, noticed Andrew
Speaker 1: appeared to be sleeping in the shallow end of the pool.
Speaker 1: Adam ran outside to find his brother in a meditative
Speaker 1: position underwater, with his hands clasped in front of his
Speaker 1: chest and unresponsive. Adam dragged Andrew out of the water
Speaker 1: and performed CPR to get his heart beating again, but
Speaker 1: when we got to the hospital there was no brain activity.
Speaker 1: He was already a goner, says Adam and Cinas. So
Speaker 1: don't do this stuff, Yeah, do not do folks, be
Speaker 1: very careful. Don't do it in anywhere near water. If
Speaker 1: you're going to experience with like these TUMO breathing techniques,
Speaker 1: do them nowhere near water and put a lot of
Speaker 1: time in between doing them and getting in the water.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, don't even do them, like if you said,
Speaker 2: if you scuba dive, right, like, you shouldn't be doing
Speaker 2: any of this within the COVID days of scuba diving.
Speaker 1: No care, take care. So Wim does warn on his
Speaker 1: site and in videos these two techniques, the breathing in
Speaker 1: the cold water immersion, which make up the majority of
Speaker 1: his teachings, should never be combined. But he also shows
Speaker 1: off video of himself submerged in water or swimming constantly,
Speaker 1: and both water and g Tomo breathing are key components
Speaker 1: of his stick. This is a big part of why
Speaker 1: reputable scientists and quasi reputable reporters like Scott have backed away.
Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of respect for Carney after
Speaker 1: the role he played granting credibility to Hoff, but I
Speaker 1: will note that his article on the man is about
Speaker 1: as complete a buddle of him as you are going
Speaker 1: to find, and it does a good job of showing
Speaker 1: how Hoff's claims that Interfier warns students away from mixing
Speaker 1: techniques together do not hold well water. And I'm going
Speaker 1: to quote from that article again. Hoff's website and YouTube
Speaker 1: videos do in fact include prominent warnings against performing the
Speaker 1: breathing method and water. One typical example, a YouTube video
Speaker 1: that gives Hoff's basic breeding instructions and has sixty six
Speaker 1: million views, includes this warning in its description exclamation point
Speaker 1: exclamation point. Don't do the breathing exercises in a swimming
Speaker 1: pool before going underwater, beneath the shower, or piloting any vehicle.
Speaker 1: Always practice sitting or lying down in a safe environment.
Speaker 1: And Hamhoff, Wimhoff's son and the CEO of Interfire, is
Speaker 1: adamant over email well wim Hoff doesn't teach hyperventilation techniques.
Speaker 1: Within the wim Hoff method, we never teach people to
Speaker 1: do our specific breathing exercises before submerging in water. We
Speaker 1: are very careful and protective in teaching people the wim
Speaker 1: Hoff methods so they practice in a safe environment now,
Speaker 1: even in places where warnings exist, Hoff simultaneously teaches a
Speaker 1: veritable recipe for blacking out in water. In numerous instances,
Speaker 1: he conflates water work and breathwork and abandons safety protocols
Speaker 1: that he explicitly states are necessary. According to a wim
Speaker 1: Hoff Method instructor, the training center that Intererfire operates in
Speaker 1: Poland lacks even basic safety gear like AEDs in case
Speaker 1: someone's heart stops. During his intensive workshops, the disconnect between
Speaker 1: what the Hoff organization says and its official capacity and
Speaker 1: the actual teachings Hoffs gives can be jarring. Take, for instance,
Speaker 1: the eighth week of his ninety nine dollars class ten
Speaker 1: week video course. After almost two months of training and
Speaker 1: breathwork and cold exposure, which work up from very mild
Speaker 1: practices to ever more intense variations, wim Hoff stands in
Speaker 1: front of an icy waterfall, alongside an eager, shirtless student
Speaker 1: and gives some simple instructions. Go into the water, he
Speaker 1: says in the video, keep go on with the breathing,
Speaker 1: keep on being focused. Then you sit, then you immersed focused,
Speaker 1: and you stay in the water. Hoff gives similar sets
Speaker 1: of instructions various ways three times over the course of
Speaker 1: the lesson, ultimately hyperventilating in his own characteristic way and
Speaker 1: then dunking his own head under the water and staying
Speaker 1: for about a minute. A strange disclaimer in the comet
Speaker 1: section next to the video appears to contradict what Hoff
Speaker 1: is doing on screen. It reads the guy in the
Speaker 1: video was guided by whim to learn to deal with
Speaker 1: the cold. He's not doing the breathing retention and then
Speaker 1: putting his head under the water. At the very least,
Speaker 1: the juxtaposition between the written warning and Hoff's own words
Speaker 1: is confusing. At worst, it's a dramatic acknowledgment of the
Speaker 1: sort of negligence that could get someone killed. And that's
Speaker 1: the whim Hoff story. James magnificent. Yeah, wonderful stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: can'd be doing this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, good times that it's just so like I get,
Speaker 2: it's such a sad like condemnation of this whole industry,
Speaker 2: Like here's a guy I will teach you how to
Speaker 2: breathe and people have paid for that, and sadly people
Speaker 2: have died. Yeah, it does. It's very calming. I like
Speaker 2: to free dive. It is the closest. Yeah, I just
Speaker 2: do a bit of wim Hoffing and then off like that.
Speaker 2: It's the closest human beings going to get to flying,
Speaker 2: I think, But no, I do not wim hoff It
Speaker 2: is bad if it's like a joke. It's a standing joke.
Speaker 2: If you go free diving with someone new for the
Speaker 2: first time, like go out there and you still go
Speaker 2: it just wants a dude look at you, like like
Speaker 2: what if I got myself in for?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: So, James, I wanted to end by reading a couple
Speaker 1: of little things I found in this listicle about wim Hoffs,
Speaker 1: because there's some fun ones in here.
Speaker 2: Wait.
Speaker 1: Number one is the claim that wim learned to control
Speaker 1: his heart rate in university. Quote and it wasn't even
Speaker 1: part of his curriculum. Here's a quote from this very
Speaker 1: reputable article, James. When the Reddit user futbucker twenty four four.
Speaker 2: Asked whim.
Speaker 1: Asked Whim when he learned to control his heart rate.
Speaker 1: Whim replied, in university by measurement. Can you picture it?
Speaker 1: When most students were.
Speaker 2: Desperately trying to make their way through an economics textbook
Speaker 2: or recover from a grueling hangover, Wim was spending his
Speaker 2: days learning to control his heart rate. Very impressive.
Speaker 1: Fut futbucker or butt fut bucker, Yeah bucker, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you for that.
Speaker 2: Question.
Speaker 1: Number thirteen is Wim doesn't need psychedelics because he can
Speaker 1: trigger his own dmd gland. In Whim's ama, he was asked, Hi, Wim,
Speaker 1: do you or have you ever used any kind of
Speaker 1: drug to find deeper consciousness in order to control your
Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system. His response, No, not at all. I
Speaker 1: can trigger my own DMT or hormone driven from the
Speaker 1: pineal gland. I know how to get there and can
Speaker 1: do that all the time. You have better control over
Speaker 1: the hormonal system. You don't need drugs to be drugged
Speaker 1: out by yourself in a natural way. Fuck me, Whim,
Speaker 1: I will take d MT with you, and I guarantee
Speaker 1: it will fuck you up in a way that you
Speaker 1: cannot fuck yourself up.
Speaker 2: I will promise you that, my friend, Well, where do
Speaker 2: you think the DMT comes from? But you go to
Speaker 2: obviously from the gland. That's right, That's how I get it,
Speaker 2: from the gland of a Dutchman. Yeah, get kill a
Speaker 2: Dutchman instead. Much more ethical than a giraffe. There's plenty
Speaker 2: a Dutchman. Yep, they're not a rare species. So yeah,
Speaker 2: no shortage. Had the harvested d MT from the d
Speaker 2: stands for Dutch, Yeah, yeah, M stands for man. I
Speaker 2: don't know what the stands for. Yeah, I do. I
Speaker 2: hate the article. Author of that stupid article, John Brooks.
Speaker 2: I do want to read you his bio, even though
Speaker 2: it's a little bit of an aside. John Brooks is
Speaker 2: a stoicism teacher and crucially practitioner. His stoic meditations have
Speaker 2: accumulated thousands of listens, and he has created his own
Speaker 2: stoic training program from modern day Stoics. Well, it's one
Speaker 2: of the things about stow this is they really thrive
Speaker 2: on how many people download their podcast. Very stoic. Nothing
Speaker 2: more stoic than noting your thousands of listeners. You're getting
Speaker 2: to add revenue.
Speaker 1: God, and I've never seen stoic use more in a
Speaker 1: sentence three times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we got to get the seo up. It's another
Speaker 2: big element of stoicism.
Speaker 1: It's one of those things like stoicism. You want to
Speaker 1: read like ancient Greek stoics perfectly fine. People who talk
Speaker 1: about being stoics one hundred percent of the time very
Speaker 1: frustrating human gests.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's just like people who talk about reading
Speaker 2: infinite jest. Yes, cos. Yeah.
Speaker 1: For people who will like call themselves utilitarians, like, oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a bad end to you.
Speaker 1: That is you are You are not talking about the
Speaker 1: actual attempt to determine the greatest good for the greatest
Speaker 1: number of people. You are trying to justify cheating on
Speaker 1: your girlfriend. Is that is what's going on in this story?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and hopefully someone plays football with your head too
Speaker 2: as it did. Yeah, anyway, James, anything to plug well
Speaker 2: after that, Buddy, I not holding your breath underwater?
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't hold your breath under water. Don't hyperventilate, you know, well,
Speaker 1: you can hold your breath underwater sometimes if you do
Speaker 1: it the right way.
Speaker 2: Fast, sensible. Yeah, there's a Fena Feinae office, one Addie Office,
Speaker 2: one f Fi offer one free diving glasses. You can
Speaker 2: take them. Yeah, what else do I have to plug? Yes?
Speaker 2: I have a book already and you can find it
Speaker 2: by going to the library and saying this, dude, James
Speaker 2: stat has written a book. It's called The Popular Front
Speaker 2: of nineteen thirty six Popular Olympics. And they will order
Speaker 2: it for you and you will have to pay and yeah,
Speaker 2: and it could happen here. You can hear. In a
Speaker 2: few weeks I will do a podcast which involves me
Speaker 2: talking about holding my breath underwater in a non fatal way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and going to the Marshall Islands to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you can find me when I eventually have my
Speaker 1: fist fight with whim half.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in Mark Zuckerbug's garden. In Mark Zuckerberg's garden.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I bet on you, Robert, thank you. Yeah, we all are.
Speaker 2: I betting on malaria to be the real Yeah.
Speaker 1: That might be if he gets infected. You know that
Speaker 1: might be me too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 2: I've seen how you deal with someone who's in the
Speaker 2: in the grips of gastro intestinal distress. Robert, I think
Speaker 2: you could. Yeah, Robert and I have had some times.
Speaker 2: You should have bought that second charm James, Yeah, I
Speaker 2: should have done, man. I didn't have enough meet your
Speaker 2: rights on me that day as a result. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: was funny. Are not familiar. Robert and I went on
Speaker 2: a reporting trip to Thailand to cover the civil war.
Speaker 1: After after like two weeks, I was like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get us a nice night at a
Speaker 1: very nice hotel. I'm already it in Bangkok. You know,
Speaker 1: we'll have like a little bit of luxury on our
Speaker 1: way out. James gets sick on the way in and
Speaker 1: just hurls in the park warking lot of one of
Speaker 1: the nicest hotels, and Banker and you.
Speaker 4: Both, you both were separately messaging me about.
Speaker 2: It, and it was so funny. It was like chances like,
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm gonna diet. Robert's like, he fucking
Speaker 2: did it. He made it. It was the nicest hotel.
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of him.
Speaker 3: It was beautiful.
Speaker 2: An analogy in waiting for them to give us our roof,
Speaker 2: it was so funny. I got it. I'll give it
Speaker 2: up to them.
Speaker 1: You know, the Lamridian staff must have seen some ship
Speaker 1: because they didn't not.
Speaker 2: And then I think the best part of this was
Speaker 2: that Robbert had thought we got a sweet with two
Speaker 2: rooms in fact, in fact, it was one big room
Speaker 2: with a frosted glass bathroom. So you got to watch
Speaker 2: my shadow. That's Harmon had a good time. Yeah. Shout
Speaker 2: out to the old lady who gave me a shopping
Speaker 2: bag because I filled up all the vomit bags on
Speaker 2: the flight. Yeah right, Yeah. Things we do for journalism,
Speaker 2: The things we do for journalism anyway, like and subscribe. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you can go to cooler Zone Media to get this
Speaker 2: without ads. You can buy my book After the Revolution.
Speaker 2: It's wherever books are, or you can get it free
Speaker 2: at a library, or you can find it free at
Speaker 2: atrbook dot com.
Speaker 1: Whatever. Live your life, Motherfuckers.
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: For more from cool Zone
Speaker 4: Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us
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